Here is the transcript with speaker names added based on the context of the meeting. **Speakers identified:** * **Chair:** The presiding officer of the Air Lake Airport Advisory Commission. * **Ryan Anderson:** Manager of Community Relations, Metropolitan Airports Commission (MAC). * **Video Narrator:** The voice-over from the Transportation Research Board instructional videos. * **Paul Jacobus:** Lakeville Lions Club member and District Governor-elect. * **Sam Seafelt:** Reliever Airports Manager, MAC. * **Adam Fingalson:** Owner of Aloft Aviation (FBO) and airport tenant. * **Commissioner Dan:** Member of the advisory commission. * **Commissioner Steve:** Member of the advisory commission. * **MAC Representative:** A secondary MAC official (likely Ryan Anderson or a senior staffer) assisting with the FAA/regulatory explanation. *** [0:00] **Chair:** ...wish to pull from the agenda um or highlight. All right, our next item is the consent agenda. Uh two two pieces here. The approval of the minutes from our March 13, 2025 meeting and the uh note of aircraft noise complaints and operations. [0:24] **Chair:** Uh if there are any questions on that one, they can contact Carrie. Um so we would handle both these as as one item as a consent agenda. Is there anyone that would like to pull either of the items for further discussion? [0:40] **Commissioner:** Motion to approve. **Commissioner:** Motion to approve. **Chair:** Uh we have a second. Any further discussion? If not, uh all in favor say I. **Commissioners:** I. I. **Chair:** Anyone opposed? Jennifer did that that. [0:57] **Chair:** Thank you. All right. Consent agenda is done. So now we have a moment for public comment. Uh this includes anyone in the chambers or online that would like to uh to comment. Uh we ask that you keep it to three minutes. Um is there anyone that would like to uh to comment to the uh advisory commission? [1:24] **Chair:** Going once, going twice, gone. All right. Business items. Uh, we are going to do noise 101, an overview of aircraft noise assessment process. Ryan Anderson will do that presentation. [1:42] **Ryan Anderson:** Good afternoon. Thank you, chair and commission members. Uh, for those of you that don't know me, my name is Ryan Anderson. I'm the manager of community relations for the Metropolitan Airports Commission. Um, fairly new, just started at the beginning of this year. We thought it would be a good time to give this commission some general information on uh aircraft noise and how we measure it and um just kind of the metrics involved and and the things that we do and talk about regarding aircraft noise. [2:16] **Ryan Anderson:** Um, I've given a presentation like this uh many times in my career. Sometimes it's very detailed, sometimes it's very basic. Hopefully I've got a good mix here. Um, so I don't bore you with too much technical detail. Uh, and I do understand there is uh a bit of a a time restriction, so I'll try not to be too long-winded as well. Um, so apologies if I zip through a couple of these slides and if you have any questions, just save them for the end and we can go back. [2:48] **Ryan Anderson:** So, uh, the first thing is what is sound versus noise? Um, most people don't really think about the difference between the two, but sound in general is is refers to the actual physical phenomenon of vibrations. It's a physical energy uh which can be sensed by the human ear uh traveling through a medium such as air or water. Now noise is a sound that is unwanted or temporary. Uh much like my uh daughter when she's blasting a song by Katy Perry. Uh to me that is noise. Um to her that might be a wonderful sound. And so [3:34] **Ryan Anderson:** the difference there with noise is that it can be very subjective um from one person to the other on what whether a sound is annoying or not. Um so that's something uh important to consider when we talk about noise, especially aircraft noise. Some people sitting on this commission might enjoy the sound of a radial engine. Others may find it very annoying. [4:01] **Ryan Anderson:** How do we perceive sound? Um sound depends on several measurable physical characteristics of the sound. Again, it's energy and so there's certain characteristics that um if you change any of them may change the way people relate to that sound. So intensity uh which is the volume, frequency which is the pitch high or low uh changes in sound level is it changing level rapidly or gradually um and that rate of change is it going from high to low very fast uh on a frequent basis. [4:38] **Ryan Anderson:** Some other factors that affect our response to noise is emotional and physical variables. For instance, if I'm in downtown Minneapolis and I'm going to a Twins game and it's in the middle of a busy day, there's lots of car traffic, train traffic, people hustling and bustling. Um, an airplane flies overhead. Um, any of those sounds I might feel as though they're appropriate for where I'm at in that environment. [5:09] **Ryan Anderson:** It's a very urban, busy environment. If I'm in my backyard, however, let's say in Apple Valley, and it's a nice quiet neighborhood, and I'm trying to enjoy the scenery and listen to bird song, and an airplane flies over, I might have a different response to that noise based on where I'm at, um, my perception of what control I have of the environment around me. So, um those are um several uh scenarios that really change how one person might react to a noise response. [5:50] **Ryan Anderson:** Now, we measure noise uh with a metric called decibel. And decibel is a logarithmic unit of measurement on a loudness scale. It is not linear. Um and because uh uh sound energy uh the threshold of hearing to what is painful to the human ear uh is such a wide range of pressure levels. Um those values become unmanageable. So we use a logarithmic scale rather than a linear scale. And I'm sure you're familiar with other linear or logarithmic scales such as the Richter scale when um describing the uh earthquakes, the power of earthquakes or the Fujita scale when discussing the [6:39] **Ryan Anderson:** damage of tornadoes. Um one one level to the next is not uh a doubling of increase, but it's actually a tenfold increase um on that linear scale. And so it kind of takes a little bit shift in in mind of of trying to understand one level to the next. Um for instance, two sounds of the same level are not perceived to be twice as loud. For instance, if I'm at my uh lakehouse and two boats go by at the same time and they have the same motor, is the is that twice as loud as if it was just one boat? No, it's not. It's it's uh a logarithmic increase. So it's actually only three decibel increase rather than a [7:24] **Ryan Anderson:** doubling. A 10 decibel increase would actually double the acoustical energy. Um so let's look at uh some some of that addition and how we're we're uh looking at uh decibels on a logarithmic scale. So, let's say I've got my son in his go-kart and I've got my sound meter and I record him as he goes by and he records at 72 dB. Now, he's got his brother with him in the same exact go-kart and they go by at the same exact speed. [8:01] **Ryan Anderson:** Will my sound meter record 144 dB? No, it's going to only record 75. It's only a three decibel increase. So again that logarithmic uh addition uh is something to consider when we're talking about decibel levels and doubling of uh noise sources. [8:23] **Ryan Anderson:** Uh decibel weighting. So we weight uh the decibel levels for various uses. Um we refer to uh the A weighting