e e e e e e e e he gave me the thumbs so let's turn on our mics make sure I got mine on all right thank you it is 5:15 Let's uh call the Mee in order roll call please council member Cole here council member Wong here council member nordby here council member schwe absent mayor mongi here thank you very much get a motion to adopt the agenda please so moved so moved council member Cole second second council member Wong all those in favor say I I I thank you topics thank you mayor we have one topic up on the docket tonight and that is the community center next steps and we'll turn that over to finance director Dan Winnick evening mayor evening mayor City Council Members um we're um back one more time um to discuss uh the commun Center um next steps and just kind of as a protocol what we've done is that just kind of a reminder that each Workshop will on the community center will follow the format that will give us staff presentations city council questions and answers um if there's time for public comments um and then we'll talk about the next agenda and have a city council uh wrap up um this is kind of what we've agreed to as our next steps um for information to gather and present and discuss and as you can see with the check marks we've gone through um all of the clarification on the grant terms we actually did that again um at our last meeting um we had the library here to present um uh their program and their services that they provide to the city um we did an RFI we reviewed the results of the RFI and um now we're kind of at the step uh from our last Workshop to uh develop an RFP um which there is a draft that is attached um to the document um and um you can see kind of some of the next steps and information that we've uh had agreed on to to look at um at this meeting tonight it's kind of going to be a recap of what staff has put together and presented in the past um and uh kind of answer some of the questions there were two components um that were asked of our last meeting and one was of the W facility analysis uh to kind of look at those on a perear basis so there's kind of a I took their W report and I put it into a format where they called them I think priority one two threes and fours um and there's uh from uh Z to two years two to five and so forth and we'll get to that next we're going to review the operating budget the operating budget was never appropriately ever brought in front of the city for any discussion it came out in a newsletter so we're going to kind of go over that today and again it is just an estimate um but I think it kind of shows at least to me it shows um some indications of of if the city council decides to move forward with the community center that there's some parameters in which we need to agree to um to make it what I look at as a go or no-o decision um then we're going to review um the importance of the library library from the presentation that was given from Pang bang who is now uh the director of the Ramsey County Libraries um we're going to review the results again of the RFI for the Partnerships at the community center um we're going to touch on a review of the state Grant terms um of what uh we've learned from that and then um again I don't know what has been presented um it hasn't been presented in my time of of having discussions with the community center but there were some other options that were developed by wal back in uh 2022 um and there's uh option A B and C and we'll kind of touch on those and then kind of do a recap of what I think we've learned and at least from the discussions that city council has had so far to date on the community center and then there um is the review of the feasibility study um and that is also attached in your packet so the first piece that we're looking at is the W facility analysis um these uh these numbers and the categories are coming from the report that was presented um by wal um back probably a couple of months ago months ago you can see that they're in the priority one two three and four uh two to uh 0 to two years 2 to 5 6 to 10 within 10 years and then there's a category that said other they talk about um you know the categories of accessibility exterior interior site um mechanical system and electrical system and comes to a total that's where that $7.3 million that has been discussed in the past um that's where those numbers come um and I know uh council member Wong had wanted to see um it kind of broken out by the years so I I'm going to stop after every slide to give city council an opportunity to ask any questions or to kind of discuss um the information but this was requested uh in our last Workshop any questions any comments on this are you are you specifically asking about this slide at this moment you want us to yes please okay you know if there's any you know questions that are you know try to get them at the moment instead of trying to go you know at the end of the presentation sure yeah so the mechanical systems um my understanding is that the boiler had gone out and that was something that was replaced um in the last couple years year or so um is that included in that number or is that included elsewhere uh you would have to go into all the det I don't have a specific answer you'd have to go and look at the detail uh that W provided which is is a part of this attach to see if they have the boiler included or not um one of the components with then I can't answer the the the question on this that obviously if you look at the interior of the uh of the total for the interior of Wal facility of $356,000 and if you looked at the components that made up that interior um it's basically keeping the interior pretty much the same uh the bulk of that was actually I think for the gym floor repair uh the rest of it was really just some sort of cosmetic changes there was a couple of ADA um changes that needed to be made um it was not configurations of new walls or anything so depending on whatever type of programming went into that facility there would be um there could potentially be increased costs for the interior of the facility the reason why I bring that up is because once you start to change walls on that it does have an impact on your HVAC system um so I can't answer the question whether the boiler that size in that facility would be able to handle if there was a if there was a a a substantial change to the interior and the demand um for heating and cooling within that facility is the boiler that was replaced in kind that we recently did would that be adequate to handle the facility as it moved into the future that would be something that W would have to get back to us on okay