e e e yeah um anyway welcome everybody this is the uh wiper Township uh annual budget meeting um and it will be broadcast live on the Township's YouTube channel this evening and in perpetude uh tonight's meeting is not a town board meeting but it is a meeting of the people our residents in the township uh the town board staff and town Consultants are present as a resource I don't know if I introduce myself I'm Pat Christopherson we have Dale at the end Public Works Megan does our minutes Chad our attorney uh Haley is our finance manager and the man of the hour is Tom Kelly our finance director uh the main part of the presentation this evening is the tax levy for 2024 uh when this does come to a vote this evening only Town residents have the privilege of voting since the meeting is not a town board meeting the meeting will be run by a moderator uh residents may ask questions at the end but we do ask that you hold on till the end till Tom gets through his uh presentation I will also State um if you need a hearing device there are a couple on the back table uh to help you out um part of tonight's process is that we do need to uh nominate a moderator um Bob kermas who is a Township resident has helped helped us throughout the years and has volunteered to do so this time uh in order for Bob to fulfill his requested position as the meeting moderator I would need a motion and a second followed by a vote uh for Bob can I get a motion on there's a first can I get a second there's a second all in favor all right Bob for you I do not I do not see any dignitaries here okay good great uh Pat misspoke thank thanks for the support your the vote uh there's only one hearing device left in the back so some of us have immediate needs uh okay the uh the general format of the meeting will follow and use a a modified version of robbert's Rules of Order so as Pat mentioned we'll be taking motions and uh and voting on on those uh motions uh we also have uh um the township attorney here Chad emons who's going to be our parliamentary officer for the meeting and just a reminder if you haven't signed in yet the sign up sheet is by the door in the back there so be sure you sign up at least before you go okay so the first item uh beyond that on the agenda is to approve the agenda tonight's meeting agenda it's pretty straightforward and uh obviously purpose is to discuss the budget so is there a motion to approve the special town meeting agenda make MO is there a second motion's been made and seconded all those in favor please say I I I any opposed okay we have an agenda uh in the packet and also on the town website is uh the meaning minutes from the 2023 special Town budget meeting uh we need to have a motion to approve adopting those minutes is there a motion MO is there a second motions made and seconded to approve the town meeting special budget meeting meetings from last December those in favor please say I I any opposed okay next item in the person of the hour is going to present the oh I'm wasn't that the meeting december2 December is now okay well I meant I should have said December 5th 2023 was the date of the special uh time found budget meeting okay is that what we voted on all right Tom before we getting any more confused I'll turn it over to you and we'll leave my mouse and we'll hear what he has to tell us about the proposed budget for 2025 all right let me change gears here all right before we get into the budget I know most of you are here just to hear my joke so why did the banker switch careers he lost interest why did the math book why was the math book un happy it had too many financial problems I'm so good at these well now you know why I'm the finance officer not a standup comedian uh the purpose tonight uh as Bob said is our special uh budget meeting and hopefully you'll have a better understanding of the town's budget and mainly the property tax system and then uh we do need uh the residents to vote and approve uh per uh the proposed property tax levy and then recommend the general fund budget for 2025 uh at this meeting uh to start off uh the township uh still has received all three Financial awards from the government Finance Officers Association of the United States and Canada uh the white uh uh award there is for our uh popular report which we post on our website which is a summary of our audit report uh we've received that 9 years in a row now and then the one in the middle is uh for our budget uh document uh we've received that 23 times and then the uh last one there on the far right is for our audit report uh which we've received 29 years uh in a row and we're only one of 12 government agencies in Minnesota to receive all three of the awards uh one of the charts that our Auditors like to show is this one that compares our expenditures uh to other communities uh using uh data from their audits and you can see here that in 2023 the township spent about 983 uh dollars for uh our governmental funds which include our general fund our uh Capital funds which includes uh our road improvements and stuff and then also our debt service funds which is our repayment of the bonds that compares if you look at uh similar size cities of 10,000 to 20,000 in population uh in 2021 which was the most recent data they had uh on average they're spending ,000 $363 per capita on expenditures and so the township is trying to be very frugal with uh your money and we are uh below what uh similar size cities uh uh typically spend uh starting off with the levy uh the first part is our debt uh we have uh outstanding standing uh or the total debt Levy for or total debt budget for 2025 is just over a M400 th000 uh it includes three Bond issues uh the 2019 the 2020 and the 2021 Bond all which were issued for Road Improvement projects the town has received a bond rate in of double A Plus from uh standards in pors and then double A1 from Moody both are one step below AAA uh so uh they view the Township's financial position very well uh basically the only way we could become a AAA city is if uh we were to uh get much larger is basically what they have told us uh we do have a new issue plan for 2025 uh it will fund our 2025 uh Road improvements uh project uh which is quite large uh it's over $3 million I think and so uh we don't have the Reserves to pay for it so we will have to issue debt for that uh as of the end of this year the town will have outstanding debt of 10 Mill $520,000 uh it has been going down the last couple of years as we have not issued any new debt uh however that debt does require a debt Levy of $ 41,8 74 it's a decrease of just over $15,600 from the 2024 Levy and if you own uh median value home uh which now in the township is uh 3 I got to find it it is $378,900 uh you would pay about $642 a month uh to pay off the debt Levy the other portion uh of the levy is our general fund uh the general fund accounts for the day-to-day operations of the township uh as it's proposed right now the general fund Levy is a 7.95% increase and the main Revenue Source unfortunately is property taxes it is a balanced budget which means Revenue Vues do uh equal expenditures and we're not uh planning on using any of the reserve Town reserves uh to pay for that uh one slide I do not have uh but will affect our expenditures uh we're we'll 2025 will be the second year of our Union contract it does uh require a 3.5% wage increase and then health insurance from our health insurance provider is going up 5.7 overall our Personnel costs are going up uh just over 8% for 2025 expenditure wise uh 2025 is very similar to 2024 as far as the breakdown Public Safety is still by far the largest of the uh uh expenditure areas or departments it's the red piece of the pie followed by public works and then our general government and then our Parks uh as you can see the pie is very similar there's couple percentages uh change from Public Safety or public works and parks and and that's about it as I said Public Safety is our largest uh expenditure Department uh the budget is proposed at 2,632 37 it is a 7.25% increase uh making up that increase police is uh 7.38% and fire is 7.2% both are based on uh the contracts that we have with the with the Ramsey County Sheriff's department and then White Bear Lake uh for fire uh and it's based on their 2025 budget again on that median value home for Public Safety you'd pay about $ 2625 a month uh for Public Safety Public Works is the next largest area expenditure wise uh it's a 7.12% increase and they are just under $2 million now um most of the increases are just inflationary increases again with the exception of uh our um Personnel costs and then um we had a a slightly higher increase uh in chemical cost uh overall Public Works uh on that median value home uh would have a monthly cost of about $23.66 our general government area which includes our Administration staff our um elections recycling um Town board expenditures and planning activities uh is increasing uh right around $50,000 to a mil 4.94% increase again it's mainly inflationary in the Personnel cost and uh the monthly cost on that median value home would be about $11.6 finally we have Park and Recreation uh which is increasing 14.37% uh it'll be just over a milon1 00,000 the big increase is to uh remove uh ash trees and town parks and other town properties uh We've increased the budget for that for to about 85,500 and then uh Park improvements uh which includes some uh improvements at belir Beach and uh parking lot replacement and Trail uh improvements at polar Lakes Park and then uh Red Pine Park is scheduled to have the boardwalk that's in that Park uh replaced overall the Improvement area of the park budget is increasing 25,000 to $375,000 uh for 2025 again uh a monthly cost for parks on that median value home would be about $13 .92 going to the revenue side again very similar 2025 to 2024 uh you can see property taxes uh does account for 86% of our Revenue um unfortunately the township is pretty much fully developed uh so U we don't have any other revenues really to offset that uh some of the revenue highlights is uh in 2020 four we received uh Public Safety Aid uh it was a one-time Revenue source and the township decided to split that up ha giving half the revenue in 2024 and then the other half in 2025 to offset uh fire and police expenditures uh that for 2025 half of that amount is $240,500 and then as I said we're pretty much fully developed uh so building permit Revenue has been decreasing uh we decreased it uh 12 uh 52% just because we have less new homes being built that leaves us with our property taxes uh as the largest source uh the good news is our fiscal disparities which is a revenue sharing on Commercial properties is actually increasing to 437,000 so it does reduce uh the tax burden on the residents a little bit uh but again our general fund tax levy is proposed at five million 5, 323,000 for 2025 if you break break down the total uh property tax uh you can see property taxes uh for the general fund are 5 5, 323,000 uh the fiscal disparities is $437 450 which gives us an operating Levy of 5,760 450 and then the debt Levy uh of 451 874 which gives us a total tax levy of 6,212 324 and that is a 9.33% increase over our 2024 Levy uh here's a chart from Ramsey County I know it's pretty hard to read uh again this is using our preliminary Levy which is our worst case scenario that we had to certify to the county in September and uh since then we have lowered $116,000 off of that Levy uh but our increase at that point uh was just over 11% and we were one of the lower uh ones in Ramsey County uh seven communities had small increases and then 11 of them had larger increases than what uh the township currently is is proposing again what uh makes up our property taxes uh the Ramsey County Assessor does uh set your market value you get those notices in the spring and then uh those property tax uh or Market values are applied uh to the class rates to establish your uh tax capacity uh those are set by the state now the state uh did uh give a little bit of relief in that area in that they have what they call in 2012 they enacted what they call a market value exclusion and that exclusion from 2012 through 2020 4 was 40% of the first $76,000 of market value or $3,400 and you take that $3,400 and subtract it from 9% of your value over $76,000 and that is what is excluded for tax purposes prior uh once you hit 43,800 in value you no longer qualify for any exclusion so you don't get one now beginning in 2025 uh it'll be 40% of the first $95,000 of market value or $38,000 which is then subtracted from 9% of any value over $95,000 and the exclusion uh Taps out at 515 or $57,200 uh is where you no longer would get that so the higher value homes are getting now going to be able to receive some of that exclusion that they hadn't gotten in the past which will then help uh keep their Levy uh slightly lower the other part of it is the town establishes its ta tax levy which is what you're doing tonight uh you'll vote and approve a tax levy that tax levy is then divided by the town's total tax capacity to determine a tax rate and then that tax rate is multiplied by your individual tax capacity to determine your property taxes now the town ship's uh tax capacity for 2025 uh is going to increase 2.45% uh to 21, 667,000 uh this is one of from you can see from the bar chart there it's one of the lower uh increases year to year that we've had in quite some time uh but it is still an increase which generally means most of your homes saw some type of a property tax increase or a a market value increase uh the proposed 2025 property tax rate now as I said is 6,212 th000 uh 324 again uh looking at the bar graph you can see we've had uh increases over the last uh 5 six years um well since 2018 basically um on our our property uh as I said you when you apply that to the tax capacity uh you end up with a tax rate of 26. 