is the decibel weighting we use in most of our applications because it most closely relates to the range of the human ear um which is about range of hearing about 3—we hear like conversation and things at around 3,000 hertz. Um, and so we weight that scale so that it it applies those weightings to account for the range of hearing. [9:03] **Ryan Anderson:** So, a few rules of thumb when we're talking about decibels. So, the smallest detectable change uh by the human ear is about plus or minus one decibel. And that's only if you're in one of those rooms where they check your hearing and it's soundproof and there's nothing else going on and it's very quiet. Mostly the average person can notice a change in plus or minus three dB. [9:29] **Ryan Anderson:** Again, adding two like sounds only adds three decibel increase. It does not double it. Um, so what does that mean? How does that translate to aircraft operations? So, think about that. If we were to double the amount of airport operations at Lakeville on average, if we were to average that out, that would only be a three decibel increase um versus we wouldn't actually be doubling the uh energy level, if that makes sense. [10:00] **Ryan Anderson:** However, how we perceive that doubling is is a little bit different. 10 dB although it is um a significant increase it sounds twice as loud or twice as quiet. So a doubling or halving of the operations may be three dB but 10 dB actually sounds twice as loud. [10:22] **Ryan Anderson:** Uh doubling or halving the distance between a sound and the receiver equates to a plus or minus 6 decibel increase or decrease. And that's just the attenuation of the air. So, if my daughter's screaming at me about wanting more ice cream, if she's 3 feet away from me, if I move six feet away, that'll decrease that level of screeching to about six dB. [10:45] **Ryan Anderson:** Here's some comparisons of sound uh ranging from the threshold of hearing around 10 dB all the way up to if you were at the front row of a Metallica concert 110 dB plus um and various outdoor and indoor uh common um uh decibel levels. [11:09] **Ryan Anderson:** All right. Now, we're going to talk about metrics and how we measure noise. Um, some of these we'll go into a little bit more detail, but these are the common metrics when we're uh looking at aircraft noise. Um, so we're going to talk about maximum noise level, equivalent sound level, the sound exposure level, and the most important, the day-night average sound level, and we'll also discuss a few other u supplemental metrics that are helpful. [11:38] **Ryan Anderson:** Uh, the first one is the LMAX or maximum sound level. Um there's an organization called the Transportation Research Board that does a lot of research on um various uh industry topics. Um they put together some very nice videos that explain some of these metrics. So I'll let the video uh explain it and and I think it's a little more useful. [12:00] **Video Narrator:** The following video sequence will demonstrate the aircraft noise metric maximum noise level, also known as LMAX. On the right, an aircraft will be shown taking off and beginning its flight. The multicolored bubbles surrounding the aircraft as it travels will represent the intensity of the sound which reaches the ground in all directions. [12:23] **Video Narrator:** For an observer standing at the pink bullseye, the approximate sound event will be played through your speakers. The sound level for this observer will also be graphed on the left with a moving bar representing the current moment in time. [12:48] [Music/Audio Demo] [12:54] **Video Narrator:** For an observer located at the pink bullseye, the aircraft sound level gradually rose, reached a maximum, and then gradually fell. The level of the sound when it was loudest is known as the LMAX. LMAX is expressed in decibels. [13:10] **Ryan Anderson:** So that's a one of the more fairly straightforward metrics. And again, it's just that peak level of energy uh when the um noise source uh goes by or starts and ends its noise event. The next one is the equivalent sound level and is a metric that we use when we're looking to average sound over a specified period of time. For instance, an aircraft event and an aircraft event if we're looking at to average out what was that entire energy uh spectrum. Um it depends on the duration of the event. [13:46] **Ryan Anderson:** Um but it's usually a given time period. Um uh we use it for uh looking at special time periods such as you know what what is the impact on schools when they're in session only during the day or um possibly uh certain areas that have uh nighttime activities looking at just what the impact is at night. [14:09] **Ryan Anderson:** And how we calculate that um is if we were to take again a noise event which is represented in that pink line and the x-axis is time and the y-axis is that A-weighted decibel level. You can see over the course of time it gradually gets louder up to the LMAX point which is 86 dB and then as it passes uh it it gradually falls off. And so we take the noise event and we calculate the value of decibels that are above the background noise level or what we call ambient noise level and we uh average that depending on the duration. So the duration of this noise event was 40 seconds above the ambient level and that [14:57] **Ryan Anderson:** gives us our LEQ which is 73 dB. And again that's a logarithmic average of this noise event. Uh the next metric is the sound exposure level and again I'll let the transportation research board—the following video sequence will demonstrate the aircraft noise metric sound exposure level also known as SEL. [15:18] **Video Narrator:** On the right an aircraft will be shown taking off and beginning its flight. The multicolored bubbles surrounding the aircraft as it travels will represent the intensity of the sound which reaches the ground in all directions. For an observer standing at the pink bullseye, the approximate sound event will be played through your speakers. [15:37] **Video Narrator:** The sound level for this observer will also be graphed on the left with a moving bar representing the current moment in time. [16:02] **Video Narrator:** From the beginning of the sound event until the end, a certain amount of sound energy is transferred from the aircraft to the observer. The total energy transfer depends both on how long the event lasts and how loud the event is. The sound energy exposure as experienced by an observer is quantified by the noise metric SEL. [16:22] **Video Narrator:** SEL can be thought of as the sound level in decibels which would be heard if all the sound energy were compressed into an event lasting exactly one second. [16:34] **Ryan Anderson:** Okay. The SEL metric uh again it we're taking that same uh sound event and compressing it down to 1 second um all the energy. Um, in my opinion, it's um one of the more difficult metrics to uh at least describe to the lay person and and use as a metric to describing impacts that they experience in their day-to-day lives. However, it is useful in certain scenarios. Um but you're taking the physical energy um which uh uh considers both intensity and duration [17:09] **Ryan Anderson:** and again compressing that down into one second and it allows you to compare different uh events or multiple events um um uh over time. The next metric is the day-night average sound level metric or DNL which is uh the most important of all these as it is the metric that has been adopted by all federal agencies when um disclosing