happens if someone could let Vincent yeah Megan you want to let Vince in I do not see him okay um Jay are we ready we are ready Madam mayor thank you ladies and gentlemen it is 5 30 and I will call this regular work session of the Burnsville city council to order uh the clerk can um note that all city council members are present as soon as council member Workman he is somewhere waiting virtually to be brought into the main room but if the clerk can note that um he has on uh on the chat said that he was the he was present but I think he is right there now okay so ladies and gentlemen uh we're in a season of covet 19. and uh we are in a crisis mode so we have pivoted and become Innovative and creative and continuing serving the people of Burnsville so tonight's meeting like all of our past meetings since we went into uh the stay at home executive order are coming to you virtually all of our city council members and our staff are joining us all electronically members of the public may watch this meeting uh online at burnsvillemn.gov meeting or Comcast Channel 16 News um okay if people can mute and to and um you may also speak by joining us at zoom.us backslash join more information is available on the meeting website and in the council agenda packet and so please note that there's an audio delay if you are watching us on TV or online so if you speak please mute your video broadcast first now this is a work session and we're very informal and we go directly to the items on our agenda the first item on our agenda is Boulevard hardship Mowing and um uh presenting this evening is Jeff radrick uh radic our assistant Public Works director good evening Jeff welcome good evening mayor council members uh Boulevard hardship one is a follow-up from approximately a year ago uh where we staff was tasked with uh Gathering feedback from effective property owners uh next slide um I thought I'd spend a few slides just uh reviewing um what we do uh we have a Boulevard mowing crew and median mowing crew uh there are four types of boulevards uh we we mow three of them we Mall public boulevards we have Mo private boulevards with uh public purpose these are quite often properties uh that stretch over something like a drainage Pond or something like that uh where the house is separated from the boulevard so we mow the the private Boulevard in that case uh we do more single family residential hardships uh we'll get into that that's the majority of what this conversation is about uh and multi-family commercial and Industrial properties they have mowed their own since approximately 2009. um so we do not mow any multi-family commercial or industrial boulevards next slide uh so our definition of a hardship uh single family residential property that does not have direct access to their Boulevard as for maintenance purposes this is quite often uh due to a fence without Gates uh different terrain features that make it hard to access the boulevard we review each one of these independently currently there's 166 proper boulevards uh in the program that have residential hardships next slide uh this is an example of uh long fences without Gates put in usually by a developer uh and then we mow the Boulevard in front of there this one is on South Cross Drive uh next slide so this one is uh Nicollet Avenue uh where the uh we move the Boulevard and the proper Residential Properties are 10 to 20 feet uh below the grade and Nicollet Avenue uh for their for where they're uh ground level is uh so it's quite difficult for them uh to get up to the grade and quite often uh overgrown the trees uh both for uh slope stabilization and things like that so we moved all the boulevards along properties like this next slide uh this is just a little bit of uh what we consider poor Optics uh our residential hardship mowing uh of boulevards does create some core optics for us in the two attached Graphics there uh we mow everything in the red uh and the grayed out properties are the ones that have either a Terrain feature or usually a fence that uh does not allow them access to the boulevard so we mow behind them usually if the next property has access we do skip the one that has access and then we go on to another one that doesn't so it does create some poor optics for us uh but the the vast majority of what we're doing is trying to save a little bit of time uh it does save us Time by skipping the hardship or skipping the non-hardship partials uh even though on a singular basis it probably doesn't appear that we are saving any time on the mass quantity of doing basically five days a week of this uh or eight hours a day it does save us a considerable amount next slide uh so this gets us back to last work uh last May's work session uh where Council Direction was to gather feedback on two options uh either n Boulevard mowing hardships or continue to mow the um residential hardships and charge 125 dollars a year special assessment for that benefit to the property next slide uh we did probably what's typical uh public engagement on everything what we do we developed a website we did a direct mailing we had an open house before uh covet was a concern so we did a traditional open house and since that time we've been doing both phone and email kind of going back to traditional lines of communication to hook up with residents I had questions concerns next slide uh the results of in the website was an embedded uh online survey uh they had the option they had the two options laid out for them and then that open comment box uh we gathered about 50 responses between the online public survey and uh between talking in the open house and talking with residents individually approximately one-third of them prefer option one they'll mold their own Boulevard adjacent to their property about two-thirds uh would like option two which is where we charge the 125 annual assessment uh for the benefit of their property and approximately one half of the 50 comments uh provided provide open comp comments uh and I think I'll next slide I will theme those for you uh with the open comments usually revolved around were physical barriers uh getting us as staff to understand the physical barriers and sometimes the uh the personal barriers they have to get into their back Boulevard or Side Boulevard usually these are to mow that um then there the vast majority of them were ownership control and benefits uh implanted implanted properties the ownership of the boulevard is actually the cities um so they question if they don't have ownership of it they don't have control of it what's the what's the benefit to their property I think that's the largest one there was also a some safety concerns of usually These Are Back Boulevard to side boulevards that uh about a major roadway so their safety uh concerns if they were had to mow their own pull apart and then there was also a few uh previous interactions with uh city employees or council members where they were informed that they would never be uh responsible promoting uh the boulevard next slide uh Mooring Boulevard's does have some costs uh option one is fifteen thousand dollar savings um currently we we mow and we have uh employees that do um on our mowing crew and if we did not have to mow uh residential hardships it would equal about fifteen thousand dollars option two if we did charge a special assessment to the benefited properties uh it would be 166 properties at 125 a year would be twenty one thousand seven hundred fifty dollars uh that would be reimbursed to the city uh for that option too uh the difference between those two is the savings the straight cost uh the option option two has administrative uh fees associated with it to get to uh do a special assessment next slide that was quick rundown I am available for questions uh that was a word we're looking for direction on option one or option two uh or other further discussion uh councilmember Schultz your hand is up yes uh so if you could go back to the previous slide and it had the option one savings for option one savings fifteen thousand option 2 21 7 reimbursed but what's is there an additional cost what is the net on option two uh the net is strictly our administrative cost to run the special assessment uh all the mailings that are associated with special assessments um and things like that so what what would that be about six thousand seven hundred fifty dollars Okay so so be the 6 6 on 700 minus the 21 so the net would be that amount do I have that correct well then that would be 6750. okay so the net would be six thousand seven hundred fifty so option one would be a Net game would be a net gain of six thousand seven hundred fifty or not yeah I I'd say Yes um Ryan maybe maybe I can try and uh take a stab at this yeah um so right now the program costs us approximately fifteen thousand dollars to to models boulevards so if we don't mow them we would have a savings of fifteen thousand dollars so it'll be zero and then if we right so then if we um mow them and charge them back the total amount we charge to the residents would be Twenty One Thousand Seven fifty so I think the program or as far as cost of the city would likely be similar either way because either a we don't do it and save it or B we charge it to the residents to have it done does that make sense okay so just so that I have it clear so option one means zero it Nets at zero option two that 21 750 so there it's about fifteen thousand dollars to mow and an additional um six thousand seven hundred and fifty to do the administrative work so that Nets to zero as well so cost wise they're both netting at about zero do I have that correct thank you council member Gustafson thank you madam mayor um when you look at Option One what happens if they don't mow their lawns foreign what happens if they don't do the boulevards or is there an Enforcement issue we're going to be creating here yeah that's what I was thinking typically yes we would be we would be turning complaints we receive over to Community Development yeah yeah can I follow up please so that so we would have to send our inspectors out for enforcement the letters what we do with a lot of different enforcement issues we have yes and are there fines involved should they not comply uh the ultimate is uh Jenny can correct me if I'm wrong is the final is we mow it for them with a contractor and then I get put and it gets uh levied to their property taxes okay okay thank you and for everyone if you would go to where it says participants and you would you raise your hand I will recognize you uh Jenny thank you madam mayor I tried to I couldn't see the raise hand button so I'll look again um uh Jeff is correct on the code enforcement piece so we do do this right now for for residents who aren't in the program where we mow the boulevard so if they only mow part of their yard they are responsible for lowering the boulevard that is in our code um and so if they don't then the code enforcement process starts okay so everybody I remember when we went in and we had this hardship mowing when Mary Sherry raised the issue if you all remember and that was really around uh Parkwood and some of those areas where there is hardship just like the picture that uh Jeff showed with County Road 5 where those long fences and that's the same thing over at Parkwood and several other areas in the city so um refresh my memory again why we are doing going through this because once uh our residents have something and that's their expectation and then we take it away so I think that's also part of the question that our residents are asking refresh my memory Ryan Jeff oh it's it's the poor Optics of the situation that we are currently doing that we would like a solution to um I I'd say as many benef as many residents that like us that we mow their boulevards there's uh there's just as many that like dislike us that we pick up the deck uh when we get to a parcel that has a gate or something along that line so it's uh it's a no-win situation for us Madame mayor just uh at the May council meeting back in 2019 we did bring forth one option that would have had us basically mow all of the boulevards on our way up two one up two of the ones we had to get to so we would we would expand the program a bit and that was not um chosen to move forward so we did bring an option for us that would have had us still mow them without having an odd situation of lifting of the back of that kind of thing but um we were directed to not investigate them okay I saw a council member uh Workman Vince you had your hand up and then you took it down oh your hand is back up okay I was just going to reiterate what Ryan had just said that when this came before us the issue was that we had our staff mowing some parcels picking up the deck yeah and then putting it back down on sometimes the next house over um but Ryan answered that so yeah no I remember that discussion but when you go back to the original and you start taking things away from people that they have expectations uh so the dilemma here is fifteen thousand dollars of savings is that am I correct in what you're proposing Jeff or or Ryan that is correct I mean if we continue to continue to do what we currently do uh the cost is fifteen thousand dollars to the city uh the only thing we don't get rid of our bad Optics and we continue to get just as many residents mad at us as happy with us so we're going to find a mid-range solution and a mid-range solution is to charge 125 dollars a year and wouldn't we still encounter that bad object we would but at least for residents who are concerned about it we would say this is a service providing and the residents are receiving that service are um paying for me Melanie thank you Madame there um we certainly um we are reporting back what the council asked us to investigate last year so um we're simply looking for um your feedback and your direction on um what staff has researched based on the council's request no I appreciate the work staff is doing I'm just um ah asking my colleagues you know we're um people are have certain expectations and here they are we've been doing this and um and then we'll take it away and yes it looks at it it has it it doesn't address the Optics but we're also creating another situation where if they don't mow then we're going to be doing code enforcements which we're doing now uh with some other areas so we have to find a solution that continues to make our city vibrant as our vision is speaks to uh and um and so you know we have to find a solution here um Dan Gustafson and then Vince thank you madam mayor um I I I I just think in these times with what's going on to start adding more costs to our citizens is probably a worse optic than picking up your lawnmower moving down the street more than another part of the boulevard um and also that that fifteen thousand dollar savings from what I understand isn't really going to be 15 if we have to start putting enforcement on these because I I've been to those areas a lot of us have a lot of those residents are going to have a very difficult time getting out there I mean some of them have to go down the street around the corner up the street back and then go mow their their Boulevard and then go back again I mean they're gonna walk a couple blocks to get to that part of the boulevard um I think while the Optics might not be good on the program at least the program's getting the job done out there right now um I don't know that we want to take that away and I'm just and I'm certainly not feeling good about telling so many citizens that we're going to start charging them 125 dollars a year to start mowing that Boulevard for them Vince um I just wanted to pick up on a point that Ryan made about how if we Implement a 10 a month charge for this that it would help mitigate you know some of the uncomfortable situations that it seems they're running into about neighbors asking why not me um it kind of solves that issue and I think that is one of the issues that brought this before us in the first place was um Neighbors coming out and asking our staff you know why are you doing that house but not my house that option two seems to solve that issue um you know and I agree with Dan I mean tough times are tough right now but I don't think this is asking significant amount of money for a service that um I would welcome personally and I don't speak for 64 000 people but um option two to me seems like the reasonable Middle Ground between getting to a solution and maintaining our roads the way we expect to see them okay you know um are there any other questions for staff or any comments before I go to the public we do have some folks who would like to speak okay I'm going to go to uh Dan Killian and Kara now I see you Dan Keely thank you man America I had my hand raised but I was yeah it sounds out like you were headed another Direction so I just want to make sure I was able to comment I just want to thank staff they they responded to what we had gave them the last time when we talked about this um my personal feelings were uh that we are mowing people's property and responsibility for free and have for many many years um that might be great if you're one of those properties but um if I was the rest of the city um and I wasn't getting that benefit uh to Vince's point I think we have we have a problem there we have an imbalance that just sort of went undetected and and maybe unrecognized or wasn't acknowledged um I I agree 100 with option two because I've never felt like we should be doing it for them um and I think the other point that I'd make that uh to add on to Vince's point that will level the playing field as far as if you're not getting mode is because you have access and this person doesn't but they're paying for it now and if you want to pay 10 bucks a month We'll add your property to this program and um um and and we might find people go you know what from now on I'll just mope myself I can get around I'll run my mower around my house and I'll just do it fine we'll take you off the program then and for those that want to jump on they can pay to be on to me that makes it a fair and Equitable playing field if you want it you pay 10 bucks a month and you can you're you're Boulevard and and that poor access can get mowed um we've just unfortunately to your point Madame Mary you're absolutely right once we do something for decades for free nobody wants to give it up but we were not right in doing it I think the decision to do that long ago was a bad one because it created this problem that we have been facing today so I think number two fixes it thank you okay Cara I this might be a little bit about what um councilmember Keely is talking about but I'm wondering why there's not a third option and I I don't want to make people pay who are fine with mowing their own and can take care of it but there are also two-thirds of people who were on board with us Mowing and they will pay us so why not a third option where we just start from zero whoever wants it done they sign up we do it they pay if they don't want it and they wish to mow their own they don't sign up they don't pay that's my suggestion that I put forward is we you know and I think that voluntary the the second option is the second option is if you want to you're paying for it right but this would be going back to zero this would be eliminating hardship not hardship all that kind of stuff we just go to zero no one is getting it mowed by US unless they ask it and they pay and it's you know but because I I also don't want to force everyone that we're going to do the mowing for everyone and we're going to force them to pay when they're like no I've like I've got it covered or I you know I pay the teenager or you know whatever they're whatever their circumstances so I would like it to be voluntary okay I'm gonna go to uh Ryan first and then uh Vince and then Dan Gustafson and then Dan Keeley so Ryan first okay thank you um we had envisioned this more as an all-in or all not faithless program it would but just thinking it through if it was signed up we likely could make that happen but I if you want to go I wrote I would request that would be only properties that have a hardship we don't want to expand past the hardship Parcels because we we don't we just don't need the extra work I guess this is what I'm saying and most of them um so that'd be my comment on that okay and then uh Dan Gustafson and then uh I think it was Vince was afterwards and then back to Dan Keely thank you madam mayor uh I like the idea of people signing up I having been in a transportation for 30 some years I'm just wondering the logistics of mapping that out as our people are in the field mowing one house not mowing another house more in one house not more than another house because people opted in and opted out and how much more time is that going to take and how much more effort is that going to be administratively to make sure we're up to date every month on who we're more and who we're not mowing just something something to think about on that and that has the Optics is still there okay don't go away yeah Vince and you and Dan I think that's why we're talking about this in the first place because we're already doing that um bouncing around and there's inconsistencies and that's why this has come up in the first place um I just wanted to relate this back to what I think we're already doing with snow removal on sidewalks in certain neighborhoods where we're assessing that cost back to Property Owners when they probably have the ability to do that themselves um so I don't look at that this much different than that um in fact that has probably less of a hardship element um than this and so I just wanted to recall that as being relatable to what I think we're discussing right now and I would agree with Kara that if there was an opt-in opt out then people would have the choice to participate in the program or not well also echoing Ryan's point that we keep it to the properties that are already existing hardships I think on the on the snow removal don't we do all of it uh you know it's not an opt-in or opt out we do all of it right but we assess it to the neighbors um and just saying that to put it into context that that's this isn't a new thing that we're doing as a organization okay and Keely thank you madamir why I I do Ryan brought up a point that I think is important and it's really part of the qualifying um it's qualified properties those with a hardship not everybody because at ten dollars a month we might have a lot of takers saying I'll I'll sign up take care of my Boulevard for me so you know you're coming through you're doing a couple others I'm on the same street mine's easy to get to but if you if you guys are just going to keep on going I'll pay you too yeah yeah Dan I think you're Frozen you might need to exit and come back in or something so you're working on the quality can you hear me yeah now we can hear you so what was the last word you heard I pay 10 bucks a month gotcha jumping in the program so I think the part of the program is qualify it it's those properties that are that we've identified are hardship and then do you want in or do you want to do it yourself so to care a council member Schultz's point maybe some of them as I kind of noted we'll say I'll take care of it I'll get my more around there and I'll handle it I don't want to pay it and for those that don't have the ability some maybe some elderly folks that don't really have the ability to get their mowers around there they still mow their lawn but that hill or that embankment or access to that that Boulevard is just really really out of the question um you know they're going to stay in they're gonna they're gonna want it mode by by us so it sort of is a default opt-in or opt out right maybe they're dropped it in and unless they say no I'd like out I'll I'll handle it myself thanks for all the years of free mowing but I'll take care of it now myself okay Jeff had his hand up and then Jeff and then Karen back to Ryan Jeff uh you need to unmute Jeff sorry about that I was just going to comment on Dan's logistics thing uh if we're gonna go down this road we're probably going to need a policy of when they can opt in when they can opt out I mean I gotta hire seasonals to do this uh for us and you know I can't have you know a hundred more properties and I gotta I gotta hire more seasonals to do this for us so uh we're I guess staff would be strongly we'd have a policy on when they can drop down when they can opt out um and then they're in for the year uh things like that yeah they're committing for the whole season you know how many properties exist today correct yeah 166 is 166 right so that's the most you'll ever have because those are the ones that are qualified to be in based on their hardship correct yeah and so the only thing that it could go is down you might have less if some opt out and want to just do their own at that point yes we would have less and the savings would be listed but yeah it's a moot point it's uh Optics it's not really cost yeah the Optics doesn't problem doesn't get solved okay I'm gonna move on to uh Kara and then Ryan Cara uh yeah so my comment is yeah I would it would be for a season I mean people can't jump in and out every month um and then yeah they're they're in for the season or they're out for the season and um I mean I I don't know I I'm not as worried about the Optics that that does not concern me as much so um what I do want to hear from staff though is um if we were to go down that path how would you prefer this be modeled so that it's not such a pita for staff and yes I also see residents are really wanting to speak so I will and let them go to it okay I go to Ryan Ryan has his hand up and you're you're on deck and you're unmuted so that's good um I was just gonna say you talked about someone talked about the um sidewalk snowballing program the key difference there is everyone's in because one of the big reasons we did that was for Mobility so we didn't if someone doesn't know their Boulevard it's unsightly but it doesn't affect Mobility for everyone else so that's part of the reason why everyone's coming in on that deal and then um I think Jeff would be in agreement with me but I think we'd agree with councilmember souls's plan of you're out until you say you're in as opposed to your end until you say you're out I think that would be better we probably have fewer numbers of it you know like Jeff was saying we had a policy had to be in by December the year prior I think we couldn't likely figure it out and then finally we are right now with our current program we do have to go paint sidewalks and this kind of thing to show or the people who are doing the mowing which ones are supposed to mow and which ones they are for doing some of that already um that'll be my final Cruise okay what I'm going to do is because we have residents who are waiting to speak and I'm going to go to them because we need to hear from them and I believe that um Mike Raymond is uh ready to speak am I correct Megan that's correct he's coming to panelist mode right now just one moment yeah so Megan uh I have Mike Raymond Daniel albing and Brian Kemp right I don't believe Daniel albing is on the meeting but Brian kempf is and then we have another member of the public who has his hand raised as well Dan Schleck okay very good um so Mr Mike Raymond um thank you can you hear me uh we can hear you are you on Zoom or are you just calling in I'm on Zoom but for some reason my camera's not showing I'd be happy to show you but um did you um get your camera to work that works we start yeah so now we can see you yeah thank you I needed to um uh to me yeah very good good to see you welcome thank you madam mayor I think I want to say first your line of questioning is encouraging and I want to appreciate it I appreciate that um to me it's a question of ownership um there was a list of of the mowing activity that happens and one of them was private um with hardship as as you as you state or Public public is obviously something the city of Burnsville is responsible for mowing uh according to my property records somebody can easily tell me I'm wrong I don't own the boulevard that's behind me behind the fence six foot privacy fence the length of my yard I don't even look at it I can't see it I have to I'm at the bottom of a cul-de-sac that I would need to go all the way up from Interlocken Lane to Portland to Southcross down half a block or almost a block and my neighbor is in the same situation whose husband just passed away last week I didn't even know that that was a quote unquote adjacent to my property and I certainly don't own it because there's a sidewalk running there I don't see how I'm responsible at all for any of it and if I own it that's fine I would be happy to take care of it if it's mine and I own it if it was a Boulevard in front of my house where the upkeep of it added value to my home then absolutely I would take care of it and if the the boulevard that's out behind my house gets more use out of people driving by than I have ever used it I don't it's not mine it's the city's responsibility to mow it at your cost that I paid for through my taxes that's my thought okay thank you so much for sharing your thoughts because uh yeah you make a good point so I think the next and I know that Mr Daniel Albany is uh ready in on Deck but I'm going to go to Mr Mike uh Mr Daniel oh yeah Mr Alban you're you're you're next can you hear me now we can hear you you need to uh yeah now we can see you you turned on your video Yeah well yeah thank you um I want to Echo Mike's comments about the prop ownership and the hard job that