[0:27] Chris Meyer: WELCOME, EVERYONE. WELCOME TO THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE MINNEAPOLIS PLANNING COMMISSION FOR FEBRUARY 10, 2025. I'M CHRIS MEYER, THE CHAIR OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION. AT THIS TIME I'LL ASK THE CLERK TO CALL THE ROLL TO VERIFY A QUORUM. [0:45] Clerk: COUNCIL MEMBER BAXLEY. [0:45] Commissioner Baxley: HERE. [0:45] Clerk: CAMPBELL IS ABSENT. CHOWDHURY IS ABSENT. CONLEY. [0:45] Commissioner Conley: HERE. [0:45] Clerk: GORDON. [0:45] Commissioner Gordon: HERE. [0:45] Clerk: JONES. [0:45] Commissioner Jones: HERE. [0:45] Clerk: MEYER. [1:03] Chris Meyer: HERE. [1:03] Clerk: SKJEFTE. [1:03] Commissioner Skjefte: HERE. [1:03] Clerk: WAGNER. [1:03] Commissioner Wagner: HERE. [1:03] Clerk: WE HAVE EIGHT MEMBERS PRESENT. [1:03] Chris Meyer: FIRST WE'LL MOVE TO ADOPT THE MINUTES. IS THERE A MOTION TO ADOPT THOSE MINUTES? IS THERE A SECOND? ANY DISCUSSION ON THE MINUTES? ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE. [1:24] Commissioners: AYE. [1:24] Chris Meyer: OPPOSED. NEXT WE'LL RECOGNIZE THE AGENDA. THE STAFF IS RECOMMENDING THAT ITEMS FOUR AND SIX BE ON CONSENT AND THAT WE DISCUSS ITEM FIVE. [1:40] Chris Meyer: WAS ANYONE HERE TO SPEAK AGAINST THE STAFF RECOMMENDATION FOR ITEM NUMBER 4 REGARDING 800, 828, AND 900 WASHINGTON AVENUE NORTH? ALL RIGHT. NOT SEEING ANYONE. AND WAS ANYONE HERE TO SPEAK AGAINST THE STAFF RECOMMENDATION FOR ITEM NUMBER 6, WHICH IS 2833, 2837, 2839 14th AVENUE SOUTH? ALL RIGHT. NOT SEEING ANYONE FOR THAT ONE EITHER. SO WE'LL HAVE ITEMS FOUR AND SIX ON THE CONSENT AGENDA, AND ITEM FIVE WILL BE DISCUSSED. ALL RIGHT. IS THERE A MOTION TO APPROVE THAT AGENDA AS I STATED? [2:23] Commissioner: SO MOVED. [2:23] Commissioner: SECOND. [2:23] Chris Meyer: ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE. [2:23] Commissioners: AYE. [2:23] Chris Meyer: OPPOSED. THE AGENDA IS ADOPTED. ALL RIGHT. SO I WILL OPEN THE CONSENT HEARING FOR ITEMS FOUR AND SIX. IF YOU WERE HERE AND WANTED TO SPEAK TO EITHER ONE OF THOSE, YOU CAN IF YOU WOULD LIKE. WOULD ANYONE LIKE TO SPEAK TO ANY ONE OF THOSE? ALL RIGHT. NOT SEEING ANY. SO I WILL CLOSE THE CONSENT HEARING. COMMISSIONERS, ARE THERE ANY COMMENTS OR QUESTIONS ABOUT OUR TWO CONSENT ITEMS? I WILL JUST MAKE ONE. I WAS REALLY EXCITED ABOUT ITEM NUMBER 6. [3:04] Chris Meyer: THAT'S THE TYPE OF PROJECT THAT WE DON'T SEE NEARLY ENOUGH OF. DO WE HAVE THE APPLICANTS RIGHT HERE? ARE YOU IN THE AUDIENCE? I JUST WANT TO APPLAUD YOU. IT'S NOT OFTEN THAT WE SEE PROJECTS THAT RISE TO THE PASSIVE HOUSE STANDARD AND THAT ARE SO FAMILY FRIENDLY. I SO LOVED THE SHARED BACKYARD THAT YOU HAVE FOR KIDS IN THAT PROJECT. YEAH. SO I JUST WANT TO APPLAUD THAT AND HOPE WE SEE MORE OF THAT. ALL RIGHT. IS THERE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE TWO ITEMS THAT WE HAVE ON CONSENT? [3:40] Commissioner: SO MOVED. [3:40] Chris Meyer: A SECOND? [3:40] Commissioner: SECOND. [3:40] Chris Meyer: ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE. [3:40] Commissioners: AYE. [3:40] Chris Meyer: OPPOSED, ABSTENTIONS. THAT IS ADAPTED. IF YOU'RE HERE FOR ITEMS FOUR THROUGH SIX, YOUR ITEMS ARE APPROVED. NOW WE'LL MOVE TO OUR ONE DISCUSSION ITEM, 411 WASHINGTON AVENUE NORTH. STAFF IS HILARY DVORAK. [4:24] Hilary Dvorak: ONE SECOND. I'M SORRY. I DOWNLOADED THE WRONG -- [4:44] Hilary Dvorak: OKAY. WELL WE'RE GOING TO JUST GO WITH IT. HOW ABOUT THAT? THAT WILL BE EASIER THAN TRYING TO START. THERE WE GO. SORRY. WE'RE GOING TO IMPROVISE. GOOD AFTERNOON. MY NAME'S HILARY DVORAK, I'M A PRINCIPAL PLANNER AND LAND USE DESIGNER PRESERVATION. I'M HERE FOR ITEM 5 ON THE AGENDA TONIGHT. THIS IS AN APPLICATION FOR THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE BUILDING LOCATED AT 411 WASHINGTON AVENUE NORTH AND 241 FIFTH AVENUE NORTH. THERE ARE TWO APPLICATIONS BEFORE YOU. [5:26] Hilary Dvorak: A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO LOCATE THE SIGN UP NEAR THE TOP OF THE BUILDING, AND A VARIANCE IT ALLOW A SIGN ON A NON-PRIMARY BUILDING WALL. AS YOU CAN SEE, THE SITE IS OCCUPIED BY TWO BUILDINGS. THIS BUILDING HERE WHERE IT SAYS ORANGE THEORY FITNESS, WHICH IS NOT THE NAME OF THE BUILDING. AND THEN THIS BUILDING HERE WHERE IT SAYS CALABRIO, THESE SIT ON ONE PROPERTY. THERE IS A PUBLIC ALLEY THAT RUNS TO JUST ABOUT THAT SKYWAY THAT IS PUBLIC AND SERVES A DIFFERENT PROPERTY, A SEPARATE PROPERTY HERE ON THE CORNER OF WASHINGTON AND FIFTH, AND ALSO SERVES THE TWO BUILDINGS THAT MAKE UP THE PROJECT SITE BEFORE YOU. [6:11] Hilary Dvorak: SO THE BUILDING ON THE CORNER IS, THIS IS A SELF-SERVICE STORAGE FACILITY FOR REFERENCE IN THE REPORT. THAT IS THE USE ON THE CORNER. THE APPLICANT IS PROPOSING TO INSTALL A SIGN ON THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE BUILDING, WHICH IS THE 241 NORTH 5th AVENUE. THIS IS THE 411 WASHINGTON. THERE'S NO SIGNAGE GOING ON TO, OR WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT SIGNAGE GOING ON TO THIS BUILDING. