Based on the audio content and the specific names called during the roll call and throughout the meeting, there is a discrepancy between your provided list and the transcript. The transcript is from a **North St. Paul** workshop where **Furlong** was Mayor and **Scott Stark** was City Manager. I have applied the speaker names as identified within the dialogue (Mayor Furlong, City Manager Stark, and Councilmembers Thorson, Peterson, Wang, and Cole). *** **[00:00] Mayor Furlong:** He’s—oh yeah, here. Go ahead and start the workshop meeting for the 3rd of June. If you want to take the roll? **[00:04] City Staff:** Councilmember Thorson? **[00:06] Councilmember Thorson:** Here. **[00:07] City Staff:** Councilmember Peterson? **[00:07] Councilmember Peterson:** Here. **[00:08] City Staff:** Councilmember Wang? **[00:09] Councilmember Wang:** Here. **[00:10] City Staff:** Councilmember Cole? **[00:11] Councilmember Cole:** Here. **[00:11] City Staff:** Mayor Furlong? **[00:12] Mayor Furlong:** Here. **[00:15] Councilmember Peterson:** Mr. President, motion to adopt the agenda. **[00:17] Mayor Furlong:** Some—your honor? **[00:18] Councilmember Peterson:** By Councilmember Peterson. **[00:19] Councilmember Wang:** Second. **[00:20] Mayor Furlong:** Seconded by Councilmember Wang. Any discussion? If not, all those in favor signify by saying aye. **[00:22] Council:** Aye. **[00:23] Mayor Furlong:** The agendas are adopted. We have one topic and that's the enclosures for establishments serving alcohol outdoors. I'll turn it over to City Manager Stark. **[00:30] City Manager Stark:** Thank you, Mayor Furlong and Councilmembers. So when I arrived at the city of North St. Paul, Max’s Diner was on the cusp of, you know, planning and hoping to open soon. They had come to me with a concern that the fencing requirements around outdoor patios seemed onerous to them. I read the requirements and based on my experience in other communities, it seemed a little bit onerous to me as well, but I didn't have a lot of experience in other communities. So I had asked Brandy Howe and the planning staff at WSB to take a look at what other communities recommend or require and then give us some thoughts and some options for moving forward. So I think with that, I would just pass it on to Brandy. Welcome, Brandy. **[01:10] Brandy Howe (Planning Consultant):** Thanks for the introduction. So, I had our planning assistant Jared Johnson help me do a little bit of research on behalf of Mr. Stark. Your existing ordinance basically states that if there is going to be an outdoor patio, the area must be enclosed by a six-foot-tall fence and it should have a gate with a lock. Based on the inquiry from Max’s Diner, we did the research of other communities. We looked at the City of Stillwater, City of Rosemount, Robbinsdale—those were the only ones—and then based on a conversation that I had with Mr. Stark yesterday, we also looked at White Bear Lake to see what their regulations were. They did not have any. In a follow-up conversation with Jared Johnson, there's not that many communities that he did the research upon that had regulations for this type of enclosure for outdoor seating. So we'll just kind of look at the ones that did. **[01:57] City Manager Stark:** Maybe I can just pause for one second. I think that the rationale for the enclosure—and were you going to cover that? **[02:00] Brandy Howe:** Go ahead. **[02:01] City Manager Stark:** The rationale for the enclosure is obviously it's a place where a patio, where typically alcohol would be served, and the thought is that you know you don't want to make it easy for somebody inside the patio that has an alcoholic beverage to just hand it to somebody outside the patio for consumption to an underage person or somebody that really isn't a patron. And so that's why the six-foot fence was enacted for that purpose. That's my understanding. **[02:30] Mayor Furlong:** Just seems odd to me that a six-foot fence would hinder people from passing something between a—go ahead. **[02:38] City Manager Stark:** One of the other reasons is when you apply for a liquor license, what you have to do is be able to delineate where that alcohol will be served. And so I know at times there's been discussion about, well, could I buy a beer and then just walk off and walk around with it? That isn't an option in Minnesota. And so whether it should be a six-foot fence or planters or something, patios have become more commonplace to serve—you want to be outside—how do you delineate it? And so this is part of that process. And so if there isn't a demarcation of sorts, if you will, it becomes hard to say, "Well, this is the premise, this right spot." I think things—what I saw once COVID hit, candidly—is things did loosen up a