so yeah I guess my question mostly was if if the boiler was included in in the priority list um so it it it doesn't necessarily explicitly say um so it would change the calculations if that were the case is that my understanding if I could add um so there were actually two boilers that were replaced in there and that total cost was $30,000 for that replacement um I know this process started before those were replaced so I don't know if it was put in there but um in looking at the total of almost 5 million of the 30,000 it would have made a little bit of a difference but not a lot for the units themselves I guess well we can find that out though for sure yeah I think that would be fair to find out um whether we would need to um make changes to those those totals sure question I had too when it came to the elevator I know we've had a failure at the elevator is that correct is it catastrophic as far as compared to I mean would that be was it just normal maintenance maybe for the thing but now it sounds like there's something a little more serious we were hoping that it was normal maintenance there was a packing that is around the rod that raises and lowers the elevator itself um we've had one company tell us that they think that the rod itself needs to be replaced I believe that total cost was about 30,000 35,000 34,000 or 40,000 so um but we have another company that said it could actually just be the packing around that Rod that raises it up and down because it was really hard I guess and it's not supposed to be that hard so it could be a more simple fix but um we were kind of waiting to see Direction before we dumped a very large amount of money into the elevator of where we were going to go okay and I think before that there was discussion that there was no work on the interior um but it seems like there is work being done on the interior I think that was stated last time it minimal but they were one was a trip Hazard going in from uh the kind of the lobby area into the gymnasium there was tin that was sticking up that could be cut on that was fixed by our Public Works um there was also Holes in the Floor of the gymnasium that were the old Nets poles used to go into the ground so we got cover plates for that and then the last item was we were looking into the uh elevator and now with the large cost we were just apprehensive to dump that kind of money into it not knowing for sure which direction we're going to go moving forward so it it appears to me that between priority one priority two so that's years0 to two and two to 5 years that the 5.3 million dollars we're receiving from the state and the federal government cover those first six years essentially I mean I'm not going to disagree with that I mean based upon the totals um the question then would be um that would come back would be where would the approximate $1.7 million for priority three and priority uh four come from yeah yeah and I think that's something we had discussed in regards to um having a consultant kind of or uh a specialist kind of figure out what what that could be the those Partnerships and and whatnot um I think that helps inform it that's my understanding is is why we need to be seeking um and why we are putting out an RFP and just give me a second I just want to see what wal had in detail for the interior go down interior yeah but detail to that there we go down a little bit further I keep going yeah so of the W interior of that total $356,000 amount $272,800 is uh remove existing gym floor and replace with new channel floor system um the rest of the items are that are on there are relatively small um for example remove and replace damage carpet tiles with carpet tiles at 203 office uh $900 $900 for the same thing in office 204 da da da what is really showing is that there's nothing extensively done in the interior except for that gym floor um so again the comment that I said prior is that if there were depending on the program or the use of the facility moving forward if there's going to be extensive interior that's not included in it in the study at all and and normally you know if you're looking at whether it's leasing space or doing space you're looking at $30 to $40 a square foot for tenant improvements I did a lot of project management in a prior life and of course we have the operation of it for that you know as far as the city for the building itself if there's any other things that come with it keeping it clean and and and that'll come up in our operational discussion that'll be coming next any other questions on this before we we move on no okay I I do I I Dan thank you for putting this in here um directionally I get it um they're they're kind of numbers and spaces um if the gymnasium goes in we don't have need $200,000 if boilers have already been replaced but we need to we need to fix the uh the elevator they kind of they kind of set each other off um the the thing that I take a look at on here first is the funding that's been made available to us covers Us from zero to the first five years we have six years before we have to start we have six years we're able to plan for the next round of the $1.7 million that we talk to as a potential deficit um so it's not necessarily yes we need to figure it out but it's not an urgency it's not like the money needs to come out of this budgeting period um I'll have a tendency to kind of agree and disagree with that and here's the reason why I say that hopefully by the next city council meeting we'll have the completed uh facility assessment on all of our facilities um I've been stating for quite some time that what's included in our CIP is Wolly um underestimated and and non non-inclusive so hopefully this uh facility assessment that we get in our facilities will show a true picture of what it's what it's going to cost in time of all of our facilities no different than how we we've been looking at our 10year um Financial plans whether it's uh the electric fund water fund uh the general fund so forth um and more in the Enterprise funds when we look at our rates um and and council member Cole you saw this very clearly that you know if we have a big gotcha coming out here that we need to fund and we wait till that year to fund it it's going to be such a huge increase so we need to ratchet up those increases as time moves on no different than the concept that the city council approved last year in putting 2% um for our streets um to start helping with that infrastructure so we could wait we could wait till year six and then increase something to the tune of 15% or we ratchet it up 2% so it does it so you're right but I think the planning process