uh aircraft noise impacts uh in relation to airport activities or other activities. [17:45] **Ryan Anderson:** Um, so it is the one we use the most and so we're going to spend uh a little more time on this metric in particular. The following video sequence will demonstrate the aircraft noise metric day-night average sound level, also known as DNL. [18:02] **Video Narrator:** As the video begins, aircraft are shown flying arrival and departure procedures to and from a major airport in high speed. Green and red trails behind the aircraft show the traveled paths of arrivals and departures, respectively. [18:17] **Video Narrator:** Each arriving or departing aircraft is continuously transferring energy to the ground in the form of noise. The louder and lower the aircraft, the more noise energy it produces on the ground. The size of the multicolored bubbles surrounding each aircraft correspond to how much noise energy is being transferred to the ground at any given moment. [18:36] **Video Narrator:** The essence of DNL and all other cumulative noise metrics is to represent the total accumulation of aircraft noise energy over some period of time. If we focus on the pink bullseye on the map, each passing flight transfers some total amount of noise energy to the ground at that location. As the flights pass, the graph on the left shows aircraft noise energy accumulating at that point. The flights that come nearest to the pink bullseye tend to transfer the most noise energy to that location. Over the course of a day, a great deal of aircraft noise energy may accumulate. [19:16] **Video Narrator:** DNL is different from many cumulative metrics in that it puts an extra emphasis on nighttime flights. Nighttime flights are defined as those happening between 10:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. To account for the extra sensitivity many people have to nighttime flights, the calculation of DNL multiplies the actual noise energy transferred from these flights by 10. In other words, a flight at night counts 10 times as much in the calculation of DNL as a similar flight in the day. This is referred to as the DNL nighttime penalty. [19:51] **Video Narrator:** At the end of a full 24-hour period, the DNL value can be calculated. To calculate DNL, all the accumulated noise energy from the daytime and the nighttime is added together, including the influence of the nighttime penalty. [20:08] **Video Narrator:** The total noise energy from the day and the night is then distributed evenly over the entire 24-hour period. With the aircraft noise energy distributed evenly, the result is a single continuous noise level in decibels. This level is the DNL. [20:27] **Ryan Anderson:** Okay. again. So, DNL is a cumulative noise metric and it's taking that time average sound level over a 24-hour period uh and adding that 10 decibel nighttime weighting um so that we have a total sound energy uh average um for a 24-hour or longer period. Uh it is the metric of choice in the airport world and we use it to define noise contours of equal exposure for um various purposes. um including any environmental studies that require uh disclosure of environmental impacts. Like I said, DNL has been accepted by all federal agencies. Um uh to this date, it is still a required metric when disclosing noise impacts. [21:15] **Ryan Anderson:** Uh just to talk about that, uh nighttime penalty. Um just to understand it a little more. uh that penalty factor uh really influences the DNL metric and the size of that noise exposure contour. Um so if we had uh for example 75 flights during the daytime um those um flights would be considered um at night if I'm sorry I can't read that with my glasses but I think that says 20 flights at night would be treated like 200 flights. [21:50] **Ryan Anderson:** So again, it's that uh that uh tenfold weighting factor of nighttime operations. Um so even though we only had 20 flights at night, uh those are weighted much more heavily than those flights during the day. [22:06] **Ryan Anderson:** Uh here's another example um of the DNL metric and how it kind of plays out and can be uh complicated and it has resulted in some controversy in its use. Um these four examples show uh how the end result of a 65 day-night average sound level um can have various uh scenarios. [22:30] **Ryan Anderson:** So in the first scenario you have a single aircraft that uh there was one flight in that 24-hour period from a single aircraft and it created event of 114 dB. Okay. um average that out over logarithmic average over a 24-hour period, you get a 65 decibel DNL. [22:51] **Ryan Anderson:** Scenario B, uh we were to take 10 flights at 104 dB, that also equates to a 65 DNL. 100 flights at 94 dB is also a 65 DNL. So you can see where this goes to almost a thousand flights at 84 dB in a given day is the same result as one flight uh at 114 dB. So the DNL metric while it does do a good job of describing cumulative noise impacts over uh a given period especially over a year or or a given period of time. It doesn't do a good job of describing frequency um and the frequency of those operations. So you [23:37] **Ryan Anderson:** can have one aircraft that's very loud versus 100 aircraft that aren't as loud um but have the same uh outcome. So we use some other metrics to help uh when we're disclosing noise impacts. Uh one of them time above uh which which basically represents the the uh time generally in minutes or seconds that a noise event is above a given level. For instance, uh there were uh 30 minutes in a given day where the noise events were above 80 dB. Um so that would be time above. Number above is um a little bit flipped where we represent the number of events by uh the level of um for a specified noise level for a period of [24:22] **Ryan Anderson:** time. So 30 aircraft events a day above 80 decibel LMAX. So it's quantifying the number of events versus how long those events lasted. [24:38] **Ryan Anderson:** Um so now I want to talk about some uh thresholds of significance. Um and so again the FAA requires uh the use of the DNL metric in disclosing uh noise impacts and there are three thresholds of significance um that the FAA is required to consider. uh one being the uh threshold of the 65 DNL or greater. [25:01] **Ryan Anderson:** Uh in disclosing uh noise impacts for various um studies/environmental studies uh they consider anything above the 65 DNL to be uh a significant noise impact. Now there are other thresholds including a change uh when you are comparing a project uh to another project or a project versus not doing the project and the outcomes and a one and a half uh increase inside that DNL um or a three decibel increase outside the DNL are also considered uh significant and could translate into sound insulation for homeowners um if there is available funding and eligibility requirements are met. [25:47] **Ryan Anderson:** Uh at the end of the day though, no matter where a threshold is set, there's always going to be people living just outside of that threshold. And so you're constantly going to have to be um—we can't um mitigate everyone. And so we're constantly having to have conversations with people that unfortunately uh you know you are definitely impacted by aircraft noise but not significant enough to uh require mitigation. [26:19] **Ryan Anderson:** Okay. So lastly I just want to briefly touch on how we measure aircraft noise. Um and we do that in two primary ways. One is um actually measuring it with noise monitors. Uh we could have an airport can have a physical