little bit on that. We saw a lot more, say, sidewalk service and things of that nature. That was during the emergency orders when we flexed a little bit on that. But I know that I've encountered the conversation on this point of, well, how much do you really need? Is it really an effort to stop the passing over of the beer? Is any of that going to stop this? Probably not. But it is an idea of—it demarcates the premise where alcohol can be served, and that's really the point of it. **[03:40] Brandy Howe:** Yep. And so Minnesota statute requires that the spaces be compact and contiguous, but there really isn't a whole lot else in terms of what the boundary needs to be, if any. So cities can impose further regulations, such as requiring a fence, what you have now. So we looked at Stillwater—and I've actually been up there recently in some of their situations—and they don't have any requirements for patio enclosures. They do have several patios with different types of enclosures: elevated patios, planter boxes, iron fencing with brick columns, wood fencing with gates. Here are some other examples: Robbinsdale, they require a three-foot fence. Rosemount, there's no fence requirement, but if they have one, it has to be wrought iron. So it's more of an aesthetic thing as opposed to keeping the alcohol confined. Options for you to consider are: basically, do you want to have any enclosure, and if you do, what kind? Maybe it's a buffer. You might want to limit height. If you do have an enclosure, you might want to consider whether or not you need a gate to keep people in and if it needs a lock. Then we could also add additional conditions that would give City Council some flexibility in terms of each individual applicant for a liquor license. Here are just some images for you to take a look at. There's the tall wrought iron fence that you could pass the beer through. A little bit more casual dining space—the shorter fence just basically demarcating the area. Planter boxes. A tall fence, just a different variety, but it doesn't appear to have any enclosure or a gate, rather. So that is the end of my presentation. **[04:36] City Manager Stark:** Yeah, and I would just add that we asked Police Chief Baebenroth if he had concerns. He wasn't able to attend tonight, but he said from a law enforcement perspective, we have not noticed a significant problem with customers purchasing alcoholic beverages and taking the beverages off the business premises or passing alcoholic beverages to non-customers outside of the business patio area. Public safety is not enhanced or reduced by having the six-foot fence requirement. However, maintaining some type of liquor establishment fence requirement is important to public safety because it provides a structure defining the alcoholic beverage serving area. Lowering the fence to three feet is advantageous to public safety because it would allow easier access for any officer or emergency responder to access an incident in the business or patio area. So those were his comments. **[05:30] Mayor Furlong:** So to me, it sounds like it's more of a delineation of—make it the area where drinking is allowed. I mean, that's, you know, I think last year when the bars did the temporary where they put up the little fencing or the little chains to make it an area that kind of ropes off an area where the drinking is allowed. And I don't see a six-foot-high fence deterring people from passing drinks through. So, do you know, does a six-foot-high fence come from anywhere, or is that just something the city— **[05:58] Brandy Howe:** I don't know, other than what I've traditionally seen is, at least in residential areas, six feet seems to be sort of the cap on what you'll allow for a fence in terms of height. I don't have any survey results, but I do see six feet as just kind of being a maximum height in a lot of areas. I guess I haven't seen it in terms of a required height—that was new to me from your code's perspective, that it required a six-foot fence. And again, I assume it was because of the idea of preventing the passability of the alcohol or something like that, but I'm not really sure it served as much of a deterrent in that respect. **[06:33] City Manager Stark:** And I did have a chance to talk to Phil [Baebenroth], and what he said was it's more of a demarcation from his standpoint. And candidly, from a law enforcement perspective, if you come in and see something, it's easier to address it if you don't have to deal with a six-foot fence if it's, you know, a little bit lower. My recollection is Phil supported actually having a lower fence. I hope I'm not misrepresenting that, but that's what it kind of sounded like. He supported a smaller fence, and that's what I've seen in other communities too. It's