This transcript features the **Hermantown Planning & Zoning Commission** meeting from January 17, 2024. Based on the context provided and the dialogue within the meeting, the primary speakers are identified as: * **Corey Kolquist:** Commission Chair * **Eric Johnson:** Community Development Director (City Staff) * **Jeff Miller:** Consultant from H KGI (Comprehensive Plan) * **Beth Wloff:** Commission Member * **Valette:** Commission Member * **John Geissler:** City Councilor / Commission Member * **John Mulder:** City Administrator (City Staff) *** **[0:00] Corey Kolquist:** Good evening everybody, we'd like to welcome you to the City of Hermantown Planning and Zoning Commission meeting for January 17, 2024. It's currently 7 o'clock in the evening. We'd like to start with a roll call of members this evening: myself, Corey Kolquist, here; Valette, here; Beth Wloff, here; Buckley Simmons is not here; Dante Tomason is not here; and Councilor Geissler. Thank you for that. Second up is the approval of the agenda this evening. Can I get a motion for that, please? **[0:22] Corey Kolquist:** Kolquist with a motion, thank you for that. Can I get a second? **[0:25] Beth Wloff:** Wloff with a second. **[0:27] Corey Kolquist:** Thank you for that. All in favor? (Group: Aye). Motion passes. Third up this evening is the approval of the minutes from the December 19th, 2023, regular meeting. Can I get a motion on that, please? **[0:46] Valette:** Valette, move to approve. **[0:48] Corey Kolquist:** Thank you for that. Can I get a second? **[0:50] Corey Kolquist:** Kolquist with a second, thank you for that. All in favor? (Group: Aye). Motion passes. Number four this evening is public discussion. Is anybody here this evening to speak on anything that's not on this evening's agenda already? Not hearing any, we'll move on. Just for everybody's knowledge, 5B has dropped off our agenda this evening, so if you're looking to speak or talk about 5B at all this evening, it has been postponed to a later date. We're going to move on with 5A. It's an application by Aola Architects for a Commercial Industrial Development Permit for the construction of a 3,139 sq. ft. dental clinic and associated site improvements. The property is located at 4800 West Arrowhead Road and is located in a C-Commercial zoning district. Eric, what do you have for us on this one? **[1:31] Eric Johnson:** This is a Commercial Industrial Development Permit. This is a location at the intersection of Stebner Road and Arrowhead Road. On your screens today is a map showing in pink where this projected lot is. About a couple years ago, the city rezoned both these 1-acre parcels to C-Commercial from P-Public. So this is actually the second go-around on this particular site. Back in July of 2022, the same group had proposed a dental clinic on this site, but due to cost overruns associated with that time, the project did not go forward. Since then, that group has engaged a new architect and is looking at some different building styles and construction methods to help control the costs associated with this. This project is still on the 1-acre site. It will have access from Arrowhead Road by a shared driveway which would access both of those two 1-acre parcels. As we mentioned earlier, the property is zoned C-Commercial, and what they're looking for this evening is construction of a 3,139 sq. ft. dental office and a future 1,500 sq. ft. expansion. So what you see on your screen is in the gray—that's the building that would be constructed as part of this, and just to the left of that is that potential 1,500 expansion pad. At that point, they're proposing 23 parking spaces associated with the initial build-out, and they have room for an additional 14 parking spaces associated with that expansion. Water and sanitary sewer will come from Arrowhead Road; there's existing ability to get into those two mains via service lines. There's proposed stormwater detention which will be located just south of this building on that particular 1-acre property. The applicant has submitted some preliminary engineering plans to date; those are continued to be worked on in discussions between the city engineer and their engineer to finalize these for construction document purposes. The proposed building does meet or exceed any of the setbacks, so it falls within our requirements of the C zoning district. The building is approximately 10.6% lot coverage; in the zoning district, we allow up to 50%, so it's generally not taking up much of the site. The building is approximately 21 feet in height and it's going to be a combination of basically modular and some stick-built units, with the main portion of the building being a flat roof and then at the entry portion and the reception