652 uh that uh is the highest it's been in the township uh since uh 200 2 or 22 I mean when it was 27 253 uh so uh you'd actually be paying less in taxes than uh you did in 2022 um using that tax rate and comparing it to everybody else's uh all the other communities in Ramsey County we would be the second lowest uh tax rate in the county um we had been up around the fourth and fifth uh but with everybody's increases and so forth uh we have now scaled back down to where we're back down to the second lowest in the county what that means is using that median value home and even on all all homes this chart would be similar uh but you can see uh the city of North Oaks which pays for most of their city services through an association fee uh they are by far the lowest and kind of an outliner there but then there's the township uh which uh median value home would pay about $977 uh Arden Hills would be the next lowest uh you'd pay about $52 more if you lived at that same house in Ard Hills uh White Bear Lake you'd pay about $136 more and then vness Heights uh $195 more uh than what uh you do in the township and as I said uh this chart would be very similar uh no matter what the value of your home has been as I said more than likely you saw some type of an increase increase in your U market value uh Mo the median value home increased 4.77% from 2024 and as I said it now sits at $378,900 uh that's an increase of $17,250 from uh 2024 if you apply that kind of a cross different uh properties uh you can see here the the last two bars uh are 2024 and 2025 uh the bottom line here is what the homes were valued at in 2016 and applying the uh average increase uh this is this the Top Line would be what they're valued at today and the median value home is right in the middle here and you can see based on increased Market values and then increased uh Township uh property taxes how uh each home uh value has been affected by the increases uh we're certainly not the only ones uh that affect your property taxes uh this pie chart uh shows the breakdown of all the different taxing jurisdiction on your property taxes obviously Ramsey County is the largest at 39% of the tax bill uh the school district comes in at about 30% uh then the the township at about 23% of your tax bill and then there's about 8% for miscellaneous uh districts watersheds um and so forth taking that median value home here's a comparison of the monthly cost of the township Services you can see Public Safety in 2024 the uh median value home would have paid about $23 and now is going to pay 2625 on public works it went from about 22 $ to 2367 General government $10.67 to $1.16 and then Park and Recreation $11.83 to$ 1392 and then uh our Debt Service uh which is going down uh went from 658 to 642 and overall that median value home would have gone from about $748 a month to $81 in in 42 cents a month again uh once our budget is uh completed and so for and uh ready we will put it out on our Facebook our Township website uh and all our other media and uh just to summarize the total general fund budget is 6 74,900 increase uh property tax levy is proposed at 6,212 324 which is a 99.33% increase and that would give us a tax rate of 26 uh 26.6 52% and uh would give uh Property Owners a monthly cost or a cost of $51.75 up to about $13.92 on homes valued uh on that chart that I showed which is an increase of about $4 12 to $ 12227 so with that I will take any questions um as I said there really wasn't a whole a lot of changes to our budget other than inflationary ones but again I'll take any questions people may have and we do have a microphone so uh if you have questions uh please use the microphone so the people on cable can hear and just give your name and your address and we'll go from there questions you go sir good evening I'm Greg yinger uh 5476 Balo Boulevard East um thanks for all your work on the budget I know it takes a lot of effort and difficult decisions um we still the the tax levy increase of 99.33% is pretty substantial um we know from the from the papers that the city of St Paul is attempting to reduce their increase to 5% could you talk about what the impact would be if the town adopted that lower increase in their Levy boy if we went down to about 5% uh we'd have to think about uh service levels probably about the only place we could really cut uh to get down that low uh would maybe be to eliminate uh Township day and movies in the park um you know we've got like I say our biggest uh increase that we have a part in uh is what we budgeted to take down uh ash trees on Town property and Parks um you know we're doing it to eliminate the ashb uh you know we could possibly do it in phases but you know that doesn't really help the ashb problem I guess um other than that there really isn't a whole lot of areas that we can cut I mean we did increase uh the chemical budget a little bit in in roads for treating uh uh uh for snow plowing events um but that's about it that's really where kind of our discretionary spending is I guess if you would call it that yeah um my name is Scott Smith I'm at 43 378 Bambi Lane um yeah thank you for the work on this today um just following up on this question so you mentioned uh movies in the park and Township days could take us down to a a 5% uh not that on its own uh right now the budget for that item for those two items is about $50,000 um but that's really the biggest discretionary area that we'd have I I you know I'm we'd have to cut other areas um the other areas if we reduced it you know a few thousand here a few thousand there uh may or may not affect Services um where but I guess I guess that's the the gist of my question is you know you know last year it was a fairly significant increase this year it's about the same maybe a little bit more where are we where can we cut I think we're all in the an environment where we're looking