about de-marking the area. And then candidly, you know, some of it is up to the business to police that on their own. I mean, it is their liquor license. They know what happens if booze starts to leave the premise. They know what happens if booze is being passed to minors. You know, some of these codes are written at a point when that was a little bit more problematic. The underage service has gone way down, in my opinion, from where it used to be. **[07:19] Mayor Furlong:** So, I'm not sure—is that because you're older, or is that— **[07:23] City Manager Stark:** Could be. Yeah, fair. Fair. I just—everyone knows the penalties that are associated with it and the liability with it, and it's just not worth it. **[07:33] Councilmember Thorson:** Well, I think this is a good step forward. I mean, I would agree that I think our old ordinance is a little too restrictive. You know, I'm thinking about current patios. I know American Legion just spent quite a bit of money constructing a new beautiful patio and it has a higher fence, but I don't know if they were doing that based off of our code or if that's just what they wanted to do. But I mean, that clearly used to be just kind of like the front of their parking lot; now there's no question that that's their patio. The fact that the fence is higher—I mean, I don't really think it needs to be, but if that was their choice—and if they did that because it was our existing ordinance and they could have done a shorter fence like the examples that we have. I agree, I don't think that a wrought iron fence that you can easily reach through is preventing people sneaking alcohol through the gate. I don't think that was the intent. But there's Newman's patio, which basically is just a straight fence across, and I think in the past there were questions or issues about the beverages or beer being stored in their bar area and how it was locked up. That's probably more of a liquor ordinance deal, but I think it's more of a security issue for them. But the gate's locked and when during busy times they have some—like in the car show—there's usually someone there manning the door, checking IDs, or making sure people are leaving their drinks within that area and not walking out. I know there's other establishments in the past that have inquired about patios: VFW, Sidewinders, maybe even the Polar Lounge underneath that kind of—I don't know, it's not like an awning area, but that overhang—and I think in the past they've been told no. You know, some establishments maybe don't have the area like some of the other places do, but there's a small area. So I think if we can look at making it easier for these establishments to establish some sort of patio area that meets the state guidelines, I'm all supportive of it. **[09:50] Councilmember Peterson:** Yeah, um, I agree with Councilmember Thorson. I don't want them to go into debt trying to beautify their area. I mean, these are nice examples—I've seen them down in Rochester too, they're very nice. But I don't know if the establishments have that. I'm sure they can do something, but I hope it's within their means. That's all I have. Thanks. **[10:11] Brandy Howe:** Could I offer a suggestion on that line of thought? Those options that were part of the presentation were simply that you could include a requirement that states you need to have some sort of enclosure—you can do any variety of these. It could be a fence, even, but a smaller one. And I would imagine that the six-foot fence requirement now that you're discussing some of the existing fences in the community may have had to do with the fact that probably they're in the alley or off of an area that has that alley feel, as opposed to off of more of the Main Street where you would traditionally have a sidewalk cafe, and you certainly wouldn't want a six-foot fence in that environment. But I think if you're looking for more flexibility, we can find a way to build that into the code without making it too costly for the applicant. **[11:05] Mayor Furlong:** I think the important thing here is delineation, you know, making it a set patio area. And if they're consistent—or maybe not consistent—I was looking at some of these plantings. I mean, that looks nice, but I think we want to keep it—if the establishments were to use the patio area outside the establishments, I think it should be something that looks nice too for the downtown. Last year, we threw picnic tables and, I mean, we're trying to help the bars as fast as we could because of the pandemic, but now that's over with and they're not allowed to do that at this time because that was a temporary ordinance that we declared during the pandemic. So right now, I think we need to kind of set a standard for the downtown and I think the