This transcript features the Hermantown Planning and Zoning Commission meeting. Based on the context provided, here is the formatted transcript with speaker names. **Participants identified:** * **Cory Kolquist:** Commission Chair * **Eric Johnson:** Community Development Director * **Beth Winoff:** Commission Member * **Valerie Orlette:** Commission Member * **Buckley Simmons:** Commission Member * **John Geissler:** City Councilor / Commission Member * **Joe Wicklund:** Assistant City Administrator * **Chris Tracy:** Applicant (3983 Ugstad Road) * **Mark Romano:** Public Speaker (5146 Arrowhead Road) * **Mary Murphy:** Public Speaker (5180 Arrowhead Road) * **Tom Straple:** Public Speaker (4159 West Arrowhead Road) * **W. Kuza:** Public Speaker (5147 L Junction Road) *** [0:00] **Cory Kolquist:** I'd like to welcome everybody to the city of Hermantown Planning and Zoning Commission meeting for October 17 2023 it's currently 7 o'clock I'll start with a roll call this evening myself Cory kolquist here B orlette Beth winoff here Buckley Simmons here Dante tomason is not here and councelor Geisler. [0:36] **John Geissler:** Thank you. [0:38] **Cory Kolquist:** Second up this evening is an approval of this evening's agenda can I get a motion on that please. [0:42] **Beth Winoff:** I move to approve. [0:44] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that can I get a second. [0:45] **Valerie Orlette:** Second. [0:46] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that all in favor I [All: Aye] motion passes number three is the approval of the minutes from the September 19th 2023 regular meeting can I get a motion on that please. [0:55] **Buckley Simmons:** So moved. [0:56] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that can I get a second. [0:58] **Beth Winoff:** Second. [1:00] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that all in favor I [All: Aye] that motion passes as well number four is public discussion uh is anybody here here to speak on anything that is not on this evening's agenda if you are please come on up state your name and address for the record not seeing any we'll move on from number four number five is public hearings our first public hearing this evening is an application for a special use permit by Michael Tracy for the grading and filling in a natural environment Shoreland area for the purpose of constructing a single family home the property is located at 3983 ugad Road and is located in an R3 residential zoning District Eric what do you have for us on this one. [1:31] **Eric Johnson:** Great thank you very much Mr chair uh this evening is a special use permit uh the applicant Michael Tracy owns a property at 3983 ugad Road uh there's an existing home on this property uh what the applicant is proposing is um at a future date to subdivide the property in order to deed land over to a family member in order to construct a home uh within this area of the city there is an unmapped tributary um to the I believe it's the Rocky Run that uh does exist uh this was discovered approximately five years or so ago by the DNR when we were working on another project so hence any work that happens in this area we uh verify at the DNR that there is indeed a Shoreland area associated with this and in this case uh there is so it's just a it's a strip of water basically along the ditch line associated with this property but that does trigger the Shoreland area so as a result of that uh the applicants required to get a special use permit in order to grade and fill in that Shoreland area uh what they're seeking to do at once again a future date is to install a driveway uh from ugad Road uh approximately 150 180 ft back into the site uh to um then reach in some more Upland area associated with this property for the construction of that home uh the rationale for that home being so set so far back is Shoreland areas especially the natural environment which this is does have a 150t building setback associated with it so at the time of building application when that does come in uh we would then verify that once in day that that home is outside that 150t zone uh as IID mentioned uh this is a requirement for our ordinance uh they're looking to essentially uh impact approximately 9,000 square ft of the Shoreland area and as part of that we just uh look to minimize the amount of exposed soil for the least amount of time possible that we want to see some sort of erosion control measures in place uh IE seating uh straw Etc that way um if this is recommended by Planning and Zoning commission this would go to the uh next city council meeting uh in November. [3:51] **Cory Kolquist:** Perfect thank you very much for that commission members any questions or comments so far not hearing any is the applicant here this evening by any chance perfect sir if you have anything to say could you please come up and state your name and address for the record there. [4:21] **Chris Tracy:** Name is Chris Tracy uh I am representing 3983 ugad Road I reside in duth right now 1406 Anderson Road thank you for that um yeah I'm just here to follow the process and see uh what it would take to get this permit approved uh the goal here to live next to our grandparents as they're getting older in life uh my wife and I and our daughter and soon to be expecting second child I grew up in Hermantown went to school here so um being close to family and being back in the community I came from is why I'm here today. [4:56] **Cory Kolquist:** Very cool anything else. [4:58] **Chris Tracy:** That's all I got. [4:59] **Cory Kolquist:** Commission members any questions for the applicant at this time thank you very much sir I'm going to open up the floor for a public hearing at 7:05 if anybody's here to speak on this matter this evening please come on up state your name and address for the record if you want to talk about this please come on up tonight not seeing anybody I'm going to close the public hearing at 7:05 commission members any other questions or comments for Eric or the