This transcript is from the Hermantown Planning and Zoning Commission. Based on the roll call and the context of the discussion (particularly regarding local development and city staff roles), I have identified the speakers as follows: * **Corey Colquist**: Chair of the Commission (the "myself" in the roll call). * **Eric Johnson**: Community Development Director (the staff member presenting the ordinance). * **Joe Peterson**: City Councilor and local developer (frequently addressed as "Joe" or "Joel" regarding his buildings). * **Beth Wenzloff**: Commission Member (landlord of Miller Plaza and other properties). * **Dante Tomasoni**: Commission Member. * **Samuel Clark**: Commission Member. * **Valerie Rowlett**: Commission Member. *** [0:00] Corey Colquist: evening everybody I'd like to welcome you to the city of Hermantown Planning and Zoning commission meeting for January 18 2023. it's currently 702 in the evening I'll start with a roll call of members myself Corey colquist here Valerie Rowlett Samuel Clark here Beth wenzloff here Buckley's not here Dante tomasoni here and councilor Geisler is not here uh second up is the approval of this evening's agenda can I get a motion please [0:30] Beth Wenzloff: I moved to approve tonight's agenda [0:32] Corey Colquist: thank you for that can I get a second appreciate it all in favor aye aye aye motion passes uh number three this evening is the approval of the minutes from the December 20th 2022 regular meeting can I get a motion please [0:55] Dante Tomasoni: Commissioner move [0:57] Corey Colquist: thank you for that can I get a second... colquis with the second thank you all in favor aye aye aye motion passes number four this evening is public discussion not seeing anybody in the audience we'll move on past this one number five is public hearings uh we're here for 5A zoning ordinance text amendments by the city of Hermantown amending chapter 14 science and ground signs Eric what do you have for us this evening [1:15] Eric Johnson: great thank you very much um the city's signed ordinance has been in existence since 1976 when the city first became Incorporated uh there was an update that was done in 2008 uh but since then there has been no changes to the sign ordinance um I started here in 2016 and one of the first conversations I had is with Jim Rich our former building official who pulled out about four pages of handwritt notes and said these are all my changes that we need to do for the sign ordinance someday well jemison's retired and our new building official Adam treminsky was uh basically presented with this and so at that point we said well let's take a run at it and so what staff did was uh we worked with Gunner Johnson our City attorney on a couple different things is the first was a general cleanup of the ordinance just to come in alignment with how laws have changed in the last 40 plus years specifically a lot of things are almost Free Speech basis that way so Gunner has looked at the ordinance to make sure at least we're in compliance with those type of state and federal laws that way he also then took Jim Rich's comments through the years and provided red lines that are in front of you today uh then what we did was particularly myself and a little bit with Adam and his work with the city of Hermantown excuse me with Duluth started saying you know these are things that we've encountered in the last number of years as far as they're regarding signs and try to address those as best we can uh the overall goal was to at least still have the ability to interpret the sign ordinance as best as staff could and not write it so tightly where we actually get down to creating geometries to measure signs that way as other communities have done in the past so particularly things that staff has at least seen through the last number of years is uh how do you handle multi-tenant buildings how do you handle multi-tenant buildings that have Frontage and more than one side and other thing that we've been seeing is uh people are starting to request what we term as a monument signs in the past only thing we Define is a pylon sign that a monument sign could be construed as but in that case the height was upwards of 25 30 feet for pilots and you don't want to Monument sign that tall something of the monolith so what this ordinance uh proposes is actually a definition of a monument sign you see a number of these throughout town I've gone through uh measured a number of these and tried to come up with uh you know basically something that that still meets the spirit of what's out there so in the case um of the ordinance it allows for the exchange of one pylon sign for for a monument sign so um we do cap the height of a monument sign at 14 feet and we do have a maximum square footage of 140 square feet and once again that's not inclusive of the base that's way it's mostly just the sign actually signed panel associated with it so once again it gives staff some flexibility on the interpretation of where the square footage uh basically happens that way and um a lot of it as I said before was just cleaning up the ordinance we had a number of references in there two specific fees uh what we've done in other ordinances is we just referenced the fee schedule because generally each year fees tend to go up and so rather than having to rewrite the ordinance every year we just say reference the fee schedule it's an easier thing to change that way um and then other some things is a lot of the work has happened within what we call the class C type of signage is that's what you traditionally see in the commercial type of zoning or retail that way right now it allows up to that's two square feet for every one lineal foot of building length along the primary Road Frontage that's the way it still reads we did not get into the multiple SCI and multiple sides at this point with the ordinance uh we did um up some of the square footage allowances associated with it but we didn't get to the point where um we we regulated individual signs on each tenant Bay that we're still keeping in language that pertains to master sign plans as best as the developer can propose at the time of initial permit so in a nutshell those were a number of the changes that have been done like I said a lot of this was cleanup language through the years that's why you look at this document and there's there's quite a bit of red in there from the red lines but most of that was uh our attorneys looking at that and bringing this code into a modern compliance so at that point I'd welcome any sort of discussion and questions on this I'll do my best to try to answer those as um this ordinance if uh there's still some questions that need to be answered or input from the city attorney we do have the ability to bring this back at the next meeting to discuss it further as well so at that point I'd like to turn it back to the chair [6:45] Corey Colquist: thank you very much uh commission members anybody have any questions or comments for Eric before I get started [6:57] Joe Peterson: I I mean how can we make input there's there's quite a few things in here it's pretty it's pretty substantial [7:10] Eric Johnson: exactly and that's why it's the same thing that you know we'll try to answer what questions you may have tonight okay you may need more time to review this and like I said um this is not an overly pressing document I mean obviously it's something it's but it's an important document still nonetheless so if if uh the board feels that they want some more time to digest it you know it's perfectly within their ability to do that [7:30] Corey Colquist: thank you I think I'll start off with a couple of questions for years the ordinance was basically two square feet for every lineal foot of the front of a building correct that's what we've been up against for the 17 years I've been doing this [7:55] Eric Johnson: that's correct yes [7:56] Corey Colquist: uh how are you going to take into account buildings that face multiple streets [8:02] Eric Johnson: at this point the way the ordinance is written we are still adhering to that longest Frontage for the measurement so for instance let's say your building's 100 by 60 feet and you front the 100 is the longest you would get the 200 square feet now I said we entertained at least some thoughts from a staff that because what we see happening is the last person coming into a development is lucky to get any square footage left so how we've handled that in the past is trying to have a master sign plan but that's difficult for developers to do because certain tenants have certain requirements that way one thing that at least was discussed at a standpoint but was not pursued was is there a guaranteed minimum for each Bay for lack of better words that let's say at 100 foot building and I might look to the developers and people have some volatile buildings but I'm figuring each base may be 25 feet wide so do you say that each individual Bay for lack of better words you get a minimum of 25 square feet or 50 square feet something like that you know some way that at least a person coming in the