for ways to cut in our own personal budgets so what are we doing in the township yeah because I'm just seeing uh increase increase increase yeah we're we're trying to hold things down as much as we can and and uh you know the one chart shows you know similar cities uh spend more than we do per capita and and cities this is my city no I understand my increase I don't care where I am on the list yeah um we just don't have a lot that we can cut right now I mean it it's really tight I mean well I guess that's what we're asking is that I'm asking I would like you guys to to look at areas that you can cut and it maybe will hurt a little bit but that's the prudent thing to do yeah I'm I'm just trying to think of everything we have in the budget and I I gotta be honest with you I'm kind of at a loss Jim Lin 2642 Suzanne Circle you brought up the Ashmore trees and so I'm going to use that as kind of an example and a question on it the um Parks and Recreation budget went up partly to cover removal of of that is that removal done through public or public works or are we Contracting outside and kind of to me it seems like if we're doing it through Public Works we're double counting in ter terms of cost to towards the taxpayer because of the amount of trees and the size of a lot of the trees uh we'll be contracting that out plus it right now because we're not the only Community dealing with Emerald ashor uh the sites that take the trees or that the trees once you've cut them down are getting harder and harder to find and it's costing more and more to get rid of these trees so it's so uh it's kind of a combination of Contracting with a contractor to take them down and then disposing them back here Ed Pon 5435 pearon Road um I think sitting on the board we everybody feels the pain I mean we all are residents uh what we found though is as you try to trim something out or or decrease something we're kicking it down the road eventually it's going to catch up to us and then instead of 5 to 7 to 9% it's going to be 12 or 14 again uh we found that out with Road improvements that's why the Township's been very aggressive now on our our road Improvement plan we just can't keep delaying these things and you can cut things uh but the residents will usually feel that impact you know you get it you feel it in your pocketbook but you also feel it in uh a park that doesn't get upgraded a trail that's not done and there's certain things that's where the first thing that you look to cut and then and again that'll that'll be some residents point that they don't want those things taken out so we do our best and this is what it is I I I agree with Tom there's just not a lot more room unless you want to impact the residents with something else uh Tim David uh 5294 Baldo Boulevard East um I concur with some of the other folks very good presentation very very helpful uh the question is about I know there's some discussions with the city of Whitebear Lake about uh Fire Protection Services and uh I know you cannot give any specifics whatsoever but I guess my question would be uh the fire protection increase of 7.02% does that accommodate or recognize um any outcome that may occur as result to those discussions uh regarding any dollars uh no the the big increase on the fire budget actually occurred in 20 between 2023 and 2024 which is what is being uh a big part of that is being disputed the budget in 2024 and in 2025 does include the amount that's being dis disputed in case I hate to say it our side of the dispute loses and we have to pay what we don't feel we should be okay hi I'm Colleen coin 4156 Park Ridge Drive um for those of us who are retired and me in particular if somebody tells me my costs are going up 9% I have to find 9% in my food budget to cut and in 10 years it'll be too expensive for us to live here so um I'm just saying that that's people take this to heart and are very concerned and if it's 9% this year and 9 or 10% next year and so forth um how do we manage to live here no I I totally understand and get that um when you think of it our our expenditure budget and because it's a Balan budget our Revenue budget uh they're only going up about 7% but because we're becoming fully developed and we're don't have other revenues coming in to offset that as we go forward unfortunately the property tax levy is going to become more and more responsible to pay for even the existing expenditures we had so even without a uh budget increase if you will if we kept expenditures equal because the property tax is going to become more and more of our Revenue Source your taxes would still end up going up which is why there's the difference between the general fund budget going up 7% but the tax levy going up nine the other thing everybody should take into consideration when we're talking to budget almost every one of these meetings for the last four or five years is that we are managing to stay at one of the lowest tax rates in Ramsey County everybody on that list has local government Aid coming in we don't have that um the fact that we're number two low or the lowest second to lowest without that benefit um that our neighbors all have um something that we should be proud about but we understand everybody's paying here but we are our neighbors are getting anywhere between1 and2 million a year in LG we're not uh no actually our state money got cut we went from $12 in 2024 down to $10 for 2025 how much does white well White Bear Lake gets about uh 2.5 million I think in local government aid plus they because we're not a city we don't also qualify for MSA money which is goes towards Road improvements which is why we have to bond for Road improvements so when you think about um other sources of revenue if we are fully developed essentially uh potentially source of Revenue is LGA or MSA so there's an opportunity for the township um at the legislature to try and get some action on that I I know it I'm sure we've been there but uh it's always a changing political world and and uh uh that may be an opportunity to realize some more Revenue yeah no we we have talked to our legislatures uh especially about the LGA uh the MSA money which is the gas tax money uh that is set by Constitution so it will take a little bit more than just our legislator and makes it a little bit more difficult to get any changes done to that uh but we have been pounding on our legislatures about the uh discrepancies in LGA for our neighbors versus us um unfortunately we haven't gotten too far uh the other thing that I know White Bear Lake and I I guess I haven't looked at it recently as to