you you you you good evening everyone I will call the Burnsville city council work session to order and we'll go around the table because we have some guests in the audience that I think our residents would like to know who's around a table and and who's in the audience Elizabeth Coates mayor Burnsville Vince workman city council Chris crow me with Bolton Inc malik line with MnDOT Greg Lindberg deputy city manager Melanie Lee city manager City Council and we'll go to you welcome everybody welcome thank you and and our work sessions we go directly to our agenda and the first item is the MnDOT Highway 13 corridor study and I'm going to go to our city engineer Jenn des root to make the introductions about consultants who are reporting on this so tonight we have represented my client and their consulting engineer Chris crow me to talk about the trunk highway 13 corridor study that they have been working on for a few months okay very good welcome thank you very much mayor and city council I'm Molly Klein I'm a stealth area engineer at MnDOT and tonight we'd just like to share some information about the highway 13 study that we're currently working on and Chris chrome you will get you into all of the details here tonight as Molly mentioned my name is Chris crow meet with Bolton Bank and I'm the project manager for the corridor study it's a collaborative effort with MnDOT the city of Burnsville city of savage Dakota County and Scott County as well as FHWA I'll give you a brief overview of the of the study area that we're looking at we are studying highway 13 beginning at Nicollet avenues all the way over to a highway 169 and as you know that corridor has multiple personalities as you drive through there with with various improvements that have happened over the year years and the intent of the study is to develop an overall vision what is this what does this corridor ultimately want to be or need to be to serve the modes of traffic through the through the corridor so it is a two-year study but much of the work is going to be happening as far as the visioning is going to be happening in year one partially because there is a project that is already funded in the city of savage at the ports of savage to make improvements to the freight operations along Highway 13 that project is currently funded for construction in 2022 so just two years out so some of the the needs of the corridor I know I'm preaching to the choir on this but highway 13 regularly on daily basis operates over it's operating capacity there's congestion along the corridor several of the intersections along Highway 13 have high crash rates so there's a safety concern in the corridor as well and then the truck movements that are that are occurring through the through the corridor there are there are multiple large trucks that move through on a daily basis and there are safety concerns both for the trucks and for other modes of transportation and then the the pedestrian bicycles and and transit in the corridor all exist in pieces and so the intent is that is to make them part of the vision for the corridor as well so I'm gonna touch on a little bit of the congestion issues the map that's on the screen here illustrates what happens and during the morning commute all the shaded area indicates areas of congestion the red shading indicates areas that there's more than two hours of congestion and on a regular basis you can see that much of the congestion is at the signalized intersections as you would expect where we see cues as long as a quarter to a half a mile on a on a regular basis we are studying both the effects of the interstate 35w interchange and the 169 air change in the congestion that that causes when we don't anticipate the study to go beyond highway 13 though there are other things happening on one on one 69 and interstate 35 that will address those congestion issues in the afternoon you can see there's more red in the corridor again mainly at the the signalized intersections where those cues are backing up more than a quarter quarter mile and delays can get up over three three to four minutes at a particular signalized intersection I mentioned the the freight movement through the corridor this is a very important freight corridor the the purple on the map here indicate destinations or trip origins or destinations for for large trucks and other freight movements freight accounts for eight percent of the daily traffic on highway 13 so it is a substantial portion of the traffic most corridors we see in the 3 to 4 percent range for freight movement many of these locations don't have alternative access there isn't a local Street connection to them their access is directly off of highway 13 so maintaining movements to them are going to be important inherently these are heavy big trucks they have different physical characteristics than cars they accelerate and decelerate much slower in many cases which can lead to the the congestion issues on highway 13 and then last but not least there were there were more than 30 crashes recorded in the five-year period that we looked at that involved a heavy trucks and many of those thirty crashes resulted in serious injury crashes because of the physical characteristics of those of those vehicles so we know highway 13 is important for Freight it's important for the local economy and what's happening the jobs that it creates here but it's also statewide the movements of freight come through here from all over the state of Minnesota some of the safety issues that we're seeing at intersections you know currently there are six intersections that have above the average crash rates that we would expect from that type of an intersection and the volume of traffic at that intersection and 50 percent of the crashes throughout the whole corridor are rear-end crashes that are generally attributed to congested signalized intersections can you talk a little bit more because it's the purple area that's really a lot of crashes between Nicollet and 35 w can you talk a little bit more about that is that both morning and evening that's I we look at crashes throughout the day so it's not it's not just a.m. or p.m. thing but we highlighted that segment between the 35w interchange in Nicollet because that segment itself has more crashes than we would expect for a four-lane expressway above the the statewide average for a facility like that and it's likely due to driver expectation coming from us system to system type interchange into a signalized conject condition it's also a highly congested area so there are many crashes attributed to the congestion and the in that particular area no MBTA is there so lots of buses a lot of lots of bus transit lots of traffic turning at Nicollet entering eggs in the freeway exiting the freeway at higher speeds than maybe what's expected on highway 13 a lot of weaving in between Nicollet and 35 and 35 and Nicollet okay and goes without saying but feel free to interrupt me as I go here if you have questions in many ways the transportation issues in the corridor much easier than some of the sensitive issues that we that we need to work through there's a reason that highway 13 is the way it is and a lot of that has to do with the natural features of course we have the we have the Minnesota River to the north and the floodplain associate with the Minnesota River in savage we have the savage fen which basically precludes any any development in and around that region so between Quintin Avenue and highway 13 to the south there's really no local roadway system and then we have the the Rudy Kramer Nature Preserve here in Burnsville as well as the Sioux Fisher Memorial Park all adjacent to highway 13 so much of the local roadway system supporting highway 13 is in a form of frontage roads or our local streets so as we look at as we look at access conditions on highway 13 we also have to look at how does that work with the local roadway system the county and city streets providing access to properties so I'm gonna zoom into a couple of our focus areas in the study corridor and I'll kind of zip through the savage ones a little bit but I do want to touch on the the ports of savage there are three ports that are in operations they're the primary access points for those ports are directly off of highway 13 at Dakota Avenue cemani Avenue and Lynn Avenue and none of the three ports are connected to any other public street as you probably know if you travel this corridor there's some seasonal fluctuation in the trucks but when corn prices are high there are trucks parked out on that roadway trucks can't can not only can they get into the port they have a difficult time getting out of the port because of the traffic so we're studying this area pretty close and I mentioned this is the region Dakota is somebody that it currently has some dollars allocated for a project in 2020 to downtown savage savages downtown and retail district is right along how it's a block off of highway 13 they rely heavily on on the live Lynn Avenue intersection as does one of the ports so we'll be taking a close look at what we can do there to improve mobility on thirteen and maintain and enhance access to the downtown area the downtown area has some more focus bicycle and pedestrian needs Minnesota Valley Transit doesn't stop eight times a day in downtown Savage which inherently creates pedestrians but there's also school Church other organizations there and residential there that are generating pedestrian bicycle trips on the Burnsville side of things kind of skipped over the the Chawan Washburn area but we will be looking at the Chow and Washburn area and how that works for the businesses in in Burnsville but also provides some connectivity back into the savage downtown area and then a another key location that we look are looking at is the niccola to avenue area and some of the development that has occurred here in Burnsville over the last 20 years with the at the heart of the city the higher density residential transit oriented development the transit station on the north side a lot of the houses in retail on the south side and then of course the introduction of the orange line station as well so we will be studying that that Nicollet intersection closely there's a lot of different demands on that intersection and as we unplug the drain to the west with traffic you know that this has the potential of being you know one of the only signals up from coming from the west on on highway 13 so we need to make sure that we understand the downstream effects is some of the things we do at Washburn and Lin and and Quentin mention the the transit in in savage similarly there's transit stops throughout the heart of the city local transit and then the connection to the transit station at Nicollet and in highway 13 so we will be looking at how we can better connect those things I know there's a desire there's been a desire for desire or a need for some sort of pedestrian great separation connecting those two that'll be part of part of our evaluation as well as the vehicular access in and out of the the Nicollet Avenue area so we're about four months into our two years study and we had our we had our first open house meeting last week over in savage where we had we had really good attendance we had about 70 people there and a good mix of individuals we had representatives from the port's some of the local businesses residents some people have been involved in earlier studies and wanted wants to see things come to fruition others who are seeing this for the first time not not realizing that that there's a history here and in the corridor confirmed a lot of the things that we were seeing confirmed a lot of the issues that were identified in previous studies we will have a fair amount of public engagement moving forward we're establishing a business advisory group here in the next few weeks where we want to get give businesses the opportunity to meet early in the morning talk about their particular needs we're also going to be set up to do presentations to interested community groups whether they're businesses or other other interests we can do that pop up meetings where we bring the meetings to where the people are farmers market or something to that effect grocery stores have been pretty effective for us I mentioned the schedule you know we're in the first part of 2020 here we hope to work through much of the visioning for the corridor in 2020 get environmental clearance in 2021 design and move forward with the improvements at ports of savage 2022 so Burnsville that is a important partner in this as we develop the ultimate vision for the corridor we're going to be looking for the city to adopt that so we that's why Jen's been actively involved in our project management team meetings helping to guide the direction of the study because ultimately we want both cities both counties to adopt a plan that can be supported and then go after funding - for improvements so how much funding do we have in place right now or do we just have funding for the study Mali we have funding for the study and the project at Dakota and Yosemite in the city of Savage okay but we need to get funding from Burnsville to 169 we're not looking for funding at this time okay so 2022 is when you're going to have final designs and and advertise for bids for construction so what's what's the process there I mean because I just saw that the federal government is going on another CR so so the project in 2022 it will likely just be the improvements at the ports and there will be other other projects identified in our corridor study and the vision that we'll start parsing out and look for other funding at that point so so we'll be talking about funding for improvement say at Nicollet Washburn Chau and other locations about a year from now is what I'm going to be start talking about implementation those things because we've been talking about Nicollet and chowin for years and Maui so how many more years are we going to talk about Nicolette and shower because they're in Burnsville and I'm interested in Burnsville well one of the the charges that MnDOT gave to us was that make this the last study of highway 13 and we've set this up to study the entire corridor and and to do an environmental assessment for the entire corridor so we can get some environmental clearance for future studies our future pride Jax from Nicollet all the way over to to 169 because you can go into your historical archive and you can see I think it goes back to 2005 when we did when we did the Chowan study or even before that and we've been talking about Nicollet for such a long time I think the goal of this study is like Chris had said for this to be the last time we study it once we in the past we've done studies separate from the environmental clearance which has proven to be challenging so we study it and we decide what we want but then when we start the environmental process we have to start all over and yeah and work through it so the intent of this study is really to look at the full area get the environmental clearance and then start with the first project that we have funded but identify other projects in a sequential order or thresholds which precipitate a project and and allow for the work that we're doing here to be a building block so we we use the information where we're gathering now I'm putting together and then we go after funding for additional projects throughout the corridor as as time progresses so the information you'll have from this study that has to do with the environmental piece is still going to be valid when we move forward it's not that you have to go back and redo the environmental piece that is the intent of this study and we worked very heavily with the Federal Highway Administration FHWA to make sure that the process that we're following will allow that so we're not starting over because it just seems to me like all of this studies we study like the Chowan and the Nicollet and nothing so we spent money on the study and nothing yes then how did the county on five project materialize and just because we just kept