This is a transcript of the **Lakeville Planning Commission** meeting from May 9, 2024. While the names provided in your list are primarily City Council members, the speakers here are Planning Commissioners (identified during the roll call) and City Staff. [0:20] [Music] [0:47] **Chair Tinsley:** I call to order the May 9th 2024 Planning Commission meeting. Uh, please join me in the flag pledge. [1:16] **Chair Tinsley:** And will you please take a roll call of members? Oh first, sorry, I skipped that. All right, agenda item number two: the swearing in of our new Planning Commission member, um, Alex Chini. So Alex, if you want to come right up to front there. [2:20] **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** And now a roll call of members please. Tinsley? **Chair Tinsley:** Here. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Chini? **Commissioner Chini:** Here. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Kusza? **Commissioner Kusza:** Here. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Morovic? **Commissioner Morovic:** Here. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Zimmer? **Commissioner Zimmer:** Here. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Swenson? **Commissioner Swenson:** Here. [2:30] **Chair Tinsley:** Thank you. Agenda item number four, approval of minutes. Um, approval of the April 25th 2024 Planning Commission meeting minutes. Fellow Commissioners, any changes? No? The meeting or the minutes will stand. And agenda item number five, any announcements? Uh, provided tonight's item is not tabled, the May 23rd, uh, Planning Commission meeting will be cancelled. All right, thank you. [3:06] **Chair Tinsley:** All right, and agenda item number six. Um, this is a public hearing for Deborah Holman to consider the application of Deborah Holman for an interim use permit to allow, um, an apiary, which is beekeeping, in the RS2 single-family residential district located at 18005 Jacquard Path. And then here to speak about the item briefly is Deborah. If you'd like to come up to the front, please. [3:24] **Deborah Holman:** Hi, my name is Deborah Holman. Good evening. Um, my intent for the plan for the apiary is, um, to start out with one colony and eventually adding my second, which is the maximum limit I believe I can have for the size acreage I have. Um, I have no intent to sell the honey; would rather gift if there's any surplus to friends and family. Um, the type of bee I'm looking at is either a hybrid Italian Carniolan bee, and they're bred with a focus on hygienic behavior and a gentle temperament. Um, and they also have mite-resistant characteristics. Um, management plan for them would be to use IPM, which is, um, sorry, Integrated Pest Management, which is also includes the powder sugar dusting, screened bottom board, green drone comb, breaking the queen's brood cycle, etc., etc. Um, I will be testing for mites and treating if necessary. Um, and then also we'll be doing swarm methods—creating an artificial swarm, caging the queen, and giving them their adequate space. Um, in the event for the behavior of the bees that they become too defensive, obviously I would re-queen them. Um, so yeah, try to answer any questions anyone has. Thank you. [5:06] **Tina Goodroad (Community Development Director):** Yep, thank you Chair, members of the commission. I'm just going to do a quick overview, um, of the item. Um, Frank, um, prepared this report. I'm hopefully you all had a chance to review it. Um, he is out of town tonight. Um, so Deborah Holman has, um, submitted the application for an interim use permit. Um, the property is located at 18005 Jacquard Path and it is zoned RS2 single-family residential. So you can see arrows on the map, um, where the property is located. This is a layout of the, um, of her property and so she's asking for an interim use permit to allow an apiary, um, as an accessory use. Um, the interim use permit does allow up to two, um, for, um, two apiaries—I'm not even sure if I'm saying that right—apiaries, apiaries, um, for the keeping of honeybees at the northwest corner of the property. So you can see on the site plan there's an existing shed up in the corner and then the location for the hive just, um, adjacent to the shed. Um, these are allowed in the residential districts with an interim use permit in accordance with performance standards. Um, so what Frank did in the staff report is he went, um, and provided detailed information as to the interim use performance criteria. I'm not going to highlight all of those. Um, again, the applicant has more knowledge on how these function and work than staff. This is the very first time, um, we have received this application. This was introduced into the zoning ordinance, my understanding, several years ago, um, but the ordinance does lay out, um, quite a bit of criteria and through the review we have determined that the applicant does meet each of the criteria, um, required for this interim use to be issued. So some of the things that, um, she's already highlighted: um, they're limited to a number of two colonies just based on her property size; needs to