I will call to order the regular meeting of the uh Dayton uh city council of June 10. Stand for the pledge to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. All right. I need a motion and second for the agenda. So moved. Go ahead, Jeff. Oh, I'll second it. Thanks, Scott. Any changes, discussion? All those in favor say I. I. All those opposed say no. Motion carries four to zero. Uh should we um do we have to normally let people know that like Dave's gone or did Amy? Okay. Nope. Um to do that item mayor if he's promoting or participating remotely then we have to read him in. Yep. So otherwise Nope. Okay. Um consent. I need a motion in a second. Did you want to pull that thing out Scott? Yeah. I want to talk about it which I'm trying to figure out which one it is. It's I I just want to have a small little discussion about I going to pull I out and put it after open form. After open form. Yeah. Okay. So consent is uh with that amendment. I need a motion. A second. I'll make the motion. Second. Okay. Discussion. Uh, let's see. I'm not going to beat anybody up. I'm wondering and I see the two estimates. I I get it. Um, um, I guess my beef is and maybe I need a beef, but I took about 15 20 minutes and uh, searched for some playgrounds on online. Oh, we're going to talk about that. Are you on I? I'm on I. Oh, okay. We're going to get to that. Yeah. Yeah. So no consent discuss the rest of them. Okay. I have nothing on anything else. I don't have anything. I'm good. Nothing. Okay. I didn't think so. All those in favor say I. I. I. All those opposed say no. Motion carries four to zero. Now uh let's do open form first. Anybody here for open form? Limited to three minutes for non-aggenda items. State your name and address. No council action will be taken. Items will be referred back to staff. Okay. Thank you, sir. Lee Hawquist. I live at 11471 Fernbrook Lane. Um, just back here with some of the same concerns. Biggest concern I've got right now is traffic. Um they're not stopping coming out of Rush Creek. And today they're not stopping coming out of 113th for Fernbrook. And you know, if you're going to make it a roundabout, make it a roundabout, tear the signs down, whatever you're going to do. But it's just getting risky to get down there. Uh so I and I've talked to the mayor. I've talked to a couple people on the council and I've talked to police chief about it. And I think something's got to be done out there because I don't think at least no one was killed should be our safety standard there. Uh there was a bad accident there a couple weeks ago. uh and they're going to be more frequent. So anyway, that was that. I hope you take that into consideration whenever. Uh drainage is still an issue at my house. My neighbors basically can't cut their ditches because there's sometimes there's up to 4 inches of water out there. And um I think that should be addressed before we go much further with it with all the other digging. So, and speaking of I don't know what the hours are out there, but they were out there working this morning with their with their road mo or earth moving equipment at 6:40. And I think 640 is a little unreasonable for me because they're still working at 7:00. Um, it basically has denied me my backyard and it's not making me a happy camper here. So, I think it should be addressed. And um again on the water um you guys can't guarantee a fix for the problem and neither can Tom. So I think something needs to be addressed there. Uh there's moving equipment. Yeah. And I you know that's probably all I got to complain about, but I want to make sure my complaints are heard. Um Lee, just just as an example, just so um moving forward, give the police a call even though it seems like it's not it's not an emergency. I'll give the police a call and they can go out and um How about if I call you? Sure, you can most certainly call me 6:30 in the morning or whatever. I don't know. Um you can call me as well if you'd like, but the police are able to go out there and then enforce the um city code, which is 7 to 7. I'm not really optimistic that that's going to happen. I mean, you can't enforce the traffic laws here. So, okay. You certainly won't if you don't call. Huh? You certainly won't if you don't call. Yeah. So, it just seems uh it doesn't seem like it's a 911 emergency call. It's just a really irritating kind of call cuz But it's documented. Yeah. Mhm. 911 is the best way to call about a noise complaint and they'll Okay. Just say it's a non-emer. You call 911, say it's non-emergency, and they'll take all your information for a noise complaint. Okay. Best way to call is 911. Um, like I say, I had a school bus pull out in front of me one day and nobody seems to care about that. It's on the traffic side of it. Uh it's not funny out there and you and you guys are getting ready to approve a motion that's going to triple the traffic on that road and there needs to be some kind of traffic control out there before you do that. Okay. We we have been working with the county correct on that. So and there are some ideas correct. So we are ideas that's like the concept I hate to see cynical but we're not just not doing nothing. I guess we are steps are we are we are I know government works at the speed of a glacier but glaciers can wear down mountains right so inch by inch year by year there's some stop signs that we've been told yeah you mentioned that and I appreciate that uh like I say I know that if I don't speak up nothing happens and uh again people are you know on the the dating pages they're saying well at least no one was killed well that's not the standard that's not really the standard I'm aiming for here especially because I live on that road. But anyway, that's what I am and hope I didn't offend anybody, but Nope. All right. Thanks. Thank you. Have a fun evening. Uh, anybody online? Mr. Mayor, members council, we have nobody in online. Okay, we will close up on then. Um, on item I, approval of playground equipment area 21. I forgot what I was going to say. Do you want us to go over slides at all or? No, I guess my only point is and I know we've worked with this outfit before and I know staff likes working with them. I just personally think that this particular playground is a lot of money for what we're getting and there's a lot more playground for about 40 grand. Uh the swing set is about four at at this other out. You me go to the pictures? We do have them on this. Yep. I know we do cuz I they're in the packet anyway. I'm on. Here we go. This is the one game time, right? I mean, we can have something similar for this with but with a bigger that little play area right there is probably 15 grand. Is it ADA compliant? Yep. I mean, the for $40,000 you can have one three times that size and we still be $40,000 under this budget. I guess is my point. I mean, is it sticking with game time you're looking at or are you looking at addition a different vendor? It's a different vendor. Okay. Is it one of the other ones that we Nope. Okay. Nope. I just sent out that layout, that oval. Um, this one. Yep. Okay. And I was hoping to get the uh quote tonight. Uh, I did talk to the guy and he didn't give me the written formal formal quote. Uh but we're looking at probably for that same thing because the people want the uh zip line and they want the little swing and the play area. The play area I'm guessing is about 20 by 24 isn't as a circle. Mhm. So I don't know if the $30,000 play area would even fit in there. Maybe it's too big. Yeah. I don't know. Who are you dealing with? Which company? Pro Playground. Pro Playground. Pro Playground. Okay. Why didn't they submit a bid? because it's in another state. They don't know nothing about us. So, how I was just surfing online and that's who I found. So, I just started looking at all I've got five or six different pictures of their playgrounds and they're from 30 to 40 grand and this whole package is is 100 and a quarter installed. Mhm. I did that include installation freight if they're in another state. Yep. We can have similar to that whole deal for like 65 $70,000. But if you stick with Sorry, which you want to go? You want to go back forward? No, that's fine. It does. It really doesn't matter. That's I'm just Does it matter if we if I give you that contact and you look at a couple things? I mean, the park department just approved this thing. Yeah. Last week. And I would like to try and get this um approved tonight if we can and and get this uh moving um because we need to get it installed this year and there's going to be I've been told there's going to be some increasing costs, you know, for tariff costs and all that good stuff. So I will s certainly look at that the other company if you send me the details, but I would like to do get this one in. Oh, we'll put a playground in there without a doubt. Yeah. And maybe cap it at 100 and a quarter. Yeah. So that would be I'm just saying that we can get it done. So that would be my comment to council is that I would like to have some sort of if you're going to approve something give us a cap dollar amount of here's what you're looking to do and then we either do this and or some other plan from pro playground or whatever it is. But that way we at least have an approval tonight so that way city staff can keep moving forward on a day-to-day basis. That makes sense. Yeah. So it's either g you know I think it's game time or pro pro playground is what we would use and then it's going to be capped at x number of dollars. So, I'll make a motion to approve it at whatever that bid is 125 12579401 low quote. Can I ask a question? You certainly can. If I get a second, then you can second. All right. Now, you can Sorry. This is this one of those circumstances where we pick the lowest bid? No. Or is it just they could have picked the other one? Kind of an informal. That's what this is. I mean, there was two bids. We did. No. And is that why you picked this playground was because it was the lowest bid? Yeah, that's generally what we do. We go for the lowest bid on these. Um, and it also included all the elements that the neighborhood were looking for. Okay. And yeah, so in the future, if we'd like to do something differently, we can do best value method, which doesn't have to be picked the lowest bidder. It's based on a value that you see is best. And that's typically how I've seen communities do playgrounds. Um, but because we're always limited by budget dollars in Dayton, it ends up always being lowest bidder process. And it's the way we bid out the items. It's what we put in the documents when we bid them out. It says that it's, you know, if we do best value, then a company may come in with something that's a little more expensive or whatever because they feel like that's a better value than would be something on their base. Um, but how we send our bid documents out is based on what method we're going to use, best value or lowest bidder. Okay. That's exactly why I'm asking because these parks in my mind are very different from each other. Like looking at like which one my son would run over and want to play with like right now um and like wouldn't be able to hold him back. Like they're very different. I mean the prices are very different. I was just wondering if this is one of those circumstances where you have to go with the lowest bid or is that um just the one that we picked because it fit within the bud. I mean obviously the budget matters. I you know what I'm asking. Yeah. Okay. I think currently based on our bid document we would go with the lowest bidder because that's what we said we were doing. Because that's what we're said we were doing. Yeah. In the future if we don't we'd have to say that in upfront. Yes. In our bid document we would put out and say best value method is going to be used on this product. So that way the they might come back and I'll use game time as an example or pro playground. They might come back with two different designs of here's our lower bid one and here's something that's you know $25,000 more but it gives you right you know x number of dollars more. We give them a cap and say like you don't ever want to give them a number. Nope. Never want to give them a number. So it's always they could give us some ridiculous that there's no way in heck we're going to we could reject them all, right? Yep. Okay. So the issue that we have on this particular bid is the other outfit. I forget the name of it now. They didn't even follow this plan. Midwest Playcapes. All three plans are different. Yeah. And that's possibly why the numbers are different. I mean Yeah. I mean, usually what you do is you give them the the um area that, you know, you have allocated for it and they have safety rules and safety areas that they got to abide by. Um, and pretty much they can put in what they want. Um, and a lot of times they'll try and put in a lot more stuff. Um, but it might not be the stuff. Yeah. Like a zipline takes up a lot of space. Y So, but that's what a requirement of this part playground was. Well, I get it. We have one too in our park and it's great. Thank you, Marty. In the future, which we won't have a park for a little while now, in the future, if we want to do something differently, then we just got to make sure it's noted by council before we send out those bid documents. Okay. Thank you. Yep. I'll forward that information in the morning. Okay. Any more discussion? All those in favor say I. I. All those opposed say no. Motion carries four to zero. Um on to staff consultant council update. Zack. Yes. Uh good evening mayor, members of council. Only have one update tonight. Um just let everybody know that we have two openings on our parks commission that we'll be posting on our website. I think we posted it today or maybe yesterday. Um we will contact the current commission members that are um their term is being completed and ask if they want to reapply. But I'm likely looking to reappoint parks commission members hopefully in July. Um so there's two up. There is two of them. They did not resign. They just their term is over. So we will say you can most certainly reapply um and then the council will decide based on the timing of when we have those it's about a month typically so it' be probably the second meeting in July being as the parks commission sounds like their meeting is canceled um in July it won't be affect um term you know obviously with the city and missing a meeting right away but one of them did say at the meeting last week that he was not going to okay what what's going on with the planning opening We've had zero. We have one applicant. Okay. Was that today or? No. So there there should be a second one coming in today. So there that will be appointed at the next meeting in June. So that one will be posted at the end of May. Hopefully we can get that approved or appointed in the second June