needs to start sooner than later the point that I'm making is that we have time through funding through grants through other other things should the city be preparing for it yes but we also have according if we go off of w we have six years in which we we have to start to collect those funds to get things done that's all I had on on this slide we and and by the way everything moves around I mean there could yeah there could be something else that we don't even plan on Could Happen mhm yeah just a number of years to is estimate you never know when something's going to go too you know hopefully that uh numbers are right as far as how long things last if there's no more questions we'll move on to the next slide uh and this was an estimate um based on a number of assumptions U for operating um the facility if the city were to run the programming component to it obviously the biggest component that you're going to see there is the wages taxes and benefits um for you know a one uh program manager um two um full-time and two part-time administrative staff and some overtime because the hours of operation would be from Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Saturday and Sunday 8:00 a.m. to 5: p.m. that's our assumptions that we um had run this on you can see the different categories um most of them are all based on actual costs um that have been um you know uh either historical data or comparison like in the janitorial because the facility hasn't been um run totally wide open the janitorial cost that we've had for the community center primarily just for the library so we're utilizing the uh 2023 three um actuals for the city hall um which is comparable um to some degree um but those are kind of the estimates that are showing there and then also we've got a footnote that you know um based upon a state Master contract for a contracted guard and that's an unarmed guard um it would be um $30 per hour so for those hours if you were to have a security person it would be um you know an additional cost to the operation again these are are assumptions that uh We've made but it was trying to get us some some you know indication of where we're at to me what does this tell it it says that if we were to operate this ourselves um that 886 th000 or somewhere in that ballpark would be something that would be unattainable for the city um I don't believe that we would end up getting enough grants and revenue to cover that and that would be quite a significant um cost to the res as far as a levy increase to be able to support the the community center um so to me one of the parameters that it kind of says is that we have to find partners and that's what we've been trying to do and that's what we did with the RFI um we didn't get um you know too much results um off of that RFI but I think that's something that city council has at least expressed um that there's the understanding that we really do need to have the program if at least what I heard last Workshop was that this community center um if it were to move forward has to have a minimum impact on our residents I a quote from one of the council members was that we're starting to tax um our residents out of our community um so this would have an impact onto that so to me that's all that this is really showing us is that we really do to make this a viable option is that we need to have a partner who's going to be running our programs no different than the library today um we don't provide the programming we provide the space um all of the programming is done by the Ramsey County Library so any questions or thoughts on on this can you speak a little bit to the um five different positions you had mentioned that it was based off of the hours of operations is that correct correct um okay and so for administration it says $22,000 per position um that's admin finance and HR indirect allocation is that 10,000 or sorry $2,000 per position added to other operating cost that we do um it's added to all of our Enterprises it's added to the HRA the Eda and it's in the form of transfer um these categories are building owners management association categories and so Administration is the category that it falls under underneath but it's we yes we do transfer from each one of those Enterprise funds in the the H Eda uh Dan thank you for putting this together um the last line on here am I correct in that unless we sell the building that should be something we're planning for regardless of the outcome I'm I'm sorry what the last line the the 150,000 a year um capital replacement unless we sell the building No Matter What Becomes of that building that should be something the city is planning for correct yeah I I mean a rule of thumb in the industry is that you should be putting one and a half to two and a half% um of your replacement value um away on an annual basis and that's really to take I mean a roof has a useful life of 20 to 25 years so you should be accumulating the funds to be able to take it at the time that it needs to replace again that's the purpose of what we put our Capital Improvement plans together and our financial plans and and everything so I'm just using a $6 million um if I were to really use one and a half to two and a half% of of the replacement value that wal had had on there um I believe the range would actually be 243,000 to 45 on an annual basis I I just wanted to make sure that my thinking was correct that that particular line didn't tie it to becoming Community Center that line ties it to being owned by the city whatever that building is it it would be dedicated to the community center is how it should be yes dedicated to that building yes yeah yes so that would be averaging about $150,000 per year in our Capital Improvement plan that's what we would hope yes that's the situation in which okay and so given that it would allow us that six years to come up with figuring out a plan for $150,000 per year in the capital Improvement plan correct and the appropriate way to do that is to have a complete facility assessment done so you know what is coming up year for year and hopefully that 150 is adequate for that as for the utilities we often talk about the fiber optics and the expense of moving it or what have you um obviously the library operates there as well so of the $67,000 on average over the last 3 years for the utility cost does that also include the fiber optics that I cannot answer Brian do you I don't know if that was ever broken out for them or not um just because we knew that there was no rent for them for the contract that we had in place so I don't know if it was ever figured out for that so the fiber objects does it