Thank you everyone for joining us. I'm going to call to order the council rules ad hoc committee for Monday, April 27th. Um I am the mayor prom and chair of this committee. We're also joined by the mayor and council member Vina who are members of the committee and we will have uh council member Jackson here shortly. Um and council member Hancock is also in attendance. Um so thank you all again for joining today. Um we do have a few speakers when we get there but first we have approval of the minutes. So uh Council Member Medina, any changes to minutes? All right. and I will go ahead and pass it well or begin with item 3A um under items for initial consideration that's city council travel budget allocation. Um so currently in our council rules um the council travel budget allocation lays out um the purposes of the travel budget which is for council to use for uh conferences and other training opportunities. Um it lays out a fixed amount uh $7,000 for council members and $11,000 for the mayor or such other amount as may be determined by the budget. Um and so this year we did reduce the budget in accordance with the across the board travel reductions for all city employees. Um and currently um it says that the council members and mayors will be responsible for paying those dollar amounts themselves. Um and also that council members may not, and this is further down, may not share their budget allocations. Um, and so the request that I've had is to allow council members um to share budget allocations. And so the request is for the um city manager and the city attorney to draft a change where it says it is impermissible for a council member to transfer loan or otherwise provide funds as between one council member's account and another council member's account um to permit uh sharing among >> Can you give me an example where that would happened, why something would share. >> Um, so for example, um, myself and you and council member Medina all started on this council during COVID. And so we couldn't travel in 2020, but we had a budget allocation. Couldn't travel in 2021, but we had a budget allocation. There were even some trips canceled 2022. Um, but we still had budget allocation. So all of that has carried over. Um meanwhile the new council members have entered in a year when we have the reduction in council budgets. Um so if they wanted to travel they they can and they will. Um but the total amount of funds they have available is pretty limited. So I have more than I can use because all those years wouldn't travel at all. um and they are somewhat limited compared to other folks entering and joining council. So the ask is for the city manager and city attorney to develop a defensible process, right? One that involves clear tracking um and approvals for council members to be able to share their budgets on how they count. >> So what is the what is the amount they're authorizing >> right now? I believe it's 5500 for new council members. Yeah, for 2026 everyone got 50 bucks normal amount of stuff and so of course but the account balance of counc and so the idea would be that they could approach one of the fellow council members that have the money and say hey mayor prom can I borrow $3,000 of your travel budget to do tax and it would be up to the council member's budget if it hasn't um to say yes and then that was the process. Then there would be a coordination with Jason and I on a process that would say all right we have the two council members develop an agreement probably probably a bureaucratic form just so we can track it um and then uh go from there. But it's again the way the the rules are currently you because they hold over um it does put few council members somewhat at a limitation of what they can do especially in budget crisis years like we're we're in. Um, but that's another way to do it too is you guys could change your rules that whatever you don't use at the end of the year goes back to the general fund. So every year they start off that's another conversation but every year it always starts off at the same level. But I mean but the council members especially council member Lawson and Bergen they have a lot of money in their account. Oh, why don't we I mean that's one way to look at it could go up to $7,000 to go but then anybody who has a balance above that uh it reverts back to the general fund. >> Yeah, that's what I was concerned it should just go back. >> So sounds like that every year. Okay. >> I didn't realize it was >> so that that just sounds a little you know >> transferring money from one council member to another. I just think that doesn't seemly so. But I would support and it would be probably quite a bit of money. Um saying that there's a cap, >> or 10 maybe. >> Um >> I mean because that's maybe be seven, but it' be like a year and a half. You could cap you know 10,000 years. >> I have quite a bit. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> I do. Well, why don't we say >> why don't we go revert back to seven >> was 7500 11,000 for the mayor and somebody else >> we revert back to seven and then okay then let's say 10,000 is a cap >> okay >> and any above 10,000 uh reverts back to the general fund >> on 1231 >> you know it because they were said in the beginning of the budget year so January Yeah. >> So, so at whatever the balance is, anything over 10,000 on 1231 of the of the year, well, I think you would carry over 3,000 of that. So, you're back at your 10,000 because you get you get your gift fresh with 7,000 the following year. >> So, you could essentially carry over 3,000 a year. Then you get your 7,000 allocation. However, for the new council members, we would transfer from unused existing funds to bring up 7,000. I could just make everybody seven. What is it? 7500 or 7,000 >> 7,000. I think we just make everybody 7,000. We go retroactive >> for the new members. I can get you guys balance at 7 months. >> Yeah, we'll get everybody on. >> Y >> yeah. So sounds like that's sounds like what I'm hearing then is you guys committee is referring to get 7,000 and we're not going to do the sharing. >> Well, we're going to refer >> right. adjusts everyone's account balance to 7,000 for this year and then folks can carry over up to 3,000. Is that what you're saying there? >> Yeah, I think it Well, if you're going to do that, carry it over, then do you just you still get your 7,000? >> So on January one, you can carry over 3,000 from the previous year if you're already on council. And then on January one, you would get 7,000. So you would have a total of 10,000 in your budget beginning January 1. >> That's the cap. >> That's the cap. So that's it. Yeah. So >> um so really realistically new council members coming in, they'd get sworn in on, you know, the first meeting in December. They wouldn't get their allocation until January 1 because budget. I mean if you had travel the summer, we we can figure that out. But generally you would have 7,000 your first year max, but every other council member carry over three have 10,000 um per year. And what if they Yeah. >> And then the rest of that reverts back to >> everything over that reverts back. So at the end of the year, let's say you only use 5,000, but you have 7,000 in there. You have 2,000 that could carry over. Let's say you only use a grant. So then 1,000 is going to be back to the general fund and 3,000 can be carried over. So I'll leave it to the two of you to write up kind of from a policy and forms standpoint what that looks like. Are there any questions from any members who are present? >> Comments. >> That's all there's any objection to that from the committee. Right. >> And any objection? Okay. Great. Thank you. >> That makes it easier way. Yeah. Keeps it clean. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm good with whatever we want to do. But I just know there are a lot of us just sitting around here with these larger balances and other folks that are in a tough position for this year. So just try to make it a little more equal. >> And aren't some of the trips actually paid for out of like uh the DC trip, the lobbying trips, they're actually paid >> DC lobbying trip is covered by a separate budget, but um >> but like accelerate is something that comes out of our travel budget. If we do any of the mayoral missions, those come out of our travel budgets and then any other conferences that we attend. So typically >> all of those things, >> right? Typically any travel conferences come out of the council budget. >> Okay. Just >> and also any other kind of classes and trainings. So sometimes I've signed up for like online trainings with CML and other organizations that are like $50 here and there and those also come out of the same budget because it's technically travel and training. Got it. >> Okay. All right. Well, thanks y'all. We'll review the proposal at the next meeting, May 21st. Um and at that time uh public comment also is permitted on that topic. So during each meeting public comment is permitted on all topics and on items under section four items from open discussion. We'll take public comment and we can ask questions of the speakers um and have some back and forth exchange. So with that being said, we are going to move on to items for open discussion. We're going to begin um with item 4 a public participation and decorum at council meetings of which we have two speakers. So if you all can both come up together. Um we have K dot and David if you all want to come sit um at the end of the table in the whatever two chairs at the end of the table you'd like to and then um I'll let you know. Kendall are you timing or do you want me to time or is timing? >> I can move the chairs to this side. >> You can sit unless you prefer. >> Yeah. you sit down there to block your view from the camera. >> Oh, that's true. >> Usually we do the podium, but you also can't see speakers at the podium. Um, so this works well. Um, so we'll go ahead and start with KOT for three minutes on public participation and decorum at council meetings. >> Is it a specific subject or >> so? just this is an opportunity for you to share any concerns that you have on the rules that may be applied to the public regarding decorum and council meetings. >> So um first amendment is first uh greatest one of the greatest halls of the land. That's what I operate off. I I I want to be very clear. I operate off of the law of the land. Not administrative, not maritime or and censoring that is not fully exercising. It's like like I was having a conversation with with council member Coons um just because I use colorful language in my speech. um doesn't mean that it's not lawful. And I think that's what we've got gotten away from. We've gotten we've catered the people's feelings and then that's that's what are we doing? how we're supposed to get together as community members, council people, all those types of stuff. If you're just simply worried about my speech, I'm allowed to speak that. And I'll even go to jail to to do that. I've been there, done that, beat the case. I don't lose cases. Peter knows. I don't. Period. And if people don't like my speech, you can quit. Simple as that. Don't give a damn. You can quit. If you don't like my speech, you agree. How do you feel about the children in the audience? Just curious. >> Let's let them >> give their comments and then maybe throw that in there question. Um because that I think that that's the beautiful thing about uh our nation is that other countries are allowed to speak. Sometimes you get hung or shot or you know just another country I probably got been doing a long time but but at the end of the day you know I know you don't like what I say about you don't give a damn. quit. Um, you don't like what I say about you because you look like a dried up grapefruit. Um, who cares? I'm allowed to say it. >> All right, there's the three minutes. >> Thank you, Mr. Anderson. Have three minutes as soon as Kendall is reset. Uh, mayor, members of council, um, I I think my approaching the day comes from a unique position that other public commenters don't have. I know what it means to sit on the side that you all sit on when it comes to public comment. Um, this is definitely I would say, you know, when you have people that come and offer public comment, I've been on that side. I think my my last year on my term in on the school board, it was often filled with a lot of angry parents um that utilized their freedom of speech. They utilized their first amendment right and sometimes they said things that I just did not agree with. But one thing uh that I was very key with is making sure that they did not have their public comment stifled. Um I opposed limitations on public comment when brought up by my colleagues. My colleagues often would give the message of we're hearing the same message for uh hours on end and I remember sitting in a schoolboard meeting for example when we uh were debating the future of uh the innovation zone and we had public comment going till 2 in the morning is the longest public comment that we've ever had in DPS history and I mention that because I believe that there are often times about policing somebody's creative words that they may use While we may disagree with those individuals, um they do have a right under the first amendment to say what they need to say as long as it is not a threat. When it becomes a threat of violence, that is when a line is crossed. I would say that to this matter, the the folks that are coming to you this evening this evening and then also through the