Welcome to the October 20th Planning and Zoning Commission of the City of Plano. I call the meeting to order at 6:00 pm. If all would please rise and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. I do kind of an echo in here. One moment. We're having a technical difficulty. Okay. Should be good to go. Okay. That's. That sounds better. Thank you. All right. We do have three commissioners absent this evening. Commissioners Tom Bender and Ali. We believe Commissioner Ali is on his way. Hopefully he'll join us here shortly. So. Comments of public interest, comments of public interest. This portion of the meeting is to allow up to three minutes per speaker, with 30 total minutes on items of interest or concern, and not on items that are on the current agenda. The Planning and Zoning Commission may not discuss these items, but may respond with factual or policy information. Planning and Zoning Commission may choose to place the item on a future agenda. The presiding officer may modify these times as deemed necessary. We have one speaker. Mr. Bob Pannell, with NT, M, H and L. Good evening, sir. If you'll just state your name and address for the record, please. Good evening, Chairman Radcliff and commissioners and staff, and I especially am glad to see Mr. Mike Bell sitting here. And I make public profession right now that I forgive him for all the grief he's caused me throughout the years. And I look forward to Mr. Drew Brauner for reconciling all of that grief for all these years anyway. For the record, I'm Bob Parnell. I'm a 45 year resident of Plano, Texas, living at 3209 Winchester on the west side. I'm also a member of Plano Masonic Lodge number seven, 68 F and Am, and have been since 1985 when I've affiliated when I moved here from San Antonio. I'm a past master and the current secretary director of its affiliated North Texas Masonic Historical Museum and Library. My purpose, Mr. Chairman, tonight, is to thank not only the Commission, but especially to thank your first vice chair, Commissioner Bronsky, who graced us two weekends, two Saturdays ago with his lovely lady when we celebrated 100 years of occupancy of possibly the most notable downtown historic landmark and designated heritage resource, the Moore House Plano Lodge Building, and we thank him for being there. He was there when the mayor gave us a proclamation and even sat through the presentation, which was a long history of what we had done there from 1924 and even before until the present day. But we thank you, the commissioners, for dedicating your time, devoting your service. That's something we as Masons understand. And because of you, you've made our life better. Our city, prominent, and you made masonry possible. Thank you. And thank you, Vice Chair Bronsky. And to your lovely lady. She was awfully gracious to us before she left. You made our evening enjoyable and made it a success. Thank you sir. Thank you for your comments. All right. Consent agenda. Consent agenda. The consent agenda will be acted upon in one motion and contains items that are routine and typically noncontroversial. Items may be removed from this agenda for individual consideration by commissioners or staff. Commissioners. Anybody would like to remove an item from the agenda tonight. Before. Are you are you wanting to make a motion before we go to a motion a second? We do have one. Registered speaker Lucilio Pena, I think you meant to register for item one on the regular agenda. Not correct. Okay. I just wanted to make sure before I didn't call your name. Okay. We will move you to that item. Thank. Thank you for clarifying. All right, Commissioner Bronsky, I move. We approve the minutes as submitted by and recommended by staff Commissioner Lingenfelter. Hang on. There we go. Now try it again. Consent agenda. Consent agenda. All right, I'll second. All right. We have a motion and a second. Please vote. Motion passes 5 to 0. Items for individual consideration. Items for individual consideration. Public hearing items, unless instructed otherwise by the chair. Speakers will be called in the order. Registrations are received. Applicants are limited to a total of 15 minutes of presentation time, with a five minute rebuttal if needed. Remaining speakers are limited to 30 total minutes of testimony time, with three minutes assigned per speaker. The presiding officer may modify these times as deemed necessary. Administrative consideration items must be approved if they meet city development regulations. Legislative consideration items are more discretionary except as constrained by legal considerations. For non public hearing items. The Presiding Officer will permit limited public comment for items on the agenda not posted for a public hearing. The Presiding Officer will establish time limits based upon the number of speaker requests, length of the agenda and to insure meeting efficiency, and may include a total time limit. Item one would you like me to read both run at one A and one B together, please. Agenda item number one A request to rezone from agricultural to single family residence attached and for a specific use permit for a private street subdivision on one lot on 3.2 acres. Located on the southwest corner of Windhaven Parkway and Red Wolf Lane. This item was tabled on August 18th, 2025. The petitioners, Trammell Crow Company, Number 43, et al. This item is for legislative consideration. Agenda item number two B Austin Ranch Phase eight addition block a lot 115 single family residence attached on one lot on 2.3 acres. Located on the southwest corner of Windhaven Parkway and Red Wolf Lane. Zoned agricultural. The applicant is Trammell Crow Company Number 43 et al. This item is for administrative consideration pending approval of agenda item one. A just for clarification, you said item 2BI think you meant item one b correct 1B1. Just want to make sure we're on the. Okay. So item one A and one B is the ones we're considering right. Yes sir. Hang on. Yes sir I just noticed item one A lists 3.2 acres and item one B says 2.3 acres. Yes that's correct. So the 3.2 acres is for the zoning boundary for the to the center line of the adjacent right of ways. And then the concept plan just shows for the property which is 2.3 acres. So that's the discrepancy. Thank you. Good catch. Thank you. All right. Staff presentation. Good evening. Commissioners Molly Corral, interim lead planner. The subject property related to these items is located at the southwest corner of Windhaven Parkway and Red Wolf Lane. And here is the associated concept plan with the zoning petition, which we will get into more detail later. The request is in two parts. Item one a the zoning petition includes a request to rezone the subject property from agricultural to single family to agriculture to single family attached, as well as a specific use permit for a private street subdivision. Item one B is the associated concept plan that is a part of this request. The concept plan shows 15 single family attached units with detached garages on a single lot, which you can see here. The stars represent each single family unit and then the triangles are for the related detached garages. Primary access for this for these townhomes is from a one way slip road parallel to one way Windhaven Parkway, which you can see the arrows showing the direction of the one way road, and then the detached garages are served by an alley which connects to the slip road. Alley access will connect to the driveway, serving the adjacent multifamily development to the west as well. The private street subdivision requires a specific use permit request. The private streets must be designed to the same standards as public streets, which are provided in these street design standards. It's recommended that access to the alley be gated from the adjacent property to the west, as well as additional setback requirements and landscaping, which are stipulations also associated with the SP. To the northeast and south of the property are existing single family detached neighborhoods. Multifamily unit uses are located to the west of the property within the city of the colony. The property. The proposed rezoning request would provide a compatible transition between the multifamily development and adjacent single family neighborhoods. Additionally, the placement of higher density single family along major roadways is consistent with the typical neighborhood design set forth in the Comprehensive Plan. The subject property is located within the neighborhoods category of the Future Land Use Map. Per the analysis of the Comprehensive Plan, the request to rezone the subject property from agricultural to single family residence attached is consistent with the description of the neighborhood category, as single family residential is supported as a primary use within these areas. The description of the category emphasizes the need for a new residential infill project products to be within the context to to fit within the context of the surrounding environment. The location of this development aligns with the typical neighborhood design recommendation for locating attached residential development along major roadways and neighborhood edges to provide appropriate transitions. Additionally, the request would bring the neighborhood category closer to the recommended range of the mix of uses. And, and the request is in alignment with the character defining elements as well. Overall, the request is in conformance with the Comprehensive Plan, future land use map and related policies. As far as responses received for this case within the subject property, one response in support of the item was received by the property owner and then within 200ft of the request, 12 letters in opposition were received, which represents three and a half acres, or 39.7% of the surrounding property. Overall, 91 responses were received. 90 of them are within the city of Plano, and one of them is located outside of Plano city limits. That's excluding the duplicate responses indicated on this slide. In summary, the proposed SFA district is consistent with the Comprehensive Plan and the request for a private Street subdivision meets all requirements of the subdivision ordinance and street design standards. And lastly, the associated concept plan meets all applicable requirements for the single family attached district. Staff is recommending approval for the rezoning from agricultural to single family residence attached for approval as submitted, and for the specific use permit for a private street subdivision. We are recommending approval, subject to any access to adjacent property to the west. Must be gated. Any street or alley must have a minimum setback of 15ft from the southern property line, and the setback must include a ten foot wide landscape buffer and a minimum six feet tall landscape screen. Landscape screen will be required between any street or alley and Red Wolf Lane, and no access may be provided to Red Wolf Lane. For item one B, we're recommending approval subject to City Council approval of the related zoning case, as well as approval of any variances to the International Fire Code by Plano Fire Rescue prior to site plan approval. Thank you. And I'm available to answer any questions. And the applicant has a presentation as well. Okay. Thank you. One quick question. You said in your presentation that it's adjacent to multifamily, but in looking at the site out there, it looks like this exact kind of single family attached product is next door. So is that zoned multifamily. But it's developed as single family attached or it's within a planned development within the city of Collin with within the city of the colony. And it's it's interesting because to the immediate west, the the products there match very closely. There are two story products with detached garages which the applicant can talk about more as far as compatibility with the proposed design here. And then as you get closer to stag leaps, drive the buildings along Stag Leaps Drive are more of the three story, more multifamily projects. So there's definitely a transition between like the lower density, but they're all on the same property. So yes, that's why I was asking because. So they're all in the same zoning district. It's just even though it's developed as two is pretty large in the colony. I don't have a copy of it here with me today, but it's a pretty large boundary. So I imagine there's quite a mix of different uses and stuff allowed by right in that plan development. But is it fair to say the property right next door is similar to what is proposed? Is that correct? The applicant can talk more about that. But as far as height and the form of the projects of the buildings just immediately to the west, I believe that is a very similar. Okay. All right. Thank you. All right. Commission questions for staff. Commissioner Bronsky, one quick question. I noticed in a lot of the comments that the public made referenced traffic studies. Am I correct in understanding that on page ten of your report, the table and the paragraphs that includes is representative of a traffic study? A traffic study was not required to be conducted for this project based on the size and scale. Those numbers that were generated based on the projects were generated by our traffic division here, and that's based on the average amount of trips generated for similar uses. So those numbers were not a result of a traffic study, but a result of staff's analysis. Okay, I, I wasn't sure the terminology, but I did want to that you guys did do some effort as it relates to traffic that would be generated by this. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Bruno. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm looking at the graphic, the concept plan and item one B. It shows what looks like to be a curb cut or a median cut along Windhaven Parkway to allow westbound traffic on Windhaven to make a left turn into the property. Is that median cut present at at the moment? And if it's not, who is going to be responsible for putting that in? Commissioner? Commissioner Brounoff. So the so I just want to make sure I understand your question. So there is on the western side of the property, there's an entryway for the slip road. And that is an existing median opening today for people to turn into the property okay. All right. Thank you. Commissioner Lingenfelter. I know fire and everybody every department looks at this. But I was concerned about the 16 foot slip road and and traditionally a fire lane is at least 20ft, 24ft. What, what how are they getting around? What is what is going on there? So fire is able to get access from Windhaven. So they got a they got a 150 foot hose, lay around the whole building from Windhaven. I believe one of the. I believe there still needs to be worked out. I believe that there's a whole variance that will need to be acquired for site plan approval, which isn't uncommon. But additionally there was some comments about I think a fire hydrant needs to be added somewhere on site, but fire indicated that only a variance would be required so they'd be able to access, I guess, the fire. I guess the fire hydrant would be along windhaven, since that's the only access they would have. They actually cannot. They can't get a fire truck in that area, that slip road they won't be able to use, I can tell. Yes. So that was a concern, obviously. Okay. Commissioner lolly, I have actually two questions. My first question is do you like the height limit? It's going to be two feet. Commissioner. Stories. I'm sorry. Is it the height limits for these detached houses? It's going to be like two story only. So the the height limit for this, for the single family attached zoning district is two stories or 35ft in height. You can't you have to comply with both. You can't have anything taller than two stories or taller than 35ft. But that height limit is the same as many of these surrounding single family zoning districts in this area. And you like. And this is going to be for single family. Is it going to be for like purchase or for rent? The applicant has the applicant is showing the project on a single lot, which is allowed per the single family attached zoning requirements. My understanding is that these will not be for purchase. Oh, so it's going to be for rent. It's on a single lot and so it will be managed by a single property owner. So I believe so. Yes, the applicant can speak more on that. Correct. The city's ordinance does not regulate for sale or for rent in this zoning district in this style of development. So the applicant could choose to rent or to or to sell them. Yeah. Because like a lot of the comments from the neighbors were like about traffic and everything. So if it's going to be like a for purchase, single family is just like any other single family around them, right? Right. Well, the traffic generation would be the same if it was single family, if they were individual lots, or they were developed in one lot, the traffic would be the same. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Please note that Commissioner Alley has joined us. Welcome. All right. Any other questions of staff? No. Seeing none. Let me open the public hearing. And then I believe the applicant has a presentation. And I think we have. Two different speakers registered from the applicant, Mr. Pena and Miss Billingsley. Miss Billingsley. So. Good evening. My name is Lucila Pena. I live at 1720. Well, I reside 1722 Ruth Street, suite 770, Dallas 75201. And I want to start off with how we approach this project to begin with, but some questions were asked about compatibility and what we had in mind in terms of approaching it. If you look at the property to the west that is in the city of the colony, it is all zoned multifamily, and our approach was to put the high density buildings away from Red Wolf Estates in the single family. And so all the buildings went as far to the west as we could on the street. And everything that is adjacent to the existing single family. We put the buildings that you saw outlined were actually one story garages that act as a buffer to the, to the, to the single family, and then on the north side facing Windhaven, the two buildings that you see built there, they are two story brick buildings that are townhomes and they are for rent. So our intent was to continue the style and the product type of the two story townhomes along Windhaven in this section of Plano. So that was the overall approach that we could have. Built three story buildings much closer to the single family. And we deliberately or intentionally didn't, you know, just being sensitive to the neighborhood. Okay. The so that is what we have proposing. We have been working on this for quite some time and over the summer met twice with the hoa's represented in the various neighborhoods to get their feedback in terms of what they wanted and what they didn't. We got a long list of their preferences, but let me jump into the list of what they requested. They wanted to reduce the density somewhat. Right now we have 2.3 acres. The density here is 6.49 units per acre. We started out with 16 units on four buildings, and we now have 15 units on three buildings. So it's a slight reduction on the roads. This seemed to be the biggest concern for all the residents, which was closing access to Red Wolf Estate. They're concerned that the traffic is very heavy on Windhaven, and that they didn't want people from from the multifamily cutting across to Red Wolf trying to avoid the traffic. So after going back and forth with the city in terms of traffic and circulation, we agreed to close off all access to Red Wolf Estate. So that was the second item that they had requested. In addition to that, there was a concern over height limit. As was explained earlier, SFA allows two stories or 35ft. We have agreed to restrict the townhomes to 25ft so that we will not be using pitched roofs. This adds to the cost because flat roofs are more expensive, but it's in the spirit of the townhomes we have already built, and we have agreed to add the additional restriction of 25ft instead of 35ft. In addition to that, it was requested by the Red Wolf Estate Association to build a 12 foot fence along the south edge of the property. Number one. This is in violation of the city code, which allows a maximum of eight feet. Somebody on Red Wolf Estates on the southwest corner has built a 12 foot fence next to our property. This is in violation of the city code and should be taken down, and therefore we did not agree to build a 12 foot fence. In addition to that, they requested a 20 foot landscape buffer on the south side of the townhomes. We have provided in the landscape a 15 foot landscape buffer plus an alley. So to there is a larger buffer, but 15ft of that is landscape. In addition, there was a lot of concern about garbage and dumpsters. We have provided a location for dumpsters on the site, as required by code for the city of Plano. So we have that location. It is fully our intent to service this from the multifamily side and not have any dumpsters or garbage on this site. It will be handled by the adjacent site. I know that you can't control that, and therefore we're providing the site for the dumpsters, but it is our intent not to have that there. Those are the main highlights. I think we addressed a lot of the concerns, but I think that there's just an objection to anything that is in single family on this site detached, single family. But other than that, the main concerns, which were traffic height, landscape buffer, you know, garbage, etc. have all been addressed. Thank you. I'm here to answer any any further questions. And I think there's other people. And miss Carol, do you have the aerial that shows the massing of this product type with the existing property? Let me see if it's further towards the end. Yes, I believe if you if you keep because I think yeah. Can you click forward. There's like a oh there. Sorry. My apologies okay. There you go. This is all the information okay. This was the style that we were talking about. But right now it's pretty much going to be along the what is on the bottom left in terms of the brick townhomes. These are the unit plans of what we're proposing. This is a section showing the the townhomes itself. So on the left would be Wind Haven. On the right would be Red Wolf Estates. So you can see the garage which has the pitched roof and the townhomes on the left. So you can see where the heights are. This is an aerial that shows the existing townhomes that are built in the back, and that then the three new buildings that are five units each, that is gives you a sense of what the overall massing is. And here's one more looking at it from the other side, where we are keeping the landscape buffer to the south and creating an additional distance just to try to keep most as many of the existing trees as possible. So I'm happy to answer any questions, but all right. Thank you. Commission questions of the applicant. Commissioner Bronsky. So I've got one question and I've been looking at this and I visited the site. How in in looking at this whole thing going together, I understand that there's a lot of traffic that goes along windhaven to midway. Right. And I'm wondering the thing that worries me most is the 52ft between the slip road and Red Wolf Lane, and have you had any thought about the traffic that may take your slip road to try to get in front of others, to then try to wedge themselves in before they're trying to get to midway? Well, we have discussed this at length, okay. With the with the city staff in particular, because there were a lot of concerns from engineering. And one of the solutions was to make the loop around the site one way so that people wouldn't be getting in, and we ended up doing it all clockwise. But when we agreed to close off access to Red Wolf, this was one of the concerns that came up. And we feel comfortable with the solution that we came up with, with staff. Okay. Yeah. My concern is just somebody heading that direction on Windhaven trying to cut across. Just cut, cut around 5 or 6 cars and then wedge themselves back in with 52ft between that next street when Windhaven is crowded. I just wanted to clarify my understanding of how that worked out for you. So thank you. Pardon me. Just so the commission and the applicant is aware, we do have one of our senior traffic engineers, Chad Ostrander, here as well. If you have any traffic questions specifically for the city, we can also answer traffic questions. Wait till our turn around. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much, sir. Thank you, Commissioner Lingenfelter. Also, I and I'll probably talk with the traffic is that is probably my biggest concern, which I alluded to earlier with the fire lane issue and our very narrow driving. I mean, you got ten foot alleys, 16 foot, you know, that slip road as well as what Commissioner Bronsky talked about being 52ft from a from another roadway, essentially, that's that's pretty tight from from an engineering background. I just I'm, I have a lot of concern with some, some of that. And I know they alluded to maybe you you're already kind of talking about fire access fire hose lay typically have 150 foot hose lay that should cover the entire building. I don't know you have that. How how are you getting through that? I mean, the fire access is from Windhaven, as was explained earlier, and that is being met. We studied two different options on this. One was having the slip road in the front and the other one was not having a slip road at all in the front, and just creating a loop that entered from the north northwest, went down through the alley to the alley so that the residents and any visitors can park in the back, and then would come out at the north east corner. So if you look at the existing townhomes, they have landscaping in the front. They don't have a slip road. And we proposed both options and went back and forth with the city. But we are I mean, our concern is really getting the access to the garages in the back, but what prevented you from just pulling the the buildings forward towards Woodhaven and just having like you just described a loop that went around the back and kind of a dual drive back there that would be wider, that would serve the garages as well as the B a a proper fire lane. The city has the city has a requirement that we do not allow residential units to front directly on a road as big as Windhaven, so we do require the slip road, and the slip road and the alley are designed to meet our street design standards with the widths as well. Okay, okay. And I also had another question. You talked about a flat roofs. Do you intend to put AC units on the top of the roof? And I saw there was a parapet. I couldn't tell by your your drawing how tall that parapet is, but I assume it's screening potentially AC units. What are we talking about there. The AC units will not go on the roof. They will be on the ground and the we are limiting it to 25ft. So the parapet will be very limited because at 25ft you're looking ten foot floor to floor, two feet of structure. So you're looking at 24ft. You're probably having maximum like a one foot parapet. So restricting it to 25ft is a big concession going from 35, which is allowed by SFA down to 25ft. Yeah, I was doing the math. I was like, you're not going to have much room for 25ft to to screen anything. So I was picturing a bunch of AC units sitting on top of these, and the ones that are built there on the ground as well. Okay. Commissioner Alley. I got you. I think the three issues here. One, I think we're going to have the traffic engineer kind of like. Comments on that issue. I'm trying to figure out where your trash collection. If you go look at the site there, where would that be? I was trying to look at it on the concept plan, but I couldn't quite pick it out. Trash collection is along the alley. There's those bump outs. Those are for residential card service and that's for residential card. So the bump outs kind of in between the garages okay. Yes. It's actually. Is there a concern that that puts trash collection closer to the single family detached. So the requirement for the CART service bump outs were per city's comments, so that there was enough room to have cart service provided potentially in the future. However, the property has indicated that they are electing to do their own private trash collection as related to the adjacent property to the west. My understanding is that they do not plan on utilizing those bump outs, however, we are requiring them so that there is enough room to have carts, not block the driveways. And if there's a situation where it's city provided trash collection, do are we confident that the alleyway has enough space to go in and out to do all that? Yes. This design was evaluated by our environmental health department and given the green light. Okay. Thank you. Commissioner Brounoff. Thank you. Are all these units going to be two bedroom units? No, there are ten two bedroom units and five three bedroom units. Okay. I'm looking at the concept plan and it shows the detached garages. How many parking spaces in the garage are you allowing for each unit? There are two spaces per unit. Okay. All the units allow for tandem parking. Okay. You can see it on the site plan. All right. And that's covered in the garage. Covered parking in the garage. Yes. Okay. Building three, it looks like the buildings are or or rather the individual units in that building are a little narrower but longer compared to the units in buildings one and two. Is that correct? Yes. And those are where the three story, the three story. Those are where the three bedroom units are, which is the reason that you have a different floor plan there. Okay. And have you do you have a handle on on what the the rent structure is going to be the what I'm sorry, rent structure. Yes. We I don't have it in front of me. But at the time the HOA had requested what the rent was, what the occupancy was, what the turnover has, was and we gave them all the information. And essentially these units, they're not a lot of these units around. So when they rent they don't have a lot of turnover. The residents tend to stay there. You know, it's a pretty stable. There was a lot of concern of you could get a lot of roommates moving in and create a traffic problem. And the we gave them all the numbers of what we are seeing in terms of the occupied units, and that is not the case. So our intent is that these would probably be renting at about call it 225 a square foot. So you would have to have a fairly high income in order to rent in one of these townhomes. Okay. And what is the square footage of the two bedroom and the three bedroom units? Remind me what I know off the top of my head. Yeah, yeah. If you want to come down and add to the presentation, that would be great. That would be great. Thank you, thank you. If you state your name as well, please. Good evening. Juan Torres, 2152 Springwood and Carrollton, Texas, 75006. To answer your question, the two bedroom unit has a net rentable square footage of 1350 five square feet and the three bedroom townhome units are 1730 one square feet net. So that's usually what we use as an indicator for against rent times $2.25 a foot. Yes. Correct. Okay. These are more than $3,000 a unit. That's correct. A month 3894 for the three bedrooms. I see we have another. Thank