utilize electricity and that's a part of that bill that comes through there for the community center sure does so then the answer would be no it probably isn't broken out to my knowledge but it would likely be included in that figure I would say yeah it would more than likely yes thank other questions I do when I was just waiting oh Dan first off thank you for putting this together it's very detailed it calls it basically breaks almost everything out that we could think of to to run it um my own opinion I've usew this is is the most that it could cost anybody um to to run it I mean I could go in here and take a look um janitorial services you said the 455 was basically just to clean the library no okay um and thank you I misunderstood yeah no what what I said is that if you were to look in the community center today all we're paying for is the library so that's why we utilize the 2023 City Hall cost it be a little bit more representative of it that's a lot of M to clean Library yeah thank you um I did have it fixed 344 it6 $6,700 I'm assuming that's a foot in Insurance what is that um all of our departments are charged for IT services and they're charged per F full-time employee they're charged 6,700 um for part-time employee they're charged 3,900 uh we have an internal service fund um and then um Insurance we're estimating it to be about 6,500 on an annual basis so what is it information technology so where's the $6,700 67 per person for like Metro inet um all of our computers computer replacement so that's based off of the five positions that are there yes thank you I was I was yeah so if you were to take you know three positions at 6700 that's 20,100 if you take two at 39 it's 78 add the 6500 and you'll come to the 344 thank you I just I couldn't yeah could it was it to me and it's like what do you mean per person I had never broken out so thank you that's how it's being allocated right now through the internal service fund um and I do like the fact how you break everything out from you know mowing snow removal parking allot irrigation Etc um as well as you you know the the capital um replacement funds when we look at Casey when we look at howy when we look at this building do we break it out the exact same way or is or is this just something that you that's been set up separately to take a to take a look um no those haven't been set up um to look at that way um they certainly could um again in a prior life that I lived um this is how I would do everything because we'd always compare everything to Bulma um standards um to to know if we were running a facility um you know how efficient we were running a facility kind of benchmarks um to do it so these are the the categories that they utilize and so um it's very helpful because you can go out to a number of resources and find out what costs are per square foot um and then you can kind of do an estimate um to be able to build a budget and obviously we're building a bu budget pretty much from scratch for this you know so yeah so the format actually works well so some of these to me are additives we are are the the snow removal the mowing parking lot irrigation those are already being covered by what's exists today I'm not going to necessarily disagree with with that it's a category we can definitely take the $9,600 off of that no and I'm not looking into it pick down I I again I just want to thank you for the detail I just want to make sure I've got Clarity so I appreciate it um are we doing a capital replacement fund on the current building that we sit in now uh the answer is absolutely no and that's why I've been pushing it for the time that I've been here that's why the importance of that Capital Improvement plan has been so significant so the day when I walk out hopefully I've got it set up and we've and we're getting very close to that and that's why this facility assessment is so critical that we're that we're going to see because I believe we are way way way away from where we need to be for funding um no different than you know the infrastructure on the streets um so that's kind of my thing that I've been kind of saying and hopefully fingers cross there to deliver us a draft here shortly and we'll be able to present something to city council at the next meeting because this building's what 20 close to 20 and so is the public works that's what got me really really scared yeah yeah yeah um yeah I I fully support doing that because it's scary to not have it because a lot of that is why we're in the situation we're in right now with the community center is that that nobody planned for 20 years down the road um we probably wouldn't be having these types of conversations if if we had done that so so thank you for for doing that and I look forward to having it being presented um but again same thing I look at a lot of these things on here as this is I don't want to called worst case scenario but this is this inculate Cates everything that could possibly be there with the exception of the catastrophic things that we hadn't planned for so the the number could dramatically come down depending on what you know how it staffed depending on how the budgets are taken a look at so the only point that I want to make is this is directional at my opinion what is potentially the hopefully the the highest possible scenario available um and I agree and that's why the comment that I said really the purpose of what this is showing is that we couldn't afford to do this at $886,000 and that what's the biggest line that you're going to see in there and that's your Staffing yep um so that means what it means we can't staff it to run the program of the facility we have to find that partner and predicated upon if if there were tenants if the building goes forward um you know in in the private sector the leases that I've entered into um there was a dollar amount per square foot set aside so it's not funded by the owner of the building it's funded by the tenant um you know so I I I take a look at some of those interior costs um utilities again some of those could potentially be would be funded by the tenant depending on how the lease read um you know there's there a lot of things so I just so I just view this as like the hopefully what could be the the cap yeah yeah now this operating bu budget does not necessarily have any I don't I would say it does not have tenant improvements to to give to a a tenant coming in um but there's different ways that you can structure any lease I think you're fully aware of of that um because you can yeah but um that's a different part of the discussion uh TP typically tenants do offer some sort of tenant