last one in a multi-tenant development knows that at least they can have X number of square feet so it's happened in the past as we is look we look to interpret the signage as best we can that we might not be measuring the graphics or logos associated with it so much but try to more concentrate on the actual letters per se and that's how we've tried to get around that in the past so it's a question once again what but you know at least from the planning zoning is is how tight or you know what flexibility do you kind of want to see [10:03] Corey Colquist: correct and I I think that there's got to be a way to produce some language in there for it being different for a single-use building versus a multiple tenant building because that multiple tenant building is obviously going to need more sign locations whether they're on one side or two sides we haven't crossed that bridge yet then like a single tenant would be with the ABC Remodeling on a couple different facades you know where you where you run into trouble is like um 4120 Richard Avenue where you've got a Western Bank and you've got tenants that face major roads or major uh viewpoints for people and they want stuff on the front and the back of the building because there's no real back of a building in a position like that the buildings are finished on all four sides and they're beautiful from any location I think that there needs to be some accommodation for that you know whether it's you know whoever's putting that up but there's multiple examples of that in Hermantown already but you see it all the time down in the Twin Cities where you're cruising by on the freeway you're actually looking at the back of the building and you see all their signs and you pull around the other side of the building where the parking lot is and they have all their signs out there too and I just I think there's got to be some leeway for that because you get multiple tenant buildings like 4140 Richard Avenue where you've got six or eight different tenants in there and only three or four of them can get signs on the building with the with the current code because of the size of the signs and that building there faces three different roads essentially you know uh you know the top tenant in that building would love to have their sign on three different facades facing around around the city to advertise that they're there and instead they get one little two by five spot on the monument sign it's uh I think there needs to be some better discussion on signage on multi-tenant buildings especially as you're going to see more and more of them coming in at multiple floors I totally understand not wanting it to look like a NASCAR whereas where it's totally cluttered I feel like the one in front of the mall the two-story one in front of the mall that's got the black rock or black water and stuff like that in it comes out that little restaurant is called yep I feel some of those signs are a little too big and there's a few too many on there but I don't have a problem with them being on multiple layers either on multiple levels [12:15] Eric Johnson: and that's a and that's another question that way like I said is you know right now you know we for the most part our buildings are all single floor single story but we are seeing more multiple yeah so but it's just but it's the same as you know do you cap the height for signage do you say no that it's allowed on multiple floors and we do not get into that ordinance we do not get into that right now right now we basically the frontage is whatever the address of the building is so in Richard we take the measurement along richer sure so yeah and that's um and it said right now the weights and we had a lot of discussion back and forth with staff and just never really got to a point that we could really come to consensus even at our end that way I mean I'm open to having a discussion with everybody on the board here but what their thoughts might be and maybe they've never ever thought about that because they've never run into that scenario before [13:05] Corey Colquist: but I mean there's quite a few new buildings in Hermantown even over the last five or six years that there are signs that could be or are on multiple sides of the building because of the positioning of the building versus the the traffic patterns in that area you know a great example would be the Burger King the Domino's building on the highway I mean there's signs literally on all four sides of that building three of them you see up and down the highway you know and I'm sure that that's probably not allowed under this [13:45] Eric Johnson: yeah like say right now it's it would be allowed but you'd get your 200 square or basically to get you two per square feet right that's how you break it up like you said if you wanted to have a sign on three sides you could but that's all coming off of let's call it 100 square 100 foot long building of your 200 square feet each one is is eating into that per se [14:05] Corey Colquist: correct because we're not restricting where science can be we're just restricting the square footage of it and that needs to be expanded [14:15] Eric Johnson: yeah that's the question I mean is it is I'm just spitballing now but is it the idea of doing two square feet for every lineal foot on that particular Road for example you know so that Domino's building for example would have the lineal footage that's facing the quick trip and Millennial footage that's facing the highway that would allow you to to get up there to get the signage that those National tenants are looking for and maybe it's not so much the word Road Frontage because in a couple like for instance I'm going to say this the Burger King spot because the backside of their faces bullions is not a roadway [14:55] Corey Colquist: correct [14:56] Eric Johnson: but I'm sure they're probably if there's not already there'd like to be a sign there there are some that it's maybe a finished facade or something like that right that obviously you're not going to put it in the back of the other building where it faces a residence doesn't make any sense but correct yeah yeah I mean there's got to be some common sense to it but there also has to be accommodation for us we're getting more and more not mom and pop businesses in the city where there are corporations have got strict guidelines on what the signage needs to be I mean it's it's tough to do [15:25] Beth Wenzloff: and I don't know if that can be handled on a case-by-case basis I mean maybe there's a way to do that I still think it should be the the square footage if you have a 60 you are to give them the ones on the 20 I mean the 100 but then that two feet for every square foot on the 60 side that's the size on that side and then each one get it from that if you if you only have 60 feet then that's the amount of signage you can have on that side is is where I've always read it as that and I fought for that with the city of Duluth and have gotten that this is the way I'm not asking for a 40-foot sign here I have it on the front but not on the side because this is the shorter side so that you are more in line with what the size of the building it's sort of consistently going around [16:35] Eric Johnson: correct yeah yeah and yeah and then so maybe that's the question or debate do you allow it on sides that face a road and then same thing you can put it on all four sides if you want you just you're getting additional square footage on that this is called the 60 wall because before you just get it on the 100 wall and same thing you want to have it on Far Side that's fine you've got a little bit higher number it's just how you break it up [16:55] Beth Wenzloff: no you you do the two foot I know what you're saying but do we want it do we want to go that way I'm asking this to the group right I know what I know what you're saying you're seeing every wall from from a from a national tenant coming in it's it's required if we're wanting the commercial buildings to grow keep them keep them in you know we can do a lot of stuff to make them look good but there's your building added a ton of signage I pointed to your building all the time you know you've got that a lot of signage but it looks good it's it's not overwhelming um it's really difficult Gordy's building we have we have 29 tenants in there and I'm making new signs right now in fact I've got one left to do and it's tough because we've not allowed because of having battles with the city we've not been allowed to do different things so we're trying to come up with a nice in-between between the big sign that we have and then what's on the walls [18:10] Eric Johnson: and that's at least with staff that was the debate back is if we don't address multiple sides the thought was and I'm talking staff that that's where the monument sign or the pylon sign comes in that you have but you can't read it yep and so that's and then that becomes worthless except for you know because you've got somebody swinging through that becomes an issue too it's tough so I'm going to take this one step further then let's say on your