This transcript has been formatted with the correct speaker names based on the municipality roles provided. Note: Phonetic mis-transcriptions in the original (e.g., "Chrysler" for **Geissler**, "jelly" for **Hjelle**, and "Mr. Boner/Mullen" for **Mr. Mulder**) have been corrected to reflect the official names. *** [0:00] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Let's start the meeting and stand for the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Roll call please. [0:15] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [0:16] **Councilor John Geissler**: Here. [0:17] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [0:18] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Here. [0:19] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [0:20] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Here. [0:21] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [0:22] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Here. Announcements—do any counselors have anything that they would like to announce at this time? I would just like to welcome Trish Crego as our newest employee, the Utility and Infrastructure Director. Welcome, Trish. Welcome aboard. [0:46] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: And uh, you had something earlier if you wanted to bring that? [0:50] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Oh sure. Yeah, just uh, thank you to the police and the fire department for hosting and helping out at the... I can't even think of the name of it... it was a great event and appreciate you doing that for the community. Thank you. [1:05] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Anything else from Council? We have no public hearings tonight. Communications are all listed. Mr. Mulder, could you give us a short synopsis of the pre-agenda presentation on the Hermantown Arena design? [1:20] **City Administrator John Mulder**: Sure. We have been meeting with members of HAHA and the school district, including the varsity hockey coaches, on the design of the Arena. We are kind of in that schematic design which puts up blocks down in general sizes and square footages and how they are organized, and we feel like we're getting pretty close to what we think is that schematic design. And so that includes locker rooms, stadium seating, and revamped lobbies. So we're getting close to that and hopefully we'll have some final schematic designs probably about sometime in September. [2:05] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Next on the agenda is public discussion. This is a time that individuals can address the council about any item not on the agenda. Time limit we ask is three minutes per person. We will have also public discussion available during each of the agenda items before they are approved. Is there anyone here that wishes to address general public discussion either in the chambers or online? [2:44] **Corey Larson**: My name is Corey Larson, 53-43 Split Rail Drive, and I'm here again to discuss the future of the fire department and the Public Safety Division. So briefly, what my experience looks like: I've been in the fire service for about 15 years, currently hold the position of Assistant Chief of a combination fire department that serves about 22,000 people locally. We've also served as an EMS service director, firefighter for the City of Superior, operations manager for Lake County Ambulance, then also a paramedic and field training officer with Gold Cross. My education is a Bachelor's degree in EMS Management, Associate's Degree in Fire Science, and I'm currently working on my Master's degree in Public Administration with an emphasis in Emergency Management. [3:31] **Corey Larson**: After the last meeting, I did send an email to everybody in regards to a synopsis report that I put together and I'm here to see if anybody's got any questions or concerns into anything that I put together. [3:48] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Questions from Council? [4:02] **Corey Larson**: Okay. With that, I would ask that I provide a presentation on what a fire department would look like in the event that it's not underneath the public safety director but a fire chief driven fire department at the next board meeting if you so wish. [4:14] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: So what what do you think are the negatives to what we're doing versus having the department as you see it? [4:17] **Corey Larson**: A public safety director, again, is not a very common model and there's too many operational components that are different between law enforcement and a fire department. With a fire chief who's got the experience and the dedication necessary, they're going to be able to run that fire department and really drive it towards the community health and Fire Prevention aspect. Having a public safety director—and this has been seen time and time again—there's too many discrepancies and a lot of times it can create a conflict of interest between appropriating funds and also those different administrative and operational components. [4:56] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: So you don't think that the fire commander and the existing experience... that we can get into this during a presentation when he wants to give that to us, if you'd like. You can schedule that with the City Clerk for our next meeting, such as the presentation you sat through today on the arena. It could be something like that and she'll put that on our next agenda if you wish. You also are free to comment on the fire department resolution we have tonight. [5:27] **Corey Larson**: Okay thank you. [5:28] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. [5:29] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Yeah, I guess so, wouldn't what he has to say tonight have to do with 2023-112? [5:36] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: It does, but he would like to give us a presentation on an alternative method also, and that's something that under this type of forum with three-minute limits, we can't do. [5:49] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Yeah, I'm