how much revenue they get from it uh but they impose a what is called a franchise uh fee on I think it's just their electric users so it's basically a sales tax on all electric use in their city and we because we're a Township we can't Levy a franchise tax the advantage of a franchise tax versus a property tax even though uh like I say it's basically a sales tax on your electric and gas that you can impose um while the residents would pay it you're also picking up uh tax exempt property so like churches uh the county uh the school district uh they would also have to pay it which would be a revenue source for us but again we're trying to get legislation changed where we could do that uh but so far we haven't been successful after for lack try Jon Stein 5335 Barry Lane so on page 15 it says the increases are from 4.12 to 12.27 per month mine are going up 19435 so why the discrepancy between your report and my taxes is that the total taxes or that's the increase per mon mon on total taxes though no just on just on the town Whitebear Township um well on the tax notices that went out uh we have to certify a levy in September and at that time we still don't have all the numbers from uh generally from our our Sheriff's Department our police uh our fire uh contract uh there's usually some other ones that are kind of floating around that we're still waiting on so we have to send in what is our worst case scenario for a levy because whatever we send in in September we can always lower the levy but we can't go above whatever we send in and so as I said we've cut out like 116,000 from the levy but mine are over $7 more per month but I'm saying that's calculated on a higher tax why isn't there a caveat on that when you made the announcement people are thinking their taxes are only going up $122 and mine are going up 19 yeah yours won't go up 19 that's just the preliminary that's just the preliminary yours is going to go down less sure thank you Larry Stein 5335 bar Lane if I understood your charts right thank you for hearing us tonight by the way I understood your charts right over the last 12 years this Township budget has roughly doubled that's way past the rate of inflation what additional program or projects are we doing today that we didn't do 10 12 years ago roads roads and infrastructure well uh the big one is the infrastructure uh we didn't have a debt Levy uh until 20120 uh the first bond issue we did in a long time was in 2019 uh the other one big increase has been our fire budget uh from the city of White Bear Lake um they've been they've been hit kind of even before their building um they've been hit kind of two ways uh their previous uh city manager made them keep taxes flat for a number of years and used all their reserves and then retired they had no reserves they had to start actually leving taxes for it so so they've had huge tax increases in White Bear Lake which is why they went from second lowest in the county to I think they're like fifth now uh the second part of the fire problem is not just a White Bear Lake problem but kind of Statewide is the fire departments can't get volunteers anymore especially during the daytime so they're slowly ending up converting from a uh volunteer or part-time Department to a full-time Department which obviously adds uh Personnel expenses uh to their budget so those are probably the two biggest areas that we've seen our increases in and my second point is I heard about the ash Bor problem here that's coming from the public works funds uh yeah most of it's on our Park uh properties sure so budgeted in in the parks department should there be a surplus from last winter in the public works area from lack of plowing and lack of snow um thank you no not really because uh what we would save uh from the lack of snow is really the overtime expense uh that we have in public works um which is was some but we you know we have to pre-order our salt our chemicals and so forth uh which we still had a big chunk of it uh we increased the chemicals because uh chemicals you can't really keep that long or they don't work as well as when they're that as they get older um and then like I say the other big one in or the other part of that is the Union contract and wage increase and the Personnel increases why did you have uh that'll affect uh serviceses but we didn't use our services last year did we cut ours uh no because they always there's always other work to be done other questions Bob you want to take it to a vote he thanks Tom it's quite an effort that uh Tom and his staff or Tom is the staff put into this thing so and we well we are having a an addition to a staff but that's for next year we're dealing with this year um if there are there any further questions of Tom there are no easy answers well then the task at hand is to vote on approving the property tax levy for 2025 that amount is 6,212 324 to so to approve that we need a motion from the floor it's make an alternative motion and you'd have to tell me if this is in order um so I think what we've been talking about is not actual cuts to the budget but smaller increases and it looks like the core of the budget Public Safety and Public Works those increases are around somewhere between 7even and 7 and a half per. so I propose that the property tax levy for 2025 be increased by 7.5% and I'm assuming staff can figure out what that number is Tom can you give us an estimate of what that would what that final number would be I can give me a minute or two and your motion is just to apply that reduction to the total budget you're not specifying specific departments or um I was just focusing for now on the motion dealing wither got deal okay well I asked because you mentioned Public Safety and Public Works the driv let's see what time comes up here 7 and a half did you say or S and a half that would read for okay uh to reduce the levy down uh to an increase of 7 and a half would cut or $426,500 okay all right so we do it can I hold on to this for a second um just so I those numbers so there is a motion on the floor to approve a property tax levy for 2025 of 5,786 1174 is that the gist of your motion is there a second to that motion all right a motion has been made and seconded and again that number is for a property tax levy of 5,786 se4 and the reductions you're leaving the reductions to the budget where those reductions would apply you're leaving that to town staff or appr okay all right uh any questions yeah please identify yourself and your address Jim ly 2642 Suzanne Circle so clarification for the whole budget here and maybe you can give us