address Frontage that you get two square feet per lineal foot but maybe on your side wall you get one square foot because you think about it if you've got a 60 if you've got 120 square feet and a 60 foot wall that could be a lot of that could be of some big signage and do we want to control that by saying no you get on your main you get two square on your side wall it's it's a it's one it's a half whatever it is that we're still not nascaring it or having large signs but we're still at least providing some flexibility [19:10] Dante Tomasoni: where did the two foot rule come from is that like a nationwide standard or it's just [19:20] Eric Johnson: it's you see a lot of different measurements throughout it's what the city had established years ago so was it there's really no Rhyme or Reason to it that way well like I said what what put the Advent in a I did some work years ago in Hilton Head and they had this one of the strictest sign policies you could ever see they are controlling awning callers and everything and it was just this uniformity and so you just had block letters and it was very easy to control and do those things said I'm going to pick on your building Joel with um is it Peak who's the you know you look at their side that's a big sign that's a big sign and you know if you measure that that whole signage why you know I don't know what I don't know what the square footage of that after my top ahead but it's a large number and that's what we happened and even with uh friends and bank and uh the dental that came in next to it the dental came second and they had like 10 square feet left over it's like how do you how do you accommodate those things and that's what the discussion was each tenant base guaranteed X number of square feet that's one way around it or maybe like you said that we you start opening it up for the sidewalls and do you maybe have language that even if you don't put it on that sidewall you still have gained that extra cup 30 square feet [21:05] Corey Colquist: okay wouldn't that fall on the landlord though or do they all have to come individually [21:15] Eric Johnson: it's tough because as a landlord you get 10 tenants and you get so much square footage so you get 20 square feet for your sign and now your sign is 18 inches tall and 12 feet long to get to that and it's so small you can't read it you know it's it's not an easy scenario it really isn't and we've been duking it out for 17 years on this and they said if we had all signage or block letters it's easier to do that because you know a developer can do a master sign plan and say you see I've seen before in the architectural world you know sign band and here it is here's your rectangle and this is what you get but we're not at the point where we're controlling that you know we're allowing logos this that Graphics so it blows that out of the water so it's hard on the developer in a master sign plan it really is because every tenant has their own individual identity and their own individual brand and they want to bring that through with their signage and those are that is one of the first questions I hear from anybody I talk to what can we do for signage you know and it's it's on the existing buildings where I know already it's an easy answer you can look at what the last time they had and kind of replicate that you know but on something new it's difficult you know we're working on a new project for here in Hermantown and to be honest with you the monument sign would be way too small you know if you've got the same thing at Gordy's you've got 20 some tenants in the facility yep and the signs become so tiny it's not even worth doing or like you said you just represent like the two anchors and then the rest of them are sorry you're not on the sign or your band is much smaller right yeah no it's difficult and we used to do it based on square footage we used to say whoever had the most square footage got the bigger sign and that wasn't fair in the long run because a national tenant like a Starbucks is a much smaller square footage than even a lot this is today you know it's it's they demand the most yes yeah yeah but I mean that's just it's it's a battle and it's not easy to do and I think I I can't come up with an example of a building in Hermantown that I think is oversigned that is just beyond stupid you know it's just I I can't come up with that yet so I mean whatever the city's been doing over the last seven years to accommodate special requests for signs on multiple sides of buildings or to squeak past the code a little bit has worked just fine because again I can't come up with one that that's ridiculous [23:25] Joe Peterson: I have to take a time out my battery is running out my computer and this is where we're taping so I apologize I'll be right back [23:35] Corey Colquist: it's all good and you can see me crawl around the floor which is a scary sight with two weeks do you want me to do this for you you want me to get do something for you again they can't they're not supposed to [Music] happen they can but they don't want to but no even a small mom and pop one's the biggest sign they can possibly get you know I think a lot of people make mistakes on their signs like it doesn't need to say due north of huge lives it needs to say pizza because you're driving by on the highway you don't know what dude North is but you know what pizza is you know there's a lot of things I could change with science as well but it's it is this is a difficult one for anybody that does commercial development that is for sure Hermantown could spring for a high definition screen instead of the low definition that they put up so I drive past that every day and you can't hardly read it yeah right on the drives me nuts yeah [24:45] Beth Wenzloff: in Superior we do have the ability to on a multi like just the strips that we have so much over the front sure that however white your front is you get that percentage of the front which makes it nice then everybody if you've got a little more square footage you can spread it out a little bit but everybody gets a spot right like Hermantown Square where MacKenzie's is that one turned off right all the signs are basically the same size and they lay out because those units are all basically the same size you know but again down at the Burger King Domino's or at the Western Bank building where it's like but I don't think it's on three sides but it doesn't look bad but I don't think McKenzie's would qualify now uh I I'd have to check on that Jim was pretty strict with me back then was he yeah I was looking at one time and I thought boy I want I got the Pelican coffee one was probably overboard but that's come down now because I used to have the one facing the credit union and yeah yeah but that's again an example of time perfect and and it should be yeah no no different than that new friends and bank that's facing two roads right [26:00] Eric Johnson: it was funny when I saw this I went oh man laughs no so on that same vein I say fall out of my chair we had a National fast food chain that already existed in Duluth that wanted to come to Hermantown and they walked because of signage and in their case there was a lot of signage but some of those places have tons of sizes especially if you start calling the graphics in their Windows exactly [26:40] Corey Colquist: and that's what we started to touch on in this ordinance a bit too yeah because I for instance king of creams that's the one I was just thinking of yep [26:55] Eric Johnson: so and should that should that be counted right the way this is envisioned is it goes towards your 200 square right it was something on that building it was counted towards it but like the banners that change in the window of Burger King for example for their slushie of the month those never counted because it wasn't like a permanent name but it says it here paper does yeah I know not a good thing yeah I mean but it all depends on how strict somebody's going to read the code and enforce it but it shouldn't be we shouldn't be saying that we should say should the code say it at all or not right yeah it's a tough one I'd love to hear people's suggestions or ideas or what you've seen in other cities because it's like I said you drive around any major city and there's signs on multiple sides of every building the way this reads that's enough love pretty much [27:40] Dante Tomasoni: well it's it's not that it's not allowed that we're not you can put them on multiple sides but you're getting the your longest Frontage is where we're measuring it from so I'm just using a hundred square hundred long building because it's easy math right so uh just general questions Inside by for an expert on this and have never really thought of it until today but uh just as time changes obviously since this ordinance was written things are different but now that you're getting into more digital signage and as the cost become less with LCD and led and everything else but how is there any kind of Direction in this code towards that so if you're a business could you just put up a bunch of flashing signs everywhere [28:30] Eric Johnson: yeah no they're all Limited in here yeah yeah we do we do address like reader boards and different things like that um we had a new a business that's coming in wanted to put up a five by ten LED reader board and since but again it's like never seen one that big so we looked around and the uh the odd Shrine has one and so we measured that I think that was generally a four by eight and so we said to this person says we're in the midst of a sign ordinance you should do a four by eight and there you go they said sure we'll do that but if you don't put upper limits on things you know said five by ten and congrats along the highway but that that's a big sign [29:35] Dante Tomasoni: well the two in Duluth that's huge on um Central entrance they're not on a bill there are Mars the Billboards yeah the bill exactly [29:45] Eric Johnson: Billboards we don't get into the Billboards that way we do have like that's a Class D signed but we're you know we're just released more touching a bit more on the C signs on that that you know oh I got to yep because it was in here sure then the other is the moving parts of um things with moving things that that's you're saying none of those yeah because the problem is it would be redeem is a safety issue as far as I guess what is your definition of moving things grand opening I've got something out there flinging around a lot of those becomes a temporary sign the the that's currently had a guy that falls is all wrong like that we view those as temporary that we don't generally get into those okay now if that was somebody had it incorporated into a permanent sign it would be prohibited in here another simple one um 14 2006 danger to traffic the word stop go slow caution danger warning what about the signs that people put in the neighborhoods slow down kids kids crossing things like that [31:05] Beth Wenzloff: we not that's not envisioned as part of this but it's a sign but it's a sign though it's true and once again how much do we want to regulate absolutely that's what I'm saying if you say no then somebody's gonna scream no when they and we we have places that we put slow down because the traffic flies on the back side of our buildings and we put slow down signs on those and this would say I couldn't put those up there and yet it's a safety issue not to have that there [31:40] Corey Colquist: have we ever looked at other cities I mean we're not the first city to run into this [31:50] Eric Johnson: that's Gunner Johnson did a lot of work lifting other communities and you've seen some I mean Duluth think they hired a consultant to write a sign ordinance you know so you see other that was one of the discussions we had is do we want to keep this just a word format ordinance because you look at some other communities they have graphic pictures they have examples you know that's pretty right yeah and we chose not to go that way right all right [32:25] Corey Colquist: again I fall back on my statement where I can't come up with a building in Hermantown that looks ridiculous today I mean is there a way to move forward with something like this where somebody could come and ask for a special use sign ordinance if they had some real crazy requirements where they had to come so you wouldn't have to turn away that fast food place for example [32:45] Eric Johnson: yeah right now that's not the nature of the variances or special uses that way okay that gets into like a setback or things like that it's a very that's not meant to circumvent those type of sure [33:00] Corey Colquist: but instead of losing that perspective uh business in the city couldn't they come to us with a presentation of what they want to create and have somebody look at and go yep that's fine or gosh that's really Overkill you know and I realize that Line's got to be drawn somewhere and all of us would probably drive that line in a different spot I get that but there's got to be some some common sense on that and that's why we we want to have flexibility but we don't want it to be subjective and that's where you start running into it's like architectural codes that I'm sure you run into because I think a pink building with orange spots looks nice but you don't and and we had one turn around because they wouldn't let the colors come in so yeah I mean it's it's a killer so that I mean I'm you know at least Eric the person I see some potential Merit in including at least one additional side of a building you know that has multiple frontages the question is like I said I'm Eric I'm not necessarily the city at this point so right but it's I guess I said let's just turn this this is turning more into psych a discussion this is not going to go forward tonight and I don't think it should I think this is at least you know a good point to start discussing some of these things yeah the same thing it's like you know get some writing of explanations of some of these hot points and yeah we can go further with that and um the I guess would just um I'm gonna look to more of the development based people on the console or I guess what are some other things that you can call it in different communities faces this seemed to work well or that was just a bad idea [34:35] Beth Wenzloff: I was sure I was saying what in Superior on strips we get so much square footage per day over whatever their front is and that's sort of based on that and if they fret both sides they get both sides um it's it's again it's trying to accommodate everybody you know and yet having it to where it's it's so much per side and more equal you know your neck can't be huge but if you've got a lot longer you could fill that out if your Bay is wider than the next Bay that's narrow um where Austin jar Owens Chicos and all those they've done that again that's how they give it to you is how much you've got over there you get like 80 percent of over your windows that so it makes it equally [35:35] Valerie Rowlett: so I have a random question be more familiar with institutional signage and standards and things like that not wanting to maybe become here's exactly all the fonts you have to use and here's exactly what you have to do is there some process or way where the city could basically say you could propose your signage and we'll have some sort of basis on what it needs to look like depending on the size of the building the location Etc and you can help facilitate kind of the signage master plan so that the city is giving you know specific instruction but not necessarily limiting or letting someone do more than someone else if that makes sense at all [36:20] Eric Johnson: well right now you have to do a signed permit and it comes in it's reviewed by the building department says does this meet the requirements it's a save you've got a 30 foot long building actually I'm going to pick on like an O'Reilly Auto Parts a standalone that still has some decent Frontage we would measure it's like okay it's 60 feet wide you get 120 square feet we see we just do some measurement okay it works right now it says oh there's a graphic associated with it and what flexibility do we have to kind of make this work so we do that in a way but I don't believe and in order I think we should go the route of once again Aesthetics and get into that and I could see with institutional because a lot of it's about branding and you want to have the same look that way [37:05] Valerie Rowlett: I guess a better example would be like if you take if O'Reilly's was in Flacco for example the Hermantown Marketplace and maybe they they wanted multiple signs instead of just taking a blank square footage you could say here's Hermantown Marketplace as long as you can follow these General guidelines here's what you could do and have flexibility in that sense instead of having a hard and fast like square footage number [37:35] Eric Johnson: right now we generally group our the C sign for instance is allowed in all the commercial-based districts Marketplace c1ca et cetera Etc BLM that's how we kind of cover those things so [Music] um I said right now it's it's a totally based on a square footage basis and then for the most part is that it generally works for single user buildings oh for sure [38:00] Beth Wenzloff: so like I said it's the hard part you know as we start getting more development and multi-tenant buildings that's where the issue becomes [38:10] Eric Johnson: we don't need all to make the fee schedule reflect how much signage you want and how many no we don't want to go that route because you just buy your way into more signs so I mean Part of Me on ideal that would make it you know I'm not saying it's 20 bucks more if you want another sign that that tenant's paying for it not the landlords and we we don't have a whole lot of we still need to be able to control something too okay [38:40] Corey Colquist: so I'm gonna I'm throwing some stuff out there is the ability to measure at a minimum two building sides assuming they have Road Frontage been I can say like it don't like it I look I'm hearing the idea of a minimum allotment per Bay so at least you know you're guaranteed 25 square