planning commission meeting for march 3rd 2022. uh roll call commissioner jacobs here commissioner bruhmann here commissioner lanterman here mr shellac here mr abandon90 here everybody is in order all right those that would like please join us for the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the united states of america to the republic for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all all right great thank you everybody all right item three approval of tonight's agenda is there any changes or updates anybody good i have a motion to approve the agenda i'll make that motion i'll second all right all those in favor of approving tonight's agenda say aye aye aye [Music] okay appointment of commission chair and vice chair um i assume that that reappointment was done for those seats including mine that were february okay uh fairly informal um would anybody like to make a nomination for chair anybody like to be chair i i would like to make a motion to nominate you as chair okay i'll accept that does anybody else i'll second it i don't know is that her do we vote later that's i'm not sure how the process is i think we're saying you're getting you please be chair so all right you're right all right all those uh in favor of appointing commissioner jacobs's chair say aye aye opposed okay and vice chair i'll make a nomination to um jim you've been vice chair um is that a position you would wish to continue on or yes it is all right i'll nominate jim shellac as vice chair i'd second all right all those in favor of nominating jim sholak as vice chair say aye aye aye opposed [Music] okay thank you very much everyone all right item number five open forum open forum is a chance for the public both in person and online to address this commission on any topic that is not currently on the agenda [Applause] jessica will give you instructions if you are joining us via online is there anybody in the audience who would like to speak at open forum anyone joining us online can press star 9 to raise your hand other ways you can press the reactions button and raise your hand if you're joining us on a computer tablet or smartphone uh chair no one is currently raising their hand for the open forum okay and that uh um if that's the case then we will move on to item six the minutes from february third 2022 meeting does anybody have any comments or changes to those minutes one it came up in the minutes and i was reminded but we were just talking about the um residential density requirements for the um southeast district and i just wanted to know if at some point in time we don't need to do it tonight could we just review it so we're all on the same page because there were numbers that were thrown out that didn't that i was having a hard time finding and then we kind of just said we couldn't remember at the time would that be okay to do at another date but it related back to last meeting i'm sure that can be accommodated okay just a quick review just make sure that yep that'd be perfect thank you good thank you all right if there are no changes or corrections to the agenda from last month i'll make a motion to accept them so i have a second second all right all those in favor of approving the minutes from last month say hi minutes are approved okay move on to item seven uh seven a new business uh final planned unit development plan for cook lake highlands and at this point we'll entertain staff report um mr chair i'm i'm sorry if i could just housekeeping the staff report states that the 60-day review deadline is april 11th 2021 i'm assuming that that should read 2022. that is correct thank you do you want to so anyone uh wishing to speak on the final planned unit development plan for cook lake island if you're in the audience you can come up to the podium otherwise if you're joining us online we do have one person who is raising their hand for others wanting to raise their hand you can press star 9 if you're on a phone otherwise reactions and raise your hand um alberts all right i'm going to go ahead and ask you to unmute if you're talk if you want to talk about the cook lake highlands project make sure they state their name and address state your name and address for the record my name is lynn alberts and i live at 7490 furlane and i want to thank you for allowing me to speak tonight i have two questions uh concerning the documentation that is being presented for quickly i'm sorry i'm sorry we were having some technical difficulties could you start um overland i apologize with your name and address my name is lynn alberts and i live at 749049 [Music] you can [Music] so i have two questions concerning the documentation that is being presented for cook-like development final plant approval the first one is the maps for cook lake development don't show up trail from the north end of brass lake crossings off-road trail to the fire road on the north side of applewood point this playoff was to help compensate for the loss of trees along bass like crossing off-road trail this trail was promised to the basset crossing homeowners at multiple meetings with breath this trail is not meant to be maintained by the city of corcoran it could have a class 5 base and be classified as an interpretive trail that would view cook lake wildlife and various plants and trees the wetland overland district code section 1050.010 subdivision 5c states that the trails that serve as an interpretive function may be exempted from buffer and setback requirements the second issue i have is resolution number 2021-85 it's on page six of the resolution states that the application applicant shall provide detailed specifications that demonstrate compliance with the code section 1060.400 the lighting of the zoning orders for the project the land form report dated february 23 2022 stated that the applicant provided photometric lighting plan for street light locations and illumination levels for the site the report does not state if the project is in compliance with the code can someone confirm that the lighting plan complies with the landing code for apple appointment we would hope that the applet point would not have the similar obtrusive light pollution in their parking lot and on the building similar behavior thank you all right thank you sir um i think he said mr albert's right yes during the staff report we can try to address your questions [Music] [Music] the staff report please mr chair commissioners i have with me tonight kevin shay a planner for my office and kevin is going to present this report i will not be at the march 24th council meeting and kevin will present in my absence so i felt it was important that he be here tonight to hear your comments to be able to share those so i will pass it off to kevin okay um chair commissioners uh tonight we have cook lake highlands final platinum final pud the final plat is reviewed only at city council so tonight is just the final pud um this is the final step in the approval for the project for entitlements so as you can see it comes into the city of corker on the on the shown map there it is adjacent to bass lake crossings and it does come in on county road 10. so the just a little background on the previous approvals for the project the rezoning to the pud the preliminary pud plan and the preliminary plat were all approved by the city council on may 27 of 2021 so it has come back around since about end of may last year so this final pud plan uh does uh is consistent with the preliminary plan that was submitted with a few minor changes to units so one of them was that the single family homes which originally had 20 in the preliminary pud are down to 19 and that's due to a staff condition um that they incurred in the loss of one unit for that the next is that the senior co-op units for the applewood building uh was reduced from 102 to 100. uh this was just done by the applicant the daycare stayed the same and then the assisted living and memory care facility went from 32 in the preliminary approvals to 27 units again this is just changes with the applicant's materials upon final the overall post development density and this is estimated because there are still changes due to staff conditions so it's estimated to be about 9.0 and that could fluctuate within a couple decimals there but that is within the range of 8-10 units per acre required within this land use the building architecture for each of the buildings in this site does comply with ordinance requirements for the applewood the new horizon daycare the memory care and the single-family villas the single-family villas must provide some final details prior to permits to ensure they're complying with requirements such as garage frontage percentage and some final details on that based on what models they're going to offer on these each specific lots as they come in with building permits if they didn't meet any requirements with the villas they'd have to request a pud amendment at that time but they haven't identified any needs for the pud amendment at this time uh so we'll start off with the architecture for the applewood building this is the building in the northeast corner of the site it's 100 units it's proposed with a variety of materials that kind of break up the facade so you can see there's i can't remember exactly how many all the materials on there are but they provide the materials in compliance with the ordinance requirements they do try to provide a variety of as you can see it breaks it up on uh horizontal and vertical levels so there's multiple variations as it moves across the building and up the building uh with also overhangs for trellises things like that and this does incorporate the flat roof for the view shed from the vast lake crossing the architecture for the memory care facility assisted living does incorporate some architecture that is in consistency with the city code as well as the southeast district guidelines uh overlay this whole project for design and architecture so this tries to incorporate that with the prairie style design so it does have a shallower roof pitch larger over eve overhangs and tends to use some of the other smaller architectural elements that are found in prairie style along with using materials that are compliance with the ordinance and then lastly the new horizons building for the daycare again they're complying with the ordinance requirements for building materials um on all the facades and they also tried to incorporate the prairie style architecture from the southeast district design guidelines into the building so you'll see the shallower which again the larger eve overhangs some of the horizontal windows and uh and then some of just the general roofline variations shown in there for the prairie style along with you'll see and i'm just knowing this because of the next slide they do propose three signs on the new verizon building currently there's two with lettering um that are shown with kind of the half sun uh logo with lettering that says new horizons and then one wall that has just the half sun logo on it and the lettering is on the south and east elevation and the logo is on the west elevation um so with that some of the signage uh on the site overall between two of the sites uh do require pud flexibility um so with that they're the assisted living and you'll know from the elevations there was some signs shown in the elevations for the assisted