Improvement um as part of their rental rate so if you go out and look um you know for suburbs and what rental rates are going for there usually is is some sort of amount in there it may not be adequate enough and the and the Le the uh le e has to pick up the rest of the tab I don't have any additional comments or questions thank you Dan I appreciate it can you expand a little bit on the other operating expenses it's just kind of for like miscellaneous I mean office supplies da da da different types of components that could be you know needed into you know any operating budget I mean if you look at any one of our operating budgets there's well there's usually a lot more than 7,300 um depending on the on the budget but it's just having bring something in there for for those other things that just don't NE necessarily fall into those categories and again these categories are Bulma categories um and there's you can see there's a footnote it references a a source that you know that I purchased to be able to get some sort of cost per square foot numbers um so we weren't doing this totally blind thank you if there's no other questions I'll move to the next um and again you know we had um the now current uh director of Ramsey County Libraries Pang bang here to kind of talk about and these are some of from her presentation um just some of the points that she had brought up the you know um you number of visits even though I believe that that 2023 is not necessarily totally representative of true annual because Maplewood was closed during that time and so we got additional traffic at the North St Paul Library um but uh the number of books that were checked out um computer hours um you know they had asked um you know people what are they looking for obviously there it was nice to see that they're looking for extended hours because they do have limited hours at at this site um looking for some additional space for teachers mentors tutors and so forth um we did meet with um uh Ramsey County's director of property management and Pang bang and I had a discussion with her and they are looking um at um additional square footage than they're currently at so they're looking at like a total of 5,000 square feet um part of the reasons is that they would end up um having um additional um kind of office um spaces so they could have more private meetings um I had mentioned this before Ramsey County has quite extensively Chang their model um and they're changing a lot of their facilities I think uh the Ramsey County government s East on the the river um is going to be going up to sale up for sale if it hasn't been up for sale they moved over to their Metro squares their um kind of their downtown service center um but they moved into more importantly kind of like a navigational um type of model um where they can go out and meet with the public at different locations um they've uh so um I know at the Maplewood Library there's hours that they actually publish that they'll have social workers and other services that'll be provided um and that's kind of the concept that they're looking at by having some additional Services put here at uh the north s St Paul Library by having these office private areas for for meetings and so forth any questions on this I do have one question um and I don't believe it's going to create a huge impact upon no matter what's decided here um do we have any way to verify or check their number of visits for for the amount of hours they're open this many visits are saying they average 29 people an hour they're open for every every single hour they're open I've been to the library and I'm I I I'm seeing a disconnect here on this data um that I'm having trouble explaining when she was here she indicated that they have a counter but that's the only way that they were able to so is it double counting we don't know that and that's she didn't have an answer for that but but averaging 30 people for every single hour they're open seems to me high and unattainable for anything I've seen there and we told her that when she was here all she to indicated was that it was just the counter that was counting those individuals and I I did send a message to Mar see if we could maybe get from July the half year so far just to kind of get an idea if it was anomaly or not it's my understanding they also host a lot of the schools in this area like some of the home schools and the alternative schools at the library they have like Library days so there's probably some foot traffic from classrooms that's that's what I remember from our conversation as well any other comments questions on this slide going once going twice um the next part just to kind of go over again the results of the RFI for Partnerships um we received one uh completed submitt from um hype volleyball club um it would generate um $6,000 per year in Revenue there were nine additional phone calls um again the uh a number of them were were volleyball um there was the ashin theater um there was a side Dan school um um Ramsey County's in their res additional space that was just mentioned um and so forth so um there's some interest yet from a formal um RFI component to it there was only one that was um a complete submitt onto that um any questions comments on this slide and so with the nine received phone calls for interest what was the communication and information from from those conversations were people expressing simply just interest or was there dialogue about what kind of programming they would offer financials Etc um it's my understanding that uh rfis can be reopened um and explored more I'm not sure if if folks were referred to the RFI Brian do you want to ask if I got from them were some were just individuals looking for time to use as the volleyball group some were looking to possibly even start up their own volleyball group um some of the questions that were asked as far as rent goes it was uncertain of you know what their full ask was going to be um some people had intentions of renting it a few nights and if it could get something to take off maybe even start a league um so it was kind of all over the place of anywhere from wanting to to do a lease whether it was a theater group or um here and there with volleyball use so looking at this list it it sounds like there's some missing components of what an RFI could like what what we have asked and then what information that we have currently we're missing some information from some of these groups and several of the groups referenced that they saw an ad for that information but called as opposed to turning in a packet actually did a tour of Ash as well we did over there many of