last two years often um are coming because they feel unheard. they're not getting calls back by the the police department or those who are investigating if a police's act police officer's actions um impact how they impacted their family. They're not getting those calls back. Um many times families are learning about the the fate of their loved one through the media or a hey, we just got this from the DA's office. And so the reason why you all get that pressure is because nobody can march into Chad Chamberlain's office and say, hey, I have a I have a concern. I have a question. I'm I'm really disappointed in the way that your officer acted or the way that this happened. Unfortunat not unfortunately, you all signed up for this job. You you ran for this job. You asked the voters to put you in this job and they did. Um and so be being in that being on that other side. Now that has the weight of bearing having to hear what the pains of community of community when it happens um in in the city of Aurora. And I would end with uh that often, you know, discomfort is not disruption, urgency is not disrespect. We must acknowledge that enforcement has no not has not historically been neutral. Uh and any new system that does not actively correct inequity will always be producing. >> Thank you both for your comments. Um, we will have one other panel after you, but we'll go ahead and for now open it up to up to 10 minutes of Q&A um for Mr. Kada and Mr. Anderson, starting with members of the committee. Any members of the committee have questions for either? >> I have a question for the city attorney. Are there any tell us about any? >> Mayor, I apologize. Can we since it is limited to 10 minutes, can we focus on the questions for the speakers and then we'll come back to questions for the city attorney. If we could just write that question down. >> Go ahead, Michael. >> Thank you, Kevin. >> That's not your name. >> God damn right. Um, I really don't I I just I don't don't understand why you use the speech you use that I think you would be more effective in making your point, but not doing anything. Well, my response to that is I don't understand why you're even sitting in that chair right now cuz you suck at your job. Um, and in your So, my response is because I can't. Do you know the acronym of law? L A land, air, water. and where we operate like common law. It's because I can't. Michael, you might not like my speech. I might not like your speech, but you're allowed to say it. Even if you even if I don't agree with you to say, I respect it because it came from you. Now, we've never had a civil conversation. I've tried to have a civil conversation in the beginning, giving you a chance, but I've seen how I I've seen your demeanor. You just don't care. Don't care. That's the problem. So, if I pour my frustrations out on you, go to God about it. Get a therapist. I don't know what to tell you, buddy. But I'm going to say it. And there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. You can call in all the dogs you want to, and you should know by now. I don't care if you if you have me arrested. I'll get out. Okay. And then guess what else? If you have me unlawfully arrested for speech, I get to sue you, right? >> Is that why you're here? >> That's absolutely right. >> Is that your objective? >> I'm sorry. >> Is that your objective? >> Is that my objective? My objective is to be a free American. That's my objective. >> That's me. Okay, I just wanted to say I appreciate both of you uh speaking on this matter. I think outlining threats is critical as a threshold. Um I think freedom of speech is really important. Um and I think public invite to be heard is a special space because we can mimic the public, right? And we can't always control what happens with the public. And you know, I have a young kiddo as well. And so it's a gentle I hear this gentle balance of you don't want to control it. Freedom of speech is what you know, people fought and died for in this country. And so let's honor it. It's our job. We're in this role to serve the public. >> I would like to see us work together more. Um, and so I hear how we are kind of the front. We get that what was it? uh the pressure of the public coming because they can't go to some of the other offices and directly voice their their concerns. Um and so I I hear that balance of freedom of speech and we're in this. Um one question I do have is for Aante. Um could you just repeat the last couple sentences of the comparisons that you that you outlined because I thought they were pretty valid. >> Yeah. Um I I stated that the quorum has historically been used as a tool of control rather than a framework of shared respect. Discomfort is not disruption. Urgency is not disrespect. We must acknowledge that enforcement has not historically been neutral and any new system that does not actively correct inequity will reproduce it. And if if I may, I would also add on to with the threats. I don't agree with insulting somebody's physical appearance. Um, I also would add that under um as as an elected official who has beared the weight of, you know, comm of of folks um making comments on my appearance, I don't I I I can't endorse the the appearance remarks made of of members of council of any elected body. I think it just goes into a space of bullying. Um, and I think that as you debate what those th those lines are going to be, I think you might get yourself into a murky waters with somebody trying to go back and forth with you of saying, I called somebody ugly and then like, oh, I'm going to sue you cuz you kicked me out of my out of the meeting, what not. I just don't endorse endorse it. And I often believe that unfortunately it opens up um it opens up individuals believe believing that they can talk to people recklessly um in a space where it's just not okay like respectfully and this is a space where me and Kat will disagree but um I I believe that like standing up for black women period regardless of of your party affiliation and so like hearing words where often there are black women's appearance on council mocked. I would not stand for that if I heard that from a white man, right? Or if somebody else in just in general and so I don't endorse that. And I also want to make sure that as you debate those op those spaces, you all also acknowledge you we are you are humans as well and bullying is real. Uh and so I just I can't I can't get behind um cont continuing to attack one's appearance. >> Can I respond to that? Um, I'd rather not have the dialogue between the speakers. It's really questions from the council members to the speakers and dialogue. So, you all can have a sidebar if you would like to, Council Member Hancock to have a question. >> No, I really it's more of a comment with more than a question. I again, you know, I served in the military. I believe in the Constitution and people's right to speak. I think there there's a such a thing as uh self-control using appropriate speech in appropriate venues that you know you can't you can't say out of one side of your mouth I respect people I respect my elders I respect women I respect children and I respect sacred spaces and then in the other breath curse people out I mean that's just inconsistent and it shows a level of just because you can doesn't mean you And it shows a level of maturity. It shows a level of consciousness. And also, you know, when I grew up in an era, you use profanity when you didn't have anything smart to say. So, you can use language and be just as powerful without using profanity because I think about again kids that are sitting in the in the room who are coming because they want to learn about what government is. You can disagree with me all day long. I knew that y'all was dangerous when I took it. But it's, you know, making personal comments about me. I know how I am. I am fearfully and wonderfully made by God. So what you say doesn't mean a thing to me. But the fact is is that there are young people watching and they think that this is okay. And then you have others who want to come and, you know, present their points of view as well. And I've gotten email after email that they actually feel threatened by that. Language in and of itself doesn't threaten me. You know, if you want to come and you want to throw hands, we that's another conversation. But to be able to come and to passionately express your views in a respectful manner to people who you say you respect, and you may not, I don't know, but if you if you if you if you say that you're supposed to respect a certain capital person, they're the the office that they're in, the work that they do, because you have no idea. you have some idea because you've been in this position. But when you're sitting in this position where everybody expects a lot of things from you, there's a lot more going on at BCI. You can't make assumptions that you know what that is unless you're there. And so for Kevin, you know, the remarks you made about me, I don't care too crap about what you say, but what I do care about is those who are watching. You know, it really impacts them and it causes them to back up. And if that's the intention, then that's probably what they do. We're just going to allow momentarily a response, probably respectful from Mr. Kada and then >> Yeah, I think you're >> And here's the reason why I think you're um because you sent your son after um you are a liar. You are a liar. >> I let I let her speak, right? >> Yes. But also let's keep out the conversation straight before you start on the topic. Let's keep the conversation on the topic at hand. >> Um we're not talking about like what did or didn't happen. >> And I had some lips. >> So that's the end of the 10 minutes. But also like for everyone what we do need to do is stay focused on the topic. So not a did this happen, did that happen, did this happen >> conversation because that >> it's not productive >> and there are other people who want to see. >> So >> um I do think the mayor and um Aante also had some additional conversations um comments and Mr. Kada if you have some comments that are for the topic and not about what did or didn't happen in the past then if folks are willing to extend the time um by three minutes I'm willing to extend the time. >> Yes. >> Okay. So Mr. Kate, if you want to wrap up with kind of focus to the conversation at hand and then we can go to a >> right on the same topic of yeah of the >> insults is the topic that a raised and that um >> clarifying is it three minutes per person or three in total? >> Three minutes total. So yeah, let's also keep it >> um what what I said um from what I said was objective and factual. First amendment is what I expressed. Again, you might not like it, don't care. But at the end of the day, what she expressed was anecdotal as far as oh just because you shouldn't can do it, but you can't do it. No, I'm sorry. The Constitution wasn't written like nothing. The Constitution was stated freedom of speech. Period. Freedom of speech. So, and you guys took oaths to protect that speech. You didn't imply your feeling because of that speech. And I ask you to be objective. and stick to the goal. It doesn't matter what >> I'm allowed to say. >> Thank you. Um Aante, did you want to add any additional comments before we go to the mayor? >> Uh I would I would just say that there I'm going just focus on the cussing piece. Um I work with middle schoolers and medina students at a middle school. I hear creative words every single day. Um, I know that there are opinions about time and place. Um, I don't know if that is the hill that I'm willing to like go back and forth and dime on about about cussing. Um, I would definitely would definitely just make sure that uh any rules that are created. Um, again, honor the first amendment. Two, uh, threats of any kind should not be tolerated. agree. Um I don't know, Pete, how you're going to get around the the insults piece. I don't even think that's possible. Um but I I would definitely say there have been times where I have heard children of those who have lost their their parents um those who have been impacted by the issue that we consistently come to speak about who have not used creative words whatsoever um or inappropriate words. And I don't know if those those children have had any sort of reach out um all in branch have had any opportunity to sit down with any council member. And so if you don't want to talk to me, that's fine. But at least there are folks that have been directly impacted by folks that are a part of the city of Aurora that definitely deserve your attention. And it is okay not to ever need to want to speak to me, but at least reach out to those kids that have been impacted that have come to speak to you. Mayor while it's to the city too. Yes. >> Okay. Um is there anything are there any reasonable restrictions when it comes to speed and public divided? >> Sure. And what I'll what I'll say is that of course K I didn't mean to poke you there with the I don't sometimes like what I hear but I will defend your your right to say it up and down. you know that right? We cannot and we will not under my advice try to mitigate content. We just won't. And so again, I only brought that up because I have heard, you know, the kids come in, but I will never tell you that we're going to do anything to you if you keep using the language, right? That's your choice. Um, as Mr. Anderson stated, I agree with him. threats cross the line and and you guys and I it's been very rare that I've even seen somebody