be within 20 ft of the property line and you can see that she's tucking it in, um, away from, um, the home as well as right next to the shed; it needs to be, uh, required in the rear yard, which it is; um, not located within a wetland, that's not an issue. Um, and again, um, just to give a little aerial perspective, you can see there's quite a bit of vegetation, um, some on her property, some on an adjacent property. And so as, um, staff was doing this review, we felt that, um, the the existing landscaping, the existing trees are meeting the requirement for providing that dense vegetative buffer. In the event that the neighboring property would remove that, there is stipulation that a fence meeting that six-foot in height requirement, um, be provided. And so that has been made as a condition, um, laid out in Frank's report. Um, so that we believe satisfies that performance criteria. Um, the interim use permit would terminate upon, um, ownership change to the property or if it lapsed in use for one year or greater. Again, staff's review of the performance standards within section 11-4-7 and finds the interim use permit application meets all the standards. Um, there is a Findings of Fact in your packet and then on the last page of the staff report Frank has laid out five stipulations—again, referencing back to the zoning ordinance, um, as well as, um, how the interim use permit would terminate again upon sale or discontinued use for more than a year. Again, I will stand for any questions to the best of my ability based on what the zoning ordinance tells us, and the applicant will be happy to answer questions as well. Thank you. [8:46] **Chair Tinsley:** And this is a public hearing, so anyone wishing to speak on this agenda item, uh, you can please come forward now. [8:54] **Julie Asgard:** Hello, my name is Julie Asgard, and my husband Jay is also here tonight. [9:05] **Chair Tinsley:** Will you, will you pull the microphone down a little bit so we can hear you better? Thank you. [9:07] **Julie Asgard:** Let me know, is this okay? Okay, perfect. Um, we live at 18031 Jacquard Path in Lakeville. We were the first family to live in our development; we've lived here for 25 years. We're here to share our concerns about our next-door neighbor's application for a permit to have bees. An article in the *Sun This Week* news in 2017 included the following comments: Councilmember Colleen LaBeau expressed concern about allowing beehives because many people are extremely allergic to bee stings and allowing people to farm them could put them in a life-threatening situation. She questioned how long-term residents would feel with the change to allow beehives on neighboring property when there was no such ordinance in place when they moved in. Councilmember Luke Hellier said he supports the ordinance, which limits the location and number of hives allowed on a property, but would propose reviewing it after a year to see if there are problems or complaints. "If there are issues, I'd like to be able to look at that," Hellier said. "I don't have anybody who is allergic, but I could definitely see how people would be concerned about that." Mayor Doug Anderson said he also supports the ordinance but shared concerns about how the bees could affect people. The Holman's request to keep bees is the first to come forward since adoption of the regulations. The concerns expressed in this article mirror the concerns we have as a next-door neighbor. My daughter is severely allergic to bees and needs to carry a medically prescribed EpiPen. Several of our friends are also allergic to bee stings, one of whom also requires an EpiPen. They understand that bee stings can occur naturally anywhere in nature, but intentionally placing a hive or hives of bees on an adjacent city property is irresponsible. Unlike chickens that are in a coop or dogs that are leashed, these bees are not contained. The Holman's request is for up to two hives. One hive has 10,000 bees and she has said that she's planning to purchase a second hive next year of an additional 10,000 bees. That's 20,000 bees even before they reproduce. I understand that typically one-third of the bee population forages, but that's still thousands more than would appear naturally in our vicinity. Having that number of bees exponentially increases the likelihood that our guests and daughter could be stung. We have a large garden filled with flowering bushes, annuals, and perennials, approximately 50 ft by 25 ft, and it's on the side right next to their property. Having a few bees visit there that occur naturally in nature is one thing; intentionally placing thousands upon thousands more next door is completely different and has serious ramifications. As I've stated, several of our friends and our daughter are allergic to bee stings. Most people don't fully understand bee sting allergies. Each time someone is stung, they're susceptible to more and more serious reactions. The last time my daughter was stung, she needed immediate medical intervention. Reactions can range from mild to severe. Severe reactions to a bee sting include anaphylaxis, which is life-threatening