these y he wanted um for the organizations that were initially engaged um with wal were they made aware of the RFI I think on the RFI it indicated all of the um who was contacted um and how the solicitation went out and I can't I don't know that off the top of my my head I know that you had given some suggestions and that were incorporated into you know the communication I don't think anybody walked down 7th Avenue again and went back into the same stores from because I think that first walk of downtown was prior to the RFI going out so I don't know that that was put back out to all of them individually you know any other questions on this comments um yeah I just think for for the RFI that there's there's a lot more information that uh that would be needed from our partners and potential partners and those that have Express partnership in the that we've previously engaged with um yeah that's just something I I really think that we need more information on that we we we would need to make a decision on whether a partnership or whose Partnerships are make this a viable option I absolutely agree with that um the problem is we didn't get that results when we went went out and advertised and and did that but I absolutely agree that yeah we need more information because a partnership is the only way this this this is actually going to work and have a a minimum impact on our residents so yeah I think like aside from you know uh maybe posting at once that this would could be an opportunity for us to uh open it and engage a little bit more I'm not sure the capacity of of Staff um to do all of this um because there's nine here but then there's 20 others that have been engaged in the past um any other questions or comments um and then the state Grant terms um you know $4.5 million the Grant I think uh last Workshop I think everybody was agreed on that you know um they were comfortable with the 25 years um there's uh still uncertainty of the outcome if the city defaults I asked the question got a response um about a week later that basically said he had talked to somebody else in the office and they said to talk to our City attorney um so um didn't give uh much clarification or Comfort um to me um and then um at this time it must be used for the current facility and approved um the community Multicultural Outreach Center um that's what we know I do want to bring to everybody's attention and part of the reason why I asked about uh the default is because um in this grant boiler plate um it talks about the remedy if there's a default um and it talks in section 2.06 B um basically that the state can um demand um the grant recipient to um you know basically return the funds um again it doesn't talk about if it's after a number of years da da you know is it prated and so forth um obviously um there's a section that's below below there that says if the and I'll read what it says it says if the grant recipient does not repay any portion of the amount specified under that section 2.06 B within 30 days of Demand by either the state entity or the to by this either State entity or the budget then such amount May unless precluded by law be taken off or offset against any AIDS or any monies that the grant recipient is entitled to receive from the state of Minnesota so if we were given 30-day notice we'd have a very difficult time to turn around and get $4.5 million together um but on an annual basis you know they could for the next couple of years they could take away our local government Aid um I believe they can take away both our police and fire Aid and then they would be able to take our Street Maintenance Aid right now those accumulate to about 2 million a little over $2 million um that we utilize within our our budgets um you know I know I know there's I know one of the council members always said can you translate that into kind of a what would that be as a levy impact that would be like a 27% Levy increase to cover that $2 million loss in our in our budgets so it's just something to be aware of and that's where my concern of that default needed to be clarified and again we didn't get much of an answer from from the state on that from I clarify I was not comfortable with the 25 years you said we were comfortable oh sure so I st I wasn't okay just want to be on the record on that I also wasn't here so you know okay group all right understand take that back thank you I'm just sure any other questions on this thanks for digging looking into that and then again I mentioned earlier that there were some other options that um were um given by wal um and the option A was to demo the community center and keep the library intact um they did a very rough estimate on these and it would come to the tune of like $3.1 million to do that option b was to demo the entire Community Center relocate the library to um some existing space to be determined um that was a cost of 1.3 um and then uh option C was to demo the entire Community Center and construct a new library um that would be $48 million um this is estimates from 2022 this is all the um backup or anything that was given that's in the narrative that's below those options just for you know um trying to give all of the information that staff has received and in the options so uh you know there's definitely um different options that the city can look at if they decide not to move forward with the uh with the Grant and the community center um you know you know and if the city council desires to keep the library um as an amenity to the city um there's you know a possibility there's a property that's on the corner of Margaret and uh 7th Street that's a vacated uh building that's approximately 5,000 square ft um that I think the owner would be willing to to lease um for something that's pretty reasonable um so I mean there's options um not just in the community center and to me that's what this these options that they had run through uh back in 2022 kind of give an indication for the way in which I read this is actually to demo is more costly um to us as a city um if the Gap is 1.7 then a demo option A would be 3.1 million well there's two demo options the the first one was to demo everything except for the library which just just just because of how you would have to do that surgically right the cost goes way up so you would never do an option A sure and then option b there would be about a 500,000 or $400,000 difference in what we're looking at in terms of a gap and that's demo the entire Community Center relocate the library to an existing space and you had referenced a a a corner building that is a potential T um I guess does that cost also include that