living that is has since been requested to not be there by the applicant because they're requesting two free standing signs on that site instead of the one that's allowed and then to offset the signage their ask is to have two freestanding signs in lieu of any wall signage because of the building architecture they have said it isn't conducive to putting wall signage on it so they want to have two freestanding signs instead of having any wall signage so that does require pe flexibility the other ask for pud flexibility is to have the three wall signs for the new horizons daycare with one freestanding design on the site and that exceeds the allowance because the city code only allows you to have one wall or a wall a wall sign only on the primary entrance to the space which is one wall so this would be three walls where one is allowed um and i'll get into details on all the square footages and how that breaks down on the next slide um avwoodpoint is has a monument sign with no wall signs so they are in compliance with the code uh so the for the daycare the code is 10 of the primary building phase and it has to be on the entrance of the primary entrance of the building so that's where they're clearly from it is on the number of signs that they have on the wall and then the freestanding sign for the assisted living is one up to 32 square feet and six feet max height whereas the proposal for the new horizons building is they would be allowed 224 square feet of wall signage based on the the front their west elevation which is their primary entrance and this their proposal is to have ninety and a half square feet so roughly forty percent of the allowed square feet but split between three signs on the building so it is forty percent of what's allowed but three times what you're allowed to have a number of walls um so staff is supportive of adding a second wall sign for the increased visibility along county road 10 but doesn't support a third wall sign being added so that's the way the draft resolution is written in the conditions it includes to reduce the number of wall signs to two so it is up to the planning commission to decide whether that should be allowed um you know as recommended by staff with two or requested by the applicant with three um and then direct to where they should where you would support additional signage and then with that recommendation it would modify any conditions with condition number 12 of the staff report regarding that wall signage um and then for the rivers of life which is the memory care they're allowed one 32 square foot sign that's six feet high um if they were in the commercial district which is more typical they would be allowed a 64 square foot sign with the 16 foot height they are requesting two signs that are shown there on the slide they are 36 square feet and 40 square feet so they're slightly larger than it's allowed um and they're nine feet eight inches or nine and three quarters and 13 feet inch eight inches or thirteen and three quarters high so they are larger and taller than what's allowed for a non-residential use in a residential district however if they were you know typical use within the commercial district they would be allowed signage at 64 square square feet and 16 feet high um because they are reducing the wall signage and not having any staff is supportive of their crust for the second monument sign with the absence of the wall sign um and they'll need to provide details about how they're landscaping around the base of these signs to ensure they're complying with the ordinance for that these two signs are also located on opposite sides of the property so one is located on the north side advertising out towards 74th avenue which is the street that connects into vast lake crossing and runs east west north of the building and then the other sign is on the south side of the building advertising towards county road 10. so they are two at in two very different locations um and then just a note on the final flat so this final flat is for 24 lots and five out lots and that's the same number that was with the preliminary flat so with that coming to final flat stage we'll take park dedication um so out lot c which is the owl lot that's north of the single family villas will be deeded to the city um and this was in lieu of any uh parked education fees for the single family villas and this was approved as a condition with the preliminary approvals then the rest of the park dedication is made up of 100 senior family or senior living units and the 27 memory care units in the daycare and those numbers are indicated there based on the 2022 fee schedule so that comes to a grand total of three hundred thirty six thousand four hundred seven dollars of park dedication fees that would be owed with the final flat when it's recorded um yep so i will um circle back now to mr albert um his couple comments um so one is on the lighting uh the lighting the photometric plan and the lighting details for the cut sheets of what the lighting fixtures are detailed to be both comply with the city code and the city ordinance for having shielded fixtures and having reduced light levels adjacent on the property lines surrounding the property or all of the sites not just one but all the sites are in compliance with that lighting ordinance and the city code and the other one was the trail connection between the existing bass light crossings trail and the emergency fire access road north of applewood's building this trail was never part of the preliminary approvals was not indicated on the plans that were approved at that time and so it is not shown on the plans with the final plans um so that has not was never there with the preliminary and so it hasn't been carried forward through with the final plan yeah we can we can discuss it that's something you know listening to the resident comments that's something that the money commission wishes to talk about so it was discussed with the preliminary but didn't make it as a condition of approval with those approvals and so didn't get carried forward with this final plan um i think i believe that addresses both the regular ones um so then it would be oh yeah so with the staff report sorry one mo one with the request for signage on the memory care facility if the planning commission wishes to go with staff recommendation i would just recommend one slight change to the resolution or the draft resolution in the packet it would be under 14 c and that's just to clarify that the 36 foot and the 40 foot monument sign on the north and south sides of the lot would be in lieu of any building signage would just be the ad just to clarify that that's you know in fact that's what the difference is there's no wall signage so then there's two monument signs allowed so that'd be the one revision but with that staff is recommending approval of the final pud development plan um and the ped amendments or pe flexibilities incorporated within it as recommended by staff if there's any questions for me go ahead and ask whenever you're ready thank you mr shea well done um what does anybody like to start off mr lantern um out of curiosity was the preliminary application ever heard by the planning commission was it before my time do you know when that was yeah i have to i'd have to look at each because it came back multiple times there was two rounds of preliminary where it came through um and it got ended up getting denied the first time through and then it came through a second time and ended up getting approved um i don't know those days april for planning i believe it was at the planning commission in april of last year okay well i do i i don't i don't believe the planning commission ever recommended approval no no and i think it came to the planning commission three times that sounds about right yeah but it didn't it never got recommended by the planning commission but didn't end up getting approval from city council at the last meeting that was in may yes it did okay so if i heard you correctly you said that you were recommending that this commission uh approve the application but as a final pud isn't it true that this commission has no discretion and must approve it even if we don't want to is that true okay so why are why are we here uh mr chair yes sir you actually do have a lot of discretion on the signage portion so there is a component okay there's a pud amendment for that sign so i can say i want bigger letters you can say you have to comply with the sign order okay all right and you can't have three wall signs and two freestanding signs okay so um you know i read recently uh a story in the star tribune about a final pud in another minnesota city now in that case the city had pushed back on a final pud after it had already been granted and received preliminary approval now that case got sued out it's in court right now and the judge in that case commented that quote if the city has rights it should have asserted them at the preliminary stat plat stage or lose them end quote so i i agree with the judge and i think that that position is supported by our code i just don't like feeling forced to vote for things whether i like them or not so i don't think we have a choice but to approve it i don't buy the whole well you know you can you have discretion on the sign so what um so that's all i have to say okay thank you um i um this is sherlock here's your charlotte are you sure bruhman yeah i just had in i know i can wait you go first seriously take it that could be a big mistake um so i did get back to that trail um now i i wasn't um this commission wasn't privy to the meetings that were held between the developer and the neighboring community [Music] [Applause] after our our last denial but i do recall that there were comments made by the developer that there would be a trail that would connect those that that was an integral part of the trail discussion and how it went through this so i was surprised to hear that but um i also didn't see it um but i was curious i i kind of thought it was these dark gray lines that that jumped through this neighborhood but i think that's that's stormwater runoff drainage um is what i'm guessing now but um it it is what it is right now and i hope there's a resolution to it um [Music] um i wanted to uh ask about um the the signage then so in in my view um can you tell me first and foremost for the memory care where exactly are they proposing that sign i could not locate that on the drawing on c 2.1 or any other [Music] and i'm not sure if it's indicating [Music] there's the first sign for the assisted living okay so i can tell you generally where they are they're indicated on the site plan but it's hard to see on here one is in the northeast corner of the lot the other is in the very southwest corner so they're kind of here opposite each other yeah one's by the shared drive access in between the daycare and the members those i found i i just i i don't see it anywhere here on the south side on again on c 2.1 i did get some new glasses so i can actually see a small print now but i i would assume it's obviously within the the the property lot line and outside of the easement so mr chair you can see it on the landscape plan unfortunately it's not on the other plans um okay [Music] okay and that is the one that's going to be 14 feet tall correct that's the one that's proposed to be slightly