meeting. Yes. Yeah. With the council so that they can attend the first July meeting. This always sneaks up on staff every single year. I don't know why it's so sneaky, but it just does. midyear expiration. I guess that's all I got. Thank you. Um on the Yep. on the and I don't know if it's for you or so um because planning commission also will have a spot. Planning commission has one opening currently. One opening but there's another one but isn't there another one who's expiring or whose term is up? Um maybe I'm jumping the gun on this. No. So the the uh commissioner who resigned his term was up a month later. Yeah. After his resignation. Yes. But is there a second one whose term is up? Okay. Just one. Just one open. So it happened to be the one person whose term was up is the one who resigned a month ago. I just thought there was always two and two, but no. Okay. Um and the EDA still has one. EDA still has one. Yes. So there are commission openings. Please apply if you have any interest. Um, sorry for jumping ahead of the Do we have any anything as far as Rush Creek that is solidified or Rush Creek? Say that one more time. Rush Creek discussions with the county on Rush Creek. Um, so we have um had Yeah. So we have not had a rockolid plan. We do know that they are going to install stop signs at Rush Creek Parkway and Fernbrook. So that is an update for residents and council. I know I let the council know. We have confirmed that they are going to do it. We are not confirmed in the timeline yet is the um okay issue that we have. We have suggested to do it during the same time that they have Fernbrook closed because Fernbrook will be closed here at the end of June for roughly three weeksish somewhere in there while they hook up Maple Grove Parkway to um Fernbrook and then um remove the south leg of Fernbrook that connects up to 81. So it's closed right now. Why? It is closed currently due to Excel Energy's work that is being done in the rightway. So they're adding some sort of what do they call it? Culvert work conduit. There you go. But it's not going to be closed. Just northbound Fernbrook is just northbound. Yes. 81. Okay. And then once this will be a full closure further to the north. This will be full closure of Fernbrook. Okay. Well, and it makes sense to change traffic all at the same time. That was our that was our suggestion to the c the county. It doesn't mean that the county will listen to us again, but we our suggestion is if it's going to be closed already, it would be a good time to put in install new signs so that they are all at a new time. Um and then Fernbrook essentially from uh where they connect to Maple Grove Parkway to 81 will be severed. So you will not be able to go north on Fernbrook anymore from 81. You have to go to Maple Grove Parkway. So Oh, okay. Just so that everyone is aware. Well, that will change my daily commute. You will go to Maple Grove Maple Grove Parkway instead of by the high school. Yes. Yeah. It's about a thousand feet. Yep. Not much, but that's all I have. Thank you very much. Morning. Uh just a couple of things. So the wellhead treatment plant is still moving along. Uh they work on roof insulation. They're going to be doing interior painting with walls, joists, and the tanks uh through this week and next week, and they're doing some prep work for the masons to return and do the uh outside brick work. Uh parks, the irrigation project is going through. Um they're moving along one park at a time. Uh they've done some work in Hayden Hills. They are nearly complete in Stevens. Um, River Hills, they're working in there. Um, public works is working at Iron Gardens to make it more mower friendly and do some rellandscaping in there. Um, once we're complete with that, they'll be doing the irrigation stuff in there. Um, the biggest holdup we have at the moment is the uh electric companies getting power to the uh the the wells and stuff. So, that's what I'm holding on on those at the moment. That's all I have. Good evening, mayor and members of council. Uh we interviewed seven candidates. We moved uh four forward and then we actually have kind of a late entry. So we'll see if that uh one is able to be able to move forward here. Uh I'll be doing physical agility with them tomorrow. Evening, mayor, members of the council. Uh just a reminder, I sent out an email July 16th for the um training for city council and some staff um from 1 to 3. Um, we'll keep on reminding you, but I'll need a final number um, come roughly June 28th for that day um, so we can set up a schedule. Um, our staff has worked with the city of Corkran and City of Rogers Police Departments um, on active shooter training. They just attended um, all officers from our agency attended last Tuesday and Thursday. Um it was four hours of walkth through and then four hours of active um training scenariobased training. So that was completed. Uh thank you. Regarding the A3 district, we did get some feedback from the Met Council. Um so we will be bringing forward an amendment to both the comp plan and the ordinance. Does Amy looked at that? um mayor still and uh she has looked at it but she has not provided any guidance or anything back. She said she's received it. We sent it to her today. So, okay. She has not, I would say, dug into it yet. No updates here. Okay, Scott. I'm signed up. Uh let's see. Outside of that, I don't really have anything though. signed up for all pulsing. Yeah. The shooter. Active. What is that, by the way? What? The active shooter thing that the officers went through or that you guys are going to go through? Yes, that we're going to go through. Uh, it'll be basically shoot no shoot scenarios. Um, so you'll be shooting into you'll have a scenario. Um, you'll have suspects. Um, and you'll have to make a decision whether to shoot or not shoot the suspect. Oh, okay. And then we'll incor incorporate uh at the final one an officer involved shooting. Um where one of you will go through the whole gamut of an officer involved shooting. You don't get to target on me. Sorry. Sorry. Just kidding. I know it's a big disappointment. I'm sure. Well, depending where we are in the budget conversation. Exactly. That's what I mean. I'm well aware it was applicable to tonight. I know. Yeah. I just wanted to shout out to our police department and some of our amazing residents in the north metro uh or in the north of Dayton. Um some ecoins got out this morning. Uh two meals, a donkey and a horse. Um so but everyone was safely contained and got back to their proper places. So, I just um the c everyone did an amazing job. And so, I just wanted to shout out to the police force, but also some of our community members who stepped up to help um um in that in that it was a a very it was 6 a.m. in the morning getting your door pounded on and be like, "Hey, are your horsees missing?" It was a little jarring, but um I'm I'm glad everyone got safely home, but you guys did a great job. So, shout out to that. So, um and I'm it might be coming up later, but Thursday is our family fun night. Um correct? So, excited about that. Um, so just wanted to in case it wasn't I didn't see it on the agenda. So I just wanted to make sure that we got that out there. I hope everyone can come out and join that night. That's it for me. I do have something. Um, so last Wednesday I attended um, North Memorial's um, data walk. Oh yeah. It was really great. Okay. Um, so it was in Maple Grove. Um, and it was a