Planning Commission kind of looked at that. Maybe Councilmember Wang can touch on that? **[11:55] Councilmember Wang:** Sure. Yeah, I think Lisa Ricci has been looking into different options to just present as examples for businesses and to look at, you know, something that has higher grade—commercial grade, I should say—material. So, in the weather or just through use, they would be able to maintain their aesthetic and their function. So I believe that's the direction, but there's not any specifics on the design features; that's going to remain flexible. **[12:28] Councilmember Wang:** One thing I was thinking about too is we've had some discussion about this and the Planning Commission is taking a look at a solution called "parklets" or street cafes. The City of Minneapolis and many cities all over the country have this model, and it's basically businesses invest in expanding some sort of deck and it would go into a parking space. So it would provide opportunity for folks to still walk through if they're going through downtown, but there's a designated area for dining that you can delineate from the rest of the sidewalk. And I do believe some of their toolkits—they have those available—provide some safety guidelines as well about maybe putting up a concrete block here three feet outside of the area so it maintains its safety for pedestrians and diners. **[13:20] Mayor Furlong:** Brandy, do we have an example of the parklet? Was that part of your presentation? **[13:28] Brandy Howe:** It wasn't, but you know while you're discussing this, I know of some examples that exist. I could pull them up on Google Earth if we can do that, that'd be great. And you probably have some places that you could point me to as well. **[13:50] Mayor Furlong:** I’ve seen those on the east side of Saint Paul, I think it was on Arcade Avenue. It was sitting outside on a parking spot. **[14:02] Councilmember Wang:** Having some sort of enclosure versus maybe not having an enclosure—my thought is if a business is trying to expand their deck and we require a fence, whether it's six feet or three feet, it can be any materials. The likelihood that maybe a business would only be able to afford something like aluminum versus if it was just open—and it would save them a lot of money too. So I'm just kind of thinking about that trade-off versus having any fence versus just an open deck. **[14:35] Brandy Howe:** I just pulled up the two—here's an actual example I've walked by before. This is in Iowa City. So it's about a one block of their downtown. They don't have a ton—I mean, this is a community that is a college town with 30-some thousand students, so there's always an issue with parking, but they decided that this was an important priority to provide outdoor seating. And so that's just an example of what they look like. And then I pulled up Google images and they come in a lot of different varieties. Then Lisa has provided to the Planning Commission that kind of how-to guide from—you said it was Saint Paul or Minneapolis? **[15:15] Councilmember Wang:** Minneapolis. It was very thorough, very informational. We could provide that in the future. **[15:25] Brandy Howe:** Oh, here's another one that seems pretty typical. Something else to consider is the ordinance—if you decide to revise it, the regulations don't have to be quite as onerous within the ordinance itself. But the downtown design guidelines, which the Planning Commission intends to update in the near future, might be a place to add those aesthetic components. So the ordinance could be "you need to require something, you need to provide a demarcation of some sorts," but refer to this document for how to implement it. **[15:58] Councilmember Cole:** So we're looking at our ordinance right now and how it reads—it limits, I believe, the establishments down there right now in regards to allowing some sort of outdoor patio similar to what they had last year. I don't think they could do what they did last year according to this ordinance in terms of providing alcohol or just allowing outdoor seating. **[16:22] Brandy Howe:** I'm not as familiar with that topic and whether or not it's allowed; I'd have to verify that. But the existing ordinance in terms of the alcohol requirement is that you shall have a six-foot-tall fence if you want to have outdoor [service]. **[16:38] City Manager Stark:** And I think maybe what the Mayor is talking about is, you know, during COVID we allowed service areas in the public right-of-way, whereas I think this is contemplating it would be on a property owner's property. Now, whether we were lax—I'm assuming we were lax on the rules on the six-foot fence as well during COVID in that public right-of-way situation, knowing that it was intended to be