get close uh to that. But what we can do is we can manner and meet, right? We can be consistent. We can say it's three minutes, you go over three minutes, you're violating the rules, had nothing to do with your content, right? Um other things. And you know as we as as the committee works through these areas right um you know the question is is how do we put some teeth right into the rules where people will follow what we're asking everybody to do right and you know one of the things that was kind of came up at the last rules committee meeting was it's really not I'm not a fan of the police coming in and making arrests during a live council meeting right because I is disruptive. Now, are there things that the council can do in their council rules that can limit the behavior later on? Sure. And I think what that means, and I think what the committee is going to probably discuss is is what happens when somebody does violate the rules that are just doing manner and needs, not content, but manner means. And does that mean that they get asked to leave, then they're criminally trespassed for the next meeting? So, they get time out for one meeting, they can't come back. So they come back the next meeting and try to get in, then they would be subject to arrest. But again, it's not doing anything immediately at the meeting. And so as we have these conversations, as you state what you're saying, I I know that you like to use the colorful language ever since I've been here. Can't tell you you can. Um, but you know, as the mayor said, you know, you want to look and see what that could have effect on individuals if you care. It doesn't matter to me. I just um and so the only time that speech like that mayor can get uh can get somebody in trouble with the profanity or whatever is it and it it's it's comparative to inciting a riot, right? If somebody using such bad language and such insulted language that is causing a disruption so bad that people are getting, you know, leading towards violence. That's when your speech could be regulated. Of course, I haven't seen that in the in the council meeting. So, again, we're never I'm never going to advise as as the lawyer for the city, I'm never going to advise council to regulate content. So, I think it would be good if for you to come up with this here. Here's the problem that I have and this is just to me and that people think that I support it. People think that I am allowing that it is my discretion for Kevin to talk the way he talks and that's not true. And so I think if you were to come up with a statement that distances me from that language, I would really appreciate it. >> And mayor, we're going to get to that in 5A is the revision of the decorum statement. So um yeah, understood on that point. Um I do want to note that some of the other items that we've discussed are virtual participation as well as kind of potential consequences and this is on community member right public commenters. We also will have comment a section on council member decorum and conduct as well. So, are there any further comments from this panel on um potential sanctions or on uh virtual participation? Mr. very paid off. >> Yeah, I just uh I don't know, I may have missed it, but I remember we had um the one meeting where the uh a person like crashed or zoombombed or whatever it was and when there was virtual public comment and said some pretty anti-semitic antilack sort of sentiment. So, I'm would kind of give caution or like if there's not truly a system to prevent that in the future because I I could just see somebody who who doesn't like any of us at this table still hopping on that meeting, not having to identify themselves and saying some off-the-wall crap um and creating another environment where folks were not not welcomed. I I definitely if there's virtual public comment I think that that opens up means for accessibility I do support that but also if there's not a mechanism to where you can prevent the incident that did happen I would caution against it >> and I did speak with the city attorney briefly about that earlier today. I don't know if you want to share any comments about kind of things we can do to help limit help ensure identification and limit participation for folks that would be creating a threatening environment. >> Yes, Madam Chair. So, I'll tell you um yeah, that that speech was unlawful, right? Because it you could see the feelings in the room. People were getting very angry. That's the type of speech I was talking about that could be insightful, right? And so what we have seen coming out of COVID is people have gotten really creative, right, on spoofing their IP addresses where we used to be able to geoence, right? We used to be able to say, "All right, if you're in Colorado, you could call in because we a lot of those individuals were calling from out of state, right? They were picking the big cities, the top 50 cities, and they were they were lambasting all their public comment, saying the same stuff, and we kind of expected that to do it." So, as we've been looking through uh the city clerk and the city manager and I have been looking through some of ideas, I I think the best way to limit that is to throw that into an accommodation type situation. Not an ADA, but just an accommodation. It doesn't have to necessarily be an ADA accommodation, but putting a process in where somebody has to take steps with before the meeting where they have to tell us who they are, then we can call them, right, when we're ready to do that because we probably under that rule probably won't have a lot of accommodation requests every meeting. We might, we may not, right? But at least that puts some safeguards on it. Content neutral, right? We're not going to get into content, but to make sure that yes, there truly is a reason why. It's not that you just can't get to the meeting, right, because you're working late or whatnot, but there's really something going on personally. You're in the hospital, you're, you know, whatnot. Um, to do it. That's what I kind of talked to the mayor about is having that kind of a framework. So, and having somebody neutral, it's not going to be Jason or I handling that. It's going to be probably our probably one of our folks in the in the disability office, right? The ADA office that that is trained up on that to be able to to counter that again with the 48 hours in advance letting everybody know. We'll make it clear, you know, on the rules. This is what takes if you want to if you have an some sort of accommodation that you need to to appear virtually. Obviously, the preference will be you come down, but obviously some individuals can't can't do that. >> Thank you both. Oh, sorry, Mr. K. >> Yeah. So, um, I come from a background of roasting. So, um, I don't know if y'all know what that is. I think we all know. >> But I do agree with uh I think that is out outside the bound. But if if that first of all he the guy was a coward for calling in and say because you know damn well he wouldn't say that in our face. That's why he said that over. I want to be very very clear. But that's the beautiful thing about the first amendment. I get to uh tear your ass down, too. Now, what I'm saying is that collectively we can really do some some some things together as far as our free speech. The only and if you if you only notice the when I'm frustrated about something, there's usually a the the subject matter of why I'm frustrated about something. It's never I'm just cussing you out just to cuss you out. There's always there there is a um an end goal. The end goal is for for me to be hurt. But the thing is I'm also testing your ego. So, are you going to be more in Are you going to be more in tune with your ego, which consists of your feelings, or are you going to be more in in tune? What is he uh logistically saying? Because I can have civil conversation. I've had it. I've had it with Jason. I've had it with you. Um I've had it with you, Peter. >> I'm very touching those conversations. Sorry. I'm very reflective and to be honest, you put in that rule first time I cuss cussed you out and then that's when you started saying that that rule as far as you know language and all that type stuff and I felt attacked because you were attacking my speech. You cared more about what the colorful language was instead of actually hearing me as a human being and a taxpayer. You didn't care about hearing me, Michael. You just didn't. And so I tried the nice guy thing. It doesn't get me anywhere. So when I hold you accountable, you don't like it. You just don't like it. You don't like my speech. But guess what? I'm the type of person that gets stuff done. and the stuff that I do behind the scenes, you don't even notice because you're so focused on your personal feelings toward me instead of being like, you know what, let me take Kad to lunch. Let me let me hear his idea. And I'll be more than happy to to have a civil conversation with you. I've done it with cops. I've shouted, matter of fact, I've shouted out cops names and badge numbers when they did a great job. Have I not be at city council meetings? >> All right, Mr. Kat, thank you. I think we've got the points. We want to make time for the remaining folks um for the next panel. But thank you and thank you Mr. Anderson for comments. Um, thank you council for your thoughtful questions and feedback as well. And we're going to go ahead and call up the next panel which is Veronica Sebrand, Samantha Corente, and Kya Loops. If you need to bring the baby up while you're commenting, all good. She doesn't have a choice. >> I know how that goes. So, three minutes. Yep. Initially three minutes comment and then since there are three of you, we'll do up to 15 minutes of uh Q&A and discussion. Um so we will go ahead and start with uh Miss Cbr and this again on public comment public member comment decor. >> So first before I even read what I wrote I want to address the dialogue that I seen going back and forth just today. I seen a lack of maturity on both sides. Even the elderly gentleman behind Miss Stephanie, I heard him call Mr. K dot an [ __ ] which is cussing and name calling. >> I did. >> I hear a lot of size and gesture just as such from that side also, which can lead down to one thing that we should agree on. We're human. So it's not to come and attack because I have seen antagonizing to this family. I've seen because they know the limit the buttons pushed by gestures by words. I've seen meetings held off for a break so people can come off the panel and speak directly. that is antagonizing. So when I address the subject of decorum which is raised I have to pause because when you speak about decorum it is from a place of comfort while families like mine speak from a place of loss. So the conversation is already unequal. You may not understand the emotional and mental state of a mother, a father, a brother, a sister who had to see their loved one laying in a casket long before their time was due. You may not understand what it does to see a father laid to rest who will never get the chance to hold his child, who will never hear the cries of his juniors. When our tears in front of people who do not care and our requests are ignored, the pain turns into demands. Demands to be heard and acknowledged. demands to be treated like human beings whose lives and losses matter. And when the subject of the harm comes from someone who may have direct ties to the outcomes of this problem, it becomes even more painful because it tells us our tone matters more than our truth. Let me be clear, scripture is not used to curse. Scripture is used to reveal reality. If you hear a verse and take it as a curse, that is between you and your God. You must ask yourself, why is a message about justice and accountability feeling like an attack? You want to talk about decorum, but you don't want to talk about brutality done to the bodies once carried by the loving mother. I have stitches in my mouth right now, but I will not sit down. I will choose to speak out. If I can stand here in my physical pain, you can sit here and hear the spiritual pain that ache in my heart just like many families like mine have to carry every day. Especially as I hear this cuz I have to step up and be the father. I have to step in and take that opportunity that was taken away. We are scared every day. Scared to go to the store. Scared just to exist. And now I have a baby to grow up hearing stories about his father instead of filling his father's arms. Because too many families have been told to calm down while their loved ones names are dragged through the mud. Because too many of you once fought in the same streets, stood in the same advocate group and now act as if the very people you once stood by is a threat. The quorum is not silence. The quorum is accountability. And today you will hear us. We are not weaponizing faith. We are surviving through it and we are standing on it. We are using spiritual recognition and our decorum of what's in our heart to speak the truth and a place where the truth has been ignored. >> Miss Corente, you have three minutes. >> Um, my name is Samantha. I've never introduced myself because I quite frankly have had a fear to come and speak to you guys. Um, I also wrote it because it's just easier. But the reason why I've chose to stand as an ally for my sister and the other families is because 70% of you guys don't even look up from your screens. So, I know you're not listening and it's not resonating. So, I don't waste my time. Um to Aurora City