couple, um, different council members from like the area and then a bunch of mental health and then just regular health and just a bunch of people getting together. Um, so it's just exploring like the regional health data and then helping guide the community health planning. So it was really interesting. They kind of highlighted four different areas. Um, so like infant death, um, mental health, um, chronic illness, and then 911 calls versus, um, utilizing a primary care provider. Um, so those are like the key things that they keep seeing. And so it was getting feedback and just kind of bouncing ideas off and, um, helping to guide their community plan. So it was really great. I really enjoyed it. And, um, if they have another one, I would definitely go again. Fantastic. I will do it if they have another. It honestly, it was really great to see the data. And then um they even had you know how often um our residents are using like their hospitals um so they're our primary ambulance service but we don't fall in their top we most people go to Mercy instead. So, we've got dual. So, it's um North Memorial is our primary and then Alina Health is our secondary, but we have more of our um North Memorial bringing people to Mercy than we do have using utilizing their hospitals. And part of that is that Mercy has that really great cardiac unit. They've got different units in Maple Grove has a lot of um births. Um but it was really interesting to see that Dayton was literally blacked out on the map. Like it was like showing all the areas and then Dayton was like cut out of the circle. So yeah, it was just it was really interesting and I learned a lot. So it was great nice to advocate for what we're seeing in our community and just again learning a whole lot. So and as I'm going to add last Thursday I met with uh Kevin Anderson to talk about Fern seems like things are moving forward and he was optimistic about a roundabout at Rush Creek. So, um, and then, uh, last Friday, uh, we talked with Danny Doo at the car show and he suggested and I pushed the button a little bit about getting some funding for for some amenities at Stevens Park. So, we'll see what happens there. See how much hot air is involved. All right, I'll do action items. Hill. Evening, mayor and council. This isn't an item that I was expecting to have to bring to you guys, but um unfortunately here we are. Um we um in the staff report outlines pretty much what the situation is. The two fire suppression tanks that we have in this uh public workshop uh were designed and built uh for that specific purpose. um they um uh they met all the requirements and inspections at that time. Um since then we have had um one of the flanges on one of the uh let me see if I can find it on the left that that is a leaking flange. Um, I've been trying to see if we can get that actually replaced, but the company manufacturer these, the fabricators won't guarantee the tank. If they actually have to cut the tank, they need to um install it at the time of fabrication, especially as it's a fire uh relief tank. Um, this has been getting steadily worse um over over a period of time. Um and the second one um is a a major leak that happened earlier this year. Um the tank has just split and I no idea how that split. Um what we are talking about is this pipe work you can see is pretty rigid in there. There's no room for the tank to flex at all. How is there not an expansion joint somewhere along the line there? It's a metal pipe. Exactly. And it was put in further recommendation. Right. So I'm not I we just got to sold a bill a bill of goods. That's all. But I mean it's it's to their would be to it it seems odd that there wasn't some sort of expansion mechanism in place there per their design. I mean it's their tank. You'd think they want to protect it from pipes. I I would have expected that would have been one of the common work practices for this type of tank. And I mean that area stays pretty constant, right? Temperature- wise. Um, in the summer it can get pretty elevated in there. Um, steel. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, in the winter it's never below 60° in there. I think I looked up. Steel tank or poly tank? Poly. That's what I thought. 70,000 bucks. It's been there for five years, right? Yeah. No big deal. 15,000 a year. That's a horrible ROI, but that sounds great. We'll use that later. If it was my 15,000 a year, we didn't know any better when we asked them for their opinion. I mean, that's the problem that we have. We don't know any better and we just take somebody's word for it. Are we using the same to fix it? Got it. There's a uh we use a different company for the pipe work, but the tanks are supplied by the same company because they're the major manufacturer of those tanks um in the country, would you believe? So, they basically have a monopoly and they can sell crap and no one has a choice. Yep. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, you go with a different company, but the cost of that different company are astronomical difference. So, I just Yeah. I don't know. I have a feeling the problem is both are manufacturing defect defects but 61 it doesn't we tried we did try that avenue first it wasn't like beam it don't have it's like any other warranty or any even even past the warranty it's no you misuse the product it's just that's how that works I mean you to Scott's point I don't have the expertise to know fire suppression systems that well you go with a general contractor and a fire design company this is just equipment. It's not no different than going with Black and Beach. They're the same thing. We're we're we're relying on them to give us the right stuff. Mhm. The the one that's got a seam split. Did you just drain that and leave it? Yeah, it's drained at the moment. So, we don't have a full fire suppression system operational there. Or would be, which is why we're back here asking for it. Yeah. No, I get it. And I we're stuck with it, but it's just this is like that well thing. It's like it's irritating. Yeah. You drilled down too far and you're charging outside. You made a crappy tank and now you're making us buy a new one. Yeah. You know, I don't know what's the size of this. How many gallons? They're 10,000 gallons. 10,000 gallons. So, there's quite a lot of pressure inside there as well. So, 10 times more than the store. And we don't have any choice. Are those tanks pressurized? No, it's just gravity. Just gravity. Well, then put them on a ceiling or No. Why? This seems kind of weird, but why would you go with the same company for a tank that holds 10,000 gallons just because they call themselves a fire suppression company? Can't you use There's got to be I mean, even septic tanks. I mean, I mean, the the um these are designed specifically for fire suppression. Um I know, but I don't know what that means. If it's just gravity, I don't know why it matters, but I don't have a problem with it. I just The whole thing kind of irritates me. It's just irritating. Well, it's not your fault. It's like Yeah, this is not This is a crappy take. And we got two crappy takes. So, now we're going to put in two more years. We'll do it again. Hopefully they're Well, hopefully the flex piping gives it a bit of movement. You know what? I think I did the math on that. I It I think over 100° you only have a third of an inch per 100 ft or something like that. Okay. So, I don't think it's flexing