feet or whatever it is you're 50 square so that helps the fourth first last person coming in um I guess I'm trying to think what else [39:10] Eric Johnson: until you have a multi-tenant building that were changing walls to add shrink it goes from four to eight pretty quickly yep and that's what we we talked about as well that's what we did that's why we didn't go that road from the staff is what happened same thing that the four bay user becomes one right but then you still say yeah we've got a bay that doesn't face a major road right bolt The Mink behind valentinis you know they don't face a major road they still want to sign well in theory you say it faces 53. no faces sugar maple Bolton mink the way it's turned there [39:55] Joe Peterson: well Mike has two Suites in that building they have the old CrossFit in the back and they're still facing the front [40:05] Eric Johnson: oh so you're saying that the sweet and back yeah there's a sweet that doesn't even face the highway or like the three-story building on Richard Avenue you've got 10 Insider only on the Haynes roadside and tenants that are only on the the Richard Avenue side I mean it's it's a quagmire when you go multi-story and multi-tenant it really is it's not easy no [40:25] Corey Colquist: and then that should be its own category that very well might be and that might be an easy way to do that because you've got somebody story for this month yeah I think that we can handle multi-tenant single story I think there's a road forward with that right with a side on the streets yeah on the streets I I agree with that I think that but if when you get into a multi-tenant multi-story it it does because you do have a whole different thing that they should get this side they should get this side and not vote [41:00] Joe Peterson: or take our new building on Richard Avenue for example with Famous Dave's in it Famous Dave's would love to have signs on three sides they would love to have their sign over their front door the sign facing Maple Grove and they'd love to have a sign of the back facing Sam's Club right that then they only went with two because we were trying to save on square footage now the two other tenants on the ground level have signs on the building but nobody upstairs does and they all want them but where do you put them you know put them down low in front of another 10 in space and then they start to look dumb when they're up there by themselves I mean there are it's it's crazy and so now I'm gonna go on that same rationale that we did on long side short side maybe you say on a multi-story building let's say we have three stories we have three signed bands for lack of better words and it's once again we'll use our 100 foot long building instead of saying each right now we say you get 200 square feet right we don't want to say and this is I don't believe we want to say you get 200 square feet per floor per floor right maybe on multi-story buildings it's one square foot per Frontage per band and then you know at the end of the day it's 300 square feet this is 200 square feet it's accommodated more signs but you kept it within reason right they weren't smaller sides of that way [42:35] Eric Johnson: in that three-story office building on Richard Avenue I only had to put my foot down and say nobody in the tower portion of the three-story section can have a sign because I couldn't make everybody happy it was impossible sure you know but you've got you know real estate agents in there you've got engineers in there you've got accounting firms you've got Financial Services you've got State Farm agents and none of them have any signs on the billion they would all take them tomorrow if I would let them but I had to stop it because we couldn't figure out a way to do it you know and I had that conversation with the city at the same time how do you do this yeah you know it's just that bridge that hasn't been crossed yet I do think that would be a good separate thing I think it's I think it's worthy of having its own special you know and if that was of six or seven story office building it had different floors I mean I think it's dumb to have them in the second floor of the third for the fourth floor I can see the main level and I can see the Top If you had a big tenant in there you know like our new office building that we're working on you know has got a a bank that wants to go in and they want basically naming rights of the building you know and how do you how do you accomplish that with some of the restrictions in the sign code what the other six tenants in the building you know they want to be known as ABC Bank building you know it's uh it's it's not easy by any stretch of the imagination [44:05] Joe Peterson: this is actually tougher than most of the things we Face most of the things we Face are check the box yup this makes sense have a nice day but this one is difficult especially looking forward and the changes you're seeing in the buildings and the projects coming to the city like I said you don't want to lose a business you don't want to be anti-business but just because of your sign ordinance and I'm going to use example on pylon science we have in the ordinance you have X number of square feet of Road Frontage you get one side you go up to the 300 to 500 you get a second sign that maybe multi-story will say for instance and I'm just talking two-story building each band is two square feet three-story you know it kind of as you get taller buildings let's say it's a seven story building each band gets a half a square foot so you still at the end of the day you don't have a thousand square feet of sign on there but you might have 500 where you in reality you could only add 200 that you've still kept it within reason but you have some like but it was multiplier as you as a building increases in size or floors and then you get like one of the buildings in our new project that we're working on there's areas that the tenants are they don't even face the road you know that it's they still want to sign over their door you know it's it's really difficult honestly it's for somebody who lives it day in and day out it is difficult and I know you know what I'm talking about now oh yeah most people don't even think about it it doesn't even cross their mind you know but if you have to live with it and try to answer those questions it is not easy to put it on paper [45:45] Dante Tomasoni: I agree that most people don't think about it so I don't think we have any sort of problem right now um the other thing I guess I'm struggling to wrap my head around is why you know Foreside all four sides wouldn't be accommodated I mean for me I wouldn't put a sign facing my back parking lot it just wouldn't really make sense same in the back of Gordy's facing um [46:15] Eric Johnson: but if there was a small tenant that if they might only have a customer or two that stopped by a day it's nice to see that signage or just I'm kind of struggling with that sure [46:30] Dante Tomasoni: it made me gets that same rationalize this book but with multiple stories that multiple sides the foreign address side is two square feet secondary Frontage side one square feet rear and backside half square foot I don't know that same thing that you you ratchet it down but you still but at the end of the day you can still combine all that and have one really big sign I don't know even if it needs to be combined so no I don't like to combine but I do like it per side because you do have in Gordy's you have a bunch of tenants that that is their main entrance and we've allowed them to put signs up there because that's the only way you know where they are [47:20] Eric Johnson: so I have one last question just for sake of argument I guess because I I totally get the business perspective and I can see how this would be really challenging right especially as you have different tenants and different levels of tenants Etc so I get what essentially what a business wants they want to maximize their visibility it's like maximizer business from the city's perspective I mean what's the city's goal with the sign ordinance in general is it to provide Clarity and prevent the conversations that we have with Joe and the fourth tenant comes in and I'm just picking on you yeah you're doing multi-tenant buildings right is when you know the national you know the guy because honestly it's not Joel coming to me it's the business owner or the person wrapping them they're ready to sign on the line and they can only get three square feet of signs what's wrong with you City and we say you don't want to say we should have talked to Joe because if you're going to control this signage better you wouldn't be into this issue that way [48:30] Dante Tomasoni: but how much is it how much is this actually just should be in the landlord's hands as opposed to the city's hands and it's uh it seems like we're kind of I mean we're trying to put objective guidelines on our really subjective issue right especially the way the city of Hermantown is designed I mean you know you can see if it was more like a downtown if we had a downtown