just... I just worry that if, you know, something were to come up where we don't feel that the Department of Public Safety is the way to go, then we've already created the position. [6:00] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: We haven't filled any positions yet and you know, if we pass a resolution this evening, that can be changed at any future meeting. And I actually... if we all voted for something, anyone that voted for this point of view that succeeded can bring it up again. If somebody votes against it and it loses, they can't bring it up, or if somebody votes for it and it loses, they can't bring it up. That's some of the decorum rules we have to follow. But we can change any motion or anything we pass at any later meeting. [6:30] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: That was just my only concern, was that maybe that position being created would have started the ball rolling in a direction that we couldn't stop it if... [6:36] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: No, we can stop it as long as it's not filled. Is there any other public discussion either in Chambers or online? If anyone wishes to speak to the council about anything not on the agenda, you start with your name and address. [7:17] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: And there will be one last opportunity for public discussion if anyone wishes to speak to any item not on the agenda. Please speak up. [7:34] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Okay, we will close the general public discussion and move to the consent agenda, which includes minutes approval or correction of the July 17, 2023 city council minutes and accounts payable in the amount of $756,456.12. Do we have a motion? [8:00] **Councilor John Geissler**: Motion to approve. [8:01] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Geissler. Is there a second? [8:03] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Second. [8:04] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Roll call please. [8:08] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [8:09] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [8:10] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [8:11] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [8:12] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [8:13] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [8:14] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [8:15] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Resolutions. Resolution 2023-107, a resolution approving a special use permit for construction of an accessory structure in excess of 1,200 square feet in the R3 zoning District at 5491 West Arrowhead Road and imposing conditions thereon. Do we have a motion? [8:39] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Motion to approve. [8:40] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? [8:42] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Second. [8:43] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor LeBlanc. Mr. Mulder, should we have Mr. Johnson explain this? [8:47] **City Administrator John Mulder**: Yes, please. [8:48] **Community Development Director Eric Johnson**: Okay, great. Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor and members of the Council. As you mentioned, this is a special use permit for the construction of an accessory structure that's greater than 1,200 square feet. This property is located at 5491 West Arrowhead Road, which is on the north side of Arrowhead and just east of Lindau Road. This is an existing 2.5-acre lot of record. It's an R3 zoning district. Under the R3 zoning, you can have a 1,200 square foot structure with just a building permit; anything greater than that requires a special use permit. So the applicant's looking to construct a 40 by 40, or 1,600 square foot accessory structure. The ordinance allows building coverages on a lot up to 35 percent; in this case, the proposed building along with the other home and garage that he currently has would be a 5.2 percent lot coverage. So we're well under that. The setbacks with the proposed structure either meet or greatly exceed the minimums that the city has for accessory structure buildings. This proposed building would match the other garage structure that's currently on the property, and this accessory structure would be utilized for personal property; there would be no business activity or housing associated with that. Thank you. [10:04] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Are there any questions from Council? With no council questions, is there any public input on this resolution? Do we have any public input on Resolution 2023-107? If anyone wishes to comment on this resolution, please start with your name and address. [10:51] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: We'll close the public input and move to a roll call vote. [10:56] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [10:57] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [10:58] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [10:59] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [11:00] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [11:01] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [11:02] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [11:03] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Next is Resolution 2023-108, a resolution approving an amendment to the City Handbook regarding construction contract change orders. Do we have a motion? [11:15] **Councilor John Geissler**: Motion. [11:16] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Geissler. Is there a second? [11:18] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Second. [11:19] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor Hjelle. Mr. Mulder? [11:21] **City Administrator John Mulder**: So this comes out of the discussion that we had about a month or so ago about the change orders we have on construction projects. We've never had a formal policy on this, and this formal policy would allow change orders of less than $25,000 to be approved by the City Administrator, and as