larger and taller so in in their request it let's assume that they did not put one in the front of their building up on 70 8th street or whatever that is they could have chosen to put it in the back there's nothing in our ordinance it says they can't put it alongside county road 10. okay so it's one choice or the other okay now does that if we if if the planning commission recommends approval of that to the city council and they do allow that does that go with the building does that run with the building or run with the owner so assuming that that the date the memory care leaves building becomes unoccupied and at some day in the future somebody wants on building signage is that going to be allowed or are they going to be prohibited because it was not granted with the original owner of the property the second hooker it won't be allowed because it wasn't granted with the approvals for this property unless they take down the monument signs unless they came back for a pd amendment or they could do that too yeah that'd be the correct path to go through them and the resolution that when you restricted their property on the building mm-hmm okay um as far as new horizons um you know i understand that they're asking for signs on all sides of the building and it's far below what would be allowed the thing that concerns me is the you know as i read the justification for that sounds perfectly logical but why wouldn't any business i mean this is not a situation unique to just the signage needs for a daycare this is something that every business would love to have what if the next four-story apartment building that goes up they say you know what in order to make sure that we've got a continual flow of renters and people know where we are and they can find us i i don't find the argument that we need all these signs so that parents can find us you're on the corner of a major county road but what if they start asking for signage all the way around the building at the top floor you know um i think it's a i think it's a precedence that if if we do this i think a lot more buildings in the future are going to come doing this and then we might as well revise the whole signage thing so uh in in my in my estimation i don't think this is a good option i i can't quite see the necessity for it and i think as far as the signage um you know the the memory care being that they would have the only sign out there i'm i'm still a little bit on the fence on that one um but uh ultimately as we all know it's a decision for the city council um but those would be my concerns is that once we allow it you know it's it's gonna be something that you set a precedence and who knows where it'll go from there so that is all i had um anybody else well i just had a couple questions about the sign only particularly because the previous resident was asking about the lighting in general as opposed to what's currently at the corner of 101 and um 10 will the signs be uh lit up like i know we have an ordinance and so i apologize it's probably stated in there but if someone is aware of it will they be lit you know what i mean like top down or does it those big um bright spotlights that shine it up um to fully light do we yeah so there will be a review with the sign permit on what lighting is allowed for it but it will have to comply with that lighting with our okay limited by making sure that it's used to illuminate the sign itself and not the surrounding area and it would limit it based on the number of lumens so it's hard to describe exactly how bright that is based on what you were describing for backlit versus you know spotlight lighting or top down lighting i believe these signs all are backlit lighting so it's gonna be smaller lights behind the individual channel letters um you know on the rivers of life design and on the applewood sign and they'll be lit up mainly during the night time you know so it won't need to be as bright to contrast with the daytime lighting things like that okay and then if i just wanted to review the sign that's going to be or that's being asked to be on that southwest corner for the memory care center that is larger right so it wasn't just the two signs but it was a request for it to be larger as well okay any other comments questions discussion just if i may i'm just more curious uh still learning all this but the the the idea of the there's limits on signs i mean i guess i you wouldn't want 50 signs on a building is but is there what are the bigger concerns between kind of the monument style versus that and on a building i get not having too many around around it but i'm just how did we land on two or one or you know those kinds of i can talk a little bit about that mr chair please do um [Music] in corcoran had a very very restrictive sign ordinance until maybe six years ago i think it was when we adopted a new ordinance and i think at the time we felt we definitely needed more signage but the council was very conservative and very cautious about what they allowed so i can assure you that this is multiples more than what was allowed prior to that update but it's certainly less than you might see in other cities so it's very much a policy issue that's driven by the council so at the time the council wanted to limit signage it may be something that over time the planning commission recommends that the council look at or the council takes on their own so there's it's really just a matter of sort of minimizing science to minimize visual clutter and lighting and things like that but it's very much a policy issue thanks and i guess just relating to the size that requests for it larger like it is in a more residential area so i understand wanting the more prominent sign on that county road 10. um making that assumption but it is just it is different because you're right it's not in the commercial district so there wasn't a discussion about just reducing it down and allowing to i didn't see that as like a proposed resolution that was not recommendation well i i i heard it i heard a comment i think it was in the staff report i think it's important to remember that um this is primarily a residential neighborhood and to just then uniformly allow commercial [Applause] [Music] commercial based [Music] regulations regarding signage ordinance in it i think would just be a a fundamental error in in that sense um this this particular development has had a lot of opposition due to the fact that there is a daycare there the memory care was converted to a residential use because they put in i believe kitchens to get rid of that non-residential stigma so allowing allowing a sign ordinance for commercial buildings and primarily a residential community doesn't sound right to me at face value i i you know they they chose to put these there i think that they abide by the sign regulations for a residential neighborhood plain simple any other discussion comments mr chair yes sir um the only thing i have to say about signs is that i underlined the signage requested would not only enhance the school's professional appearance in the community but also build confidence for potential families you either have a sign or you don't if you don't have a sign it doesn't look professional i guess that's the point they're trying to make um enhance the school's professional appearance in our community um well it depends on what the sign is and what it says i guess um again we're uh i'm echoing uh commissioner lantern in in saying that i'm i'm discouraged that the only aspect that we can talk about right now is signage i'm still opposed to this i believe it's a safety issue i think it's too too much too dense of a population to be located too close to the intersection of county road 10 and larkin road which is already a dangerous intersection and the curve on county road 10. i think of traffic going eastbound turning left into the facility and exiting the facility turning left and going east it's going to be a lot of congestion and so i i guess doesn't bother me as much what they do with signage as the fact that it's even going in there [Music] so um we do have an opportunity here again as a commission to weigh in on the signage issue because they are asking for a change in what was preliminary approved um uh being that that i just given that we had a shoreline overlay district that gave plenty of fact finding to deny this in the first place and the fact that this commission has denied approv recommended denial of this three times i find it would be a little hypocritical for me to vote yes at this juncture so with the noted changes i personally regardless for the the commission votes i'm going to vote to deny this thing again right um and i don't know if that's where you're leading to jim but i think it's just being consistent that this development just just didn't meet the conditions by which i'll agree it was it was zoned in air and that zoning could have been changed to fit something that would have allowed development under the um shoreland district but that takes time and that would have scuttled this planet in its entirety so it's it's water under the dam but um it is what it is so mr chair i see you and i raise you one i would like to make a motion to deny okay does anybody want to second that i'll second that shulac all right any further discussion all right all those in favor of recommending denial say aye aye aye of recommending or i'm going to stay i'm going to abstain and i think i would have to agree in this just because i know that there is a principal vote happening here which i thoroughly support but i was not involved in the earlier process so that is why i'm abstaining okay okay um we'll move on to item three or i'm sorry 7b [Music] [Music] yes mr chair this is a public hearing this is a preliminary plot site plan an administrative permit for wright hennepin electric for a new substation at the northeast corner of larkin road and county road 116. it's a vacant roughly 40 acre site it is kitty corner from their existing substation which is outdated and needs to be replaced next slide the property is guided mixed residential and zone mixed residential rmf ii is the zoning district and i would note that essential services which is what this is defined as is permitted in all zoning districts in 2021 the applicant submitted an application for a similar application but it included a variance for a substation under the transmission lines on the south side of 198.35 larkin road the planning commission voted four to one to recommend denial based on the findings the fact that the variance standards for the smaller lot that was requested were not met the applicant withdrew the application before going to the council and has been evaluating alternative sites the parks and trails commission reviewed this item on february 17th and recommended acceptance of outlot a to satisfy the park dedication requirements for this project i would remind the commission again that the preliminary plot cite plan and administrative permit discretion is limited to whether or not the application meets the standards in the ordinance if it meets the standards you must approve the application the role tonight is to review the application for the site submitted in your packet were some comments about it should be on a different site it is not our role to look at a different site it's to review it on this site also our role tonight