we would have to get even to that section of lawn we'd have to walk two blocks over one up and then two back um to get to that section um but listening to council members talk about the impetus for the change kind of worried me because um hearing that it's my property my responsibility if that's the case what other options do I have can I make that a butterfly garden can I pour Roundup on it can I gravel over it you know that's if it's my property my responsibility then I should be able to change it within the confines of you know whatever is possible in the city of Burnsville I'm gonna go to Jenny Jenny what are some of the things that we have uh in our code that can allow our residents if the boulevard they you know they can't get to it uh can they turn it into um a butterfly garden can they turn it into whatever um actually Madam mayor members of the council I'm going to need some help from our Public Works director here this is a because it's city right away there's different regulations on what can and cannot be had with that so I would say that it's my understanding there would be a range of options of what could happen there um certainly you can't play structures uh in the right of way and we have Provisions that allow things like bus benches Lawns I don't know that our code gets into any detail more than that what you can or can't do do you know anything more Mr Peterson um yeah I mean it's like Jenny said the number one thing in right away is you can't place things that would be damaging if someone runs into it I mean you get allowed to a mailbox but a mailbox is supposed to be break away um it's similar you know it's the eight inch height for grass and that kind of thing you can have a low Garden um sight lines are important um it may be wise to talk to a City attorney damn Nick on how ownership works because basically the city acquires right away um and operates it but the underlying property is still really owned by the um Property Owners opposed to the city that were it's kind of a unique mix um of how boulevards work I don't know if Joel would like to describe ownership and right away and that kind of thing mayor council I think Ryan just did that it is a unique mix it's a hybrid the uh if you look at property ownership as a bundle of sticks the metaphor is always that when you have right away that the property owner underlying fee owner has a residual number of stakes but the majority of the sticks are the possession of the city that's using it for travel purposes and so there's a joint interest in many of these properties and the balance is in some cases somewhat uncertain you can make reasonable use of the property you can't interfere with the cities right away uh you're subject to our police power ordinance regarding length of grass structures in those areas and those types of things so it is a blend of various rights okay very good thank you for that clarification um can I can I add to my point or did you have to move on no please do so that that makes it pretty clear to me that my my frustration around this issue has been Justified because if it's the city right away and the city owns the majority of the sticks then to me the city needs to take care of it because I have no access to it I I get no benefit from it and if the city doesn't want to take care of it which it sounds like council is leaning toward if the city doesn't want to take care of it then those sticks fall to me and I can do whatever I want as long as there's no structure and it's not agent eight inches high um so I and then I think then thinking about from the benefit of the whole city I don't think everyone in the city wants to see what I would do with seven inches of clearance on my one little spot there on Southcross that I don't see it would be I I mean to me the benefit to the city is pretty clear that it just is a nice clean mode Boulevard that's all I'll move on thank you thank you so much uh Mr albing for uh coming in and speaking with us uh we have Mr Brian Kemp Mr Kemp you can sign in oh they know what Mr Alden would do okay our garden am I in yeah uh uh let's see uh Megan is Mr uh Kempton trying to get in okay and then um make sure that your video is on and you unmute yourself please ah there you are sure yeah there you are hello good evening thank you uh Madam mayor and council members I appreciate the opportunity to address the issue at hand today so um I do want to say uh Madam mayor thank you so much for some of the questions that you had posed about the issue they're they're incredibly relevant uh from my perspective and as a property owner here I think you know I I hit three of the four um issues that uh the residents had raised surrounding what what the concerns generally are about this potential change and that those are I have a physical barrier I certainly am concerned or focused on you know ownership control and the benefits associated with that in in very very importantly safety concerns I I am right along County Road 5 at 155th Street um you know uh I I I don't want to over exaggerate but I mean the speed limit there is 45 I would say that's the minimum that people go along there and it's oftentimes not too much different than 35W so for me to go out there with my more or tractor and molon uh on road five there represents a significant safety concern and in fact I I actually took a picture here a couple weeks ago that one of the signs directly on the boulevard behind my house was uh rolled over by a vehicle so clearly people are not uh maybe safely driving along County Road 5 there and and they do speed quite frequently so the safety concern is a big deal I do really um want to just reiterate that um this original hardship mowing was established for a reason and I I don't think many of those reasons have changed today a a sense that the driving issue behind the work that we're doing here and addressing is about the poor Optics I keep hearing it's about the poor Optics and you know those are always regrettable but I think our lives are filled with poor Optics in in probably more so at the government level than in Private Industry or private property ownership there's always going to be some people who are just unhappy you can't please them all so I I struggle with the idea but in order to clean up the optics for a few people who complain essentially my taxes are going up I mean this you know it does become another form of Taxation to receive services from the city that I anticipated were there when I bought the home 10 years ago quite frankly when I bought the home 10 years ago if somebody said you have to mow that Boulevard right out there on Concord five or the speed limit is 45 miles an hour and generally ignored I I'm not so sure I would have made the offer on the home that's a game changer for me and I suspect it could be a game changer for somebody who wants to purchase my house in the future saying that you know that's your responsibility the one way to get rid of it is to actually pay more in taxes to the city which mine are right now over eight thousand dollars a year so I I feel like I'm being surcharged because there's a few people in the city who are a little bit unhappy that their properties get looked over um on the way to cutting some of the hardship properties so um I guess uh I'll just finish with um if somebody's gonna make me be responsible for that I like the idea of uh one of the gentlemen before me said what about Roundup because that would certainly take care of the problem you know the way the city wants it to look but it would take care of the problem uh I'd be safer and uh the city can save their money um I maybe just as one last thing if if this is to be implemented under an option two which probably seems more likely than option one if anything is going to happen I I just don't know that I see a need for the city to upcharge for an administrative fee um you know it just seems like yet another packs on top of attacks so yeah I just want to thank you all for your time I I hope my points resonate at some level um it is kind of frustrating here that uh I may have to pay more for the services that I guess I anticipated were simply there when I purchased the home so thank you and thank you for sharing your thoughts and also uh your comments with regard to the options that were presented this evening okay so it appears to me that uh you would like the program to continue as as is very much so at a mayor yeah and uh you don't believe that a charge another charge on top of all of that is going to change the Optics and you may pay for it but someone else may not and it doesn't have any impact on the Optics so if um what I'm hearing you and um Mr Raymond and Mr albing said okay um if it's our property then we can do anything with it and not and not uh obstruct sight lines yes yes so it doesn't have to be groomed so it does it still does and solve the Optics problem right that's correct that's right so everybody's going to do their own thing that's what it boils down to yeah well thank you Mr Kemper uh coming in this evening and sharing your thoughts with us thank you council members and Madam mayor thank you okay um members of the council uh council member uh Schultz and then councilmember Tilly I have two questions uh could residents um indeed or donate that strip of property to the city uh that'll go to um Mr jamnick our attorney uh what happens if so it can you answer that question because Kara is saying what about if uh the property owners need those properties over to the city if the council wanted to take the underlying fee interest we would accept that you'd have to process it as a need they can't force the city to take it but it's like any other real estate transaction if someone wanted to offer for sale to the city the council could evaluate that and agree to take the deed and record it which would then change the right-of-way easement into a complete fee simple absolute or fee ownership yeah okay and then the second question um which may not be for Mr jamnick but may be for our Public Works uh so can they do a rock garden can they do gravel can they do naturalizing can they yeah is that allowable but if it's not a structure um that could be done I don't think Roundup is a solution because we just need something going back but um we definitely have like Rock Gardens or um that type of garden you know low low plant Gardens with a little streetscape mixed in yes okay thank you I think also we've been doing this for so long that we'd have to review our what's in our city code um I I I'm sure things have changed since that part of the city code has been written on what they can do there and there's uh there's low lying you know uh natural Prairie now and things like that that probably weren't ever considered when that part of the cold was written true uh then K and then danji thank you madam mayor um I know that there are some properties along County Road 11 that back up where they're they have those large backyards and they go down and some folks have uh gotten rid of the grass put in weed barrier and put rocks underneath the big trees or right down to the sidewalk so they didn't have to uh have that maintenance opportunity um I just want to go back if we could to clarify that ownership legal issue with Mr jamnik is it fair to say that the easement I'm on the Dakota County GIS right now and I see where the property line is drawn for the plat and outside of that would be the easement I would assume um is the property outside of that which is those lines are well inside the sidewalk so the property that is outside of those black platted lines on each person's property is that land actually owned currently by the city or is that deeded by deed owned by by the property owner even though the plat lines don't necessarily go all the way to the street corner call it or this edge of the street mayor and Council the plat lines on the property basically show under the under the state statute for planting just chapter 505. the plot lines Define the city's Road interest or the counties or the states the private property owns the air the private property owner owns that full area outside of that right-of-way Mark area as free and clear up to the edge of the road up to the edge of the road not necessarily where the road is built but where that black line on the plat is shown on the map at that point the city owns a basic easement for right-of-way purposes or whoever the road authority is owns an easement over the property so say in the future as you know and we change things for developments and plats and we vacate easements and vacate roads and generally speaking that the property is on properties on either side of that vacated area would own at the midpoint of the road as a general rule if the city abandoned that road therefore to the uh to the gentleman uh Mr schlengen and the other gentleman that I think he's he's gone uh now um to the question of who owns it because I think the couple comments are made if the city owns it then why am I required to maintain it if I own it then what can I do with it the question the answer to that question is you do own it and you can do certain things with it outside of structures if you want to cut down all the weeds and turn it into a rock garden so it has no maintenance as many Property Owners around the city have done uh if you drive around to see it you have the ability to do that um if it's a significant hardship to get to uh to one example I'm on a 155th and County Road 5 on the gis and I see where there's um you know some wooded areas that separate a lot of the homes from uh County Road five and their easement uh and and the you know the sorry the median um they're all they all look like they're fairly accessible whether they want to for safety reasons to that gentleman's point on a high-speed Road like that walk right along the street pushing a mower or riding on a mower that close to high traffic I certainly can understand that uh concern but that property is in fact their property not the cities our easement is for roadway and utility access but we are not required to maintain their property uh we just have because of this hardship so I'm glad we got that cleared up because I I was always wondering I thought uh to Mr jandick's Point that's what it was that I owned up to the road Edge but that there was an easement that the city had for Access for utilities for Road expansion whatever it might be but it was my property and it was my responsibility to maintain it period M and that's I think I've I've spoke from that perspective and that knowledge and you just affirmed so I don't change my I wouldn't change my position at all I think this is an education for a lot of people I think a lot of people who are affected by these properties were much like Mr uh schlanger and the other gentleman they didn't really know if they owned it or not they figured the city did because the city was mowing it so apparently I don't own it they own it uh in fact they do own it thank you uh councilmember Gustafson thank you madam mayor listening to all this and we're talking about really something that's going to save the city fifteen thousand dollars and a lot of work can go into a lot of different ways to do this whole thing or higher taxes for some people fees if you want to call it that what is so wrong with this continuing status quo what is so wrong with just if there's some people that don't like it well there's some people that don't like it I mean that's kind of the way it is I don't I don't see anything wrong with just continue doing what we're doing unless we're just hell-bent on getting rid of some optic that we don't want people to see yeah yeah the optic right we would just be charging those properties who want to get mowed and lifting and mowing would still be there when we had this discussion and council member Keeley you were a part of that discussion back then with uh both council member Sherry and council member Coughlin when we uh were looking at these uh hardship areas everybody at that time uh was unanimous in saying that we will take care of those hardship areas so now uh we're looking at saving fifteen thousand dollars and I look at what's going to be coming up for a discussion later on and uh you know so these are all the kinds of uh issues with regard to funding that we're going to be uh uh addressing so the thing is there are people who have hardship and it was the the the definition was hardship and where we went down that road so that's what we are my memory and it is hard to say to people now you had this service but we're taking it away from you now there has to be a solution somewhere there if we're going to take it away from them and it is their property then they have the right to do what they want to do with it and the other thing that I don't want to see happen is that they're going their code enforcement is now going to be uh out there and then they're going to be charged a fee so you know they're stuck between them um a rock and a hard place if you will so um Vince you have your hand up thank you um I'm gonna jog my memory a bit this first be came to us the ask was that we rather than pick up the Decks that we just continue on forward to reduce the inconsistencies so at one point we were prepared to increase taxes as part of this plan if that's the concern um and at that time we didn't want to do that we wanted to find a different option because picking up and lowering didn't seem like a good fit and we also didn't want to continue to go to put a financial hardship on you know our residence so I'm just trying to get to the root of what we're seeking right now um are we seeking to reduce hardship are we seeking to reduce taxes or are we seeking to give Property Owners property rights I don't know what we're after well council members this was a direction from Council Members to staff if I recall it was at least personally to clean this up and make it not so sticky um as it was in looking at reducing a tax burden at least that's right my head was at when we were talking about this initially I'll leave it there and I guess pick up if anybody else wants to speak you know exactly did it I I I've got Ryan Peterson then I have Cara Schultz and Dan Keely um Madam mayor members of the council thank you um I would say when Jeff and I basically if you want to call took over the public works department we had three things that we identified that were doing that were wasn't good we had troubles with recycling in the Parks uh you guys uh the city council went and supported that we do a much better job now we have the right truck we have the right equipment we're taking care of recycling the parts like we should uh our sidewalk snow plowing um because my gosh is pretty much it was long but when I was following the sidewalks it was that bad a couple of those years you know we were hearing about it and rightfully so so we brought for the solution the solution to uh solve that and then um and it's it's worked out great and we had awesome support to do so this was our third leg of the three-legged school that was things that we had noticed that just were just didn't seem like it was the right thing that we were doing so I guess that's you know an answer across my workman's question what what's what's the end game why are we talking about this that that at least in our opinion was the what we were trying to find a better way of doing things so um all that being said you know if the right thing to do is just continue what we're doing for now I mean there will be no objection from us but that's not what you're saying but I just heard it brought up a timer too um we can continue on um but we also can do some of our options open flowing up there thank you Kara you know my thought is uh whichever pathway we take forward I don't I don't want to charge people that don't want to be charged like I I I what I don't want to do is say we're going to mow everybody and we're just gonna charge them whether they want to or not whether they could mow their own or not we're just going to do it um that is my least favorite option out of all of them okay okay uh Dan cutie I think you metamere is the the current proposed plan number two um it wasn't a you have to participate because you're qualified it's now you are in but you can opt out to council member schill's point if somebody decides they don't want to pay 10 bucks a month uh to have something done that other people who have the same Boulevard uh maybe some encumbrances some none at all they're all mowing their own so they're saving the con they're saving the city uh the 15 000 because they're doing it themselves these are properties that have a little bit greater challenge but that doesn't change the ownership responsibility um so if um if if a person who has that encumbrance or that difficulty that um but that doesn't mean we're forcing them in the program correct where we can allow them to opt out and they can handle it themselves either mow it put Rock in whatever they want to do right um Ryan the clarification what what would work for us procedurally would be you opt in you would be out unless you opted in I think it'd be much more problematic yeah and it's a it's a it's a it's it's a paperwork uh nightmare so uh what I hear from uh council is uh uh Kara is saying the least option that she likes is charging them right now we're doing it for fifteen thousand dollars please I remember the day right during the recession when we didn't do anything on the medians or boulevards and they got so overgrown that I went out and picked the weeds with a couple of volunteers from County Road five all the way to Parkwood before the fire muster so the city looked good to our guests coming in so part of all of that too is that we're looking at all of this and the these and Ryan you're correct it was under um Steve's uh time with us and uh it was when we had this discussion and it was a unanimous vote to uh take care of those hardship properties because Dan you had a friend that lives on on County Road 11 the backyard had a fence and all of that and we heard from residents along Parkwood along five and all of that so you know that was then this is not the time for us to be looking at fifteen thousand dollars and saying you know fifteen thousand dollars I believe back then with the weeds it was 35 000 and we put it right back in the next budget because it was important for our city to be uh to have good visual appeal when people come in when we say that we want people to look at our city and they say yeah it's a great place to live so um what is um I have my hands up yeah I see um Dan and Kara so Dan you are up and then Kara well I I didn't mention this before but this has never been about the 15 000 for me uh this isn't a cost reduction move this is writing a wrong we have 166 properties that have some sort of challenge getting access to their Boulevard to maintain it like they maintain the rest of their property all of the how many properties we have roughly in the city a few several thousand seventeen thousand Seventeen yes seventeen thousand properties and all but 166 are maintaining their property I'm a big property rights person I'm also a bigger property accountability person it's your property it's your responsibility to take care of it if you have a difficulty getting access to it then find a solution or sign up with the city and have us mow it simple that's fair that's fair to the other many thousands of property owners who are taking care of their own property and much of those of course are very easy to access get it but that doesn't just because of the accessibility is difficult doesn't waive the property owners rights and obligations to take care of their own property I I just I on that principle alone is why I want this changed because I think it's wrong what we've been doing is essentially giving out free mowing to 166 properties at the expense of everybody else the 15 000 is being covered by the whole city but no one else is getting a benefit but 166 people who have properties that are situations where it's difficult to get to find a solution or pay us to move for you real simple straightforward opt-in stay out do what you want put a flower garden in put rocks in but this is not the city's responsibility to be maintaining other people's property for free okay Cara Cara you need to unmute I wanted to clarify what my what my thought on this is is um what I don't want to do is I don't I don't want to expand what we're doing in force force new people into this program and say we're going to do everybody and we're going to charge them I don't want to do that um I do think that this I think this should be voluntary I think if people if people want the city to maintain that they can opt into that for a fee um if they want to maintain it themselves in whatever manner that they they desire um you know that's that's fine for them to do as well um I also understand that there is a feeling of is this really my property if I can't do anything that I want to it which I completely understand we have a lot of rules about what people can and can't do with any piece their property all the time I'm like talking you know where you put your garbage can down to everything so we got a lot of rules on on what you can do with your property so I mean they do have a point where it's um if you can't do anything you want to your property do you really do you really own it I believe me I'm on board with that argument I I get that um so I hopefully that clarifies where I am at with this I um as for the fifteen thousand dollars I think rolling into 2021 and I'm I'm not saying this is the 2021 fifteen thousand dollars is gonna matter we're looking at some interesting times coming up so I do want our residents to start preparing um for that and how that is going to affect city services so that's my point on that okay I have Mr Mike Raymond who wants to speak and then I believe Mr Kemp also want has some um so I'm going to go to Mr Mike Raymond first Mr Raymond ah there you are unmute yourself so we can hear you yeah thank you thank you madam uh mayor I'm still very confused about the property ownership um everything I've ever seen on my property I just went to Zillow and looked at the property lines there's a clear big white line before the sidewalk that shows no ownership of that um of that Boulevard and I I really do I challenge each and every one of you I'll have a social distancing happy hour come over here and if you own this property and you thought you deserve you needed to to mow that I I would do it I would I would do it without any issue but I guarantee you to the person unless you're being dishonest you would not even know that that was part of my property and from Southcross you would you would have a problem determining whose property that belongs to I um I want to be respectful so I'm going to stop talking now but I I this is this is uh this is not even a negotiation in my mind it's either we're gonna charge you or we're gonna uh we're gonna find you for not doing it or you sure you can you can go ahead and put rocks up but why would I do that I don't ever see that um I'd be I'd be more apt to round up it I'd be happy to go on my little walk and while I'm over there I I'd put some Roundup or weed killer down every couple weeks I'd rather do that um almost out of spite and I'm sorry but I don't own this property and one of you needs to prove to me that I do um and if that's if you can then you know that's a different discussion but I don't I don't own this property Madam mayor could we respond to Mr Raymond because Mr Raymond you have an unusual uh property configuration we have a lot of those in the city so I I totally understand where you're coming from that's why I wanted to clarify with Mr gemnick earlier who really owns the property and as he pointed out if that's your land right that run it runs to the road Edge that line that I believe Zillow is putting on is probably just reflecting the um the gis map from Dakota County which shows the uh the easement lines because that's very important to know that you can't like put a fence right on the other side of that easement line uh or put a a structure right so it's very important for Realty sites to note those lines because that's kind of where that's the farthest your fence can go if you want to stick a fence in you can't go over that line but that doesn't mean you you don't own the property all the way to the road you just can't do certain things on the quote City easement portion of your property uh but you know you've got an unusual one with the way your your you know your property backs up to a different street altogether so I totally understand it doesn't look like yours it doesn't feel like yours it's been mowed all this time legally in fact you own it and that's what Mr jamnick pointed out earlier okay don't want it you can have it you don't even have to pay me for it you can Mr Keeley you can have it personally I'll give it to you I don't know I don't want it but I'm gonna drive over by your property and take a look at it I used to live over in that area so I'm kind of familiar where your property is at okay I'm going to go to um I think it's Mr Raymond no that must be Mr camp thank you Mike yeah for chiming in and give us your opinion and your perspective thank you yeah very valuable Ryan camp Megan is um Mr Kemp still around and because it's it looks like Daniel albing would like to speak again I will promote him to his channel okay thank you bring him in hello Mr albing sorry the app takes a second there to get back in um thanks Madam mayor I'd like to Echo your uh comment earlier about how you