long as the aggregate doesn't exceed 10 percent. It also just acknowledges the fact that there are times when there are emergency change orders, and because of time, those may need to be made by the City Administrator and then we report those back to the next meeting. But it just kind of clarifies how that process will work. [12:12] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Are there any questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on Resolution 2023-108? Do we have any input from the public on this resolution for a change to the City Handbook? [12:47] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Is there any public input on this resolution? Roll call please. [12:54] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [12:55] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [12:56] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [12:57] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [12:58] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [12:59] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [13:00] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [13:01] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Resolution 2023-109, a resolution authorizing and directing the Mayor and City Clerk to execute and deliver an agreement for architectural services with DSGW Incorporated. Do we have a motion? [13:17] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Move to approve. [13:18] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor LeBlanc. Do we have a second? [13:21] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Second. [13:22] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor Hjelle. And I've been informed that Councilor Geissler will not be voting on this. Would you like to make a statement regarding that? [13:28] **Councilor John Geissler**: I am not voting on this issue because it's my employer. I still figured it'd be a conflict of interest. [13:36] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Mr. Mulder? [13:37] **City Administrator John Mulder**: So, as you know, we are in the process of designing the improvements to the ice arena and we've hired—we're proposing that we'd hire DSGW to do that. We went through an RFP process back in March of 2022, and so this is the contract for those services. [14:02] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Any questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on this resolution? Any public input on the resolution regarding an agreement with DSGW for architectural services? Is there any public input on Resolution 2023-109? Roll call please. [14:47] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [14:48] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [14:49] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [14:50] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [14:51] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [14:52] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Resolution 2023-110, a resolution awarding contract for one-ton pickup truck to North Country GM in the amount of $52,881.87 plus applicable taxes and fees. Is there a motion? [15:10] **Councilor John Geissler**: I'll move to approve. [15:11] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Geissler. Do we have a second? [15:14] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Second. [15:15] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor LeBlanc. Mr. Mulder? [15:17] **City Administrator John Mulder**: So this is for a 2024 pickup for the Public Works department. This is a little bit of an awkward situation in so much that this is in the 2024 budget that you haven't approved yet. But we've talked about the Capital Improvement Plan, and because of the lead times, we are asking permission to go ahead and award this contract so that we can have it delivered sometime in 2024. [15:47] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Any questions or comments from Council? [15:52] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: I do have one. When is this paid for then? [15:56] **City Administrator John Mulder**: In 2024. It will be paid actually upon delivery. [16:03] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Maybe 2025 then. That's all. Yeah. [16:07] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Any other questions or comments from Council? Public input on this resolution? Do we have any public input on Resolution 2023-110? Thank you. Last opportunity for public input on the resolution awarding a contract for the purchase of a one-ton pickup truck. Roll call please. [16:47] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [16:48] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [16:49] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [16:50] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [16:51] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [16:52] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [16:53] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [16:54] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Resolution 2023-111, a resolution awarding contract for a pothole trailer to STEPP Manufacturing in the amount of $53,700 plus applicable taxes and fees. Do we have a motion? [17:11] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Motion to approve. [17:12] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Do we have a second? [17:14] **Councilor John Geissler**: Second. [17:15] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor Geissler. Mr. Mulder? [17:17] **City Administrator John Mulder**: So this is a 2023 Capital Improvement Plan project item. We have this in the 2023 budget, but we are looking to replace the existing pothole trailer. The one that we have is gone past its expected life, so we're looking to replace it with this purchase. [17:41] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Do we have any questions from Council? [17:45] **Councilor John Geissler**: This is coming out of the 2023 budget, right? [17:47] **City Administrator John Mulder**: Yes. [17:48] **Councilor John Geissler**: We probably won't get it until 2024 though? Is that kind