Council, I want to respond clearly and respectfully and directly to the narrative being pushed about residents who have spoken during public comment. The people being criticized are not hijacking the meetings. They are a community of members using one of the few public avenues that we have available to raise our concerns directly to elected officials. Public comment exists for that exact reason, to allow residents, especially those who feel unheard, to speak truth to power. For many residents, city council is not the first place they've turned to. It's the place that they turned after all the other doors were closed. After all of our calls went unanswered, and all after all the systems failed us, we come to you guys. Council chambers have become the place people bring their grief to because too often there have been nowhere else left to take them in. When communities repeatedly ask for help and are ignored, emotion is not the problem. Emotion is the evidence of the problem. True decorum is not silence in the face of suffering. True decorum is listening with patience, responding with integrity, and treating residents with dignity, even if their words are difficult to hear. Attempts to paint speakers as bitter as dangerous or makes us uncivil and it dismisses our legitimate grievances and shifts attention away from the issues being raised. Too often, criticism of tone becomes a substitute for accountability. City council should understand this plainly. When residents come before you grieving, frustrated, and demanding answers, it's because your chamber has become a place of account where accountability lives. You are you are the body entrusted to hear what others would not listen to. Some speak of healing. I asked for healing too when my loved one was gunned down. The response was silence. The response was mockery. And the response was lies. There were no healing words. There were no prayers. There was no grace extended to my family when we needed it the most. Until you have to had bury someone you love and hide the damage done to their body beneath clothing, you do not understand. until you have to hold a new mother after grieving the birth of her first child and assure her she will survive the unimaginable you do not understand until you have watched your child lose sleep, peace, and an appetite due to the trauma he had to witness caused by cowards carrying a badge. You do not understand. I implore you not to lecture grieving people about decorum while dismissing grief. Do not speak of healing while overlooking the wounded. Real decorum begins with compassion. Real leaderships begins with listening. Do not mistake our grief, our anger or our persistence with bitterness. We speak because we had to live with so many. Luckily just have to witness. Thank you guys so much. Muslim, right? Um, I hear people talk about colorful language. I hear people talking about what's good for what offends people and what does not. But when did truth overcome what is right? When when when and when I say that, I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. When did what is right overcome people's feelings? Right? So, um we we have it where I've lost my little brother. I have to go in and chill with my nephews and they don't get to see their dad. They always talk about the things that they remember and the times that they wish they had. Um, and in addition to seeing that, we do the best that we can to even tolerate this council, the people in this council, the people who are supposed to be mother, well, who are mothers, who are fathers, right? The thing I I don't know y'all's history, but I can guarantee you that y'all have never been through what we have been through. Y'all don't have the loss of your son, of your brother, to where your nephews are like, I wish my dad was here. Y'all don't have it to where we have to come. I have to come up here every single every other week to actually be positive and everything. The thing is, I'll say it and I'll say it again. I don't take any of this back. I read the scriptures. I'm not Catholic. I'm not Jehovah's Witness. I'm not any of that. I'm a follower of Yeshua, my Lord and Savior, who created me. But when you look into his scripture, right? He talks about casting curses. And I stick to that and say to every last one of you that do not change from your wicked ways. I will never depart from that simply because the way you depart from your wicked way is stop upholding what is wrong in the world. Right? So right now I come to y'all not pleading anything. I just want you to realize that we are chosen. We are the Hebrew Israelites. We are we are the ones that that the Most High speaks of in the scriptures, right? We don't say no phony prayers, no quick, oh Lord, thank you for this food, this water, and and and do the cross, whatever symbol, and say, have a good day. Amen. No, I stay diligently talking to my father about every last one of y'all. And I have to pray. I have to pray, right, that he changes y'all hearts because it's not too late. But that day when it does become too late, there's no turning back, right? So the quorum, I don't care about nobody's personal speech and what they say or anything like that. It's what's in your heart. >> What are you really representing at the end of the day? Are you representing what is right? Are you representing what is just? Are you representing the people? Are you representing those who who actually are sticking up for others because you got a city council who is too timid to actually implement what they the powers that they do have. I remember first coming here, I used to always we always get told, "Well, we can't do this. We can't do that. We can't do this." And it's like, "Well, what can you do?" But the thing is, the moment we take you out of your comfortability, y'all don't y'all can't do nothing. It's nothing y'all can do right now. Y'all stay in that comfort zone. That's fine. I just warned every last one of y'all that want to stay there, stay there if you want to. Because the wrath I mean the the wrath is coming. It really is. People like, "Oh, I'm created by God's chosen." No, God didn't create people to not to not stand up for those who were poor and less fortunate. God didn't create any of us. If you're really a true follower of our Lord and Savior, you get in the mix of all of that and you stand up for what is right and what is just. You don't you don't just sit there and say, "Oh, well, God created me." God, he created all of us. But we all have a choice. Who is really going to choose to follow right now? This decorum that y'all talk about and everything that this council represents, I'm not saying everybody here is bad. I'm not saying that at all. But I do know the ones who are comfort in their comfort zones that do not want to get out of get outside of what is challenging. They don't want to they don't want to get into that space. I I thank I thank Yahweh. But the ones that have, I thank him so much for y'all, you know, and the ones that don't, you know. I don't have to call no names out. I know this for a fact. You know who you are. Um, and uh, so as we keep navigating this fight, I'm standing here with not just not just a Sebron family, not just a Kylin family, not my best friend was murdered by Denver police, right? Brandon Cole, you know, like I've had so many people die at the hands of law enforcement. But the thing is, I will not hate none of y'all simply because according to the scriptures, I can never enter the kingdom of heaven with that type of heart. >> Wait, wrap up. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't hear the line. I'm so sorry, y'all. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry, y'all. I'm out. >> Yeah. >> Um, are there questions from members of this panel? And you had mentioned earlier regarding this is kind of the last resort. What areas are you running? Who are you running into that's not giving you any information? >> And the only people that we know to go through is the law law enforcement, the law offices, the county offices. and you get nowhere, you go to city council. We are told that there are certain steps to take and this is the step for Aurora. We have went to Chamberlain. We have went to the chief of police. We have discussed with the office what this Lewis family, Rajan's family should be do and is not being heard or upheld because there's already laws in place that are not being upheld. So, we come to city council and we have been speaking. They've been speaking for over two years. I've been coming for now over a year. So there is nobody else to turn to for us but this council. You're afraid to go to the law enforcement and they're the ones who took your family and are creating a false narrative. Who else can you go to? >> Miss Corante, is that correct? Cory >> current um you had mentioned that when you've wanted to come to council in the past it wasn't an environment that you felt like you could speak are there um you know and you talked a little bit about right the not listening so that's a clear one that I've heard um the not respecting folks are there things that we can do kind of from a positive side that not just in terms of individual behavior but like in terms of our process toward the community. Are there things about the process that would create more of a space for community members um to comment? >> Yeah, I'm sure um I can probably think a little bit deeper behind that. I mean just I can speak to it for the space. When I walk into the space, you guys have these huge screens of bird view. It's just very intimidating. Uh eye contact has always been very important to me being raised. It's just it feels very unwanted. Like you don't feel welcomed. And it was interesting because I got thrusted into an activist life unfortunately about a year and a half ago. And I have talked in front of a lot of people and a little bit of people. and city the city council is probably the one that intimidates me the most. Um I've been to a few other um not meetings but locations where a few city council members attended and um it was the same as this. It was very antagonistic um eye rolling the spouses are commenting and throwing up their hands stuff like that. So to request or expect to have truthfulness coming from the community, it's not going to happen from somebody and just being transparent because of that, you know. Um I could go on and on about it, but I mean really that's that's my thoughts right now for it. >> Yeah. >> Questions from members? I have a question for uh I think thank you all three for coming and speaking. You've really kind of painted maybe how decorum can be problematic. You know that comfort versus loss and and where's the space for emotions and grief within decorum and public invite is a big question on my mind. But for the three of you, I'm just curious. I have not lost a family member to the hands of of the government. Um, so I can't I can't speak from that exact experience, but if you had a magic wand, you know, what would you change? And and and is there anything that that would change that would feel that would make you feel hurt or sufficient coming from the grief, coming from such a terrible situation, you know? Um, is there anything we could even do? And I know it's been a long journey. I know there's been fights. I know you all have have felt have been unheard. So help me to understand what the missing what's that bridge that's going to make it feel better >> and to change as far as a counsel or >> yeah just the whole experience public invite magic one I'd have my son back I'd have a fellow brother back was a distant cousin to my children I'd have them back if I had a bad but to be in this situation over what I've been addressed with and when I'm addressing, I would change the hearts and the minds of the city council and remind them that they're human. They once was on the other side of that podium, the lack of listening, the consistency of being in the phone. I've taken several classes. I've been to college. I'm pretty smart. I've worked in HR, customer service. The first line is eye contact, engagement, nodding of the head. Maybe during the council, if there's a question, the council can address back to show that they are listening because sometimes I want to council to repeat any major point that I've said just to know they took in one thing. I think for me, uh, it's probably very in line with my sister, uh, the lack of empathy, right? I think there's sorrow behind somebody being murdered, but it's so much deeper than that. Like, um, my son has nightmares. He's 21. Are you okay? Are you okay? No, he you seem like I didn't know if I was interrupting you or if I was bothering you. >> I'm trying to >> to do with >> But you're making yourself. >> I'm sorry. >> You're inserting yourself. >> I'm not inserting anything. That's in your imagination. Like, >> no, you don't need to be. >> Okay. Um, this is the exact person I was referring to that comes to the meetings that causes the chaos and it makes it what it doesn't need to be. My >> ma'am, please. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to you. So >> I think she was mentioning not council meetings. >> Anyways, so empathy, empathy and I worked with your daughter and it shocks me that this is who her parents are. So thank you so much. >> That magic wand would also to be able to put that grief that I feel that hurt into their heart. But maybe the way that it the words are being heard would be her given instead of automatically with this wall put up. There's an automatic wall which causes this discomfort for public to even come. Not once have I addressed this council by cursing, yelling, antagonizing, name calling. Not once. But I still get the same treatment that you have said that you've given Mr. K do Mr. Kylin Kylin Lewis or Kylin. I still get the same exact treatment and I've never disrespected at all. Samantha has never disrespected. I would say that many times you know your words and tonight all three of you about the experience of loss as much as it's possible to feel that that's the you know what sits with me is what would it feel like to to be the so I do appreciate that that's the purpose of coming and sharing in the way you do um it's helpful to think about right could we provide feedback We have to be cautious about how we do that to be honest. Um but could we come provide feedback in a way that um you know that people feel heard even if we don't have an answer. So that's helpful um for you all to to just share that. Um, >> I maybe I don't know. Um, that we as council are not allowed to engage in comics when people come to the guys to to the well to address the council. We're not allowed to say >> that's currently how the rules are written and that's part of the conversation here. You wouldn't want to change that, >> right? So that may or may not be a good thing depending on the type of comments that are made because you know some comments are inflammatory and I respect the fact that most folks except for Kevin and others come to the to the well and they speak respectfully. >> You don't have to, you know, it's okay. I've buried people too. I grew up in gang culture and in the city of Pittsburgh, so I I know straight real gangster. Okay. So I, you know, not I can't feel your pain, but I know what it's like to be a mother to deal with your children and things happen. I respect what you have to say. I don't know that the proper rule and we we're talking about the quorum the proper rule of government what we're supposed to do. You know, currently we're not allowed to address people. The proper role of government is to handle issues overall. the proper role in government is not to be in a position of saying we grieve. That's not the governmental function. So when people try to assign that to a governmental function doesn't it sounds but that's how the government works. We can't as as a government representative of the government. While we may personally feel some way about something, that doesn't mean that as in my role as a city council person representing 67,000 people on my board that I'm grieving or mourning or having emotional um experiences representing the government. That's not appropriate. That's not an appropriate role in the government. Now, I have talked to I've talked to your mom. We had a one-on-one conversation and this thing funds happening. You know, that is to the extent me personally that I could do. But as far as my role as a city council person, we have to follow the rules that dictate how we operate. And it may not be something that people like, but it's what the rules are. So that's what this I'm understanding that this is what we're supposed to be doing, trying to see if we want to amend those to be able to do that. Now, there's always tradeoffs in the Hards and Thomas. Well, if we do this, then we it could devolve into something that nobody really wants. So, we have to think carefully before we decide what we do here because it could go sideways and it could be really painful for everybody. >> And I think that will bring us to our 4B which is the council member the quorum and council member conduct because technically this is about the the general public and so we have it separated into two areas. Um, so I think when we get to that once we can hear more about that, but I do know that Miss Cron has indicated a a response. >> Yes. >> Which I understand and I do know your background because I do my research on everybody that I speak to beforehand. So again, I'm sorry for your loss that you have suffered in me, but remember the things that you went through as far as burials, the heartache, the lack of false thoughts, inconsiderate but considerate thoughts that people say because they don't know what else to say, you know. And I understand that that is now I'm understanding that that is a rule. I could have been full because that is how most of the confrontations go at council meetings. There is bickering back and forth. So I was not aware that council cannot say anything back and if they can't say anything back I think they should hold their body gestures, their breathing of in and out because body language speaks more sh than verbal language. So if it needs to be just there and talking to stone walls, then that's what it is, I guess. But it can be also revisited on a website, >> right? >> Make a letter and response up. It doesn't have to be right then and there. It could be another meeting upcoming. It does the response does not have to be immediate, but at least take something. let me know that you even thought about what I said and you even went home. It's not perfect only matters when you're in that seat because it doesn't just matter to me when I'm at that podium. I have to leave here and go take care of a grandkid. I have to leave here and make sure another mother is okay. I check on these other mothers. My son was not killed in your county again, but I I stand here with your county because you guys just see that Aurora has an issue. The people are tired. Respect is not given on either side. So let's as leaders show by leadership, show that respect and it can also be given back too. Are you able to address Douglas County? >> Now, Douglas County does not have a council team. They only have a board of commissioners at which I did address it. >> She eliminated public comment. >> Yep. So, um everyone's okay. We'll just take one last round of comment from the panelists, from members, and then we'll have our discussion. Any last comments from the panelists? Thank you all so much for taking the time to be here to share. Um I think actually there were a number of really good ideas that came forward, you know, and thoughts that we can consider of how we uh how we create a form. >> All right. Um so on 4A in terms of the quorum from the public you heard from the commenters that came to attend. We also did receive about 52 pages um of comment. A lot of it was about or of surveys. Um a lot of it was focused on what we can do as a council which we can talk about in 4. Um but some of the items I think can also fit in this section which is um identifying what do we do after public invited to be heard. Right? When we have an agenda item what we do is we make the decision on the item and we give our justifications at that time. But when we're on non-aggenda items, um I understand the concern about the idea of lack of responsiveness. And that doesn't mean we have to have an emotional response of I feel you or anything of that nature, but I do wonder if we could, for example, like recess and each member could have the opportunity, not the requirement, but the opportunity after like a brie recess um prior to the rest of the meeting to just think about kind of a digesting. these are some things I heard um to then share back. Um and so not right not arguing, not disrespecting um maybe not even having any kind of sentimental response, just these are the issues that we heard about or maybe it's designated to the mayor, right? we identify some way to either come back at that time or at another time and just provide a these are the items that we heard about. Um, so I think unless we haven't done this in a while, but I believe that what we've done, I don't know if it's in the formal rule or it's just an informal that at the end of public invite to be heard, then members can comment on anything. >> Haven't done that in a while. We don't >> council may clarify statements and may not engage in debate. um and may request followup um contact information that to provide followup. >> I y >> so what I what I would say is my advice would be uh there's a reason why elected bodies don't have the dialogue back and forth not because they don't want to hear from the individuals but we're human right the council members are human. You could have the best rules in the world, but if somebody gets a button pushed, that can turn that can turn south pretty fast. So my my advice is as you guys are looking to see what you can do to have the empathy and the response, be clear about it upfront, right? Whether that's the mayor or me when I get up there, city attorney to say, "Hey, please keep your comments limited things. They're not on the agenda." Whatever that is that we have, I think those are great for town halls. I think they're great for board meetings. I think they're good to have that dialogue, but you run the risk of that one time, right, where things go ary and that's that would be my and that's why most bodies do not have the back and forth with with the electeds during public comment because you want to keep that separation. But I think we you guys should establish some sort of rule that makes that clear, right? That this is why we're not doing it. It's not because we're not listening. It's not that we don't care. It's just that we have to be able to move on with the meeting and not have any disruption that could be caused by council members. I'm not saying it's coming from the public, but we saw that in the past, right? I think it's always been a problem with council members wanting to go back and forth. >> Yeah. >> And interrupt the speaker. And so that's an appropriate. But I do think that those comments relative to conduct is better coming from you than from me. I mean, and I will I mean, I will not here's my thing. I will not chastise anybody that's doing it. I I will be more than happy to, as I've kind of just started with the public comment. It's like I'm the neutral one, right? I'm I'm just trying to protect your right to be heard and be be in the record. Um that's up for you guys to you guys tell me to do it, but I Well, that's necessarily my rule. I'm not going to police the conduct at all. >> No, but I think I think just a statement up front. you know, making you stupid. I think coming from the city attorney. Yeah. Because they're coming from the name. Wow. >> I >> I guess you got a promotion there, Pete. >> No. Gosh, no. I I >> um so >> that guy >> I understand your point and again I'm not encouraging back and forth and I do think a recess would be required because like people right we are humans and people may need a minute to regulate. Um, but whether it's at that time or in some other forum, I do think because the public invited isn't followed by a decision from council um that it would be helpful to have some type of forum. I'm open to what that forum might have how a built-in 10-minute recess following public comment and that way people if they do want to go down just and I can say that up front. is like, "Look, if you guys that are speaking at public comment, council members may want to come off the dis and speak with you. So, please wait and stay until after because we'll have a 10-minute recess." And sometimes, and no requirement, right? Because I think that works because that allows people to go use the restroom if they need to. And but I think you put that in the rule and we can be very clear. >> I think that makes shall be attended. So, please stick around if you >> and then after we can do like a reflection if we choose. >> I think I think you could do that. um in reports because I think the problem that you get into is whatever's on the agenda. We may have other people that are waiting to present um you know on their agenda items. I'm not trying to just but but I think having that 10-minute built in that's that's a done that's it's set in stone based on your rules, right? Hey, we're going to have at least 10 minutes. >> I think that's good. And and but I think on council reports you're free to do whatever you want. >> You can say whatever. Yeah. I did just hear, you know, the call for um like sharing the burden. It sounded like there's an us versus them dynamic. People not feeling heard. So that's where I feel like an immediate if you choose reflection like when we have 10 students that come up to talk about, you know, the roar saves program like can we just say okay we hear you, we see you. So, I don't know. But >> yeah, and I'll >> do it in reports, but the people will be gone by then, most likely. >> Sure. I think that's why the 10-minute period would be important to go down because I think I, you know, like >> could go down. >> So, we would take it would be immediately after public comment. We have a 10-minute break. We'd only probably do that. I don't know. You guys have to decide whether you want to do it in both public comments. Maybe just the first one. >> Well, because the last one right before report. >> Yeah. Right. So, you do reports, right? So, you do that. Then they have the opportunity then you're then it's really personal. >> That makes sense. Okay. >> Right. That would be my idea. And then that way you guys can go down and have the conversations and and and I'll tell you I always struggle >> you guys too. You guys can put the best rules forward but you're never going to >> control the conduct of your colleagues. You're just not they have their own elected body or their own elected office. And so yeah, I agree. It would be great if everybody wasn't on their phone or doing it that whatever and listening, but