applicant on 5A this evening not hearing or seeing any I look for a motion on 5A please. [5:41] **Buckley Simmons:** Motion to approve agenda 5A as stated. [5:45] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that can I get a second. [5:48] **Beth Winoff:** Second. [5:49] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that all in favor I [All: Aye] anybody opposed not hearing any the motion passes thank you very much for that second up this evening is 5B it's an application by rainy day funding LLC for a subdivision to create 136t wide parcel of half an acre and a 1.88 acre lot accessed by the way of a flag lot of 30 foot in width at 5154 West Arrowhead Road the property is located in R3 zoning District again Eric what do you have for us on this one. [6:22] **Eric Johnson:** Great thank you again uh this is an existing lot of record at 5154 West Arrowhead Road it's an existing 2.33 Acre Site um there had been a home previously on this property uh which has since been demolished this was unfortunately the the home that was struck by an airplane uh earlier this past year um uh this applicant has since purchased the property and is looking to subdivide it into uh two different Parcels essentially what's left from the parent lot is a proposed Halfacre parcel which is going to be located on the West Side uh Mr Wickland if you can scroll up there we go thank you so parcel a basically that's what we call the um the parent property that way uh that's approximately 136 ft along Arrowhead Road and approximately 160 ft deep it does meet the minimum requirements of our R3 zoning District both from a lot size as well as a lot width in 2016 uh city council um passed an ordinance allowing flag Lots uh within the city uh those are applicable in any zoning District assuming that they meet minimum requirements in the case of flag Lots uh minimum basically Frontage on a roadway is 30 feet and the maximum of that access point is 500 feet what I like to do is I call it a pole and a flag so the pole portion once again is a minimum of 30 feet Max of 500 feet in length and uh that contains a driveway and any utilities associated with it and then the flag is actually where the uh home would be built that way so in this case in parcel B uh both the uh the the pole and the flag requirements do meet minimum requirements uh the applicant's looking at a 30 foot uh touchdown point on Arrowhead Road and approximately 160 feet long on that pole portion and then uh that acreage in the back which would be the home uh on that parcel B in the back and the flag area it is required to meet uh all the setbacks associated with the standard R3 so they're be a 50ft building setback on the front yard which we'd call that would be from the the rear of the the parent property minimum of 10 ft on the side yards and then 40 feet in the rear yard as well uh from speaking to the applicant uh their plan is to uh assuming this is is passed is to Market both Parcels for sale uh these would both be single family homes associated with that the way flag Lots work um especially with this this size here that they'd be a single family lot and um there is per the national Wetland inventory some wetland in the southwest corner um assuming once again that this lot is split uh any building application that would come in we would look to see where the home sits in relation to that National Wetland information uh if there are apparent impacts at that time we would require Wetland delineation with this point this is strictly for a lot subdivision. [9:30] **Cory Kolquist:** Perfect thank you very much for that Eric commission members at this point does anybody have any questions for Eric so far. [9:38] **Beth Winoff:** I have a question regarding Water and Sewer hookups and availability and since there was a home there do they need to pay for water and sewer hookups. [9:45] **Eric Johnson:** My understanding is that they would have they'd be able to use that existing stub the way it is today but for the future or that new flag lot that would require any sort of uh availability or hookup fees that we would have so there would be requirements that they would have to hook up as they are less than 400 feet from the um city sewer and water. [10:04] **Beth Winoff:** Thank perfect. [10:05] **Cory Kolquist:** Great question I know we've seen quite a few of these flag Lots recently so I think we're all kind of familiar with them uh by any chance is the applicant here this evening. [10:14] **Eric Johnson:** The applicant uh had reached out for me they're out of the Twin Cities they did have another uh commitment in Aitkin uh they're going to try to dial in if possible but it does not look like they were able to at this point Joe any chance anybody's online. [10:29] **Joe Wicklund:** No. [10:30] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you with that being said I'm going to open up the floor for a public discussion at 711 if you're here to speak on this matter this evening please come on up state your name and address for the record come on up sir how are you doing tonight. [10:51] **Mark Romano:** My name is Mark Romano and uh I live right next door to the lot 5146 Arrowhead Road and uh my wife and I are opposed to the flag portion of the lot because it runs right next to our house in our bedroom area um it's we've had this private lot for since the homes were built back in the 1930s and it's one of like three lots on the Arrowhead Road that are set back away from Arrowhead so it's very unique in that regard and by allowing that flag portion I think it's going to uh affect our privacy we also have a shallow well that's on the border of that lot which is a basically a 25 foot well and uh there's ledge rock in the area and we're concerned that if things get built and if they run into ledge rock that that's going to affect our well um I guess that's my comment is we're just opposed to that flag portion. [11:47] **Cory Kolquist:** You're the first lot to the east. [11:49] **Mark Romano:** Yes. [11:51] **Cory Kolquist:** I'm