at it and and and Scott County was a very good partner and for that we worked collaboratively between between the two counties and then it was Scott County who paid for myself and mayor Williams to go to Washington I think two or three times to lobby for funding he just got that he got the 1 million the first 1 billion and then he and then he was against appropriation yeah you're marking yeah and so that's why we went but the thing is it's the five and thirteen took about 15 years and it started with 13 million and we ended up 43 million Molly is that correct yes right so the thing is the reason why I say this is because it doesn't get better the cost doesn't come down it just goes up and so we've experienced that and so when I look at this in 2022 you're just gonna do your summit Dakota and your summit and then what about Burnsville when do we start that mouth I mean I know you said you have building blocks and I and I won't put you on the spot but you all need to to begin to take a look at that and you looked at that diagram you put up there a lot of your crashes are in in in the Burnsville area on Nicollet between nicola and 35 yeah the reason it only says Dakota Yosemite is is that's because that's the only project that we have committed never signed it that's funded and I can say based on our findings and the purpose of need for our study in our environmental document the the Dakotas Yosemite is is gonna be a small chunk of solving the problem it's going to take you know it's gonna take a lot of the truck congestion out of it but as long as we have some of the signalization that we have on the main line of highway 13 we're gonna have congestion crashes so we can't solve the problems until we start addressing the signals at places like Nicollet and Washburn Lin and Clinton right so this is clearly what we need to do to get this step so we know exactly what it is we're going to be going for but we're gonna have a lot of decisions on what we want to do for prioritization you're gonna hear later tonight County Road 42 mm-hmm the stuff that's gonna come all this is not going to be small dollars and none of the stuff gets done with all local dollars at this point well I'm asking is that do we have to make some trips to Washington - we we need to study to get completed well I know that and then and then we'll know what we're fighting for and then we're gonna have to figure out is is their team gonna be our priority it's kind of a 42 gonna be our priority I mean now we've you know we're doing cliff in 35w that's where he put some improvement dollars towards so we'll have to sit down and do some prioritization on what our next transportation if we can do both awesome but I don't know what the interchange these days I think the locals if you're lucky you're only putting in the third of the cost I mean that's just the nature of the beast this day and age I don't mean you can correctly come wrong but so now I'm not saying that interchange is it's gonna be what's come out of this but we'll be well counsel what I really would want to see happen here Molly and Kristen and Melanie I want to see Nicolette and Chawan on the schedule we're gonna deal with the cost anyway and however that gets done and I know it will be talking about 42 with the county here in the next item but we've got some big issues we can most definitely start bringing that up for through capital improvement playing this year with the Sabina Tudor study it really may make more sense to bring it up more in 2022 as you know as you said it's in it took us how long to get five thirteen it's probably gonna take us there ten at ten years it's just secure the type of funny I mean if we're talking you know forty million dollar projects whatever that's kind of cost ya with the units being near completion and the Tod and the MBTA implementation I would think we'd have some other partners at the table to to make me expedite some of this stuff gets to MnDOT scheduled they had the whole state wasn't met councils the most powerful unit of government this is roads yeah well this is very informative but I think we need to do a lot better and not spend some we spent so much money on studies and we got to get to building and I know it all has to do with the amount of money that comes so everybody get counted because those are the monies that we get from Washington so I'm pitching everybody get counted for the census okay any other thoughts thank you Chris Thank You Molly really appreciate it I look forward to it the next time you guys come in I want to see Burnsville on that project list understood thank you thank you [Music] the next item is Dakota County and mrs. County Road 42 and the visioning study Jen you're going to introduce our oh yes sweetie Council our second item Duggar berry from Dakota County is here to talk about the introduction and let me tell you how many studies have gone through for 42 and then and then the study for 77 for the red line yes madam mayor members of the council um well I will maybe I'll start with something I mentioned a gen as I came in today that we do have a an overlay project that will be under construction next year it's federally funded from the West County line up up to county highway 11 circles through the interchange area and it covers most of Burnsville so it's an extensive overlay and a DA reconstruction project so it goes from the border of savage and burns fell all the way over to 11 yes correct so what you're charging us what forty percent or less because I think you guys change that ordinance if I'm confident in saying it's less yes the federal funding I I'm not sure Jen if you know the numbers on that or so it's my understanding that the city would only be paying for anything related to utility improvements and not part of the paving project yeah because the background says that the county has 85 percent and we have percent that's correct for principle arterials yes like that is that is for the study for the 42 study however but that's this overlay project that I mentioned which is a bit of a sidebar I have to admit is is a primarily federally funded project right so so not much at all in principle participation is needed well thank you Doug okay and then there's the matter of the study [Laughter] [Music] okay I will I will proceed with that the the study will actually address three cities so it begins at the West County border with Savage and then proceeds through Apple Valley and into Rosemont up to highway 52 so it really covers the most heavily traveled parts of highway 42 and it it really is a look after about 20 years at this corridor once again so it the last time this was done it was concluded around around the year 2000 1999 2000 so it was a look ahead to 2020 and here we are we we actually have volumes now that are quite a bit lower than what then the volumes that were forecast 20 years ago which is kind of good news and then also there have there there's always a number of projects that are being programmed and looked at 4:42 so it's it's an ongoing project it you know there's there's continual maintenance of this corridor of course so in 1999 we invested a lot of money to get the streets on the outside of 42 too deep to take traffic off of 42 so we have corporate drive corporate severed senator senator drive from savage all to the shopping center and then on the south side we had preserved that when true savage and out to the Parkway Frank West preserves on the north side but yeah yes that's good yeah that's correct there there were several projects that were implemented or so we try to help to alleviate some of that congestion yeah that was at the West at the west end of the corridor that were not that will now be looking at looking at this current slide again it's a long-range plan for forty two its revisiting it after twenty years we'll be working closely with the communities I'll talk a little later about public engagement aspects of this work we're looking at all modes so one of the the changes in terms of how we look at at a corridor like this now is to be more responsive to looking at pedestrian bicycle issues and I'll make a few more remarks about that when we look at some Burnsville specific issues our intent is to limit roadway expansion I'm not I'm not going to suggest that we won't be looking at new capacity however we we understand the challenges of expanding highway 42 and and so we'll be looking at creative ways to manage traffic as part of this study looking at the Burnsville issues just a couple of points on that of course the center village redevelopment and you'll be hearing tonight a little later about the traffic study associated with that and I've had the opportunity and I appreciate the opportunity to have been a part of that team and work with your staff through that the pedestrian and bicycle issues in this in this redevelopment area are kind of transcendent for this corridor because you don't really have a lot of that type of function out in the Burnsville center area right now so that's kind of an exciting aspect of what's what's being looked at is is to is to create some new environments out there as part of that redevelopment so we'll we'll look at how we can support that as part of this corridor study the other things that I'd like to highlight another mode of course is transit so the orange line extension you'll hear about that as well tonight you have a very full agenda and MBTA issues there is one route one MBTA route of the 444 that has fixed stops on 42 so there's a handful of marked fixed stops on highway 42 and so we'll look at that we'll be looking at the the long-term view in terms of MBTA xinput Metro transit how transit can also function along this corridor so there are some exciting opportunities we think to to take a look at that and some real good opportunities the other thing that might be promising is technology so the use of intelligent transportation systems that's touched on as part of the the village traffic study and will will continue to outline some ideas on that as part of this there are challenges with just simply how people utilize lanes in the in the high-capacity parts of highway 42 so there could be opportunities to to make traffic work better through technology in the future on a number of fronts don't want to forget the other communities I'm here with Burnsville but just briefly as we go through the study that will be part of the dynamic will be having the three cities together talking about these issues in Apple Valley a continued look at intersection signals we get into some more residential type settings there that will be challenging some of those are in Burnsville as well so right I've got that on the slide Burnsville in Apple Valley neighborhoods where the two communities meet in Rosemount new development is really the theme out there there are some challenging infrastructure issues there's a crossing of a railroad and we're working already with Dakota County Technical College on a signal they had one intersection out there so one thing we're interested in doing as part of this is to not dismiss the possibility of just advancing projects as we do the study so this signal is an example of that it's something that needs to be done and we're just moving forward with that project it'll be constructed next year and public involvement there this is a long corridor 15 miles three communities three cities we're just beginning to outline these strategies around this but we're very happy to be working with a team we've got it we've selected a consultant seh they'll be working with us on this one of the things that stood out in their proposal was that they identified some specific opportunities to be where people are already going to be present so pop-up meetings where there are community events and opportunities to engage with with people and let them know what will be happening with this study so we're just just outlining those ideas right now we'll we'll be talking with with your staff later this month about how we're how we're planning for those types of things at the at the outside of the study we're just getting started about a year and a half of study here so before the end of next year we'll become will be concluding this and you can see the on the slide just a a simple outline of the process so the first thing is to make sure we understand the communities and that and that we're looking at priorities then we established broad visions at as we conclude this study the main outcome will be to identify that can be pursued for funding and construction design and and be selective and prioritize so I think for for each of the three cities that will be a great opportunity to to focus we know we we have to understand that we can't do everything at once but we certainly can plan for those top priorities and then move forward where we are right now this is the last slide everything's been moved forward through the through the county process where we're completing the joint powers agreement with the cities that's ad that's in process right now the study will kick off later this month officially with our project management team will assemble a study Advisory Committee and we're looking at specific individuals for that right now and then of course we'll we have a lot of technical work to take a look at forecasts and I kind of mentioned from the outset I'll circle back to it the good news is that traffic has grown less than had been forecast in the past we are completing a major cycle of traffic forecasting in Dakota County right now and it there there's growth there's no question that we've got more traffic but the numbers aren't as as frightening as they once were perhaps so there's still a challenge has been confident that we can we can figure out how to manage those numbers I'll be I'll be happy to take any questions any questions yes thank you and thank you for the presentation can you tell me more about the maps that was attached in her background and what the source of that was oh sure yes that yeah that map is from the proposal that seh submitted and it is a summary of issues that it it's that firms understanding of the court or at very broad strokes is what you've seen there so okay thank you anything else yes that map references 2040 the daily traffic yes yeah yeah retail resonator 2040 comp plan yes soon or a fork at your on the county's forecast yes it I don't have it in front of me but I'm assuming you're referring to maybe some forecast values for traffic yep yeah so so we provided those to consultants who proposed on the project and so they're there I'm bringing that back in their proposal is something to look at because what you're looking at on the 2040 in the Burnsville area it looks at that is that what you're looking at then mm-hmm yeah in the Burnsville area in that 2040 plan and it's fifty nine thousand vehicles yes yeah you've got volumes that are approaching fifty thousand today yeah and there I think it's fair to say they that the forecasts of sixty thousand in the highest segments and that that certainly jump but again it's it's not it's not as high as one might have thought I've been doing this long enough that I can remember 20 years ago that we were looking at some very robust numbers for growth of the Twin Cities metro it looks like Sh did a lot of their due diligence and really looking at the cities throughout their comp plan and how each of these areas are impacted yes I I think it's it reflects well on them in their proposal clearly they were selected for the study and there was a broad agreement that they that they scored well and in the minds of those on the selection committee so that that was a good outcome and we've just started working with our team in in detail and again that's right from the proposal so it's it's just the beginning it's it's they're their first impressions here you forgive me if I missed this in there but how is this study tying in to what we're looking at for possibly altering on and off ramps 435 yeah the the study that that is will be presented of the Burnsville senator village redevelopment and the traffic study