noise monitor um that records noise events and those noise events are correlated to aircraft so that we can um quantify the uh level of noise impact generated by aircraft events at a given location or we can model uh those noise impacts. [26:54] **Ryan Anderson:** And um the the modeled method um allows us to um look at noise impacts in a much greater area versus a very singular area. With a monitor, we're able to look at noise impacts in a large um area and be very specific about noise levels uh at any given location. [27:17] **Ryan Anderson:** Uh what you're seeing there on the the right hand of the screen is the latest 65 DNL contour for Minneapolis St. Paul International Airport. So we use um a model uh that they're required to use when uh disclosing noise impacts. It's the FAA's aviation environmental design tool and it is a very robust model and we put in a lot of um uh specific information into the model and we're able to generate uh very accurate noise uh exposure contours um out of this model and one of the main ingredients that really makes it very accurate is the uh aircraft types and [28:03] **Ryan Anderson:** engine types. Anytime an FAA or excuse me, anytime an aircraft gets certified by the FAA to fly within the US, um it the FAA creates a uh sound exposure profile for that aircraft. So any new aircraft that's designed or any aircraft that wants to fly into US airspace has to get an FAA certification. And part of that is a noise profile. And so each aircraft type we have a specific noise profile for. So, we're able to put that in the model paired with how an airport is used uh on an annual basis or some given period of time. Um how air traffic utilizes the airspace, um weather, terrain, all these things go into the [28:50] **Ryan Anderson:** model and we're able to generate a very accurate picture of the noise impacts over uh a given period of time. Uh just in conclusion, on our website at metroports.org, or we have some uh great uh short videos here that kind of talk about more about uh how we manage noise um with our airports and the MAC system and um various outreach methods that we use uh to describe noise. So please u feel free to visit our website any questions. [29:23] **Chair:** Thank you Ryan. Any questions for Ryan? Thank you chair. Thank you commissioner. Good. Looks like that's an interesting presentation. Very interesting. Yeah. All right. Uh moving on. Item number six, information items. Uh first up, we have uh Pan-O-Prog behind the scenes. Uh invite Paul Jacobus to uh to come on up. [29:50] **Chair:** Uh Paul is—we asked, I asked Paul to come uh just do this presentation because there's this little thing that kicks off Pan-O-Prog called the fly-in breakfast. And uh Paul uh it's it's special to have him here because Paul is is a Lion and uh and and um they are the ones that host the breakfast and hold it and he's also involved with the Pan-O-Prog committee and uh they support that and it's part of our celebration. So Paul uh I'll just leave a presentation up to you to just tell us a little bit about the breakfast and how you work with MAC on it. [30:23] **Paul Jacobus:** All right. Uh thank you for the opportunity to address the group. Um again my name is Paul Jacobus, the district governor-elect for district 5M6. That covers an area from Lakeville up to Scandia. My term starts on July 1. So, I'm putting it on hold for 5 days to make my way through Pan-O-Prog, but then I'll be busy doing that for the next year. And I am a member of the uh Lakeville Lions Club. Um I always like to, when given this opportunity, to talk just a few seconds about the Lions Club and and what they are. The Lakeville Lions Club is part of uh a larger Lions Club International and it's an organization renowned for its commitment to humanitarian service and community enrichment. The Lakeville Lions Club embodies that values and principles of its parent organization striving to make a difference in the lives of individuals in the Lakeville community and beyond. [31:09] **Paul Jacobus:** So, while this is a fundraising event at our uh fly-in breakfast out there, what we're really doing is we're raising dollars for that so we can give back to the community and and try to make change for the for the positive. And this certainly is an event that along with the Pan-O-Prog events that helps us achieve some of those goals. Um the club was founded in Lakeville in 1953. So over 75 years. I'm not a mathematician but um we focus on vision, health, youth, community, humanitarian needs, environment and hunger issues. Those are kind of grab everything when we when we focus on those things. And um but I am here to talk uh about the um fly-in breakfast and and kind of how our partnership works. Um uh you know, we're [31:56] **Paul Jacobus:** uh a great group of people, but we can't do it by ourselves within our club. We're 120 members. We're growing. Um there's there's a lot of Lions in Minnesota, like 17,500 and 500 clubs, and we're just one club doing our part here in Lakeville. Um, uh, we did about 2,200 volunteer shifts last year and we served and touched the lives of 51,000 people throughout that year. And in the middle of that, we raised some money and we donated back over $366,000 in our last fiscal year, which is a record year for us doing that. But what makes that all possible and happens is events like the fly-in breakfast. Um it's our 13th annual event coming up and um we're pretty excited. It's the [32:43] **Paul Jacobus:** kickoff to the first weekend of Pan-O-Prog. Pan-O-Prog has grown over the last few years and now covers two weekends. So we're the big event on the on the first weekend and um uh it's a partnership with uh the MAC and Aloft Aviation quite frankly and we get a lot of support from many sponsors and lots of volunteers. uh in year 1 uh some 13 years ago I think we did about 120 meals and there was a handful of aircraft that showed up and it was kind of started on a whim as a as an idea. Um somewhere in the middle between year 1 and year 13 this thing really took off and this year we expect to serve 2,600 meals. We'll have 3,600 unique visitors out at the airport. Um, and probably anywhere from [33:29] **Paul Jacobus:** 70 to 100 I call it, uh, things happening on the runway, landings, takeoffs, you name it. It's all weather dependent. Um, but there's there's plenty of things going on out at the airport in that morning. Um, it takes us 200 volunteers to pull the thing off. [33:45] **Paul Jacobus:** Um, those 200 people will put in about 1,200 hours over two days with setup and and running the event. Um, we can't do it by ourselves, so we bring in organizations. uh the debate team and the scouts are a couple people that we come in. We end up donating back $5,000 to those groups that help us put the event on—that helps them achieves their goals. We feel good every time the debate team goes to state because we know we had a a part—they did a little sweat equity for us to earn their money to to help take them to state and that's and that's a good thing for the for the youth in our in our community. Um, uh, I want to talk about the help we get. I'll talk about, uh, the MAC and and Aloft here in a second because those are the lynchpins of why this [34:32] **Paul Jacobus:** thing all works out at the airport. But we have great partners like Safety Signs. Um, you realize when you're parking in an alfalfa field out there, you need a little help. And so, Safety Signs brings us 300 cones that we have to set up. The city helps out. They bring us out 30 barricades