just looking at it on a map here yep so I see your house is set back off the road further than the neighboring homes and what can I ask what that well is used for. [12:05] **Mark Romano:** That's our drinking water. [12:06] **Cory Kolquist:** That's your drinking water okay. [12:08] **Mark Romano:** It's still the original well uh from when my grandparents had the house. [12:13] **Cory Kolquist:** Gotcha commission members any questions for this gentleman at this time do you have anything else for us sir. [12:19] **Mark Romano:** Uh no I guess not. [12:21] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you very much okay thanks would anybody else like to come up and speak this evening please come on up state your name and address for the record. [12:41] **Mary Murphy:** Thank you I'm Mary Murphy and I live at 5180 Arrowhead Road I was born into 5180 Arrowhead Road but then it it was called 363 e Simar Road and I've lived in that home ever since and I've watched Hermantown grow from the township to the city and I don't know who the last people were were or are who have cows but from the time my parents moved into that house in 1937 or 8 or whatever year it was um they had cows until 1954 my mother had died my dad worked at shift work at the steel plant in Morgan Park in Gary and he worked shifts because he worked shifts a kid always had to be the milker or my mom but my mom died in 1953 and there was only one brother left and boys do have to milk before girls have to milk and this girl tried really hard not to ever go to the barn unless there were kittens in there but she knew better she didn't want to go to school smelling like the barn so she never learned how to milk and there was no one left to separate the cream from the milk and sell that or trade that with the neighbors for whatever eggs they had and so we sold the cows but other people might have still had some cows we had two cows usually babe and Snoopy and we never had a locker at the Locker plant but my parents worked really hard with the rest of the community that still have animals to encourage that there be a locker plant and meat market which happens to be the school administrator's office right now and the superintendent works out there so I know things change and I know everything can't be wonderful but when I spoke to you last spring I had no idea what a flag lot was and I still hardly do but it has great impact on the community historically and emotionally and I I don't know what your plans are for the Jackson project houses but I know that it's one of a few New Deal projects that remain intact but not so much because of Planning and Zoning you are the most powerful people in Hermantown for deciding the future of what was and what will be and it affects every homeowner what they bought and moved into or what they were born into or who they sell to and what the new people want and think about and that's no easy decisions and we're going to come out with a big study I hear on the future of Hermantown but is there any neighborhood in Hermantown that doesn't have a flag lot now or isn't planning on having a flag lot not the ordinary citizens neighborhood in the neighborhood but the developers that come in and say we'll put a flag lot in the house across the road from me now totally flipped from where the driveway was supposed to be I never dreamed there would be three new mailboxes I never even thought that there would be three new mail boxes on the 100 feet of easement that my house has and with the third mailbox that went up now I'm not sure where my snowblow driver is going to push the snow from the top of my driveway I expect I have to move my mailbox to where the other mailbox is from across the road but I was told the plan for the house was totally different than how the house turned out and there are things like that and where the water wells are we have water well on my place too but I'm hooked up to City sewer and water in addition and so I didn't have to use water from the city of Duluth to water this summer because I could use the well water and that's a precious thing that we have to preserve but the historical aspect of the Jackson project and I'm you know I don't have the 10 acres that Franklin Roosevelt deeded over to my parents because my brother when he got married in 1954 55 whichever one of those years the last milker he um built a house Romanos are the grandchildren of the people that lived in the original House almost every house that's built has some relation new house that's been built on the five acres Carlson's the house that the plane crashed into each one of their kids were deeded part of the land Art and Ducky that property is still in the hands of the people it was deeded to Roger chose to sell his and so to the West was Roger on the Arrowhead Road but they're gone now too and someone else built a home one home but not a home crowded that home had to have 100 foot front street didn't it I'm told there my house that houses or my land there has to be 100 foot street and on the Arrowhead Road with the amount of traffic that we have with the school and the new development and the future new developments that's going to fill in the Sunquest property and we've given them two easements now the flag easement and then the Wetland fill so that's going to affect the neighborhoods down around Rocky Run and wherever it goes to possibly but you have a fine fine administrator that's in charge of planning and zoning and he talks me down every once in a while and you should give them a raise I say because he will listen and he will explain and he will make me understand but I won't understand any flag lot in the historical Jackson project area it shouldn't be we should have one thing in Hermantown that's always remembered of how the growth really started and that's when the federal government chose to have a project in Hermantown Minnesota there's one other project in Austin Minnesota that's not similar to Hermantown but it was a new deal project and that still exists but