went out by yourself you know by hand to to weed that Boulevard area because to me like I I definitely understand the legalities of it I understand that it's my property if if that's what I own I own it so I can you know like mentioned I can use it however I want legally um I get all that but I I also think that it's in the city's interest to keep the boulevard looking a certain way whether that's you know by weeding and by Mowing and by taking care of the streets and by plowing in the winter and whatever it's in the city's interest and Southcross which is where my property backs up to it's a very highly trafficked area and um it it would be a you know somewhat of a blight for the city if there were you know bits of gravel in certain spots and high grass in certain spots and Roundup areas like mine um it would to me it serves the city's interests to have that Boulevard look decent and 15 000 seems like a very low price to pay for that foreign one other one other question as well my wife raises a good point what what are we what is the city doing with that 15 000 if we if we need to cut 15 000 from the budget for this where is that going because my taxes aren't going to go down I assume yeah it's not a budget decision anyway it's a it's a fair and Equitable decision the budget for me anyway the budget is not a not even a factor in this okay very good so members of the council um I'm going to wrap up this discussion and uh what do you want to do so uh yeah that council member Keely says this is a property rights issue and uh and people need to pay I support number two okay then now that everyone was really worried and wondering what the heck I stood for but well because it's it's years ago you were okay back then now it's different today so Vince um I'm echoing a lot of councilmember Keely sentiments and uh he said it exactly the way I was thinking it so I'm also comfortable with number two Cara uh I'm good with number two but it voluntary it's an opt-in um not an opt out um but I mean I am curious and I am open to residents um voluntarily deeding that portion of their property over to the city I I am I understand what they're saying and I'm fine with that I can't remember uh Dan Gustafson thank you madam mayor I my my uh desire would be to just continue to do what we've been doing uh for me too I don't think that we understand I understand Property Owners rights and I'm uh I'm big on on property owners rights the thing is we have been down this road and things have changed right I understand all of that and we always learn to Pivot and make different decisions we're at a different time and I think if uh we come back uh in a couple of years if you want to continue to look at this uh that might be something but for me right now uh to continue with what we're doing it's fifteen thousand dollars uh there are some other things that are coming up that uh I understand council members are going to want to uh look at it in terms of um what we do with uh retail sales and all of that uh with uh what we charge um in terms of Licensing license and so forth so you know that's Property Owners that's a that's also a right of a business owner to pay all of that as well so difficult times we're in crisis I'm interesting uh to continue with what we're doing but I see that we have three votes to uh move to uh uh option two uh yes um Ryan could I um repeat back what I think option two is yes please so that would be the only hardship Parcels would be allowed into the program that's right hardship everyone is out you have to opt in yeah you have and then uh we we would likely create a date like midwinter or something like that that that they that you would have to decide by and then we'd bring back a policy that would describe uh how we go about um doing the collection of the fee or the assessment or whatever it is and so we bring something back I don't know if I I think this would like to hear Brian or are we doing that for this year are we charging for this year or next year I'm trying to figure out a way to do it this year but I don't really know that we can so I think we'd have to start it up in 2021. yeah okay the budget's there for this year so that's what I was thinking we already adopted budget we didn't take it out for uh this year so okay because the budget's adopted we adopted the budget in December of uh 2019. okay I don't see any hands up from the members of the council or our staff so that's that's option two option two is um um only hardship properties are in and others opt in correct no only hardship properties are qualified to be in and all of those opt-in yeah the qualifiers are the uh the hardship and then the others will opt in at a 125. a year 125 annually okay the staff I think you have three members going for option two thank you madam remember the council will bring a policy back um again on the agenda sometime in the next couple months okay very good thank you thank you is there um did somebody say that I don't see you handed up we're moving on to the second item and this is the um freeway landfill uh preferred dig and line option uh presenting is Jenny Faulkner our community development director and Kirk kadelka from the mpca he's the assistant commissioner welcome Mr kadelka and welcome Jenny okay good evening Madam mayor members of the council um I'll just get us started here and before I get into a very brief PowerPoint presentation I'd like you to know that the mpca has posted revised plans on their website those were not in the packet so I will be going over the most current plans in the presentation tonight the public comment period is now open with the deadline of June 12th we are looking to get your thoughts as we prepare our comment letter for that June 12th deadline and as you've noted Madame mayor assistant commissioner Kirk cadelka here is here as well as Cliff shirk from the mpca's office to answer any questions next slide please as you know there are currently um column two tracks that the mpca is considering one is a dig in line option and the other is a dig and Hall option under the Dig and line option um to date the mpca has looked at three different Alternatives and what they're trying to do is to get that down to one alternative as they go up for bids so digging Hall will be one bidding option and they did one dig in line will be the other bidding option uh next slide please so since um we last went over the details in February I think it was or and then last November um the plans have been further refined by the Consultants working for the npca so um the changes in the plan are are kind of premised on the fact that we know more today or the mpca does know more about the physical situation out there at 50 design with these three models so that helps um there what has changed is there are certain areas in these plans in these three concepts that will have unexcavated areas of waste and that's highlighted in pink on those documents if you went to the website uh the trash transfer station has a berm that's around it that's been a requirement of the city council for screening so that will be replaced as well there's also considerations for future right away and bike paths as far as our mrq planning goes they've provided for storm water areas for the uh dig in line new landfill and gas areas are provided regarding Wetland mitigation that is yet to be determined kind of depending on which option is is chosen here so that's kind of what's the what's new what what changes have come to date next slide so here's a graphic that shows the three different versions so there's variation a b and c variation a is the tallest smallest footprint outlined in red if you look at this slide it's kind of you can see the word variation a there but it's the smallest footprint outlined with the red line on the right variation B is the largest footprint shortest height that's the far right blue line that kind of follows the access road and then variation C is in the middle that was previously called kind of the hybrid option um on the previous plans and then we'll go to the next slide and so you'll recall seeing a chart like this that we've talked about in the past in several presentations so these this is the details of this of those three options um so the smallest footprint would be 850 feet tall and just to note the current elevation is approximately 750 feet uh that would yield approximately 22 acres of developable land and then we had ehlers give us some numbers on what that valuation would mean to you for your consideration about a little over 18 million dollars if it's office industrial at 22 Acres we would Envision this to be um an office office warehouse office industrial type of use then the one that's the largest footprint the shortest height would yield about 6.4 acres for development when you take all those other considerations and up to 50 design you're left with about six acres of development with a valuation of 5 million and then the moderate footprint or the hybrid option yields about nine a little over nine acres of developable property and a valuation of about 7.8 million and then of course the Dig and haul which is kind of the track two if everything's taken out of there and we go to the preferred option with the mixed use high density type development significant increase in property values of about 733 million dollars and we have talked about next slide and so the next steps as part of this process is that the mpca is going to be holding a virtual public informational meeting on the 18th and information on how to get into that is on their website on the npca's freeway landfill website public comment period ends on the 12th um then at some point mpca will get entitlement or access to the site and then they'll go to bid this fall with two options as noted a dig and Hall option in a dig in line option the goal is for them to have a funding decision by the legislature in 2021 a next slide so that leaves us with tonight's meeting and getting those comments together as the mpca moves forward with its process and so um Ryan Melanie and myself are the team working with the mpca on this and our questions to you this evening would be do you is there any additional information you would need that would go into our letter our comment letter to them are you willing to name a preferred alternative if you had to pick one of these what do you have a preference do you have opinions about leaving certain areas where the trash is going to stay what concerns or questions would you have about that and are there other considerations that the council may have as we prepare our comment letter um on this one so with that I will stand for any questions and as we've noted um the folks from mpca are here as are my colleagues okay uh welcome Mr kadelka and you can unmute yourself thank you for coming in and helping to educate us with what's going on so members of the council and Melanie please uh refresh my memory did we not do a resolution that we prefer digging Hall uh Madam mayor and Council indeed that is your preferred alternative is digging at home yeah what I thought members of the council any other thoughts or are you still um with digging Hall and do you want a letter I see um Dan keely's hand is up and then I'll go to uh Kirk Kadoka I'm going to go to Kirk cadelka first then and then and then to you let's hear from uh from her thank you mayor and city council members we are looking for your preference on dig in line oh I know that that is the city council's interest and by far biggest priority for it would be for digging Hall and I think that's please include that in the letter but as we move too forward to the legislature and if there was for some reason digging Hall was not selected we would like to make sure that any dig a line option that moved forward was able to incorporate the city's information so kind of think of it as your second choice since I know digging Hall is your first choice okay very good thank you that clarify so uh you know our first choice and then uh this is like what's your second choice and then uh this is uh when you're going to do the uh second choice in the dig in line that's Bond money right under dig in line Mr kodelka hello Maryland City Council Members it would be up to the legislature okay very good Dan kelian and Tara shops well first uh welcome to Kirk and I want to thank him I was on the phone with him before a meeting any uh graciously gave me about 45 minutes to I grilled him with lots of questions and uh he had a lot of answers I did uh note to him that I don't think we had changed our position that um we are a digging Hall only preferred option um my only concern with [Music] um providing any feedback on dig and line options is because um they they aren't our preferred option I I don't want to give them any credibility by saying well okay if we can't have that then this is what we're gonna have my position is very very very strongly entrenched in the only option that really has any light of day is digging hall because and what's not in these presentations presentations is what is the real Choice here it's not just about here's some acreage and here's some cost and here's Etc it's what's left afterwards and if in that chart in our background we're talking about 120 112 Acres of potentially acreage of developable property versus 2510 or or actually the new numbers uh there is no 40. it's like 22 and then down right so it we're talking you know Hulk size differences in this um and the plan that we've all talked about that kmm presented um is approaching a billion dollars in developable land if we dig and haul um and I don't know what the options here at 20 some Acres Etc would translate to but it's not going to be anywhere near a billion dollars and so the property tax revenues for the state for the county for the city are what's at stake here it's not just the cost on the front end being what it is and I think the digging Hall low end range is probably still a little higher than what I believe it ultimately will come in but we'll find out we'll all find out when uh bids come in uh for that but um I just I just I I really Reserve saying I prefer this one over that one over that one because in a way that's giving credibility to it and to me neither of those dig in line options have because digging line means instead of a big beautiful billion dollar development we're gonna have a big beautiful Green Hill coming into Burnsville and uh I mentioned uh to Mr kaduck on the phone we could maybe mow welcome on the one side coming in from Bloomington and come back soon on the Northbound side but that's we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars of lost developable land with any of those three dig in line and so from my perspective I I don't want to sound like um I'm I'm cliching the the Shark Tank but for that reason I'm out I can't I can't give any recommendation on digging lying period And I don't think our Council should Kara uh I also only support digging Hall that that is it um there is not a single dig in line option that I will support in any way shape or form um council member Keely talked about uh how that would that would absolutely Rob Burnsville it would Rob our County it would Rob our state of Revenue to do that we are already taking on a burden by having a landfill that's already our burden it is unfair to add to our burden to then say we're gonna make this so that you can just never never do anything with this never never have any hint of a thank you for this thank you for having these landfills and I will also point out that this wouldn't just be tax revenue to the city and the county and the state this would be Revenue that would go to the school district and our school district is hurting and by going to dig in Hall as well we could start to recruit some of those costs as can our school district as can our County as can the state much much sooner as well so I I think that is going to be a Paramount importance coming up so for that reason there is only one option that I support and that is digging Hall okay Vince Workman you sound like a parrot here but um I am in agreements with my colleagues that digging Hall is really the only feasible option for me um I would like to know a little bit more about the estimates um the cost estimates of 145 to 235 I did see that there's some information on the public input page that speaks to this um I believe those numbers skew higher than what the they'll actually be I'm hopeful that those will come back lower um the dig in line is not an option um for the future of the city and um it can't in good conscious say which one I like the best because I like them all the least thank you okay uh I've got something with Dan Gustafson thank you madam mayor uh I agree with my colleagues I think the uh digging Hall is the only way to go in this it's uh it's amazing what's going on down there we have we have three private companies are trying to work together right now to help the whole city solve a problem and that's that's nice when that comes together when you have the uh the public and private working hand in hand on getting that done I agree we would be giving up a lots of good development development land and uh I just I don't see another way but the digging Hall I would I would like to ask Mr godalko a question though yes uh would you support digging Hall yes thank you Ameren and City Council Members the agency is going to put forward the options that are protective human health and the environment the difference between dig and awe will be something that will move forward to the legislature and the governor to decide on the various reasons many of them that you spoke of and others to make that final decision on which one it does move forward if there are large differences in cost versus that you know that will be something the agency will take into consideration if there's a large difference in cost between the two such as the worst case scenario on a digging Hall it would mean less similar properties could be addressed in the state and that would be of concern to to the state but just a little bit on process we are looking to put both of them forward to bids so um earlier was mentioned by one of the city council members the the high cost potentially on vegan Hall and that is because we have to look at it from what we have access to and our ability to travel on the road then if there are cost savings or the like that's the beauty of sending out to the bid before going to the legislature so we can get the true lowest possible cost for that to go before the the legislature and the governor to make those determinations so we understand that is a broad range and you know once that broad range is shrunk we'll have a better feeling too as an agency on where to go on that Madam mayor follow up on that okay you said there's a cost because you have to travel on the roads but as I look at the plan put forward down there that would all be on private property contiguous we wouldn't have to go on any public roads yeah mayor in in city council members for the digging off it were to go to another landfill let's say if it was one close by there's been talks of some third parties saying that it could be cheaper to go an Overland route but as we put together our estimates that's not something the state has access to and so we can't bring that into consideration now that is a cost savings that could be bid and and see it realize then but at this point that's not something we can estimate so can you clarify something for me then if if you can't put in consideration and these these group bid it using the land they have to come up with numbers to go on the road even though they don't have to go on the road foreign City Council Members the whoever bids can choose however they want to do it so we'll put out specs for the digging Hall saying what we need to do to be protective human health in the environment and what the condition of the site needs to be as it's left afterwards how they do it um in terms of where they're taking the waste to what landfill what type of trucks they use what roads they take that's up to them but some of the things that have been talked about and and the ideas that there might be cost savings are not things that we can propose right now because we can't estimate what those are because they're not something we have an ability to know what that is because we don't have they're not tangible things that the agency can estimate so you wouldn't prevent them from proposing staying on private property the whole way then Marion City Council Members correct we would not prevent them to do that whatever they come forward is their way to do it as long as it's protected human health and the environment and it meets all of our bid specs we would allow it thank you okay Mr Schleck um would like to speak to the council um and Mr SEC you may want to unmute yourself and uh are you joining us on Zoom Megan can you invite him in can you hear me now we can hear you but we can't see you uh can you see me now ah well now we can see you now we can see you very good WN you're unmuted good evening and thank you for joining us thank you madam mayor and members of the council um I think some of you know but maybe not everybody knows um I represent the um owners of freeway landfill and we thought it was important to weigh in tonight uh to talk with the city about um some of the plans that are being put forth for the freeway site um what's interesting is that many of the council members stole a lot of my thunder already um I think that um uh it just goes to show that uh the city of Burnsville is well served by its council members with respect to dealing with these kinds of issues um one thing I think that's important to note um and it didn't necessarily come up in the previous discussions is I think it's important for the council to also think about um exactly why this proposal is being put forth by the pollution control agency at all um the pollution control agency has not really documented that there is a problem that needs to be addressed at the freeway site at this time uh there have been uh two previous super fund remedial investigations both of which indicate that there are no measurable impacts to the Minnesota River Current River testing and testing by the owner of the landfill within the last six months have also confirmed that there are no impacts to the Minnesota River at this time uh I think it's important for the council to note that um when this site was originally built it followed all the requirements that were put forth from the Minnesota Pollution Control agency when the site was operated it followed all the rules and did everything it was supposed to do coming back now the mpca and trying to say that there's some risk to human health in the environment is like telling somebody who drives a 1960s car that the car manufacturer has to upgrade all of the seat belts and safety features when the car was originally built if it met with all the requirements of the of the road but now there's a change um some of the other issues that that come up when addressing the issue of freeway landfill have to deal with um simply a roll of the dice or chance on the location of where this landfill actually was located the landfill happened to be close to some important Transportation arteries and was really convenient to most of the Metro at the time that it operated an accepted waste and I think as council person Schultz said I hope I'm remembering this right but frankly the Metro owes the city of Burnsville a big thank you and a big payback for providing this convenient Solid Waste Disposal over the many years in which the city set waste to this site it is unfair now to put additional burden on the city of Burnsville for this um uh even more so than it had already taken in the past uh it's important to understand that some of the decisions of the state of Minnesota have created this problem with respect to the permitting for groundwater removal in the Kramer Quarry which is irreversibly changed the flow of groundwater in the area but for this permitting by the state of Minnesota this may never have been an issue and for the state of Minnesota to come back now at this point and say that the city of Burnsville will be left with a giant Green Mountain instead of developable land is simply unfair and unnecessary as I'll discuss later um throughout the operation of the freeway landfill and ever since it's um ceasing to accept waste groundwater has been monitored around the site and at no time has any of the groundwater testing data ever shown that there's been a release from the landfill that could cause a threat to human health and the environment mpca continues to try to evaluate this with modeling as opposed to actual data um modeling is a unspecific science that can be to some extent um kind of slanted toward the results that a party is seeking to have the outcome for uh we think that it's also important to understand that um the Kramer Quarry has a significant effect on the issues that are being handled at the site and that in order to address the potential risk that mpca continues to raise as an issue all as councilman um all the council people said you have to address all the situation the entire situation down there not just the landfill itself uh one of the other issues that the Minnesota police patrol agency has raised as an issue is the potential migration of landfill gas from the site um frankly um with respect to landfill gas you have a very unique protective situation down there because you have one side of the site that's bordered by the Minnesota River and you have the other side of the site that's bordered by a highway with Redevelopment that does not promote the migration of landfill gas off the site and in fact if you read through the mpca documentation they say right on their website that during their investigation of vapor intrusion they have not found any migration into buildings at this point that would cause any kind of Hazard to the existing buildings that are near the site um landfill gas is something that typically if you talk to experts in the area and I think if you look on the mpca website you'll find documentation that says that a landfill generates amounts of large amounts of landfill gas over maybe its first 20 years after it's closed this site has been closed for over 30 years and the amount of landfill gas expected to be generated is minimal uh in the future uh I think that um if you look at the various proposals that mpca has put forth with respect to the dig in line options and the Dig and haul options it appears to us that the decision with respect to dig in line was made well before the investigation was even started and that in some cases the investigation has been tailored quartz dig in line and the digging Hall option has not been adequately evaluated by the Minnesota police control agency you can look at the sheer volume of documents on their website and as presented to you all tonight why are there three options for dig in line and only one option for digging Hall why are there fancy technical pictures related to dig in line and then there's a comical cartoon truck associated with digging Hall this goes to show that the Minnesota Pollution Control agency had a predetermined or has a predetermined idea of what the remedy for this site should be inconsistent with the needs of the city of Burnsville and frankly inconsistent with the county and the entire area uh the PCA talks about um protection of human health in the environment um and they have indicated as Mr kadelka did tonight that they can't necessarily consider economics to achieve the objective given the minimal current impacts from this landfill the need for Burnsville to have economic viability in this area going forward and the desire by three private companies to help the city it seems that spending somewhere between a hundred and they've projected 500 million dollars to leave the city of Burnsville without the ability to recoup some of this is absolutely ridiculous especially given as some of the council people said the impacts associated with the kovid shutdown of the economy right now um there is um one of the things that the PCA has talked about is a mandate to um try to address this problem for the lowest cost that's not exactly what the law is and I think your City attorney will confirm that the law is that you're supposed to address these issues with the lowest responsible cost not simply the lowest cost and I think that this has fallen far short in the analysis by the Minnesota police control agency um in all cases if you look at their proposed remedies part of The Proposal is to leave some of the waste in place or leave it in the location that it's in now yes they talk about lining the site and yes they talk about constructing it in a modern way but at the same time if you just look at the results the city of Burnsville is still left with a mountain of garbage that is not what any of the council people have expressed as a desire for this particular facility it doesn't seem fair and it doesn't seem right with respect to the city the other thing that um I think has been sorely lacking in the discussion by the um Minnesota pollution control agencies are some of the additional risks associated with the Dig and line option in the Dig and Hall option garbage would be excavated put on a truck and it would go away with respect to the Dig and line option you have multiple handling of this material at various stages in the process it has to be dug up piled up it has to be re um uh spread out in the new facility and in all those cases There's an opportunity for Airborne release