area where you'd want to give each business kind of an equal opportunity you're kind of doing a narrow Corridor but we're really scattered and a lot of this probably Falls maybe on the landlord themselves and do we want to be the city that takes that decision away from the landlord to control the signage and control which tenant deserves the big sign which tenant doesn't is my building ugly is it not is it marketable is it not so how do we is there I don't know if there's an education level for for us or for the city but you know why did we want this ordinance here why did we want this ordinance here and is there flexibility to run that and you know I mean we're trying to it seems like a tough balance because we're trying to create an objective standard for something that's really subjective in its own [49:40] Joe Peterson: so so how do we run that you know if we're just doing foot by foot well then all of a sudden we might have you know we might have a landlord that misses out on a really Nation you know a really big tenant that could potentially change your whole business model just because they want a bigger sign well why not give them the bigger sign it you know it might be on the highway it might be in the back road it might there's just there's so much going on we don't have that business Corridor like typical cities do so I I don't know the answer but it sounds like you know uh an education piece on certain ideas might be part of it [50:15] Samuel Clark: kind of bouncing off what Dante said having never thought of this until this agenda packet came out it seems kind of I'm not really following the square footage it's like two square feet per linear footster it just to me that doesn't make a lot of sense it seems very like you kind of said if you need to pick a number but it doesn't necessarily translate into reality [50:40] Joe Peterson: to be honest that that has worked out fairly good over my 17 years of doing this uh that is going to be real close but you run into the scenarios where you've got the multi-floor or the tenant that doesn't face the streets and stuff like that that's it works great 80 of the time honestly I mean and again I've been dealing with Hermantown for 17 years on this and not picking on the city but I don't know how to answer these questions and I've been thinking about it for almost two decades I don't have the solution [51:25] Eric Johnson: so maybe it's more of a landlord's responsibility slash how you classify a building because the problem is changes right a building changes so drastically in in a 10-year period you would not believe how a building changes the all-new people even the technology not only designs not only technology of science but you have this guy has now taken two and a half times this one and this guy's gotta you know it it is this it's crazy I mean like and like I said I think 80 of the time you can fall back on the two square feet per we can only have so that works [52:10] Joe Peterson: but I think there's got to be a way where somebody who really is looking for Change and feels that they need it and they can present their case they can get 25 more or something like that I realized you'd run into that case all the time though because everybody every tenant wants the biggest sign [52:30] Eric Johnson: I think that's that's been more that the issue is you know as you know I said it's easy on um who's your end cap on your uh 6 000 square foot building the bank Western Bank Western Bank Western bank's easy because it's a it's a linear sign band it's hard on the peak housing it's hard on the ones that have a lot of more ornate type of things it's same thing if you snap the polyline around that whole thing that's a big sign [53:15] Joe Peterson: that's a big sign I agree [53:20] Eric Johnson: and so but it in except Western Bank type works out great more than you can probably with your 200 square you could probably accommodate it but Western Bank has three signs yeah three sides but it'd be kind of curious what's the depth on that in that uh instead of 25 Bay or uh there's this 20 27. there's basically So in theory they get 54 square feet right and you know that with their three signs yeah so it's maybe the business Community is is there a certain aspect of this that we want regulated so it makes it easier on the landlord for example so that you can't go this my hands are tied or is it do you want that does the business Community want that full flexibility to really be able to negotiate with their tenant [54:15] Joe Peterson: yeah like I said I had literally had to put my foot on the three-story building and said nobody gets assigned period and they were pissed with me big time the leases are already signed they're expecting to get signage I had done some sign Renditions of where we thought we might go because I was presenting my case to the city to get more square footage and I finally said nope none and to me that's a that's a good example of maybe it's better left in the landlord's hands than it is in the cities um [54:55] Dante Tomasoni: well for me if I was one of your dependents I would say if I'm paying for this space I need to be able to have people find exactly [55:10] Joe Peterson: honestly I've it's been it's been in my mind for 17 years and I can't solve it it's what happens if you have no signage ordinance I mean you don't want it to turn into a NASCAR but you want it to be presentable and you want it to be nice and my idea of nice and presentable might be different than yours you know that's why there's got to be some guidelines for it but again you don't want to let businesses walk because they can't get a sign and we're lucky in the fact that we don't have a business Corridor in a way because I think of the central entrances our attorney is talking about I think is like a specific State Highway in Bemidji your Brainerd or something like that where the businesses are tied up on the roadway and you you cite down and you see nothing but signs yeah and it's and you look at it says this is ugly yeah Denver is just yeah [56:10] Beth Wenzloff: what about making two different things what if there's a sign ordinance for the c commercial this is basically the highway where everybody faces the one road and you change it for the marketplace where you've got people driving around all sides of all the buildings [56:30] Eric Johnson: well just to play a devil's advocate or you know we're going well this is ugly but we don't want to get into whether it looks good or not right right so someone said I would just say too ugly but it's like it's almost like yeah I've had that yeah I've had things that have that impact yeah I get what you mean but we're yeah we're trying not to get into subjectiveness but we're trying to say that that was so judgment to the businesses because if you see too many signs it's just like well [57:15] Joe Peterson: in a way I mean I I like kind of how where Beth was going that if you just don't have it specific to zonius keep it commercial so it's still c1c H Marketplace that it's that same you get your two square on the on the on your major Frontage and yeah you can have one square in the other ones if you want to you don't have to if you don't want to right right I mean it's like I said and some of them you it won't happen because there's no yeah so we'll have more yeah if you combine you will yeah exactly per side some people are going I'm not going to waste my money over there another one will go sure I want that our building at Miller Plaza we have you know we have some in on the ends we have some different places but that's how I got it tended in there is to say look it I'll give you this one up here which you can see all the way down Central entrance right you have to do it you know and like I said I think there's more and more places off the highway that are facing multiple roads or multiple directions on the same road the oil change place is a prime example on Haynes Road they've got signs facing north and signs facing south and I bet if I put a tape measure on it they're over the ordinance today oh yeah you know but it doesn't look bad that's what I'm getting at I mean there's got to be some way to per se yeah to frame that [58:25] Eric Johnson: yeah so is there some takeaways that we want to give the city or like our five top points and they come back at it I mean bring it back to this board for us to so Eric how do we want to move forward piggyback analog Corey's saying here um Gunner did a lot of this Gunner did a lot yeah and it's it was back and forth with staff and it was kind of that same thing it's like involved in okay how um same thing you know we had the discussion about multiple signage you know in the in the multiple stories and this it wasn't gaining attraction it was just like no let's let's keep it simple but by keeping it simple it's not meeting a lot of the needs of business owners it sounds like [59:10] Corey Colquist: sorry and that's why I I what you're saying Sam and Valerie is is basically you know it's great to hear from a pedestrian standpoint for lack of better words what your thoughts are what