of... [17:51] **City Administrator John Mulder**: If that is the case, we'll probably have to do a budget amendment where we'll carry over that money into the '24 budget. [17:58] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Anything else from Council? Is there any public input on this resolution? Is there any public input on Resolution 2023-111? Any public input on the contract for the purchase of a pothole trailer? Roll call please. [18:41] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [18:42] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [18:43] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [18:44] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [18:45] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [18:46] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [18:47] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [18:48] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Resolution 2023-112, a resolution creating a Department of Public Safety and approving related job descriptions and positions. Do I have a motion? [19:04] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Motion to approve. [19:05] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? *(Silence)* [19:20] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Without a second, the motion dies for lack of a second. So then I would only ask is, what is the Council's wishes in terms of this issue? On January 1, we are not going to have a volunteer fire department anymore. We need to make some steps in arranging for an alternative delivery method. So what is your direction in that regard? [19:47] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Perhaps we should have tabled, maybe, but I was hoping to hear... I know we have some concerned citizens that are permanent residents with fire experience that want to speak to us regarding this tonight, and I guess I would like to hear them out. [20:10] **Councilor John Geissler**: Yeah, I guess I didn't feel comfortable making a motion without first hearing from the public. Maybe that's what we've seen as the central issue. [20:21] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: I mean, we can't discuss it until we have the motion on the table. Now, we can reread this and we can second it for discussion, and the counselors are free to vote for, against, or whatever they wish when it comes time to vote. But right now, the motion is dead. Would anyone like to bring this up as a motion for discussion? [20:47] **Councilor John Geissler**: Can we discuss if we move to table it? [20:49] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Nope, there's no discussion on tabling. We have to have a new motion. Do we have a motion still? [21:00] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Motion to approve. [21:01] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? [21:03] **Councilor John Geissler**: Second. [21:04] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor Geissler. Now we can move to Mr. Mulder for a synopsis. [21:07] **City Administrator John Mulder**: Sure. So, as you know, we've been talking about what is the next phase in providing fire service, and we've been having this conversation for the last six or seven months. The fire department has said that as of December 31st, they will no longer be providing fire service to the city, and so we have been making plans to create a public safety department that would have both police and fire under a Director of Public Safety. These two full-time positions would provide kind of the managerial and operational duties for the fire division, and they would also respond to calls during the normal shifts. These positions would report to the Director of Public Safety, which would be the current Chief of Police, Jim Crace. [22:20] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Are there any comments right now from Council? [22:24] **Councilor John Geissler**: I'd like to hear what they have to say. We'll go through the process and hear what is said. [22:32] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: I want to point out to everyone that this has been a lot of hard work to resolve an issue that has been in front of us and pending for quite a while. Is there anyone that wishes to comment on this? Please step forward and state your name and address. [22:59] **Ron Minter**: My name is Ron Minter, M-I-N-T-E-R. I live at 5475 West Arrowhead Road. Now, I'm not going to address any of the issues of pay, staffing, responding to calls, anything like that. What I am going to respond to is, or discuss with you, the need for the Public Safety Officer. Hermantown Fire Department has followed the NFPA standards, your guidelines, as far as teachings and certifications. Back in the late 1980s, Minnesota State Fire Chiefs and Minnesota State Firefighters Association got together and said, "You know what we have to do is we have to train everyone the same." Hermantown was training one way, Rice Lake was training another, Canosia a third. If we get a major incident, we couldn't work together; we had no idea what they were doing. The state comes out and says, "This is what we're going to do." Well, the organizations—the Fire Chiefs and Firefighters Association—they developed the certification board and they go through all the steps in a fire department: Fire Chief, Battalion Chief, Assistant Chief, Captain, Firefighter One, Firefighter Two. Someone had a question about that—Fire Officer One, Fire Officer Two—that's all covered in the state certification board. You have to do training for that, you take a test, and if you pass—and it's a hard pass, you don't go through this thing easy. So realistically, right now in the state of Minnesota, you could ship a Hermantown firefighter as a licensed Firefighter Two to Bloomington, Minnesota, and he could work with those guys down there because they're trained the same. So that's why that came about. [24:45] **Ron Minter**: The certification board does not recognize a "Fire Commander." It doesn't exist in the fire service. Now, I understand that it exists on the police side of law enforcement; they do have their Police Commanders. No