because uh giving people an opportunity to drive vehicles near an airport, they'll go wherever they want. So, we have to really barricade stuff off in in the uh in the idea of of of safety. Um uh More Golf helps us out. Uh they get us 11 golf carts to which we can transport uh many people. We'll park over uh 1,200 cars out there at any one time. That's a lot of uh parking in one spot for the for the city of Lakeville. And um it really um is is quite a wonderful thing [35:18] **Paul Jacobus:** to see it all come together. And I always like giving the numbers on this thing because I find them entertaining. Um not quite as technical as the previous presenter. I apologize. Uh mine are more uh uh really kind of numbers. So we will go through 20 gallons of syrup at this breakfast, which uh that's a small number. The numbers climb. Uh 25 pounds of coffee. [35:40] **Paul Jacobus:** We uh grind it all and brew it ourselves out there. uh 28 gallons of milk, 34 pounds of butter, 50 cases of water. We use 108-foot tables. The significance of that is that 77 of them are used for seating. So our restaurant seats 616 people at any one time. So we're we have to turn that over a few times in that morning. So that's a number of mine. [36:02] **Paul Jacobus:** They're always fun. 104 gallons of OJ, the most expensive thing you can buy in a grocery store right now. We go through 104 gallons. Um 130 gallons of water. We bring out our own water for the coffee and the uh and the pancake mix that's made. 400 lbs of pancakes mix, 560 lbs of eggs, and if you're a food service person, that's 5,800 eggs that we go through that morning. And then we top that off with uh 4,500 uh sausage links to make sure everybody gets their protein. So, uh it's it's it's quite a a thing. We always go and look for help and ideas of how to do this. Then we suddenly find out we're the only ones that know how to do it. And uh so we just kind of keep u making it up as we go to ensure when people come out there [36:48] **Paul Jacobus:** they have a good time. But keying that support that allows us to put on a great show is—I'll I'll start with Aloft, Adam right there. Um what a brilliant beautiful building that uh was put up on the south side of the runway. We were in the resource hangar for many years and then once that big beautiful building went up and we, you know, said, "Hey, it's it's time to move. A whole another chore to convince the 2,000 people who were coming every year that they needed to continue down Cedar and come in the the south side of the runway." But, uh, MAC and a lot of social media and Pan-O-Prog helped us and, um, we were so happy that everybody showed up the year we moved it uh, and that they weren't stuck. We have uh CAP patrol, civil air patrol that helps us out on the other side to make sure nobody goes driving in the wrong side of the of the of the airport and things like that, but that's [37:35] **Paul Jacobus:** always good. Um uh and Adam uh basically uh through his graciousness doesn't charge the Lions for the use of facilities. And what that enables us to do is feed all the the kids with their parents under four for free. So he's basically with his uh uh small rental rate for the facility that day has allowed us to feed uh over 350 kids every year. And that would have cost families $3,500 retail if they had to feed those kids. So it's a nice value and partnership of us working together because um it's it's a great place to go and visit. We you know we we worry about being right on the Fourth of July weekend, but not everybody makes it up to a cabin. There's a lot of people in town and this is a great place to go with your kids and let them experience [38:21] **Paul Jacobus:** aviation and see stuff and have a lot of fun. And when they don't have to pay for that four-year-old, that really kind of makes it a pretty sweet deal and a great event. So, the talk value of year after year of young families coming out is is has been u been fantastic. So, uh Adam, you're here. Thank you very much for that that support that you've given us for all the years. Um Sam and the team at the the MAC out there. Uh we work with them him on on safety issues. Um we have a list that's very long that we go through. You know, it started out we were just Lions making pancakes in a building. And when we really about 8 years ago, we figured out—no, this is a Lions' event and we are involved in all aspects of making sure that it's a safe environment for everybody out at the airport and we lean heavily on the MAC [39:07] **Paul Jacobus:** to ensure that we're doing all the right things as an organization because uh you know, one thing bad happens and it's no good for anybody. So, we're overly cautious and and always preparing on that. U but they help us with that. Um if there's approvals that are needed every year we we submit to the um the government to try to get a flyover. [39:26] **Paul Jacobus:** We've got one a few years back some C130s took over and came over. We're we're always working to try to get something to to to fly by. We're not an air show. We're just a breakfast and and that's very important distinction. Um and uh but a flyby is perfectly acceptable and so we'll always try to get in something like that. The MAC also supports us with um "Paint the Plow" in which they bring out uh one of their plows and they allow kids to paint all over the front end of the plow. And last year I really freaked out because they had one of their brand new plows out there and then I saw kids starting to paint on that and then the uh young lady from the MAC told me to relax. It's just water paint. They wash it off when everybody leaves. So that was good to know because I I thought we were going to get a big bill. [40:09] **Paul Jacobus:** Uh but uh uh Paint the Plow has been good. We're actually going to do a "Paint the Plane." There's a fuselage going to show up out there this year that somebody has donated and allowed us to to use. Um the equipment um they works uh they work with John out there is—brings out all the equipment that that is at the airport and puts it on display. And that's when the people of Lakeville finally figure out that it's really an airport with some really big equipment. And while the kids are climbing all over honking the horns, the parents are sitting back kind of looking up going like, "Wow." and and that's again a great partnership to spend the time and put that out there in front of us. Um, you know, and the last thing that they're helping us do is uh somehow Sam every year gets all the millings from the airport uh um replacement projects going up in the in the city. I [40:54] **Paul Jacobus:** think it's St. Paul this year. And then that's helping us make at least one nice little um road back out into the parking area of that big alfalfa field that sits back there. So, uh, you know, last year we had to have a tow truck out there cuz it was a little mushy and we're prepared for that. We're prepared for all this rain that's coming down right now and the fact that the alfalfa is above knee high. We're kind of—what's going to—we're wondering what's going to happen to our parking lot, but we've uh uh we've secured a plan B and um we got to—I should probably talk to Sam about it first. Uh but uh we um we've got a plan and uh you know I got to give a shout out to Featherlite who basically gave us the use of two of their NASCAR NASCAR transport trams and so that allow us to haul 50 people at a time if we have to move people around the airport a [41:39] **Paul Jacobus:** little bit more