a quick recap here Tom um and we I'll just use your example on fire and in public safety area how much of that is for actually new or expanded services or are we looking at the increase that you are proposing just based on maintenance and inflationary uh it's mainly maintenance and inflationary other than the Emeral ashore um try anything think there yeah I think Emeral ashbo is the only thing we've really built in that we didn't have in the past Tim did you have a question uh I would just like to make a comment that it would be very uh I would not uh be uh interested in suggesting that type of reduction to the township bud budget without knowing what would be cut um I think that'd be pretty significant for us as Township residents to know that and I don't know if there's a process to do that I'm not saying that it shouldn't potentially be evaluated but how would we know um I don't know if I want a reduction in police or fire services or any other services or uh redesign of the um Street infrastructure repair program without knowing it uh what it would look like uh that' be my comment and to the person's point over there and to your response about why is this increasing ha happen happening because it's primarily maintenance and inflation what we are not seeing in this presentation is the increase uh as a result of pricing inflation which I think would help the discussion here um it always sounds like um things are increasing because of potentially more Public Works services or more park services and and I think that's something that's unknown to us why question is the why is it increasing um and my final point would be um 7.5 99.3% My overall Ramsey County property taxes are at 24% so I hope you folks show up next Wednesday at the Ramsey County hearing um that's what we're dealing with in this um public sector industry right now other comments questions those are fixed amounts Steve good uh Steve rusek 5529 Fisher Court besides that our contract our labor rates are set that's a that's a contract also but I'd like to also point out that you you know we expect our citizens we have to remove their Emerald Ash we have a program to get rid of those that Ramsey County has a program to do that it is unfair for the for the township not to also do that U many of you probably have already removed trees or in the process of removing trees it's an expensive process so that's a reality um so just keep that in the back of your mind that I as a board member I we sit and we we debate almost every nickel that is spent for Public Works whether it's a piece of new equipment or not um whether we spend money uh for Township days as an example but I can tell you as a board member if we're going to be asked to cut things those are some services that won't be provided I it's discretionary as Tom said uh movies in the park we get positive feedback from that again it's the whole citizens I I know you're here and you're just like I am you get vote tonight but think of your s fellow citizens also as to what you're asking to do uh so there are very little discretionary actions that we have left to take uh I think we watchh our money very frugally that's all I'll say I mean to give you an idea our general government which I stated before is our uh administrative staff including Finance um elections uh recycling the town board uh planning uh that budget uh is going up 4.9% the uh Public Safety is going up 7.25 uh percent and as uh attorney uh lemons stated uh police and fire are contracted amounts our Public Works uh budget uh other than the Emeral ashor uh issue is going up 5% um again Parks because of the emerald ashor and then those Park improvements that I described uh that's the one that's taken the big increase it's going up 14 uh. 6% and then uh Township day uh is you know as I said it's $48,700 for Township day and movies in the park um so the park uh budget overall is going up 14.37% so that's our big one uh the rest of them are you know uh that the township controls uh are going up about 5% um I mean as Steve said and the other Town board have said uh they've gone through this budget and they've tried to keep it as tight as they can um but uh Tom can I ask you uh can you tell from uh from your spreadsheet when you refer to the percentage increases can you give us a feeling for what those dollars are 14% of the I think you said the park recreation was a 14% increase how many dollars is that uh in Parks uh the [Music] increase you're going Bob while he's working that out um oh yeah a question no just comment as a town board member and we'd get to vote on whatever is voted on on the 16th if this motion is supported we're cutting half a million bucks out of the budget here's what I would recommend Township Day movies in the park supported by the park board gone uh polar Lakes Park improvements parking lot Trails cut they're shot they need to be replaced we're just pushing them down the road uh Red Pine Park bwalk that was a project that was put together by a Boy Scout a volunteer they The Troop built that it was heck of a deal it's shot needs to be replaced we don't have to do it we'll just push it down the road and do it later so and Tom those are some costs that could be cut those in those projects again do you have a specific dollar amount you can or estimate for what those savings would be I do not Dale do you have some preliminary estimates on replacing parking lot question if the Boy Scouts did it once why can't they do it again do you know one sure but my whole point is why are we taking on that infrastructure with maintaining it if the Boy Scouts did it once they should do it again they did it for us in a park and donated it to us your people love to see it so I think we do have to have some reality check on what the dollars we need to get your name and address David record 5294 Baldo Boulevard East I mean if we really are redesigning what this budget looks like $426,000 cut is pretty substantial and it's fair for us as residents to know where is that going to come from potentially um and to the board members note um there are some smaller budget items like Township days and movies in the park are 30,000 things like that but if there is a cut of a parking lot in a trail at 30300 some thousand that's a significant chunk that would get us closer to $426,000 but I think it's fair for us to know are we going to lose that Improvement to Polar Lakes Park and it's going to cost us x amount of dollars X number of years down the road so and again I'll go back to my question is is there a process for us as Township residents to understand where