not like the original either we have to change I know that I was your history teacher oh I know and I know history but we have to prepare for the future but changing to a flag lot isn't the right way to do it thank you for listening thank you for nodding once in a while and thank you um for your good judgment on most everything else you do it has to be good judgment on this too thank you. [24:37] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you very much Mary if anybody else would like to speak and uh try and follow that one up come on up state your name and address for the record. [24:54] **Tom Straple:** Hi I'm Tom Straple I live at 4159 West Arrowhead Road with my wife Elise we're directly across from the property of the proposed uh application here uh we've lived there well over 25 years uh kids grew up there great neighborhood we're on the sidewalk side so it's really great for the kids to be able to walk to and from school into sports um Arrowhead Road is a very busy road uh you know we've got the traffic going from uh all the school buses all the different other developments that are around there we've got Gray Ridge right next to us here we've got a number of houses built back there and uh I just think putting another additional driveway onto this busy street uh would not be healthy for the neighborhood at all and I guess I feel that that piece of property should be just dedicated to one one household there's no reason why we would put two households on that small piece of property um you've got um it's a nice chunk of land why would you split it up into have two pieces of property we've got a developer that's coming out of the Twin Cities that's cutting this up for us and why would we want to let somebody do that to a piece of property within Hermantown especially if it impacts the neighbors um you're right next door to them I have all of a sudden have two neighbors right there so I would hope that we would make the decision to keep that one parcel for one household for the city of Hermantown. [26:38] **Cory Kolquist:** Can I ask you a quick question I'm just looking at the map you're directly across the street right. [26:42] **Tom Straple:** I am. [26:44] **Cory Kolquist:** Can you tell me what size your lot is. [26:47] **Tom Straple:** Boy I tell you what about an acre if about an acre I think it is. [26:54] **Cory Kolquist:** Okay thank you very much y you bet yep anybody else want to come up and speak this evening please feel free come on up state your name and address for the record. [27:18] **W. Kuza:** I'm W. Kuza 5147 L Junction Road the property that they're talking about joins my property in the back I when I built in 65 I was going to build three lots I couldn't because of the runoff in a ledge rock so what happened was I put a pole up finally but anyway it's a running it's not just Wetland it's a running creek all winter long all summer long you have to wear boots in the back of that lot and it splits I have a windmill on the top of that Big Ridge and half the river or creek comes right in back of my house and I have a 9 foot pond in an island windmill it's open year round and then it splits and it goes around to the backside and that hits my whole back end then it splits on the 45 and heads towards the Arrowhead Road which is the land that they want to build now they have to on my abstract the government said I couldn't change any layout for the runoff well my runoff is it's all Cobblestone when the government put the Jackson homes in so I made the best of it turned out good but yeah on the other side it's swamp I keep my back line open and the only time I can get there well now you'd have to wear hip boots because it's muck but it's not standing it's a running water and I don't know how far back they want to build but you're looking it starts in my corner and heads towards say the Arrowhead on a 45 and that's about uh after surveying they surveyed after they uh they got the for the airplane good thing it dropped there not on my land it would have been right on my house but anyway they uh they they would have to hold at least 50 to 80 feet from the back line and keep that original River going and that crosses on the L Junction on the low end and the other part goes towards the school that way so I'm kind of concerned I don't need more water so if they block it then I'm going to be getting more water and run off. [30:08] **Cory Kolquist:** And you were 5147. [30:10] **W. Kuza:** Yes. [30:11] **Cory Kolquist:** I'm just looking at a map thank you. [30:13] **W. Kuza:** Pardon. [30:14] **Cory Kolquist:** I'm just looking at a map right now just to orientate myself with your house. [30:18] **W. Kuza:** I'm right on the corner the corner of the lot Grandma Carlson she was the original owner she split it to her three sons. [30:29] **Cory Kolquist:** Gotcha perfect do you have anything else you'd like to tell us. [30:33] **W. Kuza:** No that's about it just so they don't have to divert all the water to us because right behind Wayne the mayor he joins my lot yep that's the other Creek that's coming off the Arrowhead Road and uh Lake Road and that's a steady running river but it's been kept up. [30:58] **Cory Kolquist:** Perfect very good thank you for the information would anybody else like to come up and speak this evening if you do please come on up state your name and address for the record not seeing anybody I'm going to close the public hearing at 7 31 uh commission members any questions or comments for Eric on this so far. [31:41] **Buckley Simmons:** Um Eric on parcel a that it's half an acre that's the minimum size to build on right. [31:47] **Eric Johnson:** That is correct this is R3 zoning it's a minimum of a half acre and a minimum of 100 feet of Frontage. [31:54] **Buckley Simmons:** Okay assuming it is not a flag lot do you know if there was a reason why that lot wasn't made larger. [31:59] **Eric Johnson:** I don't with almost two acres for the flag lot yeah they they could have changed it in different dimensions if they