you. If you'd like to step forward, Miss Billingsley, and introduce yourself, please. I hate to be left out of the crowd. Lucy Billingsley, 1722 Ruth Street. And it's typical in studying the cost of rent to say, what is that relative to someone's income. And the strike point is usually 28%. So we were I just lost it three times 2.25 equals times 12. That's $36,000 a year in rent. And then you divide it by 28. Someone's salary should be about $130,000 for the two bedroom. Okay. And while I'm at the mic, might I say that we appreciate and respect and agree with many of the comments that you all have been making about landscaping and the road and the circulation, and we've come to the conclusions where we are, first off, to respect no access to Red Wolf. And second, everything else is driven by the city, what the city standards are. So we're doing all these steps strictly to be in compliance. Thank you, Mr. Bruno. If you have any other questions. Okay. Commission, any other questions of the applicant, Mr. Bronsky? Yeah. Miss Billingsley, don't get too far away. So some of the concerns about these properties are the long term. You're a long term player in the city. Is that fair to say? Right. And is it my understanding that this is not something you plan on turning over? It's something you plan on maintaining. That's exactly right. We bought this property over probably 40 years ago now, and the property is actually owned by our children who are in the business. So we are multi-generational, long term players and have owned the development next door, you know, since we built it. Thank you very much. I just wanted to get that. Okay. Any other questions of the applicant? Okay. Not seeing any. Thank you all very much. Thank you. All right. We have other speakers registered. We do have two more registered speakers. The first is Bianca martinez of Midway Park Homeowners Association, followed by Tatiana Ramirez. Please state your name and address. First timer. So go easy on me here. This is very interesting to watch unfold, and I have a lot of respect for what you guys do. My name is Bianca martinez, 6009 Madera Court. Let's see. Actually, now that I know there's technology involved. To give you a little bit of perspective. Let's see, there was a really good one here a second ago. Okay. So when you're looking at this diagram here I am going rogue. I brought the paper I brought the paper. I tried but so basically I'm the president of the HOA that you will see in this diagram. That is in the gosh, that's almost my backyard upper left quadrant there. And so our perspective is very different from everyone else. You're going to hear tonight. Essentially, we are probably the least affected by any of this redevelopment rezoning. But I will say I think that gives us a unique perspective to kind of look at this objectively and say, hey, you know, we've all looked at this plot of land for quite a while now and said, gosh, what's going to come of that? And as I've learned more, I've spoken with Molly and Chad and everyone really and gotten to know, you know, the Billingsley's, it's just it's apparent now that it's almost in our best interest to lock this in with people that are willing to work with us. And so you'll see, too, that, like our neighborhood, we don't have access. We have an alternative entrance and exit, like into our neighborhood on midway. So we don't even need to go through the, you know, craziness of Austin Ranch. You know, forgive me for saying that, but we're a little bit less affected on the day to day when we look at like, Point West and everyone. I mean, they are always making that left hand turn over. Windhaven if I'm being quite honest, this isn't a problem regarding this little plot of land. This is more so just the Austin ranch just growing and growing, and we are the main thoroughfare to get to the tollway. So are these 15 units going to really affect that? No, in my opinion, you know, I think I fought Chad on that. Initially. I was like, what do you mean? This is, of course, is going to open up a whole artery from the backside. But you know what? I think the biggest thing here is compromise. And, you know, Lucio, everyone there willing to work with us and just kind of say, hey, what do you guys want? And what would make you kind of support this coming to your community. And so in that regard, I was like, well, if I lived in the Fox Hollow neighborhood, I would not want the access point from the, you know, back artery of Austin Ranch to end up in this neighborhood. So they were more than willing to close that off entirely, which was huge, because as I came to find out, if that didn't happen at this meeting, that was never going to happen. Once that was there in the sidewalk and you have an egress out into Red Wolf Lane, that was always going to be there unless Billingsley came back and said, oh no, now we want to close it. That's not going to happen. And so I was like, you know, what do we do to get this to the point where it's an awkward piece of land? It's not going to unless anyone here wants to buy it and turn it into a park, which we would, you know, we'd all love. I wouldn't expect, you know, Plano to do that either with, you know, we're surrounded by Arbor Hills and Sunset Park. I mean, I would never ask Plano to, you know, buy the land and turn into a park either. What are we going to do with another one? And so when you look at it from the grand scheme of things, I would rather see a controlled set of townhomes that match the ones that are already built next door than have some kind of, you know, urgency where everyone's trying to build more multi-family. And now we're, you know, we're fighting a three story something or other that's entirely wrap it up for us. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, totally. So long story short, I honestly, I feel like this is a great compromise to what was initially proposed, and I think it would fit into our neighborhood. These kids will go to school with our kids that are tenants here. And, you know, we welcome more people coming into our elementary schools and everything. So long story short, you know, I support this as proposed currently the revised plan. Thank you very much. All right. Next speaker. Next speaker is Tatiana Ramirez. Please state your name and address. Yes. Thank you. Good afternoon, chair and members of the Planning and Zoning Commission. My name is Tatiana Ramirez. We have lived in our current home for 11 years and in Plano for 22 years. Our home directly faces the existing townhomes. Given this, I'd like to share my experiences with them, their alley and our backyard are separated by a brick wall, since their landscape only includes two retained trees and 12 shrubs, we have had to dedicate significant time and resources to making up for the lack of an effective buffer on our side. We now have 13 large evergreen trees. Unfortunately, even these have not provided enough privacy to reduce the noise from the barking dogs. People lingering at night, or cars playing loud music. They have also been unable to block people from repeatedly throwing stuff over the wall, such as trash, toys, cans and firecrackers, with the latter being a major safety concern. We are also constantly fighting against invasive vines and suffocating weeds coming through the wall, which curl up around our tree trunks and weaken them. We are tired of bringing it up to their groundskeeping to no avail. Despite our extensive landscaping efforts, these problems still remain and are challenging for us. In closing, we respectfully, respectfully urge you to consider these issues and the consequences that further rezoning would have in our communities. Thank you for your time and consideration. Thank you very much. Any other registered speakers? There are no registered speakers. Okay. We did have is it for other people registered in opposition? Just wanted to acknowledge that we did get your registration. So thank you very much. So no other speakers registered. I'll close the public hearing. And oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I was registered to speak. We had let me okay. Let me reopen the public hearing. Hang on. Reopen the public hearing. We had four people registered as opinions only who did not want to speak. If you'd like to, we can call your name. And if you would like to come up, you're certainly welcome to. So if you'd read their names out loud and if they'd like to come up, we'll certainly let them speak. Of course, we have Mary Helen Nolan from Point West Hoa and Christy Davidson, followed by Shivani Mehta and Bobby Koehler. So sorry if there was confusion. You can register to speak or not to speak and just register your opinion. But if you'd like to speak, it is a public hearing. So if you just introduce yourself and your address, please. My name is Mary Helen Nolan and I'm the HOA president of Point West neighborhood, which is would be directly north of the proposed project. The 2.5 acres under rezoning consideration, we feel, should be consistent with the surrounding Plano, not the colony neighborhoods i.e. Red Wolf Point, West Fox Hollow, and Midway Park, which are all single family homes, not apartment or townhome complexes. Additionally, we would ask that there be a traffic analysis regarding traffic load on Windhaven as has been articulated earlier, Windhaven carries a heavy traffic load and this road has become a racetrack for the multiple apartment complexes and puts us at risk daily. I've lived in Plano for 15 years in this same home that we built, and I've had a major accident which nearly took my life, and I'm concerned that daily, as we try to cross that road, coming out of Point West and make our way east on midway, it's going to be continuously harder and more difficult. And at age 77, I'm a I'm a good driver, but I feel like I'm taking my life and my hands with the situation as it is. And the last point is that we back up to the Billingsley apartment townhomes near us, and the trash containers are forever flooding over. There's not regular removal of the trash, and there's been a rodent problem fairly consistently. So I thank you for being our advocate and and defending us toward the petition to deny the Billingsley Project. Thank you very much. Thank you. Next up is Christy Davidson, followed by Shivani Mehta. My name is Christy Davidson. I live at 6505 Timberwolf Trail. I've lived in Red Wolf Estates for 24 years. One of the original homes in Red Wolf. And when we bought our house, we always knew the field behind us with the longhorn cattle would not stay. We knew one day it would probably be developed, but we naturally assumed it would be single family homes like the ones that surround the property now. Never thought it would be an extension of Austin Ranch. In addition to the added traffic that we'll have to deal with because it will be used as a cut through, Windhaven comes to a complete stop in the morning, so it will be a cut through. We have to contend with the 30 trash bins that will be behind us, and will add to the rodent problem that we do have at this time, but mostly esthetically it it doesn't fit on that corner, it doesn't fit with the neighborhood. And once they cut down the the trees that border the property, that would give us a buffer. We're left with views from our backyard of 25 foot buildings. You know, not what we signed up for. Again, we have met with them, the representatives, in good faith and hopes of maybe having some input. Our takeaway was quite different. Not not too neighborly, and I do appreciate the shrubbery they want to use as a buffer. But we all know what shrubs do in August in Texas, they'll be dead. So, you know, our fear is if this zoning is changed, we don't have any assurances of anything. What will actually go there? We just it scares us. I mean, this is our home. This is where we live, and we just want the best for our families. So anyway, thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. Shivani Mehta, followed by Bobby Koehler. Good evening, and thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Shivani Mehta and my family and I live on six, five, one three Timberwolf Lane. Unlike many speakers, we are new transplants to the city of Plano. But we come committed. We uprooted our kids, ten and eight year old daughters from Orlando. Very happy place for them to the city of Plano. And we are here because my husband is adding 150 jobs to the city of Plano, all high paying, six figure jobs and building office in Granite Park. So I am here to oppose this development site. I want to start by first acknowledging the builders effort to bring new housing opportunities to Plano, and to express that we as neighbors, neighboring homeowners, are not opposed to responsible development. Our goal is to simply ensure that any project approved aligns with the Plano zoning principles, particularly those related to compatibility, privacy, esthetics and neighborhood character. Again, City of Plano, not the colony. So several aspects of this proposed proposal conflicts with those objectives. The increase in height and density will create significant sight, line and privacy intrusions, particularly because our backyard, where our two young daughters play, is directly adjacent to the development. Additionally, the proposed removal of mature trees that serve as a natural privacy and sound buffer contradicts to the city's tree preservation and landscape buffer policies. Under article 17 of Plano Zoning Ordinance Ordinance, which encourage maintaining screening and canopy buffers between residential uses. Furthermore, Plano City zoning ordinances and the city's Comprehensive Plan together restrict the development of multifamily units in areas that are surrounded by single family homes. Specifically, the zoning code removes multi-family housing as an allowed use in designated residential community districts, meaning that these areas are reserved for single family residences and not permitted for multifamily development. The Plano Comprehensive Plan reinforces this policy by stating that single family residential should remain the primary use within neighborhoods. That, and encouraging the preservation and enhancement of these uses. Any new residential development, including multifamily, must be appropriate for the area based on the future land use map and site specific consideration. The plan explicitly limits small scale. Sorry, 30 more seconds. Okay, so I think you get the point. We are opposed. I respectfully request that the commission reject the rezoning effort and. Thank you for your time and for upholding the planning standards. I appreciate thank you very much for your comments. Next speaker is Bobby Koehler. Good evening. My name is Bobby Cuellar, 6528 Timberwolf Trail, Plano. We have lived in Plano for 20 years. I've been a resident of Red Wolf Estates for the last 14. I am that someone that the gentleman behind me referred to earlier as having built a 12 foot fence for which we have a variance request into City of Plano. We have a hearing scheduled for November 11th for it as well. The neighbors next to me, who have been there for 30 plus years, have a 10 to 12 foot concrete fence. I'm surprised that they never brought that up before. My home actually sits behind the three story buildings that were built. I have 178 windows and doors looking straight into my house, into my swimming pool, my master bathroom, my master bedroom. From my family room, I can see a six story garage building that's been there. Well, it's my fault I didn't bring it up when the development was going on, but what my neighbors are about to experience is exactly what we've been living with. The reason this 12 foot fence issue was brought up by the gentleman behind me, 2014. The trees fell on my fence. We reached out. At that time there was no development there. We heard from no one. We paid for that fence. We built it back up. In 2024. The trees fell again on our fence. This time I reached out to them and I was told to settle for 10% of the portion of where the trees fell, and we had repeatedly requested them, please prune the trees, take care of this. This is a constant issue. What these guys are facing as well behind me. When they came back with a ridiculous offer of fixing part of the fence, I have seek legal counsel. We are in a lawsuit with these, with these folks behind me, and they, their legal counsel, threatened me to go to City of Plano and say, well, you built a 12 foot fence. It'll be interesting if City of Plano finds out about it. Sure enough, two days later there was an inspector at my door. But like I said, we have followed the process. We have a variance request in, and we have a Board of Adjustment hearing scheduled for that as well. So their future is what we are living currently. The three story buildings, 200 plus windows looking at us. And yes, I have the trash bins right behind my fence. So rodents, all of that stuff is real. Anybody on this board is more than welcome to come to the facility. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much for your comments. All right. Do we have any other speakers? There are no further speakers or registered opinions for this item, but for item one B there is one registered opinion. Okay. Why don't we go ahead and let that person speak if they'd like to? That is Aaron Sisson. Aaron, if you'd like to speak. Please state your name and address. Sorry, it's my first time. My name is Aaron Sisson. I'm from 8300 Elk Mountain Trail from McKinney. I'm not really like a member of Plano. The reason why I'm here was to hear you guys discuss about the the various urban projects around this area. So why I find it interesting is that the company who plans to build the multi-family and zoning units, they're trying to make sure that they meet all the safety standards and regulations that. Correct. Yes. I mean, they have to meet all the city codes. So, okay. And I also understand is that a lot of residents are complaining about it because they're said to be a lot of trash, a lot of rodent problems happening around here. Is that also true? I believe that's what the comments have generally reflected this evening. Okay, so the reason why I'm asking is that I'm not really sure if there's any construction going on next to these family places and whether people out there are fighting against it, able to win it or not. So I'm not really an expert on it. I just want to know what's actually going on. Yeah. So I think that's the purpose of the hearing tonight, is to make sure everybody's aware of what's being proposed in their neighborhood. And so in this particular case, we're just talking about this one tract. But you're certainly welcome to follow along with what we do and on other projects as well. I can also ask, is this the first time that whenever someone or some contractor decides to build like a two story townhome or any other adjacent single family homes, that people have complaints about, that it varies by track, by track. So we have requirements under our ordinance and also under state law to have public hearings for different cases. So it depends on it's very site specific. But but it is not the first time that we've had public hearings regarding development. We have one almost every meeting. Okay. So there have been arguments about whether it meets the subdivision organization and the substandard safety standards. Okay. Then if anything else, then I don't really have anything else to say. Okay. Well, thank you very much. Thank you very much. All right. So now I'll close the public hearing and reserve comments to the commission. Does the commission have any other questions before we get into our comments for staff? I think there were a lot of questions about traffic. So why don't we deal with that first? Commissioner lolly? So I did have a question to staff. Is these now we're voting for changing from agriculture to single family attached and not multifamily like 3 or 4 story residence. Right? That is correct for the zoning. These are single family detached, single family attached, which is different from multifamily. Yes. And there's a limit to the height, like you said. And then the like. The applicant also confirmed that it's going to be 25 foot. Yes. So the article 9.1 thousand of the zoning ordinance is what dictates the zoning requirements for the single family attached district. The applicant's request to develop single family townhomes on one lot is permitted per the single family attached zoning district. It's not multifamily. And I do have another question because like of the flat roof is are they going to like the residents have the opportunity to use those flat roofs, or is it going to be like a roofing system that they can not use, like is there a limit or like a construction, like a regulation prohibits the use of roofs? Why don't we? Okay. Real quick, sorry, sorry. Just to answer your question. No, those rules will not be used under any circumstances. Roofs that are used for terraces or anything else are very, very expensive. And it's a completely different type of construction. So there is no way that these would be used in any way. Regular flat roof TPO or something. It would be a TPO roof. That's exactly what it would be. Thank you, thank you. Does that answer your questions? Yes. Okay. Commissioner Bronsky. Go ahead. I just wanted to make a quick clarification. You mentioned the 25 foot height. I just want to let the commission know that that that is not a restriction that can be placed on this. It's a straight rezoning. So it would follow the maximum height of the zoning district, which is two storey, 35ft. So can I clarify that just to make sure, so that the 35 foot would be to the top architectural element, is that correct? The average. It varies by roof type, but the highest point on the average of the four points for a flat roof okay for flat roof, but still be restricted to two stories, correct? Okay. All right. I'm sorry, Commissioner Bronsky. I took some of your time. No. Okay. Let's talk traffic on Wind Haven heading east. So from my understanding, it's mile. Mile and a half from Redwood or Red Wolf to Midway. About. Right. It's it's it's less than that. Less than that. Okay, Chad, please state your name and title. Yes, my name is Chad Ostrander. I'm a senior traffic engineer with the city of Plano. So what's the what's the approximate distance then? Ballpark 1500 feet. 1500 feet. Okay, so is it fair to say that traffic backs up on Windhaven to the west of what this proposed development is going to be? Yes. It doesn't it does not back up all the way to Stag's Leap. But in the a m peak, when people are heading towards Dallas North Tollway, it does it does back up into this section. Okay. So my concern is that especially even Miss Martinez mentioned that this backup that the slip road be used to cut out. I don't know how many cars are the length of that slip road to get around to the front of. So what? And then with only being 52ft to Red Wolf, that that could really cause some traffic problems, if not accidents or angry people watching this transpire or even backing traffic up onto the slip road, while several people try to make that loop. So the the 50 foot separation from the driveway to a residential local street is compliant with the street design standards. They our requirement is 50 foot tangent and they're just over that. So they they do meet that in regards to using it as a potential cut around to skip, you know, maybe 20 cars that could happen. It could happen with any of our cross access type facilities that occur throughout Plano. And I don't see that as a driver. I don't see that that would save significant time, because I'm not suggesting that it saves time. I'm suggesting, you know, because I've read some of the studies that talk about even when you're weaving back and forth, you're saving less than 2 or 3 minutes on an hour drive. Yeah. My thing is, is I could see this road backing up and then trying to get back out. To me, it's just from a traffic engineering standpoint, it just seems to me to be very challenging or difficult, especially with that distance to Red Wolf. Yeah. We when we were working with the Billingsley's and the land developer, we specifically chose to to, we requested to put this driveway where it is to be in relation to the the hooded left that's there. I can get back to that. Yeah. There the so there's a hooded left just to the west of Redwood Lane to access that that neighborhood that's to the north. And we didn't want traffic conflicts with, with that and people trying to cut across Windhaven to use that, that turn lane to go west, we would rather them go to the driveway to the west of them and use the full median opening. So that's why we chose to put the the driveway where it's at to minimize people trying to cut across and and use that. So I agree that people could use that slip lane as, as a cut around. In our in what we see in terms of safety around the city. That is not a significant source of of wrecks at other driveways. It's it's more often when people are are moving at at speed and trying to to turn into a driveway. And they, they either don't get fully into the right turn lane, there's not a right turn lane, or they don't use their blinker and that you get the rear ends. It's not often that when traffic is moving slowly and in these, these high traffic times and people are trying to get around and just cut in front of somebody, people are driving slow enough that those those accidents don't occur as often. Yeah, I mean, I frankly, I drive up Custer and I watch people cut through the parking lots to get around 2 or 3 cars. And so that's my concern. So my second concern is the exit 52ft from Wolf Lane. If somebody's exiting there. And happens to want to go west on Windhaven, they're going to cross over three lanes. What's the distance there to get to that? Can they make a U-turn there? We have signed that as no U-turn. So if they did that, it would be in violation of our city ordinances and PD could could stop them and pull them over and give them a ticket. So I'm looking at it right now and there is no no U-turn sign there. I agree with you on Google Maps. Yes, I misspoke, we are we have in speaking with the neighborhoods. Once this goes into effect, we have work orders in place to put a no U-turn sign here and a no U-turn sign at the at the additional or at the next meeting opening to the West to try and minimize that. In talking with some of the HOA that was there, one of their concerns is people trying to make that movement. And so we we preemptively have that have that planned to to go ahead. We're not going to do that until that goes to construction. Sure. I appreciate that. Yeah. I mean that's to me that is that's all I have for right now. But thank you very much, Chad, for your input and for your work on this project. Commissioner Alley. Just one from a traffic perspective. So right now, when Haven has a traffic problem, we have 15 families units. What have you proposed here? How much more volume or additional traffic congestion do we think this would cause. So if we have 100 cars bumper to bumper, I'm making stuff up. Does this add two more cars? Five more cars, 20 more cars. So? So residential units are the lowest trip generation. Type of of land use. So in general it's about 0.6 trips per unit in, in the peak hour. So they're ten ish. Yeah. If that we calculated I think eight in the peak hour in the the worse of the two peak hours. So this is not going to add hardly anything to what's already out there. To Commissioner Bronsky concern about using the slip road to, for some reason, like get get in front of a couple of cars. Is there anything we can do at those entries into the slip road that, for lack of a better word, dissuades? You know, I don't know, put a speed bump going in or something. So we we could request them to put speed bumps along that, that slip lane that that could dissuade traffic from, from using that as a, as a bypass that also we'd also have to talk with the fire department because our traditional Speed Bump program now uses the rubber speed bumps for these, these wider sections that allow the fire truck to go past without without having to slow down. And with this smaller section, I don't think we have a traditional layout for for the speed bumps on this smaller section. So I think we would have to go in with with something that wouldn't quite comply with the the traditional fire rated speed bumps. So we would have to run that by them. A non-traffic question, this might be coming off of the Congress's recent session. SB, I don't know what the number is. Is there any is it 15? Yeah. Is there any impact from legislature that almost ties our hands in any way in this? No, this is not qualified for SP 15 because it's under five acres okay. Under five acres. Thank you. Commissioner Lingenfelter. Thank you. I actually was I was trying to determine if it was under SB 15 as well. That was gonna be one of my questions. But from a traffic standpoint, I think you've you've addressed a lot of what Commissioner Bronsky had alluded to some of my concerns. I know the speed bump thing probably isn't an issue because it's not actually going to be a fire lane because they're going to be accessing from Windhaven. Sounds like anyway. So if fire trucks not going to be using that. Just to what I've deducted from what we've already had talked about. However, what happens and this may be just a scenario, what happens if somebody comes in the out that's next to. Red Wolf, and how does that get how do people get out of that oops for say, because now they and there's people coming at them and they've got to now back up into Windhaven to get out of the way. So we have we I, I believe the slip road off of Windhaven is was going to be two way and just the alley was one way. Is that correct Molly. No it is a one way. It's one way, the whole thing. Okay. So then we would require them to sign. We would I think the best design and this can be worked out at preliminary site plan and site plan phases. The best design would be to channelize that to to force it to be an out and use a more 45 degree type driveway, or maybe not quite 45 degree, because that would encourage people to kind of come out at speed, but something that discourages people from going in that route is going to be too hard for them to make that that turn. Okay. Yes. All right. That was a suggestion. I was I was concerned about that because I can see somebody just unknowingly turning there. And then they're stuck. And now they're pulling backing up into a windhaven. Another, I had the SB 15 question that's been cleared up. Another question now, it's not traffic related. This is for the city. Do we want to wait for or can I know if you've got other questions for staff okay. Yeah. For staff really what what other options. What other things have been talked about with with the developer as far as screening goes? Because it sounds like there's been a lot of back and forth and a lot of. Unwillingness to fully screen things the way maybe the residents might, might be acceptable to. And I'm just trying to see what all we, we talked about. I mean, they brought up a 12 foot fence kind of kind of not not kind of a. Attack on the resident thing kind of kind of thing. I didn't I didn't take note to that very well. But as far as screening, it sounds like that's going to be a big deal. Having having a nice