of the Okay. And and even so, if they thought there was a problem, you'd think somewhere down there they would put in an expansion. But, so I think the bottom line is it's crappy tanks and they're making excuses. Whatever. I'm good. You want me to do a Google Google search for another tank? It's It's looked like it wasn't just the tank, right? It's the labor to put it in and all that. No, it's it's uh the quot includes taking putting the tanks in, taking the old ones out, disposing of them, changing the pipe work, and adding some extra support on the pipes and stuff like that. I'll make a motion to approve. Yeah, we're going with the MEI, MI, whatever it is. MBI. Yeah. I need a second. Second. Any more discussion? Can we write a like an angry Google review of them? Whatever you want. All right. All those in favor say I. I. All those oppos say no. Motion carries four to zero. On item M. Good evening, mayor and members of council. Looking to approve the personnel policy update. appreciate the comments this um today related to when you make a word document into PDF it takes away all the red coloring and I apologize about that. I didn't realize that until you know got an email and said hey there's no red coloring and I'm like okay that makes sense. So um the main reason why is we're just continue to look at policies and procedures as much as possible. The personal policy is always the first one we look at every single year to make sure we're following state legislation and following all of the um new changes with laws. Um there was obviously a new law drug and alcohol portion that we wanted to make sure was added. This isn't any different than any other other community. Um we don't um we didn't have a alcohol portion of the policy before. We've always been a drug-free workplace but not an alcohol portion. We have we've done more than our personal policy has allowed us to do and just historically because we've known that we want to make sure our insurance is good and such. So like testing people when they if an accident happens we have to test. Well that wasn't technically in our policy before even though we did it. we weren't really supposed to. So, trying to match what our operations are to our policy is always good. And the last one, policies need to match. Yep. That's why we're updating the policy tonight. And then the second part of that update is leave of absences. Um we don't have a lot of these anyways, but um for whatever reason um that may be we um should always want to take care of our employees when they're taking a leave of absence. And if that means that they need to disconnect from work because they're going to take care of a family member or they're taking care of themselves, we should support that and emphasize that taking the time to give your stuff in is the most important thing so that you can focus on yourself while you're gone. So those are the two reasons and changes for the personal policy. This was written by um Amy Schmidt, the drug and alcohol policy um and that's based on other communities that came works with. to stand for any questions. Boring thing to read motion in a second. Can I ask a question before after the motion? Before the motion. Okay, fine. Sorry, I got really you were like moving ahead. Hold on. Um, I have an issue with you two. Yep. Oh, okay. Um, I have a question about the cannabis piece of this. Yep. And the cannabis testing. Okay. Um, so if you move through all of this and you go through all the boring reading, um, down at the bottom it talks about what are they considered? Um, my mind is blank. I apologize. um peace officers, firefighters, and again that's not the only reason, but I have a question about how much we're supposed to mandate what people do on their time off. So in there it says no use even when you're not on duty or responding or you're not working. So my question is is like I know that we have to say something in here but I guess I have an somewhat of an issue with mandating what people do on their free time when they're not on but you're talking about see I reading through that is you almost need Amy in some of some of these cases but are you talking about if testing shows something later? Yeah. So it says that they're not prohibit prohibited even off duty to partake in any So you could not go to a wedding or you couldn't go down to the liquor store, pick up some alcohol in one aisle and a THC drink in the next aisle. Go home. I'm on I'm working 3 days from now. You could not do that. It would be never can you have any of those beverages is how this is written because they're considered safety. No, it's a it's a public safety employee thing. Yeah. And they're dictated or mandated by federal law and not state law. Yeah. Well, they're not federal employees though. So, and the state statute says that if you don't have to make that your at the city level, you have to say that it is can be used off duty. However, it is prohibited during duty hours or when you're responding. So, I looked up the state statute. So, I just like personally I'd like clarification on that because again, I understand that we should all be able to say don't show up to work after you've been drinking. Don't show up to work after you've, you know, taken any sort of impaired substance, which is legal in our state. Um, but I guess I have an issue with telling people blanketly that you cannot do this on your vacation or you can't, you know, go to a wedding and have a drink that's completely legal that's THC because we're going to test you 3 weeks from now and then we're going to punish you or terminate you because you tested positive at any point when we can't say, "Did you drink that this morning? Did you have that 3 weeks ago? Cuz there's no way to know about like alcohol where I can tell you had a drink five minutes ago if you test. Y. So that's just my my point of view is I don't feel like you should tell somebody what they can and cannot do with their free time if it's legal. And I understand again that they're trying to protect themselves from you're showing up to a let's say a fire call because that's my world. That's Yeah. It's are you impacted when you're on the duty and that's the Yeah. on every other employee in the city. It is not it is a we and I would not disagree with you in saying that we don't want to control what people do on their free time. That was one of the things that Amy and I Amy Benting and I went back and forth on of we both agreed that it's important that we don't tell people what to do on their free time. That is their own free time. They can do what they'd like. However, with public safety employees is where the only line is drawn and it's not I'm going to say real clear on direction from the state level on specifically public safety employees because if you're off for a week for example for vacation and you come back and something happens during your shift as a public safety employee now you're making the city liable and there's no way for us to tell that you did it on vacation or did it this morning or whatever it is. Correct. And that's where it gets really um not clear direction is given by the state level. Do we not have maybe this so I'm going to look at the two chiefs because I don't know their line of duties nearly as well as they do. So is this and and Paul I think you I got to believe you have the same issue when somebody's driving and it's a stoned problem instead of a drunk problem. At what