and requires emergency medical treatment. The symptoms of anaphylaxis can develop rapidly—difficulty breathing, loss of consciousness; it can cause death within minutes. This is serious. Most people think, "Well, if you're stung, just use an EpiPen." An EpiPen does not take the place of medical care and requires emergency help immediately after using. It's a scary situation. I can understand having bees on a property with 5 acres or so where there's plenty of room for them to forage. We are in a neighborhood where our properties are close together and this will directly affect how I can use my property. As a reminder, these bees are not contained. I should not have to consider whether or not we can have friends over who have severe allergies to bee stings. I should not have to wonder if we stay inside when my daughter and grandchildren are over when normally we play in the side yard next to their property. I should not have to consider tearing out a large garden on my property that I have planted and cultivated for the last 25 years for the safety of my daughter and my friends. Their decision to raise thousands of bees adjacent to our property where we have guests and family members with medically diagnosed allergies from bee stings is reckless. I request that the permit is denied or at least delayed until the city places additional restrictions on these permits that address the concerns initially expressed by the council members and mayor before it was instituted. Thank you. [14:48] **Chair Tinsley:** Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak at the public hearing? [14:55] **Commissioner Kusza:** Madam Chair? **Chair Tinsley:** Yes. **Commissioner Kusza:** Motion to close the public hearing. **Commissioner Zimmer:** Second. [15:00] **Chair Tinsley:** I have a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All those in favor please signify by saying aye. **Commissioners:** Aye. **Chair Tinsley:** All opposed? All right, the public hearing is now closed. [15:10] **Commissioner Kusza:** Fellow Commissioners, yes, um, I have a couple of questions for, uh, Director Goodroad. Uh, she might be able to answer. Um, uh, I understand, uh, in the planning report that, um, neighbors, uh, within 500 feet were notified of this. Um, and I, I believe—correct me if I'm wrong—that the, the—that is greater than than what's in statute? [15:44] **Tina Goodroad:** That is correct. Whenever we have a public hearing notice, State Statute requires us to send notices to adjacent properties with 350 ft of the boundary of the subject property, um, in which the application is concerned. The City of Lakeville requires that to be within 500 ft. [16:03] **Commissioner Kusza:** Thank you. And then, um, I understand the, the concerns about, uh, reaction. I'm someone that carries an EpiPen. Um, what is—I under—I know that, uh, EMS, um, has EpiPens, but, uh, what about our, uh, other first responders to the, uh, to the fire station? Um, have those...? [16:25] **Tina Goodroad:** My understanding is the fire department, um, those members who take calls do. I don't believe we got confirmation whether the police officers do. [16:33] **Commissioner Kusza:** Okay. And fires usually gets there before the EMS does anyways in the city, so. Thank you. Those are all my questions for the director. [16:44] **Chair Tinsley:** Thank you. Uh, I also had a couple questions. Is there anywhere that I saw in the staff report that there is recourse if there's unusual aggressive behavior? Is there anywhere that that's defined? [16:56] **Tina Goodroad:** The terminology is not defined. [17:01] **Chair Tinsley:** Okay. How, how is that determination made then, whether it's unusual or not? [17:06] **Tina Goodroad:** Um, I don't know, Deb, you might be able to help answer that one better than I can. I'm not an expert on bees. Um, but yeah, when the ordinance was written, that particular, um, statement was not defined. [17:15] **Deborah Holman:** Um, again, this is my first year beekeeping, so I'm learning as I go as well. Done lots of studying. Um, so when they become aggressive or defensive, they are defending their hive. Um, mostly it would be for when the beekeeper goes into the hive, whether you have to wear a suit or not, um, depends on the temperament—which these are bred, which I said before, for, for their gentle temperament. Um, sorry, I don't know how else to answer that, but yeah, you would end up re-queening, bringing in a new queen which has new characteristics; it would tame the hive back down again then. [18:15] **Chair Tinsley:** I just have a couple more questions. So if, if the bees—so is there any recourse for neighbors if the bees become a nuisance or make it difficult or impossible for neighbors to enjoy their yards, whether or not they're, uh, stinging or just everywhere? [18:29] **Tina Goodroad:** As, um, as with any interim use permit or conditional use permit, there is always the opportunity if we do receive complaints, concerns, that we can, we can get involved. And we can visit with the property owner that is holding the permit, find out exactly what is going on, visit with the person who is