associated with it there that that study concluded with some mitigations that's kind of the broad term for traffic and the those ideas represent some capacity needs some movements that can provide some benefit and and it looks at making the the east side ready for redevelopment as well so there's there are some exciting ideas in there as we go through this corridor study we will look at some additional ideas the study will recognize that that projects need to be developed through a process of looking at many alternatives and so there there is at this point a wide range of possible solutions and we are definitely starting with that with that study as as an informative backdrop for how we would begin this this work good Kyra it's good that you remember that piece okay because I would like to make it clear that council council has not decided what options we're going to do if any and while we have the vision of that drawn up as a possibility a we don't own the property and be we as a council have not allocated to move forward on that so I throw out that caution on the McAndrews on that yeah so this idea that that's a big caution in that whole area that it it may be wishes and dreams right now but we have not moved forward on that so I do caution on that and I do caution especially on those ramps so Marin council may be a spoiler but we have not proceeding with McAndrews ramps based on your feedback thank you working on to complete Doug has been part of that and and we're gonna present concepts that mitigate and and then all of those ideas do need to be further studied further vetted it'll give you high-level cost estimates of what it will take to get there in item number four but Doug and the county have been part of that and will be part of their studies it'll go in hand excellent I like hearing that and I'm glad Kara that you remember that issue because all of us were not really in favor of the McAndrews ramps we heard it so you've got some ideas for for all of that to take place on the County Road 42 corridor and and not impact any of our residential area that yes yes madam mayor members of the council we we are excited with the outcomes of that study and we yeah we discussed at a staff level that not including the ramps of McAndrews was kind of the baseline for how to proceed with a mitigation package so I was talking very general terms before about what that mitigation was but but the recommendations of the study tend to focus on other other elements and there is there is more capacity needed on 42 in places so probably not too shocking to hear that and and there are some other great ideas that that are reflected in that study thank you thank you okay great any other questions for dad no thank you so much for coming in and giving us the update under studying and and then when you're going to proceed so you'll be back I'm sure you don't have you okay thank you okay the next item is the Dakota County Orange Line extension presentation and Regina I believe you're going to be introducing our guests from the county good evening mayor members of the council so today I have Joe Morneau by my side with Dakota County Transportation um he'll go over the presentation with you but I do want to say this is a study that started in 2017 Dakota County graciously put it on hold so that we could complete our work with the center village yeah redevelopment vision and so they picked it back up and we're looking at next steps for implementation so Joe now and thank you Joe and then I'm sure that this is one that Met Council is very much a part of because they haven't made that decision with regard to that the County Road 42 Orange Line stop okay thank you yep towards the end we will have an asked to council for a resolution of support that if you are supportive yeah and I saw that then we'll bring forward to a future City Council meeting yeah and then you'll have well give you a presentation Joe and we'll have questions because thank you thank you Mary Carson doing good evening council members I'm so as Regina know now I walked through the process here that we took as well as some of the draft recommendations but before we talk about another study I want to talk briefly about phase one or enzyme which is which is going on right now the 35w works so that's 12 station pairs two of those Chris Nicolette Avenue in Burnsville Parkway and so far everything is on time and on schedule with the project so we're still expecting a December 20 21 2021 operations startup so that's that's looking good for the extension itself the in the regional plans orange line is runs a little further than just a phase one it goes down the quarter goes down to Lake though so what we study was a possibility for additional stations I'm at a minimum two but even even going a little bit beyond that so we identified the Burnsville center mall area as well as Lakeville around the area of the Kenrick park and ride for additional studies based on some additional discussions we looked at the possibility of a few others near 50 60 70 as well as near Crystal Lake Road the study management we had all the cities involved so Ryan and Regina put in a lot of work on the technical advisory committee and project management team we also had the lake though there of course MnDOT Met Council Metro Transit an MBTA to provide input on all the technical work and make some make some study decisions for us so very briefly I'll talk to these study components before we for the first floor on here were in the whole time public involvement evaluation for stations operating operating and routing needs and then capped operations costs partway into the study we did we did add a little bit more rigorous process to analyze ridership given that this is a new corridor for transit service for all-day transit service and particularly high level we needed to have a good idea of how how that would perform and when to when to make the call on the service extension here so as regina noted we did have a couple of breaks within this study we actually did about 14 months of work between mid 2017 and eight twenty nineteen the the last six or seven months or so was focused mainly on that ridership estimation and then some project wrap-up so the public involvement we had targeted meetings we had a lot of focus on those as well as some online online engagement that's proven you know this study as well as other county projects to be a little bit more effective in terms of getting feedback but we also did have some traditional open houses as well with in Burnsville we we had some outreach at the burnses Center Mall did some on board with the local routes as well as a few events like the fire muster back in 2017 so talking about the the birds'll Central Station this this was one of the more one of the more tricky tasks within the study given how how dynamic the situation is here there's different different needs to address one is access to a station for both pedestrians as well as transit riders in the local routes and how we accommodate a connection there rotting in operations in a particularly high traffic area was was a concern figuring out where we're out and how to get on to and off of 35w and then potential changes to the area of course we expectation is at the mall will be undergoing this you know significant changes as well as areas north of kasaa 42 so trying to anticipate that the best we can provide some flexibility in our recommendations and concepts was was key here and then understanding what service demand would be based on some of those changes to the area and whether we're looking at a more more emphasis on residents residents in the area are you gonna see the same number of him same amount of employment or is that gonna go up or down so that's that's pretty pretty crucial to understanding what what the demand will be for for service so what we did given the uncertainties we developed a few different concepts for stations are general our general preference though was to have a station if you on the map there on the north side to the west side of of them also between Dick's Sporting Goods and um Macy's in that general area where you see the park in parking lot that would be the best for MBTA rioters that would provide likely given future plans the best connection to the north of kasaa 42 if that's you know at grade intersection or we were looking at something great separated as is noted in the plan so we did develop two general concepts based on the based on a couple possible changes to the to the interior of the interior of the mall property one is about one the one on the left is about one acre this provides ample room for orange line operations as well as local operations and another consideration is if this is a terminal station there will be more facilities for layover for the drivers at this at this location it also allows for a car for people to arrive and depart by car - and has a separate turnaround lean for for those for those riders video the concept on the right is for a more constrained area that one on the left is about one acre this one on the right would be about half an acre and would have a much a little bit a little bit of a sooner profile closer to the street but would still be able to accommodate all those operations for for buses both Orange Line and local one thing to note here with with this with this station there's no expectation in the present or future of any express buses that's particularly that generates particularly high traffic we we sense that that wouldn't be the right fit for the for the Burnsville for the further for the centered village vision and much of the much of the much of the demand for Express service can be you know facilitated at both Kenner Academy Park and I didn't burn Seoul Transit Center and it's sort of foreseeable future now comes my bikini well that that comment got my attention because with the redevelopment of Burnsville Center as we see there's a significant high density of residential development that's gonna go in there of folks that are quite possibly gonna be looking for an express bus into downtown or either downtown today your statement is absolutely true I mean we did there isn't any really but I would say that there's far more likely that there will be a lot when that development comes to fruition and you see multi level higher than four level probably mixed-use developments going in where there's currently a stir and we're gonna see that sort of express bus demand come online now that may be serviced by MBTA as opposed to in that council Tran you know Metro Transit per se but this I think the design or at least the thought of how this might be designed I think has to embrace that possibility is very distinct in the future then we can move that done that that could could bear out to be true I the I think some of the questions here though who is with I think just the decisions without allocating between some of the stations and the other one out might might be a challenge in them also the challenge of providing Park and right if if this is you know if this is would be a higher level of service people would look to also access from a broader area and that would be a that would be a challenge the one other thing to consider here too is for people walking to the service and from the immediate area this service might be seen as pretty comparable to express service I won't I don't recall the the travel time from this station to downtown but I know from from Burnsville transit station it's gonna be about 14 or so minutes longer than Express so it's longer but it's still reasonable and it will would be every you know in the rush rush hour every 10 winters would be about the same as I I'm just interested in seeing how the study as you go along and really evaluate all of evaluate our plan and how all of that will materialize in terms of what the implementation of that corridor is gonna look like the transit we did I'll get to that in a few moments we we accounted for that in our ridership modeling and and did a higher higher development scenario as far as what we expected what we expect for development we didn't get too far into detail as far as some of what was done with the provisioning process so all the talk to just briefly on the kenric station we had a few few similar challenges access for both pedestrians and drivers was was a consideration understanding where the BRT platform would be in the facility and what would need to change there and then also would this necessarily drive any changes to to capacity at Kendrick Park & Ride currently today it's at 70% use it's been been that since about the opening but but additional service or orange line service may may change that in the future and then the question of expected service demand of course this is a high demand for Express service in the area there's not much local so there's not really any precedent there for us to to understand what what demand would be for a service like BRT for the routing we we looked through a handful of different combinations for forgetting to getting to and from the stations assuming we go go down to Ken Rick we would we would route the buses once it goes from Burnsville Center we would go down to Crystal Lake Road and we found that to be a good deal a good deal faster getting on to getting getting back to 35w near the Burnsville center molarity given given the traffic so we are when we go down to Ken Rock Avenue we we assume a turn around at because South 50 this leaves open the possibility of of an additional station at at Cassatt 50 which would be in terms of operations pretty cost neutral and we could we could we could fit a smaller station in there as far as what we what we developed for rotting the s the estimation for additional fleet for these for the service would be about one to two additional buses to operate to just burns low center mall to Kendrick Park and Ride we would require four to five of the shell buses for the orange line fleet so for Phase one they're looking at 11 buses total just for that section so as I noticed regina noted there was some questions again as far as what we can expect for ridership in the quarter given that given that this is new service and again a very high level of service we we stopped the study for a short while to to address this question and then came up with a plan to cooperate with Metropolitan Council and and update their ridership model to factor in this service and and get a get an understanding of whether this is whether it meets coming in the regional expectations for service for BRT they have they have a set of standards for for BRT for light rail for community commuter rail to help guide this process and processes that are similar to this so what we had done was we had created three scenarios one for the present day 2020 looked out at 2040 projections based on some of the updated comprehensive plans and then we also looked at a higher development scenario for 2040 assuming that there's that there is some redevelopment in and around the Burnsville center mall area so I'm going by station here Burnsville Center and I'll focus on the burnt essential station here it for the year 2020 we would if service was operating today based on demand and just the general characteristics of the area we'd be looking at about 220 to 240 boardings per weekday for 2040 just based on unadopted plans we'd be looking at a few dozen more riders per day upwards of 290 boardings per weekday looking at a higher development scenario we were looking at about 500 boardings per day so a couple considerations just for the redevelopment what's commonly seen for estimating transit demand is that employment will tend to generate more demand versus residential so given that you know there's a lot of employment there today you know there's as we know there's there's more residential I think the big wild card is how much employment stays within this area when we look out a couple of decades and if there's a lot that may that may hold you know more promise then then then seen some the residential growth in the area so Joe and Regina when you're doing