This transcript is from a **Planning Commission** meeting. Based on the names mentioned in the dialogue, the provided official list, and the context of the discussion regarding the "Keller Bartman" apartment project, here is the attributed transcript. **Note on Speakers:** * **Planning Commission Chair:** Addressed as "John" by fellow members. While not explicitly on your list, he is the presiding officer. * **Neil:** He is addressed by name throughout the meeting as the lead presenter for city staff. He is likely the Zoning Administrator or a Planning Consultant. * **Mike Christensen:** Identified via the roll call and addressed by the Chair during the debate over the industrial location. * **Laura Qualey:** Identified when Neil asks "Laura" to explain the low-income/workforce housing requirements. *** [0:00] **Unidentified Speaker:** so do you like them [2:42] **Planning Commission Chair:** i'd like to call the meeting of the planning commission monday august 9th 2021 to order roll call i'm here mr duncan here mr hammer here mr lundell here mr christensen here mr matson uh could i get an approval of the agenda **Commission Member:** so moved **Commission Member:** second **Planning Commission Chair:** motion has been made by mr duncan seconded by mr hemma all in favor aye **Commissioners:** aye **Planning Commission Chair:** opposed uh how about another one for the approval of the minutes from july 12th 2021 your motion to accept **Mr. Lundell:** i'll make a motion to accept **Mr. Duncan:** i'll second **Planning Commission Chair:** mr lindelms made the motion mr duncan is second to motion all in favor aye **Commissioners:** aye **Planning Commission Chair:** aye opposed public hearing there are none discussion items this uh concept plan for the killer bartman apartment complex being proposed at 415 hickory drive mccannonball lot neil would you like to start this off [3:55] **Neil (Staff):** sure andy bartman from keller barton properties is presenting a concept plan for a 79 unit apartment complex at 415 hickory drive this will be a pud so there's there's steps that we have to take to to in the processing of a plan unit development the first process is a pre-application staff meeting we have gotten together with them and and talked this thing over and and they have filled out their application and and it's moving forward [4:41] **Neil (Staff):** the second is a general concept plan um which you have in front of you tonight um the third stage is the development stage which you guys will be looking at in in september there will be a public hearing that evening take comment from the from the public so tonight what we're going to talk about is just a concept plan what what we're planning to do so this is a a rezoned preliminary plant conditional use permit and plan unit development um so we're following the plan unit development process so what you see on the walls tonight there's pictures that's actually pictures of the zumbrota apartment they don't have their 3d models done yet but they said they would be very similar to this probably not the same color but very similar in your packets you got you know overhead photos application overhead photos of them cannonball lot the plot the concept plan the parking and floor plans the elevations you've got a zoning ordinance in front of you the plan unit development ordinance which we which i called out on the stages of the uh planned unit development and some color photos [6:14] **Neil (Staff):** also in there is the tax increment financing plan that we approved on tuesday night the apartment will include 79 units of mixed efficiencies 24 units of those 1 bedroom 33 units of those 2 bedrooms 19 units of those 3 bedroom 3 units of that of those 143 parking spaces 56 which will be on the first floor covered parking and and ford ada which allows for 1.75 per unit dwelling so i think with that said the reason for the pud is because there's several things that when looking at this project first of all the the code for cannon falls is 2.25 parking stalls per unit when when red wing approved theirs they went to 175 i know when i was in zumbrota they didn't have near that many i think they were probably closer to one maybe one and a quarter the efficiency apartments we allow for 500 square feet their efficiencies are 480. um what was some of the other ones [7:47] **Neil (Staff):** yeah and the number of efficiencies uh our r4 ordinance requires no more than 10 percent we're over that there's 24 studios uh oh yeah and then uh and then four stories which is their typical building are um they have we have three stories of living units and then one story of parking and then the green space and then also the green space so with that said um it's best to bring this in as a pud plan unit development **Planning Commission Chair:** so wouldn't these still require variances for the what you've just spoke of the last four **Neil (Staff):** no when you bring in a pud you approve that as a whole you get around that **Planning Commission Chair:** conditional use mic **Neil (Staff):** um when you bring it in as a pud um you're supposed to get it to come on thank you that's the way you're getting around the permitted time um when you bring in a pud you have to follow the base rules of the zone that you bring it in as it's being proposed to bring it in as an r4 so in order to make the differences we would have to do a conditional use permit on top of the pud **Planning Commission Chair:** is the r4 in conformance with our comprehensive plan in that area then [9:20] **Neil (Staff):** you know what um i believe we kind of checked on that today and it is it it actually complies with the comprehensive plan **Planning Commission Chair:** i guess i was noticing um because this is a multi-home development crack yes and that calls for 2500 square foot so you take 79 times 220 or 2500 that's 19700 roughly 4.5 acres and the cannonball a lot alone is only three and a half how does that work **Neil (Staff):** that's why we're bringing it in under a pud and then um there's going to be a traffic study done then and similar to redlings proposed i did do i did happen to call mndot i saw the 1999 there but that's quite a while ago yes and i've got updated uh statistics for for the planning commission traffic count in 2019 only went up 200 trips per day so it's 6200 if you want to put that into correlation of highway 19 west going towards casey's that's at 7 300 trips per day [10:49] **Neil (Staff):** so it's actually a little over a thousand trips per day more going west out of uh cannon falls and it is going south typically what you what you 20s when you count