complaining or having a concern over it, find out what's going on from their end. And if we do see that they are in violation of what the ordinance requires and what the interim use permit stipulations say, then we can bring it to the Planning Commission [and] Council for revocation. So there is steps in which we can do that for any interim use permit or any conditional use permit. [19:16] **Chair Tinsley:** And then just my last question would be: is there any sort of prohibition on neighbors using like bee spray or pest control or that sort of thing? [19:28] **Tina Goodroad:** I do not believe so. [19:29] **Commissioner Morovic:** Madam Chair? I had a couple of questions. Yes, um, Tina, um, Miss Goodroad maybe should stay there, but I thought we should ask Officer Hansen if he can answer the question about: do police carry EpiPens? [19:42] **Officer Hansen:** Law enforcement does not. We are trained to use them, but we do not carry them. [19:47] **Commissioner Morovic:** Thank you. Um, this is our first apiary—am I pronouncing that correctly? Apiary. Um, so 10,000 bees sounds like massive, uncontrollable. I could never imagine wanting to have that anywhere for me to be anywhere near it. How many bees—and whether this is from Miss Goodroad or from Miss Holman—how many bees are normally around? I, I too garden a lot and have been really working hard to have mine be as beautiful as possible. My favorite thing is flowers; I'm not doing vegetables, so it's everything the bees would like. Um, how many bees are there normally, and how many bees would be coming out of the hive that are foraging and that kind...? I, I understand someone said a third of the bees are out foraging. What, what does that mean? How far do they go? Do they just come to my yard if I live next door? I don't understand any of those pieces. [20:49] **Deborah Holman:** Um, I do know, be—when bees are desperate, they can go up to five miles to get their food. Um, typically they stay around within a mile, two-mile radius of their hive for foraging. [21:12] **Commissioner Morovic:** Can I ask another question? And, um, if I'm normally out in my yard doing gardening in my lilacs and my flowers and everything else, I don't—I mean, I see some bees, not a lot. If someone had a colony next to me, uh, living next door, is that where the bees would come because my garden would provide everything that they're interested in? [21:35] **Deborah Holman:** Uh, I can't say they wouldn't come to you. [21:40] **Commissioner Morovic:** And would it—I mean, you wouldn't have flowers if it wasn't for bees. [21:44] **Deborah Holman:** Understood. Yes. [21:46] **Commissioner Morovic:** But I seem to be doing fine growing them with the number of bees that are around. So to have 10,000, and you're saying a third of those would be out looking for food? [22:00] **Deborah Holman:** Correct. Um, do keep in mind bees only live 35 to 45 days and then the process starts over again. And so the 10,000 gets reduced every 35 to 40 days, and then they reproduce. Yeah, it's, it's kind of an ongoing cycle. So there's always eggs being laid, bees dying. [22:15] **Commissioner Morovic:** Yes. Okay, right. [22:21] **Deborah Holman:** And just to, um, add to the stinging thing, um, or aggressiveness, is, um, bees do not sting unless they are rolled in your... something rolls them or they're pinched and they let off their pheromone. Then that alarms the whole colony. [22:38] **Commissioner Morovic:** And if it alarms the whole colony, do they all come running? [22:42] **Deborah Holman:** The ones that need to, okay, unless you smoke that area right away and they cannot communicate. Thank you. [22:45] **Commissioner Zimmer:** So, um, my brother is a beekeeper. He has a hive. Um, although he doesn't live in Lakeville, I have been to his house, um, multiple times and I've actually—they also have a very large garden. But I guess just for some perspective, um, I have not seen bees all over his property. They generally, um, to my experience in his hive, they are not like out of their hive and in like mass amounts that one might think. Um, they're just there and they don't really do anything from my experience. Um, I've been there with my child, with my animal, um, and we've never had any issues. Although I don't, I don't know what type of bees they are or anything like that. But just to give like a little bit more perspective, I guess, of that and experience that I have had, um, I haven't seen them in mass quantities be like outside or be a nuisance around a garden or in a close proximity. I don't know if that's helpful. [23:53] **Commissioner Chini:** Um, maybe two questions. One, maybe for the applicant or anyone knowledgeable about bees: I think, uh, responding or trying to get at the—think the crux of the issue of: do we know for a size of this colony or hive how dispersed the bees are? You mentioned that they typically will go and forage for up to a mile and even further if need be. Do bees tend to forage or go to select or congregated areas? Right, if they find no flower gardens or anything like that, where they would tend to repeat or group, uh, higher in