such thing as a Fire Commander. If you put this guy in that position, they have training every year. They've got the Fire Chiefs Association—they meet in October, Duluth has hosted every third year—and the Firefighters Association; they all get together and they train. This poor guy is going to be out there like an ugly duckling because he's a "Fire Commander" while the Chiefs are over here. Is it a title? He has a title, but it doesn't exist in the fire service. I agree that a person needs to be in charge of a situation. I apologize if I go over my three minutes, but I'll try to make it fast. Law enforcement—if there's civil disobedience, if there's a riot or something going on, law enforcement goes in there, you've got your Police Chief there, he's in charge. Not a problem. We get a tornado that comes through, we get a Hazmat spill, we get a large fire—you've got the Fire Chief, he's in charge of that situation: EMS, organizing that, mitigating a spill, clean up afterwards if you have to, extricating people from houses—that's the Fire Chief's job. 95 percent of all calls can be mitigated by those two people. Who runs into that 5 percent? The 5 percent would be: who is going to order the new graders or the loaders to come out and clean up after a tornado? Or if we've got crews that are working 24/7 for three days, who's going to buy their food? That comes down to needing your Public Safety Director, and he is you. We haven't had to use them because the fire department when I was in office, we were able to mitigate everything. But if you had a big one, someone's going to have to pay the bill, and that's where the Mayor would come in as far as having a Director of Safety helping a priority come into this situation. That position... I heard some of the recommendations for the qualifications for Fire Chief. If this gentleman has the minimum requirements that you request, there is no doubt in my mind that you would be able to manage and put together a fire department. We've done it before, I'm sure that you'll do it again. And with the help from fire department members now and any council liaison, you could work together with that. You could put them in. My recommendation is: hire that Fire Chief right away. Don't worry about other positions down the road. Are these guys going to walk out December 31st? Seriously, they're going to be there for Hermantown residents' needs, they'll help, and they will help that new Fire Chief come along. Hire them as soon as you can, get them on board, get them trained. Time is short. We still have what, six months, five months to do this? There's qualified people out there and they're more than willing to come up to Hermantown. We had the "Taj Mahal" when we'd go to the Fire Chiefs Association because of our building next door. Questions? None. I didn't do that good of a job? Okay. Well, if you think of any questions afterwards, I'm going to hang around, so please feel free. Thanks. [29:21] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thanks, Chief. Is there any other public input on Resolution 2023-112? [29:43] **Fire Chief Zach Graves**: Zachary Graves, 44-25 Cold Creek Lane. So, I started this process a year ago. Mayor, Chief Crace, and Mr. Mulder—don't promote me yet. We have looked at many different ideas. We started with four ideas. We started with cops running medicals and looked at your attention now to have cops running medicals, which exactly could happen. We did a cost analysis if we hired nine full-time people and looked to the taxpayers of Hermantown—we can't do it. So we have put a lot of time and effort into this, meeting with other different organizations in the cities. The whole thing about the "Fire Commander"—that all came up because of a spot on the org chart to match with police. The guy's going to be called the Fire Chief. He has all the certs for the Fire Chief, but we don't need a Fire Chief that sits and just does management stuff; we need him to run calls during the day because we're trying to do this as close as we can to the volunteer budget that we have now. It's going to be a little bit more. And the other thing that Mr. Minter said about the volunteers being here past January 1st—they can't be. It's all liability insurance. All our insurance is done December 31st. So it's four months; we have to move along. Thank you. [31:10] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Is there anyone else that wishes to comment on this resolution? One last opportunity for public comment on Resolution 2023-112. Okay, we're moving back to Council. Given the information that's been brought to us by the public, are there any questions from Council of staff? [31:47] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Have we run into any situations where a Fire Chief reports to a Director of Public Safety? [31:55] **City Administrator John Mulder**: There are half a dozen examples at least in the state of Minnesota that do that. And in our process, we've looked at that process and we've talked to those departments to see how it works, and we've had positive responses. [32:10] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Yeah, so I guess that what Mr. Minter there mentioned—I think that's what I was recalling as needing a Fire Chief versus a Fire Commander. If that's the major hurdle, I guess, is it just a money issue at that point, hiring a Chief versus a Commander? [32:21] **City Administrator John Mulder**: It might be a title issue. I think the qualifications are the same that we're asking for. [32:27] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: But let's give the other two of you a chance to comment. [32:32] **Councilor John Geissler**: I always go last, and I've got a couple of things to say. I just, first of all, thanks for the citizens that have come forward with their comments. And you know, to me, it always takes passion to come and talk to the Council. You could be doing a lot better things on a sunny Monday night in the summer, but so I appreciate that. We're all inexperienced at this, and we trust that we put the city administration and Chief Crace in charge of this and they've