wanted to but what they've proposed meets our minimums. [32:08] **Cory Kolquist:** Okay Eric the wetlands on parcel B how much of that is consumed by Wetlands is there Wetlands or anything that would affect where you know if we were to move this forward that it could be developed as a flag lot I mean is there possibility for a house to be built and meet the the setbacks. [32:27] **Eric Johnson:** So right now and Mr Wicklund if you can pull up the plat map so with the what we're calling the parent lot in front has a depth of 160 feet and if you assume then the 50ft setback that's required for a new structure that's 210 ft back this property is approximately 465 ft deep that way so if you just subtract that off that's plus or minus 250 feet a rear setback is 40 So in theory there's a 210 foot building envelope for lack of better words in the rear portion around that flag portion of the lot that way so there is a number of locations in theory you know within that 210 ft that you could place a home and uh once again you know per the national Wetland inventory it's showing wetlands down in that extreme southwest corner not further up into it. [33:35] **Cory Kolquist:** Okay and then the other question obviously we've seen lots of flag Lots we've passed them through they're normally pretty standard but this one it sounds like a well would be affected how how is that handled or potentially if you know there was some sort of development or building an on parcel B is I'm guessing it's just standard standard practice as if we would have to wait and see what happens. [34:10] **Eric Johnson:** Honestly you can't project the future so um right now the once again the thought would be that maybe the applicant puts the water and sanitary sewer line more towards the West more towards the parent lot to try to keep away from this uh what we look to do is uh when in the utilities are installed that we try to keep a standard 10- foot setback treat it like a structure and um you just uh once again that sewer in the water typically about 8T deep and um just have to see from there. [34:55] **Cory Kolquist:** Perfect thanks. [34:56] **Eric Johnson:** I don't have really a good answer for you because it's you just have to see if there's any effects to that well. [35:05] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that so far commission members any other questions or comments. [35:09] **Beth Winoff:** I have to say the Jackson homes are are unique very unique thing um I have lived now 23 years in Hermantown which is amazing but when family and friends come and visit and we inevitably take them around to all the houses to show them the history of this because it is something special it's something that you just don't find everywhere we're losing them unfortunately they've all almost all been added on to and I would definitely agree that they needed to be added on to because they're such tiny little homes but on the other hand there is something that sometimes preserving areas is not a bad deal we do lots of flagships because they are long and skinny that's the nature of Hermantown as well but again I think there are times that um some of the history should have been thought through and um at some point needs to be at least considered as well. [36:31] **Cory Kolquist:** Can appreciate that thank you commission members any other comments or questions. [36:38] **Buckley Simmons:** My only question was on the well really you know it's only 25 ft deep it's on the neighboring property probably fairly close to the property line is that accurate. [37:05] **Eric Johnson:** Okay yeah I guess that's my only real question is how that would be handled if something happened and God forbid that happens obviously but there's the chance that it does I I would assume that whoever the developer is would be liable for something like that it's an assumption on my part that's we would someone would have to cross that bridge when it comes and more than likely would be a civil issue between the two parties Property Owners yep. [37:21] **Cory Kolquist:** Yep yeah that's my only real question because uh I mean the rest of it's pretty straightforward flag lots are allowed in the city of Hermantown until the city council tells me they're not um yeah as far as I'm concerned it's pretty simple um commission members any other questions or comments on this evening. [37:44] **John Geissler:** Yeah I just had one comment was there any consideration of putting the pole on the west side versus East Side you know how they derived it. [37:52] **Eric Johnson:** That I once again this is a vacant lot now in theory you can flip it either way and um it's it's too bad that the applicant is not here because maybe that is something that they could take into effect given that that there's a well in the close proximity. [38:12] **Buckley Simmons:** Yeah I guess just brought up a good point right now this we're not asking for anything special everything in this application meets current zoning standards if this would be denied what's the applicants are what can they do deal with city council is that how it would work. [38:32] **Eric Johnson:** That would be correct the city council would be the acting body at that point. [38:40] **Buckley Simmons:** Eric just one other question just to help educate me we're just approving this parcel to be made into a flag lot we're not approving any kind of construction or it's strictly a land subdivision so theoretically this could be sold and because of wetland or because of variances the new owner would may be prohibited from building on it or is this kind of a okay you're set to go you can build because I here again I'm concerned about their well as as well I mean would they have to come and present to planning and their construction. [39:15] **Eric Johnson:** They no this is the only action that would be required. [39:18] **Buckley Simmons:** All right building permit would be the next step. [39:21] **Eric Johnson:** Exactly it's strictly administratively at that point right. [39:34] **Buckley