of contaminants um secondly um the handling part of any kind of Remedy this digging moving consolidation if you look at the the cost estimates for the projects are typically one of the most expensive parts and so the more times you handle this material the more expensive this is going to be I think it's interesting that some of the assumptions made with respect to the Dig and line options are more favorable towards a lower cost estimate I also think it's interesting to see that it appears the design has moved forward from the 30 stage to the 50 percent stage but yet the cost estimates have stayed the same that doesn't seem correct to me and it seems like those cost estimates may need to be updated um as everybody has talked about there is the loss of potential developable land um at the end of this project in a dig in line scenario however one of the biggest potential benefits to the city with respect to financial recruitment of costs for the city has not even been addressed and that is in a digging Hall situation there's a significant potential for Kramer to recover additional aggregate from beneath the landfill itself once the waste is removed and the cover is removed mining of the aggregate could take place there and that could result in additional revenue for the city of Burnsville again to try to make up for some of the burden that's been on the city over the last few years uh I think that um um by going with the dig in line option the city and the state of Minnesota is potentially simply kicking the can down the road for future elected officials in Burnsville to deal with at some time in the future when this new landfill May Fail or there may be new technology to deal with this landfill that requires additional costs uh as um the council people have identified and and I think that it's important to note um there are private companies out there with other ideas that will provide as much or more protection of human health in the environment than the design being proposed by the city of Burnsville um the the owners of freeway would like to request that the city council pass a resolution directing freeway waste management and Kramer to put together an alternative proposal for presentation to the Minnesota police control agency that frankly addresses the uh potential risks associated with the site and to provide for a dig and haul option of all the material from freeway landfill to include a proposal for Recovery of the aggregate behind beneath the existing freeway landfill to come up with some type of acceptable manner in which the Burnsville landfill by Waste Management could take this material in as people have discussed an on-site digging Hall where you would never have to go on the highway uh fourth to include some type of implementation of the city's Northwest Quadrant small area planning plan uh that could result in significant uh economic recovery for the city of Burnsville and lastly to propose some type of host fees or tax that would result in some of the revenues again being recouped by the city and freeway would like to ask that the city council consider putting together a resolution that says that I could take questions right now if people have any uh and I plan to submit these comments in writing as well okay well Mr slacky had covered grounds that we have already been privy to with you know we've been at this for probably 20 years sir yes so uh and we have a resolution that uh we adopted last year that tells everybody that we prefer the digging Hall and uh so that's where that's at your request for us to have a letter and perhaps a resolution to the PCA I think that'll be something that our staff will work on and that we'll take a look at uh instead of trying to make that decision this evening I have Kara Schultz uh who would like to speak and then Dan Keely Kara certainly thank you uh so I have a question actually uh too for Mr Kadoka um in your report will you put forth the city's position on this to the legislature will that be included in your report uh Mr kodoka you can just unmute yourself sorry there a little technical delay on my own end here so the um Next Step would be coming up with two proposals and bringing those forward to the to the legislature with actual bids and dollar amounts on them and we will be presenting all the information whatever any entities position is and I think it will be a great opportunity too or the legislature and others to hear directly from the city um whether it's Burnsville Bloomington or other interested parties we can definitely make sure that we have always said that it is the cities and all of our conversations excuse me in all of our conversations with legislators including the um uh chair of the various committees that it is the city of burnsville's preference by far for a dig and haul and so we've we've made that clear and we'll continue to do so okay very good thank you thank you oh did you have a follow-up okay um so when you present that report and you do the cost also be calculating in there the um possible tax revenue that could be recouped so that people can see which ones are a net loss and net gain and at what point how many years it would take to get to that point to that net gain or net loss yeah I would add to that uh Kirk uh when you're doing that you know because people um one of the things is if we do a dig and haul how long of a process is that before you can get to development so you know is it five years ten years 15 years 20 years what's what is that so I think that's something that would also would be useful information so Dan Keeley I believe council member Schultz asked Mr kadelka a question oh yeah okay Kirk mayor and committee members we won't be doing our own tax numbers at all we would be relying on the cities we've been working closely with the city to help us get those numbers we're just not done the best capability to do that we think actually the city and county would have better numbers so we're going to rely on those numbers we'll conclude that forwarding that on and what is your estimate uh my follow-up question to Karis is what's the estimate uh once we go through the legislative process to get to development with the digging Hall chair uh Ameren committee members I think there's two parts to the there's one the logistics and how long it takes in construction and we've you know can estimate anything from three to four on one end of the spectrum up to possibly eight years depending on the project the other will be funding mechanism too if bonding dollars are used there are restrictions that are put in place as a result of that versus if other sources of funding would be addressed those are all good questions and a number of things that Mr Schleck and the city council members and you mayor have brought up are things that will be included in future steps at this point we're just trying to narrow down as we move forward and look at these two and where to spend the time to develop um different cost options and bid processes okay and Dan Keeley thank you madam mayor all over my hand there uh one question for Mr Schleck or just a comment um I'm looking for you covered a ton of territory you covered a lot I appreciate your comments a lot of good stuff um I'm anxious to see your resolution and you can work through the council uh on that if you'd like you can reach out to any one of us um we also have the ability to develop resolutions and bring them to staff to polish up to be able to consider as a council uh Mr kadelka I I gave you a prep earlier so I want to ask you some of those questions that I asked you earlier so we can the right everyone else can be involved in in the in the Q a and learn from it as I did so I apologize in advance to be redundant but um um I think at the end of the day I really do truly believe that that both the mpca the city the county the state the landowner kmm and waste management all want the same thing and that's clean up the landfill protect our water supply and leave a development that that can be a phenomenal Gateway into our city um the and and I think you've heard from the council now that it's really really clear that it's really all about digging Hall period um to achieve our plan of digging Hall uh to the shortest possible landfill which is uh the Waste Management landfill across kmm's property um we need the mpca's commitment to move through Waste Management's con uh to completion before they are forced to shut down due to capacity um can you Enlighten us on because these these projects I know we're talking about just the landfill cleanup and these options but it is so directly connected and dependent uh the best possible solutions dependent on Waste Management getting some additional capacity to take this garbage can you comment on the the con process and when you believe it'll be open and how long that process will take to give us a sense of a timeline I'm married and City Council Members regarding con just one clarifying point this project would not need con to move forward this is something that would just need a permanent expansion and and of course then their environmental review to be done but I understand your point the city council member Kelly about the facility being there to be able to accept waste and your tie there to a certificate of need so the certificate of need process is does have in the southwest policy plan the Metro solid waste policy plan some things that need to happen first and the one thing that right now is the remaining piece is that the restriction on disposal is met which means that the waste energy facility servicing the metro area are at capacity and so right now we do that quarterly we check in with the counties and the waste energy facilities and that and we're doing that for the first quarter to see what that looks like we've heard back from some counties on those reports still waiting on a couple more and then the other piece is there is a ongoing lawsuit between the state waste management and then BFI Republica the Inver Grove facility there which is in court and we're working on that to bring a resolution to it and hopefully that will occur soon so we are moving forward in that regard um I know you didn't ask this specific piece but it's another key part is before any certificate of need decision can be made the supplemental environmental impact statement needs to be done so I just want to quickly talk about that timeline also thank you we are continuing to work with Waste Management on that and there's a couple components they're working on that one that's sent uh into the agency here will take us a couple months to pull that together and then send that out for public comment so I know waste management is working very hard on those items and we're anxious to see what when those come in and then be able to turn around so there's a number of moving Parts on this um do you have a follow-up yeah sorry I have a few questions I apologize remember I didn't set that up I just have a a handful of questions that I want to uh okay because I have other council members and a staff member who uh who have their hands up so I understand uh I'll let you know when I'm finished thank you um the um the the seis and thank you for touching on that Mr Delco that's that's obviously a part of the process and um we um we want to make sure obviously there's the clock is ticking as I mentioned Waste Management versus sanitary landfill has a defined uh available permitted capacity which um the it is not a very long period of time it's uh it and I think it's now under two years but we don't know what the covid uh impact has been on garbage collection and and subsequent landfill deposits and and how that is affecting that but um do you uh I believe the last I heard maybe you know I'll ask you that question do you know what their uh projected um capacity would terminate how many months from now or years at this point I don't have an estimate I think I'd heard from them at one point is this goes back a while so I don't know how uh but it was under two years so is it it may be more like a year and a half maybe at this point but do you have an idea of whether the sais the con and all other steps that have to be followed is it realistic for us to expect that they can be completed before uh Waste Management landfill reaches that capacity point where they would have to then shut down before they're re-permitted to take on more and city council members I think that's hard to say I don't know what their current forecast of length of of operation um I do know they have rearranged how some of the waste flows into the facility and whether that has extended the life or not I don't know the um the key dates that will be driving those regulatory decisions you talked about is a supplemental environmental impact statement and that's good once we get the materials in from Waste Management it'll take a couple months for the agency to finalize and then send out for a public comment period I think that's one key set of dates the other one and I was able to pull up in between here you'd ask some more on timelines for con when the agency opens it up it does open it up for 180 days for folks to submit a coin application and then final decisions are made after that so the sooner we can open that up the better that is dependent on restriction on disposal being met by the landfill servicing the metropolitan area and so those um you know do bring out the schedule towards the end of this year early next year if things were to you know um open up and we get the information from waste management or or the c-line processor to open up that's a kind of a rough timeline right now thank you um offhand do you know approximately how much garbage comes from Hennepin County that currently is deposited into the Burnsville sanitary landfill I do not we have those records but I just don't have them with me would you would you uh be willing to venture guess that it's fairly substantial if not the majority of the garbage that goes into ursul Santee land for actually comes from north of the river no I don't know and I would hate the hazard I guess okay um I uh I've been I've been told by some some sources that it is it's the it's a big contributor um that kind of hits on that thank you for the metro area that councilmember Schultz um Bloomington who has uh thankfully offered up support in her background they've noted that they support uh digging Hall that they don't want to see a green pyramid on the Eastern side of Burnsville uh nor the western side uh based on their prior position with the expansion of the landfill but we appreciate our Burnsville neighbors uh support in saying that that's probably not a good idea to have a green pyramid uh in Burnsville right across the river right next to the highway so we appreciate their their concerns and and their their weighed in on it um excuse me um I believe council member Schultz asked you this uh but uh this gets to those dollar amounts um will the bids be I guess maybe I'll rephrase that question when will the process be put out for bid where we'll have some hard numbers rather than these estimates on each of these options preferably digging Hall only is the only one we're interested Marin and City Council Members a goal here is to think of this as two sides of a bracket we've got the side of the bracket already for the digging Hall we have that up on our website including a diagram just like we do for the data lines comparable diagram on our website we need to finalize what the one moving or should we say advancing on the other side of the bracket that they can in line bracket and then the goal is with that information is to start working on bid documents but we also need to have access to the property to move forward without access to the property the it doesn't make sense to go forward with a bid because bids are only good for so long so that's something that still needs to be determined and I know it was mentioned earlier legislation that's before the legislature that was not enacted this year we would likely pause for a year on our activities for this project until that could be completed so the best case scenario is our hope is to move forward with all those components and be able to have bids in the January time frame open up bids and then have that for the legislative session it's an aggressive timeline and um but that is what we're looking at right now obviously other things could play a role in it but I work getting close to being able to put together that big package the uh information in our background shows some estimated costs is that what you're referring to that's on the mpca website for digging Hall that the 145 to 235 at the low end and 49 to 795 at the high end are those numbers solid is to the to the best engineering guesses or engineering estimates uh is that where those have come from and that you reference there on the mpca website so chair and committee members in the memo and that we've got an estimate of 165 through 538 is the most up-to-date numbers I have my colleague with me here um if he could help Cliff to talk a little bit about what the kind of the plus and minus on those are because they are still designed but that's our estimate and the real big differences that drive that air what type of local or state fees are applied to the project yeah depending on where things may go there are shorter travel distances that you mentioned and so that's what helps create that Spectrum so if it's okay I'm sure if I could ask some help from a colleague there just to talk a little bit more on on that estimate for the big and home okay Cliff yes thank you I'm here and city council members for this opportunity to talk about this I the the estimates are the range is really covering the The Tipping fees so the disposal fees that would go along with that waste disposal so on the low end there is that assumption that that most if not all of those fees would be waived on the higher end is the assumption that all of all of those fees would still apply to to the waste at whatever facility it did ultimately end up at so on the ground of that the handling of the materials every permitting everything else that would go into that it is it is the same it's really the the range of cost comes from from the unknowns as far as those those typical fees go thank you um the 165 number that Mr kadaka referenced that is your low end digging Hall with the assumption that the uh host fees would be waived it's correct can we get a copy of that estimate and the workup because that is about that is significantly higher than some numbers that have been discussed going back over the last year and I I just want to make sure that that we we really understand what goes into that 165 minimum number because it's it's dramatically higher than what um anything I've seen to date and heard um the smallest footprint in the lowest height options where they start in the 68 to 80 range that's the number of what I've been hearing is feasible with a digging Hall across kmm's property into Burnsville sanitary landfill with waves with fees waived so the 165-ish range is really way out there and I'm curious I'd like to see exactly where those numbers are coming from what's the cost for the trucking the time the labor everything because boy that's a that's a that's a Grand Canyon separation between that that number that's being presented and and what I've seen previous and heard so I I want to make sure that all of these numbers are um factual in their engineering estimations and the the numbers I'm seeing now on this document for dig in line seem to have shrunk a little bit on the low end and the digging Hall seemed to be going up so I'd like to understand why they're migrating in opposite directions could we get a copy of that full report is that something that's publicly available yeah Jenny is saying that so Dan is are there other questions so that I can move on there are other folks who also want to speak I know that I've been occupying Mr kadelka for a long time and I even had the benefit of the time on the phone thank you very much Mr Patelco I appreciate your answers you're Frank uh and honest and and giving me uh your opinion wherever you can uh and um uh there's a couple of the questions that I think we can address later that I don't want to take up any more time but thank you so much this has been a very very informative and useful meeting tonight as we get obviously our fingers deeper and hands around this uh project a little bit more um but um I appreciate it thank you okay uh council member Vince Workman foreign if you can just um simplify the timeline for me a little bit better assuming that the plan for digging Hall is to bring it across km and over to bsli the con process is not done but the bids are anticipated to be received by January of 2021 so there's some overlap there is that going to be a concern for the Dig and haul option and I I know you you can't put your eggs in that basket because it's got to go to bid so let's assume that that is the option um are those two timelines going to interfere with each other share excuse me mayor and city council members I think the the bigger time thing would not be con to look at com would not be needed for this project it would be if they had the permitted space so there would be the supplemental Eis the when that's done and when their permit could come in um to to do take that waste if if a company is interested in doing so Waste Management just on the bid pieces oh we would have a bid come in in January the legislature we wouldn't expect the earliest they would give us a funding decision would be end of May the traditional end of the legislative session and the money would be available probably July 1st so there's additional time beyond that too before we could move forward and then you know I on how that's framed up in terms of The Works being done and I think Cliff could say if there's other things that would need to be done before we started actually moving ways to across to any facility okay and if I may ask one more follow-up question okay um on the public input website it does say that the mpca intends to present the option to the legislator at the beginning of 2021 um I'm assuming with bids in hand um when can we expect to see an RFP with the specifics for um private companies that would like to bid on the Dig and Hall option Marion and City Council Members the goal would be to give them um and I could turn this over to Cliff some more on the timing but again it for the bids to go out too we also have to have some type of agreement and acknowledgment that we'll be able to actually do the work on the property whether that's a binding agreement with the property owner which we've reached out to have conversations with them again or or the other options that are granted to the mpca by the legislature um if it if those need to take up so there is the possibility we may need to pause if we cannot come to an agreement with a landfill owner and if the legislation that previously mentioned was not enacted this session so that would throw off part of the schedule and um mayor if I could pass it over to Cliff to just talk about a little bit on what what the RFP when it would come out how long it would be open I know he's been doing some of that thinking already on that okay cliff um we would we would probably for a project of this size we would Target a 60-day bidding window so um to have that ready jet bids due January 1st that would push that that RFP to be released right around the the first part of November and then based on those results it would depend on on the contractors bidding how long they would be able be willing to hold that price you know typically we we build in 30 to 60 days to hold that price um oftentimes contractors are willing to hold that for for longer and especially on a project of this magnitude I think there would be some flexibility there okay so November is our kind of our key assuming PCA can gain access to the property and come to an agreement with the property owner um in the Stars aligned November would be the beginning of the RFP process should there be one correct thank you okay uh Jenny um just a couple follow-ups from a couple of questions ago um I know you had asked Madame mayor about the timing of development and what development Could Happen um in the PowerPoint and in these revised numbers on the digging Hall it's three to five years I think Kirk said plus or minus a couple there but also I just wanted to throw in there if there is an opportunity to mine The Rock I believe we had we had and previously told to us it could be a couple decades of mining so development Waste Management uh What uh um kmm wants to do so if that happens I just want folks to know it would be much longer than just removing the waste there's the the mining opportunity um also just want everyone to know there is there are revised numbers on the npca website so what is in your packet is old information it was updated as a Friday so the cost numbers have been updated um I will send that PDF of the bar report out to you it was in the link that Melanie sent out to you um yesterday but if you want a PDF I'm happy to share that so that's all I have okay and uh commissioner Workman uh wants to speak uh commissioner welcome in uh Megan can you move her into the main room please and then commissioner Workman do you please uh turn on your video and unmute okay I'm not muted can you hear me we can hear you but we can't see you well right now that's a good thing because I know you've been on Zoom meetings with us well you know what I look like happy yeah okay there you are all right um I just wanted to answer first of all and thank you for allowing me to that this opportunity to speak um to council member keeley's question about how much waste comes into Dakota County 80 percent of the waste that comes to our landfills is not generated by Dakota County um so there's that one and then I just had a question for Mr kadelka um and I and maybe something to clarify uh Dakota County has two well there are two active landfills in the metropolitan area and they both just happen to be in Dakota County um and I thought I heard you say that if this was a digging Hall opportunity that the waste would not necessarily go to bsli did I hear you correctly Mr kydelka Mr Kadoka the Marin City Council Members it would go to where Whoever has the the bid so there may be multiple um third parties at bid and again I want to talk in generalities and third party and not create any we're not working with any one party over the other just to make sure that it's an open thank you okay because my the I was going to my next statement was going to be that um uh Pine bin has limited airspace and I believe it's less than uh what is that bsli and any they I don't believe they would have the capacity to take uh the waste from freeway um that's assuming they even wanted to take the waste from freeway so um that was my statement on that and then I I know I beat you over the head with this constantly and I'm this is one more opportunity for me to do that Mr kadelka but um to me the certificate of need goes hand in hand with um removing um the waste from freeway landfill I know you disagree with me but every time I hear you try to separate the two I'm going to be right behind you trying to put the two back together so uh that was just my statement to you sir is that um it's my humble opinion that the two go hand in hand and should never ever be separated and um that is all I have to say right now Madame Marin and thank you again for the opportunity to speak and I'm shutting my camera off right now well thank you for joining us uh I'm going to go to Mr fidelka and then Kara Marion City Council Members I appreciate the conversation here and I understand and respect the city's position uh to necessarily pick a dig in in line option um I understand that and that's the position I I do want to maybe throw out one other thing and maybe it doesn't work either but I just want to throw it out there would there be certain things that if the agency was it's making its decision on dig in line that might be more important to the city without taking an option on one of them so we've um for instance there are real differences in the size of the landfill and how big it would be over its um I think about 60 to 55 foot difference between the two different vegan line options so if that's a high priority or the amount of developable space those kind of things I think would be maybe that's a way that City could determine's comments without actually saying one or the other big in line just an option I wanted to throw out there okay thank you Cara uh so I'll answer his question first and then I will give my comment uh no um there there is not dig in line in any way shape or form is utterly absolutely 100 unacceptable uh a comment I wanted to make about if there is Rock mining that goes on underneath when hopefully we do dig and haul um we have already heard from from the mining company that one thing that they would they would look at doing area moving it back storing it rather than just removing and grinding right on that particular site and they said if they were able to do that we would be able to develop within I believe okay you're going on and off care oh sometimes we can't hear you um better okay so the mining company said that for if they were to mine underneath that piece of property they would pull all the rock out pull it back and store it and then grind it up for their purposes rather than pull a little bit grind pull a little bit right did that that piece of property would be able to be developed within a couple years two to three and not looking at decades so that is a possibility just throwing that out there that that is information that that we have been presented before okay very good let's see I have uh Dan Keely thank you madam mayor Mr kadaka just so I understand you because I I want to make sure that we're very clear on this could you rephrase your previous question to the council about maybe looking at it in a different way Marin city council members uh yes I um at the end of the day the agency does need to make a decision here and understand that ultimately that digging Hall is the interest of the city it's just as we go about making our decision um it would be good to know what are some things that are most important to the city in terms of uh in simple terms a smaller Hill versus a larger Hill if it or more developable space over less what things you would like to prioritize um I think that would maybe be helpful for us as we go about and have to make the decision again I fully understand and respect the city's decision that digging all is the first option it's just that I would hate for the mpca or if the legislative feature decided to fund to dig in line that the option picks may end up being the one that the city might least like if that worst case scenario in your in your perception is selected and that that's all it is your choice I just was trying to think of another way to do it that might um relieve some of your concerns well from my perspective we've been given four options um three versions of really the same thing so it kind of comes down to two options one option has a slight different variation but it's really just two options and I believe we've made our choice the option of digging a hall is the choice of the city and of the county and that that negates those other three as even being on the table uh from our standpoint okay um let's see I think Mr Schleck you had your hand up did you take you took it down so okay so um members of the council I think we answered the uh questions that uh Jenny had presented to us uh and Kirk was what's another option and um we have already um passed a resolution with the uh preference that we have so that's where that's at and I know that Kirk you want to know whether what's but there doesn't seem to be an appetite as you see it's all about development what is developable land for us moving to the Future so that's where we're at with all of that it's always about development and how quickly we can get to it so this is the option with digging Hall that we think that we can get at a return in terms of Economic Development so is there anything else Jenny and Melanie that you need from us no matter mayor we have the direction for the comments to send to the mpca or the comment I'll say to put in the letter so we're clear okay very good thank you so much everybody for your input thank you for being with us Kirk and Cliff we really appreciate your time with us this evening and uh Dan Schleck good to see you again it's been a long time you go in and out uh with Mike and sometimes you're there sometimes you're not so but it's good to see you you're back okay uh members of the council I have gotten a request for a 10 minute break uh and um Jay you're going to let us know uh when um when we need to get back I see that our time is 806 right now and we will get be back in 10 minutes thank you everyone see you in 10 minutes Mr Peterson hello that's Mercury uh Megan are we off the air audio wise or are we still alive you are still alive so we are meeting everyone for the recess time thank you can I call you on your office line are you at your office or on your cell um I'm at my office yeah okay I'll give you a quick call that's good five minutes three minutes two minutes the host has stopped my video for me huh Megan you cut me off the host has asked you to start your video thank you Madam mayor I went into Ficus and fig and bought some Abdallah chocolate covered graham crackers because I wanted to give her some business and uh I just saw the Kare 11 coverage of the Burnsville touch of country and ficusin fig covering their opening um lots of cities doing resolutions to recognize the constitutional right to open their businesses back up and tomorrow's announcement better be good news or there's going to be a lot more of that going on 30. 