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A NEW SIGN ON THIS BUILDING. THIS EO1 MARK IS WHERE THAT PROPOSED SIGN WOULD BE LOCATED. THE PROPOSED SIGN WOULD BE MADE UP OF INDIVIDUAL LETTERS. [6:58] Hilary Dvorak: HERE'S AN IMAGE OF THE SIGN ON THE BUILDING. RENDERED IMAGE OF THE SIGN ON THE BUILDING, I SHOULD SAY. IT'S NOT UP. THE PROPOSED SIGN WOULD BE MADE OF INDIVIDUAL LETTERS ATTACHED TO A RACEWAY PERMANENTLY AFFIXED TO THE BUILDING. SIGN WOULD BE 17 FEET LONG. 59.5 SQUARE FEET. THE OVERALL HEIGHT OF THE BUILDING FROM GRADE WOULD BE 236 FEET. TO ALLOW THE SIGN AT THE TOP OF THE BUILDING THAT CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT IS REQUIRED. WE ARE RECOMMENDING APPROVAL OF THE CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT. THEY DO NEED A VARIANCE TO ALLOW A SIGN ON A NON-PRIMARY BUILDING WALL. [7:39] Hilary Dvorak: AND THE ZONING CODE DEFINES A PRIMARY BUILDING WALL AS A BUILDING WALL THAT FACES A PUBLIC STREET. SO WHILE THIS IS WASHINGTON AVENUE, AND THIS WALL, YES, DOES FACE WASHINGTON AVENUE, IT IS NOT A PRIMARY BUILDING WALL FOR SIGNAGE PURPOSES BECAUSE THERE IS ANOTHER PROPERTY OWNED BY A DIFFERENT OWNER IN FRONT OF IT. [8:02] Hilary Dvorak: SO I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR THIS IS NOT A PRIMARY BUILDING WALL EVEN THOUGH THIS BUILDING, IT IS TWO BUILDINGS ON ONE LOT, HAS FRONTAGE. IT DOES NOT MAKE THIS ELEVATION ON THIS BUILDING A PRIMARY BUILDING WALL. SO THEREFORE, THEY NEED THE VARIANCE. THERE ARE FOUR SIGNS ON THE BUILDING. THERE ARE THREE SIGNS ON THE 5th AVENUE SIDE. [8:24] Hilary Dvorak: THERE'S THE CALLABRIO SIGN LOCATED ON THE TOP OF THE BUILDING WHICH THEY DID RECEIVE HISTORIC VARIANCES. THAT IS A PRIMARY BUILDING WALL BECAUSE IT DOES FACE 3RD STREET NORTH. THE APPLICANTS SAID WHEN THE J.P. MORGAN SIGN GOES UP, THE CALABRIO SIGN COMES DOWN. [8:42] Hilary Dvorak: CHALLENGES DO NOT EXIST IN COMPLIANT WITH THE ORDINANCES BECAUSE OF CIRCUMSTANCES UNIQUE TO THE PROPERTY. THIS SITE HAS FRONTAGE -- OR THIS BUILDING I SHOULD SAY, THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE BUILDING ITSELF HAS FRONTAGE ON TWO STREETS, 5th AVENUE NORTH AND NORTH 3RD STREET. THE PROPOSED SIGN COULD BE PLACED ON TWO ELEVATIONS. [9:12] Hilary Dvorak: THERE IS A WALL SIGN LOCATED NEAR THE TOP OF THE BUILDING FACING 3RD STREET WHICH WILL BE REMOVED. ADDITIONAL SIGNAGE COULD BE ADDED TO EITHER THAT BUILDING WALL. I'M SORRY. THEY COULD ADD SIGNAGE TO EITHER PRIMARY BUILDING WALL AS NEITHER ARE EXCEEDING THEIR SIGN ALLOWANCES. SO WE ARE NOT RECOMMENDING APPROVAL OF THE VARIANCE. THE APPLICANT IS NOT PROPOSING TO USE THE PROPERTY IN AN UNREASONABLE MANNER TO KEEP THE ORDINANCE OR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. [9:58] Hilary Dvorak: PRIMARILY RESIDENTIAL IN NATURE. MAJORITY OF THE BUILDINGS IN THE AREA ARE BETWEEN FOUR AND SIX STORIES IN HEIGHT. GIVEN THE HEIGHT OF THIS SUBJECT BUILDING AND THE SURROUNDING BUILDINGS, THE PROPOSED SIGN WOULD BE VISIBLE TO A LARGE NUMBER OF RESIDENTS. WHILE THERE ARE SIGNS ALONG WASHINGTON AVENUE THAT THOSE RESIDENTS CAN SEE, ONE WOULD NOT EXPECT TO SEE A -- IT IS A LAYERING EFFECTIVE SIGNAGE IF WE WERE TO ALLOW THIS SIGN TO BE HERE. [10:45] Hilary Dvorak: GRANTING OF THE VARIANCE COULD ALTER THE CHARACTER OR ENJOYMENT OF OTHER PROPERTY IN THE AREA. THE AREA NORTH OF WASHINGTON IS LOCATED IN THE SAINT ANTHONY FALLS HISTORIC DISTRICT. THE PROPOSED SIGN WOULD BE VISIBLE TO A LARGE NUMBER OF PROPERTIES IN THE HISTORIC DISTRICT. I DID JUST FOR THE HECK OF IT PUT MYSELF IN BOOM ISLAND PARK. THAT IS HOW ONE WOULD SEE THE SIGN. FOR THOSE REASONS WE ARE RECOMMENDING DENIAL, AND I WILL STAND FOR ANY QUESTIONS. [10:45] Chris Meyer: COMMISSIONERS, ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS? COMMISSIONER THOMPSON. [11:06] Commissioner Thompson: CAN I JUST TEASE OUT, I WAS WRITING A NOTE TO MYSELF TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE. SO THE VARIANCE WOULD ALLOW THAT WALL. AND YOU'RE SAYING NO GOOD. BUT THE CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT WOULD ALLOW THE SIGN ITSELF. BUT AT A DIFFERENT WALL? I'M JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND. [11:28] Hilary Dvorak: WOULD ALLOW THE SIGN TO BE -- EXCUSE ME. WOULD ALLOW IT TO BE ABOVE 48 FEET. BECAUSE THE ZONING DISTRICT, THE MAXIMUM HEIGHT FROM GRADE TO THE TOP OF THE SIGN IS 48. THEY'RE ASKING TO GO TO 236. [11:28] Commissioner Thompson: GOT IT. [11:50] Hilary Dvorak: WE DID SUPPORT A BUILDING, A SIGN ON A BUILDING AT THE SITE ON THE OPPOSITE SITE. ON THE PRIMARY BUILDING WALL FACING NORTH 3RD. WE HAVE SUPPORTED A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO PUT A SIGN HERE. BUT WE ARE NOT SUPPORTING -- I MEAN, WE'RE SUPPORTING THE CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT BECAUSE THERE ARE TWO PRIMARY STREETS I COULD PUT IT ON. [11:50] Commissioner Thompson: JUST NOT ON THAT WALL. THANK YOU. I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY. THANK YOU SO MUCH. [11:50] Hilary Dvorak: YUP. THANK YOU. [12:10] Chris Meyer: COMMISSIONER JONES. [12:10] Commissioner Jones: SO THE PROPOSED WALL SIGN THAT IT GOES ON WOULD EITHER GO ON THE 5th AVENUE SIDE OR THE 3RD. [12:10] Hilary Dvorak: THE PROPOSAL IS TO PUT IT ON THE NON-PRIMARY WALL SIDE WHICH FACES NORTH WASHINGTON. THIS IS THE SELF-SERVICE STORAGE BUILDING LOCATED BETWEEN THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE BUILDING AND WASHINGTON. THIS IS WHERE THEY WOULD PUT THAT -- THIS IS WHERE THEY'RE PROPOSING THE SIGN. WE ARE SAYING THAT YOU COULD PUT IT ON 5th AVENUE. [12:33] Commissioner Jones: BUT NOT FACING WASHINGTON. BUT EITHER OF THE OTHER TWO. [12:33] Hilary Dvorak: THAT IS OUR DIRECTION. YES. [12:33] Chris Meyer: ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FROM COMMISSIONERS? COMMISSIONER BAXLEY. [13:00] Commissioner Baxley: THANK YOU, HILARY. IS THERE ANY -- THIS NEIGHBORHOOD IS PRETTY ELECTIC. THERE'S SIGNS EVERYWHERE ON NON-PRIMARY. HAS THERE BEEN ANY RECENT APPLICATIONS OR VARIANCES IN THIS AREA THAT YOU'RE AWARE OF? TARGET FIELD, THAT HAD TO BE AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION. [13:00] Hilary Dvorak: YES. YOU GUYS JUST REVIEW SIGNS NORTH OF GREEN, SO A COUPLE OF BLOCKS AWAY. SO WE'VE HAD THOSE SIGNS. I AM TRYING TO THINK OF OTHER SPECIFIC -- [13:29] Commissioner Baxley: CLEAR NIGHT HAS ONE ON PARALLEL. IT'S ABOVE THE HARDWARE BUILDING. THERE'S A BIG PAINTED SIGN ON THE NON-PRIMARY FACADE THERE TOO. [13:55] Hilary Dvorak: THE APPLICANT AND I DISCUSSED MANY SIGNS THAT STOOD OUT IN THE WORLD TODAY. SOME OF THEM WERE PUT UP ILLEGALLY. SOME HAVE THEM HAVE BEEN THERE FOR OVER 100 YEARS. THERE'S A STORY FOR EVERY SIGN. WE COULD, YOU KNOW, IF THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT SPECIFIC ONES, WE CAN SEE IF THOSE HAVE PERMITS. I CAN TELL YOU SOME OF THESE HAVE GONE THROUGH HVC. SOME HAVE GONE THROUGH PLANNING COMMISSION. YES, YOU DO SEE SIGNAGE EVERYWHERE. [13:55] Chris Meyer: THAT PROMPTS A QUESTION FOR ME. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY PUT UP THE SIGNS ILLEGALLY? WE HAVE IDENTIFIED ONES THAT'S THE CASE? [14:14] Hilary Dvorak: I'M NOT SAYING ON THIS BUILDING. I'M SAYING IN GENERAL. WE WOULD CALL IT OUT TO OUR ENFORCEMENT IF WE HAD SIGNAGE THAT WEREN'T THERE -- OR THAT WASN'T PUT UP PROPERLY. [14:14] Chris Meyer: OKAY. GOOD. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? ALL RIGHT. NOT SEEING ANY, SO I'LL OPEN PUBLIC HEARING. AND WE'LL JUST READ A NOTE. WAS ANYONE HERE FOR THE PUBLIC HEARING? [14:29] Hilary Dvorak: YES. THE APPLICANTS ARE HERE. [14:29] Chris Meyer: OKAY. AND JUST GOING TO READ A QUICK NOTE. THAT WE BROADCAST THESE MEETINGS LIVE TO ENABLE GREATER PUBLIC PARTICIPATION. SO WE ASK YOU TO SPEAK CLEARLY INTO THE MICROPHONE AND SPEAK SLOWLY ENOUGH SO THAT THE CAPTIONERS CAN CAPTURE EVERYTHING THEY'RE HEARING. WE'LL INVITE THE APPLICANTS FIRST. IF YOU WANT TO COME UP AND INTRODUCE YOURSELVES. [15:04] Kiersten Shilling: HI THERE. KIERSTEN SHILLING. I AM WITH JLL, THE PROPERTY MANAGER FOR THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE. [15:20] Trevor: AND I AM THE PROJECT MANAGER FOR THE INSTALLATION OF THE SIGNAGE FOR SDDI SIGNS. [15:20] Kiersten Shilling: SO I'M HERE ON BEHALF OF OUR TENANT J.P. MORGAN WHO IS REQUESTING THE SIGN TO BE PUT ON THAT NON-PRIMARY BUILDING WALL. SO AS YOU'LL SEE, AND AS HILARY NOTED, THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE BUILDING IS PART OF ONE PARCEL OF THE 411 WASHINGTON BUILDING. THEY DO SHARE THE SAME PARCEL, WHICH MEANS THEY DO SHARE THE FRONTAGE OF WASHINGTON AVENUE. THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE BUILDING IS MADE UP OF SIX STORIES OF PARKING RAMP AND SEVEN STORIES OF OFFICE. THE BUILDING CURRENTLY IS 66% LEASED IN THE OFFICE WITH 75,000 SQUARE FEET LEFT TO LEASE. [16:27] Kiersten Shilling: WHY SIGNAGE FACING WASHINGTON AVENUE? OUR TENANT J.P. MORGAN SEES THIS AS A DIRECTIONAL FOR THEIR CLIENTS THAT WILL BE PARKING IN OUR EXECUTIVE PARKING AREA. TO GET TO OUR EXECUTIVE PARKING AREA, YOU DO HAVE TO GO IN THAT ALLEY BETWEEN THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE BUILDING AND THE 411 BUILDING. BECAUSE OF THAT, WE DO SEE THE SIGNAGE ON THIS BUILDING AS DIRECTIONAL. IT IS ALSO GREAT EXPOSURE ON WASHINGTON AVENUE. [16:58] Trevor: SO YEAH, WE'RE GOING TO GO OVER SOME OF THE SAME STUFF HILARY WENT THROUGH. BUT YEAH, HERE'S ANOTHER VIEW OF THE RENDERING OF THE PROPOSED SIGNAGE. PRETTY STANDARD MATERIALS HERE. ALUMINUM, ACRYLIC, WHITE ACRYLIC FACES. AGAIN, THE SIGNAGE WILL BE MOUNTED TO A RACEWAY THAT WOULD BE PAINTED TO MATCH THE BRICK OF THE BUILDING. [17:44] Trevor: THE TOTAL SQUARE FOOTAGE OF THIS SIGN WOULD BE 59.5 SQUARE FEET. THE ILLUMINATION TYPE WILL JUST BE YOUR STANDARD SIGNAGE ILLUMINATION. NOT OVERLY ILLUMINATED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. HERE'S AN ADDITIONAL VIEW OF THE PROPOSED LOCATION FOR THE SIGNAGE HEADING DOWN SOUTHEAST WASHINGTON AVENUE. YOU'LL SEE THE RED LINE UP AT THE TOP OF THE BUILDING. [18:02] Trevor: AND HERE IS THAT SCALED VIEW OF THE SIGNAGE AS WELL. SO YOU CAN SEE HERE BEING THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE IS A FAIRLY LARGE BUILDING, THE SIGN ITSELF IS NOT GOING TO TAKE UP MUCH SPACE. IT WOULD ACCOUNT FOR LESS THAN 1% OF THE WALL AREA. THE BOTTOM LEFT HERE ON THE WHOLE WALL SECTION I POINTED OUT THE PARKING ENTRANCE. WHICH AGAIN THIS IS GOING TO BE WHERE J.P. MORGAN AND THEIR PUBLIC CLIENTS WILL ACCESS PARKING FOR THE BUILDING. [18:57] Trevor: SO I BROUGHT WITH ME A CUTOUT OF THE J FOR THE SIGNAGE, WHICH WOULD BE 29 