this study are you looking at reverse commute miracles yes that that is factored and so employment including this area you see you know more if we see what's existing you know the service will account for people traveling you know from from north of the river down down here so it's it's in both directions because I think that's important talent is a big shortage and we want to make sure that we retain what we have and also to attract new talent and if we're going to attract new talent they may come from north of the river to help our businesses get at full capacity for the talent that they need so I think reverse commute for this part and especially also down at the heart of the city that that reverse commute is factored in and that's a I think that's a key for success for for trans way services like this suffocate it can't be you know based on just the predominant things are the you know commuting to downtown it's it's gonna be running all day you know both directions and it needs to we need to see demand you know kind of commensurate with that because in some of the studies that you're doing you're also Regina and Joe talking to some of our large employers like like Collins the hospital Pepsi Pepsi is pretty steady they didn't yeah we have had touch points with Collins aerospace and with the medical campus as well and certainly they do see this as an asset for their employees and definitely have been engaged ok good thank you so one of the more key metrics that's used in the region for you know for for articulating demand is passengers per service hour so that's just a measure of efficiency for how many people get on the bus for every area are that that bus is out in the street and in service if we were to look at just the the section between Burnsville Parkway and Burnsville Central Station and based on this ridership we were expecting about nine boardings per per additional hour of service in 2020 if if we look at the section between Burnsville between the Burnsville Central Station and the Kendrick Park and Ride at six boardings we're estimating six boardings per additional hour of service out there so we were in this study we also considered we did kind of some higher higher level estimates of some of the stations down in in Lakeville and they typically did not did not bear out as well because those are again again the demand is is pretty light the accessibility is an issue and people are typically typically looking for Express service straight to downtown none of the intermediate stops so those ones we left off a little bit earlier in the study so for the so going back to those those numbers up top as well as the efficiency the the efficiency metric of passengers burns surfaces are the regional standards that regional guidelines rather that that have been developed are looking for typically but you know 200 boardings or more per station and then looking at for an entire line boardings passengers per service are a measure of 25 boardings per service hour or more so the critical criteria is that we will get funding merrick outs the these won't be used for any funding decisions what we're what we're we're anticipating for for funding this we're not looking at pursuing federal funds in the new starts process which is what some of the light rail projects in the first part of Orange Line hit are funded through we be looking at County funds as well as some federal funds through the regional solicitation that's our that's our that's what we're anticipating right now and as when you say regional standards so I'm wondering you both how do they get plugged in and when we're looking at the Met Council to be a partner you know they'll want to consider this as far as you know understanding what what level service is appropriate it's not as strict these are these are more guidelines and a standard and and we're you know where will where do easily have a place in the conversation you know with with Met Council when we look to implement the you know this this is the service I think it'll be you know one of handful of considerations as far as just connections to it's an area as far as and then the populations that we're serving and they their needs in level of dependency so those are those are gonna be other other things to consider as well but it will be it will be something under consideration all right yeah well with the PRT coming out of Lakeville stop at the burns come all the way from Kendrick - yeah burn so Center any of the buses coming out Lake will actually stop in Burnsville or they will they just go all the way through so the orange line so on the orange line the the terminal station would in when one scenario would be the kenric park-and-ride coming northbound they would they would come - they would come to the burns of Central Station and then it was okay phase one - so everybody thank you each triple each station and that's important to Lakeville that they can get two burns both vertical centers important to Lake fly or the other day at a meeting son well they also be stopping then and the parkway 35w interchange station yes yep so BRT service they'll all be using don't make no stops through all of the BRT service line correctly - okay so the that back going back to the measures here so the it's a well we estimated for these for the extension stations is a little bit low compared to the compared to the the standard for productivity for for the line the the overall performance including phase one though even with the extension stations is pretty high it's it's close to about a hundred and 118 so there's there's a couple questions out there so of course there's you know whether we want to focus on just the increment and understand what the efficiency is there or we want to look at the effect it has on the whole line the question - for Kennick park-and-ride what we saw from the ridership estimation is that it's almost entirely to downtown and not to any of the intermediate stations so it's BRT the answer for for the for residents in Lakeville and then there's a little bit of uncertainty just with the estimation process it's a little a little bit more vague in suburban areas and then also a little bit a little bit of uncertainty given that this is a new new corridor for first service other than Express so moving on to the recommendation what we've developed as a as a group through this process is to recommend for an extension of the orange line to to surf Brazil Central Station but that that recommendation is conditional in a couple of things one is understanding the the pace in the nature of redevelopment and the timing at burns of Central Station in the mall and then worth of 42 and under understanding kind of where you know when we see concrete steps for for real redevelopment there and if that that may may be an area that that can warrant a higher level of service and then to is understanding the performance of the orange line the phase one once that begin service in 2021 there's still a little bit of as I know there's some uncertainty with the extension and knowing the ridership there but there's still some uncertainty as far as the phase one as well in addition to that one one other thing that may be an indication is some new service that MBTA will be implementing near that either start at Orange Line that will connect Burnsville Central brinjal Center Mall to Burnsville transit station and roughly follow that same path alone on 35w and that may also give us some understanding of demand in the area so in in totally I think there's just a little too too many moving parts and with respect to some demand and development in the area to to make a definite call on on extending today but maybe in three four five years from now we may have a better better ability to make it as and as as a County and with the cities and as a region one thing that we are not recommending I'm in in the near and medium term is service to Kendrick Park and rights so that just based on the efficiency and then just the overall travel market and then the potential for reverse can be we don't see that necessarily driving the need for a BRT service any any time in the new your midterms yeah I see a correlation between the work that you're doing in the work that Doug's doing with the study of the 42 corridor and then what you want to implement with regard to BRT Mira cosets that that's key because because of the mobility improvements especially for pedestrians yeah is gonna be very important here so the you know it's a challenge for anybody to cross 42 today and making sure that safer people will help help help help extend the usability of transit very briefly the just going on to the where we're moving on from here so we we've wrapped up all of the you know technical work at the end of last year in the near future I'll be the Connie will be seeking resolutions as a port from both burns alam Lakeville al p supply mariejeanwilson draft recommend a resolution language there and then later on this year will be we'll be seeking an amendment to the transportation policy plan to get this programmed and recognized at a regional level and then as I noted before in in future years we'll want to monitor and understand how the first you know first phase of Orange Line performs and see how that how that might give us some indication that one to pursue an extension any questions for Joe and Regina absolutely oh yeah right I would just like to comment that this is what we would hope for that they're gonna wait until development happens we don't wanna put the station the wrong spot and then maybe the councilmember Gustafson's question without those stationed at Kendrick there won't be a stop just so you're clear no I get that okay [Music] okay all right yeah and and of course members of the council when the time comes that we need to put a resolution I think this is something that we need to get done so that the Met Council understands that we're we want them to be on board with this I mean it's an outcome okay so Melanie when the time is ready okay is there anything else you need from us yo that's all for tonight thank you and I want to thank you and Regina and Doug and everybody from the county for your partnership and the work that we do together just serve the people that that we're here to serve our residents and businesses yes thank you so much okay the center village traffic study in this is Sam gen so it's good to see you and Brenda back and I think you heard from us so Jen yeah so Marin Council we're back tonight with some final recommendations before we prepare the final study document so Brandon's gonna go through briefly kind of what we're done to date and then get into more details on the actual mitigation measures just to keep in mind these are at a concept level not a detailed design level further study will be needed and there'll be a lot of partnerships that we need both with MnDOT and Dakota County so as we're going through with this is a study that will need to have additional detail worked out in the future thank you so the first 10 slides will keep pretty sorry pretty brief they're somewhat review so there's several goals of the study and it's really to get an understanding building off of the vision what the impacts of both background growth transit and impacts of the redevelopment will be on the surrounding roadway network and ultimately develop several concepts or developed concepts and ultimately some phasing and estimates to allow for future planning and programming in a plan to move forward this is basically the study approach so we'll end up ultimately developing those forecasts analyzing existing and future and develop mitigation measures the study area is bounded by Portland to the east making andrews on the north v on the west and south cross on the south with really the center beat the Burnsville center and the interchanges of 35 e in 35 w along 42 roughly there's 36 intersections in the study existing conditions everybody is aware that a lot of the primary congestion is allowing 42 which is the black box and the yellow circles represent intersections that have higher crash higher than expected crash rates given their characteristics we went through a process building off what Dakota County has done to develop our background growth so they have their travel demand model so we use that along with good counts that we collected at the Burnsville Center to get an idea of what's going on today and understand what that background growth would be and then we did work building enough some of the orange line related planning an idea what transit might change so we've increased what we might see today of 1.5 percent up to 3 percent ultimately reducing vehicles I'm going to present some level of service graphics those graphics are based on you've seen these metrics before basically how many seconds of delay per vehicle uncivilised generally have lower thresholds and signalized because people are used to sitting a little bit longer at a signal and generally we characterize ease and F's is being undesirable this is overall intersection level of service so that's not to say this is just for the PM peak we kind of a.m. is less intense Saturday's kind of has its own differences where it's more intense but as kind of a baseline we focus a lot of p.m. even though we analyzed all of it and so this shows overall level of service so this is not to say there aren't some movements that have level of service a and F but at this planning level it makes some sense to present this way so you've seen overall we have one intersection of that level of service D it's a southbound 35e wrap the other ones like I say you'll see some movements that have challenges but really what's important is kind of the change between what we see at an existing level and what we see in 2040 with just background growth and no mitigation so the next slide basically shows with that background growth along 42 no trips being added for the center Village redevelopment vision which we focused by 2040 on the south side in the mall area that there's just a continued deterioration line 42 where we see a lot of overall intersections level services eased ease you do see movements no action along McAndrews so there's some background issues there's some some challenges more on the side streets at Irving and burn Haven making the left and then County Road five and Vicki Andrews there's some challenges ultimately they're anticipated in the future so that's something that's really more of a focus of some corridor study that the county and the city would work forward a lot of the county because as a county road developing some solutions there so that's without this vision and so then we built off what was done and all the good work that was done as the vision we estimated the number of anticipated trips and so basically it was about eighteen thousand four hundred trips to the site today the mall area the anticipated increase based on growth would be an additional 20,000 so it's about a 200% increase in traffic and based on that we end up saying okay we already know that no build there's some issues and last time we talked a little bit about some mitigation so now we're gonna kind of dive into some things that are a little bit dear at this location we kind of step back because everybody when we started to look at some of the things that we've presented at a high level last time at 42 it's like well are things different here compared to some of the other regional malls and this not to dwell on every volume but there's really kind of a couple characteristics you see a lot of the malls around here on the right Southdale Rosedale Eden Prairie on the left is principal and what you'll see is those are generally served by two interchanges on different roadways for example Rosedale has county rural or Fairview and snowy at b2 Burnsville basically you'll see there's a lot of traffic and nine thousand verses 23 got it yep I'm both France and Fairview yes so what this shows is exactly the fact that you Doug mention it before you're approaching 40,000 I County Road 42 you've only got you know 10,000 roughly or less on