area, that's an entry element with a peaked roof associated with that and a little bit different building materials. Joe, if you want to scroll down, I think we have a couple there—there we go, thank you—different looks at it from a building elevation standpoint. As I mentioned, the flat roof is primarily the majority of that building, but we do have this peak roof element at the entry point. The dumpster enclosure will be comprised of similar materials as you see on the building here. As I mentioned, this had come through with a CIDP back in July '22, but due to increases in the building size, the expiration of that CIDP, and some changes in the overall look, it's come back for basically a new look for this Planning and Zoning commission. **[5:21] Corey Kolquist:** Thank you very much for that, Eric. Commission members, any questions or comments so far on the first applicant here? **[5:28] John Geissler:** Eric, I guess I have a question looking at the location map there. If I recall correctly, there were two separate lots that were for sale, and this is the one that would be further east? **[5:39] Eric Johnson:** Exactly. For lack of better terms, it is the interior lot. That's correct. **[5:43] John Geissler:** Okay. And then are we concerned with the lot to the west as far as traffic flow getting in and out of that? Will that use this existing entrance, or are we not concerned with that? **[5:54] Eric Johnson:** Yep, this will use the—it will be a shared driveway between those two buildings. We talked about this from the city staff standpoint in traffic flow and they said that that was the best, rather than having two individual driveways, just have this one shared driveway. **[6:10] John Geissler:** Perfect, thank you. **[6:11] Corey Kolquist:** Commission members, any other questions or comments so far? **[6:15] Beth Wloff:** Is there anything planned for that other lot or that other site at this point? **[6:19] Eric Johnson:** At this point, no. **[6:22] Corey Kolquist:** Commission members, any other questions or comments before we ask the applicant if they need to speak? **[6:28] Valette:** I just had stormwater. It's going to be, it looks like, into a retention pond? **[6:32] Eric Johnson:** That is correct, yes. On basically the south side of the building, there'll be a retention pond there. **[6:40] Corey Kolquist:** Kelly, do you have anything you'd like to add to this? (No response). Thank you. Commission members, once again, any other questions or comments on 5A this evening before I open it up for a public hearing? **[7:02] John Geissler:** I was glad to see it resurrected, and it looks good. **[7:05] Corey Kolquist:** Perfect, thank you for that. We're going to open up the floor at 7:08 for a public hearing. If anybody is here this evening to speak on 5A, this is your chance to do so. Is there anybody online? Joe, anybody out there? I'd like to speak on 5A this evening? Not hearing any, we'll close the public hearing at 7:08. Commission members, any other final questions or comments on 5A before we look for a motion? Not hearing any, I look for a motion on 5A please. **[8:05] John Geissler:** Mr. Chair, seeing it meets and exceeds zoning requirements, I move to approve agenda item 5A as stated. **[8:12] Corey Kolquist:** Thank you for that. Can I get a second? **[8:14] Valette:** Valette, second. **[8:16] Corey Kolquist:** All in favor? (Group: Aye). Motion passes. Thank you very much. Once again, for everybody's knowledge, 5B is no longer on the docket for this evening. We're going to move on to number six, which is continuing business. It's an update from HKGI on the Hermantown Comprehensive Plan. **[8:35] Eric Johnson:** Great, thank you. A couple of you that are on the Planning and Zoning do sit in the steering committee associated with the City's Comprehensive Plan update. We've been working on this for about a year now, and before us this evening is Mr. Jeff Miller of HKGI. He's been working on this since the beginning and he's going to give us a presentation about some future land uses, as well as where they've been in the process and kind of next steps moving forward. **[9:05] Jeff Miller:** Great, thanks Eric. (Adjusting presentation). All right, there we go. Sorry about that. As Eric said, I'm Jeff Miller with HKGI. I think we met last spring or summer. We're going to give you an update on the land use planning. We've done a lot of work on trying to get to a future land use map which, if you remember, your current Comprehensive Plan does not have many maps, and does not have a land use map per se. So what we're going to do tonight is give an overview and open it up for discussion about the future land use designations that would be in the plan: the future