higher rates than normal, or do they go in large areas, uh, seeking forging? [24:46] **Commissioner Chini:** Um, maybe one follow-up: would you expect a colony or hive of this size to be any different than one that would occur naturally? [24:59] **Deborah Holman:** Okay. [25:01] **Commissioner Chini:** Um, and then one maybe for staff: I think certainly this, uh, exact situation was maybe one, you know, for the first, uh, colony requests that we have here, probably testing the limits. Um, probably didn't anticipate that when the ordinance was written seven years ago. Did I hear that right? Um, when it was written and it was discussed, did we as a city look at any peer cities and see if there were any increases in incident rates of the attacks, um, complaints, things like that for other cities in the area that have adopted these ordinance and had, uh, colonies put put in? [25:34] **Tina Goodroad:** I think, um, Planning Manager Jensen could probably give a little bit more historical perspective, but I'm not aware of any research that we've done after the fact once the ordinance has been put into place with other cities. [25:52] **Staff Member (Planning Manager Jensen):** Yeah, at the time that the language was proposed, it was actually a school group that came in and did and presented it to us, um, and that's how the issue came up. But that was adopted by Council. We did not do, um, beyond a perhaps a cursory review of, uh, perhaps some of the neighboring cities to see whether they had, um, regulations for for bees on hand, but there was not a, there was not a widespread study about the issue, uh, before it was put into place. [26:22] **Chair Tinsley:** Um, I saw in the staff report that when the ordinance was put in place, uh, you looked at other cities. Were they similar lot sizes? Because all the beekeepers that I've talked to have much larger lots than we would see in a neighborhood here. Um, I'm just wondering if that was looked at when they adopted this. [26:41] **Tina Goodroad:** Again, the the information was brought forward and proposed by a group. Um, typically when we're looking at, um, communities for—to see how they address issues, we look at some of our area communities that are very similar to us: Burnsville, Apple Valley, Rosemount, Eagan, etc. So yes, those, those communities do have similar lot sizes, um, to Lakeville, which is why we use them for those type of research and comparisons. [27:18] **Commissioner Swenson:** And Madam Chair, um, I was here when that discussion took place. I might be able to add some to that. I know that one of the things that we discussed was that, um, you know, even in like Minneapolis, that, that they're allowed and those are significantly smaller lots. And I, I know that we did talk—Commissioner Kusza might be able to correct me if I'm wrong—but we did talk about tailoring the ordinance, um, to restrictions based on lot size. That, you know, it's a different picture if you are in a neighborhood like the applicant or if you are on one of the, you know, 10-acre lots in the city. [27:54] **Commissioner Swenson:** Madam Chair, I think Commissioner Kusza is on the right path here that, um, we, we did have those conversations and, and I was around at the same time when, when this came through. Um, and to my recollection, we did—when we this ordinance was crafted and and when it was put together, it was very much based on what neighboring communities had already done. Um, this was—we were not pioneers in this area by any stretch of the imagination. Um, that many of our peer communities like mention Apple Valley, Burnsville, Eagan, Plymouth, Maple Grove—um, as examples—typically already had an ordinance like this in place, um, similar types of restrictions. So we weren't working from scratch when the ordinance was put together. Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are differences in how many bees we allow depending on lot size. So we did do some crafting based on lot size and what was anticipated, um, that type of thing. Um, again, we we're not pioneers here in what we did and what we created with the ordinance, um, and what we put together here. [28:55] **Commissioner Swenson:** Um, if I may continue: um, similar to other Commissioners, I have family members who are beekeepers, um, not necessarily primary parts of their business. I have one part of my family that, um, it's actually the kids have bees and they, um, they sell honey at local county events and and that type of thing. And I will grant they're on a much larger acreage situation and in what they're doing than what we are looking at here. But similarly, as was mentioned, Minneapolis is the complete opposite example that, um, allows this type of thing on much smaller lots and that type of thing. Say, I've been to multiple family members' places with bees and I don't feel like you're overrun with bees or anything around you. It feels natural, like normal habitat, that type of thing. I have family members who are very allergic to bee stings, work in the floriculture and horticulture industry, um, and are around bees and that type of thing. And it's, it's, it's part