your other roads you look at some of the other malls and it's a lot more equally distributed and so that's some of where you'll see improvements and there's a lot of focus 942 just because there aren't other places to relieve the traffic and the two interchanges you have are both serving the same Road so this was kind of interesting because it helps show why things are a little different we then drove into future mitigation and there were three primary goals that we looked at we wanted to make improvements in our multimodal so we've discussed before addition of trails we'll do that again pedestrian connection under 42 we wanted to provide a similar level services today because we know there's some challenges so we wanted to make sure that Saturday that things aren't just going up and down the interstate and people actually are able to visit the site in p.m. we wanted to make sure things didn't deteriorate too much but we weren't design need everything to be a and B you know there's gonna be some congestion at a busy area so from a mitigation standpoint it kind of the strategy I'm gonna walk through with layout the layout that's been broke kind of into three chunks but this kind of talks a little bit about how we thought about the order if you want to start mitigation less and then build on it and so we wanted to build up the vision that was kind of big thing and then we looked at transit and pedestrian improvements so we have the sidewalks or the trails and underpass and then when we looked at roadway improvements we started a little more easy stuff hey let's do some adjustments to signal timings and you can see as we go down the list things kind of build where is there one critical intersection that cause a lot of issues that we can fix are there places we can add dual turn lanes that improve things and ultimately get more toward the bottom and we've got additional connections to interstates which we aren't doing a connection at McAndrews but that's stuff that we had talked about at a very high level and got the good input to say we're not doing that so that's off the table but it was part of the early discussions and ultimately we developed an ITF solutions like variable message signs at the bottom so ultimately before we we had some higher level improvements and we've developed a concept drawing that has more detail related to lanes with you know right away impacts and what I've got is basically three that are showing so this is kind of the West Side burn Haven is on the west and I'm gonna explain a little bit the overview of kind of the improvements that are included here so along both the north on the south side we've got 10-foot trails so there's improvements where there's locations now that are sidewalks so the purple are the trails the blue is the boulevard in terms of there's a three-quarter intersection between Aldridge and burn Haven so that's been converted to a right in right out just to the east of that you can see a Purple Line in the orange under past which has been laid out more like a bridge so it's not like a box culvert where it's tight and confined and can be intimidating a little bit scary that's more 50 feet wide it would have some option to have some openings to let some light in and be more inviting for pedestrian the reason why there's the magnitude of yellow is on the West End there's basically we've added turn lanes dual turn lanes at burn heaven we've added an eastbound dual turn lane at Aldrich there's already one westbound so you're kind of utilizing the left turn space at the current three quarters to provide dual left turn lanes and ultimately at the righty and going the right outgoing eastbound from the mall we add an additional lane that would carry through to the east and ultimately would become a lane that would drop at 35w north so we're adding Lane eastbound westbound we're not adding Lane but by the time you jockey the road around and get things to fit you're pretty much reconstructing the road at least at this stage from a planning level the connection I'm going to talk more through the aldrich extension through the site but it's a four lane roadway the volumes anticipated on that are about fourteen thousand vehicles per day it's laid out as a with a wide median so there can be plantings and we'll show some other examples of that this is kind of a whole separate section but those in kind of a overview of what is shown on this page so are there questions because it's a lot of detail Melanie I was just asking Jenna I wonder if do you have a pointer that we can use during the discussion yeah yeah because so when you're talking Aldridge is Aldridge this won't work if I do the red yeah it does so it's the blue and the yellow going north and south that's Aldrich correct that's that's Aldrich so that's what is thinking that's Aldrich right there right here yes and currently and that's where the cul-de-sac is going to be go my left your right with a pink pink pink and the orange right there that's the underpass yes so that's what and I'm looking are we how many lanes are we adding I was trying to count how many lanes will all be one additional Lane eastbound in this segment so it would go from three lanes to a four lane section between there right out over it to the interchange with 35w under the north on the west side of Aldrich you have quite a few lanes and then when you're going you cross Aldrich then it goes now to like four lanes you have two lanes or left turn lanes yeah I see that but I didn't see it real well but I can see that here yeah okay so there are two two left turn lanes and then there are two right turn lanes right is that what you had single right turn lane a single verse for through lanes so there should be seven seven of croch lanes there yep today there would be a single left turn lane yeah three three lanes on a right turn lane so we're adding one throughly and we can were converting it from a single left eastbound to a dual lefties bone okay westbound at that same intersection is already two lanes making a left a westbound left behind Aldridge so that exists and really there's the same lanes going westbound it's yellow more just by the time you shift some of the lanes to get them to line up to accommodate that additional eastbound lane there's just pavement that needs to be reconstructed and where you have 42 it is right there that's that's burn Haven because I was going to say that and that has basically the additional left turn lanes eastbound and westbound that's the biggest change there there's duel laughs and now they're singles under today's existing conditions okay any other thoughts no no it's because when you're looking at it and you see all of these lanes and you're saying okay you're gonna cross over no it's no - okay today you can make a left in yeah and you this would not allow that so it becomes that's a 3/4 that we're talking about now it's a right in right out on both sides and the median goes through so this to keep everybody on their toes I've got the page rotated so North is on your left I already talked generally about what's kind of going on to the west of the southbound ramps so basically we're carrying that additional through lane through to ultimately tie in and drop at the 35w northbound ramps and the way we do it we don't have to impact the pavement on the bridge that was just done the live words we have shown an additional lane basically additional choice when we call it Gore as you exit southbound 35w where you can exit carry up to 42 or you can go under 42 the gain access to the the east side of the redevelopment area this is similar to what we have shown today or in the past as you exit we've converted at the top the better mitigation right then McAndrews so this way okay there's a triple left turn coming southbound to eastbound so right now there's a dual left turn and that's a roundabout up at the top of the ramp there's gonna be three left's yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah currently there's two left turns yeah and then there is a change and we talked about this last time we'll talk about a little bit more but on the south side we're only showing the dual FCN so you're going to west and you're able to turn into the site with a double left and then we're basically showing a northbound dual right so the left turn would get redistributed or relocated to another location so we'll talk a little bit more about what kind of volumes were anticipating with that you would travel under the bridge and travel to a roundabout we're showing the dotted lines that's basically where the vision connections are so obviously there can be some adjustments and additional details as more of what is actually placed at each location occurs but the roundabouts basically serves them main access into the proposed redevelopment and that would carry to the south and tie to Buck Hill Road it's a better mitigation strategy the axe is basically just to make it clear that that connection is basically severed and it basically reroutes through the kind of the exterior northeast corner of the site yeah kara so are you saying where that where it's xed that road will be ripped up yes that's Buck Hill Road right now right yeah so this will remain will continue on it's that one piece right there where you have the Kara so if a person is in town and they're east how are they getting to Buck Hill if they're traveling from the east going west you're from Apple Valley going into Savage they I mean basically they would go west they would take a left at the dual left herd and go in here yeah take a left there and they turn and circulate to get back to the roundabout okay such the challenge of having all the connections are with the roundabouts you can't have the two legs come together you know like a 20 degree separation self some of it is to have this access come off and go under we have to provide some geometry to get them to tie into the roundabout and you just to have another one go right here just as prohibitive because you can't get the roundabout layout to work geometrically with that one-way ramp coming off so there are more questions we do have another slide a little bit where we'll talk a little bit about volumes and what that means you know their option for that person is to come 35v get on 35 be coming from the east and exit off at 160th which is actually faster to get the bucket right but even if here even if you're traveling from the other direction if you're on if you are on 40 - yeah you can get off at view by also you want to get to where you need to jump off drive through them all hit the roundabout hop back onto the road okay yeah the other is that if you're coming from Apple Valley and wanting to go to Buck Hill you can get off on Plymouth to Grande and then you can get right over to Buck Hill Road and goes go south one thing that will be talked about later is some of that I TS electronic wayfinding signage yeah yeah and so there's always options to get people around with electronic signage and and static signage so I mean I just my apologies so I just have to so the idea of Center Village is to be less motorized and people walk around and it's park-like and so instead we dump people into it to drive to get back onto that road I think we have some more detail on that coming up in some future slides okay we kind of Zone in on the center village and then the traffic going through there okay all right proceed any questions I'm going to talk about what's kind of in the what would be your upper right side on the next slide so I any questions I guess on the cellphone connections more on the west side probably you'll get more once you get into the next slide so this section the things that really change is we have got basically a westbound lane that's added pretty much just to the east of the note that northbound rap on 30 to go into 35 B and that carries through Nicollet and basically ends going on to up at the 35w ramp northbound so we got one additionally and that carries through it and ends up dropping at the northbound ramp to get under 35 W because there's a heavy volume there there is an eastbound lane that's added just to the east of the bridge deck of 35 W and so we had an additional lane and that basically carries through Nicollet and then ultimately with the lanes being realigned there ends up being a lane that dropped at the northbound ramp onto 35 e so e spawned to northbound that's where the lane ends up disappearing so we don't have a bunch of yellow to the east of the northbound ramps and then the other detail here I mean we do carry the trails along you know both sides of the roadway and then that's really the bulk of it there is one change more in operations that we're showing right now at Nicollet northbound traffic goes and then southbound traffic goes and there's ped phases tied to each nickel it becomes a challenging intersection because you have so much volume north then south in east and west and so we do have a ped phase where we would basically have all the peds cross on the west leg just to allow the ped phase to come up with the southbound traffic instead of doing it both northbound and southbound because it just ends up being a challenge that can basically process that much traffic through the intersection if the ped phases always and so you can serve the ped's on the one side and that's kind of a way we were able to maintain operations through here any questions on this slide so basically Adaline west bond for a chunk a Dulaney east bond for a chuck and then there's the phasing adjustment at Nicollet in a building often tying to what Jen mentioned there's variable message signing intelligent transportation systems that have been used successfully at the mall of america this is a an example of that they have a similar system installed near Canterbury office I 83 in Shakopee Canterbury downs the concept here would be to install sides so this could be expandable and scalable as you know maybe Billy enough some of what the 42 vision does but we have signs that basically would take traffic and you could be able to route it where assault cross connects to the east at 42 and you could have some signs when it's busy to basically say alternative route to route people through south cross and ultimately yeah for two reasons one to bypass if they're just through trips and the other to actually access them all from the south so not everybody is accessing it from 42 well way back when South Cross and McAndrews were designed it was to take traffic off of 42 so you you the locals know to take south cross and on the weekends or McAndrews and and that's that's good this ties together the red line is basically some interconnect improvement so you could coordinated operate it so like fiber connections and controller upgrades so we've assumed some of that in the estimate looking at the volumes that go through this is an improvement that I think could take some pain off at the peak periods but some of these you're not going to implement this one and avoid some of the infrastructure it just won't remove enough in traffic so just this is the this is similar to what we had before but this basically looks at the p.m. with the mitigation we just walked through and the development traffic so this has the background growth the redevelopment and before you'll remember under existing condition there was one yellow D here there's four yellow DS but as a whole most of its green this is kind of where we started with the one yellow D under existing conditions this is basically without any other site traffic without any mitigation and so what we're showing here we are comfortable with the fact that hey it's it's basically getting us to a place that's similar to the day there's quite a bit of mitigation but it's similar to today but it's also conveying a lot of traffic so that was kind of the punchline of these three slides we have done some planning level estimates so the estimates here are we've kind of broke the project into several areas we've got from what kind of a phasing and logical chunk perspective there's area one that is kind of farthest to