is to look at the application in front of you and our part of our role tonight is not a discussion of how the land is being acquired there is an eminent domain process in place i have consulted with the city attorney it is not our discussion tonight to talk about the appropriateness of using eminent domain or not it is to review the application in front of you this evening essential services uh this uh is the definition in the ordinance it's broadly based but it includes things like substations like our lift station there's a lift station north of the applewood point uh project we just talked about the those items are allowed in all districts and would be approved at the staff level but for the preliminary plat that's with this you would not be seeing this if there wasn't a preliminary plan it would be administratively approved next slide this is being shared though tonight in the analysis of the site plan and administrative permit for transparency if it meets the standards in section 103090 of the ordinance which were talked about in your staff report it must be approved next slide this is the preliminary plat again it's a 36.92 acre parcel wright hennepin is acquiring approximately five acres in the south west corner of the site uh that five acres is then split into a 2.87 acre lot for the substation an acre and a half for outlot a and then a right of way for county road 116. the remainder outlook b is 32.29 acres that will be retained by the existing owner on this screen on this plat the applicant has ghosted in you can see a street connection that will in the future connect county road 10 down to larkin that's on the east side of lot 1 running throughout lot b that's a future construction but we want to ghost plot that because in the future outlaw or lot 1 the substation would be required to get access from that local street rather than from larkin there are a number of wetlands on this 40 acre parcel there is a wetland that runs through out lot one proposed lot one that would be filled as part of this project i also noted in the staff report that as part of the city's water extension to downtown a number of years ago there was an assessment to this property that was deferred until such time as the property was planted that assessment is due now with this plaque in the ballpark of about 21 thousand dollars we'll finalize that number with interest with the plat but that is a condition for this applicant as part of their approval and they will need to negotiate that as part of their other issues in acquiring the land but that is due with the subdivision looks like i mentioned that there's wetlands to be filled you can see that hashed mark on the south side of the substation site that's the filled wetland the wetland remains on outlot b therefore there is wetland buffer that's provided on this property the wetland buffer will need to be planted and staked with wetland buffer signs to protect that the employee parking is on the north side of the lot between the substation and the stormwater pond i noted in the staff report it was detailed in the engineers memo that larkin road is a four ton road and that's really limiting for construction equipment and and some of the maintenance equipment that will use this substation the resolution includes a condition that the applicant either obtain access from the county as a temporary construction access and then comply with the four ton limit on larkin road or they improve larkin road to the driveway to handle the construction vehicles and the maintenance vehicles over time the couple of things included as conditions in the staff report you'll note those red circles show grading that's happening off of lot one that cannot happen that's grading on our city park property and there's a little bit of grading shown on the property that would be maintained by the retained by the landowner the applicant cannot grain off site no no land owner can grade off site without approval from those adjacent land owners we do not have those approvals at this time therefore those the grading plan must be revised to bring that grading limit inside the site that'll result in a few changes to the site i think notably on the west what it means is a small berm that is there on this plan it's about a two foot berm would be removed if you can't grade on the park property so the small berm that they're proposing would likely go away because there's a drainage swale between the property line and the substation that needs to be maintained so they could add some additional landscaping the green circles are areas where my landscape architect believes additional trees overstory trees can be provided and the yellow circles are some areas where he believes that some additional low shrubs or understory trees could be provided the planning commission could comment on that there is a requirement that the substation be screened and so that is something where you have some discretion in ensuring is that meeting the code requirement under the current plan or should additional landscaping be provided in order to address it i've actually included a draft condition that says they should provide slats in the chain-link fence so that slat will provide screening and really screen that equipment and that would satisfy the screening requirements in and of itself next slide the building is rock face concrete block with a metal roof that is acceptable materials in general we have those types of buildings for our lift stations in corcoran um that is typical for a city utility building but i would note that the code does say uh these types of buildings should be compatible with the character of other structures in the district i don't think rock face block is inconsistent but the planning commission could recommend a more traditional residential style like a lap siding or something like that or a brick finish as an example that's something you could discuss this evening next slide this is just an image provided by the applicant with the proposal different views different birds eye views the next slide are some cross sections or view sheds that they've provided these were in your packet next slide this is a public hearing the uh you should take testimony staff does recommend approval however i've noted a couple of areas where i've added some conditions that you may wish to discuss and i do know that the applicant did provide a powerpoint presentation in your packet that they would like to go through this evening mr chair very good thank you all right at this point we will open this up to the public hearing for those uh in our audience that would like to address the commission on this topic please work your way to the microphone state your name and address for the record and then for those that are online if you could jessica will give you instructions again raise your hand and we'll note you after we go through the people here in the audience good evening chairman planning commission mayor council and city staff my name is susie sweene and i am the trustee of the george daisy property located at 7400 county road 116. the land that wright hennepin is currently targeting for their substation my address is 2112 holy name drive medina minnesota i know you've received letters from me and and others that are part of the trust but i would like to verbalize my opposition to write hennepin's choice of property i also realize that you must consider the effect of the proposed project upon the health safety and general welfare of the city as existing and anticipated and the effect of the proposed project upon the comprehensive plan as the zoning of our property is mixed residential and the purpose of mixed residential zoning is to provide areas with a variety of housing types such as day cares family homes senior dwellings along with parks playgrounds and non-commercial recreational facilities i believe that the proposed location of the substation in this mixed residential zoning district will have a negative impact on the health safety and general welfare of the city including the following four issues excessive ground currents [Music] environmental concerns with thousands of gallons of oil stored in the transformers sound pollution encroaching on the future cities linear park and future homes and the visual impact of the substation itself number one excessive ground currents in proximity to the substation basic electrical engineering indicates that all electrical currents that leave the electric supply substation must return to the source substation the return currents flow both through the neutral conductors on the power poles and through the earth called earth currents the earth currents can result in stray voltages in proximity to the substation this can happen at all locations that are grounded to the earth which include all homes and businesses grounding is required per the nec national electrical code these stray voltages will occur on all conducting paths within the homes and businesses including all wiring and plumbing as you contemplate the safety and health and general welfare of the city i urge you to also take into account the negative effects of the earth currents on residents in their homes children in their daycare in the parks and playgrounds and possibly even in their swimming pools emfs electromagnetic fields are yet another concern in proximity to substations number two environmental concerns according to the corcoran substation two specifications the design provides for two 115 kv substation transformers the specifications do not indicate the kva size of the transformers however in typical substation transformers the approximate amount of oil would be in the range of 2 000 gallons per transformer or in this case 4 000 gallons of oil there also may be other equipment with the sub within the substation that contains oil such as oil circuit breakers which could contain an additional hundreds of gallons of oil with designated wetlands located about 250 feet from the proposed substation and the soil being sandy silt the dangers of leakage or even a possible high voltage explosion contamination would seem a distinct possibility although the design provides for berms in a catch pond possibly high possible high voltage events are very difficult to predict along with the possible contaminant of oil especially during an explosive event a leak or explosion could cause the oil to access the wetlands and the environmental impact would be significant and as discussing earlier reducing a berm would also impact this please in contemplating the health safety and general welfare of the city please include this number three sound pollution in proximity of the substation due to the low frequency of the electricity within substations 60 hertz or 60 cycles per second there's a constant audible hum emitting from substations equipment and conductors within the substation engineering studies show that the noise from typical substations emits sounds in the range of 60 to 80 decibels typical complaints from nearby residents are from substation transformer sizes of 20 to 150 mva at distances from the substation perimeter within 500 to 600 feet i do have the footnote for this information there are also indications that the audible hum of substations is heard from as far away as a thousand feet when the background noise is minimal such as during nighttime hours this constant audible