of what they have to deal with in their life. Um, so I'm, I'm cognizant of those issues as well. Um, so mulling over a lot of things in my head here is—is as we're looking at this and thinking about it. Um, last thing I just want to ask Miss Goodroad here: um, can you talk a little bit—we've used that pyramid of discretion on what the Planning Commission can and can't do or should be doing. Um, can you talk about where we are in that kind of pyramid and what our discretion is here, um, with an interim use permit? [30:33] **Tina Goodroad:** Yep. So if you, um, recall that pyramid, we're, um, close to the top. Um, we're just from the second one down, which is kind of automatic approvals like a site plan, um, as long as we're meeting the ordinance requirements. So very similar to any kind of conditional use and interim use when we have stipulations. And that's why whenever we have an interim use or conditional use, we list those stipulations right in the ordinance. We go through the application materials and make sure, um, whether it's the initial application or revisions of plans, that we're able to identify that they meet the stipulations. And if they do meet the stipulations, the, the permit should be approved. [31:14] **Commissioner Morovic:** Yes, if I'm right, this was 2017 when the ordinance was passed, and now it's seven years later and we're having our first one. It kind of feels like maybe we need to revisit and see what's going on in other cities with their experiences and figure out, um, if there's been other problems since we don't really know any of that before we move forward with it. And I, I did note when, um, our—at a—at the public hearing, um, the letter that was read, that it was a review after one year in the ordinance. And since we've not enacted anything of the ordinance, would that apply to after one year reviewing it? Um, once the [permit] is uh allowed? I'm under—I'm not understanding that part of it. [32:00] **Tina Goodroad:** Um, I'm not entirely sure either since I wasn't here in 2017. But it appears from what, um, um, she read that there might have been some discussion at Council level that it should be examined, I think with the assumption that after that ordinance will be put in place, somebody would come in right away and make an application, and that didn't happen. I think in this case, um, as an interim use, a stipulation could be added for staff to visit the property, visit with the applicant, make sure everything is going well, that we're not having any issues. If you wanted to add that as a condition, I think that would be appropriate. But, um, I'm not entirely sure what that one council member, former council member, reference to one year was; I wasn't here then. [32:56] **Commissioner Kusza:** Yes, um, I would be supportive of that stipulation. I, I was here when when this ordinance went in and, you know, we did think that more people... me, people jumped on the chickens, um, and not as many people were as excited about bees, I guess. But, um, you know, this is our first, uh, application. You know, if there are issues that arise, I'd be open to, um, you know, looking at it. In our—I mean, in our work session today, we're talking about zoning ordinance amendments; we do that regularly, um, to deal with issues that arise. Yeah, I would be open to looking at that if there are issues. But to me, this comes down to—and, um, Commissioner Swenson, uh, mentioned it and Director Goodroad explained it—there's kind of a, a pyramid. Um, you know, at the bottom is things where we have a lot of discretion over; it's things like, um, zoning, it's writing of ordinances. Um, and, you know, the closer you get to the top, the less discretion you have. And, uh, you know, the function of the Planning Commission is really to look at, um—for something like an interim use permit—uh, okay, this is what the zoning ordinance says, these are the criteria in the, that zoning ordinance, um, for someone to qualify for an interim use permit. And we're looking at this application and, you know, with the help of staff looking to see under what is written in the zoning ordinance, does this application coming before us meet those criteria? And as long as that applicant does, we don't have a lot of discretion whether or not, uh, to deny that permit. And, um, like I said, I'd be open to, uh, a stip—an additional stipulation that, you know, staff, uh, go on and check to make sure that everything's okay. And I would hope that the applicant, um, uh, you know, we can't require this, but, you know, would attempt to work with their neighbors if any issues do arise and and kind of be that good neighbor so everyone can enjoy, uh, their own property, um, uh, in the way that they wish to. But, um, I, I plan on supporting this. I, I've read the staff report; I believe that, um, uh, Ms. Holman is meeting the ordinance with, uh, her application. Um, but I would support, uh, that additional stipulation. [35:42] **Commissioner Morovic:** I have a further question I forgot to ask in my first part. Thank you, Chair. There was some comments in the report from Mr. Dempsey about the directional, um, walls