land use map, future roadways map, and then a future Park and Trail planning map. As far as the process, we're in number five of the process, but we're more than halfway done. Based on this map and the input that we get, we're pretty close to just developing a lot of the chapters as draft chapters for you to look at. We're looking at having the plan be complete in June or July. The last task on here is evaluating the existing city ordinances; that was part of the original work scope and we'll be doing that at the end of the project as well. **[10:55] Jeff Miller:** A little background: we've been doing a lot of mapping, so it’s taken us a lot of time to get to where we're at. These are the only two maps I think that are in the current plan; they're not GIS maps. We've been developing existing conditions maps showing where the water resources are, the wetlands, the floodplains—the things that are going to prevent development in certain areas of the city over time. We created an existing land use map. The data for that comes from the county and it's very detailed tax classification data, so we have to consolidate that into meaningful data. We've been working with your current zoning map. As a result of the future land use map, if and when you update your zoning ordinance, that zoning map will probably get updated. We tried to identify, as best we could, unimproved residential land. This map shows a coarse look at what that land might be, looking at where the wetlands are. We're working on parks and trails and we met with the Park Board previous to this meeting to get their input on how we look at existing parks and their service areas—where there's land that could be a park versus where areas need parks going forward as the city grows. Roadways are mapped a couple of different ways. **[13:21] Jeff Miller:** For the projections we're using for the land use map, we looked at the history of growth in Hermantown over the past 30 years. It’s been really healthy, getting over the 10,000 mark recently. But to get at projections, we started by looking at neighboring cities and the region. As I think you know, the county is projected to be losing population over the next 20 years. The state overall is not growing a lot, projection-wise. St. Louis County is one of those counties that's projected to lose population at this point. You see that drop of the county. The Duluth area would grow somewhat, but not big numbers. For Hermantown, we took that projection into account, which gets you to 10,672 in 20 years. That's not a lot of growth. So we looked at a medium growth number and a high growth scenario. We came up with 12,000 by 2045—that seems like an aggressive number. With that, we pointed out the household number is 4,400 households, which would be a growth of 700 units. That seems like healthy growth. Then we looked at what kind of land would be needed to accommodate that. For 700 households, if the housing is built at a half-acre density, it takes more land than if it's a quarter-acre or an eighth of an acre. The biggest number would be 350 acres if you stayed with a half-acre minimum. **[16:34] Jeff Miller:** The next step is the future land use plan designations. What we're proposing is four residential land uses: Rural, Suburban Residential, Neighborhood Residential, and what we have called "Urban Residential" on this list—though that will probably be changed to "Urban Densities." Then a Mixed Use category, Commercial, Business, Light Industrial, and Park/Open Space. Tonight we want to focus on the residential land uses. "Rural" would be the non-sewered western part of the city. We're proposing that the maximum density would be one unit per 10 acres, which is bigger than what you have today. Today you can do five-acre lots out on the west side. We're proposing 10 acres because if a sewer pipe gets put out to the west at some point, it's going to be much more subdividable to support the cost of that pipe if the lots out there are bigger. When you get to five-acre lots, it's really hard to subdivide, and the expense of that sewer pipe per lot is very expensive. **[18:52] Jeff Miller:** "Suburban Residential" would be most of the sewered residential land on the eastern half or two-thirds of Hermantown. We're proposing that would be for single-unit homes, detached two-unit dwellings, ADUs, and connected urban services. Maximum density would be four units per acre, or a minimum lot size of a quarter-acre. That would be a change from today where the R-3's minimum lot size is a half-acre. That's not requiring developers to go to a smaller lot size; it's just enabling them to. "Neighborhood Residential" would allow for a mix of housing types including single-unit detached houses, multiple-unit dwellings