tenant rental uh that space because we don't own the building no so you know depending on which number you want to look at that $7.3 million figure and I'm just going to use it yes I know you can take the first six years of options and be at about the same amount of the grant but you're talking about the $1.7 million gap you also have to add on that there's going to be operational cost so we looked at the operation yes the high side was about $886,000 if you demo and you relocate the library your ongoing costs are only the the lease uh the lease is somewhere underneath I think it was about $46,000 a year um is that something that the city would have to pay forever and ever I would say no I would say that at some point in time again and that's going through the library lease you would have to have a discussion with Ramsey County on that but um at some point time um at least in the conversation that we had had um with the uh with the county they anticipate at some point in time um that they will end up having to pay lease even if they were in their current facility or in the current facility at the community center that dollar amount was never discussed um but uh $46,000 on approximately 5,000 square ft is a pretty reasonable um you know cost per square foot so um but obviously if you demo here it's less Capital than the 7.3 the 1.7 plus the operational costs are a lot less for the city even if the city had to pick up the full entire lease but again these are just other options that were posed sure yeah I'm just kind of uh trying to observe like just respond to what I'm seeing here um and then the 4.8 million option C would be demo the entire uh Community Center and then construct a new library obviously that is a really high cost as well it looks like $4.8 million there um and that's only retaining the the library in in all of these scenarios but the community center would be absent and so um that would only give us just the Library resources is that correct yeah that's correct okay and it says that these estimates are from 2022 so since we've had our conversation with W they've changed um the Deferred maintenance plan from about two 25 million to 7 um what we're looking at now are these reflective of inflation and all those other changes in the note says our estimates from 20202 so the answer would be no and again these were just to show that there were other options that were presented staff is delivering and trying to be as transparent as possible and giving you all the information that's out there that's all we're trying to do tonight yeah I I appreciate it very much I'm just trying to digest this and make sure that I'm understanding it correctly y any other questions comments on this those estimates you just went over um I I just got confused with the last statement where did they come from were they from wal or were they from an internal um City they were from wal that they you know email they gave to the city um actually they gave it back when John Stark was a city manager in 2022 thank you and again there's no detail as far as how they came up with those estimates and so so I mean there would be so many questions that would be asked on on any of these things yeah so what have we learned through this um can we pause just a minute sure move on um because your last comment was very valid we don't know what the details are that was those were a lot of my questions revolved around there does it does it cover cost of moving um you know the the the generator does it you know the all the fiber optics we don't we don't know if that's included in there or not my understanding is that those two items were because they always were aware of those two items that needed to be done so my only question um oops my computer just died um is option b if we could look at very similar to how the financials were put together with what could potentially be the highest liability um can we look at what that would look like um I'm assuming the library would probably want us to pay to to relocate their their stuff I would expect that there would potentially be a buildout in the in the property that would be moving into or the library be moving into I assume that there'd be a whole bunch back to my it question there'd be a whole bunch of it costs to move all their computers um and the lease if we could look at and then whatever other ancillary things you could come up with I would just be curious to know what that would roll to not necessarily knowing what the 1.3 encompasses other than dropping the building in grass seed I don't and we'd find that out too from W so that that would help me um it would help kind of just paint a better picture sure we can see what we can do on that one thanks Dan and we'll move to the next one um what have we learned um right now with that 7.3 million versus the 5.3 in in Grants that the Deferred maintenance on the community center cers higher than the grant funds um that to minimize the financial impacts on residents future programming operation of the community center will need to to be achieved through Partnerships and I think we I think that kind of proves out with what we've seen so far um I think the library plays an important role in our community um I think we've learned that the acceptance of the grant will increase Financial Risk to our community and part of it is if we don't get that answered as far as what constituted constitutes that default and what would be the repayment component back to um the state um if that event had occurred um and then um there are other options for the city to to consider um and you know those three options were there you know I've always looked at it from the standpoint of um from what we've seen on the you know from the results of the RFI and I'm not going to disagree that they're not fully conclusive um and that there's not more work that could be done to flush out and try to get more information but what we've been seeing is that the the um the gymnasium seems to be the bigger attraction of the area in the community center um but it doesn't generate much revenue um you've got yourself um a library um that is providing um programming that is very much underneath what uh the grant um application had given um so maybe it is that um we have we would end up having to get uh you know legislation to approve it but maybe it's it's that it's a whole different new facility someplace and it's a smaller square footage um you know um outside of the relocation cost of the fiber and the generator and so forth um if you were to look at a 10,000 ft facility you should probably be able to build that somewhere between $4 to $450 a