I >> Yeah, you make a request. >> Okay, that makes sense. I thought it was like >> No, no, no. >> Processing break, but I hear it like we can go down. >> It could be follow up. You don't have to go down, but again, if you choose to >> Okay. >> And it may be something that is dear to your heart, then maybe not dear to another council member's heart. So, but I think again, it's built in like we it's not that the mayor calls it. It's built into your rules. And I can say that if you have me do the the form statement at the beginning going, "Hey, this is this is what this is. We're going to have a 10-minute recess. Uh this is what it is." And and again, going back to Ka's comment, it's like I will never advise and we put in the quorum statements we'll get to and you can't use profanity, but we probably will say we prefer if you do not. That is completely fine. There's no penalty if you do it, but we would ask you prefer that you do not. And so that's kind of the kind of where we are. the show. >> Um, and then another item that was raised in the survey was by a few people was for council to be available to also greet people as they enter the meeting so that people don't just first see you up there, you know, on the dis in the impersonal sort of situation as Miss Cory mentioned and so I do wonder if we could try to like schedule our study sessions and exact session so that there's at least time available for that. Um I know that makes it hard because we already um you know >> I'm cutting debate off just to get on schedule and so to try and do that earlier. >> We may be starting a lot earlier today. We've heard >> we've heard some we've heard some feedback from your colleagues that the more earlier we start during the day the harder it is with work and everything else. So, >> right. >> I mean, yeah, we'll do what we can. I I >> I think that's discretionary. I mean, if you want to >> I just wanted to note that as another item that was mentioned in terms of just again that like humanizing the interaction because it does set a tone >> that are so you're not thinking making that >> I don't know that we can because of the conflict >> at least not this year. I think we should have a conversation about going back to having study session and council meetings on alternate weeks so that we're not always in that rush. Um, but that's not that's not that's not a meeting for that's not a discussion for this meeting because I have a hard time we uh >> yeah because we don't um have the ability to just change the calendar or unanimous vote. I thought it was unan calendar changes. They're unanimous >> once we've set the count council meetings. I mean you could you could make a virtual the study sessions but >> yeah but anyway that that's a separate discussion not for today and we do have a number of other items to get to. So out of respect for folks time we'll move forward but that's just one that came up that I thought was valid is if we can't talking to folks before um greeting folks to the board meeting. Um, okay. So, in the interest of time, I am going to go ahead and have all the speakers that signed up for 4B come up as one panel. Um, which was four speakers and then we'll do the Q&A. So, that's uh Mr. Aante Anderson, Mr. K Dot, Miss Samantha Granti, and Miss Veronica Zrock. Three minutes per person. Yeah. For this portion. This is on the city council member decorum. Um and so some of the things that we have had come forward in the survey are that council members should have additional forms of censure available above and beyond just our kind of uh symbolic censure process but actually could be suspended from meetings, removed from committees, have travel budgets and other types of sanctions put in place um for violation of deorum. Um and that the quorum right what does the quorum mean for council I think is the other kind of general topic of discussion right what should be the expectation of council as the people setting yourself um for the meeting and the conduct before >> we go there real quick we so in 4 a it sounds like I didn't hear any objection from the members for the 10-minute recess following public invited you want me to draft that as part of the And then I think the other thing we have to include is the prior conversation about if folks consistently members of the public consistently violate the rules. Right. >> Right. If they're warned maybe you say three warnings and then a suspension from being in the chambers but not from being in the building. Right. That they could be in the lobby watching but they can't comment or be in the chambers if there's a repeated violation. Again, this we will have a meeting next Monday as a listening session on decorum that folks can or not next Monday, sorry, Monday the 11th. Um, as well as our final meeting of this body on May 21st as well as the study session and a council meeting for as we're making and bringing forward these rules, additional options to comment on that on for a but if you can draft those so that we have those available. Yes. um for comment. And if other folks have anything um that wasn't in the minutes >> um from the last meeting that you'd like for the city attorney to draft as our draft recommendations that we're going to discuss on the 11th and then make a final decision of this body on on the 21st and then go to the full council. um please email or you can also take the survey and add it to the survey or if it's members of this body please email myself and city attorney um for any additional recommendations on public comment or the quorum recommendations both expectations of conduct and um sanctions for um but with that said now we have 4 B which is on city council member conduct Um so it's all ready refrain from personal attacks stay on the topic of the conversation are the main kind of overarching um and professional >> three minutes and 10 minutes how much long is the discussion after that >> we'll do 15 um just because we're approaching time um and so yeah so debate decorum focus on the issues no attacks of a personal nature And it should be the role of the mayor to redirect. Um and then the censure was up before but right censure is very formal and very thought at this time. So if there are sanctions that folks would consider as well as expectations of conduct that folks would consider to raise in your comments. And really quickly too, I mean maybe you guys would like to hear I mean as the parliamentarian for council is it appropriate for me to state the rules right the rules in the beginning whether that would be better coming from I don't know I like to get some feedback from the public too if they want to state anything about that I just >> okay how we >> how do we how do we get this >> mind of the council >> as me as the impartial parliamentarian or like I don't have a dog in the fight I'm just the appointee right up here saying what it is right >> and are we talking about the decorum not to the corn state but just the the rules and or to the court say I don't know it could include all that yeah >> but just speed it' be nice to I I don't know what the public would like I >> right that's all okay so we'll go ahead and start I'm just going to go in the order that folks are on the stack so Mr. Anderson, you'll be first. >> Um, great. Thank you uh for having I think this conversation. I think that over the last two years we've seen uh behavior unbecoming of elected officials um from uh from from the Aurora City Council and the mayor. Um I definitely know that I was a target of one of uh the Facebook post of the mayor u saying that I had moved to the city and was planning some sort of takeover. that's not happened. I know that Median Schaer was a target or a frequent target going on mayor social media post. I know that the mayor had also some we had a very spirited engagement um after a council meeting um that I would say that was inappropriate. Uh, and I even know that there have been cont com comments um from council member Hancock at the beginning of our uh arrival at city council um calling us terrorists, provocators, etc. um anarchist and then uh I could spend 30 minutes talking about one of your former council members that shall not be named. The voters uh fired her. Don't need to talk about her. Um but um even past all of that, even there being time between the incidents that I just mentioned and now um even just the engagement sometimes at council meetings, I think I mentioned it a few weeks ago, my your mics are still on. Please like I would definitely advise all council members unless it's the mayor to turn your mic off. Um if especially knowing that there are several of of folks on council that are oppositional to the voices that you hear. um being able to then go back and listen to the live stream and then you're like you're hearing the conversations y'all are having on the mic while we are talking that I think adds to that piece of decorum that we uh definitely should have from our elected officials. um some of the engagement back and forth at times uh between members of council um whom have disagreements um and will openly will start speaking when another person is speaking um at the the the public time or the public to be heard time I think is just is inappropriate as well. Uh and so moving forward um it is my hope uh that when those spaces are breached, when those um when individuals are now being um called out or attacked or whatever the word you want to use um unjustly and it it is it is not based in a policy debate. It is now based in a we're going after each other again um on um political differences. that's when I would encourage council to enact sanctions or censure or whatever that may be. Um ultimately the fate of that individual is up to their their electorate. Um but definitely um I believe that the silence is an endorsement of one's actions when the council refuses to acknowledge hey that was actually appropriate that was across the line for us as elected officials. Heard your alarm. That is when uh when you're when you don't say anything, the silence endorses that person's action. >> Right. Uh Mr. K. >> Yes. I want to point out a few things. Um yes, as far as the forum, you need to be consistent. Uh not about each other's parties, but about we the people. That's who you represent. You don't represent a party. represent the people or um also I'll have to step off the pew. Um I'll piggy back off of just a t here. Um yeah, I don't think it's quite polite of you to especially Mr. Mayor. Um we have as I'm speaking or anybody else speak if I issue threats which I never did it and never will because indefinitely you don't do that. >> I'm way more intelligent than you think I am if you simply have a conversation. But interrupting my speech walk with your glo is completely inconsiderate. It doesn't show compassion. It doesn't show a sign of deescalation and leadership. It shows escalation and tearing. That's what it shows. Um, also you uh, Miss Hancock, um, as I was speaking, you when I allowed you to speak, um, at these future meetings that we, uh, will continue to have and continue to have conversation. Uh, I would prefer you not interrupt me while I'm speaking because I didn't do a T and you're and you speak about respect and all this type of stuff and you clearly didn't you clearly didn't uh show that and it's for the record. Regardless of what you said and I I didn't like or agree or whatever, I allowed you to speak at the end of the day. I didn't interrupt you. not only that um like call out like what he had said the whole didn't even apologize to my um my family about what you said as far as the whole um actually voted against it. So, you actually condone your behavior as far as name calling. Uh the same exact name calling that uh you accuse me of. So, that's where your that's where your your actions are hypocritical. You said provocators, antagonists, and terrorists. Completely not true. Uh completely opinion-based. And you didn't deescalate at all. You all you did was escalate that that situation and you never apologized. >> Thank you, Mr. Kada. Miss Karante alarm scares me. >> Sorry. >> No, no, no. It's me. Uh, I probably spoke a lot about it at my last um, speech, so I won't say much this time and give my time back to you guys, but um, I think everybody that I've interpreted has to a little bit different. Um, again, I've done a little bit of activism work and I be cussing like a sailor out my neck sometimes and that's my spirit at that moment. Other times, I think it's respectful to show respect because I want respect and I want my words to land properly. And if I had any advice, that would be the advice that I would give because that's what I give my kids. And not that any of your children by any means, but I'm sure many of you probably have children. And I think me saying that will resonate with you on a different level than saying you better effing listen to me because I'm in pain and I'm angry and this is all I have. This is my only way of getting out of or off my spirit the rest. >> Thank you so much. I'm going to start by saying every action has a reaction. The reaction has retaliation. The reaction and retaliation is looked at the most, but it's the action that started it. Like I've said before, I'm fresh into Aurora and only just over a year, year and a half. I have seen not just only in council meetings, the body language, the antagonizing, the eye rolling, and the under the breath just as well as from the public. But again, when you're in leadership, you lead by example. You also lead by