fence, having a good tree line, having it make it so that you don't have such visibility for say noise trash all kinds of stuff. What all has been explored there? So in talks with the city and the developer, screening between residential uses is typically not required. In our pre-application meeting, we discussed that there is a good inventory of mature trees on site, and so preserving as many trees as possible along the southern and south eastern property line would be preferred for their design, as well as to be an appropriate buffer some of throughout the zoning case and the zoning process. Some of the surrounding neighbors brought up a desire to have a 10 or 12 foot high screening wall. However, our ordinances only allow a maximum height of eight feet, so that was not an option that we could present to the applicant based on the rerouting of the alley. We do not require screening when the rear of residences are not backed up to the alley, so for rerouting it to the slip road along Red Wolf Lane. So it's parallel, we do not require a screening wall between the alley and Red Wolf Lane. However, with the associated private Street subdivision Sup, we are requiring that a six foot minimum height landscape landscape screening wall be maintained between that alley and Red Wolf Lane to allow for additional screening and to help preserve the existing inventory. And ■it's a masonry screening wall. No, no, no, it's a landscape screening a landscape. Yes. We do not require masonry screening wall. When the rear of residences is not backed up between an alley. So but the existing landscaping in that along the eastern and southern property line is pretty ample. So the goal is to irrigate it. And if I could add miss original designs had this as a public alleyway, and staff's comments were actually to pull the alley closer to the south to avoid creating kind of an orphan lot between the alley and homes to the south. And the applicant was concerned about removing those trees. And so the solution was then to make it a private street, so they can maintain that all in one lot and preserve those existing trees. Okay. And then that, that drive to the west. That's totally cut off. Or are they there still a drive concrete going to be maintained there and they're just fencing it off or something? Pardon me, Commissioner Lingenfelter, you're talking about the connection between the subject property and the Western property. That will one of the stipulations for approval is that it be gated. However, the applicant has indicated that that will that point will be used for maintenance, trash pickup, concierge service between the existing property management and the subject property. Okay, because I was trying to figure out the point to even leaving that access point. So that's what I was. Yeah. So it'll be used for maintenance services. Okay. But that maintenance truck would then have to loop all the way around to get to the recycle bins. If it were, if, if, if if they were, if there wasn't that connection point then yes they would have to I mean they're going to go they're going to go against traffic flow. If they go, if they turn right from there. They're going to make the clockwise loop. The arrows, the arrows are going left. So but the alley with the alley, the alley isn't. The alley will tend to be one way based on the natural flow of traffic for cars, but I believe golf carts are typically the maintenance vehicles used. So I think just a golf cart kind of going using the gate, going in, picking up trash and then making their way back through the gate probably won't be too much of a disturbance. I was picturing like the dump truck that comes to our house and picks up the the brown bin kind of thing. I think golf carts have been what has been communicated. Yes, that was it. Okay. Commissioner Bronsky, you have a follow up question. I do. She mentioned the the entrance to the west, the gated entrance. Is that required to be to stay locked other than whenever it's being used by maintenance? The requirement is that the connection point be gated. That is what the stipulation says. So my question is we we require dumpster doors on all of our dumpsters in the city. Sorry, sorry. And Commissioner Bronsky, we these will not be serviced by a dumpster. These will be serviced by CART service. No, I understand my question is we require doors on dumpsters and we don't require them to be closed. So if you drive through the city, you will find a lot of dumpsters that have doors sitting wide open. So my concern is, is this just required to have a gate, or is it actually required to use the gate so that the gate stays locked other than when their maintenance is using it? The requirement is that it be gated. That's it. The implication is that it will remain gated unless needed. But if we need more specificity in the language, you're welcome to add those to the specific use permit stipulations. Okay. Could I just ask the someone from the Billingsley if that's something they would consider? Yeah. If they can keep their answer real short. I appreciate your desire to make sure that that doesn't have cut through, but I just want to for clarity's sake. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Ma'am. That was real short. Thank you. Other questions? No, that's all we. All right, so save my turn till last. So couple of questions for staff just to make sure that it's really crystal clear I think because this is shown as neighborhood in the master plan, the comprehensive plan, a lot of people maybe assumed it was going to be single family, but. And so it is single family attached. I want to make sure that that that I'm making sure this is crystal clear for everybody involved. The massing, the height of the buildings, the the windows, all those things are not the requirements are no different than what it would be if somebody was building a single family residence on the same parcel, correct? That is correct. Okay. So the screening, the traffic, the noise, the trash, all of those same requirements would apply as whether it's single family, detached or single family attached. That is correct. Okay. So if, for example, somebody decided they wanted to build single family residences on here and they wanted to put an alley in the exact same place, and they wanted to have their garages open to the exact same location, and they wanted to have their building be two stories tall, with windows on the back as a detached product. That would be allowed as well if the zoning were approved. Yes. If it was zoned as single family detached. Okay. So for the purposes of the residents, I just want to make sure that we're clear. I understand there's a lot of concern about the three story multifamily down around the corner, but the as far as neighbors are concerned, if it was a single family residence, you would have the exact same potential questions about garages, about alleys, about windows as you have today. And so we we obviously have to look at that as a city about what's the best land use. But we also are listening or hearing what you're saying. But I want to make sure that you all understand that if, if, if we looked at a different case, I'm not sure it would answer those questions any differently than the answers you're hearing tonight. So I'll I'll be happy to talk to you all after the meeting. So so I just want to make sure that that that's the way I'm looking at it. And I think that's I wanted to make sure we were clear about, about the, the boundaries of what we're considering. So with that said. I have I do have a traffic question. One last traffic question. The current Loop Road alley is ten foot, 12 foot. The actual pavement is ten foot. However, the actual alley right of the the typical right of way width is 15ft, with ten of that being pavement. So it is meeting the alley requirements for the per the street design standards. Okay, but turning radius and everything we're okay with one day. If there had to be a trash truck that went through here that we have adequate pavement with and turning radiuses et-cetera for trash service should it ever be needed in the future. Our engineering, our development engineers would look at that and I believe they have reviewed that. I know you'll get to a detailed engineering plan. Ultimately, we'll look at all of that. Yes. Okay. That was that was just my concern. I know you'll look at that as part of our deal. It has to pass engineering review, but just wanted to get on the record. That was one of my concerns about making sure we didn't have trash trucks running off in the dirt one day, should that ever happen. No, we don't want that. Okay. All right. I think those were all of my questions. Commission. Any other questions for staff or any other comments at this time? Anybody prepared to make a motion? Commissioner Brounoff, I just want to make a comment. I am the factors to me that are most important in looking at this case are. This proposal is completely consistent with the comprehensive plan. It is completely consistent with the future land use map. The developer has apparently gone out of his way to compromise to the extent that he reasonably can with the neighbors, to try to allay some of their concerns. I was impressed that with Miss Martinez's attitude, recognizing the the good faith that the developer has shown in trying to satisfy the concerns from the neighbors. The concerns that were raised, I think, have been adequately addressed from the standpoint of traffic. 15 units are not going to generate a significant amount of additional traffic. There just aren't enough cars there. From the standpoint of buffering. The developer has gone out of his way to provide to voluntarily restrict the height to 25ft with a flat roof instead of a pitched roof. He has gone out of his way to provide detached garages, which will protect line of sight to a certain degree. Between the second story of the main building and the houses to the south, he's providing a 15 foot separation between the southern boundary of the driveway and the southern property line, ten feet of which will be a landscape screen. Mention was made of little a minute or two ago about preserving as much of the existing vegetation in that strip as possible. When I drove down there yesterday, I noticed that I could not see through that existing landscape. It is already an existing landscape screen and it is impermeable to sight. The developer has eliminated any connection with Red Wolf Lane. In driving by the property. I went ahead to the next door two units and I looked them over and I even drove around the backside of them. I noticed that the front and the back, the first of all the buildings are very handsome. They are a brown masonry brick, similar to what the same developer put in the Beacon Square development on Coit Road, which is quite handsome and has told us that they're proposing a similar design and treatment for this project. The landscaping was pristine. We've just been through August and the landscaping was green. It was not brown, it wasn't dead. It was well trimmed and watered both in front and in back. I did not see a single piece of trash in sight anywhere. I didn't hear any noise anywhere. I didn't see any broken down cars, broken down washing machines refrigerators chairs or anything in the out in public. I saw one car leave the development and one motorcycle leave the development while I was there, but it was basically an attractive project to look at and to drive through. I also drove through Timber Timber Wolf Trail, and I found the homes there to be exceedingly attractive and desirable. Notwithstanding that they back up on the western side to the three story apartment complex in the colony. I also drove through the neighborhood on the eastern side of Red Wolf Lane, and although the houses are smaller, they are still very attractive and very desirable neighborhood to live in. Notwithstanding that there is an mf3 apartment, multi-family complex, catty corner across the intersection of Midway Road and Windhaven Parkway, I have not seen any visible evidence of negative impacts from multifamily or single family attached affecting this neighborhood. I think the the applicant has proposed to do everything he possibly can to try to make this a compatible development. As the staff has pointed out, this development will provide a transition from the multifamily over in the colony to the single family to the east. And from a planning standpoint, I think that's a good thing. I think this, considering it's a small plot of land and they've proposed a viable use for it, I think it's a good thing. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Commissioner Olli. I'll echo a lot of what Commissioner Brunner just said. The three things I wanted to hear that we are concerned where? Traffic mitigation. Enough of a buffer screening from a privacy perspective to the neighborhood behind us. And also just general care and concern for the area. Also hold an intention. The fact that the already developed. I forget the buildings to the side on the colony. You know that's not Plano, right? Perhaps if that patch of land was ours, we would have forced a similar 25 foot, you know, to respect the integrity of that neighborhood corner. But that is the colony. The price point that will be brought into this area, especially given the price point of the existing housing stock around it, will, in my view, will force the behavior. Let me interrupt you a little bit. We're really shouldn't be talking about price point. That's fair. All that to say from a comprehensive plan perspective, diversification of housing stock coming into the area is something that we have tried to drive, has Recrafted the comprehensive plan and the guiding principles and designating this a neighborhood corner. And at the end of the day, if I can't think of a. Better use, would you want single family detached? Yeah, if you could get it. But again, that will bring, like you adroitly pointed out, a similar traffic, if any. You know, extra garbage cans and what have you that would be needed to. By those, by those residents. So I am in favor of approval of this. I could make a motion if you're ready or leave open for more comments. I don't see any other comments, so hang on, we just had one. So hang on just a second. So, Commissioner Lolly, yes, I just did a quick calculation. Rough calculation, let's say. And you liken the the rate you like the it's about you like 15 like 8500 square foot per unit now which is you know, like we have a single family. Six. Right. Sf6 around the, the area. So it's going to be the same similar density of the neighboring. It's not going to be I know that it's going to be different from the SF 20 to the south, but like it's similar to the density of the surrounding properties as well. So it's not going to be different. I know that the residents are. They have a lot of concerns, but you know, like if they look at it, it's not going to add a lot of density to this area. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Commissioner Ali, back to you. There you go. There you go. There we go I move, we approve. Agenda item number one, a zoning case 2025 006, as recommended by staff. Mr. Bronsky, can I just ask if we have some sort of added language as it relates to the the gate? As Miss Billingsley agreed. I think that would be more with one B if we. Yeah, that'd be that'd be on one zoning case. Okay. So if if you're are you prepared to second that or you want to this will be with this specific use permit. The gated stipulation is for 1A1A subdivision. All right. So give me the language. You have a that's Mr. Bronsky, would you like to suggest language to be added to the motion? I, I don't know the exact language that we, I just want to make sure that. We don't have a problem with the gate being there, but the residents ultimately having a cut, having somebody cut through that because the gates open. I'm not sure the language. Can I suggest, Commissioner Alley, that you modify your motion to say that this should be amended to include controlled access gate? I will gladly do that. I move that we approve agenda item number one A, with the stipulation of a controlled access gate to the west of the property. So I am prepared. I am prepared to make a second with just the comment that I do have some concerns as it relates to the traffic and the things I've mentioned, and I. I hope the city engineer traffic engineering stays on top of this, including the U-turn. And if we do look at some way of discouraging people, cutting across that with some sort of. Bumpers on the ground or something, I forgot what it's called, but so I do. I second the motion, as I think some of those comments would be related to one B, but duly noted. Yes. Thank you. I just want to clarify that so that we're clear on the motion, because staff's recommendation is A22 parter. We have the recommendation on the zoning change, which was approval as submitted, and then approval of the specific use permit for the private subdivision, which included three stipulations of which you're requesting to add the controlled access gate. Yes. For the soup portion of that. Correct. Yeah, I think that was the intent. Is that correct from the person who made the motion. Okay. And the second and the second, and we will leave it up to the staff, I presume, to define how to do the controlled access. Okay. So we have a motion and a second. Any other comments by commissioners seeing none, Commissioner Lingenfelter. I know it's probably not. It's probably something we can't do, but I am concerned about still, I know that the trees are very screened at the moment, but then it does look quite, quite, quite a bit will be coming down and there will be holes throughout the the site that's common to the single family. I personally would like to see better screening there that that's between the alley and the trash bins and the residents. I would have liked to have seen a little more screening there, but I was just my I just a comment. I think it would have been proper for the existing residents to at least do something there. Okay, Commissioner Bronsky, as I as I look at the property line to the south there, I don't notice any of those trees coming out, at least according to the map that I'm looking at on one B. So it would seem like they made a conscious effort, even on the areas that kind of divot in, to maintain all of the well, I guess possibly eight, eight, five and. But I mean, it appears like they made a real conscious effort to maintain as many trees as they could. Sorry. I'm sorry. Hang on. Your mic's off. Let me turn you back on here. There you go. I agree they kept a lot of them. I just, I think it would have been a good effort, I guess, to, just to screen out a little better. So. Okay. Any other comments prior to the vote. All right. We have a motion in a second. Everybody please vote. Motion passes 5 to 1 right. Item one B. Which would be the concept plan for this same case. Commissioner alley I move we approve agenda item number one B subject to approval. City Council approval of zoning case 2025 006. With our stated stipulations and approval of any variances to the International Fire Code by Plano Fire Rescue prior to site plan approval. Thank you. Mr. Bruno. I second the motion. All right. We have a motion and a second. Any comments regarding item one B before we vote? Anybody okay. Please vote. Motion passes 5 to 1. All right. Thank you to everybody who came out tonight. We do appreciate your input and your time with us this evening. Item two. Agenda item number two, a presentation and discussion on the City of Plano Housing Study. The applicant is the City of Plano. Good evening, commissioners, I'm Drew Brawner, comprehensive planning manager for the city of Plano. The purpose of this item is to introduce the recently completed housing study prepared by the Neighborhood Services Department. I'll provide a brief background of how the study relates to the comp plan and the work that the Commission does. And then we have Jeanette Eaton from the Neighborhood Services Department to speak on the details of the housing study. The 2025 Housing Study provides an updated assessment of Plano's current housing needs and gaps, and replaces the 2018 Housing Trends Analysis. The updated study will now be referenced to support the Commission's role in reviewing residential zoning cases for conformance to the Comprehensive Plan. The Housing Study directly supports the city's planning objectives and aligns with comprehensive plans, housing policies and actions. The study provides data and major findings that help inform adjustments to city programs and strategies, and will serve as a key reference for future zoning and policy implementation. In addition, the city's annual market study will supplement this work by providing updated data to track housing demand trends over time. Several comprehensive plan policies and actions are related to the objectives of this analysis, including the Neighborhood Conservation Policy, which focuses on conserving and enhancing plano's established neighborhoods through programs and regulations that support neighborhood identity and overall livability. Neighborhood Conservation Action NC four provides guidance for implementing housing study strategies to address identified housing gaps in coordination with comprehensive plan policies, and as part of the 2025 Comprehensive Plan Maintenance Review. The Commission approved an update to action in C four to formally incorporate the new Housing study as a guiding document for ongoing housing policy implementation, and also the Special Housing Needs Policy emphasizes support for housing options that meet the needs of seniors, people with disabilities, and low to moderate income households. Finally, the Housing Study provides important context for the Commission's review of residential zoning cases when evaluating conformance to the Comprehensive Plan, the Commission considers both the future Land Use Map and dashboards, which guide the appropriate mix of land uses, housing types, and the desired character of development, such as height, density, and form, and also the city's housing policies and data, including the updated Housing Study, which helped determine whether a proposed zoning change addresses an identified housing gap or need. And so with that, I'll turn it over to Shanette Eaton with the Neighborhood Services Department to provide more details on the housing study. Well, hello. How are y'all doing? So I'm Shanette Eden. I am the city's housing and community services manager. It's really nice to see all of you all. Tonight. I'm going to try to not hold you too long and leave you some time to answer questions. So the city began this study back in June of 2023. I'll get to I'll get to a slide that shows it. But the purpose is, as drew just stated, we hadn't done a housing study since 2018. We typically do one about every five years. It was time. And so you all will see. I'm not going to sit here and read all the slides. I know you had 100 plus page report to review. I'm going to try to hit on these highlights today and be here to answer all your questions. But it was time for us to hire a new consultant to analyze where we're at as far as housing here in Plano, and just look at maybe some suggestions or recommendations regarding what we should do going forward, or what we could think about, as well as in relationship to our existing comprehensive plan, which is what drew mentioned. We always want to make sure we're in tune with our sister department, as well as how development grows throughout the city. So I started down this map that you can see June of 2023. We started it took us a while. A lot of things happened during this process, but our consultants spoke to a lot of people, our city council, a lot of developers that the city has worked with before. They met with key staff, they met with department heads from a lot of different departments that you all are used to hearing from. Then they analyze the data. You can see the rest of the the rest of the chart here. And then we went to council in July. So July of 2023. Yes. Two years after this started, we finally went to council with it on. And that was in July. These major developments thanks Mike to Nick who updated it because this needed to be updated. You all have have you all know about these developments that are coming here? They've come before you already? I'm not going to go through this lengthy list, but everything that's up here and this next page you all have seen. So let's get to the meat of the study first. And the study also first looked at exactly what we have here in Plano with regards to what we're calling affordable. And when we talk about affordable here in this realm we're speaking on this slide is something that's very specific. We're talking about what would the state of Texas consider affordable from a US Department of Housing and Urban Development stance? When you look at these, you're going to say that those are all apartments. And I'm going to say I know that they are, because the state looks at our housing tax credit properties as affordable, because those are the properties that the city and the state, in essence, because they're the ones that make sure that those properties are actually meet the regulations that they fit. So all of those apartments fit within it. And housing tax credits are for multifamily. We don't have as many as some other sister cities, but these are the ones, the majority of ours that say elderly in general. They are for anyone that is 60% or below of the area median income. The housing tax credit process, which is something that I'm not here to talk to you all about. So as I look at Mike, I want him to give me the eye to keep going and not stay too far in this. But the idea here is that the federal government has House tax credit incentives for private development of housing, multifamily specifically for that age percentage. Other than that, we have some public facility apartment complexes that are up here that are listed. So let's move on from apartments. Right. Let's go into existing programs. So I'm just trying to lay the groundwork. The city of Plano and all these programs are run out of the neighborhood Services department. We have a number of programs that we use, federal as well as city funded monies to ensure that our homeowners can stay in their place, right? They can age in place, but not only that, so that we can help those that need homes and some other programs that I'm not going to mention. I will quickly highlight grade update rebate because that is something that's highly used here. If you all do not know about the program, check it out on our site. Thank you, Vice Chair, for shaking your head up and down. I'm glad. Glad that you know about it. That program incentivizes our existing homeowners to improve their homes flat out. We give a 5000 rebate on the back end. We're not checking income. It's city money. I'm going to move on. Okay, so when we get to housing affordability, it's important for me to state this, especially because a lot of times I wear my US Department of Housing and Urban Development hat. That's not the hat I'm wearing right now. The hat I'm wearing is just general housing manager. And as the general housing manager for the city, when I'm up here talking about housing affordability, everybody has an affordability index. I don't care what your income is. You know how much you can afford based on what you are making, what the study showed in there and what I'm here to kind of highlight. And mind you, these are 20, 23 numbers. They are consistent still today a little bit higher in range. But what's important when you're looking at it is someone 120% of the area median income. So that's a household back in 2023 that made $105,241, could afford a house about 305,000. So if you say that okay, so what? That was 2023. Let me give you a snippet and hope that my math was right. Okay. So if we were looking at it right now, 120% of the area median income would be about $140,000. One 4760 somewhere around there, the house that they could afford today would be 497 620 I want you all to remember that as I keep moving forward. Okay. So now we're going to look at the rental market because we do have rental properties here. When houses, when people don't have enough housing or housing that they can actually afford to buy, their only their only thing left to do is to actually rent. So when you're looking at this. The rent market, the orange obviously it says here what's in Plano. But I want you to pay attention to the levels by worker. And we're going to go into when you're looking at the what is it, the affordable rent for worker in the health care and social assistance industry. Those that area right there when we're looking at that's kind of a mid-range on how much they're going to make, the average amount, they're going to make a year, they're having a hard time paying for their rent. When you say that, we see in the report goes into it in more detail. I will give you a broad swath. A lot of our workforce housing. When I say workforce, I mean our teachers, I mean our our social workers, I mean our police, our fire, our city employees, our you name it, you keep I can keep going on in that mid range are spending more than 30% of their income to live here. And why am I talking about that? Because when I put back on my HUD hat, the HUD says that if you're spending more than 30% of your income to live somewhere, you are house burdened, okay, your cost burden. Let's keep it moving. Okay, so let's look at the for sale properties. And mind you, this is a little bit more recent. With the 2023. It's actually a little higher. Now when you look at the housing that's available and existing, not necessarily the new builds either. And you all hear a lot about new development that comes before you. It's important to remember, you know, I just gave you an updated number about that. 4.97 what what a household that makes 120% of the area median income could buy. They couldn't afford to buy a house here in Plano with the with the median sales price being 530 $530,905 here in Plano back in 2023. That hasn't gotten any better. Now you can see everything else median sales, prices of the new units over the last decade is 33% greater than the existing units, so the price of housing continues to go up. Okay. So let's look at Housing Gap, the city midway through our consultant in the process of doing the housing study, asked them to come back and do a jobs housing analysis. What we asked the consultant to do, we said, hey, housing is a regional problem, so let's look at what's going on in the region as far as we can, at least from who's going to share the data. Let's look and see what kind of jobs are being brought to them and what kind of housing gaps are going to exist. So they looked at it. And when you're looking at this, the demand flat out is exceeding the supply. Right. There are more people in need of housing across all income ranges. So not low income, not high, but across all income ranges that are in need of housing and housing demand. The only way that can get better is for supply to increase. Okay. So let's talk about key findings so that you all can get to asking your questions okay. So the first thing is widespread housing cost burden, which I believe that I mentioned that already. Our consultant looked at the projected jobs that are