significantly than we we thought. But it's it's really cool when people are rooting for you to put on a good show. So it's been a lot of uh a lot of fun. But um uh I can't stress enough of how, you know, working together as as a as a group and and the MAC along with uh Adam out there and the FBO, they're always working to make sure that we're putting on the best show possible for the people that come out and see it. And a lot of people, this is the only time they'll see aviation in Lakeville and what's out there. And and the idea is that they're not scared of the airport and that it's a very positive experience. And year after year, these kids light up when they see these uh planes running and coming by. [42:20] **Paul Jacobus:** And uh it's been quite an experience. So So uh yeah, that's uh pretty much it in a a nutshell. So and that's the B25, which will not be there this year. Apparently the Lakeville Lions uh um fly-in breakfast lost out to the Duluth Air Show. I don't know why, but it happens, I guess. So, but he'll be back in a couple years when the the fourth gets a little further away from our event. So, uh any questions? **Chair:** Any questions for Paul? [42:47] **Chair:** Thank you. It's Every time I go to that breakfast, it's amazing the number of people and the show, the airplanes, everything. So, well done. Appreciate it. **Paul Jacobus:** Well, come early. We'll get you a shirt and put you to work. **Chair:** So, don't come too early, right? And the food is delicious, too. [43:06] **Chair:** All right. Uh Sam, you're about to get a workout here. Um, first one up is the roadway update. **Sam Seafelt:** Good afternoon everybody. Sam Seafelt, Reliever Airports manager with the Metropolitan Airports Commission. [43:24] **Sam Seafelt:** Uh, thank you just uh talking about Pan-O-Prog. Thank you to Paul and and Pat, my two contacts uh with the Lions and uh really happy every year to have the early coordination and and communication and with safety as a focus. Thank you very much. [43:41] **Sam Seafelt:** Um, so basically I have a couple updates which kind of is almost all of my airport manager update, but um, uh, a couple months ago uh, the the MAC decided that we were not able to do the roadway project this year and uh, that's 225th paving that road. It's about a half mile from Cedar to the South airport entrance. [44:04] **Sam Seafelt:** Um, honestly really really unfortunate that uh we we had to break the news to Adam and the group and the and the city. But uh for for a few reasons uh it was decided that we were not able to do that this year. Um, one being that we we did separate the road from the budget from the the the runway reconstruction and extension project uh in order to try to get it done, but due to some uh progressing and and positive communications with the pipeline companies, we felt like the the actual full project was too close in proximity to doing the road that we might, you know, the cost-benefit analysis of doing the current place of the road and paving [44:50] **Sam Seafelt:** it just to have to demolish that road when when 225th is relocated with the full project. That is why uh one of the reasons why it was uh kind of passed on. Uh second, there was some competing funds, some competing projects which uh Lake Elmo had a—has a runway design going on for for a runway project next year and that money uh with any priority list. The runway is always going to get priority over an access road. So, um that's uh a couple of the reasons why MAC decided not to do that road this year. If I could pause for any questions that we might have from the group. [45:33] **Commissioner Dan:** When do you expect the runway project to take place then? If that was one of the drivers to move out the road. **Sam Seafelt:** Yeah, right now we uh we do have a memo submitted to the FAA to try to um lay out all the positive discussions we've had with the pipeline companies in the in the recent months uh to try to get them to approve us to start the uh environmental assessment time clock. So that is a 12-month period and uh expect if that's all moving forward as progressed it'd be a 2027 target for the runway and the road then would be part of that project in 2027. [46:18] **Commissioner Dan:** Correct. [46:30] **Sam Seafelt:** Thank you. Uh and then you got the frequency change too, right? Yep. So, we are—our our next period after um putting a pause on on the frequency change back in February um and being able to do a kind of a better evaluation of traffic counts and operations at the at New Richmond Airport as well as Red Wing, which is the alternative frequency that has been identified. Uh that's 123.05. [47:04] **Sam Seafelt:** Um we we are definitely leaning toward selecting the 123.05 frequency as a as a change and that would be effective um if it all goes through as planned. Uh October 2nd would be the changeover date. Um, but as far as the the data being—getting into the spring and the summer here and seeing active operations as opposed to last year when we kind of evaluated it during the winter, um, you know, the data is showing that we'll be able to uh kind of have a better frequency on on sharing with Redwing as opposed to New Richmond. Um there there is still a possibility as we go through these next couple months—the actual [47:50] **Sam Seafelt:** deadline to submit the change is August 20th—that we see some more summer counts and and uh be able to make a different decision. But right now I'm leaning toward the 123.05. [48:06] **Chair:** Any questions about that one? Well, that'll be a good change if it comes past because it's definitely crowded on 123.0. That's that's not a good safety issue, right? **Sam Seafelt:** Definitely uh wish we didn't have this delay, but I think I think we're we're better off for this this delay since February just to be able to get a nice uh summary evaluation. [48:33] **Commissioner Dan:** How do you uh plan on communicating that to the community? **Sam Seafelt:** Oh, it'd be similar to the last time I laid that out. Um, you know, in addition to newsletters, we'd also have proper notice to airmen uh issued when that change does get made, as well as, uh, a verbal message on the automated weather for the airport. Um, additional signage on the ground on the access roads to the airport and, uh, flyers in the FBO and in—in the vault restroom. Just as many ways as possible to try to get it out. [49:11] **Sam Seafelt:** Not to mention monitoring 123.0 uh when when the change does come just to make sure we don't have aircraft flying over announcing on on the wrong frequency as could be the habit with some pilots. They have it memorized, they just go right to it or they have it just stuck in their their radio and they never change it. But um we'll try to go through as many as many communication ways as possible. [49:36] **Chair:** anything else on that topic? All right. And then we have the airport manager update. **Sam Seafelt:** So, the only other uh I have a couple things to mention here. Um we've been under construction at our airport shop since uh middle of April. And uh we do have a target completion date of the first week of July. Um but just uh you know reiterate the the positive change there is that we actually have an environmentally friendly and um a building with proper HVAC for our uh employees that work in the winter and the summer there and uh proper sleeping [50:21] **Sam Seafelt:** quarters for when they have to stay overnight for one to three or four days through winter storms. So, just happy that project uh