hum will very likely be heard within city linear park and by people living in proximity this will negatively affect the marketability of properties near the substation a large noisy substation is inconsistent with the current zoning and future uses please in contemplating the health safety and general welfare of the city please include this and finally the visual impact of the substation on the corcoran 2 substation specifications there will be multiple high voltage transmission towers within the substation that will be nearly 60 feet tall even though the substation specification proposed trees and other landscaping around the perimeter an attempt to hide the substation it will still be clearly visible from many miles away including being easily visible from within the city of corcoran and neighboring properties this is clearly a negative impact please in contemplating the health safety and general welfare of the city please include this and finally i am in the belief that the city of corcoran residents would like to know more about this project and much information has not been forthcoming the pressured rush of this substation seems to be an attempt by wright hennepin to slip it by nothing to see here i implore you to please advise the corcoran city council to deny moving forward at this location and i thank you very much thank you all right thank you mrs swing we can have uh our next speaker but anyone wanting to speak online if you want to press uh star nine to raise your hand we'll queue those up next okay yes uh my name is greg coughlin i'm at 19220 hackamore road and i just happened to come up here um to watch um i don't even know why i'm here but i'm not here to speak but it it appalls me that the angels and i know the dejas very well have some land and if it's my understanding that we're using eminent domain to push forward a project like this on the daejel's land who have been miss hogan i i just want to make sure this is very clear to everybody when you use the reference of we you you i hope you are excluding any reference to any action that is taken by the city of corcoran to acquire that land the city has nothing to do with that that is a that is an initiative completely i don't even know what you're talking about the term we i'm up here just expressing well you just used it you just said i can't believe we are using imminent domain oh okay so now we're okay we're gonna word smith me okay i will i'm saying the fact that the dejols have owned this land for a long long time and whomever is using some legal remedy to place a substation on on 116 it's appalling and if it's because of the tremendous growth in residential housing 1 000 homes being approved over the last five years from this from lennar and um the growth of the city center i think you can find much better places for that and you should maybe even contemplate putting the substation next to the lennar development and or on city land but the idea and i know formerly mr desjail he would be appalled that this is going on right now and there does seem to be some rush and something's going on here and i'm just sitting in the audience and i just was made aware of what's going on and i'm voicing my opinion my opinion you could do a lot better than what you're doing here tonight okay thank you anybody else my name is greg ebert i reside at 20604 county road 10. i've owned the property to the north of this for probably 24 or 25 years ages have been great neighbors i thank them for what they're doing i think we've all passed many many opportunities for a gateway to corporates i understand you guys have not made the decision on this location and i feel like the big monster came in and clubbed this we've had a plan i would guess the city spent well over a hundred thousand dollars from larkin road to city hall with different plans with landform with everything not saying i've agreed with all of them but i will tell you this when you put something like this on a piece of property you blight the rest of the surrounding property i think this is something that belongs to an industrial area i like right now and they're great people i understand why we need it we all like when we hit the switch and the lights come on i think the location which you have nothing to do with is not right but i will tell you this you guys are looking for a five acre park you've talked to me because i own a couple parcels down there i think if the city approves this the city should think about buying the rest of that property and making a park out of it to make daisho's at least whole because you guys are in a search area for a five acre park for your linear thing and i think that's a great place for it because i don't want anything to do with that part so that's what i want to tell you it's shattered every dream we've had in the last 25 years and i sat on that planning commission for 10 years and talked about it and turned a lot of better things down so thank you so greg so let me just understand you think that when you say the park are you talking about the park that was kind of sketched in at the west end of the wetland actually the park was on the other side of county road town you guys are doing it it's a cert it was a search area that i met with the city about five years ago kendra and you guys would like to obtain five acres of land do you have a kind of a downtown center park oh okay yeah yeah yeah okay right but i think i think this is a great buffer put your part there if you have to approve it which i think you're going to have to prove it that's a great place for you guys to put your partner so okay okay all right great thank you all right anybody else all right we'll go to some online anyone online can uh click reactions and raise your hand if you want to speak at this time we could give it just a moment otherwise you can press star 9 to raise your hand you're online joining us and then mr chair the applicant does have a presentation as well i don't know if you want to do that before or after you close the public hearing uh probably after so it does not look at this time like anyone is raising their hand online okay um okay dale maui 7450 caulk road a little ways away from whatever we're talking about however i want to just stay no matter where you put this this size of substation is still going to have the emf ground currents the audible noise everything else it's not going to be mitigated because it's not put in this place however it is probably a good thing to say where is a better location for this other than where that's been picked and i always it makes me cringe when somebody says eminent domain because it's a bad taste thank you thank you okay anybody else last call one once all right uh chair we'll take a motion to close the public hearing i'll make that motion second i'll second all right all those in favor closing the public hearing say aye aye opposed okay public hearing is now closed and we will uh move into uh commission uh discussion did you want to go ahead with the presentation from the applicant oh i'm sorry yes yes we can either do it before or after no no by all means please oh no okay that's slip on my mind sorry about that guys i'm just gonna move it here so i can see good evening everyone mr chair commissioners mayor city staff i'm bob sandburg vice president of power supply with right hand pin electric joining me tonight is kurt port director of engineering um we also have some other representatives um online is our legal consul mark sugden as well as staff from great river energy who's a transmission provider first of all i want to thank you for the opportunity to discuss this and just provide background i think it you know we were here a year ago so for some of you it might be a refresh for others online or joining us tonight it provides context for basically the drivers how we got here um the decision making process and kind of the project at hand what's the best way to do this just you just tell me next slide okay next slide all right so it's probably best to start provide a little background an understanding of who right right hennepin is um some key points we are a non-profit electric cooperative what does that mean that means we are owned by our members unlike an iou where they have shareholders our members are our owners our decisions that we make are for our members our board of directors are made up by our members and our members are residents of corker they make up residents of all of our territory in fact we serve just over two 2 000 2 246 members are in corcoran we provide service to 57 000 consumers in hennepin and ray county and we are local we're headquartered in rockford minnesota and our 150 employees live in these areas and communities we've been in business since 1937 we've been around for a long time next slide so with that i think it's good to start with why are we here to answer that question so everyone understands and it's really it should be no surprise it was heard on the previous amendment is that you're growing the city of cork is growing and it's growing fast and currently our infrastructure is inadequate to meet that growth plain and simple we've reached the limit on what our existing infrastructure can do and it's been stated yes we do need to build a new substation um but there is a key point there is and this is something we have to remember is we have an obligation and a duty to serve our members to provide safe reliable and affordable power that's the basis of what we do so this growth and this infrastructure that is inadequate jeopardizes that and we have to address that so consequently we need to build a new substation and it has to happen in this area so with the understanding of what we need to do let's talk about our analysis work so we look at the city of 2040 comprehensive plan really it's a roadmap that shows where we expect the load growth to occur and the type of load drop we use this from our long-range planning perspective to understand what dynamics are in this area and how to plan for it over the long term and when you can see our proposed site aligns with this plan next slide and as we mentioned we currently serve 2246 members but that's just today the load growth is explosive in corporate it's already been mentioned since 2018 we've seen 30 percent growth in services and that's just the start given all we're seeing in terms of applications for new developments mixed use commercial residential it's only going to grow from here so the challenge is meeting this growth and there's a short time frame by which we can do that we're already a year behind because as mentioned we were here a year before at another site and we've had to reevaluate and come back based off of feedback from the city and so we're under the gun in terms of meeting our timeline next slide so we talked about the low growth how is it moving and where is it coming from it's really moving east to west along bass lake road you guys see this you're the planning commission you see it every day with the year the plans that come through here and that star right now represents the site that we've selected for our substation it it meets the low growth coming really from the south and from the east so the next slide so in response so we have this need we understand that i think everyone can appreciate the load growth and the need for a substation once we once we understood that we