these potential cuts of $426,000 would come before we make a vote tonight well let me first of all go back to the original question on uh what a 14% uh increase in the Parks is that's $139,000 um is the increase um where the cuts would come from uh like it Tom just said it probably would come from uh Township day and movie in the Parks being uh eliminated at least for uh 2025 uh Park improvements uh that's probably the other can that would get kicked down the road um uh the board could uh decide to push off a road Improvement project and not issue a bond in in 2025 which would then affect your the the first time we'd Levy for that Bond would be 2026 but it again it would increase the taxes in 2026 but again uh we use Town Reserve and stuff to do the road projects uh so um I don't know moderator we got one right over here as an examp I'll say one more example you know this year in their 2024 plans and Tim you are sitting on the Park Board residents came and asked for a pickle ball court that's $30,000 that's discretionary those kind of projects will be gone it'll be just the bare bones there is not a lot left to cut if we're asked to cut I can tell you as a board member we'll look everywhere we can and meet that budget we but it is pretty Bare Bones as it exists uh you know it's infrastruct it's it's the quality of life that you want in the township as as a community you have to decide what is important to you Parks Trails roads I would hope those are important to us basic fire protection Basic Police Protection or Sheriff's protection got to have them but we don't control those costs we have very little dollars of discretionary income that we can control so if you want to know where we're going to cut I think the staff and and the board are the ones that are ultimately going to decide it I mean it's just the way it is keep in mind that under the statute the town residents you're called electors by the way under the statute you simply set the levy how that money is allocated is strictly up to the board the board has a statutory power to do that not not the citizens I understand you're you're looking at you're focusing on certain programs but in the end it's the board that decides how that how those cuts are met and again one other point you don't have any discretion regarding police or fire those are contracts and they are a substantial part of your budget and Mr moderator I would just point point out that the oh Greg hubinger 5476 baligo Boulevard East I would just point out again that the proposal here is a 7 and a half% increase in the levy so at if that if that increase is applied across the entire budget Public Safety is fully funded Public Works is fully funded General Administration is fully funded so and the uh parks and wreck is funded at half of the request of in requested increase so instead of a $140,000 increase it's a $70,000 increase so Parks and Rec would get $70,000 less than what you what you proposed in that case $70,000 less but they have $60,000 left an increase pardon me an increase yes okay uh parliamentarian brings up a good point you it's [Music] concept here is with Township residents voting on the issue on the levy but again by Statute the town board has the responsibility and the authority to make the specific individual corrections to the budget itself that's correct okay so this is simply a gross amount and how that gross amount is distribut is up to the uh board statutorily okay any other comments so the motion on the floor had a second yeah we have a second yeah so the motion on the floor is to reduce Mr moderate you should close the discussion and go and move for a vote close discussion uh all right is there a motion to close the discussion is is there a motion to close the discussion is there a second okay so that makes the motion on the floor to approve a levy of 5,786 th000 $786,000 74 so those in favor of the motion vote on this we should do by I and hand so you can count we got a pretty even split here is just going to call for an i and then go to show of hands but let's go right to the show of hands those in favor of the motion please raise your hand those opposed eight uh the Nays have it 8 to four so that motion is not approved so we still have an issue on the floor an open issue of adopting a new tax levy for 2025 and what's suggested in the agenda is 6,212 324 is there a motion make a motion motions made is there a second I'll second motion has been seconded is there any further discussion on this motion yes Hold [Music] On Again Jim L suzan Circle little clarification you sent this budget to the state or whoever earlier in September and uh that was the high end this one is reduced I think from that and I'm not sure I heard how much um so if we set this budget tonight can we ask the town board and administration to look again and see if we can reduce it a little bit more not saying we you have to I'm just asking can we ask that question of you and uh I I feel confident the board has done a good job I've lived here 35 years and I think they've done a great job all over those 35 years but I think I understand the residents and I'm one of those that the taxes went up big time this year and I'd like to see let's look at the finer points if possible as a citizen you always have the right to uh appear at board meetings and and bring this issue up open time uh at board meetings allows you to bring up any subject you want which would include this the answer to the simple answer to that question is yes they we have the way the property tax system works so that Ramsey County can send out the notices that you all received about this meeting and the County's meeting and the school district's meeting and so forth we all have to certify a preliminary Levy by September 30th whatever we certify on September 30th is what they use in those notices and we can lower the levy when we get to as we're getting to this point but we can't go above whatever was sent in uh so whatever is approved tonight the board can lower but they can't again go above whatever would be approved now the tricky part with with the board reviewing it and trying to lower it further is the board's next meeting is December 16th 16th and that's their last meeting of the year they've got to pass a resolution certifying the levy and we've got to send that to the county by the end of the year um if we don't it defaults back to the preliminary Levy that we sent in September um so we've got a very short window for the board to do that but the answer is yes Tom clarify that for me you say the default is the preliminary estimate