30 seconds I'm gonna open this up now and councilmember Keely we are on the air uh it is now 8 16. and I reconvene our work session uh let's see we're missing uh councilmember Gustafson sorry I forgot to start my camera okay and now the next item is item number three and this is the covid-19 response consider uh prorating uh certain business license fees and Melanie this is your item yes Madam air um can we put the PowerPoint up thank you okay um so before you tonight uh Madame mayor and Council we would like to discuss with you some business license fees and prorating bills next slide please when um uh covid-19 was first realized and we were making some operational changes early in um March we restructured our liquor license payment uh program to have a payment plan recognizing the impact that the virus was having although not understanding you know the longer term impacts so next slide please so as we think about the renewals for which liquor license tobacco and massage all have mid-year renewals it is staff's um thought that we should consider some sort of a prorated component to these licenses and so what you have before you is the on sale liquor license uh um Financial impact I'll call it this is on sale only off sale has been able to be full operation during the governor's executive order so you will see um with the with the table before you if there is a one month waiver fees there's about a twenty two thousand dollar impact between on sale and wine for a two months that would be about 45 000 and for three months waived it would be about 68 000 lost revenue for the city but impact recognizing the impact of the closure on our business Community next slide when we think about our massage license that impact is different we have fewer and the numbers are less so if we were to waive one quarter of those fees that impact would be about 6600 for those um massage Enterprise and massage therapist licenses next slide please and for tobacco licenses there are eight licenses in the city the impact of a waiver um for those would be 853 dollars um so next slide please so with that um as presented before the council if we were to look at a one-quarter where the prorating license fees that would impact about a 75 000 Revenue decline for the 2020 year happy to stand for any questions for our city manager Melanie um I have Dan Keely Dan thank you madam um I've been um thinking quite a bit about these license fees that are hitting our on sale liquor most specifically um the bars and restaurants that have been shut down and still don't have any idea when they're going to be able to open back up this is um hammered them just worse than any other industry I mean it's it's hurt a lot of Industries but Unfortunately they salons um theaters have been disproportionately hurt because [Music] um unlike the Walmart or the grocery store or the hardware store or many other winners and losers that were picked by the governor with these executive orders um they have been a loser continually over and over again um I I think I my preference would be to do more than just the one or two or three months and and at the very least I think we have to consider waiving fees for every month that they had to close and couldn't even generate any Revenue I I can't imagine us charging him a dime of license fees for a day or a week or a month that they were unable to open because of an executive order but I'd like to go a little further I think they have suffered more than uh any other business and um we also have to keep in mind that all the states that have allowed restaurants and bars to reopen have only done so at about 25 to 55 50 capacity and um that business model does not support that the ones that have opened up have um they're basically opening up to lose more money because of their margins and that business model doesn't support 50 capacity in their dining rooms and so even when they're given a green light to reopen they're going to be so restricted that they're going to be financially harmed until such time that they can get back to 100 capacity and then even then they have to have people willing to come out and go sit in the right and fill it up which we don't even know the answer to that so I would I'm going to be very bold with this proposal what's a word that we're like we like to use now because it's part of our our byline of our city I'm going to propose that we waive all remaining fees for the bar restaurant on sale liquor licenses for 2020. fully recognizing that that idea has a significant cost in Lost Revenue to the city um I certainly am open to other ideas but um I think that's how bad the situation is for those specific businesses and because this license is so expensive uh the liquor specifically uh the beer wine is not as much but the liquor is an extraordinarily expensive license and these businesses are extraordinarily being hurt in 2020 because of covet to no fault of their own and we are no dip and when it comes back to that lost Revenue honestly we're like any other business we're going to have to cut we're going to have to cut costs we're going to have to find ways to save money because we're already getting um hurt by just like every business out there is being hurt by it unless you're in grocery and in Mass merchandise and hardware and a few others but so uh I'd like to open up the discussion I really believe that's the right thing to do for our uh Burnsville Liquor on sale liquor license holders but uh thank you for the entertaining my idea okay uh Vince your hand was up and then it's down do you want to speak or not um I do I just wanna chew on councilmember keeley's proposal for a minute I'm not ready to speak to that quite yet um or I can but somebody else would like to speak first well I'm going back to Melanie and um you can um think about what your your thoughts are about this item uh Melanie thank you Matt and Aaron Council from a point of context the liquor licenses are a media renewal so it's a July 1st through June 30th so I just want to be clear with what council member keeley's proposal is is it for a I I'm not charging the license fees for the month of June through December or is it going back to uh March do you want to make sure we're clear on what the what the expectation is or what the proposal is for discussion um in my mind the idea was waive them for the the current cycle which would actually go you know that's the 2020 fees that they pay that carries them into the uh so yeah it's it's it's a 12-month remaining fees is what uh is in my head when I said to the rating of 2020 apologize because that was I can see where that would lead someone to believe that it's just maybe through fees applied toward uh to the end of December but if there was six months of fees left then if they had an 8 100 invoice that they would essentially be paying four thousand and fifty dollars for the first six months of 2021. I'm suggesting that we waive it entirely except for what they've paid to Pro get the process started uh you you you had presented two-piece two thoughts one was to waive the piece for uh the days that were they have not been in operation that was the that's the proposal that we're looking at from staff yeah I'm taking it uh quite a bit further and saying I want to say that we waived the fees uh to the end of June weigh the fees for the rest of your any outstanding owed let's say they they paid five hundred dollars we're a fiscal year with the with the fees so we renew in June yes June to June to June 30th so yeah okay so the fees that if I I'll use my example if I was an 8 100 liquor license holder and I've paid 500 to get the process started I would have a balance due of 7 600. I'm saying waive that and next June they would or July 1st whatever they they would then be looking at the 2021 fees if we if we change them if they would be looking at paying 8 100 for the then coming uh 12-month cycle Dan Gustafson thank you madam mayor so so I get this right Dan you want to carry this to next year so you're talking about a 275 000 reduction in in Revenue to the city less the amount that they've paid but yes it's a very large amount it's about a quarter they haven't paid it yet because it's not due until July so so it would be 275 000 we take out of the budget on this in theory yes that would be the most yeah thank you okay so the other point of clarification is that on the tobacco license uh reduction is only for those that were not allowed to be open gas stations and grocery stores were allowed to be open and they sell tobacco right so are you going to waive them as well no I'm only speaking about the liquor uh the on sale liquor licenses you're only speaking of the on sale liquor license for the restaurants my proposal is specific to the restaurants on sale liquor license holder okay restaurants restaurants and bars okay I don't see any other hands up or any other so um one of the things that we have to think about is that we're coming up to budgets and I'm going to commend our staff Melanie and the staff and being very judicious about what we're doing and the expenses that we have incurred with regard to this crisis and then we have to look to the 2021 budget and I would say that at this point uh what staff is proposing is fair and just to the restaurants and uh our bars we're waving the uh fees for the times that they have been out of business so as I looked over all of what staff has done it appears to me and I agree with them that what they are proposing is fair and just and we've got a lot of work to do with the budget and that's coming up next month and that's going to be a lot of work fifteen thousand dollars for mowing Kara said was a big it's it's a big thing so this is seventy five thousand dollars that we're prorating so I I commend staff for the work that they've done uh I've got some hands up now I'm going to Vince first thank you um and I would also like to commence staff that this is before us because this is a good thing um this is a good idea and I commend councilmember Keely is even more aggressive approach to this um because these businesses are suffering and if we have the ability to help we should um one uh option I'd like to look at is um is it too much to ask to review this you know quarterly because we don't know where we're going to be in two weeks oops I don't know why my video turned off um I don't know where we're gonna be in two weeks from now I don't know where we're going to be a month from now um if we're going to be back to business in October um with modified safety precautions and those things um it's just it's it's hard to know um definitively where we'll be by June next year so it's an aggressive ask based on a lot of unknowns but I do like that I would like to keep the foot on our foot on the gas to be conscious of this but maybe figure out a way to review it um as progression is made at the state and federal levels okay Cara if it's not too much to ask well it's a thought on the table for discussion Vince Cara uh I would also look like to look at those quarter by quarter I support the present proposal to do this first quarter and then to look at this quarterly um reason being we can't we can't collect for something that isn't possible um if if they're not able to open then why is there even a license for that uh so I don't feel right that we're collecting for something that isn't even possible um I do want to look at this quarter by quarter because um I mean you you look at Europe and they're like look at us we got everything under control because we're freaking awesome and yeah okay they're starting to roll back into lockdowns again um so I mean I don't know I don't know what's gonna happen um you know as of presence our governor has said he will not put a date on restaurants and bars and and you know other types of shops and all that kind of stuff um so you know these businesses that they can't even plan um and is also not rolling out ruling out that we will have rolling lockdowns and this is something that could last for the next couple years um so everything is very uncertain so yes quarterly I would like to look at this quarterly I support this presence um present proposal by staff and I thank them and I totally understand what council member Keely is saying hopefully get that okay thank you I'm going to go to Joel then Dan Gustafson and Dan key hey mayor and Council the only concern I have of looking forward on your license fees is the unintended consequence we have 45 applications if the council doesn't have fees going forward I think we'd have many more prospective businesses seeking a new license I would endorse the uh observation for the council to look at this and judge it based on what the city's administrative enforcement cost has been looking back and if we haven't incurred the cost of oversight and enforcement and administration uh it does make sense to do the rebate or the remittance on the existing licensees but as council member Schultz indicated we don't know what the it's going to look like going forward and what that percentage should be in anticipation of that and I'm concerned that that you're setting a potential uh unlevel playing field for new applications and new establishments rather than the incumbent establishments uh and so I would endorse the staff recommendation to look backward and the council's observation to to keep staff giving you quarterly reports a kind of a look back and see what our expenses has been and then rebate or remit the fees uh proportionate to those expenditures okay uh and that's great that I think when I uh listen to you and also staff's report uh it considers all of that so um Dan Gustafson thank you madam mayor um I can I can support the the quarterly as well um also I don't know if we can do this or not but maybe fees aren't even payable so they we know they can open we can start processing their licenses so that they're ready to go when they're told they can open then their fees become due at that time yeah but we do it on a quarterly basis and kind of if we're going to back date a little bit they're going to have a little credit there anyway so it's a I think we could work that through yeah it's reasonable uh Cara and then Dan K you just keep pushing me to the bottom I'm just looking at the hands that are I've had my hand up before Jane Gustafson put us up or chair Porter's back up and you still keep putting me at the end of the list why are you penalizing me in the corner in uh okay I yield the floor to council member Keeley okay councilmember Keely I'll go to you and then back to Cara thank you madam mayor I could wait it didn't matter I just wondered why it came out the floor bottom of the list like anybody else want to jump in front um I want to and I'm I'm I I like that idea of a quarterly review but no payments due I mean these people are closed they don't have money to write a check so part of the reason that I'm picking on helping this group of on sale liquor license and not others how many businesses do we require an 8 100 annual license for them to do their business there's we have thousands of businesses in the city but we don't require eight thousand dollar licenses from anyone except liquor license this is the one situation where the business that's been forced to close has this huge fee for a license to do that business with the city we have a we have some that much smaller fees I think that tobacco the massage I'm not I don't have quite the concern for those uh but I'm happy to include them into this process I'm just very concerned about our restaurants and bars who have a huge tab pardon the pun for a license to be able to do business but we don't do that with all these other businesses and so this is why I'm focusing it on that discussion and they are the last ones to probably get the right to open by the executive order by the governor and even if they get it they may be reduced to 25 capacity and we've addressed that with our idea and Melanie's executive order dated May 8th when the governor does allow them to open now they can maybe get some of that capacity that's taken out inside they can go outside and recover some of that but they're still not going to get to 100 percent and so it's not going to be easy for them to open their doors and a week later at 25 or even 50 capacity to write a check for eight thousand bucks or even four thousand bucks it's it's it's serious and so let's get serious about trying to give him some help I'm I'm fine as long as they're not having to pay anything we'll review it each quarter and um when when they're open and they're able to business maybe we need to reduce it because their seating has been reduced if your revenues are cut by 75 or 50 percent then why would we charge them a full license fee when they they can't even do a full business so all of those factors come into play with these licenses and uh on sale liquor license holders and their businesses um Melanie uh Madame here I'm sorry I think council member Workman had his hand up before it was and then he went away so you know I took her hand down just messing with the mayor go ahead Melanie go ahead his hand was up and then it went away and I I have my hands up thing right in the front I'm so Melanie you have the floor okay thank you madam mayor and Council we certainly are an unprecedented time so I I think we are very aware of the impact on our business Community we are trying to um put in place some parameters that recognize the hardship that our businesses are going through um from a point of context I think um our liquor licenses have been designed to be um comparable with our Market cities that under our B philosophy which explains why they are where they are uh and they also um typically liquor license fees are higher than massage or tobacco licenses because there are generally more resources that are allocated to those uh so just from a point of context there um I just as we work through the council's recommendation we'll just want to make sure we're very clear about what the expectations are so happy to stand for any further questions I do see more hands up okay Thank You Vince thank you um I wanted to ask Joel about uh appoint councilmember Keely made it it's interesting to me about um is it possible to modify a license on a percentage of occupancy or you know risk factor um I'm kind of looking at this in my insurance lens is that is that legal and if it is is that something that there's grounds to do given the circumstances here mayor council on a look back basis I think you can certainly base a rebate on any of those factors just again one of the concerns about unintended consequences are predicting the future if we look at moving some of the stuff from inside the building out into parking IRAs and patios the nuisance or or overflow conditions might be different in our enforcement and going forward it's hard to anticipate exactly what that would be it's always easier to look back and hindsight's a lot better than the uh perspective view on these things and that's why I think your idea of doing accordingly quarterly look and adjusting based on your experience makes a great deal sense to me okay that's all I have thank you I have a clarifying question Madam mayor for Mr jamnick sure I mean I like what you're dating sorry I like what you're oh I didn't see any other hands up so I I jumped in because I've got a pretty up um the quarterly look back for a rebate would that be the the business may not be paying until the end of the quarter do a look back rebate against or a credit against an amount due and then say okay here's your net due so there's everything after the quarter is over I mean we generally do a a annual fee basis the statute does provide some flexibility for partial payments given the emergency I think that's one of the aspects of the Declaration that allows us to deviate from our arm to set something like that up thank you I think that's a good idea uh Melanie thank you madam mayor um currently with regards to the payment plan that we implemented in March for our liquor licenses when we had to start thinking about renewals we had a minimal um amount for the application to be hidden to be processed as we did not know when they may be able to reopen there is another timeline that we established at the end of June for another payment and then a third payment at the end of September so we would typically collect that entire amount um I believe um what they typically do at a time of renewal and so we've phased that out yeah we would suggest we continue to do that yeah because uh your spreadsheet sorry that's not what we're suggesting here well no the spreadsheet looks at one and the times that the restaurant has been closed whether it's one month two months three months but then uh we're saying that we're also going to continue to evaluate on a quarterly basis Joel is a a quarterly basis so what what staff is proposing here is uh one month two months or three months so it's however many months they've been shut down and and respecting when they open up yeah they open up with 25 capacity I'm not going to vote to say here's here's here's your next four thousand dollar payment against your full license when you've got 25 capacity um this this I the The Proposal as it stands to city manager Melanie Lee's point I'm not I'm saying throw that out that doesn't work we're not going to send four thousand dollar invoices on June 30th to businesses even if they got open the week before I like Mr jamnick's idea of a quarterly review we're not going to require any more payment from them when they get open at the end of that quarter we'll do a look back see what Etc and then uh send them a bill but I I think that bill has to be adjusted Down based on their capacity I mean we can't charge 100 license for 25 seating or 50 seating I don't think that's fair to the business I would never do that to any business uh I'm going to go to Melanie I see Jenny's hand is up too and Dan is your hands still up or do you want to remove your hand okay I'm gonna go to Melanie and then Jenny uh thank you madam mayor I kept my hand up I meant to put that down so we can go to miss Faulkner now okay Jenny uh thank you madam mayor members of the council I just want to let you know maybe this will be helpful but we did have a request I think it came up during last year's budget uh review time from a business to prorate the liquor fees based on the sales volume and so information was provided at that time and I don't believe you chose to take that up but it was based on the amount of sales and we had researched what other cities do so I just throw that out there as as another option for you to revisit well that's something uh that gets at the point of you know what is the capacity in the the sale the capacity that that restaurant or bar uh can seat and what is their sale those are some things uh those factors can be considered as we look at uh the cost of their license that's great Danny I do now that you say that I remember that that's fantastic now but now it it fits right it's a solution that fits the circumstances where it wasn't really deemed needed before well it's reasonable to take a look at all these things in a way that how it impacts them okay um Melanie Joel and Jenny do you have Direction is it clear or unclear well that Amir I wanna I wanna be certain because we did begin the renewal process and so we have been collecting fees again without knowing when any of the orders may change or whatever restaurants may be able to sell alcohol um so I just want to be clear that I'm understanding the council's direction I I believe I heard that we want to do a three-month look back period for which fees would not be charged and we would refund those fees back to those on sale liquor licenses currently licensed liquor licenses and I believe I heard the council must review this on a quarterly basis yes and the third component that I think I'm unclear about is whether between our when we have renewal coming up in July 1st are we charging anything of our licensees to have a new license to have their license renewed or is that going to be something that we would look back and retroactively charge the licenses what I heard is that we have a look back and that they can be rebated for the three-month look back we will we will do that indeed that's what I understood and then uh let's see Dan I I'm seeing you your hand was up before Vince's so oh thank you go Vince go go ahead um well I I the um the discussion is uh and I get how it's you know the years I believe correct me if I'm wrong uh city manager elite were the fees that carried a business through June 30th of this year paid last year in July okay correct so so I would I would say we would take that license amount council member we're going to do a look back on monthly parade so that wasn't actually part of what I was proposing and here's why I'm also looking at it from the cash flow of a business we're not necessarily trying to give back money we collected a year ago we're trying to avoid or delay or reduce any monies that they're going to pay going forward um it because it puts the now legally technically that we may have to do the look back and give them the credit and a rebate simply because that's the way it has to happen but um my idea was the go forward costs would be delayed and reduced or they've paid 500 or 100 so far my