actually got done and uh it's looking really good right now. So, uh we won't have that uh construction going on at the airport in July. And then uh the October barbecue that's currently scheduled has a possibility of moving up into August or September, but I'll communicate that um at a later date. [50:52] **Chair:** Thanks. Questions or comments on the manager update? With none, we'll move on to number seven, member announcements. Are there any members that have any announcements for the good of the order? [51:00] **Adam Fingalson:** Oh, I I guess I don't have an announcement, but you know, Sam, you know, I'm sorry that you're going to be the the brunt of my conversation here, but I've now been told since 2020 that I'm going to have a road. Okay. I was assured as recently as April 18th by the MAC that the road was still happening this year and it actually had to come to me through rumors that it was cancelled and I honestly—that that really [51:37] **Adam Fingalson:** doesn't make me happy. Okay. Um we have tenants on the south side all right that are driving down a muddy road. I mean it's it's horrible. If you go out there today, it is just a slop pit. I have two people here in the—in the audience right now that are going to be opening a restaurant with me. [51:58] **Adam Fingalson:** Okay, we could be putting business out there. There could be additional tax revenue for the MAC. Okay, you could have tenants that are happy. I don't like hearing that Lake Elmo's design—You know, you say, "Well, we don't want to put a road in because it's two years." Well, that's two years of impact on my business and then everybody that's out at that airport. [52:20] **Adam Fingalson:** So, I'm required to have pavement. I'm required to have a paved parking lot by the MAC and I have to drive down a damn dirt road. So, I personally feel very let down. [52:44] **Adam Fingalson:** Anybody else? I mean, the EAA chapter's putting a new building in and they're going to have to drive down a darn dirt road for the next couple years, too. I put $6 million into that building with assurances that we were going to have a road. I don't know why it's okay for you guys to make assurances to us and then just say two years. Two years. [53:22] **Commissioner Dan:** I guess I'm interested in the MAC's response to Adam. Can I piggyback a minute? I've been biting my tongue a little bit, but you had mentioned the uh environmental impact study. [53:38] **Commissioner Dan:** That's another year out. Excuse my voice. Um I think that's like five years we've been talking about that. So to Adam's point, there—there never seems to be a date certain. And Sam, it's not a personal thing with you. It's a MAC issue, but the runway extension was on the books. [54:03] **Commissioner Dan:** Everything was on hold for the negotiations with the pipeline uh folks, environmental impact. At one board meeting, I said, "If the individual doing the environmental impact can't get it done, fire that person and get someone else to do it." So I think there's general frustration with um just the process of MAC and um I don't have Adam's situation but I would feel as frustrated as he is if assurances were given and it's always a moving uh goalpost. [54:42] **Sam Seafelt:** Okay. Okay. Well, one thing I can comment on, um I—I definitely apologize you had to hear through rumor, but um as soon as I knew that it was a fact that we wouldn't be doing the road, um I contacted you uh via phone. [55:00] **Sam Seafelt:** So, um, somebody at the airport that that found out about it, uh, actually started discussing it a little premature because at the time that it was first decided that we might—might not be doing the road, we still had directors and vice president levels fighting to still keep the project on the books. So, um, but at the time that I knew that I was—aware or informed that it wouldn't be completed this year, uh, I called you that same day. So, I apologize for that. [55:36] **Sam Seafelt:** Um, as far as the the deadlines, you know, or the estimates on when we can get the done or the the project done, we can only go off of historical time periods of how long it should take for different studies and different planning elements to get completed to start construction. [55:57] **Sam Seafelt:** And there obviously has been huge delays and unforecasted delays. And it's hard to uh for I think for anybody to wrap our heads around initially how long this pipeline roadblock would have taken us, but um I can guarantee you the the MAC has not stepped our foot off the gas on on trying to get the project done. It's just uh you know, the pipeline issue is—was—was a major issue with the FAA and still continues to be. So that's my only comment there. [56:15] **MAC Representative:** Add to that a little bit. Um I—I do want to emphasize and I don't know the full history or what was told to you, but I do want to emphasize the MAC's role and the FAA's role in the environmental review and approval process—it is an FAA process. And this is something that airports are constantly—we wish we had a—a good understanding of what the timeline would be, but ultimately it is an FAA driven process and we're beholden to them and their process for how long it would take. Um, and so we're—we're really doing our best uh to advocate uh to get it done as quickly as possible, but at the end of the day, it's still an FAA process. So I just wanted to make sure that was understood. [57:20] **Commissioner Dan:** Um, I can appreciate that. Um, I guess the question I would have is, uh, has it begun? **MAC Representative:** Uh, so as as Sam mentioned, uh, the MAC sent a memo to the FAA, uh, getting them up to date regarding their concerns about the, uh, pipeline and our desire to start the process. Um, so no, I guess the answer to your question is as of—we're aware right now, no. The process specifically hasn't started uh with the FAA. [57:54] **Commissioner Dan:** So is it fair to assume that unless there's an agreement with the pipeline agencies, the process can't start? **MAC Representative:** I—I can't answer that. That's an FAA decision. **Commissioner Dan:** Yeah. Because the frustration, my perception of the frustration with the community is it's been five years, maybe more. **MAC Representative:** And I appreciate the—the frustration and I you know I've heard how this has gotten really dragged out and it's really unfortunate. Um and really what I'm—I'm trying to add to the context is that unfortunately it's not all within MAC's control. There is an FAA—they are a regulator and um we are beholden to them in this process. [58:34] **Chair:** So, but the road is a separate piece. It's a separate project from the runway. And what—what I heard earlier is we chose to put off the road because of the cost and it would be better to combine it with the runway project, which I agree with. However, you have Adam and his team are trying to build a business. And it's a—absolutely beautiful building that is set up to bring in uh business jets and we're expecting him to bring in clientele to drive down a dirt road in their—their rental cars and their nice vehicles to get to their building and get to their jet. Yeah. There—there's something that's missing here because we just keep kicking the can down the road and oh, we don't want to spend the money that this is going to happen in 2027. [59:22] **Chair:** Well, I I have a feeling we may be sitting here in 2027 and we're still not going to have a runway project that's moving forward. So, what is MAC going to do for Adam to put a