Simmons:** Okay thank you. [39:43] **Cory Kolquist:** Commission members any other thoughts on this this evening or questions we've had a couple comments on the well we've had a couple comments on potentially flipping the flag portion to the west or the pole portion I'm sorry to the West I mean but in theory it's just admin it's just a property split right now yeah it's too bad that the applicant isn't here right just because I mean we do these all the time it's very standard and it meets all the criteria so we're we're running off a hypothetical that we could affect a well which yeah it's a bit of a bummer that we can't ask him but you know. [40:53] **Beth Winoff:** Is there any way that we can table it till next month. [40:55] **Eric Johnson:** That could be an action requested by this and voted on. [41:00] **Beth Winoff:** Yeah that's true I mean we can make that motion I would make the motion that we table this and talk to the developing company more and see if there's a way to change some of the the way this is laid out for the Neighbors especially. [41:14] **Cory Kolquist:** Okay so just to be clear you're not against the flag lot creation you just want to look at the layout of it. [41:20] **Beth Winoff:** I am still against that but I would rather table it right now and at least take care of the one main issue like I said we can't the flag lots are there unfortunately and and fortunately I'm I'm both sides on that but in this instance we have an extenuating circumstance that makes this not just a slam dunk that it's just inconvenient this is more than that right and that well is right on the property line essentially and it's been like that for a long time. [42:10] **Cory Kolquist:** Right we have a motion uh sir sir I'm sorry can you please come up and state your name for address again for the record. [42:15] **Mark Romano:** Mark Romano last would be would they be allowed to build more than a single family dwelling. [42:25] **Cory Kolquist:** Each one would have a single family dwelling on it correct. [42:31] **Mark Romano:** Okay. [42:38] **Cory Kolquist:** We have a motion on the table uh do we can I get a second or a different motion whatever you suggest the motion is to table it until we can speak with the owner is that right. [42:51] **Beth Winoff:** Yes that is correct. [42:53] **Buckley Simmons:** I would second that. [43:03] **Cory Kolquist:** All in favor i i i [All: Aye] anybody opposed motion passes this will be tabled until we can speak to the potential developer thank you for that did you have a question I'm sorry. [43:17] **Eric Johnson:** Yes correct Eric will reach out to the developer he'll talk to them about what our concerns are and they'll see if they come up with a different plan we would notice this just like we did we'd send out notices to 350 people surrounding it and this would be held at the November the 3 Tuesday in November meeting we'd go through the exact same process that we just did tonight we'd be public hearing associated with it we'd take comments and we'd look for an action from this board. [43:52] **Mark Romano:** Yeah and then from there it would have to go to City Council after that. [43:56] **Eric Johnson:** That is incorrect no for the flag Lots it's a One-Stop shop it comes to Planning and Zoning. [44:00] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that oh yeah for the flag Lots you're right so yeah so it's going to be tabled until next month essentially you're very welcome next up is 5c it's zoning ordinance text amendments by the city of Hermantown amending chapter five land use regulations by creating section 590 which is the Hermantown Business Park Eric what do you have for us on this one. [44:31] **Eric Johnson:** Sorry I'm just sending notes from the last one it's all good so uh as staff has informed this board we've been working for the last number of months on a potential business park at the intersections of Highway 53 and Leake bypass uh there's approximately 120 Acres associated in this area um and once again we've gone through what's called an areawide alternative Urban review document it's a scoping document that looks at soil types surroundings um basically it's an environmental scoping document on a conceptual site plan uh we've just finished up the 30-day comment period by other environmental agencies we've received very few comments from any of these groups that way so The Next Step at least in that document will be response to any written comments that we've received then it will go to the city council in November for the eventual acceptance of that document so the next step then at least we've been envisioning from a staff standpoint and discussion with the owners is a creation of an actual Business Park zoning District what we're doing is we're trying to create a new zoning District that's somewhere between a commercial zoning as well as an industrial zoning that we currently have right now the city has once again three different types of commercial zoning a C a C1 and a C1A and we have what's called business light manufacturing they have some crossover but not really so what was envisioned with the Hermantown Business Park is to essentially marry those two zoning districts try to create um some of that middle ground between the two for this business Park area what we're looking at is within the zoning district is potential for manufacturing warehousing maybe some small commercial businesses potential small restaurants things of that nature um there are very limited for instance in the Hermantown Marketplace we get much more strict as far as landscape requirements building materials Etc that way we don't go that far in this industrial park but at the end of the day we're still trying to find some kind of a unifying theme within this business Park area that way um because there are airport safety zones there's airport safety zone 2 and 3 over this 120 Acres as well as two different zoning districts there's the C the straightup commercial and what's called the C1A which is