per units i was just talking to bill and so you got 6 200 units per day now while 2019 that was the latest traffic study they use uh whks uses uh seven trips per day um i know mndot they they told me four trips so right in between four to seven trips per day which adds another 500 trips per day on to the 6200 what this thing will produce so it's still less than highway 19 west going out of town state highway 19 **Planning Commission Chair:** i noticed that four stories not three as stated in the code on the code being a maximum of 45 feet this is to be 60 feet or right around there is that another reason why i would have to fall under the pud to come under that to bypass that um so this would make this what the second tallest building above the malt house in canada yeah does our fire department accommodate that **Neil (Staff):** that's one more thing that probably should be included in the study they uh they have a ladder truck yeah park street is also that's five stories i believe and i know where i know our fire department can handle that [12:50] **Planning Commission Chair:** okay any other questions from the board i see uh bob and andy uh from keller bartman walk in the room if you've got any questions for them any questions what about um let's talk about the open space what uh what do we have for open space here **Neil (Staff):** one of the things that uh that be was a question at uh at the city council meeting public hearing last tuesday so i i called mndot the district engineer and asked because they own the uh the lots just directly to the north of there and we own the lot after that that bottom right behind the liquor store and subway we own that lot **Planning Commission Chair:** the plains the floodplains yeah **Neil (Staff):** yeah it's kind of like hannah's ben's lower hanna bend park and then the property directly west of uh mr beaudet's facility is that's owned by the state correct that's that's mndots yes so i talked to them last friday i believe and had the discussion of well if we wanted to put some green space or a park in would they allow us to run a trail from the cannonball lot past their their right away and to our to our lot and they stated they stated that they would not oppose that it would be a limited use permit and uh that's pretty good size a lot um it's never going to be developed as you know um like i said it's kind of like hannah lower hanna ben um it's in the flood plain and and so it would create actually i think there's trails actually mowed down there already but if there was to ever be any stuff built uh it would have to be uh flood resistant which a lot of parks are they make things that you know that can be that can withstand that so there is uh there is the i know that i don't remember which person at the public hearing stated that but we could definitely solve the green space issue **Planning Commission Chair:** any else buddy else on the commission have any questions so are these considered low income any of them or or is it just um [15:53] **Neil (Staff):** i'm going to let laura answer that one **Laura Qualey (Community Development Specialist):** so technically there is 40 percent of the units will be reserved for what is considered low income uh which uh with a salary starting at about thirty eight thousand dollars which could be a first year teacher it could be a young professional um or someone an active senior on a fixed income but so those units none of the rents are subsidized if that helps to explain that there's no subsidies whatsoever with any of the units 40 of those units just need to be reserved for people um with that income level um and then it it goes up gradually based on the size of the unit from a studio it's 38 000 and then for a one bedroom it goes up a little bit um two-bedroom whatever so um does that answer your question **Planning Commission Chair:** yeah okay [16:50] **Mike Christensen (Commission Member):** i'm personally very worried about just being in an industrial area you've got triangle auto there that can get noisy at times you got john deere back here you've got an auction house over here um essentially this is going right in them kind of in the middle to me if somewhere it shouldn't be um i'm worried more about our our children playing out in these areas and getting hurt or getting killed um that is a huge concern of mine here which it seems this is in the wrong spot can i um address that just absolutely **Neil (Staff):** um in your packets you have i always tell my staff to do the loop when we have a an issue that comes up whether it be water rates sewer rates i always say do the loop what what is the neighbors doing what what's going on out there in in the neighborhood in your packets you'll see that there's there's a map of rosemont so i picked one from the city as you can if you can find that in your it's there's a group of about five maps that's in there in the if you look at rosemont they have two multi-family one fairly large one right next to an elevator and a train track a quick trip a culver's a transmission repair a bar a pizza joint so it's right in the middle of a commercial area it's it's kind of pretty much similar to what cannon falls is is proposing today i would compare the agricultural elevator to a implement dealer if you as you can see on that map it's kind of embedded by commercial on the rosemont one so then i went to hastings and you look at hastings and the airspace hasting river lofts they're right downtown you see antiques on maine graphic design second street depot bar and grill post office so that's where they're putting these apartments they're putting them in commercial areas they're they like to be in close to where the action is you take a look at red wing another picture the red wing apartments which are keller bartmann apartments you got the walmart budding right up to it you've got menards across the street you've got a and in a commercial cul-de-sac on the one side of it their other building you've got the hospital right next door it's not uncommon to to see these things in commercial areas you go to pine island um they put up a 60 unit down there right downtown if you look at the pine island map there's absolutely no room there there's no parking it's all underground a few rows there's two apartment buildings on that block looks like a row apartment or parking right down the center but on the alley and city hall is right kitty corner from there you've got commercial business to the west you got commercial businesses to the north and then it starts into into main street the next map is zumbroda where uh you've got um it's on the old grover auto