temporary. **[17:01] Councilmember Cole:** Yeah, I think we just—we allowed them to go out onto the public right-of-way with very little restrictions in regards to temporary tables, tents, sun shelters may be erected. We were pretty relaxed in that, and I think that was common. So as we rewrite this ordinance, it sounds like we were looking at eliminating that six-foot-high fence and what does that look like? **[17:28] Brandy Howe:** I think, you know, Randy tried to present you with some options. There are some fence ranges in height or doing it in a different way with planter boxes. As Brandy said, there could be an opportunity to have some flexibility to say, "The important thing is the spirit and intent that you're delineating your area, and then here are two or three options for how you could do that." I do like the idea that there'd be the ordinance that would apply regardless of where you're at in the city, and then in the downtown district, there would be some extra requirements for some of the aesthetics over and above. I think that makes sense. **[17:55] City Manager Stark:** And it's my understanding that any license that would come forward for this sort of outdoor seating area would come to this body, and then you'd have the opportunity to give your input on their proposal. Is that correct? **[18:15] Brandy Howe:** I believe so, as part of the liquor license. **[18:22] City Manager Stark:** Can you say that again? **[18:25] Brandy Howe:** Oh, I was trying to explain that if any time anybody would want to come forward with such a request for an outdoor seating area where they would serve alcohol, they would first need to come to this body to get approval of that liquor license, and then that would be your opportunity to impose conditions or react to their proposal. **[18:30] City Manager Stark:** And use the current section that you've cited—is that in the zoning or is that in the liquor license? That is in the liquor license. So that is where we would handle it then, just as part of the liquor licensing. We should spell it out in the code, though, not do the case-by-case thing, just so that an applicant understands here's what's expected of you when you apply for a liquor license. **[18:45] Councilmember Thorson:** Yeah, it’s code section 117.1 B2. It’s in there. So like, if I’m just trying to think out loud here, an example would be like Rotties on the corner. They also do have somewhat of a back area that they possibly could do a patio or something, but on the front, it's kind of a larger expansive area of a sidewalk. Versus if you go down a little farther, like in front of Newman's, it's just more of a narrow sidewalk and they have their own patio area. But what Rotties was allowed to do was kind of put that temporary fencing up—it was just kind of some road cones with some plastic chains—but they could fit three or four tables in there. And so in that particular area—and I think that's kind of similar to what’s across the street with where Max’s Diner is going to be—it's a larger area. And so if they—is there a way we can write this code that says, you know, if you can come forward to the council and present an area that meets these qualifications, maybe strike out the height requirement and just highlight that it needs to be delineated? And in the case of like Rotties, where if they want to do something separate, like in the parking stall—they don't have parking stalls right in front of their establishment—so it wouldn't be contiguous in that sense because it's like six or seven feet away where there's the first angled parking. But if—I don't know how that—it's kind of a different can of worms, but at least if you can say, "If you're looking at doing something like this, you have to meet certain requirements," like one, you can't block whatever the standard height/width of the sidewalk is. **[19:55] Brandy Howe:** Sure, and I think that you're touching on some really good points. And I'm questioning if this is a separate, right—maybe it's a combination liquor license but also right-of-way permitting, perhaps? I'm not sure how you would go about authorizing somebody to put a table on the public right-of-way, and then the contiguous part—I'd like to get Soren’s opinion on that and whether or not during COVID, if some of these businesses that were putting patios out—if they are liquor serving establishments—how that has been functioning. **[20:30] Councilmember Thorson:** But if signs were put—let's say those first three stalls, I know it's public parking, but it's pretty common where you'll see "this parking is reserved for this establishment" or whatever—would that be kind of a workaround? If Rotties wanted to do one of those parklets and they met all the requirements and they want to use one or two stalls, and