the east area which is basically from 35w to the east area to would be kind of 42 right in front of them all from the southbound raps west areas three we isolated the salt bond wrap and then area four we just basically broke out the pet bridge and so the cost that you see there include some estimates it right away some contingency 20% contingency is some direct costs but as you look at it it's a certainly a significant project where some of that collaboration end of being important important that's today's no we're going to we're going to need TIF to help mitigate some of that cost well end forty-two would be if we partner with the county it's an 85 15 split they have to agree to these types of improvements and working with their study process and we would be you know looking for outside funding sources for all of these armaments grant opportunities like you're all familiar with you know you all need to make sure that you update this these estimates as we go along because you're only giving us today's dollars and all of us know that every year it goes by those costs are going to go up and the cost of labor isn't going down and I've seen those cost and all the other stuff learned fibers manager so just from a phasing perspective we did do a little bit of looking at kind of the initial potential phase or if the things would redevelop on the east side and what projects made the most sense to occur very area ones pretty critical and unfortunately that happens to be farther from the site yeah area one is critical to get people to and from I'm gonna yeah dan beam that we're talking about funding this project so the the county cost participation right now is 85 percent County 15 city mm-hmm and then you would partner together to try and reduce that so that there's outside funding sources this is this is only the study will be 85% of that thirty six could be County money yeah the I TS system wouldn't be included and the area three would be on the MnDOT system yeah so it'd be area 1 and 2 that would be partnered with then the state would be part of it right okay yeah I think the funding sources would be good for us to understand all that and I think that the 85/15 is under study correct [Music] yeah you can't speak to federal funding Jen one thing we're looking with the study is as a jumping-off point to be looking at looking for those alternate funding sources so at the end we'd be asking for council to adopt the study so that we can take it as a council approve study to then go in dive in deeper for funding sources okay but area one we go first ideally because that was needed to process traffic kind of timing wise yeah area two and three there's some flexibility as to which one would occur first an area for is out there area four is out there but it certainly would be nice to do as part of area two but these all cost money so I mean it's just you'd be impact in 42 times so so we did I did mention we discussed a little bit more some of the internal roadways and we really focused that it just kind of an initial level what Aldrich would would look like so basically I mentioned before is if you're talking about 14,000 vehicles a day we do have some turn lanes to the north so we'll flip for the next page and look at that we basically showed the other connections as part of the vision those were the dotted lines that you've gotten to see a little bit of there's obviously gonna be some refinement as more details understood about the development as to how things feel where the intensity is and there's some a couple similar examples of roads like this and I think are important one of them Nicolette Avenue in the heart of the city and then there's 16th Street in a West End so this is just kind of looking more zoomed in at the center of the layout so we're basically showing a four-lane roadway all the way from the north and it runs all the way through to the south we're showing a wider median so it would allow for plantings and some left turn lanes we're not showing a bunch of right turn lanes because there's a balance as to how wide you want to make everything with pedestrians this access just based on where at this stage based on the turn lanes are about 300 feet long which is they feel log based on the site but it's we run into them all the time so we've got longer turn lanes and because this connection is in the influence area those were showing this as a right in right out obviously as the vision shapes and there could be there could be some changes to that but at this point with what I know today it would be challenging to have people turn left here those are kind of the biggest points I had here any questions on this slide that I'll show a couple of screenshots of examples this is one you're all very familiar with this conveyed about fifteen thousand six hundred vehicles a day to make sure I'm not lying fifteen thousand eight hundred vehicles a day we were talking fourteen thousand on the last slide it's a four-lane roadway this happens of both left and rights here's a west end which is kind of an interesting one where it's the shopping area up at st. mark this is a four-lane roadway it's got some enhanced pedestrian features like rectangular flashing beacons at the crossing it's got Boulevard trees and there's certainly things you can do from an urban design landscaping standpoint to certainly make it more of a place make it feel certainly less intense and so this is something that that roadway could look like as things are developed and the vision continues to move forward and so if I get to speak to the need for a wider aldrich it's when we talked about how many vehicles are going to be circulating inside the redevelopment area it's significant means somewhat of that backbone or spine major roads through the site then the white dashed lines would be more the smaller streets that we kind of were talking about but this aldrich extension would you a main road this is the slide that I wanted to discuss a little bit that talks a little bit about where some of the last time we chatted there was quite a bit of discussion about the northbound traffic on Buck Hill Road so so basically there's traffic now where you would normally would go northbound today you would drive through and you connect right to the intersection right and so we have shown that okay as part of this concept you've got a roundabout where you travel into the internal but exterior roadway of the network you drive to the north if you wanted to go right and you'd come up and take a right okay the right turns yeah usually the skirts on the outside yeah the laughs are really ok where do the left's go because the left's aren't accommodated by that and what are the magnitude so basically the volumes that I show here basically 14 roughly 14 thousand vehicles here fourteen thousand six here's fourteen thousand and the sixteen thousand eight are basically they anticipate to be the volumes on those three roadways in 2040 so they're there in the neighborhood of 50 percent or 150 percent of the day or double depending on the roadway this is generating quite a bit more traffic so that's a lot of what's driving it if we were to say okay what number of that you know volume is the left it's about two thousand vehicles a day so it's not the majority but it's a it's a volume set and if I were looking at some of the things that could be done this is down in this location we kind of identify this is where some of the key signing could be to help get people to use some alternative routes such as burn Haven to come up some will maybe gravitate and go through do something through the site and then leave so it just at a early level I would anticipate you know maybe half go down aldrich half go down burn Haven you're talking about a thousand vehicles a day which I'm not saying that's nothing but it's about eight percent of the volume that's gonna use it anyway and that would be similar to the hi and if you to just isolate a thousand vehicles a day what does that feel like it's the high end of local world but 1000 and you know 14,000 it's not a local road it's a component of that so that's kind of what we would anticipate with shift around so any questions do another slide or if that I do I got I got a conclusion slide we're almost there okay well let's see our conclusion slightly so I mean some of the big things just in a in a nutshell there there's there's some challenges here compared to other malls just based on how they're the roadways like and some of the access is from the regional roadway Network so we talked a little bit about that we understand that there's some excessive delays that are gonna happen without this project and so there's some things that have to happen anyway but then you add another roughly 20,000 trips and some of those things get bigger but some some things would have to be done regardless we're looking at about a 200% increase in traffic so we talked a little bit about that that certainly drives some of the impacts and we we have focused on trying to get more multimodal connections at cellphone connection may be a part of that Orange Line connection long term I mean there's some things that would have to tie in with that certainly trying to get trails where they make sense there's no and the underpass is certainly something that makes a lot of sense but if you're at grade crossing 42 is gonna continue to be a wide road mitigation could be built kinda in the three or four stages we discuss about with the east being kind of first its's signal timing are part of the solution that concept estimates which is in today's dollars about thirty six million dollars will require collaboration and some teamwork and effort to get and ultimately there'll be some refinement as you know the development details are known so those are kind of the conclusions that's just an overview a little lay out if there were questions but really it's open for whatever you guys I think we asked questions as you went along and we just look forward as you continue to do this work so the the next steps for us is Brandon in his team are finalizing the written study document and then we would anticipate coming back to the council just for a resolution adopting that so that we can take that plan and go forward and try and find funding sources build these partnerships and then realizing that timing is key with the redevelopment okay thank you Ryan I would just add going back to the 13 study yeah a lot of this stuff likely won't occur tell it to coat economy so he's done I mean they're gonna take it oh yeah that's gonna really it could be altered a bit when the quota county goes through it but this is a tremendous jumping off stage to do the Dakota County study so they know what we are thinking what we're wanting and we're lucky to have Doug as part of our team so there's no lack of or no lost in translation yeah no thank you and after hearing Doug's report and Brandon's report and all of the others when you're looking at staging in terms of the building blocks that the projects that we have this one becomes more important I believe I don't know how it the council feels then on the thirteen side even though there's a lot more conflicts and crashes on the thirteen you look at this but this is going to to drive redevelopment and the things that we're trying to do so yeah it's not an easy thing for you all to go through but there's a lot of chicken and egg with this one too yeah I mean we've got a lot of things that we have to take care of it's all how we get it done and there's all of the money that needs to be cobbled together and then getting a resolution so you can go forward and look at grants and our partners and who can bring in and how much that is going to be and I just get anxious because you you put third six million ah that's in today's dollars we can certainly have written into the the document that it will say today's dollars and then to increase each year beyond that a certain percentage you need you need to do that and the reason I say that and I know that Dan G also understands this when we did five and thirteen even though it's a county road in the state road but we had to drive it iseman project and budget update chief german you're hitting it off first right madam mayor members of the council actually let Garrett er Garrett's going to do that okay thank you okay introduce council members yes in addition to the to the cheetah to the chief to my right here we have Quinn Hudson use the principle of CNH architect and part of our core team working on this project welcome where our work sessions are informal so usually an and the council meetings we use everybody's earning but we hear we use your first name coin so welcome yeah all right so this evening for this portion of presentation we're going to take a look at our guiding principles real quickly talk about the facilities plan that took place in 2016 we referenced that there's some been some programming processes going on with our core team and talk about budget planning pressures a financial overview and then we'll end with a policy question so last month you'll recall an opportunity to kick off the fire station project we talked a little bit about it the history of the project's reviewed the 2016 study talked about trends and how firefighting has changed over the last five years I had a chance to introduce our our team of K a and C NH and then talked about our our guiding principles as far as a timeline is concerned we after that meeting we have been working with CNH the fire department staff specifically to look at the programming for what future station would look like and talked about what's working well in our current station as well as where are things lacking as far as tools and facility space is concerned to allow them to do their and so just over a week ago we had our first draft of what this whole process would look like as a core team I think I can speak for the core team that that night we lost a little bit of sleep it was it was not that the design was bad but that station in the in the draft concept did look different than what the 2016 station looked like and so we spent the last week really trying to break things down and and look at what we could be sharing with you this evening as far as an update is concerned and I will tell you that we've worked hard at doing that but at the same time as you look at our guiding principles the challenge is how do you prioritize one over the other do we bring a station and design to you that is functional for the time being but in five years we may outgrow it do we bring a station that's less welcoming and serviceable to the community at the expense of firefighter safety and health and wellness type thing so that's really what been some of the challenges we've wrestled with over the last week and so in the spirit of us being transparent and wanting to communicate in a timely meeting tonight where we're I'm gonna be turning it over to the chief and he's just gonna walk through kind of what we've what we've been experiencing up to this point so you have all that information council so talking about the facilities plan that was developed back in 2015 they proposed a 31,000 square foot fire station it planned for the use through 2035 was what was programmed for it also did not contemplate any site cost work and and since then we've learned a lot in the fire service about cancer cardiac and mental health so there's there's some components operationally that we've learned a lot about in the last five years that we didn't know you know that we can make some impacts on on the design front to make our staff safer and be able to serve the community well it also to include things like public restrooms some of the mechanical spaces elevators things like that so we've we've learned in the past couple we that the the plan from 2015-2016 was insufficient to meet our current needs let alone the meet needs in the future so CNH and cross intersting have led us through this programming phase and what you see up here is kind of an outline the original outline was a going through that programming phase was at a 45 