yeah yes or and not what's voted on tonight if we if we do not certify if the board does not approve and certify a levy at their next uh Town board meeting we would would not be able to send a new Levy down to the county which would then default us to the September Levy so they've got to pass a resolution accepting some Levy whether it be what was approved in September or this one tonight or whatever the residents set it at tonight they have to the board has to approve it at their next town board meeting because it'd be their last meeting of the year so if this number of 6,212 th000 is approved tonight are you saying the board still could have some discussion that would allow it to be reduced by the time it gets certified by the state they could at their next town board meeting okay okay and then they would have to pass a resolution at that meeting or whatever right but the point reflect whatever yeah but the point of this is is a maximum at this point also be yes with the option to be reduced if the board takes such action at its next meeting yes thank you Greg hubinger 5476 B go Boulevard is it might be helpful if that if the action requested indicated clearly that what we are approving is the maximum Levy not the levy well like I say it's difficult for the board to really do any more adjusting to it because by Statute their next meeting is what' you say the date was the the 16th uh which is their last meeting of the year um and by Statute if they meet in between now and then it would be an illegal meeting would it not well no it would not be an illegal meeting but we would have to schedule a special meeting to require special notice under the statute but how long 3 days you have to provide under the statute to call a special meeting there has to be 3 days public notice of the meeting okay and also there has to be one other thing couple other things too first of all if you do schedule a special meeting it's the subject has to be set ahead of time and that's the only subject that can be discussed but I mean to clarify the point here is tonight Tom we're actually setting the maximum a ceiling for the board the B can almost go below it can't go above it right does that answer I think that answer question I think excuse me all right any other comments one more question John waswick 5242 Lake View Avenue um looking at the valuation uh as part of the um proposed valuations of homes and such our valuation went up uh [Music] $51,000 how much does that drop dve the increase in the property taxes is that just at Ramsey County level or is that across the board oh no that'd be across the board uh because your market value um like I say they convert it to tax capacity and so forth It's convoluted thing I can calculate it out for you but everybody's tax rate is applied to that so uh as I said the Township's tax rate uh right now as we have it proposed is 26 four something five something I think uh Ramsey County has a tax rate of whatever theirs is uh school district has theirs you add up all those tax rates and you come out to the I think for the township I think it's around 108% or something like that which is then multipli by your market value to come up with your total property taxes so some of those increases then are almost like an automatic increase they we don't you don't have you you set a a rate but the rate is basically still this drives part of that that increase in those property taxes that under understand you do have the right to appeal your tax valuation Yeah well yeah definitely a different meeting right let's be clear you don't appeal it at a meeting here you have to appeal it to this to the county there's a there's a procedure for that but it is part of the driver that's what I was trying to get across not all these pieces in here are are voted on I mean somebody looked at a valuation they looked at sales of homes which have been pretty high in valuations and and so that's driven everybody's up no matter if their house is really worth that much or not it's it's it's artificially driven up so that's part of the part of the issue we deal with in all of this as well cuz I know our our property taxes overall are going up uh almost 177% so yeah thank you and if you have those statements I can calculate out what it is on the what your increase would be for the at least for the township on the 6 million yeah hey is there a motion to close the discussion for a second is there a motion okay then we call for a motion to approve the 25 ta property tax levy at 6 million2 I'm sorry yeah 6, 22,32 those in favor please before we do that Mr parliamentarian can the moderator vote he is a Township sure of course he can okay anyone who's here that's a citizen you know resident of the township can vote okay anyway back to it thank you all right those in favor of the motion please raise your hand one eight you get eight yep those opposed to the motion please pleas your raise your hand one two three four five I think those opposed please raise your hand one two right three four okay so the motion is approved by the vote of 8 to4 okay that's that agenda item the next agenda item is to recommend the general fund budget which is proposed at 76 million 74,900 is there a motion to approve that recommended general fund budget is there a second there's a second all right are there any questions or comments y just at to talk loud just just to clarify what we're doing is recommending a budget and the board can do whatever it wants to with the actual budget itself that correct correct you're just making a recommendation that the budget uh be at least that amount no actually no more than that amount no more yeah no more it's a ceiling again it's a ceiling again yeah okay any other discussion all right uh I'll call for a vote then those in favor of recommen those in favor of the recommended general fund budget at 6,740 979 those in favor please raise your hand8 99 okay those opposed please raise your hand one two okay that motion passes 9-2 all right the next item on the agenda is to schedule a date time and location for the 2025 special town uh budget meeting and the recommendation is for Monday December 1st at 7:00 at this location and with an alternate date of Wednesday December 3rd at 7 o' also at this location is there a motion to adopt those recommendations is there a second motion's made and seconded if there's no discussion I'll call the question those in favor please say I I I any opposed that motion passes is there any other [Music] business if not I will call for a motion to adjourn the meeting is there a second second we are adjourned