come back with some recommendations. So that's kind of what we've been going with. Yeah, there are other models that Mr. Graves talked about, and certainly, we can't afford nine firefighters. I'm still not quite sure how we're going to afford two, but we'll have to work on that. So I think that if we need a Fire Chief, why can't we call the Commander a Fire Chief? That might help things. We also one thing to consider is that Chief Crace has mentioned retirement not too far down the road. So it might be something that as he retires out, you know, three or four years down the road, we could re-analyze how we're doing service and we'll have a lot of lessons learned along the way. So I'm certainly not here to slow things down, and I want to keep things moving. But I want to make sure we're doing it right, and so I'm just not certain. [34:31] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Mr. Mulder, did I hear you say that there are instances where there is a Fire Chief that reports to a Director of Public Safety? [34:40] **City Administrator John Mulder**: Direct—the notion of a Department of Public Safety is not unique or one-off in Hermantown. Zach can give me these names better than I can remember, but certainly City of Fridley, Lino Lakes—we've talked with other departments that are doing this type of work and this type of organizational model. City of Wyoming. [35:05] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Are any of those Directors of Public Safety also the Chief of Police? [35:09] **City Administrator John Mulder**: Yes. [35:12] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: I guess, can I say one more time before you... I know I've seen a lot about conflict of interest between having a Public Safety Director who's also the Chief of Police. Now, Chief Crace is not here to defend himself tonight, but I would like to go back for those of us who have been here through the whole process: Chief Crace took his opportunity to promote the Police Department for more funds this year in the spring, and he took that time to pound the drum for the Fire Department. So I don't... I just don't foresee the conflict of interest being there as far as from a budgetary standpoint from Chief Crace being the Director of Public Safety. And then also, for those of us who have been here the whole time who have been through all the presentations—we know Chief Crace is on his way out. And I think the whole time the understanding has been that when he does retire, we will revisit this position and have the flexibility then for him to lend his leadership and experience to the new Fire Chief or whatever we title that position, so we can all give that fire department the best chance of success the whole way. Thanks. [36:26] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Not to steal any of your stuff today, but first I want to thank all of my brothers and sisters who do work for the fire service. You're doing something I wouldn't do—I couldn't do. But in this process, we have asked staff to resolve an issue for us that was coming to an end, that we've been notified quite a while ago was going to happen. The current model of fire service in the city cannot be sustained. We've done everything we can over the last 20 years to alter that model and provide support for the volunteer department so that that could continue. I remember working with a lot of people that built that department, including Chief Minter, and wanted to try and have that system survive as long as possible. I believe that staff has come up with probably the most workable solution that can be seen to the problems that are directly in front of us. That doesn't mean they're the same problems that are going to be in front of us in five years or in two years, but they've given us a step to take our current resources and move to the future. It is going to cost more, but to hire full-time 24/7 firefighters would have been cost-prohibitive to the city budget and to the taxpayers. I think that the method that's proposed for the operation of the fire service in Hermantown provides increased quality of service to the residents, it does not decrease quality. I personally, my first year in law enforcement, served on a Public Safety department. Public Safety departments in Minnesota have gone by that name and have gone under several different structures. That one was police and fire doing the same job—police officers were firefighters and vice versa. Those systems did not work. There is too much spreading of resources and it just doesn't work. But to get started, to have a person with public safety administrative experience directing us as we go forward for the next few years to get this into motion, seems the most reasonable alternative that we've looked at so far. We're open to other alternatives and other methods of doing things; they come with pluses and minuses, some of them that we've weighed privately through this process. And while we've directed staff to go forward in their studies, I support the plan that's been put in front of us for the transition to paid firefighters with full-time employees. I know that that's going to change over the years where there will be more full-time employees hired by the city and possibly more hours put in by those paid-on-call people. We had reached a point where everybody was getting worn out by the number of calls. The city will have a chance to administer and prioritize how those calls are handled in the future for the best use of our resources. I think that the title of "Commander" is one that looks to be transitioning from our current Police Department; it's one that police departments have used to replace the word Lieutenant. There may be another title in use statewide for fire services that could more accurately describe or cap off this position, and we will look for that. I don't know if there is such a thing as a Battalion Chief or another administrative title that could be used to describe this position, but the position itself will be a qualified firefighter and qualified to be a Fire Chief. So that person will have all the qualifications needed to serve