thousand square foot fire station that's the footprint you see in the green we've contemplated a couple other designs and did some value engineering we've got the fire station down to 42,000 square feet which is the black line you see there right now those are you familiar with the site 143rd newton is to pop you know there's some topography challenges there so the the more we can back away from the hole though the big hill on the back the better so we've cut some square footage off there that value engineering included eliminating a couple of public restrooms we were at four went down to two we downsized the lobby a little bit eliminated a conference room staff restroom and shower library and study room downsize the fitness room and we also sharpen the pencil and font some efficiencies the architects found some better ways to lay this out we've been through a number of layouts and this team's been great about trying to trying to find the best value we can on the design so the other important thing here is the timeline is very important we've talked about this and a few atonium november that we're tight on timeline to get in the ground in August or September I would have told you it's crazy but real realistically we're meeting at least weekly and last week was just about every day um but we are on a week-to-week basis to in order to get in the ground before it freezes and avoid winter construction and cost cost escalators that we had not planned on so we really want to make sure that we stay on timeline I truly believe this 42,000 square foot building that we value engineered meets the needs of the fire department the community now and well into the future I feel very confident about having the right fire station built and that we build it so that it meets meets the demand that we can foresee in the foreseeable future as far as the budget pressures and planning initially we had budgeted 14:6 that was based on that 31 thousand square foot building obviously you can't build 50 in 2015 yep and we had some cost escalators but everybody knows that the the building market has significantly boomed and increased in the past five years beyond what we had expected or anticipated so again that initial budget was based on 31,000 square feet in 2015 so in order to meet those current design principles and stay on track we're looking at eighteen point six million a four million dollar increase to build that 42,000 square foot building again some of that was site design work you know about six hundred thousand of that six hundred thousand dollars to put up a retaining wall so again there's some some costs in there that we didn't contemplate we didn't know the site at the time so there are some things we didn't know at the time and then some other factors I'll turn it over to our deputy city manager to talk quickly about the financial piece of this so Marion Council with the increase in budget we had originally anticipated that fourteen point six million dollar investment to be financed over a 15-year term debt service payments of approximately 1.2 million dollars with an eighteen point six million dollar budget we would recommend that we extend the term of debt to 20 years that maintains about a 1.2 million dollar debt service payment that will have some impacts in terms of phase three which is fire station two and City Hall remodeling which is programmed out for 2024 right now we had projected to use a significant amount of cash up front to fund that project will likely want to look at the the model of debt to cash in terms of that long story short with with these changes the franchise fees that you've implemented will will cash flow the facilities fund and will will support this additional investment it will it will just take a light Lea different paths in terms of how we use debt in this case we've worked with the folks at Ehlert's finance staff and our team is very comfortable in terms of using a slightly longer term debt to to best fund this project it just makes sense when it comes to this type of long term capital investment thank you so our policy question is does the City Council desire to modify the current fire station one replacement budget to eighteen point six so again stay on timeline and meet the the guiding principles that we reviewed back in January so stand for any questions and appreciate your time well one of the things in your presentation and also in the background and because I was here to understand a 2015 estimated plan that was presented you did not have site work or land factored into that that was just the building and the footprint of the building and so forth you've learned a great deal since then with regard to what is needed to ensure that our personnel has the right building and meets all of the different factors that they need for Health and Safety and then we also factored into this building that we wanted to be community space which is wasn't factored in in the 2015 plan so a lot of things have changed since 2015 and if we're going to do it council I think we need to do it right yes thank you I agree with you uh unfortunately in 2015 when you did this we were also getting ready to build the police department yeah and we couldn't do both because that would have affected our yeah credit rating and all kinds of different things but the price we pay is you're absolutely right no that's five years real estate and especially construction the cost has gone up the price of labor has gone up I get I get wanting to do the work in the winter because there's more labor available then then come springtime because that's when it just sores labor so we're in that position and if we're gonna build it let's do it right and let's do it where it lasts a long time and we weave as a console have come together make a commitment to grow this city in a pretty dramatic way and it's people are figuring out that's what we're doing and we need to be ready for the future as we do that and that's I think that's a big part of it and I believe that the community wants us to take care of its assets and to also take care of the personnel who takes care of them so you know and we need to do that I don't think this is a terribly uncommon thing for five years later to see price changes just said that let's not do this halfway let's do this the right way um the reasons listed and I think her BJ recruitment tool make sure you have the best facilities the metro do it right the first time and no quilt patches later on Kara this is a core city function yep it was done in 2015 and here we are a few years later although the 2015 doesn't seem all that long ago also in discussions with staff they have assured me that going to eighteen six will not result in an increased levy ask nor an increased ask on the already quadrupled franchise fees so I will go forward with this okay dance members have said I agree on a percent on all those points I think for the general public they need to know that other cities that operate on a volunteer fire department model build a lot of satellite fire houses that are not eighteen point six million dollars to build with our full-time Fire Department and a build from the ground up in a brand new state-of-the-art of men more than 15 years 20 2015 5 I guess maybe it was they were n 20 back in 2015 but that seems like an extraordinarily short-sighted vision a vision with short anyway I'm I think this is the credible number because it was done in a more credible manner and that factors in existing information on the site that we didn't have so to me it's a one-time capital cost we do it right for the next 40 to 50 years we don't create higher expenses later down the road by trying to shortchange what we spend today just for everyone's edification firestation one we did that these nine years ago we spent six hundred and some thousand dollars to add a bay on to an existing fire station that we should have made the decision back then to do what we're doing today the number wouldn't have been 18,000 back then it would have been quite a bit smaller and so we're already paying the price so no more mistakes like that let's do it right and get it right for the next 50 years for this for this fire station and quite frankly the fire folks who are gonna live there much of their life and we need it to be a healthy building not the sick one there okay Melanie chief and Garrett's it's unanimous to move forward in Greg yep anything else or shall we okay the next item then is the fire station one replacement community education space okay chief madam mayor members of the council the next item is to talk about the safety town or public education concept for station one so talk about an example that was experienced by one of the council members how we currently do public education some preliminary design and costs and I get a policy question for ya so councilmember Keely was fortunate to tour the Frisco Texas fire departments yeah I think over there too and they have very very robust facility at Frisco Texas that includes a safety raised the money for this that's correct so it's a safety campus attached to the fire station that does public education so had some initial discussions with councilmember Keeley and I think his and I won't speak for him but his initial thought was to look at including a piece of this not the entire safety town concept because it's a pretty robust system so a little bit about Frisco Texas in their 180,000 population that 58 elementary schools it was built by donations from within the community and they had a quite a boom in the last 15 years of population that community really built from a rural community to a very large suburb in the past 15 years so it's a small town it's a demo firetruck as well as having a bedroom living room and kitchen area so my initial discussion was custom IQ that sounds like the discussion was around the bedroom living room kitchen area function as a public education space and just in some context there if there fire administration staff is a staff of 35 and currently we have seven so just some contexts currently how we do the public education in the community is we attempt to get in every Kinney Gardens 2nd and 4th grade class room for 30 minutes in October during fire prevention week we have challenges it's getting into those three grades and spending 30 minutes just with everything that the teachers have going on the requirements they have but we get in most classrooms and then during the fire muster in the open house we use a trailer from one of our neighbors so pitch it up here's the Lakeville trailer that we use at our open house it's got a simulated kitchen and a bedroom living room that kind of thing that can produce smoke so that's how we currently provide public education of the community looking at the the safety town concept it's approximately a thousand square feet construction costs are over 300 thousand and then we would anticipate additional site work we haven't figured out what that site work would be but it could be as much as another three hundred thousand I would guess given the the retaining wall that we just talked about and that would also require us to have an additional FTE in order to use this I want to make sure if we've built something like this that it's used it's robust and that we build those partnerships and that we get kids in there regularly so it's not being underutilized so so those are that's the preliminary design costs to establish a kitchen living room bedroom with kind of an exit corridor in there that you could provide some fake smoke and have kids or even adults for that matter crawl out a window and and practice some some safety maneuvers so so the policy question is does the council desire to modify the current fire station one guiding principles and budget to include a safety town education component so I won't stand for any questions yeah okay first of all how many Elementary School's do we have okay there's there's mr. Vieau and Neil then you have three right here in the center you've got Sky Oaks gideon ponds and then you go into burn because su trail is going to be closed and Echo Park okay Ron Ron isn't Egon but it's 190 and so that's what we have yes I'm doing out that this is not a Burnsville only amenity that's not meant to be just servicing Burnsville middle grade schools not by any stretch Dan enjoy your presentation as sure as it was but I'd like I'd like your opinion what you think this would do or if it's needed for the department what I would tell you is that we are currently following a best practice public education model so we're getting in the schools the best we can I would tell you there's a handful of these that I'm aware of across the country that are successful but they take a lot of partnerships would it up our game per se in public education sure it would I think it's investment and it it's would take a bit of quite a bit of collaboration to make this successful I think what we're providing is definitely adequate for the community I don't feel like where there's gaps when you look at best practices if you want us to do it we will definitely take it on and do it to the best of our abilities but I do feel like we are we're providing best practice public education today in in our industry okay yeah well my practice this earlier today with Dan but it's not very often that a community builds an 18 and 1/2 million dollar brand new fire station from the ground up it's not too often that the councilmember travels and so happens to go through a you know a fire safety school in another town had no idea when we were going through it what the significance was to that community and and of course they have a lot of schools because their population is ballooning at a rapid rate and I'm guessing the Dallas Cowboys might have had something to do with helping finance that one it's it's certainly nice to have a very wealthy man FL team you know wealthy owner that built a brand new practice facility mall offices corporate offices in Frisco Texas but the so the idea is is very regional in scope so my Tamara to your point this is not about just Burnsville it's all South Metro south of the river and even South Metro schools that could come through this I believe the the full-time employee that you're recommending is a good recommendation I think the funding could come through grants that the school system could access through fire safety instruction even though we might be able to do something like that as well the partnerships with multiple school districts around I believe might even provide more than a single person funding for a one full time f of T we might be able to get to two FTEs which it could actually take that because the volume of students could be fairly significant throughout the year but there's a lot left to do to look at to research and I understand that we're on a bit of a I mean we've been on a timeline with this we've been trying to do this new fire station for several years and finding the property to do it on was a bit of a challenge and so I'm sure there's some anticipation by the fire department to get this going I do think this it is unique there is on a lot of these this is a the first co Texas was the first one I'd ever heard of you know in a in a fire station facility type of thing I do know that when we went through the the presentation it was you know very much like being in someone's house and having a disaster whether it was a fire or a tornado or storm going on outside and it's it's so impactful on these kids that they actually have to ask if any of the children are sensory you know sensitive I guess to the point where they excuse them and they explain to them in another room what's going on and what's happening and the kids who are able to go through it actually experience the smoke filling the room and coming down right you know lowering the roof essentially on them with the the sound the audio effects and and and such and then so I think it's powerful and in very important information and in a safety course that the kids will probably never forget I mean I imagine this would be the field trip that gets