you know things that you see and so you know it's good to hear those things as well so I mean one more I'm just on Corey but I think this is a staff that we'd love to hear you should look at X Y and Z and then we can do as a staff standpoint okay what communities have something like that that will help us either craft the language or no we can't find it what is crafted ourselves [59:55] Eric Johnson: sure right and that's what I was kind of thinking still because otherwise we can be your own right now that's it that's what I was thinking what was the process sure and so as as commissioner colquis was going to talk about takeaways you know do we need anything right emails together some some different things and then at least send it between us and then between us send it to them because there are a lot of things that the abandoned [60:30] Beth Wenzloff: one quick one abandoned signs um I think of the one that uh bluesneck has for the old the old building of the second not the Subaru behind yep we have protected that sign like crazy because knowing that you'll never get that again if that sign comes down are you saying abandoned face and leaving the structure there so I can replace the face or are you now talking about taking down that precious thing that we know will never get back so we protected at all costs and I have to look at some clarification so don't even ask well I do that those are huge I mean we tell people we have one ugly one on Fourth Street ugly and yet it's like don't touch it you can reface it don't touch anything else about it because they don't allow these we at all costs don't hit it don't you know we know we'll never be back again that's where that kind of stuff I mean it's important especially like that when it's out in the middle of nowhere yeah it's almost it's like a grandfathered sign essentially it's like yeah as long as you replace the face you're still fine but if that sign came down you put up a fresh one it'd be smaller than that yeah that's the problem [61:45] Corey Colquist: all right so how do we want to move forward you want to give us like three or five snapshots Corey of what you're taking away here do you want to [61:55] Dante Tomasoni: well I think graph emails you guys got this I'm just well I don't know if we even can do that right yeah I know what console's an issue because you can't it's the meeting was that way I don't know I guess most simply than my formal comments would be is there some way you could make more of a sliding scale instead of just having like a blanket square footage so you could address different buildings whether it's multi-story multi-tenant or single use something like that even three categories instead of one [62:30] Beth Wenzloff: so I think I said I think we've got a handle on single story multi-tenant I'm gonna throw it out and I get the head nods or thumbs down two on the major roadway one on the secondary roadway one on the back and the side half on the back and the side I like two all the way around yeah it would be hits we won't go that way that's we that's too far of a straight one one and one and then two on the front because then you if if you you're not gonna put it on something that faces nowhere yep exactly and that's and that's up to the the owners yes we're giving them the option but if they have parking all the way around the building that changes things but if they don't then they're never going to use it so it's just there [63:25] Dante Tomasoni: I guess my second then would be following that would be could you have a minimum square footage percentage per tenant and a maximum I don't think you're gonna go Max because you don't know how what that bay is going to be I think it's more the minimum so then last person in is guaranteed that I've got 50 square feet at least 25 or some or some and some way to say it's like a visible sign so it can't just be like one sticker I think it's in my mind and I'm not a developer in real estate but the sign is more than just a placehold it's advertised and now one of the things they put the most thought into too [64:15] Joe Peterson: exactly and from my perspective it's like I want the biggest and as much as I can get that's every tenant and engineering to hear you you're gonna like kitchen home and it's kind of discouraging other things because we want these businesses to prosper and grow and survive and without signage it's tough to do [64:45] Valerie Rowlett: could each tenant have a minimum sign size so like even if you had a multi-tenant building everyone at least gets one minimum sign and then you could still have some sort of I mean it would be just plastered [65:05] Beth Wenzloff: yeah I was going to say it might be a zero this might be the minimum sign like you said you had to reject I basically tell everybody you can't do it yeah and the pylon type doesn't work because it's too small is that depends on me you're in the building in her case she's got almost 30. [65:25] Joe Peterson: we figure out a way to get most of them on there like little one foot by five foot but you can't read especially when it it is is stuck it's something but also the gym that's a huge square footage just shouldn't have the same size sign if somebody's got 500 square feet no they should you know it's it's really it's really tough It's a combination of the landlord doing stuff according to the guidelines the city's giving them and we try yeah we we try to do the best we can but there's still things that boy it's tough [66:10] Corey Colquist: yeah and I think I said that I think for the most part it has worked oh for sure yeah it's it's it's hard to Last Tenant in is that's where we've been finding the problems right especially like Beth says as buildings change over 10 or 15 years that 3 000 square foot sweep becomes three now and yeah now you've got 50 square feet divided by three tenants to get signage I mean it's and it happens it's tough yeah it's well in that case you would still well yeah I don't know okay [66:45] Joe Peterson: so I think we want some more guidance if I'm not mistaken here we'll make a motion shortly on be more guidance on multi-story multi -sided buildings does that make sense facing multiple directions or multiple roads two different things yeah yeah but we're looking out for that sort of thing and then multiple sides correct [67:15] Beth Wenzloff: yeah and I guess I would be curious to see if But there again I never drove through a city and said while their signage is dialed in in this city so I um but I guess I'd be curious to see what other cities are doing as far as what that that number is [67:40] Joe Peterson: yeah one that's really nice is Blaine around the soccer fields they've done a nice job because there's so many buildings that are in the middle of I'll call them parking lots where there are six or eight buildings and they're not facing roads they're just on and they all have nice signs for the tenants on front and rear because you can drive clean around all the buildings honestly that's that's my favorite one of all the ones I've driven around and is is the Blaine area by the soccer fields is that there's a lot of tenants in that area all the way from a Menards all the way down to small pizza places knows that like Monument science style those are those are race Channel letter signs on the buildings okay [68:40] Eric Johnson: now well I work for Blaine back when the same thing the guy loved Hilton Head and he wanted at the point anything along what's it what's the road what's the main road that closed north south I don't remember yeah I can't remember whatever is he wanted all those uniforms across the board [68:55] Beth Wenzloff: yeah see they're not anymore yeah you know like I said that long strip mall that's got the Chipotle and stuff in it the all those that's the back side of the building is facing the highway and they all have nice shines it doesn't look like the back of a building it looks nice but there's no parking on front of it there's no people walking in and out but then the buildings that are ancillary to the primary buildings which are next to the highway they all have nice signs too and it doesn't it doesn't look out of place it doesn't look like a cartoon it doesn't look crazy it's just nice and I understand again not wanting it to be stupid and obnoxious I get that too but that whoever did that one did a really nice job in that area but that also makes a back of a building that sometimes is very ugly look very nice oh for sure they're not seeing thinking it is oh that's they parked it [70:05] Corey Colquist: I remember Jim uh in Duluth said you need to turn this building this way and move it and all of a sudden well that's the back facing the road well then you have to then he goes well no we'll we'll have let's put signs on that side too and all you dress it up in your architectural all of a sudden that becomes a very good looking from all angles it dresses up a building so I think there's Merit to it I mean if you look at the four buildings we just built on Richard Avenue they are finished 100 all the way around yeah you know there's no front