to make it contiguous you say, "These stalls are reserved for Rottie's parking only"? I mean, I don't know if that's— **[21:00] City Manager Stark:** Yeah, I think it's been touched on. There's two issues: one, the fence. I look at the fencing issue as expanding land that you already control, so your back area—and some may not be able to expand outdoors, they just may not have the land, right? So that's issue one. If you have the land, what are we going to require to call it "compact and contiguous"? The secondary discussion is do you want to allow businesses to expand their operations into publicly controlled and operated areas? And that's the policy discussion. Do you give up some parking stalls that are publicly controlled so the business can operate in there? And that is—Scott, you touched on it—those parklets or whatever we're calling them. I've worked on that issue and it is—"is it compact and contiguous" is the issue. It's definitely compact. And so we can look into that. But if there's direction to—I mean, I think one issue is the fence; I seem to hear some agreement on that issue. The "how do we expand operations into a public area" is something we have to look at because if it's just a temporary thing, is it a liquor license amendment? And so we just want to make sure if we're in support of it, just the process, so we don't over-encumber it. But you are allowing one entity to use a public area at that point for a business consideration, and it's just something to consider. **[22:12] Brandy Howe:** And the other thing to consider when allowing them to use the public right-of-way—and it touches on the contiguous and if that causes problems—is that the areas, the sidewalks, still need to be ADA accessible as well. And if I may, the toolkit from Minneapolis, they have the dimensions for ADA as well to accommodate ADA, and then just also different things to consider in your design like drainage from the site or from the parking spot. So there are some things that have been done that might enhance some of these spaces and still provide some criteria. **[22:38] Mayor Furlong:** Are these parklets—are they permanent then, or are they— **[22:42] Brandy Howe:** They're temporary. **[22:45] City Manager Stark:** Temporary. So they move them, or they're not conducive to plowing snow? No. So where do they go? That's up to the business. I—the few that I've seen seem to be very movable, if you will. It's usually just building with some 2x4s and wood, and I've seen them just loaded up on trucks and moved. But they are meant to be seasonal. Now, we all have instances where I know that some businesses were allowed to bring in the white tents and the heaters during the winter, and all of that's covered. That was meant to be a stopgap. **[23:15] Mayor Furlong:** The bubbles? **[23:17] City Manager Stark:** Yeah, the igloos. Right. **[23:18] Councilmember Thorson:** So what if—let's say, obviously we're mindful of the temporary COVID stuff—but on Friday nights during the car show, it's enough of a standalone event on its own and the road is shut down. So what if some of these establishments wanted, just on Friday nights, to set up temporary seating like they did? Does that fall under the car show category, or does it still need an area? I mean, the idea of serving beer and being able to just walk the streets—that liquor license isn't going to allow that because you have to consume it in that compact and contiguous premise. But if an establishment wanted to set up something like what we're talking about but only do it during the car shows? **[23:45] City Manager Stark:** What we've done in the past, yeah, or what we did—we've done some temporary licenses, clothing stuff of that nature. But again, it hasn't allowed them to roam the streets. And yeah, I just—I don't recall your exact code provision on that, but just to be clear, it allows them to expand the facility, but it still needs to be in a compact and contiguous area. **[24:06] Councilmember Thorson:** Yeah, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like Rottie's situation where they had something set up in front of their business and it was like their outdoor patio, but it was not clear. **[24:25] City Manager Stark:** I think we've done things on a temporary basis. Okay, just to be clear, it allows them to expand the facility, but it still needs to be in a compact and contiguous area. **[24:45] Councilmember Peterson:** Throwing a wrench in there—how about those tables and the chairs? Because I've been getting asked about that from that last bar meeting we had. Has that been— **[24:58] Councilmember Wang:** Yeah, we discussed it at the Planning Commission, and I think we decided on more commercial-grade materials. So, we have some examples that I think