talked about for the rest of their their educational lives and beyond if they're ever unfor caught in some unfortunate situation at home they'll have the best training that we could ever possibly give them so I think the power of the the concept itself the regional scope and draw for grade school kids coming from across the river and south of Riverrun and east and west of us is there I do believe this model could catch on and potentially be an example that other departments maybe in other areas of the state or upper upper midwest region would come and look at and see it's a different approach than going in the classroom or a traveling trailer which the trailer is you know i i'm guessing a lot of what Lakeville fire department in community discussed before they ordered that trailer and decided to make that investment and and and and have sort of a traveling mini home where they could create you know the environment i never asked this question i meant to if you were if this council were to say yeah we want to do this go forward what impact does that actually have on the schedule i mean where we add in the processes of designing the actual building it would definitely something that we would really have to jump on because we are if we'd have been on the guiding principles to begin with we would have been doing it the goal is trying to program figure out and then start planning at the time so we're behind what we would normally been addressing it and you know so there is some concern of my side on that but you know we're here to get your directions so it we you know it is certainly something that we'd make happen somehow in other words could you still make this dig in September if this red or is that actually there's some brain yes councilman Reynolds you concerned about yeah it's I can't say that it's impossible but it would definitely be a challenge for us to do without up some impact you know it would probably be something we're worried we're adding a month a month past what we would have been starting with that doesn't work that in danji well you and I did talk this afternoon was and thank you for that you got me kind of excited about I'll give you that as well but when I look at just the timeline number one number two I think if we were had been further down the road with this before it came to us where we knew we had some partnerships in there where we knew had we had other cities that want to be involved and I like when we built the fire tower over here and we knew we had everybody together on this one then we then we built the tower and it's worked out well and I think this concept is worth discussion but I think it's premature right now and and again I'm with character I don't want to lay this cuz I just I don't want to be sitting here next spring and they say well that's another two million dollars and we just don't need that dan I think it's a cool idea but I don't know if it makes sense right now and I don't know if it matches up with the current status of the school districts and everything they're going through and grant writing I just it seems like there's a lot to do at a time when things are needing to get moved forward but I would do want to ask given the site in the building that we have with the 18 Oh 18 6 I know this seldom happens but if this was something that we looked at say five years and there is there room within the site to do a face to the challenge I see on it is the hill on the retaining wall aspect of it if we don't provide room for that addition the addition would obviously connect to the public side of the fire station that would push it into the hill further and so the retaining wall built where we show it now it was built there'd be a pretty significant teardown and expand to redo nothing is impossible of course you know there's always but there's a cost with those two so it's not something where I'd say that there wouldn't be some difficulty anyway to do it down the road thank you kind of piggyback on what you're saying we have other land in town we have the fire tower I don't know if there's enough room down there if we were to build a fire house down there at some point in the future should we you mean the able building that's it that's the one I mean but we have we have some places that we could actually build a small structure because you're not building a real house I mean you're not putting the plumbing and the water and everything in there and all that it's just it's something we're using for demonstration purposes and for teaching tools and we have that collaboration yeah and then we'd have the collaboration together and all that so I mean I think it's worth us checking around to see if people are interested in being part of something like that but I think my sense is it may take a while for that to happen and you're gonna get a while before a bunch of cities want to jump in and say oh it could be a fifty thousand four will help pay for part of that FTE em and I think if you can get that done it'd be certainly worth looking at Elizabeth you know the wolf family pretty well don't you Jr he wrote a check dan and I were in Frisco and we did see this and it was exciting to see it and it's a great concept but as I listened to how they put it together and it was a separate building from it was separate from the firehouse and separate from the the communications system that they have that I was more impressed with that then so this was something that took a while because it took a lot of partners to make it happen it was a standalone building and then they had the little town where the kids had go-karts and bikes and scooters and all of that and they built a city where the kids would learn how to navigate and drive through the town learn the signal lights and so forth but that was done with a lot of partners and so it is a great concept but it took a lot of money and we are on a schedule I know about costs and I don't want to see cost escalators because we we've delayed and but it's something and then because if there's room this building was a separate building so it wasn't attached to the firehouse it was a separate building from the firehouse and it was separate from the communications center that they had in place I mean Frisco has a lot of money we don't they have a different funding mechanism but I think it's a it's a it's a great idea but like the rest of my colleagues I think we need to move forward and I don't want the the trajectory that we have in place to be slowed down but it's still something that we can how many acres did we purchase and how many acres are we using up now you're using the entire acreage okay your idea I don't know how much land we have over at the Abel but because I know that that retaining wall is going to be a long one right along because I know that property very well so if you're using all four acres for this building yeah and I just saw your plans then you had to skinny it back from the retaining wall yeah we need to move forward great plan maybe we can see how all the other partners our able partners and then I don't know how many how many acres do we have down in that property it's not because it's there and then there's a school district and then and then we're eat of the school district the water treatment yeah well Garrett you're the facilities guy you better how much yes well I mean if that's something but the other thing is also staging all of the improvements that we have that we have in place with regard to how much because we have to have the improvements for this building and then the fire station too and to Karis point we have we have all of the infrastructure stuff that we're looking at so yeah so I think we all agree it's a great it's a great idea but we need to move forward with what we have on our plate is that okay who said it was attached to the treatment center no it's not so the water treatment plant is here sorry it's a third is it all connected Melanie not to be helpful for our TV viewers but it looks like it's a long sight so yeah okay yeah so we do have to look in the future and then we so our able building is Apple Valley Burnsville Lakeville Egan and so those are partners and savage could be apartment what I think is something that where we have to take a look at so staff Melanie and BJ Garrett Quinn and Greg I think we move forward with what we have and then we'll have to just take a look at see what the future lies okay thank you is there anything else that you need direction look we haven't given okay great good work you guys let's move forward let's paint it red okay I think we're going into round tables so Michelle is this yours to schedule the special work session for Commission interviews yes thank you madam mayor we are looking at we have this in me the Tuesday but I have been told that that does not work for everybody so I've asked for everybody to look at their calendars between May 18th and the latest we could possibly go would be May 27th to see if there's an alternative date that would work and I am NOT in state from the 20th until the 26th of May May so that would leave us with me 18th of 19 and 27 okay you just make it work for me I can just to the 18th something going on unless it's during the day on the 27th well Cara's just getting in yep so the 18th so I can do date or you typically start around for 30 years know it yeah depending on how many applicants we have we start early so we can go all the way through for me I got some 20 or 80 the 27th works for you yeah he can't do the evening of the 27th only day it's August last day of school and they have a program that day and you need to be there you can't miss those yeah 18 I can do I got a teeth doesn't work for me we have an alternative no mascara is going to be gone from the 20th to the toilet on the 27th you can't do it during the day but can you do it like what time could you it starts at 6:30 no he can do it doing he can do it during the day but not the council packets will go out on the 28th and these need to be included in that typically if we don't get the appointments made by the first meeting in June then that will push back when they've trained and when they can start about the 15th that's a Friday so Friday the week of its national infrastructure week we can't plan anything more look at all the infrastructure we just saw tonight how about the oh you're on the 14 yeah oh we are good to get everybody scheduled on for the interviews but I think we probably do it so I I have Alliance meeting you know just in case we have anything that we need but I'll just have chef carry that Wow oh I can't start any earlier than five just give me a score well we don't know how many we have yet right yeah you're here if you're an hour late are you okay well what are you starting well for and on how many many applicants usually around four but every commissioning for the commissioner reserve four to nine or ten and then we can just start maybe if I if we don't end up with as many sure we have we will start the recruitment process usually starts around the 1st of April and so the week before that I will find out exactly how many positions we handled and get them all posted out there ok ok we got something we got something ok very good ok reports Vince you're gonna be there I think you'd set the all day ok Dan high 35 s meeting this week one of the biggest issues were I've been bringing up and that we're working on I had a meeting with Commissioner workman on is and Ryan's working on this because of our bike riding community is looking for a solution to the flood problem for the trail crossing our big beautiful multi-million dollar i-35 bridge which won't happen unless you're in a car if there's a flood and so we're gonna spend more time on that in a future meeting the Greenway is also still is it still flooded the Greenway we're gonna invite the Hennepin County park and trail person and have our Dakota County and do a dual presentation of the master plan of the trails and how they interconnect and shine a spotlight on the air of mnDOT's ways of not making that on an off-ramp accessible during a flood that doesn't mitigate Black Dog Trail that would be coming down the frontage road I guess if you call it that too the i-35 going north you'd be able to continue on over you may not be able to go down and get on Black Dog if there's a flood event so the other part of that is is what Ryan and I think so you manage really could comment on is we're beginning the process of talking to various agencies to muster up the support and the money and whatever it takes to consider raising the black dog trail above flood plain so it can be used given that our 100-year flood comes around every other year or two out of every three years it seems it'd be you know that's a great trail it's beautiful when it opens up disappointment because it floods like every year every year this past summer it's so much the entire season that you just ride it was basically a write-off I mean you could even use it so very unfortunate but yeah it's gonna be an expensive deal tow to raise it above foot but at the very least we need to be addressing the the crossing of the bridge and the access points to do that for everybody that's not driving a car yeah MBTA boards coming up next week it's the driver of the Year celebration and we're meeting out at the horse and hunt Club which is a first I've never usually go to charity yeah yeah we did the Cherokee for the holiday party it's gonna be horse and hunt for the driver of the year and board meeting so looking forward to that it's fun down there but nothing major I mean everything's getting ready for the legislative session and I'm really enjoying the National League of Cities transportation infrastructure services federal advocacy committee because it's they're anxious to hear about everything we got going on that might involve federal dollars so tonight's presentation gave me some fodder to take to the next conference call which is this this next week okay the Burnsville Community Foundation is reviewing it's coming up but the last meeting had to do with reviewing the winter lighting and there was a suggestion that perhaps we don't light all the trees and I'm thinking oh no you can't go down that road so we're going to be having that's going to be an item on this Burnsville Community Foundation and Garrett did share with them what the city's contribution is and what the Burnsville Community Foundation raises for the water lighting I did share with them that one of the things that you wanted to do was to see if we can light up all year was that we didn't get anywhere because we need to bury those electrical lines and so I will report to them that we did talk about it at the all-day work session if we use deed grant to see if we can bury all of that electrical lines but how much it's going to be but then you know it it's all prioritization with economic development projects so any playing over a number of years probably probably not going to bury it all in one well up coming work session topic madam mayor yeah we'll have some more information so you know I'll report more on that but the thing is they need to understand that it's not just them it's a partnership with us with those winter lights yeah so they can't make a decision about what's going to be lit and what isn't going to be lit because we are a partner in that contribution so that's that and then our Burnsville Savage meeting that we had Melanie was mostly about reporting and one of the things that they were interested in was our sustainability plan because they don't have one and they're going to again to look at that and see how that all works and then the other thing with fees and we talked a lot about just homelessness quality of life issues that we all seem to be facing yeah so those were some of the items that we discussed at the Burnsville savage meeting and then that and then International Festival we are on our way yeah so now we're ready to raise money but we're meeting so that's it you have anything else Greg Nomad Amir Melanie tell madam Eric we stand adjourned by acclamation in under three hours