understanding the heart of the speaker and allowing at least some room just by human courtesy and sympathy for what they're going through. Now, I don't condone the back and forth, the threatening, but like Deontay said, mics have been on. Just because what you say is not as loud as what the public said is still heard. I have heard nasty comments from almost each council member up there. Even if they don't lash out, which they often do, I've heard it on the play date. It is hurtful as a mother, as a citizen just trying to come and make a change because all of us leave our counties. All of us travel from county to county. Again, it becomes a border. But Aurora, let's be the first. Let's lead. Let's be the first before Denver. Let's be the first before Douglas. Let's be the first in Colorado to have that community support that advocacy. Remember before you guys got to these positions, how hard you worked, the doors you knocked on, the phone calls you made to get where you're at. You remember that? Do you remember the hang-ups, the door slams? and how that made you feel. I'm sure you all have went back and cursed and frustration. Remember that you're human because I think that has been lost with the seats that you have taken. It is now just a title and a duty to sit there. I've seen some changes in Aurora Council, but it also looks like an act. So, let's just remember where you came from and the hardship you had to deal with. And none of those came from the grief and loss of burying a child, from the loss that suffered. And so just hear us out and give the action that needs and you want to be deserving the reaction. >> Thank you. >> Um all right. Any questions from members? Um, and if it was very helpful the reminder about uh our mics and the interrupting and the toe and the body language. Um, just a helpful reminder to us. Mr. Anderson have a question or comment. Yeah, I just also wanted to just like state that there have been several times, I want to at least say four or five times where y'all have almost lost Median and I from coming to your council meetings, which would have been great for I think y'all and and saved us time. But it has been the the actions upon of members of the council and on those of the day that keep us come keep us coming back legit. Like this is not like a a a lie or anything where Medi and I walked out of this building. We've said we have we want to make sure that we allow the process to do to do what it needs to do from those that are doing other things to seek justice for their family. But it has been your actions that continue to draw us back in. And that is a that is a a space where I think that needs to be said is that understanding when you you all have heard the message for two years. You probably know at this point anytime that we going to get up where you know exactly what we're going to say almost verbatim. You probably could give us a a speech, write the speech for us at this point. But knowing that it's those small things. It's the eye rolls. It's the the comments in the microphone. It's the France putting her head down and and rolling the lifting up her face and then rolling her eyes and making faces at at folks and then when somebody says something to her, she starts shouting. It's those sort of things that's like, okay, clearly the message isn't and you haven't heard the message enough, so I got to keep coming back every single every two weeks. I'll be honest with you, I don't like driving over here. I don't I don't I honestly do not like coming to see y'all every other Monday now, almost every Monday. But it is because of the back and forth that gets that has that is a it's almost a I have to keep coming back because clearly it's not landing. And then a side a quick side tangent and and I would be also happy to give this up is that second hour of public comment at the end. I think that there is a a valuable resource in that. Um but there's been a consistent theme of youth coming to your council meeting and I think it might be a time to take that second hour and actually apply it. And this might make your council meetings go a little bit longer into the evening, but I would actually start doing a youth hour of public comment that's specifically for Aurora youth so they don't have to compete with people that have issues with the pothole. They don't have to compete with all of the other issues. But you have these these groups that are coming to you that are young people that want to be heard and instead of them, you know, hit or miss, can they get on the agenda or the the speaking list or not, you move that hour at the beginning up uh and push public invite to be heard back an hour and then even if they don't show up, they don't show up, but at least you offer the time to make space for those young people. I think it's been a consistent theme in your council meeting that they need their own spot to be able just to engage with council that doesn't feel like, well, that was intense. that come after, you know, us, you come after us and you're a young person talking about some issue that has nothing to do with what we're talking about and they may change their comments or views or may feel differently um or even going beforehand, but I think they deserve a dedicated time with you all. Sorry, that was not even on the topic, but I just wanted to make sure I spoke it in >> back to the Friday topic and I think we can without objection add it to the draft um ideas of what we do for public comment. say we yeah we can combine those we can take the second one off and put it in the beginning and have a youth first and then you guys can go after that way the youth feel empowered >> I I think you all would like to see us go at at 7:00 and I think we don't have I mean that also eliminate it's median and I that stay through the meetings right and then there's there's a handful of others but I think putting that to the people of saying hey we're going to eliminate this other hour at the end for the kids I I don't see anybody arguing going toe to toe with the kids Just just so let me get your thoughts too. So 17 and under, right? 18 and older would go regular. >> 17. >> Okay. 18 and under. People are still in high school when they're 18. Yeah. So high school students. >> High school or 17 and under. >> Just say high school students, right? Because there are also some students who are in high school for longer for >> Oh, I got those. Okay. So students, right? Okay. So students that are Okay. Um and >> for the first hour >> for the first hour and then whatever we don't use we just roll into the the other public comment we don't >> at the end at the end. Okay. >> Thank you sir. >> All right Mr. K. Um, on a serious note, I know we had our back and forth and I know how we personally feel about each other. Um, but professionally and as a taxpayer of the city and of the person who also helps represent the city because I'm very highly respected in the city. Um, I do want each and everybody in this room, uh, as far as the the elected officials, from the city managers, from the city attorneys, I am rooting for y'all. There's never even when me cussing you guys out that I ever want you guys because if you lose the peers, at the end of the day, we just want to be heard. That's just want to be heard. Mr. Mr. Mayor, I do want you blamed, but you got to come to the table and talk to us about about that. What that looks like unveiling that Hancock come to the table. We don't like each other and that's fine. But I do want you to win because at the end of the day, those two and 3:00 those 2:00 phone call that I get about police misconduct, I wipe tears from from those mother's eyes, from those from those kids eyes. You're not in those wombs. That's where all that fire and passion comes from. It doesn't come from just anywhere. These people are hurting. You have to understand I talked to I'm in the streets with these people. Not just with with with the people, but with the police. There's several police officers who came to me and told me, "Well, I can't do that because there's going to be retaliation as far as blowing. Why don't we have integrity awards for officers?" >> You know, I apologize. I'm sorry. My bad. >> And like, let's have a separate conversation on that. >> I can That's it. Please swing >> for the people. That's it. I'm sorry. >> Any further questions on this panel >> about this? I would I would also just ask or um about the quorum of council members just acknowledge that you I mean not just acknowledge that you do have a a platform that is going to reach more people than anybody that comes to public comment. um regard whether it's on social media or at a council meeting, your platform, your words are going to always have a have a broader platform than those who come before you. Um and the mentality for when folks are coming to you shouldn't be a tit for tat of like, oh, they said something I didn't agree with, so now let me use the power of my office to issue a press release or do this or do that or the third. It shouldn't be about I need to score a win or I need to you know people have to hear I disagree with them. It is hey I do disagree and you can say I disagree with this this viewpoint but this is a way that I'm this is these are the things that I do think that have been said um that I could be able to do differently. I I definitely think that when we are talking about police violence, I understand that you're in a situation that's like for a school board member. If if somebody comes up as a school board member and they're like, "Well, I, you know, we want a personnel issue with this teacher and demand the board of education do x, y, and z." There are definitely times where the teachers union would demand the school board do something that the school board would say, "We cannot do that because we know that we are going to be pro possibly in litigation with that that individual." and that compromises us as a district. However, there would definitely be times where as a schoolboard member where I could go to a a teacher and say, "Look, I can't talk about your case, but I can at least or talk about the your your grievance that you have with the district, but I at least can empathize with you and just say, I want you to know I hear you." And that that goes a long way to at least feel that you are being acknowledged. It can go a long It can go a long way being able to invite all of those families in that have been that uh that have been impacted by police violence and to say you know what let's have a round table with you all. Let's figure out where we have failed systemically as a system in order to be able to change because I went back and looked even after Elijah Mlan everybody had different individual statements but I don't believe there was a collective action as a city to say you know we went through the process the jury spoke that this is their decision Shannine Mlan and the family of Elijah Mlan let's have conversations about how we can change as a system and those are the things I think that you all have to just remember is whenever your name is signed, council member, mayor, city attorney, city or city manager, that comes with a different weight than Aante Anderson is now going to speak for three minutes. Then Median Schoffner speaks for three minutes. Then Londa Jones speaks for three minutes. And I think that there there's spaces even in disagreement where we can say systemically we can figure out where we can come together even without compromising our ability to defend ourselves or our employees. Any further questions? Thank you so much for taking the time for speaking. I do see that Miss Vian and Miss Laur are online. Um, and I didn't think we were going to have virtual public comment, but since we have a relatively limited um number of folks and they are online. Um, if there's no objection from members, I would allow them each three minutes to provise comment. I'm council member Dorum. All right. So, uh, >> are they permitted to unmute themselves >> if they're allowed to unmute? Um, we can start with Miss Median and then Miss Oranda. >> Well, thanks so much for the opportunity. Are you all able to hear me? >> Yes. >> Great. Um, thank you for the opportunity to chime in. Uh we I've been listening um essentially for the entire session. Um I'm just going to take some of my time to formally acknowledge the power of the voices that are there. Um Veronica Sebron, you awe me every time you speak. And so sis, I just want to applaud you for your ambition, for your discernment, and for your honesty. Samantha, you every time touch my spirit and the way that you lean in with gentleness and fierceness in a combination is absolutely incredible. So, thank you for standing in that space because I know that you are echoing the mothers and the families that we are building community around. Um so for the council um I I do want to say that there is absolutely opportunity here for there to be something that is curated that can look much differently than it has before. I will also say that I heard terms like compromise and what I am imploring that everyone take a moment to do is to break down the walls of the defensiveness that are clearly still in the room. This is not a time to be defensive. We are now in a in a moment of collaboration. We don't have to like each other. We don't have to agree on lived experiences or world view. But what we have an opportunity to do is to collaborate. And that is going to require that everyone speak into this space with honesty, but also