coming here to Plano over the next few years, and over 40% of those jobs are projected to have incomes that are around $80,000 a year. Guess what that means? They can't buy that house that I was just talking about. That means that they are going to be they're going to be cost burdened. If they're going to buy it, they're going to be giving up something extra meaning, but for an emergency expense or something like that, they're probably not going to be able to stay there. And now, Mike, I have to remember that I'm talking to planning and zoning and not the Community Relations Commission. Let's keep moving. The mismatch the report talks about there's a mismatch in housing and workforce. I've kind of mentioned that already. And then the limited affordable housing for larger homes. Right. So this means this means that we don't have enough housing be there for rent or for sale. That is in a range of affordable to a lot of our residents that need a three bedroom home or residents that want to move in. That could be a new family that wants to come and be home and have their kids come to Pisd. There's not housing for those aging population. The next one is the aging population is constraining supply. Now, when my parents saw this, they kind of had an issue with that. There's 75, 76, moved to Plano in 1982, and they've been living in their house. But the but the reality is, is they are aging in place. And it's a beautiful thing that we have programs for our homeowners to age in place. However, if they could find another place to move that is affordable to their income now, if they moved, then you could have a maybe a younger family come in and help the schools and go ahead and build up our neighborhoods again. Let's keep moving on from there. Next, the housing study shows this. The market isn't going to fix it. The job housing analysis that they did for us literally said, hey, Plano, your jobs that you're bringing here, if you don't build more housing and it's a diversified type of housing. So I'm talking about your single family homes, that maybe that patio home, the ones that maybe SF six. Thank you, Mike, for teaching me what that was. And the square footage, those smaller homes, not just big homes, but a range of still owner. It could still be owner occupied housing if that. The market isn't going to fix it if we don't have it here next. Obviously I've mentioned this. The regional housing development just isn't keeping pace. That's on one of the other slides from the data that was provided by other cities. And you know, we know this. And so the idea is that we will try to do something about it. Right. So next steps I put this on here. I always have to mention housing tax credits because that's something that has been put on hold since 2022. Our city actually had a housing consultant, a housing tax credit consultant to look at what exactly should the city be doing regarding housing tax credits? We're going to bring back that back to council next week. On Monday. We work with planning a lot. That's our sister department. We work with them a lot just on significant land use, land use policies that they're bringing before you. They consult us and we thank you all for that. Thank you drew. And other than that, we're just going to continue to use the information in the study to hopefully guide us development and choices that the city makes. I am here to answer any questions, and I just thank you for having me. Commission questions. Commissioner Olli, thank you for your work. Your passion is evident and it's always heartening to see folks who work for the city that it's not just a job, it's actually something you are passionate about. Can you go back a couple of slides, the one that had the bars that showed the different metro areas? I just want to make sure I'm reading that correctly. So is this right reading. That outside of Allen, Garland, Mesquite and Prosper, everybody else around us and the colony, everybody else around us is in a housing deficit. That is true. And when you look at Allen and the colony, our consultants unable to get their data, so they literally had to use just Aces data and kind of project forward. But yes, that is exactly what this this is saying. Gotcha. So even if we not if with the jobs that we're bringing into Plano, our neighboring cities cannot even take it doesn't sound like they can take the overflow. They can't assume the overflow. That's exactly it. That's what our consultant. You have me tonight, but our consultant was here in July. That is exactly what the consultant told our city council. Gotcha. Other question. Back to definitions. Affordable housing. Is it pegged to a national definition of income threshold? Is it pegged to the surrounding area? What how do I gauge. So what HUD says is anybody, regardless of your income, should not be spending more than 30% of your income on housing. What that means is that there isn't. It means that regardless of whether you're on the low end of the totem pole or the high, it is an affordability concern. They have that definition. So it's a federal definition. U.S. Census Bureau uses it as well. So that means they were trying to find a definition that's been around for a long time that regardless of where you fall on that income range, it doesn't matter. So I'll give you an example. A family of four in Plano making $93,850 a month. A family of four is considered low income. I just want y'all to sit. Let that sit. A lot of our families are making that and qualify for some of our federal housing rehab programs because of that, but the definition they're using is to where it can be applied to anywhere it can the person making $1 million a year, if they're spending more than 30% of their income on their housing, HUD's going to say you are cost burdened. Understood. But I'm looking at the the list that had mostly multifamily and what have you that was classified affordable. My guess, correct me if I'm wrong, is that that takes either some kind of median or average of incomes around the surrounding area and determines. If the rent for those structures is less than 30%. Ipso facto de affordable.. Okay, so with these, with the list that's here, using affordability based on HUD. So 60% what HUD says today 100% of the area median income today in 2025. If you looked at HUD they say for Collin County because they don't just look at Plano. They're including us in Collin County. It's $117,000. Gotcha. So they're saying for these in order to live in one of those that say elderly or general you, your income has to be 60% of that in order to be considered to live in. You see how they have total units and then affordable units. Gotcha. That's what your income has to meet. Who monitors that and who establishes the rents. The state does the state of Texas, the Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs, they're the ones that monitor it. Even when you're looking at those those public facility corporations, the same thing for those 51% of the units in those folks have to be for people at 80% or below. So that's more of like that family that I told you. That's a family of four making that $93,850. But either way it goes, when you're looking at those, that is something that the state does. The city. I don't I'm not even going to spend a whole lot of time on that. The state regulates it. It is a state law and we abide. Well, it's it's an it's a known thorny issue where. And the frustrating thing is it feels like there's very little levers to pull to maintain that balance of affordability that keeps our firefighters, our police officers, our teachers. As part of the community that they they serve very well. I don't have any answers to the case. So I'll be very, very looking forward to anything, study, whatever the case may be. But past studies, something that we can actually go pull a lever on and perhaps drive even a little bit of a solution. So so you all hear a lot of housing cases as I look at Mike to see if he's going to give me a that's enough talking. But you all have a lot of housing cases and I just, if I may, with my housing and community services manager hat on say when you have a consultant that tells you that the city needs a diversity in housing typologies, I just am encouraged that you all are going to continue to listen to that, as well as knowing that it would be in alliance with the comprehensive plan. Agreed. Any other questions? Okay, Commissioner Bruno, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, congratulations on the study. And for, I think, presenting the problem to us in very detailed and stark terms. I guess this begins with understanding the problem and then we have to go from there. I was wondering if any effort has been you know, we tend to sort of think in convenient and traditional thought patterns without necessarily thinking that it's time to think outside the box, you know? So when it comes to developing housing, we tend to think of the traditional single family detached house on a 6 or 7000 foot lot, or an apartment complex containing at least two digits worth of units, or three digits worth of units, you know, with the swimming pool in the middle and all that, you know, that goes with it. And I'm wondering if any thought has been given to correlating affordability with some of the other housing types that are out there that we just don't see very often, such as duplexes triplexes fourplexes manor houses, stacked flats, single family attached townhomes, and even single family detached patio homes. I know there is a development of patio homes, sort of southwest from the intersection of Alma Drive and Plano Parkway, for example, of a a starter type patio home, which would. It's smaller. It might appeal to young couples starting out. I don't know how affordable they are or aren't, but they would be, I think, more affordable than the typical four bedroom, two and a half bath brick home on the 7000 foot lot. Okay, so has any effort been made to correlating or investigating affordability in terms of these alternate housing types? I know that we work with planning a lot, so I would be remiss in saying that they don't think about this. The planning director was my predecessor in this job, which is great. I think staff planning and neighborhood services staff and other departments, we do look at that. I think ultimately we work together. They're familiar with it, we're familiar with it. And then we go through the regular process as far as development that comes through to you all and the comprehensive plan. I don't know if that really answered your question, but I do want you to know those suggestions that you made. They're not new to staff. It's just those things haven't come through yet. Is that a fair assessment? Yes. I think we're working with the assumption that that is true without even having done the correlation. And we have over the years, taken many steps in the zoning to create the tools to allow that to happen. I think the challenge has been that the market, the developers who do not typically get out of their comfort zone of what they're used to building. And so we haven't seen a lot of really experimental creative opportunities to use the tools that we've put in place just yet. Yeah. Well, first of all, I want to thank you for bringing those housing types to our attention, which you did like a couple of years ago. And it just stuck in my mind. And I thought, oh, that's why they told us about it way back then. Do you think there's a possibility that a solution to, for the affordable housing shortage might lie on a regional basis, rather than within each individual city? Plano, Allen McKinney, Frisco, The colony, I think the other chart, Carrollton, is kind of what shows us what's going on. You know, if every city would kind of. Build to what they know is coming and possibly incentivize as needed, I think it would be helpful. The further north people go there, they're just trading transportation costs for housing costs, and it still won't fix the real issue. And that's that literally is why midway through this study, our consultant was directed to do a jobs housing analysis to see if maybe the region, you know, Plano is I mean, we're we're pretty much built out, you know, maybe there's other places in the region that could take care of this. The problem is, is it's happening everywhere. So it's just bleeding over. Yeah. I just add the comment that the traveling costs. Assume that the jobs are not located where they live. Plano has the luxury of being a net importer of workers, according to the housing study pointed out that twice as many people commute to Plano to work rather than commute out of Plano to work. Right? Yeah. You're right. Thank you. Yeah. Commissioner Bronsky, so I have some nerdy questions, but I want to start out by saying thank you for the presentation, and thank you for all the work that you've put into this. So my first question is, when I look at do you think Plano is a special place to live? Well, my parents moved here in 1982. I'm one of five. My kids go here. I live down the alley from them. It is more than special to me, sir. So you would say that? Well, I agree with you. I've lived in Plano for almost 30 years, and I do think there's something special about it. And I have a hesitation to say that build to what's coming. Do you do you suggest that we build to every last person who wants to live in Plano? Can live here? No, now, that's not what I'm saying. I am suggesting that you already have people here. And I used a personal example, which I don't always do, that. If we were in front of council, I probably wouldn't do that. But I use my parents as a personal example because they are the example of what's growing. Our community has a lot of 55 and plus staying here, and that is wonderful. And that's a beautiful thing. In their two story houses that now they're living on their fixed incomes. And so they're using great update rebate or coming through our housing rehab program just to stay there. And when you say to my parents, I'm going to use that example, hey Mom and Dad, y'all should downsize. My parents haven't paid a mortgage in forever. We live by Hendrick Middle School, right? And so they're like, well, can we can we buy something that's affordable? Where is that? Well, there isn't that. And so that's what we're getting into. The types of housing that we have. So I'm not saying build for build to come for what's to come. I'm saying let's look at diversified housing types regarding who's here. Sometimes you all hear people talking about schools closing and they come to the city. But if there's no place for a family with young kids to come like my parents did right then they might be in a house that could be for that younger family. But they say, well, where can we live? Right? And so that's why I say it's a housing concern for the whole and the report, not me. The report says it across all incomes. If we don't have enough high income housing. Right. And the report mentions this, this is the layman's version. We don't have enough high income housing for that 150% of the area median income to buy. They're going to buy the housing that is for the 100%. Those people are going to buy the housing that could be affordable to the 80% who want to buy, and they don't want to rent anymore. Everybody's taking somebody else's housing. So it's just I'm going to end it like that. But I do agree we are a special place. I'm not saying build to come. I'm saying it's here. No, and I agree. So you use the $93,800. My family is about 70. We make about 70% of that. My wife and I total okay. Yeah. But I did want to go back a couple slides to I think slide 50. I think it's two slides back. Oh no you said 50 I'm sorry. Keep going back. It was a