suggestion was don't charge any more for the rest of this next 12 month cycle um the idea of going a a quarterly look totally understand because we don't know maybe it'll bounce back and become uh you know by December they'll have 100 capacity and business back to normal then they won't need that relief but until then they would so I like that quarterly review I think we're just talking about how do we execute on this you know do we do the look back and then going forward we just wait right and then assess based on uh to Jenny's point maybe we look at uh uh putting in place that based on percentage sales I'm I'm open to all those but I just wanted to make the point that I wasn't really thinking in this idea that we would go backward and give them a rebate on something that they actually costed out of their business a year ago um it's really it's not pertinent anymore it's really today and then maybe the next six months is what's important but however it has to be done from a legal standpoint uh I'll get out of that um discussion because it it'll have to be that way if that's the case okay Vince so the neck kind of touches on what my question is is the plan to collect the the license in June and then quarterly prorate it back to them or is it to waive the license fee and then prorate the collection of it later down the road and if that's something that needs to be discussed on a staff level I'm fine with that but that's I think one of my last point of confusion is coming in collect and give back or wave and then retroactively collect because I believe that the license fee needs to be paid in full there's no financing on those I'm going um Dan Gustafson had his hand up first but I'm going to go to Melanie Dan if you don't mind because I think Melanie wants to answer that question Vince's question Melanie what you said so we have chosen councilmember Workman to phase it out um into three payment s for the 2020 into 2021 license okay okay so that fee if we if that fee remains as is it would be eighty one hundred dollars collected over a longer window of time the the look back would be an acknowledgment of almost irrespective of when they paid the fees they were unable to be open to no fault of their own through the pandemic and so they would get a refund of you know one month two months it sounds like the council's landing on a three-month look back for that but we would continue we still do need to license our liquor license holders um right now we have no provision for um capacity liquor licenses aren't issued on that but to Jenny's point we could reconsider how that liquor license is calculated it was based on sales or something else but at this point it's a flat dollar if you have an on sale license it's X dollar amount and that's the fee that would be charged we're trying to figure out a way to help soften that um for those those licenses that have been impacted and um any of these are it's simply lost Revenue to the city these these are not considered as covid related expenses um they would not be eligible for any reimbursement at this point so it would just be lost Revenue to the city so um we understand that and we that's why we brought the golden forward on a quarterly basis thank you hope that answers your question absolutely yep okay thank you Dan Gustafson thank you madam mayor I do like the plan of the Restriction the license fees out um I was as we've been going through this whole discussion I was thinking of the look back uh instead of a refund maybe use it more as a credit toward your license fees going forward so when they initially start paying they don't have that out of pocket money right away it gives them gives everyone a chance to kind of get on their feet and kind of get business going and going from there so that's why I kind of like this look back thing because we can give them a credit to kind of stretch it out a little bit better for them and just to get them off the ground to begin with yeah great idea Dan yeah I think that's really a great and it's reasonable reasonable and also kind and compassionate you know that's so um Melanie and uh Joel and Jenny is it clear okay all right hey we're moving right along okay uh could I just ask that once that plan is uh because I was a fairly complicated discussion that plan is put in to document form can we oh it comes back to us it comes back to us for us to review before it's adopted it probably needs to come back to us fairly quickly I would assume because the clock is ticking and yeah so when when the city manager Lee when do you think that would come back to us formally and informally I'm mad am mayor council I think we can so um perhaps as soon as next week's uh cultivating at the very latest in January excuse me the June 2nd meeting yeah okay thank you yeah okay all right we're going to uh item number four not a mayor if I make make a point of clarification I know it wasn't mentioned much but the other license the 25 reduction is uh is okay it's okay it's only the restaurants and bars I just wanted to make sure that that wasn't forgotten thank you bars okay we are at uh item number four and this is the covid-19 response enforcement of the governor's executive order related to essential business uh our police chief Tanya Schwartz and our community development uh director Jenny Faulkner are presenting um there you are good evening hello chief hi chief hi okay um Jenny yes Madam mayor members of the council Tanya and I did work on the background and the PowerPoint but to keep things moving quickly I'm just gonna run through the PowerPoint and then Tanya will stand for probably the majority of your questions so um with that um this is a follow-up from a previous discussion that we had where we had talked about our current enforcement process of the executive orders we are operating on a complaint-based system what happens is our Patrol Sergeant personally goes out and investigates we seek voluntary compliance and then we document um that response and then code enforcement is notified for tracking in our record system we did survey adjacent cities and then some and what we found is that most cities are enforcing through their Police Department with some Community Development involvement and to date our complaints have been on 20 different businesses there have been none in the past couple of weeks since we started to put this together and we have not issued any citations there's a range of options that we can consider when we look at enforcing the executive order we've got a complaint-based approach which is the heimler gentler approach of enforcement and then we have a proactive approach which is um a step up from that I would say so right now we are on the complaint based and there's a range of options within that so we could do something by sending out an educational letter as opposed to an in-person visit that letter could come from a code enforcement staff could come from police could come from the city attorney we could do an in-person visit with code enforcement staff or it with a police Sergeant or police staff like we're doing now that's our current practice the next step is if we get con continued complaints would be to issue a citation or we could take adverse license action which would be the highest level of enforcement oh thank you um next slide oh uh back there we go sorry about that and then the similarly on the proactive approach we could do a letter we could do in-person visits and then the citation and adverse license action an adverse license action would be like on a massage Alcohol Tobacco those that we have licenses for next slide please so some considerations as we look at where we want to land on the enforcement Continuum we do the executive order seeks voluntary compliance and that is what staff has been doing we have a lot of discretion in how we enforce it and discretion in which staff enforces it um interesting thing of note our officers are covered by the covid-19 workman's comp and our other staff are not so there's extra protections that are given for them when they're interacting and enforcing the EO we believe the EOS are easing restrictions as and hopefully that will continue with tomorrow and with that we believe that there's fewer complaints actually than what we've had like I said we haven't had any in a couple weeks and as workplaces open those enforcement issues are enforced by OSHA and Department of Labor and Industry not the city a next slide so well I guess we're we're done um on that so sorry I'm pulling up my PowerPoint um not the one that was submitted here so um this is up for Council discussion if there's any additional information that you need if you're supportive of the approach questions for Tanya Melanie or I or Joel and there was a letter um that we that was provided in the background to send to the governor if that's action that you'd like to take as well yeah I really like the letter um any questions for staff I Tanya did I miss anything nope you covered it thank you yeah members of the council uh if you haven't seen the letter the letter is in our background uh to the governor and it's a draft letter and all of us will sign it and it goes and it is uh to um implore upon the governor to open up so Vince thank you and thank you Janine for the background in the presentation I did read the letter in um happy to see that we're we've put that together so from what I've seen of it I I like it um just as a point of clarification for the conversation up to this point our process has been reactionary complaint based and then sending our police out to educate and obtain voluntary compliance what we're being asked is do we want to stay the course or do we want to change to something different correct that's correct okay um I'm comfortable maintaining complaint based and then modifying down to an educational letter um as we continue to see the restrictions being lifted um I don't know that our PD going out to businesses is necessary as things continue to open back up Dan Gustafson uh I like the background on this uh like the course we're on uh it's uh takes into consideration the our our businesses and our residents and I think we're we're doing things in a very thoughtful way and thank you chief for what you guys are doing out there because it's I think it's working for us okay Cara I would like to note that uh just this evening several communities have not just sent a letter but they have adopted a resolution and it is a resolution um stating that as far as they are concerned their businesses are can and can open all on their own um so I do want to put that out there that there is as of tonight a shift in how some cities are starting to approach this um I will also say that in the upcoming weeks and months and years we need our businesses to be partners which means we need to treat them as partners and they're the ones who are experts in how to in their business their customers how they operate um what safety protocols they could try out we're going to want them to be unleashing their creativity and innovation we want them to be testing out what works and does not work we want that information then to be able to be shared by other businesses so that some really good best practices can be developed and right now we meaning all levels are hampering that development from happening we are developed we are hampering that partnership from happening and I think I think we're the worst for it we're not going to be safer for it we're going to be less safe for it I also think it's up to residents and customers they're going to be the ones that decide if a place really is safe do they feel comfortable do they feel that this is somewhere they want to go and they're going to decide when as well because it doesn't matter when something's opened or closed legally if people don't feel comfortable and don't feel that they can they can trust how that business is operating they're not going to go there they won't they won't go there and you can tell them it's safe all you want um and you can say that they've gone by you know these regulations which have been passed down and imposed on them but if people don't feel safe they don't feel that there's really good best practices in place they're you know they're not gonna go into those places whether it's stores or restaurants or you know whatever that is and I really wish I really wish that we were treating our businesses as partners and that we were working hand in hand with them on what they can do during reopening getting feedback constantly from them on what's working for their employees how do their employees feel about this do their employees feel that this is a good direction that they're going on this particular practice or are they wanting something else and and same with the customers and having that feedback happening constantly because you know this isn't going to be that things reopen and then everything's done that's that's not how things are going to go down and um I think we're missing out and we are I think as a state where we've been I think we've been making mistake I think we have been hampering and not listening to and not involving and not just hearing feedback I mean not involving in real time and having things test out the the very people who could be coming up with the absolute best most safest Solutions um as far as how uh enforcement goes if something is backed whether you use it or not if something is backed with a threat that is either an arrest pulling a license fine that is not voluntary compliance and that is not education I absolutely think our police force is amazing I do not think that they're jerks about this at all but I also don't want us to get I don't want us to to use language to hide what is actually happening and what people are experiencing and have experienced it's it's a warning it's a verbal warning that's that's what it is and when we have closed a business that is a seizing of property and a seizing of property doesn't mean that you have taken it and removed it away and taken it to another location that is a constitutional taking and that is what we're doing and that is what we are taking part in and I get that the intentions are really great but I also don't want to hide from that language either because that's what we're engaged in and as far as businesses who have um who have had a complaint against them and they were spoken to um that is people you know people can see it in the background but I think it's important that people know it was Michael's it was the Burnsville tobacco shop it was Petco it was dreamy lashes it was Red Oak Park pickleball area it was Diane's candles Nicollet tobacco and vaping tobacco e-cig Plus it was infinite vapor Michael's again I'm not sure what the hate was for Michaels but they got it a few times it was the state Sisters Touch of Home it was stower jewelry it was a group home it was a construction crew that was on a group home Michael's again it was Hobby Lobby Diane's candles batting cages it was the Cleaning Authority it was Abdullah candies it was Mary Mother of the church confessions it was the bubble bar and car wash it was the Cleaning Authority the modern Sportsman Bollywood glamor Burnsville smoke shop and the Ridgeview basketball court Townhomes and I I think it's important that um you know that that we acknowledge that those those were businesses and non-business as being the church that you know that people wanted closed for various reasons and whether it was right or not doesn't matter and whether they had to close or they were fine to stay open also doesn't matter uh but I think it's important that we look at this and we acknowledge it and we also start to think about how we as a community build trust with one another and come together and start working together and working in a partnership and that's one of the reasons why I wanted this item first on a round table and now on a work session because this is not over anytime soon and this is an all hands on deck situation and yet we're sidelining some of our best hands so that is my comments on this anyone else okay um councilmember Keeley thank you sorry I I think I thought you were just going around I didn't realize they had their hand up um I um nothing has changed in my position from the last time we discussed this I I do not believe we need to bring our highly talented and needed in other areas police force involved in the enforcement of this I think a visit uh with a flyer dropped off is all we need I do believe that um and you know it's funny the list that you read off council member Schultz you think of those places and then you compare that to the grocery store really how ridiculous and absurd and I said it earlier the governor's executive order has picked winners and losers and that's against the Constitution and the people are now in cities are now and businesses are now rising up saying enough is enough you cannot allow that person to be open because they're large and me to be closed I carry the same products that is unconstitutional and the governor's executive order he may think he's got the power to do it and for a period of time he may have what he needed to apply his powers in more Equitable and fair manners and he didn't he has literally picked winners and losers and there are still losers being you know picked out there and they're rising up and opening the store because they're fed up with the unfair Act of this governor and this state with these executive orders so uh you know I'm I'm as frustrated as they are because I've I've as all of us have probably gotten calls from them um they're desperate and there is a certain amount of individual accountability that we have to expect from everybody and to me individual accountability is not a government program it's not a snitch line it's the personal behavior and choices of every individual person and if they're not comfortable going into a business that has reopened don't go in but this whole rat out your neighbor and rat out these businesses has created an environment that is destroying the fabric of this country the trust that we all have for one another however that trust comes back a hundred percent when they walk into the grocery store doesn't seem to be any problem there germs being passed and touched all day long by thousands of people no problem is emerged but boy that little individual store they'd better stay closed this is just reach absurdity and I think we need to take up that resolution discussion ourselves because I for one have had enough of what has been going on and I am supporting the businesses who are standing up saying before I permanently close and you ruin my life I'm gonna open up and do business just like all the stores that you let open up all along or have opened up since so fortunately I think tomorrow we're going to hear from the governor he's probably going to open up these small customer facing stores Hallelujah but they he's not going to open everybody up and he's probably going to extend the shelter in place longer which is going to hurt our bars and restaurants even more and salons and many other businesses so we're not out of the woods yet but I'm glad that the staff has proposed this letter strongly suggesting that he let every business open um with their preparedness plan with their PPE if necessary it's all there we know how to sterilize our environment more than ever before and by the way just a quick side note for the last many many years um everybody will remember going to a golf outing and one of the gifts in the golf bag was always like a hand sanitizer until excessive hand sanitization was interfering with our body's natural ability to fight off bacteria and viruses we were removing our built-in bodies biological system for how it defends itself and so they they banned them you notice they start suddenly started disappearing and they were required to use different solutions and they had to have less alcohol because it was killing off too many of the good bacteria along with the bad and it caused a different type of reaction in our society and body so and now oh my God you know now everybody has to have hand sanitizer on 10 times a day um so there's a lot at at play here that I think is important for all of us to remember back to the original question I I please I I just do not want our PD involved in these enforcements um I really don't I think uh a flyer dropped off is all it's necessary and I hope that the opening of these small customer facing businesses will relieve some of this snitch pressure or this this issue because it'll then leave only bowling alleys movie theaters um um salons bars and restaurants they're going to be the last Bastion for the most part I think there's a few other odd businesses in there unusual um large Gathering type of businesses but fortunately we'll at least have allowed everyone else to open with all of these steps in place and um and I hope we're past this whole snitch phase because it's disgusting absolutely disgusting thank you okay um council members um so what I'm hearing is that uh drop off the letter uh and um because LPD is involved in uh checking in uh Joel and Tanya the oath of office that our officers take I I just want to make make sure that we are complying and making sure that our officers they take an oath of office that says that they will protect um that they will uphold the constitution of the state of Minnesota and the laws of the state of Minnesota and of Burnsville and the constitution of the U.S would they be in violation of their oath if a complaint came in and it's directed to Jenny's staff to execute a mayor and Council if if we have different levels of assignment and having something delegated or assigned to a particular uh Department wouldn't violate the oath of office if we turned a blind eye and and decided uh you know to take a stated position not to enforce the speed laws within the city we probably would be uh alleged to engage in misconduct and that is one of the things of the league of cities recently advised cities about regarding some of these things uh and as far as presumptions go uh the legislature itself and the city council basically you know all of our legislative enactments uh indicate to everybody that the intention of the legislature that the um does not intend to violate the constitution in the United States or of this state so we presume all city council actions and ordinance are constitutional and legal and we presume the same of all the state legislations if a court of jurisdiction in the state of Minnesota or in the federal and federal side says it is unconstitutional we certainly will abide by that by that order but we don't serve as um judges of what you do or what the legislature does we enforce and administer the laws as they're written to the best of our ability yeah okay because you know we are a caring City and so I agree that all businesses are our partners our residents are our partners we serve at their pleasure and so we're continuing to move forward and um so I understand Jenny from your report that in some cities the inspectors are code enforcers and there's a uh and in your uh your presentation that a letter is sent correct a mayor that's correct it's it's um very few cities are led by Community Development but they are involved in some way shape or form so what I'm hearing from the council is that let's be gentler and uh perhaps when we do get a complaint that a letter is sent foreign what does that do for you chief and uh or when you're working with your sergeants does that just when a complaint comes into polices does it go then to uh Jenny's Department or does a letter come from you well I think um we would want some direction from you on that it certainly can come from Community Development that was in the options um we would just want to understand what the council's um what the messaging would be from police so when we do receive those complaints as a 24 7 operation um what messaging do we want to have that would be something to consider so members of the council I hear are gentler um response to our businesses as we move forward but at the same time I don't want our officers to to negate the oath of office that they took just like we don't want to negate the oath of office that we took so Jenny do you want to put up your the one the options that you had up oh unmute yourself Jenny sorry I'll have to ask the TV folks to do that there we go thank you here's the range of options so it's on a complaint basis rather than a proactive so we want to stay with the complaint base and so uh it's the education letter correct and um we can have code enforcement sign the letter that would be the the kindest approach I guess I would say yeah because it's either coming from code enforcement or the police or the City attorney and right yeah and probably the code enforcement might be the more gentler Kinder uh method uh council do you agree with that I think we're coming to the end of the um this few of us about our hands up so uh yeah Cara I'll go although Vince was ahead of me but I don't see Vince's hand up you're messing with me stop take it down my questions keep getting answered so I put it back down Jenny answered my question I I wanted to affirm that these were being mailed and who was signing them and Jenny answered my questions yeah because what she had up on her slide okay so I just wanted to confirm it so thank you okay Cara are you good did you vote um letter by code enforcement um I do want to see the letter before that that goes out if that is okay um from our city manager yeah uh that the letter is mailed um but yeah I I would like to see that um Melanie can send it out on her updates which is not a weekly update sometimes it's three updates in a week right also I know that we are doing in conjunction with the chamber we are doing uh calls with our our business community yeah and it would be fantastic during those calls if we were to find out what our business is doing what are they testing out what are they going to try what would they like to try you know getting into those types of conversations what are the concerns that their employees have to feel comfortable to come back to work uh if there is any way that we can start to facilitate this conversation and this more active partnership um I would I would love for that to happen you know Cara I was thinking uh while we we were having this discussion perhaps the chamber can put out a survey to the small business and there could be three or four or five questions and then we can get a very good idea of how the businesses are what they're thinking what their thoughts are in terms of their uh phased approach to opening and uh their thoughts about uh uh customers coming back what are their concerns long term well short and long term with regard to um their phase opening so perhaps I'm yeah and I I won't dictate whether that's a survey or a conversation that's that's between I know our city manager is on it and she's working with um the chamber so I I don't want to meddle too much in between that but I see an opportunity for us to you know yeah get this going because um Jennifer I think we probably have a meeting coming up can have that conversation about and then they can and I think a survey gives us a lot of information whether it's and and the Chamber has been really terrific with a lot of the things that they've done and they have a Facebook page that has to do with covid response uh and for small business and I think there's a lot of information that can be garnered from that Melanie uh thank you madam Aaron Council I think we've got pretty good direction I did want to ask about the letter to the governor is that something the council would like to see go out absolutely and I also confirm that uh we should also um pass a resolution so if we can uh put together a resolution for uh the June 2nd meeting that would be great I'm happy to do that is it safe to say that the letter can go out sooner than that oh yes they're like comfortable with the letter okay we'll make sure that happens okay thank you thank you okay um did you want something else or do you want to put your hand down Melanie oh I can put my hand down thank you okay uh all right very good okay staff has that the next item uh is item number five and this is covid-19 response to playground management update and presenting this evening is Garrett our Parks and Recreation and Facilities director Garrett good evening Madam mayor council members um the city of Burnsville has 76 parks that offer a variety of passive and active recreational options to our visitors and our residents within those Parks we have 54 playground structures which were the discussion topic of Roundtable at our Tuesday April 14th Council work session during that discussion city council entertained a variety of thoughts comments opinions as it related to the management of of those playgrounds next slide please um at the conclusion of that meeting staff was asked to bring playground management options back to council at this evening's work session and it's worth noting that between April 14th and this evening city council established covid-19 priorities and expectations that guide our response and our recovery in that particular meeting Council prioritized the safety and health quality of life with a balance that aligns with the health and business needs of our community and further Council expects that our city will be adaptable flexible kind empathetic and consider the diversity of our community's perspectives and the needs and will communicate all of this information well so it's through that lens this evening that I've assembled this slide for your consideration