stake in the ground and say this is when we're going to put a road in? [59:39] **MAC Representative:** What I—what I can say today is I—I truly um appreciate the frustration um with the timeline and you know, we'll take these comments and concerns back uh uh to MAC leadership. Um but that's all we can say today. [1:00:01] **Commissioner Steve:** Do you mind if I ask one more question? Uh Sam, you had mentioned that there was—you hadn't contacted Adam because people within the MAC were still arguing over whether this road was going to happen or not. Uh was there any discussion to pull Adam into that conversation as probably the largest stakeholder uh for that road and advocate for himself? It didn't sound like it. [1:00:22] **Sam Seafelt:** Uh, no, there wasn't. **Commissioner Steve:** I—I think that's a mistake and I think that tells us as tenants and Adam as a tenant really where MAC feels we rank on the hierarchy. **Sam Seafelt:** Well, all I can say there is there—there's been numerous discussions on on why we wanted to do the road. I mean, we had good intentions. It just—it didn't make the cut this year. [1:00:46] **Adam Fingalson:** You know, Sam, I personally don't have anything against you. I don't think that you have one thing to do with this. All right. I will tell you this. You—you say it's dependent upon the FAA. I'm an airport manager in Baudette. All right. I'm very familiar with the policies and the procedures and how all of this gets done. Okay. I also know that there was assurances made to us that you guys were going to fund this and pay for it yourself. You were not going to wait for the runway project. Now you say, "Well, the runway project could happen in two years. [1:01:21] **Adam Fingalson:** Just wait two more years." Okay. After you gave us assurances in 2020, the reason the runway project was delayed was because of COVID. It wasn't because of pipelines. Okay. We found out late that the pipelines were even an issue. All right. [1:01:41] **Adam Fingalson:** We found out at the Air Lake Airport Advisory Committee meeting last year that the pipelines were the issue. Okay. We were told that the environmental had already started and it hadn't. So, the information that we're getting is not been accurate. You guys have done a horrible job communicating. [1:02:02] **Adam Fingalson:** Okay? And you've made promises that you haven't kept. That's the worst part. And it has nothing to do with the FAA. Don't give me that excuse. It's not the FAA—they isn't making promises to me. The MAC has. **MAC Representative:** So to clarify my comment, uh my comment was regarding the timeline and the approval process and how long the environmental review would take. Uh that is the responsibility of the FAA. [1:02:30] **Commissioner Dan:** So is it fair to assume the first domino that has to fall is the agreement between the pipeline and the FAA? **MAC Representative:** Everything is dependent on—we're again we're waiting on a response from our memo that was submitted to the FAA. [1:02:46] **MAC Representative:** That's—that's the next milestone. **Commissioner Dan:** So unless or until that happens everything else is on hold. **MAC Representative:** Correct. That's correct. **Commissioner Dan:** And is there any sense of what that timeline might be? **MAC Representative:** None at all. **Commissioner Dan:** Okay. So the whole community sits and waits. [1:03:03] **MAC Representative:** Yes. And unfortunately, um, that's kind of the status quo with the FAA right now. There's a million, uh, things going on with the FAA and and many different requests on a number of different issues. And sometimes they respond quickly, sometimes they take a long time and it's totally outside of our control. [1:03:32] **Commissioner Dan:** So back to Steve and and Adam, is there any provision outside of the FAA through the MAC to facilitate u the paving of the road? because if I— **MAC Representative:** I can't speak to that today. I—what I—what I have said is that I will take back these comments and concerns uh to the MAC. But uh as of today, the roadway uh paving project has decided to be back-included uh and paired with that runway project because the road will have to be demolished. And because we're close in now to when we anticipate that uh runway project to start, uh that's the decision was made. But uh I—the comments and frustration uh have been very clear. So um I'm happy to bring those back. [1:04:10] **Adam Fingalson:** Would you be willing to meet me at my hangar after this meeting and drive down the road? Maybe you could take a little bit of the road with you. **MAC Representative:** I—as I said at the beginning, I appreciate your frustration and concern. I don't think what you're saying is untrue. Uh uh so I don't think uh my using the road is going to make any difference. **Adam Fingalson:** May I ask you, would you be kind enough to go look at the road today? [1:04:33] **MAC Representative:** Sure, I can look at it. But again, that's— **Adam Fingalson:** That way you have firsthand knowledge of what we're dealing with. **MAC Representative:** Sure, I'd be happy to do that. **Chair:** All right. Um, any other—any other questions or comments on on the road topic? Um, I know that we've been talking about this for quite some time and we've had uh, you know, one of the issues early on was it just didn't seem like anything was getting done and it seemed, you know, whatever we could do to uh, to expedite um, the the process um, and especially uh, if there's anything creative we could do to look at the uh, MAC's uh, MAC um stake in the road there. Any [1:05:21] **Commissioner Dan:** other member? Can I add one thing? **Chair:** Go ahead. **Commissioner Dan:** Um I with all due respect, Adam's put a lot uh into this and I admire him for that. I think it's a lot broader than just Adam's business. If these gentlemen want to put up a restaurant in there, if more clients want to come out, it's really a stranglehold on the community. [1:05:43] **Commissioner Dan:** It's not just Adam's business. I mean, there's a lot of potential customers that I think are not being served and a lot of people that could have uh a nice dinner experience out there. So, it's more than uh just one FBO's success. I think it's a lot broader impact to the city of Lakeville. [1:06:04] **Chair:** All right. Any other member comments? **Commissioner Steve:** I'd like to reiterate what Dan just said. Um that was—similar comment was uh on my mind as well and you know as an airport user and someone who you you know works at the Fleming airport which is not a MAC airport and someone who uses other airports around the Twin Cities uh we see projects going on at the majority of these other airports that are taking place and I do not see the same level of activity from the MAC in improvements at the air airport and that's uh spoken as someone who's been there for 20 years. Pat, you've been there longer and I—I really would like to see, you know, Adam has [1:06:50] **Commissioner Steve:** put up a wonderful building, a wonderful facility to help grow our community at Lakeville and uh the usefulness of that airport for the Lakeville community. I'd like to see MAC support him. **Chair:** Okay. Any other announcements to make? [1:07:10] **Chair:** All right. Number eight, uh, review of the 2025 meeting schedule. We'll meet again September 11th and then on November 20th, I'm assuming those are going to be scheduled for this same location. [1:07:25] **Chair:** All right. And with that, uh, the meeting is adjourned. [Music]