up to four units (duplexes, triplexes, quads), courtyard cottage dwellings—which we've talked about, the idea of smaller detached cottages that have a shared courtyard—often for senior households that don't want to maintain large yards. Then Townhomes and ADUs. The last one is "Urban Residential," which would be for townhomes and apartments. This is driven by housing trends: more demand for housing options, allowing "missing middle" housing, and modular construction to increase affordability. **[22:20] Jeff Miller:** Looking at the map, the darker yellows are Suburban Residential (sewer available, quarter-acre minimum). The orange is showing where Neighborhood Residential could be a fit. We looked at areas where there was more vacant land closer to the Maple Grove Road corridor and Hermantown Marketplace. You can see there's the Keene Creek area and these other areas where we saw the most potential for development. As far as "Urban Residential" (brown areas), that would be townhomes or apartments near Maple Grove Road, Keene Creek, and Highway 53. We are showing Mixed Use mostly in the Hermantown Marketplace area and then some places along Highway 53. I'd like to get reactions to the map. **[26:50] Beth Wloff:** Will the Marketplace zoning go away? **[26:55] Jeff Miller:** This isn't the zoning yet, this is the land use. The mixed use on this map would be where the marketplace zoning is today. **[27:07] Beth Wloff:** Many years ago, when we did the Hermantown Blandin Retreat, we talked about trying to get a mixed-use area on Maple Grove closer to the schools and now with the Y, just because there are—you still have to go quite a ways for some simple things. We were working very diligently on that because it looked like it was something that was needed and very much wanted, and that is non-existent here. **[28:25] Jeff Miller:** So, looking at this map, we tried to highlight where there's vacant land. The gray area is the R-3 zoning today. Within that, we looked at vacant land (orange). The light orange shows where there's larger lots that have a house on them but are really large and potentially subdividable. We didn't identify that specific area you mentioned for mixed-use because most of that land up there is probably smaller single-family lots today. **[30:05] Beth Wloff:** There are some—not small, they're single-family lots that are today large. If there was a specific area... trying to work on that area on Maple Grove as you turn down Ugstad Road, where the city used to have their offices. We were talking about developing that area... and we spent I think three days on just honing in on that. I look at this and go, "Man, that's completely gone." **[31:07] Eric Johnson:** I know when HKGI was working with staff, we were looking at parcels that wouldn't require major assemblage to be able to create some of these things. If you look a little bit up at the intersection of 53 and Ugstad on the west side, there's that 40 up there that seems to make some good sense for mixed-use development across from the area. Originally, that development was called Square 37—that had been looked at for mixed-use, but unfortunately, it became a single-family type of community. **[32:00] Beth Wloff:** So you're talking about Ugstad and Arrowhead? **[32:03] Eric Johnson:** No, Maple Grove and Ugstad. Where we have the park. There are some parcels there. **[32:26] Jeff Miller:** Are there any examples of mixed-use you're thinking of? More of the small coffee shop, somewhere you could buy small groceries and a place to gather? **[32:45] Beth Wloff:** One of the reasons was because the old city offices were not being utilized correctly at all. If we're renting, that changes what that is, but that part actually is a pretty good size. Having something where—if we could use that one or across the street when that was still vacant—it could have been just a really nice little small strip with even a couple little houses, I mean apartments upstairs. It fit, it was walkable, it was everything right there. It just seemed like a really good place to be. **[33:45] Eric Johnson:** That's similar to how we talked during this process about the idea of "Neighborhood Commercial." If you look on the map, the only closest we have is this tiny little red dot down there—you don't see it anywhere else. That type of idea makes total sense on these major roadways. Under a Neighborhood Commercial, you could still have a handful of apartments. **[34:33] Beth Wloff:** There are some really nice ones... it's got the cute little commercial down and really nice apartments above. It looks good, it's non-invasive, the parking is light. And yet, if you look where we're going, we either have to go all the way to 53 or that itty bitty