with acknowledgment that there is room for us to hold truths and to reconcile in a space that currently does not have trust. I have to admit that I am not highly hopeful that we have leadership amongst everyone that is sharing in that space right now to do that. But I will stand in expectancy that each and every one of us, myself included, find a way to figure out what does collaboration look like. When you talk about pain of community, that is a level of expertise that I can assure you that no one wants. Veronica C. Bron has an expertise in that room that no one wants to sign up for. When Londa Jones speaks, she has an expertise that none of us want to sign up for. And if we as a body of people cannot leave room and deem them as the experts, then we are failing them. We are failing ourselves and we are failing the joy of those that come beyond us. So when we talk about decorum, this is not just about a step by step or a checklist of rule. Decorum requires that we understand that there is an interconnectedness that we cannot get away from. So it is my hope that we are able to collaborate and come up with innovative opportunities for there to be engagement, thoughtful engagement and for this to look differently. The power has always been with the people and no matter if you are elected or not at the end of the day you are also the people. So understand that this is not us versus them. This is what are we going to do in this time? >> Thank you, Miss Median. Um, now Miss Laur, you have three minutes. >> Yes. Hi, everyone. So, I've been listening also and I second everything that Meden said and thank you everybody who is there seated at the table and that is speaking their truth. But I want to bring out um for me personally, I don't want to be in this seat that I am, but I'm forced to be because that is my truth. That's my realization that my son is no longer here. And for me, my justice look looks like that for public safety, for Rob to hold for me personally, I can't speak for nobody else, for Rob to hold and city council members to hold the rural police accountable and not only a a slap on the wrist, which they don't get anyway, but to be reprimand. And as for I listened to Miss Hancock talk as well. Um the meeting that we had together um it was powerful but it was not brought through from the words that was said privately in that room. And also what she said about council member cannot talk back to the people. Well, I'm here to say again, correction on that because I don't had and seen several um members talk back uh interrupt in in hatred, in frustration, in madness. So, they talk when it's feasible for them. They talk back when it's feasible to to them to talk back when they feelings is hurt or when they feel like they have to defend theirself. or their character in front of public. But that all that shouldn't even matter at this point. What should matter is that we come together to come up with change because we all know this system is flawed. We as people are human and we do make mistakes. But the important part is that we learn from the mistakes and we do better. And I think this is a time that we can make these things happen if we only work together. Not people having attitudes or happy when they feel like it when everything going their way or they hear what they want to hear and that makes them feel comfortable. But it's time to be uncomfortable. This is not the time to be comfortable. It's time to be uncomfortable. Because when you uncomfortable, you got to do what it takes to get things done and hopefully done the right way. We all should be standing on the side of justice at all times. It doesn't matter what color we are because to me, all lives matter. And that's what I stand for. And that's what I'm fighting for. That all lives matter. And we all have a part to do. We all have a work to do. And if we do it together, we can get it done faster and we can get it done the right way where it will stand and stick. And that means holding the people accountable who need to be held accountable and giving praise to the one that deserve the praise. That's what I will say on that. And I appreciate you guys listening um to me today. But I feel I I hope that you hear me and move in action and not just say words, but I want to see action done as we come together. >> Miss Rhonda, >> appreciate you and appreciate everyone coming. Thank you for the folks on this panel again for your additional comments. Um on that, we'll talk about kind of the next steps for the council member decorum piece. Um, and then if everyone's okay, we may need to asynchronously revise the uh the decorum statement uh because we're getting close to the end of time. >> We only noticed till 7:30, right? >> Yep. >> So, we got to be careful. >> So, next time let's do 5:30 on expected to have last at least 7:30. >> Okay. Because right now we do anything, it's technically outside the time it was posted. So we really can't we can talk about what's put into the draft anytime, right? >> But we can't approve anything, >> which is all this is. There's no there's no action item. >> Let everybody know in the >> um >> yeah, we'll do that. We'll put it on the next agenda for the the decorum statement. We'll just put a draft um for approval. Um but for council the quorum for the draft next time we had talked about potential sanctions um that were included in the survey. So that could include suspension from meetings, suspension or removal from committees and removal of travel budgets. >> Yeah, I gota be careful. So the only the only time that we can suspend somebody from a meeting would be exact session if they violate. >> Oh, right. >> We can't suspend from the regular meetings because it's their office. They have to be able to participate. But we can exclude. Again, that would probably be for disclosing items that are discussed in executive session to the public. The sanction could be, you know what, congratulations. You don't get to be in sessions now. >> And what about for committees? >> Same thing. Yeah, you could you could cut I mean they could come to the meetings but you can cut their >> remove them as chair >> chair or vice chair. >> Um you can also remove them from the committee and just say you're not a voting member. You come to the meeting but you can't vote. >> Pete and I talked about this the issue with again with and the reason we can do that is because nothing is decided at policy committee. So again, so they you can go up to removing them from it just that's removing their sort of input to it, but again we can't keep them coming from a council meeting. >> So because it's that they have that right no matter what their conduct is and ballot boxes. So >> okay, that's helpful. And then in terms of just the actual conduct as we have already refraining from personal attacks um and maybe we add in attacks of a personal nature on other members or members of the public um as well as there's used to be and maybe it's still somewhere and I'm missing it but behaving with professionalism and uh respect. Um or maybe it is there and I'll just >> and I kind of what I was thinking as we were you guys are all talking about it's like I I still think my advice would be to not allow it back and forth but give you let's have a process. You do it once and say you get emotional. You get a warning from the mayor, right? Hey, that's your that's your one warning for three months, whatever that time period you want it to be. You do it again within three months, then you're subject to potential consequence. I mean, I guess it gives everybody a freebie to have if you guys want that. I'm just throwing ideas out there. Um, >> also to figure out where this >> where is the impetus? Where's this coming from? Because what I understand, uh, a lot of this stems from the previous counicular person on the previous I think so. >> So, so are we suffering the ramp the the blowback of what happened at the last from the last council? Is this what this is about? because I am not aware that people on this current council have been making public personal attacks on people during council meetings executive set. So I don't understand what this is. >> I don't know if it's necessarily um attack but engaging with the speakers because I think it's safer for the public and for council to not engage during public comment. >> No, you I'm talking about the censorship thing with the consequence >> with the council member. So where where's that coming from? I mean, I think if we're going to have, and we talked about this last meeting, I think you didn't weren't able to make it, but that if we're going to have consequences for the public, like potential suspension or removal, and we don't have consequences for ourselves, that's really uneven, especially when we already have the more power in the situation. This is about creating the tone, right, wherein we have accountability just like the public does. um and that we're responsible for the way the meetings go as well and how we conduct ourselves in those meetings. Um and these are proposals, right? None of this this isn't a vote. This is stuff to bring forward for consideration to the public comment listening session to the next meeting of this committee and then to study session and council meeting. So there's four four more opportunities to make changes to this still moving forward. So these are just some ideas that have come up from comments we've received from members of the community, comments that council members have made, ideas from discussions with the city attorney. So these are just these are just ideas right now. These are >> I don't think any I don't think anybody I've seen on the current council would would meet these requirements. just to put collaborative rules in place that if something does go ary later on, everybody's, you know, under the it was subject to the same rules. So, I agree with you. I I I do think that we did have on the previous council, not naming names, not going to go into that, but there were things that happened that uh put me in a bind legally on certain things as you all know. And if I can prevent some of that, if Jason on some of the policy stuff could prevent some of that stuff, it makes it better as you said the rules. And so I don't expect >> understood I I'm another thing too that wasn't mentioned um you know watch I read the surveys too that came back and a lot of people mentioned uh they felt intimidated by folks in the galley um with the clicking and the snapping and the coughing and and the outright insulting comments. one uh woman came to testify and she was afraid to walk to her car >> because of the atmosphere inside. So, you know, when people, you know, say they're being disrespected and they're, you know, it happens in the galley. So, >> we talked about that last meeting. So, we're going to include the what we just talked like I talked about earlier about you get a warning, they do it again, they're going to be asked to leave and they're going to be trespassed from being in the council chambers the next meeting. >> Yeah. Because you know DC when when Al Green put his sign up they escorted him right out of the chamber. He didn't even get to speak. So you know how is that different from this? We want the same kind of respect in the galley in in the at so people who come to talk about potholes and you know and grass and you know food trucks and the things and the things they want to feel like they're able to do that without fe feeling scared. And I mean that is what I'm getting. People feel scared and they shouldn't feel scared and they're staying home, >> right? >> And there should be no >> shouting at or even addressing, right? That is something I want to say. Yeah. You know, >> the other members of the audience like that. Yeah, that should be right out. And we did talk about that a little bit last time as to what's going to go in the proposal. So, sorry I forgot. >> Yeah, because we because I even had one of my attorneys that uh at the last meeting got threatened. Yeah. >> From the galley and I had to have her escorted out. And so, and I talked to Mayor Time about that. It's like we need to be able to have consequences for that. Yeah. And so, >> I feel like you're very impotent in that area that you just, you know, people just run a muck and we can't do anything about it. >> And clapping. I'm a little less like I know there are a lot of comments. >> No, I mean, while they're talking click, I mean, >> right, >> that's the only reason why I would say maybe you say clap also because it delays the next >> it delays the next speaker. Right. >> So, I think those things we can also talk about um >> while maybe having some like reasonable ways for folks to demonstrate agreement, right? I don't think we need to be intimidating someone that we disagree with them. But right, maybe we reinstate reminding folks that, you know, you can rise to express agreement or let other folks in the audience know to rise to express agreement at some point during the speech without having clapping, cheering, >> all those booing. We certainly don't want any booing, any shouting or any threats of people that are out there speaking. I think that's something straightforward like >> you cannot shout down people on the whether you're a council member or a member of the audience. >> All right. So I think >> an idea of what to bring forward. >> All right. >> Thank you for that good job there. >> Thank you to our staff for your patience. I know we're past time. Um and we'll see you next time. going to be our