point does a measurement matter? uh as long as we can show that they were under the influence as far as their driving abilities. So it it's a whole situation of I have probable cause to stop them because we believe they're under the influence. So they're weaving, they're um speeding up, slowing down. Um we administer roadside tests to determine and then if we determine that they're under the influence, we can take them in for testing. um no matter what level of THC comes back, we can still charge them with under the influence. Um but then it depends with the courts kind of what they determine as what so that be at that point it's kind of like a distracted driving kind of a thing. It's a it's a it's what I say versus what you say in court. There's no measurement to quantify the impact. There is, but it it with THC and cannabis, it's a lot different than normal drugs, right? Um, so the state has a certain level, but it's not solidified level. Um, so they they will tend to look at it and say, "Yep, you're above this amount of THC in your system, so you should be under the influence at this level." But we can prove as long as we can prove that we believe they were under the influence of either alcohol, you could be at an 06, I could still charge you with under the influence of alcohol just by your driving abilities. Um, so if you're driving recklessly, you hit something, um, we can still charge you for under the influence. Um, it's not driving while intoxicated. It's while you're under the influence of an controlled substance. For for us, for police officers and CDL drivers, we have to follow the federal and if we carry firearms, we have to. It's a you can't use it off duty either. I know the firearms thing is how is it related to to to to driving? So you said CDL, but I mean most you guys don't have CDL, right? So I guess mayor, members of council, the the issue that we get into is liability because we don't know on THC. We have no idea. You know, it can be in your system for 30 days. There's no way to measure it at the moment. So, if we have an injury on duty or we hurt somebody else and they're drug tested, there's a potential for that liability to the city saying that they're under the influence, right? But alcohol, you'd have the same. Correct. For alcohol as well. Yep. You would. Um hence we don't obviously we don't allow regardless police or fire um you know alcohol within certain period of time of coming to work but how long does alcohol goes through your system a lot quicker totally different it is right because you can tell and I can I know you had a drink within whatever because where blood right and that would be similar if you look at any other also I'll take public safety as a section here because that's kind of like the sex we're talking about. Everybody else, I mean, I was I think you could tell if somebody was under the influence of cannabis, you probably could tell that if they were in work sitting in an office back here or something, I probably could tell that they were doing that. So, that's where it's again not quite as, you know, if they're not under the influence and they did it on the weekend, it's not going to affect anything of their work level. So, that's different. If for some other reason, let's say there was an accident. Yep. Are there mandatory measurements done when there when there are accidents mand mandatory checks for police? We any injury, accident, um, or fatality, we we require a drug and alcohol test. It's always been in our policy manual. That's where it comes into place. Yeah. And that's the liability. The level for THC is zero. If there's anything above that, it trips. Whereas with alcohol, it's it's some level up. Um Mhm. Yep. And until the world has a better grip on THC testing or and once once it changes at a federal level, then we'll have to come back and obviously change our policies and procedures and processes. But I I just don't know what else to provide for guidance, unfortunately. Why is the federal level apply? I mean, it makes sense for firearms. Um federally, it's firearms and CDLs. And CDLs, correct? But yeah, I don't I I the firemen seem kind of an odd. Yeah. So I would leave out the firemen from my understanding. I don't know. Again, I don't know. This is not my background. I'm not HR. Well, what is what is our next uh bullet point? What do they say about it? Um I Yeah, I'm a little leerary of the the firemen applying this to to firefighters. Firefighters. Yeah. because they don't carry firearms and they don't have the CDL license. Yeah. But if from the liability perspective, if we go to a scene and don't treat somebody properly and then we get sued and we have somebody tested and again I'm using all these scenarios of liability perspective because in a city hall employee, they're not going to do that. We're not providing any public safety life saving abilities. Okay. Um again, that's just it's a liability perspective and if the council doesn't want to do that, that's certainly fine. We can adjust personnel policy, but that's the liability I'm mentioning. You wouldn't get tested. Just say he goes to a fire and all of a sudden somebody got hurt during the fire. It might be three or four or five days before somebody gets tested. Yep. And you got in your system for 30 days and you were on vacation last week, which again, a person could care less what you do and not trying to dictate on what you do in your free time. But yeah, I'd say there was a fire when you came back from your vacation again and you get tested in 14 days after that. It's still in and I don't know THC real well, but it sounds like it's still in your system for 30 days. So that's why I Well, that's a that's a generic again a generic thing. It could be 14 days total. I don't size metabolism. Again, that's the reason for the policy. I hear what you're saying though. I mean, I agree. What you do on your own time is your own deal. Except Except we're saying it's not for fire. This This is saying it's not. And I would think that you're, you know, if somebody shows up to get on a truck and you can smell them or you notice, I would think that somebody would say something to you. The same thing if you're out and somebody has a beer in their backyard and they show up to the station. If you're the officer or you know that's there or even anybody, you look at that person and you go, I can smell you. You're staying here. Like I think not that it should be all on each other, but if somebody shows up, like you have every right to tell them to get off the truck. Yeah. And I I guess until testing gets better and you can say that, yeah, you had a drink, whatever, it's legal in your garage that had cannabis or whatever and then you drove to the station after. Like I think that's a more of an issue of um I don't want to say integrity, but that's another kind of issue I think you need to be talking about. I just think this is too deep into telling someone that they never ever ever can and then if you randomly test them because you feel like you need to and then you can terminate them based on that like I don't know that just doesn't sit right with me personally especially when you don't know when they did it or how you know like so that's my personal opinion and I Mr. Mayor, members of the council, I believe that all public safety um staff should be included in the ordinance for liability reasons. Um when it comes to termination over an employee using