little guy here—and I'm not sure if he's still open. **[34:55] Eric Johnson:** He's not even open now. **[34:57] Beth Wloff:** So we really have limited what, as a community... I don't know very many communities that have to go this far away to get just a basic anything. **[35:25] Corey Kolquist:** I don't think anybody's against it, it's just a matter of the market. Right now, I think it's important for us to not limit that, at least look at a way that it can be. I think it's needed in that area. **[35:55] John Geissler:** Those ideas are not unanimously popular, I know. **[36:02] Beth Wloff:** In the right place, again. **[36:12] Jeff Miller:** What would the smallest version of that be? Would it be one corner of that intersection? **[36:33] Beth Wloff:** It doesn't have to be very big to fit three small businesses in with nice little studio apartments above or one-bedroom apartments above. The impact isn't great. **[37:05] Jeff Miller:** Are there other places along Maple Grove Road that you think...? **[37:10] Beth Wloff:** I've been dreaming of several, but it kind of gets into the same thing when we do zoning—we don't like to "spot zone." **[37:20] Eric Johnson:** Maybe from the land use, if you start identifying, as Joe touched on, the Maple Grove Corridor—maybe we take a strip X number of feet on both sides of Maple Grove. Even though the majority of it's residential today, if it ever turned over, it could be this other type of use. I think that would be very wise for the future. **[38:25] Beth Wloff:** Duluth has the neighborhood mixed-use, and it is regulating the size that the commercial can be, and yet you end up putting some residential in with that. It makes a really nice feature for a lot of different uses. I've appreciated that change in their zoning there. **[39:20] John Geissler:** What kind of percentage would that be? Like 25% business, 75% residential? **[39:26] Beth Wloff:** It could be up to 50/50. But you're wanting to have it up top, so you've got to have it all to code... it's only two stories. It does make a nice—I mean even in this area—a small laundromat. There's a lot of people who have to go a long way for a laundromat. A little coffee shop... you've got a nice little place to take care of folks. **[40:55] Valette:** Going with what you're saying, Beth, even a specialized store like a small grocery... we had Bayside Market on Park Point for a hundred years. A place like that where you don't have to go all the way to Sam's or to Kwik Trip to get a gallon of gas for the lawnmower. **[41:02] Corey Kolquist:** We're only talking like two miles, though, right? From here to Kwik Trip in either direction? **[41:15] Beth Wloff:** We're talking about families. What I'm seeing happening is either young or more senior age brackets. It becomes a hassle when you're having to put three kids in car seats to take them a long way away, instead of strapping them in the stroller and you do a little jog there. **[41:47] Eric Johnson:** On the south side of Maple Grove, we have the advantage, particularly between Stebner and Ugstad, that we do have some fairly vacant large parcels. I could see some good infill development on those. **[43:13] John Geissler:** What would you dictate—it has to have residential in it? Mixed-use doesn't mean it *has* to have residential. **[43:21] Beth Wloff:** You don't *have* to have it. It's just that's where you can, as an investor, utilize much better bang for the buck. **[43:50] John Geissler:** I comprehend that side of it, I'm just having a hard time wrapping my mind around that even looking out 50-60 years. **[44:02] Jeff Miller:** We have worked with other cities on mixed-use, and you don't have to require it. This land use plan is meant to be longer term than the zoning. You say, "We want to invite the potential for it." You still have to go through the zoning process. **[44:47] John Geissler:** I'm obviously not against having options, that's for sure. I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around that one because it's not that far to anything. I mean, it's two miles to Target, two miles to any Kwik Trip, a mile to Super One. I understand the walkability portion, but I think in order to have a viable business there, you'd have to have a significant amount of residents if they are going to be able to walk there. **[45:15] Beth Wloff:** Which we do right here in the center. We have quite a few. **[45:35] Jeff Miller:** We actually did concepts working with staff to figure out road access. Probably means connecting more roads, breaking down the one-mile grid. You can see on here we have a draft map showing roads that could potentially connect. Down that Maple Grove/Ugstad area, those dashed lines would be potential new roads. It