next slide please currently if you visit one of our playgrounds you will find the sign that's shown here on the slide the sign was designed utilizing our Burnsville brand uh first and foremost to educate our Park users that based on the information that we have available about covid-19 virus that that virus could exist on a playground structure and further we wanted our visitors to know that we have great parks that as I mentioned earlier provide a variety of active and passive recreational opportunities that are Beyond simply visiting a playground next slide please over the course of the last two weeks staff have spent time discussing this topic across our departments we've had conversations with cities in Dakota County with our Market cities with cities around the state and we also spend time researching what's being done around the nation I would love to share this evening that through these efforts we have a super solution that will satisfy all the perspectives of the playground management spectrum that exists out there but unfortunately I don't believe we're going to have that option in this grid tonight um instead what you're going to see are some known management practices that are being utilized in our state around the country uh and also a few that are just some creative and innovative ways to take a look at this as you look through the grid um as I mentioned we're looking at the lens of safety and health um it's a holistic approach to that particular category first and foremost there's the medical side of it which takes a look at the existence of the virus itself the importance of social distancing Etc there's the physical benefit that playgrounds provide that they stimulate physical activity and that we know as a fact that it's been shared that being outside and Physically Active is a is a positive way of dealing with covid-19 at this time there's the mental aspect of our Park systems I've heard council members talk about the fact that our Park systems are playing a major role in our ability to deal with the mental challenges related to stay at home and changes in our life as we work through this virus right now and then there's also the social piece similar to the physical value playgrounds are known to provide an important Social Development for children uh from the quality of life category um this was really looking at the idea that um having access to playgrounds in our community we have so many of them because they're valuable and we consider them important so if there's adjustment to that that impacts the quality of life and finally there's the balance I've heard our city council discuss both the importance of the diversity of the needs of our residents and also the importance of the liberty of our residents and the right to be educated and then make choices off of that so as we work through these slides um this will be a list of on this particular one of options that are relatively inexpensive as it relates to either acquiring materials uh as in most of these cases new signs and or the staff time necessary to go out and make any changes to a decision that may or may not be made this evening so I just real quickly again um currently existing options out there would be the option just to remove signs altogether there are cities that have chosen to close and or open without any signs at all obviously from a spectrum standpoint this uh from from the medical side of safe and healthy uh this doesn't really address so if it's a three that means it's on the low end of uh being a way of addressing that particular category so removing all signs doesn't educate and therefore it's probably the most risky side of the safe and healthy from that perspective obviously the physical mental social quality of life diverse needs of our community and Liberties are all being met at the highest level if playgrounds are open from that standpoint if we choose to open and resign with social distance and good hygiene again it doesn't change the fact that it's known that the virus could exist on a playground structure but it does start to address the importance of the education and people being aware of it and then again nothing changes across the rest of the chart because playgrounds would be open as we start to um we can certainly maintain our existing sign again it's just a different spin on the uh the more popular social distance and good hygiene signs uh there'd be an opportunity to resign the um the playground with an amusement park type Heights kite stick that idea came out of the fact that amusement parks will limit certain children to be able to experience a ride with the idea that they're not capable of handling the experience and so if you think about younger children there's been comments over time that you know younger children don't understand the importance of social distancing or they're unable to keep their hands on them out their mouth an amusement type sign with a height stick would address the idea that um one could um have that situation taken care of by having a a taller kid generally be more able to take care of their situation properly and then the last one would be to close signs all together um that would be again a different option that impacts all the other categories but it does check the box the best from the medical experience next slide please as we look at this particular slide again these are much higher cost options and they have a variety of change to the overall holistic approach of what you're seeing across the grid cleaning playgrounds would uh that'd be a costly process we'd have to try to determine if there's a company out there that would go around to our 54 playgrounds and clean them uh how often would we have them go out and do it and then at the end of the day as soon as that playground is clean the moment someone uses it it could um start having the virus present immediately after that so from a medical standpoint this option is better possibly than not cleaning them but at the end of the day there'd be a lot of work that would take place and you would still have the same medical concerns that exist if you choose not to clean the playgrounds at all um and then the last one um we did look into the idea that um there are more and more people out in our Parks than ever before and there are businesses that have staff people in our community that maybe are not in their businesses and so would they be interested in being out in our Park system um kind of sharing the importance of social distancing and being an ambassador to our parks in exchange for the opportunity to promote their business in some way or another uh we talked to the um to some different businesses around the city and and looked into that option and it was not very well received so trying to determine a volunteer system to come up with a way to have people there to talk about the importance of it would be extremely time consuming and we may not really have volunteers to be at all 54 of our Parks during the time when Parks hours are open so again it's a concept it'd be a very challenging concept to implement next slide please so here is just a little uh picture of what we have going on in our uh in Dakota County right now um this has been changing um on a daily basis uh if you would have done this survey just a a week ago uh you certainly would have seen more playgrounds close than open um and over the course of the last week we continue to see different cities uh within Dakota County moving towards opening up their playgrounds um just to point out South St Paul just opened theirs they had a meeting similar to this last night and made a decision to open playgrounds uh so I was unable to determine what their sign looks like but the rest of them as I mentioned will range from no sign to some type of social distance and hygiene um to discouraging use um or at least referencing to the fact that there are other options within the park that people may want to consider other than playing on the playground at this time next slide please similarly if you look at our Market cities lots of the same types of options again there's there's no super solution out there that anybody is doing that would take care of checking a box across the board as a one and so it just is another example of of what is going on and the fact that there are more cities currently open for their playgrounds than there are closed at this time next slide please uh with that those are the uh that those are the ideas that we were able to assemble and discount some information about what's going on around us I will um stand for questions at this time questions uh for Garrett don't all raise your hands at once Vince I was gonna try to lower it before you called on me Garrett thank you right up in front thank you Garrett for um very very um detail-oriented presentation um I don't have uh any specific questions necessarily as a it's just a statement of where I guess my head is at with this and I I would be fine to stay the course um as we have now discouraging the use of playgrounds while maintaining open open signs um and I'll know that the need to put in new signs with social distance and good hygiene is uh necessary at this point I think a vast majority of the community is well aware of what's appropriate um if you wake up on any given day you're going to hear about what's correct and what's Incorrect and so I don't I don't see the need to go out and put in new signs so um I'm just gonna throw my stance out first and say that I'm I'm fine staying the course with the current signage that we have up right now thank you especially for that that grid that you did based off of um when Council decided what are our what are our values going forward on what our lens is going to be looking um to to see that to see those values that we picked out and then to put that into a grid and have those check boxes and the ratings from one to three that was really good really helpful completely amazing um but everything that I I would expect and I but one thing I want to ask you um either you or our city manager is uh I don't think so the reason why we have felt comfortable moving forward in the way that we have been and um in doing the things that we've been able to do is because of our staff and because of the kinds of things that you guys are doing and have been doing so could you let people know some just to recap some of the really imaginative creative things that you guys have been have been doing and and faced with and the solutions that you've come up with you know like for example like how you handled the pickleball courts and um and I realize that we have some things that are coming forward later that are exciting um that you may not be able to announce yet but I do want residents to know that there are exciting things that you guys are coming up with so if you're doing a teasing thing you can you don't have to I don't want to put you on the spot but I do want our residents to know some of the some of the great things that you guys have been doing because you know we we did our um our mission state or our vision statement and we talked about boldly leading and and we are we are and some of the stuff that you guys are doing I'm hearing other cities talk about now and they're adopting so I want you guys to be able to brag about what you've been doing okay um if uh I don't see any council members so I'm going to go we have some attendees who wish to speak and um uh Megan if you can ask Andrea to come sorry mayor uh oh that was the question for um either our city manager or for Mr oh I'm sorry question um Garrett Melanie I'm a mayor council members first of all um thank you for that um I'm blessed to be part of a group of um leaders in our community that are we've been dedicated to doing research and and and brainstorming and spending time talking to each other and looking at what's going on um all the way from China to New York to here to try to come up with Solutions um and and this is just this is what's being asked of us and it's what we expect of ourselves and it's what our community needs right now so um we're we are we're constantly looking at ways to make sure that we're providing services to the best of our ability with the resources that we have and that our facilities and spaces are as safe as possible and so from our facilities team within our buildings to our Park staff who are are looking at ways to be creative either in Contracting or coming up with new recreation programming opportunities or adjusting rules or trying to work with our our athletic associations just figure out if and when things are able to happen how can we work with you to make those things happen um it's just it's our holistic approach as I mentioned to all of this stuff that we have to work with each other both internally and in departments and with our community but that's how we do things anyhow so it's it's just it's a little bit harder right now because there's so many things going on but um it's it's just how we do stuff so thank you for recognizing that and um that's all I got okay Melanie do you have any comments no matter meals I think Garrett um captured it very well thanks for recognizing the work that staff does we take our charge very seriously and um I think we've got a lot of fun and um we're very excited about some of the opportunities we have we're not going to hit it out of the park every single time but uh it won't be for lack of trying so thanks so much happy to stand for any questions okay and then I am uh going to go to uh folks who are wanting to so I have Andrea who wants to talk and then Jeff uh rataback uh he's going to call in but Andrea are you ready to come in uh Megan is she ready to come in mayor I have promoted her to the panelist level so if she can unmute and turn on her um camera then she'll be available to talk okay and then we'll go to Jeff can you hear me yes we can hear you did you turn on your video you can't see me but you should be able to hear me okay we can hear you okay so thank you uh for giving me the opportunity to speak um the council knows my position and that of at least 16 other Burnsville citizens who also follow the lead of Linda Kramer and a VA epidemiologist who spoke to the council as well as many other residents um our view is that public play Grounds uh until we're clear of continuing issues with covid-19 at least um for the foreseeable future should stay closed um but you've all moved on and uh with your own decisions on that so my really my only agenda tonight is to address some troubling misinformation that's been given by the council members to Residents both in official discussions as well as on social media so um if you don't mind I'd like to share that for the record because I think if we're going to make just if you're making decisions on our behalf particularly when doesn't sound like citizens were actually consulted um or or heard anyway let's say that um it's it's especially troubling to us to hear the misinformation being used to predicate those those decisions including misinformation that was repeated tonight um from by um by Garrett quoting the council members of former quotes and I'll get to that in a moment so what I'll do is I'll start with Mr information that was communicated at the April 14th work session this started with false claims by council member Dan Keely and by the way I won't go over every single statement but just a few kind of highlights when he started speaking about Burnsville grocery stores which he portrayed as unsanitary unsanitary Petri dishes he said he hadn't heard news stories about the spread of the disease in grocery stores about covet ID being spread in grocery stores and it may be true that he hadn't heard that but there's much much data and information available research as well as um anecdotal that shows that coven 19's properties do make its Presence at grocery stores for that matter any place a significant risk for food further spread he went on to say that there's been virtually no precautionary steps taken there was no masks being worn there still isn't today hardly anyone wears rubber gloves at Burnsville grocery stores I think that Burnsville grocery stores would beg to differ in a in a big way with that statement and simply not true he may have been to a store once where he saw that but nobody else seems to be seeing it and the stores themselves are absolutely not agreeing with that um all of them to a store has outlined extensive precautionary steps both on their websites and at their retail locations nearly all include all or most of these online shopping with home delivery being a precaution special hours for the elderly the vulnerable and health care workers as a precaution shorter hours to provide more extra time for store sanitizing protective Shields at checkout counters sanitizing of carts before and after use almost everyone in the stores does that sanitizing wipes available for Shoppers monitoring the numbers of Shoppers per cart as well as the numbers of Shoppers in the store per time and the ability to limit these mandatory masks and gloves for staff admittedly that is the mandatory part of that is I believe somewhat new since the April uh April 14th work session some of them were mandatory before but almost all of them are now almost all of them are monitoring their staff health for signs of virus and incurred and being sure that they don't work at the grocery stores if they're ill they're prohibiting reusable bags for sanitation for sanitary reasons they're providing visual cues a very clear visual cues for social distancing and related signage um they're if they have restrictions on returned items and most of them have closed delis and and made limitations on their fresh food offerings all as uh precautionary steps and and Mr keeley's words um if there were a need for further evidence and that would be fair enough if there was these are just what the what the stores are saying um there's photographs at a number of the grocery stores websites that show their staff in these various different ways of of keeping their stores safe and sanitary and um I've spoken to a number of citizens including my mother um all to a person has said that they have seen these measures at Burnsville grocery stores to a person um they've observed many of them numerous of them of these precautionary steps being taken both at the both by the stores and though to a lesser extent by the Shoppers fair enough that the Shoppers may not be all following these these guidelines but it's certainly offensive and and incorrect to say that the grocery stores are uh unsanitary Petri dishes for covet 19. Mr Keeley also said quote we deem grocery stores as essential and then we deem everybody else not essential it has really gotten ridiculous that we have this incubator Pete tradition of an experience at the grocery store and that we treat everything else exactly the opposite here Mr keeley's making a remarkably false equivalence by connecting the life or death need for food which generally requires grocery stores with a desire for playgrounds which is not a night not a life or death need he's being utterly misleading access to playgrounds is not essential to human survival but access to food is troubling to see Mr Keeley make these gross stretches when you're making a decision as serious that impacts all citizens not only children as serious as covid-19 does moving on from grocery stores another threat of Mr keeley's argument had to do with covid-19 and citizens of different ages for example he made the false claim that covid-19 is rare in people under 50. when he said if you look at all the charts it's a problem only for 55 or 60 and 65 and up incidents are rare underneath age 50. that is blatantly untrue it was on April 14th and it remains so now all charts from all respected scientific sources including the Minnesota Department of Health the U.S Centers for Disease Control and the World Health Organization and all others that I've been able to find have been showing since at least late March that covid-19 is not only not rare in people under 50. it often is higher in people under 50. for example if you go to the Minnesota Department of Health Website tonight what you'll see as of today is that 60 of covid-19 cases are in people under the age of 50. and 76 percent are under the age of 60. according to the CDC in March nearly 50 percent of all hospitalizations for covid-19 were for people under the age of 54. nearly 48 of covid-19 ICU admissions were for people under the age of 65. and there's increasing evidence that ongoing serious effects in people under the age of 50 are emerging as more information becomes available he also said that covid-19 is quote not an issue for children which is also troublingly false as has been mentioned to the council before there is no evidence showing that children are not carriers of covid-19 who can't infect family members or others in fact they can from all the evidence which would suggest that they can and they may also infect their own grandparents many of whom serve as either part-time and sometimes full-time caregivers in fact in today's Senate hearing with the federal Public Health leaders Dr Dr Anthony fauci of the National Institutes of Health said we don't know everything about this virus and we better be careful that we are not Cavalier in thinking that children are completely immune from the Delirious effects it would be a mistake to underestimate the effect that Cobia 19 has on children particularly in light of recent reports of children experience serious inflammatory syndrome moving on as it relates to the availability of playgrounds to children in rental properties and this is where Garrett tonight in his presentation he cited and used as measurement criteria um if false claim by council members um saying that children of diverse racial backgrounds wouldn't have access to playgrounds because Apartments and Rental housing in Burnsville don't have playgrounds again that's that's just wrong and it's really troubling to have council members make claims so blatantly false to forward their agendas council member Dan Keely said on the at the April 14th work session think of all those that live in apartment complexes where do they have to go council member Kara Schultz added people don't have their own outdoor space they don't have a place that they can get out they don't have a backyard we made a public records request from Burnsville and got a response that indicates that there's 61 rental complexes in the city Beyond seven that are for adults or seniors only every one of them all 61 rental complexes in the city of Burnsville have on-site areas where residents and children can get Outdoors they have Lawns and wide open areas more than half of them have pools and even more including all but one of burnsville's 34 apartment complexes have specific play only designated outdoor areas including many playgrounds some of sport courts and a few have indoor Recreation rooms as well how we go from that to Burnsville has no the people in rental housing have no places to play or outdoor spaces is beyond me council member Schultz has repeated this misinformation on social media including on the Burnsville helps Facebook page beyond that she made a claim that I don't know if it's factual or not but I did ask her and she didn't respond so I just want to bring it up here she said that residents are quote adopting Burnsville parks and wiping them down meaning wiping down playground equipment she didn't respond when I asked her which Parks have been adopted by residents who are cleaning the playground equipment I couldn't find any such thing on the Burnsville City website I couldn't find anything on an extensive Google Google search so I don't know if that's true or not public data request has been made to the city and I hope to hear back from council member Schultz on where that information is finally that's all I have in terms of some of the misleading and false things that council members have been saying again I can't I can't believe that I'm having to have this conversation I thought that this was a problem at the federal level maybe or with Congress people but to have it at our city relatively easily understood data set to have council members making claims that are blatantly false about Burnsville businesses while they refuse to listen to Burnsville citizens is deeply troubling I'm happy to forward all my sites Source citations for all the information that I've shared tonight thank you uh Andrea uh Miss grozini for uh coming in and sharing your thoughts with us thank you so much and now I will recognize Mr Jeff rodebach Megan I think Mr ratabuck is calling in write it back hi can you hear me yeah we can hear you and welcome thank you uh Madam mayor and council members for the opportunity to speak I'm I'm on my phone I don't have a camera set up so I apologize for that um but as uh as introduced my name is Jeff Rhoda back and I just wanted to use this time to share my my opinion on the subject of playgrounds I sent uh I sent an email but I wanted to make a little bit more personal of a connection I want to thank the council for what they've done over the past several weeks for preserving playground access uh and allowing families to make the individual decision of whether or not utilizing playgrounds in the cities is safe for their families uh I'm not a health care professional I'm a parent but I try to stay well informed and I think it's clear that we'll be dealing with the effects of covid-19 for some time and we need to find a way to move forward that effectively balances uh safety and sustainability and I think playground access and allowing families to have the ability to choose whether or not to use them is both safe and sustainable for parents of young children like me right now as we try to help our children grow and develop we've got home and we've got grocery stores or Home Depot and we've got parks and playgrounds and if we take away playgrounds then we've got home and we've got grocery stores in Home Depot and my son's already had plenty of those places already we're renting a town home and we've got a little bit of lawn but we don't have any sort of playground or facility like that for him to grow and develop on so we we very much appreciate that that families have been able to make this choice for themselves I think that uh now that we know as much as we do about covid-19 and we combine what we've always known about the importance of Child Development I think allowing playgrounds to stay open was both a sensible and appropriate decision um I think families can be trusted to make that decision for themselves without the need of significant City intervention and uh in closing I just wanted to read the conclusion of an article that the American Academy of Pediatrics published uh it's just a few sentences of a quote but it says play is a cherished part of childhood that offers children important developmental benefits and parents the opportunity to fully engage with their children however multiple forces are interacting to effectively reduce many children's ability to reap the benefits of play as we strive to create the optimal developmental new you for children it remains imperative that play be included along with academic and social enrichment opportunities and safe environments be made available to all children close quote so that that was from the American Academy of Pediatrics and it was published in 2007 but I think it's especially true today I think his children have had many academic and social opportunities taken away the importance of play has become even more important so I wanted to thank the council for the actions that they've taken up to this point in allowing playgrounds to continue to stay open at the discretion of individual families and I hope that as we strive to plot a safe and sustainable course moving forward that will continue to have the ability to make that decision at the family level thank you thank you very much and thank you for coming in and sharing your thoughts with us have a good night okay uh I'm sorry you were spoken over the top of I just didn't did you say my name yes yes your hands up raise your hand he was talking when you said that I didn't I couldn't make out what you said uh just a couple clarifications uh for cross-examination um I visit the Cub Foods in the Heart of the City three to five times a week back in the first month that about March 17th forward in pursuit of toilet paper I went in a few more times trying to catch a delivery uh in the store I've since gone in two to three four times a week and so does my wife um my cited facts of what precautions were being taken there um were 100 accurate um it was uh not until about two to two and a half weeks ago that they installed a one-way entrance and exit and put up plexiglass and um tried to limit the number of people in the store and created their one-way aisles uh prior to that none of that existed I was just telling I've told many people the story in the first 30 days of this covid everything being shut down it was just a Bizarro world yet when I walked into Cub Foods I was back to normal it was like an alternative Universe where everything was the same prior to covid and um the it which was which was a respite from what seemed to be like a zombie movie when you drive down streets and everything being dark and closed um pointed out that grocery stores uh there has been some evidence that they're a source of spread if that were really true and and there was a flare-up of some employees in a spot but that sort of flashed up and died and it's not been in the news at all since um grocery