Lisa Ricci will provide to the businesses just to give some options. **[25:15] Councilmember Peterson:** Kind of anxious before the car show to get something squared away, but of course, fairness and that's probably more important right now. What I was going to say: right now they're not allowed to do it? No. **[25:25] Mayor Furlong:** So is what I'm hearing the roaming around? No, not the roaming, but the chairs, the picnic tables outside—all that was allowed during COVID. It was a temporary—right, temporary. We can make some of those public spaces available, but again, I just—I don't want COVID to become the "well, we did it last year." We pushed on some stuff on that; that isn't the rules anymore. We would need to define the area, we would need to try and delineate it or just make it clear where the area of service is. If you want to have some outdoor tables, you can do that, but again, it needs to be within a certain area. We have to decide whether we want to allow it on public property, things of that nature. **[26:12] Brandy Howe:** So that's something we can look into—is whether these kind of—I'll call them like satellite patio areas in the right-of-way—would be doable. You know, what it would take, what some of the pros and cons would be. So that's certainly something we can look into. I'll take a look and see what is on the books in terms of seating out on the public right-of-way and provide some ideas or options in terms of how to make it a little bit more flexible. A lot of communities do allow it, but the limitations are basically related to the amount of land on the sidewalk. If you've got a very narrow sidewalk, you still need to make sure there's adequate room for the public to walk through. **[26:38] City Manager Stark:** No, and candidly, some businesses—when I've seen it—because you still need to have the ADA, you still need to have the accessibility. And so, candidly, some businesses, because of their location, won't qualify or it just won't make sense because of their location on a corner or something like that. So that's, you know, not everyone will get the same opportunity. Right? Right. **[26:58] City Manager Stark:** I think that's something we can look into: whether these "satellite" patio areas in the right-of-way would be doable, what it would take, and what some of the pros and cons would be. **[27:12] Brandy Howe:** I would add that you're in the process of updating your downtown revitalization plan, and one of the goals is to make it a more lively, walkable downtown environment where you can see people are here having a couple of chairs outside of a coffee shop where there's some casual coffee drinking going on. That is probably not a bad thing. You may not want to have people drinking pints of beer—maybe you do, I don't know. But yeah, we'll take a look and see what the options are. **[27:45] Mayor Furlong:** So right now, Love’s Ice Cream has some tables outside for coffee. Under the ordinance, are they allowed to do that? **[27:55] City Manager Stark:** I have no idea. So, I mean, candidly, sometimes things just show up. I don't know if that was asked for or if it's just put out there. That's why I close my eyes when I walk around—[laughter]—walking into buildings. **[28:13] Mayor Furlong:** Alcohol is different than coffee. **[28:15] City Manager Stark:** It is. I mean, there's that extra layer of: you cannot leave the defined premises with booze. I mean, putting a table out and maybe having a display of an antique or allowing people to sit and drink coffee—you don't have any of the liquor licensing. That's just then, "Hey, this is the city's right-of-way, you're obstructing it, please move your stuff." The alcohol is just another layer. Yeah. **[28:40] Mayor Furlong:** Okay. All right. Do we have enough information? **[28:45] City Manager Stark:** I believe so, yeah. I do. It sounds like we need to act quickly because you've got people wanting to build things and possibly sit outside. So this will probably be coming forward shortly. **[28:55] Mayor Furlong:** Okay. Brandy, you got anything to add or not? All right, that's it. Yeah, I've just—you know, we're very fortunate to have Brandy in this capacity. So thanks to Brandy and her team for doing this work for us. **[29:00] Brandy Howe:** Thank you, Brandy. Thank you for the opportunity. **[29:05] Mayor Furlong:** Anybody else got anything to add to it? If not, we've got nothing else. Motion to adjourn? **[29:08] Councilmember Wang:** It's a move. **[29:10] Councilmember Peterson:** Second. **[29:12] Mayor Furlong:** Seconded by Councilmember Peterson. Any discussion? Not? All those in favor signify by saying aye. **[29:15] Council:** Aye. **[29:16] Mayor Furlong:** I oppose? [Silence]. We are adjourned till 6:30. Thank you.