um there's going to be so many other things that you're going to look at, including the amount of THC that is in um with the test. You're going to have to talk with attorneys um stuff like that before you would be able to recommend termination. just under that fact. Um my recommendation would be able to keep would keep them in there. Um just for the liability reasons because if something did happen and you didn't test them, you you're more liable than if you do test them and they do have THC, you can work that out with attorneys, HR, um stuff like that. you you a lot of times would you know say an officer um you found out was under the influence a lot of times you're going to probably send them to treatment if they're if it's their first offense um prior to making that termination charge. Um same unfortunately we're regulated by post um which is our state licensing board. Um, so if we're caught with alcohol in our system or over the legal limit post can sanction our license for a period of time. So we're regulated under that. I don't know if there one or two um any of their licenses are affected by that, but we're affected by post. Um I think it's for liability reason. I think you leave it in there. Um and then if something does happen, you have it. I don't know. Does this have random in it? It does. Yep. Oh, oh, I'm not a fan of random. Yeah, just there's no cause there whatsoever. That would be you take that out. You just put in I think it's listed. There's a limit list. It's pre-employment, post accident, random, reasonable suspicion, return to work, and follow. goal is not to do random testing, but well then based one but there was a so there was a reason that um Amy had Amy Schmidt had suggested keeping random in there was that if it was needed then you could utilize it but I've seen it used that way and it was a weapon. It's always a weapon. It's always a weapon. It's not intended. One of my best technicians due to this thing so not a fan but I understand the need. He was three days out and uh he got randomly pulled. So one of our best technicians. Um you want to remove random in the wording? That's fine. Not here to I'm not here to stand on the ground random. But for the chiefs, if we removed random but kept everything else, pre-employment, pre-employment, post accident, reasonable suspicion, return to work, and follow-up testing, and just took the random out, would that still be over? Would that satisfy? Yeah. What's the return to work mean? To come back to work. Like if you but like if you had say an officer was injured in the line of duty and we have to medically clear them to come back to work. So it's part of their medical clearance. What about other leaves of absences? Is that also covered? There was I'm reading it right now. The performance of the safety my perspective. If you're on a leave of absence, we are going to do drug testing when you come back. No different if you are a new employee, which would be a new addition we haven't done in the past. just feedback mayor members of council that we would be the one of the only cities that I'm aware of that would allow firefighters to consume THC. So I would highly vote against it or not vote or voice my concern I guess in that capacity from a liability issue. Well, I think part of this is as a society is learning too. We we do tolerate, you know, very low levels of of of of things such as alcohol the night before. Um even though there's likely alcohol still in your blood. I I don't know. I I've always had a distaste for the way we treat even though I'll take a beer over anything, but I just it bothers me the way we differentiate between these two things. Um, okay. Where we at? It's a random, but I think everybody agrees that comes out. It's not going to be the hill I die on. So that's fine. Just trying to get something updated so we can keep moving forward. So I understand why it was the way it was and that's and RC attorney put this together based on their city. So I I didn't love it, but I was okay with it as is. I'm also supportive of taking the random out because I have seen that weaponized on more than one occasion. Um the return to work testing does specify the um after engaged in conduct prohibited by federal law or this policy concerning alcohol or controlled substance. So it's not return to work just from I went on vacation. It's return to work because you went on leave because you did something whether that's what that's what the definition of return to work testing is that I see on page 118 slash page 40 40. Yeah. Okay. I'm I'm a no no matter what you say. So, okay. But just the CL the question, what does return to work mean? And according to this policy, the return to work testing is triggered because you were put on leave because you broke some federal law and or you broke this policy on substance abuse. It's not just vacation like not voluntary leaves like FMLA. Not I took a leave because I broke my baby or I had my hip replaced and my doctor pursu like no. So correct. I mean that's according to this policy. That the correct understanding. Yeah. I'm trying to um Amy Schmidt uh I'm trying to understand. So it says, yeah, after engaging in conduct prohibited by federal law or prohibited by this policy, I would instead of the or I just put prohibited by this policy concerning alcohol or controlled substances. I don't know if it's clear on when return to work really is based on my understanding of that. I'm unclear as well. So I can't give you a yes, this is what this means because I don't read it one way or the other. Okay. And I read it as only that's the re because it says return to work testing and it says the city the city shall ensure before driver returns um function after engaging in conduct prohibited by federal law or this policy. So I don't see how you could if I went on vacation or leave, right? Like my I had a baby, my wife had a baby, whatever. I don't see how this could be triggered. Yeah. And I don't did not ask this area from Amy Schmidt what her clarification was. So should we get clarification? I mean then we can also get Dave's input. But I don't know. Do you should we I I mean I don't have a problem with that. Um with that being like table it table it deal. Paul, is there a THC level? Is there just like alcohol? There's a level. It's THC. I never got caught. So there there is no really statemandated level. Um that yes or no right now. Does testing return a value or simply there's it will give you a value of how much THC or cannabis is in your system. Okay. Um it it it really depends. It has to be a higher number with um and it could be a lower number, but you have to have other factors as far as your driving conduct, other items like that. It it follows the same thing that we do with alcohol. You have to have the probable cause that somebody's under the influence of alcohol. Um but then it we get a statemandated number that says it's at this number. You're no matter what you can go to jail for it where THC is different levels. Yeah. They don't have a number, right? That's So why don't we come up with a number? Well, I I wouldn't suggest trying to come up with a number with THC until the state comes up with a number. Yeah. Um, I would I would just do it um for the liability reasons. And like I said, it's not going to be the only thing that gets somebody terminated. Um, there's going to be a lot of talking with attorneys and HR. Um, if this ever came about that