or back really to a couple of them so we have looking at other cities multiple levels what that would look like and then multiple tenants seem to be the three big takeaways as of right now yeah like I said I think it covers 80 of the scenarios no problem oh yeah multiple sides [71:05] Eric Johnson: and Eric it's not uncommon for a city to model after somebody that's already done it right nope not at all yeah so if it's something like we all we see maybe Blaine up here and we're like that is perfect that's how you manage it we I mean we could go that direction could we a lot of it is the look of this yeah and then you find it part of it is you gotta have the exam oh yeah yeah it's hard to objective it's and like I said that's why I think I was picking on either Bemidji or brain or it's the same thing you just saw the image of that State Highway and you look at it you're like yeah whoa I think it is Bemidji because if you go down the Main Street yeah I should sign after sign yeah like the buildings are hot close up on the roadway and yeah you've got the sign coming up here and then you got one in the building and yeah it's just it's again it wasn't hurting my feelings so look at two sign areas I think doesn't Duluth have a separate sign stuff for like the canal and things like that yeah they have different rights yeah yeah I mean you wouldn't have to shoehorn it into one one policy yeah just something to think about so basing signage of zonage could be I mean you could look at that the I understand I wanted to keep it simple too I guess in my only play The Advocate the other way is if you go that route one of the zone is going to be more restrictive more than likely the marketplace if you if you start breaking up into individual zoning districts because of the density of the buildings just the the basically we have a different explosive theme you know in the marketplace but I would tell you that there's way more buildings in the marketplace that don't have it I know I we talked on a Main Street yep [72:55] Samuel Clark: so yeah so it's basically it's multi-tenant single level buildings it's a question of what the allotment is per side then it's multiple story multi-tenant buildings how do we handle that is it per floor you get X number of square feet per what it's called a signed band and then do we translate that around all four corners of the building and we're developing the orientation of that building yeah exactly exactly so it's just yeah and again I'm not in favor of doing it like on the second or third or fourth or fifth floors I I have no problem on the the main level and the very top if there was a primary tenant or a naming rights of the building for example because we modeled up the three-story building four or five different ways and that was the best looking one to me [74:10] Eric Johnson: that and then that gets one of what you're saying Dante is it still has the landlord control is that the city has put a released a number on it and it's up to the the owner developer Etc we don't have to put that much yeah we don't like that look yeah commissioner clerk it indicated you know maybe there's some just parameters and then we have both the city the the parameters and the landlord the ability I mean part of me kind of says you know hey landlord if you made your building ugly I'm sorry they're gonna go rent over there so you know right right and so um but we don't want to do that as a city necessarily either but yeah it's a tough issue to find where the objective parameters are and where the subjectiveness is allowed yeah [75:10] Joe Peterson: as I said I think for the most part it's worked pretty well but there's always been these outliers and just with potential development here in the future and the way development is going those outliers are going to become more the norm and let's try to at least Aid help staff because we know how to give because our jobs to get guidance to people who approach us with stuff hey I'm gonna go take one thing this I've already understand that on a multi-tenant single store you cannot combine your square footage I would say not so I'm going to take that one step further on multi-story sign bands same principle that let's say you've got you have three bands of one square feet each 300 square feet can they do one Mass if they're in a square foot sign or they only choose to or it's basically I'm putting a signed ban at the at the bottom and at the top like Joe was talking about so you get that band you get that floor you can't add Explorer 2 to floor three right [76:10] Samuel Clark: I mean I would suggest that that's equally that's that's equal for the tenants as well if you get so much per band size for each floor or wherever again you're gonna as owners you're gonna limit that but it will allow for them to say yeah you could put on the third floor if you if you want to spend the money up there go for it I don't know who's going to see it but yeah you can do that [76:45] Eric Johnson: but the third floor in some buildings would be the best for you absolutely so I think it really needs to be that direction so what would a motion look like today let's hear it here I think you'd already have to make the motion is I think staff needs to look a little bit further based on our discussion this evening is that enough guidance [77:15] Corey Colquist: I think that's what he said I'm trusting that this is being tape recorded this evening this last meeting wasn't in that at least this will all be in the in the minutes until we can go through it again to get the fighter Point perfect [77:35] Eric Johnson: but at least the next the takeaways I'm hearing single story multi-tenant we got to look at that we're going to look at four sides that it's multiple story multi-tenant buildings how do we want to address that each floor gets a band X number of square feet does that translate onto all four sides or what at the end of the day is what kind of boils down to right all questions I've asked in the last three years and is there there won't be a variance process in this no okay [78:10] Corey Colquist: Mr chair I make a motion that the city staff does a deep dive uh into the items we have discussed and have been recorded over the last hour [78:30] Samuel Clark: thank you for that can we get a second [78:32] Dante Tomasoni: Thomasoni second [78:35] Corey Colquist: all in favor aye aye aye anybody opposed not hearing any 5A passes forward for the city to take a little harder look at it number six continuing business actually so I'm Dante woo the second yes yes okay thank you continuing business uh no but I would like to have a discussion in a new business about the date for the February meeting okay and I'm just telling that third week [79:15] Eric Johnson: so we have multiple options we can see if we just want to stick with Tuesdays we could do the 14th or the 18th that still gives us enough time to notice um or the I'm sorry I sent it to the 18th the 28th that the 14th will still give us a chance to notice uh I said expecting one thing on the agenda and this potential continuation honestly if it's the 14th we probably won't have enough time to do a deep dive the 28th thanks give staff a little bit more time for at least the sign ordinance but it's more or less what the availability is here as the well there's a side artists need to come back in February can they come back in March it could come back in March [80:10] Corey Colquist: I guess I would vote for Wednesday the 15th [80:15] Dante Tomasoni: Wednesday Wednesday is February 15th that would work for me it worked for me [80:25] Samuel Clark: I'm out of town basically the rest of the month after that but I don't need to be here Corey is more than capable of running the meeting the 15th the 15th would work for me I'm gone after the on the 17th through basically the rest of the month 15th would work for me as well [80:45] Corey Colquist: okay we'll say the 15th at 7 pm yep that's fine that doesn't interfere with Valentine's Day for anybody and and I don't believe as you said you've got something coming up meetings I'm sorry you said you've got something coming up and then at the sign ordinance it makes it great if it doesn't March is fine sure okay okay so we'll go on we'll go on March March February 15th at 7 p.m [81:20] Eric Johnson: that sounds good I'll just double check that with other city meetings but at this point let's go with that I think we would get primary for that I got booted at a meeting earlier today so did you yeah [81:35] Corey Colquist: number eight any Communications no number nine commission member reports myself nothing Mr colquist [81:45] Samuel Clark: Noah report [81:47] Valerie Rowlett: Valerie roulette Samuel Clark no report [81:50] Beth Wenzloff: Beth wenzloff no report [81:52] Dante Tomasoni: Dante tomasoni no report [81:55] Corey Colquist: thank you for that uh can we get a motion to adjourn please [82:05] Samuel Clark: Sam Clark with motion to adjourn [82:07] Corey Colquist: thank you for that can I get a second all in favor aye aye aye thank you very much everybody we'll close the meeting at 8 19 pm