adult use so as part of any zoning code in any City you need to identify a place that adult uses can happen otherwise they can happen anywhere in the city so we need to be cognizant of any C1A that we remove that it's we don't remove too much that we still keep a reasonable amount within our city that that could be placed so right now we're just looking at um bringing this zoning District into creation and then the next step after that is to tie down how much acreage with of this 120 would this truly affect so it's kind of a multi-step process that way um as we went through with the sign ordinance it's tough to do these in one meeting um especially something that's brand new in this case so um I'd welcome any questions from yourselves or the public who want to ask any and um maybe start a discussion that way and if there's a comfort level at the end of that we can look for a motion otherwise uh we can always continue as well. [48:18] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that uh Eric I'm just skimming through this but just curious about the um parking spaces is this customary like one parking space for 200 feet that's this is the norm it doesn't seem like many parking spots for like a manufacturing facility it says five spaces plus one per 500 ft doesn't seem like that's very much parking for a manufacturing facility. [48:51] **Eric Johnson:** Well a lot of the I used to work on what's called Data Centers it'd be a 200,000 square foot building there'd be 14 people working there so it's it's the nature of a lot of these different facilities and and some manufacturing a lot of it is automated and it's you know there might even for a very large building you may have a very small staff associated with it um but no these are these parking numbers are are pretty traditional you know sizewise throughout a number of different communities that way. [49:40] **John Mulder:** You may have seen too some communities are eliminating that and just kind of going by custom for the for the use you know they can come in and prove that that Big Data Center is going to have four people and so there's some probably through a variance process some customizing of these. [50:00] **Cory Kolquist:** Any other questions or comments so far on 5c. [50:04] **Beth Winoff:** I have a question when looking at the several of these going through them this week um there are some size restrictions especially as in the restaurant um we're asking for not even casual fast is going to have to be something smaller than that drive-through only for 2500 square foot space um where did where did these requirements come from. [50:28] **Eric Johnson:** These are just discussions from a staff level that it wasn't envisioned that this would be a commercial center that this is more once again manufacturing warehousing there may be a sea store hard up on that corner but we don't envision lined with fast food restaurants or things like that that's not the nature of what we've been looking at nor the property owners for that matter either we've been looking at boxes of 10 20 50,000 square foot and that you know restaurants or retail that nature is just really a very small use within that and so we would rather see you know your your chain or your bigger restaurants in other traditionally C-zoned or Hermantown Marketplace zoned areas that way and once again I mean that's that's at least a comment from the staff standpoint if you know this board believes it should be something bigger than that and once again there's a number of you who work in that sector or developing that sector I welcome comments. [51:41] **Beth Winoff:** I know from my experience every day our use and call for what some of this seems to be is dwindling down and I would hate for us to make a mistake and not not have it equal sided so that if you can have a lot together that looks good you could go down by I just my mind went down to this close to the airport you have industrial and office and hotels and everything sort of right in the mix that look nice together and work well together um I would hate for us in our small six acres square to to limit what we have ability to do when the calls are not as extensive today as it used to be we are not the cheapest place to live and work and build and I would hate it for to sit empty so I I think this needs I would like to see it a little more work done and a little more input from some of this very specific things and instead of just an overview so we don't make a mistake. [53:01] **Eric Johnson:** It's it's pretty rare where we get a chance to craft a brand new zoning District right and and like I said it's um I welcome discussion on this as I said the sign I think we we took three meetings to pin that down and that was a rewrite let alone a brand new thing right and I was not here for the Hermantown Marketplace I think Mr Peterson was. [53:30] **Joe Peterson:** Oh yeah. [53:31] **Eric Johnson:** And you might I believe I'm sure that wasn't just one meeting that it's 20 minutes just teasing I'm just teasing no it took a while I mean. [53:39] **Cory Kolquist:** So Beth what are you looking for on something like this like you want us all to come back with specific notes on this and try and compare maybe and plan out a little more time after the next meeting or in the next meeting to do this. [53:51] **Beth Winoff:** Yes exactly I think we need to literally go through some things um as we are doing in the complex plan where I mean we're looking taking time on that as far as a Citywide this especially I think this is important I've been saying forever we need something but I I really am hesitant to tell I mean we just don't have the call so I don't want to limit us to just this use if there are the ways that we could cross over and welcome a Sit casual fast restaurant to with the people that are going to be working on the others as well as the rest of us around I just think we need more work together. [54:37] **Cory Kolquist:** Eric can I ask a question on the 120 business acre business park