stores would have been closed down and curbside service which is very common now in grocery stores through all of these various app pickup people could just shop from home and then drive up and pick it up that order was never done because the problem never really existed my reference to the mortality rate not hospitalizations you cited Miss uh um that it was you were citing hospitalizations by age group I was citing mortality rate risks and if you look at all of the evidence it has always been focused around protecting the most vulnerable which is people who are 65 and up and those with any pre-existing medical conditions that would co- uh with covid could put them at a higher risk um so just a couple of factual Corrections there uh for uh for the record but um I know that uh Andrea is a is a great person she's very compassionate she's very passionate about what she does she's a great asset to this community and I appreciate her comments and the fact that she's paying attention uh and and has a passionate voice in this whole debate um we don't always agree uh but I appreciate good debate I appreciate good comments and uh good decisions come out of that thank you okay anyone else we heard from council member Vince Workman and he says stay the course uh anyone else um and and to just use the sign that we have uh Garrett can you put up that sign that we have up right now which is educational and it informs and I agree that since the time we had this discussion really identifying our goals and expectations uh helps us uh to understand where we're going and to see Garrett's um grid allows us to see this in in the data points that he puts up our existing sign is on slide three Madame mayor no I think it was you opened with the sign that we have up right now keep going back please yeah play with care because a clarification is how Parks have always been open the last debate had to do with our uh play equipment which we have 54 of and this is the sign that we have up there and uh what I'm hearing is state of course the sign is educational uh the sign uh allows people to know that uh play equipment is not safe so make sure that your children don't play on it okay anybody else uh are you all okay Cara yes stay the course I I agree stay the course okay um I agree okay Angie uh I agree to state of course I still have concerns about the kids and uh um things we didn't know last time we talked about this is kids actually do get this and it does harm them yeah and it I have a what's happening right now doesn't negate my concerns about that from what we knew then and what we know now in fact what I know now makes me even a little more worried about the kids and spreading it but I will admit that the park next door to me I've talked to my neighbors we all pay attention to that Park and there's less and less people playing on that all the time but there's still kids playing on it not as much as we used to but it is worrisome yeah uh I I also um agreed to stay the course but here's the thing that I have done is I because I worry about the children uh playing on those structures and uh I worry about them being transmitters if there is hovid um germs on the play structure and then they go home and in fact and a lot of our families that live in apartment buildings in our diverse community that we have I have two or three generations living there and so they can go home and in fact grandma or Grandpa and then there's the the hospital care and all of that if they're admitted so uh what I have done is to work with our uh cultural Liaisons uh from the school district and have them communicate to our different population and have them understand the high risk of the playgrounds and uh so they're continuing to educate in that way so stay the course but I'm also going to make sure that our community has the information for them to understand the risks and for them to because you know the the children can play and do a lot of things uh I live across from Nicollet Commons park and I see the young children playing and their and there's no play equipment but they're running around uh they're playing with a bean bag of sorts it looks like a bean bag of sorts and tossing it about so you know I see them really and and their parents um being healthy and uh being physically active and it also addresses their mental health so staying the course moving forward I think is uh with the sign that we have is kind and compassionate and helping them to be um informed and educated Vince oh I'm not muted um I just I wanted to thank you for reaching out to our cultural Liaisons and getting that information in their hands um I could probably be used as a case study with young kids at home um you know we we make our choices for us not to use the the playground equipment um but there's other families that might do that and might do that responsibly um and wipe them down and and that's their choice and um and so I think in in making this decision we are maintaining care for our children in Burnsville but we're also acknowledging that it's a parent's decision on how they would like their children to interact with that equipment if they so choose um getting that information into our different diverse cultures in Burnsville was um very good thing and I appreciate you doing that welcome yeah you know it's we're we're one big family here in Burnsville and we take care of one another whether we're taking care of one another with our businesses we take care of our residents and everybody belongs here but they all need to have the information sometimes they don't have the information uh and we need to make sure that they have the information so that they can make uh decisions that responsible decisions so um what I'm hearing then uh and uh for uh staff is to stay the course and we'll continue to monitor things as we go along uh I also reached out to the hospital because I wanted to make sure um in talking to our diverse Community here in Burnsville is what that unintended consequences might be for them and the cost of medical uh Medical Care uh going through the emergency room and what that cost would be and what is that cost that they're in in an ICU bed and a ventilator and so forth so they might recover from covid but then they have this huge expense especially if they don't have um Medicare or Medicaid if this has to do with uh grandparents so also helping them to understand uh their insurance coverage so it's about helping them to have the information so that they can make good decisions um so I'm hearing everybody says stay stay the course uh uh okay Kara stay the course okay then G yeah that Vince yeah he did uh Dan K yes I think we did this already yes no well you know um just making sure okay um now uh we are so I want to make sure that everybody understands something if you don't remember in Burnsville we have a mandatory adjournment it's 11 30. and I just checked to make sure because uh yeah okay better lies all of you since we put that in place this is probably only the second or third time that we're at 10 17. okay and it's been with this Council yeah this Council not with other councils this Council okay we're at Roundtable items and uh consider allowing restaurants retailers to use parking lot for outdoor uh see seating and display um who I think Melanie yes next yeah okay thank you because I'm just prepare that one taken care of we are fast in response to helping our business Community deal with the business challenges and I had this conversation at what two or three weeks ago when Med Cruz decided to have their barbecue and uh outdoors and everything and but it was drive by pickup and everything and it it worked very slick okay next one um discussion and covet recovery recovery reopening City facilities is that you Melanie Robert Keely Madame mayor yes okay um I had uh talked to Melanie about city manager Lee sorry about um just getting a grip on what the plans are uh and discussions that staff had maybe had about when are we going to reopen City Hall as we push to um and and and encourage the governor to open up our businesses um we can apply that same push to ourselves when when is it going to be okay to open now this is all kinds of different facilities right we have City Hall itself uh where I know Vadnais Heights has held two meetings um they're back in their chamber uh chamber room with social distancing and no one in the audience um but I'm not suggesting it's time for us to do that but I think at some point we do need to consider that um other facilities within City Hall um potentially when we get to Recreation playground I think we need to talk about reopening the skate park I think it's time to read a reopen it post it um to me it's maybe less of a an issue than playground equipment because it's a it's a big huge area that kids are skateboarding and um it's there's not really uh I mean there's there's surfaces that multiple are touching but that's everywhere the grocery store has thousands of surfaces that gets touched quite a bit um so because they don't have a rule if you touch it you have to buy it right um and so I I I think you know it's it's very clear that you know the whole reason that the shutdown was put in place was to flatten the curve and you know preserve our PPE uh buy some time for ventilators Etc and and that that has passed as we have seen this um essentially Plateau with even some incremental it's just it's not spiking put it that way so mission accomplished um everything we do entails a certain amount of risk we've already had that debate with playground equipment and it requires some personal responsibility and personal accountability even on cdc's website it's saying you know recommended they're not demanding they're not mandating they're saying recommended um and so no matter what we do there's risk and I think actually keeping things the way it is with business closures there's a lot of risk there too so I'd like to suggest that number one we reopen the skate park and number two I'd like to talk about City Hall and also talk about the ball fields and I know that Mr detleson is tuning in he's been waiting patiently since 5 30. so he's thinking oh my goodness I had no idea I have to wait five hours before the council would bring this item up for discussion but um we have our ball fields we have our our sporting clubs that are all clamoring to uh to to work they're working with the governor's office and Melanie uh same manager Lee I apologize um has sent around some information you know they're working together but I want to make sure that we're pushing this along because I think their plan that I read uh for how they would conduct themselves on these ball fields is the same type of social distancing and protection that is you know uh being applied in all these businesses so we have these we have the fields we have City Hall and we have the skate park of those three right off top my head so I'd like to talk about um maybe getting some sort of timeline for opening and uh some dialogue and skate park I'd like to see opened up as soon as possible so Dan can I uh suggest that we have uh Melanie and our EOC team come back with the phase three opening on all of these uh all of our facilities all right uh city manager Lee are you in a position to be able to provide a timeline um for when these facilities could reopen or or is it too early to ask something of that Melanie Madame mayor we are in that process right now so we have a team working on recovery um it covers a number of things right it covers City Hall not only for the public but for our staff making sure that we've got the right things in place a poor question that I have is what isn't getting done that you know reopening would facilitate is getting done and certainly some of our Parks or our flavoring um uh ball fields and and those kind of facilities are certainly there's a push to get those reopened but I do have a team that's working on it um I have a meeting it's tomorrow morning actually with some of our leadership team to walk me through some of the facility reopening so we are working on that I had set a timeline for our team to work on that through the month of May with the intent of coming back to the council with some options to consider yeah and and um I apologize when is that coming back or do you have a time yet Matt and mayor and councilmember Keely I had the council in June um I'd like to see a few things open up before June and I think the ball fields need those folks need an answer before then um it's uh well that's um reasonable amount of time but you have a lot of things going on what I'm my point is I don't think the ball field folks can wait till June 1st I think they're planning on getting out there on June 1st in hopes that they can now obviously there's some uh state level influence on that decision uh that they're working on but um I know that the American Legion I believe ended up pulling the plug on their year I saw on the TV news uh which is disappointing and I think part of it is the uncertainty of when they'll be able to get out on the fields and conduct play et cetera um the uh and then uh City Hall when are we going to be back in council chambers when are we going to open up uh rooms Etc so I think City Hall uh I'm comfortable with that waits till June 1st I'd like to see a skate park move forward and I think our ball fields have to get an answer uh before June 1st if possible okay are you comfortable with allowing uh our city manager and the leadership team uh to do their work and then in one of Melanie's um updates weekly updates you can tell us what that uh that phased program is foreign yes if that's going to be before the first of June yeah that's fine yeah well she's meeting with them tomorrow mayor and Council with regards to reopening ball fields we have been doing maintenance space maintenance for that and I know that um our facilities and um team has been working on how we could be able to should the order be allowed for teams to use those facilities we would be able to Pivot quickly and allow for that when I say June 1st I'm thinking about some of the operations um with regards to Cindy Hall opening it up for the public I want to make sure that we've got some components in place but as far as working with our associations we do have staff that has been engaged with our local associations and prepared to move that forward as efficiently as we can so I don't think that needs to wait until June 1st if the mayor's excuse me if the governor's order is amended prior to that yeah and the other thing is that we did approve the um agreement with the referees for so that agreement was approved we approved that and now one of our meetings so and and if you're okay let's allow Melanie and uh our leadership team to bring back the phase reopening on all of the other on the facilities that okay because um let them do their work are you all guys all okay with that Cara okay Vince yes Benji okay Dan K you're okay all right good we'll move on Burnsville High School recognition Cara I think that's yours and and Teresa and her group have been working on it and I don't know Melanie could probably give us an update on the digital and uh billboard pictures of the students because they've been working on all of that ikara uh yeah and actually um I'm fine if Melanie gives just a quick recap I know in our one-on-ones uh she was able to give me a recap but and then and then after she gets the recap then I can go forward okay Melanie so you're mad and Aaron Council thank you um our communication staff has been in touch with the school district's Communications staff to see how we can support um our graduates this year there were some thoughts on how we can use our digital Billboards um we have some logistical issues with the ones that are on the highway as far as how those how much control or lack of control I'll say we have over those um but what we have um worked with the school district on is working with our other digital boards and um having some um generalized signage recognizing our graduates we're looking at getting some banners perhaps of time permits to put on Nicollet by 42 um and then there are some more personalized elements that I've been asked to look into so we're seeing what we can what we can get pulled together that's where we stand at this point and I know the uh the school district is pulling together some other details but that's our partnership thus far uh Kara mute there we go okay um so what I'm hoping is that we can have a way to acknowledge our high school graduates um I do hope that we can do so in an individual rather than just a grouped together manner um so you know that that's something that I hope to do that at the very least that we could maybe list their names on a scrolling sign that kind of thing I've seen what other towns are able to do however those are smaller towns with not the you know we're blessed with a lot of autograph 700 of them yeah and so they were printing you know Signs and Banners and different things like that um and you know I don't believe that that is something we can do especially not at at this point um but I would like to see some individual acknowledgments of our our graduates um and I've I've seen some of them on social media talking about What a Sad time it is and some of them got their cap and gown and they were very distraught um you know feeling like there's not you know this is we don't have a lot of coming of age rituals in our culture that's you know that's really the big one the big one where we we bring these people into into our community as budding adults and you know that's something that's not happening for them that Community acknowledgment of them as an individual joining the ranks of of adulthood so I really would like for us to find a way to do that to find some way to acknowledge each each of these individuals um you know Crossing this threshold is really important threshold in their life okay one of the things is that I've been talking with uh superintendent uh Teresa battle uh and uh because I agree with you with regard to our students and how they should be recognized uh she was in the same frame of mind and also how we do that but she is working with her team with the high school um principle and the leadership there and the senior Council so the students are very much a part of the process that they're going through but I want you all to know that we um our Lions not the Lions our Burnsville beyond the yellow ribbon like we do every year is recognize our students that are going into the military and we're going to do that and uh one of the things that uh I hope that we can do is to recognize those students we were hoping that we'll recognize them at a council meeting um but um with uh what we're going through right now I don't think we'll be able to do that so we're still talking about how to recognize our military students so we have quite a few and it would be great to recognize the those students also like we've always done so I think we'll continue to with that and find out what the what these school district is doing and perhaps Melanie you and I can uh when we meet with Theresa or else we can have a conversation with her and see where they're at if she can give us a uh a full report and what what the outcome is that they're doing okay at Americans I'd be happy to reach out to the superintendent yeah I think that would be great okay the next one is outdoor art at the Ames Center Carol and that is also me uh so we're looking at the aim Center uh and the importance of the aim Center in our community one of the things that the aim Center does provide is Art Gallery space um and so we're starting to explore how you know are there ways that um we can continue forward um and one way that we could look at is looking at what cities have done in the past maybe not for this particular reason but something that could be adapted and it could be something in conjunction with the aim Center or it could be not with the aim Center that's fine uh but what other cities have done and they've done so periodically and it's been very well received is they have art that's meant to be displayed outside whether it is art that is of a very temporary nature or whether it is art that is more permanent and some of the ways that they have displayed it is either they have had it in stations in their Park which is something we could look at uh but I also had an idea that our trails are exceptionally popular people are walking on our Trails like crazy what if the art was displayed on the trails and it was art that was fine to be out in the elements in fact that was part of the art uh so normally artists are solicited to display in the gallery and it's you know a theme or it's you know a type of art or that type of thing so why would why would you not do a call for artists um but have it be this parameter and whether it is normally they would paint but they could have that artwork um put onto a piece of metal you know instead of canvas you know you can print things on metal and then it's you know it's very durable um or I have seen artists who create just Fantastical Creations out of um you know weaving weaving branches and making almost these you know animals and structures and different things like that and it is meant to weather it's it's meant to be outside and exposed so I'm trying to find ways that we can continue on with our Arts experience in Burnsville uh whether we're working with aim Center whether it would be in a park or whether this would be art that could be displayed on our trails understanding of course all of the things artwork being laid outside which means you're exposed to the elements um someone might spray paint it you know you know there's all of those types of things but you know time and time again cities have done these art displays outside they've done them on Trails you know trails that go through Woods um different things like that so that is something I would like uh you know I wanted to bring in front of council to see is this something that we should take a closer look at or have staff take a closer look at it's not something that I want to bring on board as something that's going to create a lot of added expense that's not something I want to do uh but I am looking for ideas on on how we can keep the culture of our city moving forward parks are real core to our identity our trails are real core to our identity but our art scene is also really core to the identity of Burnsville and I don't want that lost you know we're we're kind of on a on a salvaged mission right now we're trying to save everything we can and adapt it so this is just another suggestion on that great suggestion the thing is it's um um who's going to do that work because it's a lot of Outreach to our artists and uh and then I don't know whether that's something that can be done this year but it's a I like Dan Gustav said to do it so but it it it's art is important to our community and um that's why we have public art and we have the Ames Center and all of that because it is one of the great assets that we have here in Burnsville the thing is it's a a lot of work and right now we've heard from staff all the things that they have to do with regard if it because it'll fall um Melanie I would suppose in Garrett's domain if you're doing something of that sort um and um yeah and and here yeah you know summer is almost here pretty soon it'll be summer and then we're yeah it it's great how do we do that and um Dan G uh you have worked with uh art and all that jazz and you know how difficult it is to even get artists to display it is uh I will say that we've been working with uh Raquel over at the Burnsville art Society yeah and they were it's all indirect yeah there's all they're trying to put a bunch of things together for this year's Festival it wouldn't uh it wouldn't hurt to probably reach out to her and see if she'd be interested in getting engaged with something like that yeah because they in the aim Center itself I'm not sure if he'll have the staff to do anything like that for a while yeah but um but also the uh Burnsville Society for the Arts is a volunteer group yes but they have uh and they're mostly all uh not outdoor artists they have sculptors um so but if you go into our Parks now you can find little painted rocks everywhere somebody is somebody's decorating our Parks right now yes so I think it's something that uh can be explored but uh I don't know um Melanie is sitting there thinking oh my God I have a suggestion yeah Vince I don't know that this needs to be an implemented staff program but we could allow it to happen organically and I don't think you need a permit to put up public art um and it could be something as simple as a social media post just promoting um the concept and saying hey go liven up your parks and do what you will I don't think people will take advantage of that and then if we have art networks that damn knows about if we want to reach out to them and say hey this is a thing we're gonna you know try out and go put some stuff out and see how it goes I could be something as simple as that and just allow it to happen organically kind of like the painted rocks yeah but I think we also need to make sure that our staff and our attorney need to take a look at liability issues also no chainsaws knives sharp spoons yeah so okay well are you going to be posting I can I kind of stopped posting for a while but first clear it with uh with Melanie and Joel well I mean it's not my idea so but I will I'll support it yeah thank you I care what I'm looking for is do we want to explore this further nothing that we have to say yes or no tonight because this is on Round Table okay this is is this an idea that we could explore further to see are there areas where it makes sense or doesn't make sense and then do we want to go forward from there or or is it a no-go so that's that's really the direction I'm I'm looking for um and also looking for guidance from from staff but I don't want to put them on the spot to answer tonight you know I I want them to be able to look at but and it and it's okay if they look at it and say this is our parameters and and this is um you know this is what we we could do but we can't do past that because of you know X Y and Z that's totally fine and you know if they they do that all the time so I'm happy with that okay all right so there's something for us to consider all right we're going to move on Dan had his hand up just when you thought you were out of the way I heard that side ah geez we're almost Achilles we're almost Achilles advisory commissioner okay I had I think I'm willing to go for work and G yes I'm right here yeah I was just saying I'm willing to kind of keep exploring this I'm as many of you know I'm working with some other folks on some other act outdoor activities for our city this summer as well as if we're allowed to do them so I think getting people out in the Parks and in our areas to do things is probably a good thing for us to do this year okay well it's good so council members will be exploring Melanie and Joel because I think you're going to have to take a look at what this means uh when people bring their personal uh art and place it in a park and for how long and so forth well they can stand next to her yeah um yeah Matt and mayor and Council this is certainly an exciting um uh idea I've worked with a couple different projects similar with outdoor art and so I know you know how it can how it can happen just uh I want to come back to my team and kind of get a sense we're a little stretched right now with this whole covid business and I know you all understand that as we move into recovery um how do we keep uh the fundamental fabric of the community so alive and keep that engagement keep that investment but um ask you to show a little patience and Grace as we work through this but know that I think it's an interesting idea for us to pursue and we'll we'll come back to the council with some parameters very good so council members are going to do some exploration about artists who do outdoor art and uh staff is going to come back with parameters and to understand uh what can be done okay all right we're moving on to uh we're at 10 45 um reports [Music] you're going to go first uh councilmember Keely I have nothing oh wow oh I dare anybody to have anything right now dvb tomorrow uh but I did want to announce that at the CVB we expanded the board we're up to 11 now and uh three three people joined our board this month uh skip niehaus you heard last night at the interviews uh Joel Kerry has joined the CVB and Doran Jensen is back on this evening happy to have them all there okay Vince three good people I have nothing um I haven't heard anything about fire mustard in about a month okay okay we're gonna have something my next one okay Cara uh you know I don't have anything I probably will then I well I will the next time because my things meet okay um I don't have anything either and Melanie you and uh our mlc hasn't met we meet on a for covid on a weekly basis but we haven't had a board meeting um and uh we already reported on our Savage meeting so I don't have anything okay with that um do you have anything to say pardon me does Greg have anything to add he's been quiet all night I have nothing to add councilman I just wanted to make sure I had your voice before the day was over Michelle nothing Madam man okay very good okay and with that We Stand adjourned by acclamation thank you everyone it was a great night got lots of work done got a ton of work done thank you okay thank you thank you Chief you hung in there you and you and Greg just hung in there so thank you and good