is breaking down that access, which would be important for a mixed-use area. **[47:59] Jeff Miller:** We found 900 acres of R-3 land that's vacant. For the proposed future land use map, we're showing 171 acres for Neighborhood Residential (townhomes/multi-unit) and 65 acres for Urban Residential (apartments). Then Mixed Use vacant (Marketplace and Hwy 53) is 168 acres. Even if that was built at the new minimum single-family lot size (quarter-acre), that would be 1,600 units right there. That's more than the 700 units projected. The goal isn't to identify tons of land for higher density; it's just identifying options. Today, if you want to build something more than single-family or two-family, you have to do it in the Commercial district or a PUD. This would say, "Here's where it is appropriate to do other housing types." **[50:18] Jeff Miller:** Next is parks planning. Your 2018 master plan identifies future parks on the map. As we've been talking it through, it's been identified that some of those are really just city-owned land that's undeveloped and maybe they are not all great places for parks. Today you have Keene Creek, Stebner, Fichtner, Rose Road, and the schools. This map shows service areas. If the goal is a quarter-mile, that's the pink areas. Half-mile is the tan. A mile is the purple. The Comprehensive Plan will define Hermantown's goal for access. **[53:46] Eric Johnson:** Really, especially if we start making a move towards smaller lot sizes, the idea of a neighborhood park gains more traction. Right now, we're lucky we have half-acre plus lots; people have their own park in their yard. If we move towards smaller lots, you don't have that luxury anymore. We should start identifying gaps. **[55:45] Jeff Miller:** Does the residential land use designation make sense—having Rural, Suburban, Neighborhood, and Urban? Do you support the direction of the future land use map? Do you support identifying future roadways and the parks plan? **[56:50] John Mulder:** (Regarding community feedback) There's probably would-be developers and then other probably more larger-scale owners. That's probably closer to the majority representative. I bet that's changed over the last 20 years. **[58:23] Jeff Miller:** We want to have flexibility because if a property owner says, "I'm never selling my land," it's not going to happen there. **[59:10] Beth Wloff:** And the dynamics will change as smaller homes and more townhouses come in. We're going to need to have those ancillary businesses as well. **[1:00:15] Corey Kolquist:** Those ancillary businesses... in most suburbs, those always seem to be around controlled-access intersections. **[1:00:30] Eric Johnson:** Even though we call it Neighborhood Residential, we still have some of that flexibility. We could identify that within those districts, you can have 3,000 square foot shops. Not calling it straight-up mixed use, but allowing some ability to have other commercial or office types. That dental office tonight could have gone somewhere else. You've got to have spots for those as the population grows. **[1:02:08] Eric Johnson:** The mixed-use is extending further south along Hwy 53 than the Marketplace zoning today. That is a bigger area of mixed-use potential than the zoning map shows. **[1:02:55] Jeff Miller:** That green line on the map is the potential location of the next sewer. We have a lot of land available for development without having to build that next sanitary sewer in the near future. This was a very informative map for staff. **[1:04:46] Beth Wloff:** So often you hear contractors say there's no place to build. This is interesting because you hear that all the time—trying to buy a lot in Hermantown, there's nothing available. **[1:05:32] Eric Johnson:** Right now, there's really only one builder in town and they're releasing lots slowly. If we just keep the status quo for 20 years, we generally issue 35 single-family permits a year. 20 times 35 is 700 right there. I'm getting the most calls on apartments or twin homes. I'm not getting calls for traditional single-family half-acre lot developments. **[1:06:45] Jeff Miller:** Markets just not there. **[1:07:31] Eric Johnson:** We're going to ask HKGI to come before City Council here in the next four to six weeks. There will still be opportunities for public input. As we reach the tail end, we're going to take a look at the zoning as well. **[1:09:21] Corey Kolquist:** Number seven this evening is new business. 