somebody tested positive, um, it not saying you couldn't fire somebody. I just wouldn't recommend as far as like an officer um for me to terminate them just based on that. Um there's union that we'd have to deal with stuff like that. So, um like I said, in any circumstance when you terminate somebody, there's you're going to want to make sure you have everything um documented and in in the file. Okay. Uh well to move on to a different question in there it says leave can be extended by the manager. Mhm. To me you got to have some sort of I mean I could cry you a river and and try to get two months off. You're not going to get paid though once you're out unpaid. And at some point we need somebody here. So you could say unpaid leave all day long, but if I need some people to go back here to snowplow, I'm going to say, unfortunately, I need you to come back and if you don't come back, I got to get ready so then I can get somebody in here that wants to work. There's kind of a limit on there. Yep. There's a lot of things in this personal policy that are up to the city administrator. And so the city council's got to have the trust of the city, you know, trust the city administer making the right decision. Well, you better have it in the policy though, otherwise You mean some outside number? Yeah, some outside number. mine is like 10 days or 7 days or 2 weeks or whatever it is. There's just so many different scenarios for you to pick that if you just start picking and choosing of we're only going to allow this and then only going to do 10 days for this. But that's what happens if somebody broke their femur and they can't come back to work and we're going to say, "Well, 10 days is all work, man. Sucks you out of here. Have a medical leave though." Well, that's on top of the medical leave. Say you have three months and you haven't recovered yet because you're healed slowly with your bone and you need another couple months. And I say, "Oh, you get 10 days based on the policy." Well, there can be complications. My sister just had um she tore a tendon and had surgery and they can't figure out but it's not healing and she is well past her leave now. She's in unpaid leave and they can't figure out why it's not getting better. Like there's just I don't want to put a hard number on that. There's just too many complications for particularly for medical things. Um for the record, I was okay with this as is. I totally respect the I don't like I don't like the idea of telling people what they can do on their off time, but I also it is about liab it is at the end of the day it's about liability. It is um and so I didn't like it but I was I was going to be okay with it. I get what you're saying and if we can take random out that does make you feel better because then you're not getting tested unless there's a genuine cause. Um, but I think for the THC thing, it's probably going to wind up being I don't think that's a decision for our city to make. That's a decision the state has to make. And chances are it's going to be some sort of termination union lawsuit that's just going to force the issue, quite frankly. Um, and hopefully it's not one of us that that that goes that route, but I I I support what the you know, the chiefs think this is the right thing to do. Our attorney thinks this is the right thing to do. And so I'm going to support the experts in the room on this one. So, but I'm if I'm in the minority, I'm in the minority and we can table it. So, you want to go with it or table it? I'm kind of leaning towards tableabling it. Just again, that also gets Dave's input and we get this other thing clarified. I don't know. I understand uh the chief's stance on it. It's a liability deal on the uh THC. I don't um I guess realistically the uh the my my issue that I talked about, you wouldn't know if you got dead weight or not and we just get rid of them. is it's easier said than we have unions here still so just that but yeah let's table I I'll go I'll make a motion to table it all right need a second I'll second it all those in favor say I I all those opposed nay three to one to table it until uh so we'll have Amy clarify that thing it'll be on the next meeting on the next meeting to and you want her to clarify the return to work testing part. It sounds like so it sounds like from my perspective is the random's gone which is again not the hill I'm going to die on and then the other one is just clarifying the return to work policy but all right that that sounds like the only questions we had. That's what I'm asking for. Yep. I want to make sure that I understand it too so I can make sure Amy's prepared for the next meeting. Okay. Okay. On to idle item N approval of ABDO HR. Members of council looking to approve an HR contract. actually we are able to utilize some dollars. We worked with ABDO in the past. They have done um a good job for us and helped us out most certainly um with HR in the past and I'm trying to do a more formal agreement with them. By doing a more formal agreement, I'm looking at doing the least number or the whatever least amount per month it was through core compliance package. There you go. The core compliance package that gives us the most flexibility of dollars that are able to be utilized so we can use those hours for anything else that we're looking for. But essentially what it comes down to is we just need some HR help of what to do in certain situations that we're looking for assistance on. Get us jump started. By getting the most number of hours involved, we are able to blend the rate as best as possible. So that means we get the best bang for our buck. So and this this is for 25, right? This is for 25 only. Yes. We have enough money in the budget overall with um insurance costs and with personal professional services are able to cover it without going over budget. So So it doesn't hit the budget at all. Um it will affect the budget. There's no increase. There's no increase to the budget for 25. No, we're just able to reutilize dollars to And uh in 26 is we're going to talk about this again. You got it. Well, for now it's going to be this will be the in in place contract for 25. That's the number of hours used for 25. And then in 26, we'll either have to figure out if we're going to increase that cost as in increase the contract if we need more hours depending on how much we use it or we're going to go with the HR manager position. Yes. So your budget's just not going to cut it. And this is the conversations. This is the way it is. This is the only one we're seeing because you used them earlier this year. Um we've used them multiple times over the last several years. Okay. Um and they are probably the I'm going to I don't know if I'd say best known, but they're most well-known company around that does this kind of work. There's not a lot of HR consultants around. Um but again without getting just a oneperson show this is a firm. So okay call this a trial run and we'll go from there. All right. Need a motion. Second. I'll make a motion. Um do you need me to specify the core compliance package level? I make a motion to approve the core compliance package level. Need a second. That's 35. Correct. Yes. I'll second it. Just for 25. Just for 25. Any more discussion? All those in favor say I. I. I. All those opposed say no. Thank you. Motion carries four to zero. And if there are no objections, we are adjourned. We're have a great night. You got your gambler.