couple. It was the one that talked about the average incomes that are coming to the area. It was $80,000. You showed on the screen. Hold on. Maybe it's forward. This was it this one? No, it was the you talked about the average incomes for the family or for the occupations that are coming moving to Plano. That was looking to I think that was my rent. I might have been telling you that. Did I actually have a slide for it? There was a slide that said $80,000. I thought, I think I may have told hold on. No, it's not that. I'm sorry. Maybe I wrote it down as 51. It was something about location. The bottom right corner said 51 was the number. Okay. Oh, it was in key findings. Yes. Okay. I'm sorry. I was looking for a chart. I'm sorry. Does this represent a two income family or a one? So it depends. Okay. That's not a good answer for you all. So this is based off of when they looked at this in the report. And I hope I'm not about to get that wrong. It's different for every income. So let me give you an example a two income family making $75,100 is considered low income. They're at that 80% okay. So when they're talking about 80%, I'm almost certain in the report we break it down and we show you like 8060 or 80, 30, 50. We break it down further than that when they're making this generalization, it is looking at the amount across all of the households together that fit the 80% column. So that's like the one household, the two household, the three, the four. I hear you talking about teachers and police and I, I know that those positions pay together would pay significantly more than $80,000 is kind of what I'm getting at. It seems to me that if we're talking about the working class people that you're describing in and you're talking about small families, you know, families of four, right? When I look at the actual median number that you're describing there, there then well above what the median $530,000 home is correct. They're going to I don't know those numbers. So I don't want to even give in to that. Well, I wanted to go back to that that screen, I'll tell you that. I can't tell you if every teacher is married to a firefighter, if every teacher is married. So I was just considering a two income families. What I was asking, I gotcha. Then one more question and then I'm done. Here's where I'm really going to nerd out though. When you talk about the median median numbers on the housing chart. Yeah. So that's the number in the middle. Correct. And that means that when I'm looking at the 530,000, that's the that's the actual center point number right there. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. So that that's the actual center point number. So that means there's an equal number of houses south of that, as well as an equal number of houses north of that. Correct? Yes. There is. That is what median is. So yeah, you're right about that. I will tell you, we watch this every month here in our department because we're always having people. When we used to have a first time homebuyer program trying to buy houses, and there are months when you can go online. And actually we have a real estate, we have a real someone with a real estate license on the team. You can go online and see that they're not available. A lot of times that's why we're having to to use this median, finding a house that is that doesn't need a lot of work. That's 360,000 or 400,000 is hard here in Plano. I haven't looked at it for this month, so I don't want to tell you that, but it's where I was going, was you use the term range. And so I was curious beyond median, do you have the mean and the mode numbers as well? I don't have that here. No, but that's something that we could get. It just seemed to me that we would have a full, fuller perspective if we were looking at all of those numbers. So the idea of diversity diversified housing. My wife and I live on a home that's paid off, and I would move into a patio home tomorrow if I could find something that was reasonable, that we could sell our home and be able to to buy another one. So diversified housing, I think is very important. I served on the Comprehensive Plan Commission and it was a priority to me that we have the diversified housing language that we do consider patio homes. And as Mr. Brounoff mentioned, creative out of the box thinking when it comes to the aging population that we have. I've got a 22 year old daughter and a 30 year old son, both of whom are talking about housing and whether they will ever be able to buy a house. My daughter wants to become a librarian, and that's $60,000 a year. And so if it's just her, she's going to be very hard pressed to stay in a community that she's grown up in. And so I'm not being negative about any of this, but I don't want us to just open Plano up so that it no longer becomes the place that you want to live versus the place that everybody can live to build what what is to come. So I do want to maintain that specialness. But I do think it's very important, very important that we find people like your parents and like my wife and I, a place so that we can move out of a four bedroom house and allow another family to come in. Now, I will say, when my wife and I bought this house, it was a house that needed work, and we moved into it and we took, over the course of time, the value of being able to do the work so that we could buy it at a lower price point. So I do think there are a lot of families out there doing that. And I'll close it saying this, I teach as well. I'm a teacher, I teach personal finance, and I'll be really transparent when I hear you use 30%. I teach my kids 25% because, yeah, the the dollars. When you start getting to 30 and 40 and, you know, in some of the numbers you used, I think 48% you're starting to take away from, you know, I told them when we were looking, I said, if I got to those numbers, my wife wouldn't have a thing to eat. And so my children have and my wife have this thing about wanting to eat. And so we had to we had to buy a house that was something that needed some work so that we could get into where we wanted to live, to be able to have that, but to be able to diversify the housing stock, I'm all about it. But I do think we need to consider, when we're talking about the median, that there are a lot of those numbers at that 120% that these families are able to have because of the way the numbers are divided in the median. And that's why the mean and the mode, I think, would also tell us a lot of other additional valuable information. Thank you. So thank you so much for your time today and listening to me blabber on. Thank you for your comments. Okay, I'm going to jump in line because I don't have a number by my name, so and I've got just a couple of comments and and I'll, I'll duck if you want to throw rocks at me because I'm one of those 55 pluses that moved into Plano. And didn't bring kids and and so it's not just people that live here that are aging in place. There are some of us that are moving here for the quality of life. Yeah, that are also absorbing some of that housing stock that you're that is so valuable for our young families as well. So if you want to throw something at me, I understand. No, but but I think that's I think that's an interesting I mean, our situation is not unique because of the price of housing in Plano. It's it's very hard for a people right out of school or people with young families or people that want to move here for the schools to afford to be here. And so as a result, you get a typically I think you're probably I'm going to guess that you're seeing an older demographic, even the people that are purchasing homes just because of the affordability index. That. Is that a fair assumption? That is fair. Yes. What you're just saying that is fair to back that up. Not seeing a lot of 22 year olds buying houses in Plano, I would imagine. No, if they're here, they're renting, I would I would they living with their parents and that's I'm not knocking that at all. And so I didn't see and maybe I missed it because I'll be honest, I scanned the report. I didn't read every word. I would be interested in your opinion about. You talked about people are trading housing costs for for commuting. But you're seeing all this incredible growth. It's been going on for generations that the suburbs grow, right. And and the suburbs have become the exurbs have become the farmland out here in Oklahoma. And so, you know, now you're seeing Prosper Salina and a, you know, points way north. That is where the new houses are being built. What is what is the consultant and yours opinion about. Is that going to help us with some of this, or is that just solving the problems for people that are further out of town than we are, or people commuting in from there, I guess would be my question. So the consultant overall goes back to that, that spreadsheet, that chart doesn't think that there's enough building to build us out of it. I don't know if y'all ever drive down 380. You want to avoid it. Okay, so you understand. And the further you go down, it gets worse and worse. And those communities are still having to catch up. So I people are choosing to live out there and commute to Plano, but it can't be a pleasant commute. Yeah, but that's where the housing is more affordable than here. Yeah okay. That's just my my observations of that. So thank you. This is desperately needed. And it's a it's a problem without a solution I'm afraid. But we can keep working towards it. Yeah. So Commissioner Olli. Couldn't try and propose a solution. One, I think one of the things that exacerbates this problem is Plano is doing its own study. Allen is doing its own study. McKinney is doing its own study. Everybody's doing its own study in a small piece versus where we should be looking at almost like a regional together, trying to figure this out. What is the housing diversification across North Texas? DFW? I don't know how Collin County, I don't know how far. Up we go. So it's more like a proposal. Each planning departments need to have a Kumbaya powwow and what have you. Secondly, the solution, I think, to housing diversification, it's not necessarily housing. I think it's our transportation grid and the ability to go in and out. Yeah. To be a bit better connected. Because the Salinas and the builders and what have you. I have a friend who literally just built a new house in Salina. It's not cheaper. It's actually almost expensive. It's not if not more. Even though their commute is is greater. Secondly, and it's something we addressed when we were looking at the JCPenney build, is essentially trying to bring in a diversification of housing stock, higher quality, although although it was multifamily and what have you that almost. Releases the logjam in that flow. Right. So that, you know, I'm not in the 55 plus range, but I would trade mowing my lawn for a bellman and somebody who can maintain whatever in in a nice, nicely kept high rise and things, things of that nature. So. I think if we look at part of the problem is we're looking at everything in isolation. If we look at it from a more a larger tapestry, perhaps we can start moving this now. Good luck getting all the cities to talk to each other. I'll leave that to the professionals to do. But just a suggestion. A wider lens and aperture and work it. Work. Yeah, I think we have a challenge, Mike. Challenging. Well, I have a you know, like we usually link affordability with the lower standard. So I'm thinking probably we have to work and are like planning department. Maybe we have to work in like on our standards a little bit because you know, like every time even all those like new development, like the one that you mentioned in JCPenney, they like even if it's for 55 and older, they build it at a very high standard. And we want we don't want like a low standard build. But I think it's maybe like the diversity to diversify like the within the same complex. So we keep like the standard but we like we make the build somehow affordable because like we always like see those apartments. Nobody wants them near them. You're like multi-family. Oh you're like it's going to be like low standard, very cheap. You're like standard build. We don't want that. So I think you're like we maybe we can think about a way that you like, make it even if it's doesn't put you like all these like high end, you know, like materials or finishes or something. It's like. But it's still the community as a whole can be like through landscaping, through maybe like the exterior material or like somehow we can work it out. So it's not like it's not a burden to the community or it's not like an eyesore in the community. Like we keep it beautiful, but at the same time, we don't have to put you like those very, you know, expensive. And you can for even for people like 45, 500 or 3500 per month rent, this is one. And you're like, and I have another question. You're like, so do we mind if we encourage our. Business part and how the people live somewhere and they come and spend their money in our city? I don't know about you like this is just a question. I mean, like we know that we have a shortage in housing, but if we strengthen our like retail business offices and how the people commute to us wherever they live, would that be a bad thing or good thing to the city? I'll answer that one, because I think the challenge is that employers need employees. And so it's not just about coming here for retail and restaurant, it's about coming here to work. And and so for our corporate partners to be able to thrive, they need they need an employee base. And so and those are the people that come every day, you know, not just on Friday nights and Saturday afternoons. And so that's I think that's the driving force is to have good quality employment base. We've got to have housing for that employees. Yeah. Yeah. But hopefully they spend money while they're here too. So they should right. Yeah. For lunches and dinners. Yeah. Right. Okay. Commissioner Olli, let me add to that. And getting new blood into Plano is what revitalizes the housing stock. I rented first in Plano for three years. While we figured out what school would best serve our kids. Then when we bought, we've thrown a couple of hundred thousand dollars into the house to make it up to what we do. What tends to happen in the older, rundown single family homes in Plano? I'm going to generalize, tends to be folks that are, if they were coming into Plano right now, cannot afford it. Right. So but but they've been here for a while and what have you. So we actually to your point about rundown multi-family and what have you I think there's an equal problem on rundown looking single family detached. And that is because we are not moving. There's a the system is gunked up right. And there's not blood flowing through the system. So it's a yes. And and it's going to if we can figure this out, it lifts the whole vibe of the community. And it's not just a solve for affordability. It's overall to revitalize Plano. We have to get the system moving again. So you're suggesting we need a higher turn rate, which becomes a chicken and egg problem. Exactly, exactly. All right. Any other comments? Nobody. Thank you very much. This has been very informative and thanks for letting me come. It's I'll have I have to repeat what Commissioner Ali led with. It's obvious that you enjoy your job. You're still smiling at eight, whatever it is at night and enjoying what you do. So thank you for for educating us. Thank you all. We appreciate it. Do we have any other business before the Commission this evening? No, sir. All right. We'll stand adjourned at 8:30 p.m. And what other projects conflict with the overlay? This process can take up to two