square foot so you're looking at4 to $4.5 million which the grand funds would then end up covering obviously your operational cost on a 10,000 ft facility versus a 33,000 ft facility would be less also um so there's at the end of the day there's other options but all of that at the end of the day comes down to what is the city council's goal Envision of the programming component that they want Within within this city council or within this community center and that has not become clear to staff and that's part of what staff struggles with is what are we really looking for um as far as that and that's why there is um an estimate here of of or a draft of an RFP um and um definitely the city council can make the decision to um issue that um look at that so I'm going to kind of quickly move to that since we're at 617 um um I've got a couple of points I want to make on what have we learned um a potential friendly Amendment to the second to the last bullet point acceptance of this grant will increase acceptance of the grant may increase we don't know just to your point what it's going to be and the other bullet point that I would like to add is not accepting the grant causes of financial liability to the city as well anywhere from 1.3 to 4 whatever the dollar amount was million dollars we don't have an answer for those funds either duly noted thanks Dan um you asked for an estimate of a feasibility study this is a very rough estimate and I'll tell you how I got to it um was for forunate um I the RFP that's drafted a lot of is a lot of it is coming from a recently issued RFP for a feasibility study from the city of Hibbing Minnesota um which I think was very very well written and hopefully it hits on the components that uh city council is looking at um I contacted their director of Parks and Recreation um and um they're paying about $80,000 for their um uh feasibility study um they have uh a bigger facility that has ice rinks um which we don't have yet the services that are being identified are pretty much going to end up having to be done and it's not really um a balancing of the number of square feet that you're looking at you're still going to have to go and gather all the same information so I threw an estimate hopefully it would be less than that 880,000 somewhere in the range of 45 to $60,000 um is probably what this uh feasibility study would cost but we wouldn't know um the exact until after we went out for a formal RFP process on to it and and the draft is attached um just for sake of time at 69 if um if you have any comments or suggestions if you could send them um to me I can get them Incorporated and changed um and city council will have one more opportunity at the next city council meeting to see that final RFP before it goes out and actually to um make the decision if they want to issue it or not the RFP added after the initial packet was released no didn't see it no for proposal multi-purpose Community Center feasibility thank you I found it it was way underneath all the world stuff thank you I also want to give a shout out to Ava one of our newer employees who uh uh reviewed it for me and cleaned it up and made it look much better than I had it so thank you wonderful job one thing that I find um really uh important for us to consider um is absolutely the financial aspect and um the community impact the economic impacts of a community center um I think that's one thing um that's not yet captured but I'll sure share that in the scope of services but I just wanted to state that um we've not had that much conversation in general about what is the impact for our residents um not just in the short term but in the long term um and and um what the tradeoffs are there well thank you for your for your work I will look forward to reviewing more of this sending stuff your way thanks Dan appreciate it and the last part here um and then we do have a couple minutes if we want to give any time for the public to have any um um things um just because there's it hasn't been clear and the city councils have changed after the city council had made the decision to not sell the community center um the city we will be bringing two items um to the city council um next meeting one's to bring an item to the city council not to accept the grant um again if city council turns that down the next item will be to bring it to issue the RFP for a feasibility study um just to give you what our next steps will be um and then if we want to give any time for public comments sure do you have something I do please uh so next council meeting we're not going to have a full Council so it's not going to be fair to make a vote like that on the next one and then also a reminder that uh the first meeting in August is canceled because it's National Night Out so this will be the we're into the second meeting in August thank you anybody in public want to have a minute if not come on up you showed up come on elain Barton 2021 Burke Avenue East yeah I feel compelled to because you spent all that time and this is the first meeting now for a couple meetings that there's been time to even take any input from the public but I I mean the the one thing I'm left with um is kind of a wrapup comment the finance director made of the what they're looking for is a vision of the programming that the council feels the community members need is really the way I look at it as well um so I I certainly appreciate the concept of an RFP but to use the same generic language as was in the application I'm not certain that the results you're going to get won't be the same thing well you know maybe we'll do a volleyball court and a basketball is or some sports here but that doesn't get at the purpose as I see it the underlying purpose of the whole Grant application in the first place so I'd encourage you to somehow come up with some ideas on your own of what you're really specifically looking for if anything I did notice Banquet Center in the draft RFP which startled me because I thought where did that come from so again that's just my input thank you thank you appreciate it Lane you all right thanks again Dan appreciate it you're very welcome I thank you very much for your patience as went through all of that stuff um I'm off for the rest of the week so I want to wish everybody a very happy and safe Fourth of July thanks apprciate it appreciate it all right nothing else other business anything city manager we can call for ger nothing more appreciate it can I get a motion for adjournment please so move so move council member Norby second second council member Cole all those in favor say I I thank you all and uh see you in four minutes