really we launched a comprehensive evaluation and due diligence process to identify sites for a new substation so we didn't take it lightly it wasn't like we just said one site that's it now we did a complete evaluation and right here is listed 10 criteria so when we look at a site a number of things go into go into determining what makes a good site and to be honest to try to find a site that matches all these criteria is very challenging you eliminate sites very quickly and to come up with a feasible site is hard work it's not easy it's not just saying hey we got empty land here we got empty land there no that's just a component of it there's a number of factors that go into this and i'm going to focus on two of them that kind of get lost at times and that is the ability to get power from the transmission line and the ability to distribute it two key things so you need to be adjacent to a power line first and foremost to be able to take the high power to take the voltage at a higher level put in your substations and lower it to a distribution level and then you also need to be able to distribute it to where the load is going and that becomes a challenge and something that really limits your options once you start taking into account all its criteria next slide so first step of course was what's low-hanging fruit what can we do let's look at our current substation current site let's try to take advantage of that if we can that site's been around since 1952 it's served our membership in the city well for that period of time but as we mentioned the low growth is taxing this sub we are at its limits right now um and right now we are forecasting that to be breached by 2023. so that jeopardizes our ability to serve and provide reliable power it cannot accommodate additional distribution features and i'm going to mention why this site is good and why it was the initial site and why we wanted it to work is because it's at at the intersection and why that's important is our lines to superpower go north east south and west right that's the beauty of that intersection you can go all different you can go all directions to meet your load and right now we are seeing a lot of load on the south end so right now we have a distribution feeder going in each direction we're gonna have to send a couple more going south to meet that load but at the end of the day it's not a feasible site this was built in 1952 we now have different setbacks we now have easements the land restrictions that we have in here just the site in general cannot house the substation that we would need to build and be able to meet the requirements of the city and the county so it is not a choice and not an option for us next slide so i'll just touch on the site that we had brought forth last year because initially we had worked with the city shared that we needed to build and we looked for alternative sites with the understanding of where the load is our ability to distribute power [Music] being able to move it down the different intersections so we brought forth a site at the south side of shamrock property think back to those criterias and checking the boxes it was located adjacent to an existing transmission line no new transmission lines need to be built it was right next door to load easy for us to get our distribution lines out to meet that load growth both north and south it was undeveloped land um we did have a purchase agreement with the landowner and it was consistent with the city of corcoran's 2040 comprehensive plan in terms of meeting that load growth city feedback the location was near existing neighborhoods and i do have to note that we did require a variant for this site i think kendra mentioned that earlier right so that was a condition that it was zoned and the size of lot that we were seeking was under the minimum requirements which require us to seek a variance from the city [Music] the city came city also shared with us that you know what aside from placing it next to existing residents who have been there have existing buildings we'd like to see going farther north we understand your need for a substation we understand the attractiveness and the operational benefits the installation benefits of the intersection being able to go in all different in all four directions but move it farther north away from the intersection or from existing residences so we took that feedback next time and we continued our evaluation we looked at a lot of other sites we evaluated more than 10 sites we in-house suggestions what we identified suggestions coming from the city suggestions coming from residents if it was an option we looked at it and at least approached it from a standpoint of can we make this work but i'm going to go back to those 10 criterias you can easily weed out options just by evaluating them on those criterias we also had legal our legal representative reach out and contact 10 of our property owners soliciting interest to try to negotiate a transaction but at the end of the day we weren't able to find anyone and i'm going to go back to the farther you get away from that intersection the greater the challenges become from an installation standpoint from an operational risk standpoint from a community involvement standpoint disruption all that you have to take into account so when we look at those other sites they're just not feasible for a variety of reasons no willing seller insufficient right of inadequate transmission lack of size inadequate access again it narrowed our options down this was not us trying to slip something through push it through quickly we took our time we've done our due diligence we've tried to work closely closely with the city with the city staff share with share with everyone who would listen what our challenges are what we're trying to accomplish um so i i just want to you know reinforce that that's what we're working hard to be a good member to be a good participant [Music] next step next slide this really illustrates the challenges and the differences we see and we'll find when we put in our distribution readers so on the left hand side you see how we would install our lines going north and south along 116. it's an open trench you can lay them in there it's an unencumbered right away it's 65 feet that hennepin county has so we're not disrupting existing land owners who have driveways who have landscaping who have property right there we're taking advantage of an easement that allows us to do just that and when you're going and what you see here every feeder has three lines every dispute line you have an a b and c phase um and so you're gonna have at least three of those going in each direction we're gonna have to have six of them going south that's that's the benefit of locating along 116. now on the opposite side on the right hand side you see that's the challenges you get when you go further down for for this example if we went down larkin to the west it's a much smaller right away it's already congested congested sorry with natural gas easements with telephone fiber all those are fit into this tight easement already we would have to do directional boring and when you get west of that intersection now instead of just one line going that direction we have to bring 12 lines back to get that intersection to go in those various directions so those are the things that you have we have to take into account when we look at the viability of a site and just the challenges that that that brings that directional boring just from an installation standpoint from uh ongoing main standpoint and the disruption of everyone along that road so we're taking that new call mr sandberg so the photo on the left yes sir um is that representative of the lines that would be buried that are already on posts that run north and south along [Music] 116. i mean is that is that what i'm looking at or what what exactly what are you describing there as bearing and versus what is there or what would be new relative to the new substation good question i'm going to let kurt answer that so i don't misspeak is um so what in this particular picture there's there's the four feeders running south as it's shown of this there's two brand new ones that are headed south for donna hackmore the goal would be ravinia we have switches that are already set up down in that area we would tie at least two down there we would bring a third one to we we would look at the overhead above to replace that and bury it because i think that's the future of what we're going to see but right now this is i think there's maybe one extra wire showing in this picture because that's a picture it's from a different location yeah but the idea would be to do all the feeders underground most likely on the east side of the road next to the linear part that's suggested and that's how we would try to take care of taking care of this so but that would be a process that would happen eventually with or without the substation being located where you're proposing would that be fair i mean you know it's funny because i was just you know i happen to be driving by there this morning i stopped and looked at the site you know got out walked around and you know i thought wow wouldn't it be great if we could get rid of all these power poles that are running north and south so that's what i what i saw you know when i'm looking at this picture is that what we're talking about is the ultimate elimination of those power poles in a form it would be i guess i would stress that it's going to take a period of time to make that sure i mean we're out here our goal is to take the old substation out you know it could be four or five years on that we just need to kind of see how this how the development plays out if it continues as it is we will we can we're going to take this and then we can put a few switches on that corner maybe on the south side and we can pull our wires out of their feet to the west to the south of the bottom engine you know in our of our directions we're going to turn and come north with an additional feeder i mean there's to try to get to 10 and do some spreading out there we're also going to probably go down larkin i mean i right now we're we have a plan but we don't have a set plan you know it's kind of true the development's coming really quick but our right now the immediate need is hackamore ravinia and i mean you got the development rivera down there that's a lot of houses we're just not and when bob says into 23 our back feed capabilities on these feeders become highly questioned at that point so we're going to run into a point where we have an outage we're going to have to fix it in place we can't back feed it which turns a simple what would be a couple hour back feed situation into a half a day to a day of digging and splicing wires that's kind of stuff that we're afraid of that's what we're working for the substation itself is has capacity as the feeders right now that are in question capacity is going to be short coming up also so i mean i'm probably giving you more information than your and that's why bob tells me to sit down okay does an extra job on the technical side right but thank you the takeaway is this is an illustration but this is what you will see right on our installation underground um and the benefit that's just 116 has going up north and south right relative to other options and to be honest when we