and things that needed to be up. And I see how it's—was placed in the photograph in front of, um, the shed. And, uh, I don't know, is there another wall on the other side to make it grow taller? It and so the bees could just go straight across into the neighbor's yard, except for going towards the back they'd have to go up and then over the shed, or else they could just choose to go straight out and over to the neighbors. Is that...? And I don't know how bees fly or anything about it. [36:28] **Tina Goodroad:** So what the ordinance calls for is a fence or a wall or some vegetation that's, um, capable of interrupting the direct flight of the bees and to redirect. And so in the review of this, with the amount of vegetation both on the subject property and adjacent property, we felt that was being—that category of requirements was being met. And so the stipulation to add fencing was added and as a condition of the ultimate interim use permit is if that vegetation on neighboring property were removed so that that criteria then would no longer be met. [37:10] **Commissioner Zimmer:** Yes, qu—question for, uh, Miss Holman. Uh, we had had several comments about, you know, you'd re-queen them if they got aggressive, but who determines when they're aggressive? Is it you, is it...? And how do you make that determination? [37:28] **Deborah Holman:** Um, um, that is determined on how they react when I open the hive—on whether they just attack me or let me do my job is your first indication. [37:51] **Commissioner Zimmer:** I would be supportive of the one-year follow-up on this. And then, uh, a couple of other comments: there's a lot of things in life that just because you can do it doesn't necessarily mean you should do it. And I would encourage the, the neighbors to be vocal, to—if you have issues, bring them up, bring them to Council, um, and and just let's work through this as opposed to having a problem come up. [38:18] **Commissioner Chini:** Any additional comments, Madam Chair? [38:23] **Tina Goodroad:** Maybe it would be good if we can get a sense of the Planning Commission if they would be supportive of that additional stipulation. **Commissioners:** Yes, yes. [38:32] **Commissioner Chini:** Maybe question there: two things. One was maybe more in the near term after build-out and one was maybe stated a year after. I don't know if we're thinking both or which one is more important for dis—defining success. [38:46] **Commissioner Zimmer:** Yeah, I I would be in support of Commissioner Kusza or what, uh, Miss Goodroad said regarding having staff maybe come out and visit, um, maybe after they get there and settled to kind of determine what that looks like, uh, earlier as opposed to like maybe a full year. [38:54] **Commissioner Kusza:** Madam Chair, uh, maybe Miss Jensen or Miss Goodroad might have some wordsmithing, suggested language, that will help guide us? [39:15] **Tina Goodroad:** What I would suggest—and, um, I'll look to Miss Holman to get some thoughts too. Um, again, I don't know a lot about beekeeping, but once, um, you obtain the bees and they're established in the hive, they start doing their thing, I'm assuming. So maybe it's, um, her contacting staff once that is all established and we can go out, walk the property, visit the property to see what kind of activity, things are going on. And then I would add: do another follow-up within a year. Seem reasonable? **Deborah Holman:** Yep. [40:15] **Tina Goodroad:** And that'll help staff learn a little bit more too since we haven't had this kind of application—had lots of chickens like you said, but haven't had this kind of application yet. [40:22] **Chair Tinsley:** Okay. Are we ready, ready for a motion, Madam Chair? [40:25] **Commissioner Kusza:** Yes. I motion to recommend approval of the Deborah Holman interim use permit subject to the six stipulations listed in the May 3rd, 2024 planning report as amended. **Commissioner Swenson:** Second. [40:41] **Chair Tinsley:** All right, I have a motion and a second. Will you please take a roll call vote? [40:48] **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Chini? **Commissioner Chini:** Aye. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Kusza? **Commissioner Kusza:** Aye. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Morovic? **Commissioner Morovic:** Aye. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Zimmer? **Commissioner Zimmer:** Aye. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Swenson? **Commissioner Swenson:** Aye. **City Clerk Ann Orlofsky:** Tinsley? **Chair Tinsley:** Aye. [41:00] **Chair Tinsley:** All right, and then I forgot—this doesn't go in front of... it does? It does? Okay. So when will this go in front of [Council]? [41:07] **Tina Goodroad:** May 20th. [41:08] **Chair Tinsley:** All right. Um, well best of luck Miss Holman. Um, hopefully this goes well. Again as stated, um, communicate, work together; it'll be a learning experience. And then those additional stipulations will be added in there. So thank you. Um, all right, and then after this we have our work session and this meeting is adjourned. [41:57] [Music]