INCHES TALL. AND HERE, YOU'LL SEE A PICTURE I TOOK TODAY. THIS IS FROM 110 YARDS AWAY. AND THE CLOSEST RESIDENTIAL BUILDING TO THE SIGN IS 160 YARDS. SO AGAIN, WE'RE ONLY SEEKING THE VARIANCE FOR THE PLACING ON A NON-PRIMARY BUILDING WALL. THE SIGN WOULD BE WELL WITHIN REGULATED SIZING REGULATIONS. [19:38] Trevor: AGAIN, I WANT TO POINT OUT HERE THAT J.P. MORGAN AND THEIR PUBLIC CLIENTS WILL ACCESS THE PARKING TO THE BUILDING. IN THAT PARKING RAMP WITHIN THE ALLEYWAY BETWEEN 411 WASHINGTON AND THE STEELMAN EXCHANGE. YEAH, THE SIGN WILL BE WELL WITHIN THOSE SIZING REGULATIONS WITH THE CUP BEING NEEDED. THIS WALL WOULD ALLOW FOR 300 SQUARE FEET OF SIGNAGE. AGAIN, OUR SIGN IS ONLY 59.5 SQUARE FEET. SO IT WOULD ONLY BE ACCOUNTING FOR 20% OF THAT OVERALL REGULATED AMOUNT OF SIGNAGE. [20:25] Trevor: THE CUP HAS BEEN RECOMMENDED FOR APPROVAL, AS HILARY STATED. SO MET ALL FINDINGS FOR THE CUP. JUST SOME NOTES, THE SIGN WOULD NOT BE INJURIOUS. IT WOULD PROMOTE AN ATTRACTIVE ENVIRONMENT BY MINIMIZING VISUAL CLUTTER AND CONFUSION CAUSED BY A PROLIFERATION OF SIGNAGE. AND IT WOULD NOT LEAD TO SIGN CLUTTER. AGAIN, THIS WOULD BE THE ONLY SIGN PLACED ON THIS WALL ALLOWING UP TO 300 SQUARE FEET PER THE CUP. IF THE VARIANCE IS NOT APPROVED, AS DISCUSSED, THE ALTERNATIVE WOULD BE TO PLACE THE SIGN ON THE 5th AVENUE SIDE OF THE BUILDING. AS DISCUSSED ALREADY, THERE'S THREE SIGNS MOUNTED TO THIS WALL TOTALING 82.5 SQUARE FEET. SO WE FEEL ADDING ADDITIONAL SIGNAGE ON THIS WALL COULD LEAD TO SIGN CLUTTER. [21:03] Kiersten Shilling: SOME OTHER SIGNS IN THE AREA THAT ARE ON NON-PRIMARY WALLS. THE DUFFY LOFT SIGNAGE, YOU CAN SEE FROM WASHINGTON AVENUE, IT'S NOT ON A PRIMARY WALL. THE DÉJÀ VU SIGNAGE, YOU CAN SEE THAT ON WASHINGTON AVENUE, BUT THAT IS NOT ON A PRIMARY WALL WHICH WOULD BE FACING WASHINGTON AVENUE. AND THEN T3 AS WELL HAS SIGNAGE NOT FACING STREET OR PARKING. [21:50] Kiersten Shilling: OTHER THINGS TO NOTE IS THAT, YOU GUYS, I DID BRING OUR LETTER FROM THE NORTH LOOP ASSOCIATION. THEY ARE IN FAVOR OF PLACING THE SIGN ON THE NON-PRIMARY BUILDING WALL. SO WE DO HAVE THEIR APPROVAL. AND THEN ONE OTHER THING TO NOTE AS I MENTIONED, WE DO HAVE 75,000 SQUARE FEET LEFT TO LEASE. SO THAT WILL REQUIRE ANOTHER SIGN OUR BUILDING. AS TREVOR MENTIONED, PLACING THIS J.P. MORGAN SIGN OTHER THE 5th AVENUE SIDE WOULD CAUSE CLUTTER, AND AS TENANTS COME IN, EVEN MORE. SO ANY QUESTIONS WE CAN ANSWER? [22:08] Chris Meyer: COMMISSIONERS, QUESTION FOR THE APPLICANT? COMMISSIONER THOMPSON. [22:24] Commissioner Thompson: THANK YOU. I'M GOING TO GUESS THE ANSWER IS NO, BUT DO YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE THE PICTURE OF THE WALL WITH THE SIGNS THAT ARE ALREADY ON IT OR NO? [22:24] Kiersten Shilling: I DID NOT BRING THAT WITH ME. [22:24] Commissioner Thompson: IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL. I WAS CURIOUS WHAT THE CLUTTER WOULD LOOK LIKE. I ALSO WAS JUST WONDERING, YOU SAID 66% OF YOUR BUILDING IS LEASED. IS THAT CORRECT? HOW MUCH OF YOUR BUILDING IS LEASED BY J.P. MORGAN? [22:40] Kiersten Shilling: YUP. SO THEY'LL BE TAKING 30,000 SQUARE FEET. AND THE BUILDING ITSELF IS 220,000 SQUARE FEET. [22:56] Commissioner Thompson: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THERE WAS ONE MORE QUESTION I WAS GOING TO ASK AND NOW I CAN'T FIND IT IN MY SCRIBBLES. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I JUST WON'T ASK IT. [22:56] Chris Meyer: COMMISSIONER SKJEFTE. [22:56] Commissioner Skjefte: ONE OF THE QUESTIONS I HAD, ONE OF THE LETTERS FROM THE RESIDENTS WAS HOW REFLECTIVE THE SIGN MAY BE. COULD YOU SPEAK TO ITS REFLECTIVENESS AND HOW THAT MAY IMPACT. [23:14] Trevor: YEAH. THAT'S KIND OF -- I MEAN, IT'S JUST GOING TO BE STANDARD ILLUMINATION TYPE. JUST TYPICAL SIGNAGE. WHITE LEDs. I DON'T HAVE THE AMOUNT OF LUMENS THIS WOULD HAVE OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. I MEAN, AGAIN, YOU CAN SEE HERE LIKE WITH THIS LETTER UP ON THE TOP OF 13-STORY BUILDING. I MEAN, IT GETS PRETTY THIN DOWN THERE EVEN. AND THE PICTURE I TOOK AND PUT ON THE SLIDE, YEAH, I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO CAUSE ANY, YOU KNOW, EXCESSIVE BRIGHTNESS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN SOMEONE'S WINDOW. [23:52] Kiersten Shilling: YEAH, TO ADD TO THAT AS WELL, AS HILARY MENTIONED, THE APARTMENTS ARE FOUR TO SIX STORIES TALL. OUR BUILDING IS SIX STORIES TALL. REALLY THE ODDS OF THAT GOING INTO SOMEBODY'S APARTMENT IS SLIM. [24:09] Commissioner Skjefte: TO CLARIFY, MY QUESTION WAS THE REFLECTION OF THE SIGN AND HOW IT BEAMS BACK INTO THE HOMES THAT IT MAY IMPACT. [24:25] Trevor: YEAH. I GUESS, I'M SORRY, I'M HAVING A TOUGH TIME UNDERSTANDING LIKE REFLECTIVENESS. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AN AVERAGE DAY WHEN THE SUN BEAMS INTO THEIR APARTMENT? I'M NOT SURE. [24:42] Commissioner Skjefte: HOW REFLECTIVE IS THE SIGN GOING TO BE WHEN THE SUN IS BEAMING ON IT AND THEN IT'S REFLECTING SUN AND SHINING LIGHT INTO THE HOMES. [24:42] Shaun Sowder: MY NAME IS SHAUN SOWDER, AND I'M THE OWNER OF SDDI. THE LETTERS THAT WILL GO UP THERE, THEY'LL HAVE MORE OF A MATTE TYPE FINISH. I ASSUME THE WINDOWS WOULD BE MORE REFLECTIVE THAN THE LETTERS. PLUS THE STROKE WIDTH OF THE LETTERS ARE PRETTY THIN. J.P. MORGAN'S FONT IS A REALLY THIN FONT. AND THAT J AND THE P ARE THE BIGGEST LETTERS. THE OTHERS ARE A LOT SMALLER. [25:28] Shaun Sowder: SO THEIR SURFACE AREA IS GOING TO BE EVEN LESS. SO YOU DON'T HAVE A BIG WINDOW TO REFLECT SOMETHING ACROSS THE STREET. LET'S SAY THEY WERE CLOSER. LET'S SAY THEY WERE 50 YARDS AWAY, I THINK THE WINDOWS WOULD BE WORSE THAN THE SIGN, QUITE HONESTLY, FROM WHEN IT'S OFF. YOU KNOW. IF THEY WERE 50, YOU KNOW, YARDS AWAY, I WOULD SAY YEAH, THEY'RE GOING TO SEE THAT LIGHT COMING FROM THAT SIGN. BUT THEY ARE 160 FEET OR YARDS AWAY. [26:14] Shaun Sowder: SO THEY'RE PRETTY FAR AWAY. THE STROKE WIDTH, IT'S GOING TO BE MORE OF A BLUR ON THE BUILDING FROM THAT DISTANCE THAN ANYTHING ELSE. BECAUSE OF THE STROKE WIDTH OF LETTERS. IT'S KIND OF UNIQUE TO WHAT THEY DO. BUT A LOT OF COMPANIES HAVE THESE REAL THIN FONTS TODAY. IF THIS WAS LIKE A HELVETICA OR SOMETHING REALLY THICK, THEN IT PROBABLY WOULD BE MORE VISIBLE FROM THAT DISTANCE. BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE. DOES THAT HELP? GREAT. [26:37] Chris Meyer: COMMISSIONER JONES. [26:37] Commissioner Jones: I HAD A QUESTION FOR HILARY. CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE PRIMARY, NON-PRIMARY SORT OF BEHIND THE ZONING CODE. LIKE WHAT'S THE FUNCTION AND THE PURPOSE OF THAT. AND ALSO, AGAIN, BECAUSE THERE'S A BUILDING SEPARATING THIS BUILDING FROM WASHINGTON IT MAKES IT CONSIDERED NON-PRIMARY. OKAY. THANK YOU. [27:33] Hilary Dvorak: YES. I MEAN, FOR ALL THOSE BUSINESSES TAKE LYNDALE OR NICOLLET, IT'S TO REALLY PROTECT THE RESIDENTS WHO LIVE AROUND THE SITE ITSELF. SO TO MINIMIZE THE AMOUNT OF SIGN CLUTTER THAT WE HAVE ON BUILDING WALLS. BUT I THINK THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF KEEPING IT ON THE STREET FACING SIDE IS TO MINIMIZE ITS IMPACTS ON SURROUNDING NEIGHBORS. REGARDLESS OF THE LOCATION. [27:33] Commissioner Baxley: I JUST HAVE A QUICK FOLLOW UP WITH HILARY. SO THE NUANCE AROUND THE FACT THAT THIS IS A BUILDING THAT HAS A FRONTAGE ON WASHINGTON. IT'S CONNECTED WITH THE SKYWAY. HOW DO YOU GUYS THINK ABOUT IT'S STILL A PRIMARY FACADE BECAUSE OF THE MASSING OR IS IT BECAUSE IT'S SET BACK FROM WASHINGTON? JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU GUYS ARE READING THAT, PLEASE. [28:04] Hilary Dvorak: YEAH. I MEAN, YES. THIS IS THE PRIMARY ELEVATION. BUT THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE BUILDINGS. HAVING A SKYWAY DOESN'T MAKE IT ONE BUILDING. THIS BUILDING DOES NOT HAVE FRONTAGE UP ON WASHINGTON. IT'S FRONT PROPERTY LINE IS NOT WASHINGTON. IT WOULD BE JUST LIKE SAYING YOU CAN'T PUT A SIGN FOR THE 411 BUILDING ON THE FRONT OF THIS BUILDING. LIKE THAT WOULD BE -- I GUESS THAT'S SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT. THAT WOULD BE OFF PREMISE ADVERTISING. THIS IS WHY WE PUT SIGNS ON THE FRONTS OF BUILDINGS AROUND STREET FACING SIDES SO YOU KNOW. [28:30] Commissioner Baxley: THANKS FOR THE CLARIFICATION. APPRECIATE THAT. AND THEN ONE FOLLOW UP FOR THE CLIENT. SO IF YOU DON'T PUT THE SIGN ON THIS FACE, IT WILL END UP GOING ON THE 5th AVENUE SIDE OF THE BUILDING? [28:55] Kiersten Shilling: YES. IT WILL GO ON THE 5th AVENUE SIDE. WE'VE HAVE THE CONVERSATION WITH J.P. MORGAN AND THAT'S THE ONLY OTHER SIGN THAT THEY'RE WILLING TO MOVE TO. [28:55] Chris Meyer: I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION FOR THE APPLICANT. BUT FIRST, HILARY, IF YOU CAN FIND A PHOTO OF WHAT COMMISSIONER THOMPSON WAS ASKING TO SEE THE CLUTTER OF IT, THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL. BUT FIRST FOR THE APPLICANT, WHILE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR THAT, IF YOU CAN. SO IN ORDER TO APPROVE A VARIANCE, IT WOULD NEED TO FIND A PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY. SO WHAT IS THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY THAT YOU'RE PROPOSING? [29:34] Kiersten Shilling: DIRECTIONAL. J.P. MORGAN HAS HIGH PROFILE CLIENTS COMING IN. AND THEY ARE GOING TO ACCESS PARKING THROUGH OUR EXECUTIVE PARKING LEVEL, WHICH IS OUR PRIVATE PARKING. ONLY ACCESSIBLE IN THAT ALLEY. SO HAVING THAT SIGN ON THAT WALL WILL LET THEM KNOW THIS IS THE RIGHT BUILDING, TURN HERE. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO TURN BEFORE YOU GET TO THE BUILDING. [29:34] Chris Meyer: OKAY. THANK YOU. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR THE APPLICANT? COMMISSIONER CONLEY. [30:16] Commissioner Conley: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. AND JUST TO ADD ON TO THAT, THOUGH, PARKING INSTRUCTIONS AND HOW TO ACCESS THE EXECUTIVE LEVEL PARKING RAMP FOR THE HIGH PROFILE CLIENTS THAT ARE COMING IN COULDN'T BE SOMETHING THAT'S SHARED WITH THEM? [30:16] Kiersten Shilling: SURE. AND WE DO INTEND TO SHARE THAT WITH THEM. HOWEVER, I'M SURE YOU'VE DONE IT WHEN YOU'RE DRIVING, IT'S HARD TO DRIVE AND LOOK AT WHERE I'M GOING ON THE DIRECTION. HAVING THAT BUILDING JUST RIGHT THERE, AND THAT SIGN JUST STARING AT YOU IS MUCH EASIER I WOULD SAY. [30:35] Commissioner Conley: CERTAINLY. AND THANK YOU FOR THAT. I WOULD JUST ADD THAT THE ZONING CODE IS VERY CLEAR. I THINK WITH OTHER OPTIONS TO PUT THE SIGN, THAT'S WHAT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED. I WAS ALSO GOING TO ASK ABOUT WHAT THE CURRENT CLUTTER LOOKS LIKE. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HELPFUL TO AT LEAST GET A VISUAL. BUT WITHOUT THAT, I THINK THAT IT'S HARD FOR ME TO SEE THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY GIVEN THAT THERE ARE OTHER -- AS HILARY LOOKS TO -- GIVEN THAT THERE ARE OTHER ALTERNATIVES TO PROVIDING PEOPLE WITH INFORMATION ON HOW TO PARK AS THEY ENTER YOUR FACILITY. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. [31:17] Chris Meyer: YOU GUYS ARE TESTING ME TODAY. AND I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S GOING TO BE -- YEAH. WE'RE GOING TO JUST PULL UP 411. I WOULD SAY THAT IN STAFF'S OPINION, THIS BUILDING DOES NOT HAVE SIGN CLUTTER. THERE'S VERY LITTLE SIGNAGE. THIS IS THE 411 BUILDING. HERE IS THE SELF-SERVICE STORAGE BUILDING. OH GOOD, THE BUILDING IS HERE. SOMETIMES WHEN YOU TURN THE CORNER, THE BUILDING IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION. [32:15] Hilary Dvorak: THIS IS AN OLD IMAGE. EXCUSE ME. THERE WAS A CANOPY. A METAL CANOPY. IT'S ACTUALLY IN YOUR PACKETS ON PAGE -- WELL I DON'T KNOW WHAT PAGE. IT'S THE LAST DRAWING IMAGE WHERE THERE IS A METAL AWNING THAT SAYS STEELMAN EXCHANGE IN THIS BAY. WHERE THE 241 SIGNAGE IS HERE, THERE IS NOW A WALL SIGN IN THIS LOCATION. THERE'S A TABLE IN THE PACKET THAT TELLS YOU HOW BIG THESE SIGNS ARE THAT RELATE TO THAT. [33:04] Hilary Dvorak: THAT IS A MULTI-TENANT SIGN. SO I'M ASSUMING THAT THERE WILL BE A J.P. MORGAN SIGN ON THAT. THERE IS A CALABRIO BUILDING HERE. THIS WAS PART OF THE ORIGINAL SIGNAGE THAT WENT IN. THERE IS A PROJECTING SIGN UP IN THIS LOCATION FOR A NEW TENANT. I THINK THE PARKING SIGN IS GONE NOW AND THERE'S A NEW PROJECTING SIGN HERE. SO THIS, YOU KNOW, FROM -- LET ME GO DOWN. AS LONG AS I DON'T PULL UP THE CONSTRUCTION SITE. [33:24] Chris Meyer: AND IT'S PAGE 21 IN YOUR PACKETS IF ANYONE WANTS TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE DRAWINGS. [33:40] Hilary Dvorak: THANK YOU. SO IN ALL HONESTY, THERE ISN'T A LOT OF SIGNAGE ON THIS BUILDING THAT LEADS TO SIGN CLUTTER. I THINK IT'S, YOU KNOW. IT IS UP TO YOU. SO THAT'S THE SITE. SOMEWHAT. YES, ON PAGE 21 SHOWS A CANOPY EXCHANGE. AND THE HISTORY THAT IS PUT IN TO THAT STAFF REPORT ON THE TABLE ON PAGE TWO OR THREE, GOES THROUGH THE HISTORY OF THE SITE AND SIGNAGE THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED AND WHAT NOT. SO THAT'S THE PROJECT. [34:05] Chris Meyer: OKAY. THANK YOU. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR THE APPLICANT BEFORE WE PROCEED WITH THE REST OF THE PUBLIC HEARING? COMMISSIONER SKJEFTE. [34:28] Commissioner Skjefte: SO TO BE CLEAR, THERE WILL BE ADDITIONAL WAY FINDING SIGNAGE AROUND OTHER AREAS OF THE BUILDING IN ADDITION TO THE ONE THAT IS AT THE TOP OF THE BUILDING, IS THAT CORRECT? [34:28] Kiersten Shilling: I BELIEVE YOU'RE REFERRING TO THE ONE THAT'S ON THE 5th AVENUE SIDE. [34:28] Commissioner Skjefte: I'M REFERRING TO ANY OTHER SIGNAGE OR WAY FINDING THAT IS ACCESSIBLE. [34:45] Kiersten Shilling: NOT ON THE EXTERIOR OF THE BUILDING. THERE WILL BE ON THE INTERIOR. [34:45] Chris Meyer: ALL RIGHT. NOT SEEING ANYONE ELSE. THANK YOU. YOU CAN GO AHEAD AND TESTIFY NEXT. [35:32] Shaun Sowder: MY NAME IS SHAUN SAUDER WITH SDDI. ONE OF THE THINGS WE DO WHEN WE DO WAY FINDING, YOU DIRECT AND IDENTIFY AND DIRECT AND IDENTIFY TO GET SOMEBODY TO SOME PLACE. AND HAVING THE SIGNAGE ON THE BUILDING AS PEOPLE GO DOWN WASHINGTON AND THEY SEE, OH, I KNOW WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, OUR PHONES AND EVERYTHING, BUT NOBODY IS SUPPOSED TO BE ON THEIR PHONE WHILE THEY'RE DRIVING. [36:04] Shaun Sowder: BUT WHEN YOU HAVE THESE ITEMS LIKE THE LETTERING ON THE BUILDING, THAT IS AN IDENTIFIER TO BRING SOMEBODY TO THAT AREA. AND YES, THERE WILL BE PROBABLY A SMALL DIRECTIONAL TO DIRECT CLIENTS DOWN THAT ALLEY, WHICH IS AS YOU CAN SEE FROM THAT PICTURE IS VERY TINY. SO THERE WILL BE ANOTHER IDENTIFIER THERE TO DIRECT THEM SOMEWHERE ELSE. [36:26] Shaun Sowder: SO WHEN WE DO HOSPITALS AND COLLEGES AND THINGS LIKE THAT, A LOT OF TIMES HAVING THOSE VISUALS FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, FRANTIC OR CONFUSED, THESE ARE SIMPLE WAYS TO GET THEM TO WHERE THEY ARE. SO THE ONE ON THE BUILDING IS GOING TO DIRECT THEM PROBABLY TO THE CORNER OF 5th AND WASHINGTON. OH, THAT'S THAT BUILDING OVER THERE. NOW THEY GO DOWN 5th AND WASHINGTON, AND THEY SAY OH, THERE'S J.P. MORGAN'S PARKING TO THE LEFT. THEY WOULD FOLLOW THAT DIRECTIONAL SIGN NOW TO THE PARKING RAMP. THEN THERE'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE SOME TYPE OF CALL BUTTON OR SOMETHING THERE TO SAY PUSH TO ENTER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO THAT'S KIND OF HOW WE THINK WHEN WE TRY TO GET PEOPLE TO BUILDINGS. [37:07] Commissioner Skjefte: THANK YOU FOR CLARIFYING THAT. I GUESS WHEN AN ARGUMENT WAS MADE EARLIER ABOUT THE VISIBILITY ON WASHINGTON FOR DIRECTIONAL WAY FINDING, AND THEN ALSO HEARING ADDITIONAL OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE POSSIBLE ON OTHER AREAS, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN HELPFUL TO HAVE THAT ARGUMENT BE MORE CLEAR AND ALL TOGETHER IN ONE MORE SUCCINCT ANYWAYS. SO I APPRECIATE YOUR BREAKING THAT DOWN. [37:07] Shaun Sowder: WE TRY TO DO OUR BEST. [37:27] Chris Meyer: WOULD ANYONE ELSE LIKE TO TESTIFY? ANY OTHER TESTIFIERS? SEEING NONE, I WILL CLOSE THE HEARING. COMMISSIONERS, COMMENTS, MOTIONS, QUESTIONS. COMMISSIONER THOMPSON. [38:14] Commissioner Thompson: YEAH, I'LL JUST STATE I GO BACK AND FORTH ON THIS. I'M NOT A FAN OF SIGNS IN GENERAL. ESPECIALLY ON A HISTORIC BUILDING. BUT I FEEL LIKE THIS IS I GUESS IN MY -- IT'S LIKE A 51-49 IN MY THINKING THAT THIS IS REASONABLE. ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE DEARTH OF CORE BUSINESSES THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IN THE CITY, WE'RE REALLY STRUGGLING WITH THAT. LET'S BE PLAIN. SO I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE AN AMENABLE SITUATION FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INVESTING IN OUR COMMUNITY. SO THAT'S MY TAKE. I'M GOING TO SUPPORT THE VARIANCE. THANKS. [38:14] Chris Meyer: OKAY. SO DID YOU WANT TO MAKE A MOTION TO THAT? IF SO, SO THERE'S THE CUP, WHICH THE STAFF IS RECOMMENDING. THERE'S THE VARIANCE WHICH STAFF IS NOT RECOMMENDING. IF WE WANT TO APPROVE THE VARIANCE, THEN WE'D HAVE TO HAVE A PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY FINDING. [38:34] Commissioner Thompson: I SUPPOSE I WAS JUST THINKING THAT IT WOULD BE A THING TO SEE IF OTHER PEOPLE HAD QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS. BUT I WOULD BE HAPPY TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD LATER ON. JUST THOUGHT I'D OPEN THAT UP TO THE GENERAL IDEA. [39:20] Chris Meyer: SURE. I'LL SAY WHERE I'M AT AND SEE WHERE OTHER COMMISSIONERS ARE AT AND SEE IF WE CAN FIND CONSENSUS TOWARD A MOTION. MY THOUGHTS, THE LETTER FROM THE NORTH LOOP NEIGHBORHOOD IS IMPACTFUL TO ME. I AGREE WITH THE LETTER THAT I FIND THE SIGN, THE BLACK AND WHITE, YOU KNOW, PRETTY UNDERSTATED. SIMPLE DESIGN TO BE VERY TASTEFUL. I LIKE IT. I'M VERY HAPPY TO SUPPORT THE CUP AS STAFF RECOMMENDED. [40:00] Chris Meyer: FOR THE VARIANCE, I'M NOT PERSUADED BY THE PARKING DIRECTION AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR THAT VARIANCE WHEN IT'S SO HIGH ON THE BUILDING. SO I WOULDN'T USE THAT AS A PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY. I COULD PLAUSIBLY BE PERSUADED BY THE ARGUMENT THAT COMPLYING WOULD LEAD TO CLUTTER ON THAT SIDE. WHICH IS WHAT THE NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION CITED AS THEIR REASONING. IF WE WERE TO FIND A PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY, THAT'S WHERE I WOULD GO WITH IT. BUT HAVING SEEN THE IMAGES THAT STAFF SHOWED, IT DIDN'T LOOK CLUTTERED TO ME. SO I'M NOT PERSUADED TO GO WITH THAT AS A PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY. SO WHERE I'M AT IS TO SUPPORT THE STAFF RECOMMENDATION TO APPROVE THE CUP AND THEN DENY THE VARIANCE. OTHER COMMISSIONERS. COMMISSIONER CONLEY. [40:17] Commissioner Conley: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. I THINK I'M THERE TOO. THIS PICTURE REALLY KIND OF SEALED IT FOR ME. IT DOESN'T LOOK CLUTTERED AT ALL. I THINK WITH SOME CREATIVE DESIGN FOR SIGNAGE ON THIS SIDE OF THE STREET, IT COULD EASILY, FOLKS COULD EASILY SEE THAT IT'S A J.P. MORGAN SPACE, AND COULD FIND THEIR WAY TO THEIR PARKING SPOT. WE ARE TASKED WITH FINDING THAT PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY TO -- FOR A VARIANCE. AND I'M JUST NOT SEEING THAT THERE IS ONE THAT EXISTS GIVEN THAT THERE ARE TWO OTHER SIDES TO THE BUILDING. AND THE SIDE THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW, I THINK JUST A LITTLE BIT OF CREATIVITY AND DESIGN COULD MAKE THAT -- MAKE A SIGN STAND OUT THERE. AND IN FACT, WORKING WITH CLIENTS TO GET THEM TURNING DOWN THE RIGHT STREET WOULD BE HELPFUL AS WELL. SO NO, WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE LOOKING DOWN WHILE THEY'RE DRIVING, BUT THAT INFORMATION AHEAD OF TIME IS CERTAINLY HELPFUL. I THINK FOR THIS ONE, FOR B, THE VARIANCE TO THE NON-PRIMARY WALL BUILDING, I THINK THAT WE SHOULD STICK WITH THE ZONING CODE ON THAT ONE. THANK YOU. [41:38] Commissioner Baxley: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIR. I'M CHIME IN WITH SOME THOUGHTS AS WELL AND ECHO WHAT COMMISSIONER CONLEY SAID. I DON'T THINK THE PLANNING COMMISSION'S ROLE HERE IS TO BE THE ARBITER OF WHERE SIGNS ARE OR ARE NOT ALLOWED. I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE ZONING CODE IS FOR. I'M ALSO NOT PERSUADED BY THE PRACTICAL DIFFICULTY THAT WAS PROVIDED. LIKE CHAIR MEYER SAID WE NEED TO HAVE FINDINGS IN ORDER TO APPROVE. I'M NOT SURE IF OTHERS HAVE THOUGHTS BUT I'M HAPPY TO MAKE A MOTION IF WE'RE READY. [41:38] Chris Meyer: ALL RIGHT. [42:03] Commissioner Baxley: I'LL MAKE A MOTION TO UPHOLD STAFF FINDINGS ON BOTH ITEM A AND B. I DON'T KNOW IF I DID THAT CORRECTLY. [42:03] Chris Meyer: THERE'S A MOTION. [42:25] Commissioner: SECOND. [42:25] Chris Meyer: ALL RIGHT. I'LL JUST ASK COMMISSIONER THOMPSON, IF YOU WANT TO DIVIDE THE MOTION, WE CAN. [42:25] Commissioner Thompson: I SENSE WHICH WAY THE WIND BLOWS. BUT THANK YOU. [43:03] Chris Meyer: ALL RIGHT. SO THERE'S BEEN A MOTION AND A SECOND TO APPROVE THE STAFF RECOMMENDATION, WHICH IS TO APPROVE THE CUP AND DENY THE VARIANCE. IS THERE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THAT MOTION? ALL RIGHT. COMMISSIONER SKJEFTE. SORRY. I JUST SAW YOURS. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. NOT SEEING ANY. SO I'LL ASK THE CLERK TO CALL THE ROLL ON THE MOTION. [43:03] Clerk: COMMISSIONER BAXLEY. [43:03] Commissioner Baxley: AYE. [43:03] Clerk: CAMPBELL IS ABSENT. CHOWDHURY IS ABSENT. CONLEY. [43:03] Commissioner Conley: AYE. [43:03] Clerk: GORDON. [43:03] Commissioner Gordon: AYE. [43:03] Clerk: JONES. [43:03] Commissioner Jones: AYE. [43:03] Clerk: SKJEFTE. [43:03] Commissioner Skjefte: AYE. [43:03] Clerk: THOMPSON. [43:19] Commissioner Thompson: AYE. [43:19] Clerk: WAGNER. [43:19] Commissioner Wagner: AYE. [43:19] Clerk: MEYER. [43:19] Chris Meyer: AYE. [43:19] Clerk: WE HAVE EIGHT AYES AND ZERO NAYS. [43:19] Chris Meyer: THAT MOTION IS ADOPTED. AND THAT CONCLUDES OUR BUSINESS FOR THE EVENING. BEFORE WE LEAVE, I WANT TO INTRODUCE OUR NEW COMMISSIONER, COMMISSIONER GORDON. WOULD YOU LIKE TO INTRODUCE YOURSELF? [43:36] Commissioner Michael Gordon: SURE. I'M MICHAEL GORDON, NICE TO MEET ALL OF YOU. FOR THOSE I HAVEN'T MET IN PERSON, I'D LIKE IT SAY HI AFTER THE MEETING. I LIVE IN SOUTH MINNEAPOLIS, CLOSE TO MATT'S BAR. THAT'S WHERE I'M AT. I'M AN ARCHITECT. I'VE BEEN WORKING IN THE FIELD FOR ABOUT 14, 15 YEARS. I STARTED MY OWN PRACTICE ABOUT A YEAR AGO. AND DO A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS. SO YEAH. THANKS A LOT. HAPPY TO BE HERE. AND LOOKING FORWARD TO WORKING WITH ALL OF YOU. [44:07] Chris Meyer: GREAT. WELCOME. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. OUR NEXT MEETING. WE WILL NOT HAVE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE. OUR NEXT PLANNING COMMISSION WILL BE MONDAY, FEBRUARY 24TH. AND I ALSO WANT TO ANNOUNCE THAT COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE AFTER THAT ON THE 27th, WE'RE GOING TO HOLD A LISTENING SESSION ABOUT THE INFORMATION THAT WE HAD IN THE ANNUAL REPORT. YOU KNOW, I COMMENTED ON THAT. LAST WEEK OR LAST MEETING. SO THE IDEA THAT I HAVE THERE IS JUST WANT TO HEAR FROM THE BUILDERS ABOUT WHAT IT IS THAT IS STOPPING THEM. KIMBERLY, YOU'RE LOOKING -- ALL RIGHT. IS THIS CORRECT THAT WE'RE PLANNING ON THAT? NO. OKAY. SORRY. I THOUGHT WE HAD THAT ON THE -- [45:07] Kimberly Holien (Staff): WE WERE NOT PLANNING ON HOLDING A LISTENING SESSION FOR THE PUBLIC AT THAT MEETING. [45:07] Chris Meyer: DO YOU JUST HAVE IT ON THE AGENDA? [45:07] Kimberly Holien (Staff): CORRECT. IT WOULD BE A DISCUSSION BASED ON YOUR REQUEST TO PRESENT SOME INFORMATION FROM STAFF. BUT IT IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A LISTENING SESSION. [45:24] Chris Meyer: OKAY. DO YOU HAVE -- IS THERE CONCERN ABOUT HAVING A LISTENING SESSION? [45:42] Kimberly Holien (Staff): I WILL SAY IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT THE PLANNING COMMISSION TYPICALLY DOES WITH COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE. I DO NOT THINK THE ROOM HAS SPACE FOR IT. WE DON'T HAVE ANOTHER ROOM AVAILABLE AT THAT TIME. LOGISTICALLY, YES, I THINK THERE ARE SOME CONCERNS ABOUT APPROACHING IT THAT WAY. [45:42] Chris Meyer: OKAY. LET ME SCRATCH THAT THEN. I THOUGHT WE HAD ESTABLISHED THAT BY EMAIL. I MAY HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD THAT. WE'LL HAVE THAT ISSUE ON THE DISCUSSION FOR THE 27th, AND MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE A LISTENING SESSION ABOUT IT. REGARDLESS, I'VE RECEIVED A LOT OF EMAILS AND CONTINUE TO INVITE OTHER BUILDERS TO GIVE ME FEEDBACK ABOUT THAT. ARE THERE ANY OTHER ANNOUNCEMENTS FROM STAFF OR COMMISSIONERS? [46:11] Kimberly Holien (Staff): ONE NOTE, WE WILL TAKE NOMINATIONS FOR OUR EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE POSITIONS AT OUR NEXT MEETING. THAT IS OUR PRESIDENT, VICE PRESIDENT, AND SECRETARY POSITIONS. THOSE ARE CURRENTLY FILLED BY COMMISSIONER MEYER AS PRESIDENT, COMMISSIONER CAMPBELL AS VICE PRESIDENT, AND COMMISSIONER BAXLEY AS SECRETARY. SO BRING THOSE NOMINATIONS, AND THEN WE VOTE AT THE FOLLOWING MEETING. [46:34] Chris Meyer: ALL RIGHT. WHAT WAS YOUR QUESTION, COMMISSIONER CONLEY? WE COULDN'T HEAR YOU. [46:34] Commissioner Conley: [OFF-MIC QUESTION] [46:50] Commissioner Conley: SORRY. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT FOR ANYONE HERE THAT HOLDS AN ELECTION CERTIFICATE, WE CANNOT SERVE AS EXECUTIVE OFFICERS. [46:50] Chris Meyer: THAT'S A GREAT -- SORRY. GO AHEAD, COMMISSIONER. [47:19] Kimberly Holien (Staff): I DON'T RECALL OFF HAND. I'LL HAVE TO REVIEW THE BYLAWS AND CHECK IN WITH CASEY CARL, THE CLERK AND TEAM. WE'LL FIND THE ANSWER SO WE CAN MOVE FORWARD APPROPRIATELY. THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THAT UP. [47:19] Chris Meyer: THERE ARE BYLAWS POSTED ONLINE. I'LL BE HONEST, MY BRAIN DOES NOT DO REAL GREAT HOLDING ON TO INFORMATION. SO IF SOMEBODY WOULD BE WILLING TO SEND ME AN EMAIL TO REMIND ME, I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT. ALL RIGHT. ANY OTHER ANNOUNCEMENTS OR COMMENTS FROM COMMISSIONERS? ALL RIGHT. WE ARE ADJOURNED.