there how many land owners are there in that. [54:43] **Eric Johnson:** Three. [54:44] **Cory Kolquist:** Three this is being crafted to cover that 120 acres and have the land owners had any input on this at all. [54:55] **Eric Johnson:** We've had an initial discussion with them yep and that from a staff standpoint we could open it up a bit more to them the one of the big things that this excludes is mini storage and one of the existing uses on one of the properties within there is Mini Storage yeah and so and once again that C1A is a spectre that's something that we need to be cognizant of so we are even discussing from a staff standpoint as much as I'd like to see this over 120 Acres this may turn out to be like a 30 acre area just because of the airport safety zone right which has a 2 and a half acre minimum lot size as well as once again that loss of that adult use area so it's it's been a needle to thread a little bit with this and um so it's it's going to be interesting in that 120 Acres there so. [56:08] **Cory Kolquist:** How much of that falls under the or being super restricted by how many people can be on it at a given time because of the overlay. [56:17] **Eric Johnson:** I'm going to say it's a minimum of at least 60 if not more yeah it's a very strange setup the the 26 Acres hard up on that corner uh that's all C-Zone commercial Zone 2 right now and a 3-Zone as far as the airport which is just height restricted and then just the nature of that safety zone coming out a straight line in Highway 53 coming up an angle you start running into this triangle afterwards so just a quick guess plus or minus 40 acres is within that 3-Zone and that area would be fine for data centers for example stuff like that that don't have a lot of occupancy that would be fine in that in the 2-Zone exactly or the same thing large warehousing or things like that and like said you referenced um number of people and it's 20 people per acre is what it is in that 2-Zone so yes it lends itself more towards big boxes that are not retail based. [57:28] **Cory Kolquist:** Okay Beth are you making a motion on that with 5c is that something we should act on. [57:33] **Beth Winoff:** I believe we should I make a motion that we spend more time uh especially not limiting our time but not making a decision tonight so we can further review. [57:42] **Cory Kolquist:** Okay can I get a second on Beth's motion for 5c. [57:46] **Valerie Orlette:** Second. [57:47] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that all in favor I [All: Aye] we will do a little homework and we'll discuss 5c more next time thank you for that moving on to the next one is continuing business do we have anything that's not on our sheet Eric. [58:11] **Eric Johnson:** No we do not. [58:12] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that number seven new business do we have anything other than what's on our sheet. [58:19] **Eric Johnson:** Which is nothing. [58:20] **Cory Kolquist:** Which is nothing that is correct number eight Communications it looks like we have a correspondence from Dale Simonson. [58:26] **Eric Johnson:** This is actually the letter that was prepared in response to Mr Simonson back in July earlier this year I believe Mr Geissler had referenced a letter from Mr Simonson that at least city council had seen and um that letter unfortunately is not in this packet this is just staff's response to our conversations back and forth with Mr Simonson. [59:00] **John Geissler:** Perfect also that Mr Simonson has filed a formal complaint against the city and and that we the council received and I thought the commission members did too that the City attorney is asking that there'd be no communication between City staff commission members or elected officials with Mr Simonson so if he reaches out to you say talk to the attorney. [59:22] **Cory Kolquist:** He has not but thank you for the warning. [59:24] **John Geissler:** Well and I guess I thought the the way that letter was addressed I thought it went to the commission members as well and I apologize for that I was um but I thought it was just my letter in here I was understand that we were going to have his letter as well okay so but that should be included just for their reference purposes so this is nothing we should be discussing here tonight then. [59:52] **Eric Johnson:** Correct it's just correspondence for your reference yeah it's hard to know without seeing his letter there's no action to take it's just making you aware. [59:58] **Cory Kolquist:** Perfect and the other one is unfortunately the resignation letter from Samuel Clark think we all saw that and we congratulated him for his service and thanked him last meeting uh next is number nine commission member reports myself I have nothing this evening Corey kolquist. [1:00:20] **Valerie Orlette:** No report. [1:00:22] **Beth Winoff:** No report. [1:00:24] **Buckley Simmons:** No report. [1:00:25] **John Geissler:** I would just take your time to study the business park I would look on it's on the Hermantown website at that AU document there's a lot of good information some kind of mapping layouts and whatnot by your bedside in case you can't sleep yeah there's a lot of good information there uh but Eric you can direct them a little bit where it would be found on the website. [1:00:45] **Eric Johnson:** Sure that's um Mr Wicklund are you able to call up the city's web page. [1:00:54] **Joe Wicklund:** I can send them a link. [1:00:56] **Eric Johnson:** Or we can just send you the link that's yeah I'll just do that that'd be a little easier there you go. [1:01:00] **Cory Kolquist:** All right with that being said I look for a motion to close the meeting at 8:01 PM. [1:01:07] **Beth Winoff:** I move to adjourn. [1:01:09] **Cory Kolquist:** Can I get a second. [1:01:10] **Buckley Simmons:** Second. [1:01:12] **Cory Kolquist:** Thank you for that all in favor I [All: Aye] thank you very much everybody the meeting is closed at 8:01 PM really appreciate everybody this evening thank you.