looked at the land west on larkin we were fairly certain we wouldn't be able to get the lines back down to that intersection given the uh right away that we were dealing with and what was in there already all right so next slide all right any other questions okay i mean yes but not right now okay you'll save all right okay i just wanted to make sure so that brings us to our current site we've already touched on a number of things the the attractiveness of that intersection allowing us to go east west north and south the ability for us to tie in directly to a transmission line that is right there doesn't require additional transmission poles to be constructed allows us to install our distribution feeders underground at that intersection and go south it's currently undeveloped land it has no existing residences next door which again goes back to the feedback we got from the city last year at this time it's zoned mixed residential but as kendra pointed out and i think my next slide touches on is that still allows essential services including substations to be cited there and we don't require variance the site being pursued is large enough to accommodate flexible landscaping options which will show in which you've already seen an illustration of and which we're very focused on because we know the city is very focused on that and that's a goal of ours it also provides sufficient access we mentioned numerous sides both from the road getting in there as well as from the electrical side of the distribution and at the end of the day this point ensures reliable electricity according to residents for decades to come that's the goal right we're not doing this just to solve a problem today like our last substation that was built in 1952 and served its purpose up until 2020 2022 2023 that's the mindset that's the that's the vision we have when we look at this we look at okay we have a need today but how else is that growth going to be solved and served for the next 20 30 years and what's the best situation best solution for that looking at what is the best solution for all members that's that's what we're trying to solve right can't always i don't say appease everyone but please everyone we have to come up with a solution that is the benefit for all of our members and that's at the end of the day what we try to do because it our members are our owners so that's the basis of all of our decisions everything we we contemplate [Music] next slide so again this just touches on the zone mix residential if there was a question there had we have gotten a lot of questions hey can you zone this can it be zone can be placed there uh yes it can this touches on the city codes um our ability as an essential service to site there just so there's you know not a question by any residents or anyone else on the ability to have that done next slide so kendra went over this a little bit i'm just going to touch on this some key points on the site and how it's being developed we're looking at 5.3 acres the last site that we brought forth last year was two point sums this is twice as big that doesn't mean so i don't want anyone taking away that the substation is going to be twice as big right it's not it's in line with all the last substations we built in fact the substation itself the fence scenario is only 0.75 acres the rest of the land as you can see is used for linear walkway trail for the parkway being dedicated back to the city 65 foot setback from the road which again is advantage for utility placement um other setbacks and berms from fence and driveway and at the end of the day it really allows for landscaping because we know that's a critical component so we focused on that the landscaping was designed and completed by a landscape architect it wasn't done in-house we went out we went and looked for somebody to say do this and do it right we incorporate maximum vegetation planning giving the spacing available kendra's noted on her plan where we can do better of course we're going to take that and we'll abide by it we'll incorporate that we have no problem with that some key points there you know we have six varieties of trees um three types of shrubs multi grass we're trying to be a good participant here and a good member of this community in a lot you know tie it in to its natural environment to make it look as good as we can that's the goal next slide and just touch you on the linear part i mean what we're trying to do here and i'm just showcasing this is the 1.78 acres that we purchased and we're dedicating back really we hope this demonstrates our commitment and our support to the city of corcoran again trying to add value back to the city next slide not going to show this and spend too much time here you guys saw this on kendra's slides this just kind of gives a depiction of what um the landscaping will look like what the site will look like after it's landscaped and done again heavy heavy foliage and screening on all sides where we can divide that screening from the road from from the south from the north we're taking into consideration all the feedback from the city in terms of how we can you know maximize this what we can do and we're incorporating it last so in conclusion um we're here really as a response to the growth we're seeing in the city we've noted that we've made it very clear we need to build a new substation our infrastructure is currently taxed the site that's been identified at the intersection of 116 in larkin was not by happenstance was not just selected easily it was selected after a comprehensive review looking at all relevant needs limitations considerations serving today's needs as well as well into the future the proposed site provides low operational risk minimal community impact and allows wh to gain their system reliability forward that's what we're trying to accomplish that at the end of the day we've noted that capacity on our existing substations can be exhausted 2023 unless we build now we run a risk of our main purpose and that's to assure adequate reliability for our residents after this year and securing this cypher is for the benefit of corporate residents for years to come so that i know we have questions as communicated so all right mr sandberg um we just briefly discuss maybe the safety record of of substations in general and maybe right hennepin specific to concerns raised regarding oil leaks and explosions yes so kurt will touch on you know the technical side of things but let's just put this on the high level is safety is priority right whether it's our lineman's working online whether it's environmental concerns from our standpoint that's a priority that we take at high level and we and we evaluate it we've never had a situation where we've had a spill at a you know at a magnitude of like being described in all the years we've been in service it's not something we've dealt with now that said we don't just rely on the fact that it's not happened we have contingencies we have place we have processes we have procedures we we make sure that we are prepared for an event to happen and i think kirk can address that to a better degree yeah we for each site were required by our uh our borrower or even our own personal as a company each site has what we call a spill plant counter measure plan so we in this particular site there'll be clean up materials there the other thing that we take into account on our transformer that that's in question we we put scada alarms so we're getting 24-hour monitoring on that transformer if that level changes you know by 100 gallons or less we get an alarm saying there's a leak in this transformer and we dispatch crews out there to take care of it address it i've been knocked on what i've been fortunate i've designed close to 40 of these substation designs and i knock on wood because i don't want to ever see it happen but i've never seen an explosion in one that we've designed the issues that and i've seen leaks but the leaks have never been catastrophic and we've addressed those i at this plan as far as the spill plant i could see we put like uh and you guys got to tell me i'm giving you too much information but we have a clean rock that's six inches deep that's in the substation as a grounding material but it also uses as a soaking mechanism the oil runs into that rock so that helps absorb gallons and gallons of that the swales all go back to the holding pond and that holding pond i believe that i haven't checked the gallons of oil on of what what's contained there so i mean that's kind of the long-term fit to the big fix if something does happen but immediate we're watching this constantly and i guess i just want to assure people that this this is a very rare occurrence i know i've seen youtube videos and you look at how that stuff happens and i you never get to see why what caused it and why okay now on the uh there were some issues regarding noise now your first time around at the previous site um mr sandberg provided us a list and i went and toured all those they do sit right next to residential so these things are no doubt amongst residential communities some of them as close as 80 feet in my tours i was very hard-pressed to find [Music] um you could hear a little home but it i didn't find it disturbing and the farther away and this was standing right at the fence but um but it would be it would be correct in saying that the the substations that were given to us as representative last year would be smaller than this one so could you briefly give us some idea based on the size of this one what kind of noise levels say would somebody hear if they were walking along the linear park or if a multi-family or single-family residence was 150 feet away is it something i mean we've heard you know people claim it'll keep them up at night and everything else i mean how loud will this substation be relative to normal distances in proximity to it i know like the nema standard or the design standards state about 58 decibel as the design standard that's put out and when corcoran's substation failed the well i don't want to say fail when we didn't get it passed on the first time noise was mentioned and i know this particular transformer was requested and i've seen a third party test report that showed this at 57. we have this new transformer sitting in our warehouse right by our warehouse right now so we have an independent test report showing this is below the required standards as far as the noise at the edge of the properties i'm i i would relate it to you could probably hear it i i'm thinking with the on a normal walking night traffic on 116 is going to drown out that huh i i mean but that hum sleeping next to it you probably hear a whisper not to mention when the trees develop more you'll probably hear a little more of it i mean little yeah sorry but you'll hear a lot you'll hear less of it as things develop around it when this double when it right now i i mean i don't i don't hear the sound in out of the corcoran 2 or the corcoran current substation so i i'm thinking that tub is relatively quiet as a as a means because we haven't had any complaints about noise off of that substation so that substation transformer when we double lend will be that same transformer that gets put in to the other side in the other bay of this substation so i guess i'm telling you the information we have currently doesn't show anything