7A is a discussion on Accessory Dwelling Units (ADUs). Eric, what do you have for us on this? **[1:09:30] Eric Johnson:** The last P&Z meeting we had a brief discussion about ADUs. Staff started looking at different communities throughout the state—Duluth, White Bear Lake, Northfield. All these communities allow ADUs in some fashion. Common threads: they are allowed in all residential zone districts; there's no minimum lot size. ADU sizes generally range from 300 to 800 square feet. Utilities have to be provided from the main living structure (currently we require a lot split and separate utilities, but for an ADU, they would come from the parent structure). There's always a dedicated parking spot. Where it differed was ownership—some required the parent lot to be owner-occupied, others allowed it on rental properties. Some are a permitted use, others require a license. **[1:13:08] Eric Johnson:** Years ago, we were kicking around: do we allow ADUs on lots that are half-acre? We've got quite a few that are half-acre but not one acre, so you can't subdivide those. Are those that "missing middle" where you could allow ADUs? At that point, we were using the term "granny pod." It makes sense for mom or dad, but what happens after they're gone? It's going to turn into a rental. Do we have an issue with that? **[1:14:44] Beth Wloff:** Because we have so many on private septic, I was always under the understanding you could not get a secondary unit on there. **[1:15:30] Eric Johnson:** That's a discussion we'd have to have with St. Louis County. Right now, they permit well and septic. Existing septics are usually not sized for it. It would put the onus on the property owner to prove the system can accommodate a four-bedroom instead of a three-bedroom. **[1:17:04] Valette:** Roughly what percentage of residences in Hermantown now is a rental? **[1:17:15] John Mulder:** We do not know that exactly, but we are around 20-25% rental if you count apartment complexes. For single-family, it's lower. **[1:18:51] John Mulder:** I'm with you—10 years ago I wouldn't have thought about it, but I'm more open to it today. I think there's a place; you just have to set the parameters on it. **[1:21:01] John Geissler:** What is the downside to having an ADU in the city? **[1:21:12] Beth Wloff:** If you have a smaller lot and your neighbor has their house and all of a sudden there's another small one going there, people worry it brings down the value. Florida is having this issue—everything is becoming an ADU, even the camper you own. They are saying, "Whoa, stop." The sewers are getting overused, 911 address locations change... they didn't have the rules and now they're coming back putting in a bunch of rules. **[1:23:01] Corey Kolquist:** Who would put the parameters on that? **[1:23:21] Eric Johnson:** It would be a discussion with the City Council to find out their appetite. If there's a consensus, staff would generate those parameters and bring it back to this group for discussion. **[1:24:08] John Mulder:** The biggest hurdle would be lot size. Are we comfortable on a half-acre lot having another structure? **[1:24:55] Corey Kolquist:** I have a much greater appetite for it today. Your children need a home, or a mother lives in it for 15 years and then it turns into a rental. I don't think you're going to get 500 applications in the first two years. I think it's going to be few and far between. It's like the flag lot thing—we were against it for so long, and now we do five or six a year and none of them seem bad. **[1:26:27] John Geissler:** How do you handle garages or shops? If a person builds a big shop, how do you know they haven't put living quarters in it? **[1:26:55] Eric Johnson:** Our building officials will raise questions if it looks like a bedroom up there. Right now, our ordinance says a minimum house size is 792 square feet permanently fixed to a foundation. You're basically building a tiny house. **[1:28:34] John Geissler:** Emergency services would be a big concern for me. If you've got a 911 number, what building do you go to if there's an emergency? **[1:29:20] Eric Johnson:** We just went through the exercise on Payton Acres of assigning house numbers. In a lot of instances, we have some wiggle room where we can add an "A" or something. **[1:30:00] Corey Kolquist:** Any other conversations this evening on ADUs? Not hearing any, we'll move on to number eight. Communications, anything this evening, Eric? **[1:30:03] Eric Johnson:** No, there's none. **[1:30:05] Corey Kolquist:** Thank you for that. Number nine, commission member reports. Myself, Corey Kolquist, no report. Valette? **[1:30:10] Valette:** No report. **[1:30:12] Beth Wloff:** No report. **[1:30:14] John Geissler:** No report. **[1:30:18] Corey Kolquist:** I look for a motion to adjourn at 8:31 PM. **[1:30:20] Valette:** Valette moves to adjourn. **[1:30:22] Beth Wloff:** Wloff second. **[1:30:24] Corey Kolquist:** All in favor? (Group: Aye). The meeting is closed at 8:31 p.m. Thank you very much.