site so it was built on a commercial lot it was rezoned no different than than what we're proposing in cannon falls to the north you have hub foods to the south you have the hair cutting place in the post office across the road you've got a plumbing shop and a bank kitty corner from there so it's to say that they don't belong in a commercial area when i did the loop and these are all towns that are just out from zumba or from cannon falls and uh and i'm sure there's more and i'm sure you'll find some that are stuck out in the middle of nowhere too but it isn't uncommon for for these units to be put right downtown because the younger folks that's what they want and and for the elderly they want to be able to walk to to get a cup of coffee or or or do whatever [21:27] **Planning Commission Chair:** so yeah i i guess that's where i'm seeing the difference here neil is all these places have public sidewalks and um doesn't seem to be one of them coming from the cannonball is there i don't think so um if there's a trail how would we be able to accommodate that because i know right along highway 20 that would be a real be a lot of fill that would have to be brought in **Neil (Staff):** well i think if you went up you'd go up uh what is the one that goes up 64th avenue path **Planning Commission Chair:** yeah private driveway though is it not **Neil (Staff):** oh that's our road yeah **Planning Commission Chair:** so what would be the liability on something like that well you'd have to put a trail along there okay so it's money out of the city's pocket for that okay **Neil (Staff):** well i also i believe it was last week i know up in hopkins they were taking down a a small strip mall and they're going to put an apartment building right there smack dab in the middle of a commercial area so it is not uncommon to do this [23:03] **Mike Christensen (Commission Member):** well i take your point of where they're putting them in other towns and areas um of course the people that come to me and i agree 100 percent with them feel this is a bad idea to put this in this particular spot is there not another spot within this town we could put this that the apartment i get it it's wonderful we need the we need the housing but can we choose a better spot than this site next to the freeway i do have our kids best interest at mind here this just seems all wrong for the amount of units going in and the amount of people that could be here we did see that how many parking spots do we have on site there 75 76 so we got 79 units and if we figured two cars per we're at 1.75 cars per unit so that that's what you're asking for correct for the conditioner yep it seems like this is going to get very congested in here also you ever looked at the school in the morning and uh afternoon what about congested [24:45] **Neil (Staff):** 70 72 percent of the units are one bedroom or for efficiencies so the logic behind it was are we going to have two cars coming out of there and you'll probably have two cars coming out of the two bedrooms and the three bedroom i would venture to say it's a family or a i don't i don't know that they would have driving kids but 72 percent of them are are one bedroom or efficiencies and then what do we have set aside for visitors parking well would be that's what they would have to use included yeah that one and three quarters yep **Planning Commission Chair:** any other questions permission you know i think you asked them like ones i had **Commission Member:** excuse me john you did it you did ask the ones that i had um no i don't have any more questions on this [26:20] **Planning Commission Chair:** now as far as different sites they were showing other sites they liked this site so it's in my opinion it's not up to us to tell them where they have to build as long as they meet the requirements that we put in place but it is up to us to change it from b2 to r4 high density in the middle of highway business that's i guess what concerns me because i think having more more living space in this town is absolutely essential but again as as i concur with mr christensen it just doesn't seem like the right place to be placed in this **Mike Christensen (Commission Member):** concern also would be if this did go in here how long before these businesses um possibly even move out of there whether it's triangle auto people complaining about that or people complaining about them you know so there's that concern of mine too **Planning Commission Chair:** i think there's always going to be movement in business but it may reinvigorate some of the businesses in that area too they may change the type of businesses they have in some of those places it's just a thought because you've got a lot of people who are you know going to be around there they could go across from the high school too or up on 25 yeah i get that they want this but i guess personally i feel there's a there's got to be a better spot than this [28:07] **Planning Commission Chair:** i don't know with everything that's going on here i think a flexibility study might be in line i would agree mike to bring all this down so we got it in front of us i think so you know you mentioned sidewalks uh so a better a better uh transfer to you know personal transportation system there won't be a lot of cars in these efficiency units most likely not **Commission Member:** no but you're going to have enough people that they're going to it might reinvigorate the area over by the mall if you can make it easily accessible to people that can at least walk over there **Planning Commission Chair:** yeah that that i think is one of the biggest factors is being able to get around that's that's right yeah yeah it's going to be enough to be an issue a substantial cost to the community yep that's probably one of my biggest factors other than that having more housing like i say is fantastic you could certainly use it any other questions or additions from the commission neil do you have anything further **Neil (Staff):** i'm okay [29:12] **Planning Commission Chair:** in front of you you have a resolution number 20 21-10 i will um i'll make a motion to approve resolution 2021-10 is there a second to that motion **Commission Member:** i'll second **Planning Commission Chair:** motion has been made and seconded all in favor **Commissioners:** aye **Planning Commission Chair:** all right opposed i put myself down three in opposition okay so moved motion to adjourn **Mr. Lundell:** so moved **Mr. Hemma:** second **Planning Commission Chair:** is motion second seconds been made by mr emma all in favor all right apparently so now is the opportunity for anyone