greater than what would be occurring okay now in general if this planning commission were to recommend to the city council that slats also be included as part of the landscape screening would those slats in effect also limit some of the noise going outward from from that you'd get more upward noise just of the deflection i mean the sliding is still there and are sliding vertical or horizontal they are pretty much vertical okay they're vertical and the ones that we've used in the past so you have you have used these in the past i can't speak for right hand i the previous co-op i worked at we slided i think two or three substations okay um and it wasn't because of the noise request that was it was a visual yeah we said yeah well i'm just trying to think if if you know again i thought about it as we were going to discuss here but i thought well you know maybe there's a secondary benefit to just the visual it it might help maybe with some of the potential noise that might emit from this um so that's all i was wondering if you guys if you guys have any evidence or experience in knowing whether or not it played a part at to any degree no not directly i can't answer clean on that okay also we've heard concerns about ground currents going through now i i i live probably too far away uh i haven't had any electrical issues i don't know about the general you know the the neighbors of the current substation but can you elaborate about the likelihood that this would create disturbances to residents people swimming in their pools things like that in addition to the whatever ground currents may be there with the existing substation yeah well i'm you know i mean i i haven't read about it or heard about it as being a bigger issue and i've lived here for 26 years but you know if we're going to build a much bigger one i'm just wondering you know given the the size of the future one maybe some changes in design since 1952 uh is this is this yeah yeah i kind of addressed the feeders to start with the wires that are under the ground if you look at our bob didn't tell me to bring samples but anyways what it amounts to is our we have an aluminum typically it's a large aluminum conductor encompassed by 15 copper conductors of which it's the concentric neutral so what in turn happens there this is almost a canceling effect then by bringing them all three together you can cancel a lot of that electric field out but the neutral return matches the what we call it a full neutral if whatever is going out comes back it'll match up but i will say um that the we are effectively grounded we ground other places so therefore there there can be ground currents i won't deny ground currents but we are not inducing them there's natural ground currents in the earth all the time but as far as our goal is to bring our stuff back on the neutral what we're putting out and we bond to the ground just for safety that's and so i don't know if that's answering your question but that's how we deal with it there in the substation we have overhead bus work uh we have the ground in the substation itself there's a a ground grid that dissipates into the earth or receives that from a safety perspective that ground grid goes into the earth here and it doesn't it may flow out a little bit with the transmission but for the most part it's going to go just down to larkin road and get on those overhead lines that you had mentioned earlier and that's where it would kind of travel back and forth between okay great one last question before i give my my co-commissioners here an opportunity um the existing site you said that it might operate for up to an additional five years after this other one is built is that generally correct yeah i would say give us that amount of time to try to to retire that out i it's it's it's right now it's very the where the load center there seems to be developments occurring all over the place so getting feeders out in different directions we want to make sure we do it right yeah jump ahead what in in dismantling that i would assume that it'll be removed all the existing equipment that's there yeah the steel would be removed um there there is a uh on uh if you look at the overhead picture but there is a building that next to the truck it has a fiber optic control building for a fiber optic business not related okay i'm just talking about the the substation itself we will remove all the steel the goal is to not to have to put any switches in there if we if we would do it immediately we would have to put some green boxes there just to handle the transfer of feeders okay so let's just talk long term then so long term the substation is dismantled um would uh would would the co-op consider selling that land and to a different use i mean or is it something you're always going to have to have with something on it yeah i i really can't speak okay that five-year advancement but i guess if somebody asked me today and that was gone i all that equipment was gone that land is probably not beneficial to us i mean i yeah i think when we had some of the early meetings with kendra she was talking about road concerns and everything you know because that's one of the main features if we try to expand that we're expanding right into the 116 yeah right away and it just won't work and and in in decommissioning that at any stage you don't anticipate there'd be any environmental work necessary as part of that process as far as i know and from our records we do not show like an oil leak or anything in there and just to add a point to the oil there was a i believe a statement about oil circuit breakers our new designs in our circuit breaker since 1952 are vacuum designed so there is no oil in these we've replaced bushings with polymer bushings now where there's no oil and there was also we're doing our best so you don't have two thousand four thousand gallons of oil we have i'd say in the proposed one yeah we will have that in the transformation okay saying all the other auxiliaries i think we have one other two other transformers that are smaller to serve load or station power service there and those will have oil in also but for the most part we're pretty much looking at the transformer as our primary focus our primary concern for oil okay great thank you very much um commissioners anybody else want to have some questions they want to bring out our discussion no well i i i always like to hear what he has to say first he has a lot of thoughts on it we talked about this earlier well i have two pages of questions you're ready oh you just we were just getting started it was reward that was a warm up okay um well i i i did talk with mr sandberg briefly today um there is um [Music] i i've listened to in seeing these things now based upon the information it was given there seems to be some differences in the acreages about the site um and and whatnot and i i don't think that that's a real issue here i it is what it is but and and maybe over time things change but i i couldn't reconcile you know like you know outlaw a i have here in the report is 1.50 but your report is 1.78 um [Music] in lot 1 your report or on page 5 of our table it says 2.26 but yeah as i did the math you know a 270 by 448 square foot if you square that out you know that's seven 2.78 and then you gotta take in the curvature and i kind of estimated that you know i come out with two point eight nine you know and again not that it's a big deal i'm just trying to look for accuracy and consistency and some of the numbers that i'm reading from staff report to you know your documents and whatnot so i understand and i could say what we can do is to ensure that it's lined up going forward we'll we'll make sure we sit down with staff and then we have the exact same information some of it's partial based where you're where you know the parts will always solve the larkin and the survey is based on everything kind of two larkin so i mean there's some different numbers in the plans themselves right right um one of my first questions um was regarding you know the requirement in the staff report to show the future access off this future road and i i would it be fair to say kendra that you know [Applause] the land in the in the preliminary downtown [Music] overlay district shows that as being a pud and then one says single family but it would be impossible to know what road might possibly go through there and how close to this facility correct here i think the goal uh with the road that's shown in the southeast district plan is to connect ten and larkin along that west side of that wetland and so while certainly we don't know exactly where it goes with speaking with engineering that spacing as it's shown there is where we would want to see that road touchdown but would that be then why you're saying that they could not in the future take access off larkin road correct because it's going to be future 10 no that is no longer part of the plan okay just that larkin is still going to be a collector roadway so a higher volume roadway and so engineering always wants to take traffic off of a higher volume roadway for for individual access points and put them onto a local street so it when that local street that north south street gets built engineering simply wants to close the access onto larkin and use that local street okay landscaping um so if we go to page six of the staff report um where's my staff report [Music] okay um first paragraph however plans show trees located in the drainage utility easement drainage swell and wetland buffer area staff has included condition the applicant must revise the landscape plans to show that these relocated plant materials are outside of the buffer now as i've looked at [Music] at at this site diagram and i'm referring to sheet c10 i just i mean looking at the the landscape design that they gave [Music] here's the line it's got the arrow pointed drainage utility easement typical well when you look at that relative to the bituminous area the the fenced in area it's maybe not so much an issue on the north boundary and the south boundary but on the east and west what have they got maybe four feet to plant all these different trees in and and while most of their sites have been landscaped such that the trees are varying you know scattered it would seem to me that if if they have to do that every this this is just going to be a row of linear trees in a very very small spot almost impossible then to do any kind of burning even if they even if they wanted to so how what's the story on on this yeah i would say that the um i think it will be impossible to do berman i think when they have to bring the grading onto their site and off of our site but i do think there's room to stay out of that swale and um on this site um the public works believes that there's like not likely to be utilities in that five foot side utility easement they're more concerned about keeping it out of the drainage swale so they're reasonably comfortable that those trees can shift this one i guess i don't have the markups of the couple that are going to have to move i do have an exhibit that shows the ones that have to be moved so on the lower right hand side of this image where i have that circle showing the grating off site that's where the wetland is and the buffer and those are the trees that are going to have to be removed primarily because they're in the wetland buffer