the City of Hermantown. I'm done if any counselors have any other comments. Roll call please. [40:57] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [40:58] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [40:59] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [41:00] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [41:01] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [41:02] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [41:03] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [41:04] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Thank you all. Now we have Resolution 2023-113, a resolution authorizing and directing the City Administrator to execute and deliver League of Minnesota Cities liability coverage waiver form whereby a city does not waive the monetary limits on the municipal tort liability established by Minnesota Statutes 466.04. Do we have a motion? [41:31] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Motion to approve. [41:32] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Do you have a second? [41:35] **Councilor John Geissler**: Second. [41:36] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor Geissler. Mr. Mulder? [41:38] **City Administrator John Mulder**: So the State of Minnesota limits and caps cities' liabilities for certain insurance issues and tort liability. So you can buy additional insurance for that, but it's recommended by the League of Minnesota Cities that we do not waive that limit, so that that limit would still apply to the City of Hermantown. [42:07] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Any questions or comments from Council? Just one for me: we're moving back into liability coverage from the League of Minnesota Cities, and in the past when we've been served by them for this coverage, we have passed this resolution on a yearly basis. Is there any public comment on this resolution? Is there any public comment on Resolution 2023-113? If anyone wishes to comment on this resolution, please state your name and address. Roll call please. [43:00] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [43:01] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [43:02] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [43:03] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [43:04] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [43:05] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [43:06] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [43:07] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Resolution 2023-114, a resolution receiving preliminary engineering report and calling public hearing for Stebner Farms improvement district. Do we have a motion? [43:24] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Move to approve. [43:26] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Do we have a second? [43:28] **Councilor John Geissler**: Second. [43:29] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor Geissler. Mr. Mulder? [43:31] **City Administrator John Mulder**: So we have had the city engineer develop a feasibility report to put water, sewer, and a road into Stebner Park so that we could promote development both at the back end of the park and along the property next door, which is typically called the Stebner Farms. So maybe David can just kind of explain kind of the findings of the report. [44:03] **David (City Engineering Services)**: Yeah, thank you John. Mayor and Council, so what we look at in this preliminary engineering report were three pieces. One is the water main—and part of the park is already served by water, but the report recommendation is to complete a loop and connect it back to the water main in Maple Grove Road. The second piece is the sanitary sewer. Currently, the two outbuildings that have restrooms in them are served by a low-pressure force main that would not support development, so the report recommendation is to extend this gravity sanitary sewer from Maple Grove Road south along the driveway that exists today. And the third piece of this is to improve what we call the driveway into a public roadway that would have curb, gutter, sidewalk, new storm sewer, and then where it interfaces with the existing parking lot to the Stebner Park, we would make some improvements there for traffic mitigation. [45:03] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Do we have any questions or comments from Council? [45:08] **Councilor John Geissler**: Proactive is good. And if something came up and something falls through, we can always slow this down or stop it. But also, if we're at a certain point, it's always available for any development that could happen in the future. [45:26] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Is there any public input on this resolution? Any public input on Resolution 2023-114? If anybody wishes to comment on this resolution, please state your name and address. Roll call please. [45:51] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [45:52] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [45:53] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [45:54] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [45:55] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [45:56] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [45:57] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [45:58] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Resolution 2023-116, a resolution approving the final pay request for the Haynes Road water main extension project to KTM Paving Incorporated in the amount of $2,120. Do you have a motion? [46:18] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Motion to approve. [46:19] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? [46:21] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Second. [46:22] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor LeBlanc. Mr. Mulder? [46:24] **City Administrator John Mulder**: So this one, 116, is for the Haynes Road final payment for that water extension. 116 is just for that final payment for that work at Haynes and Anderson Road. [46:57] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Any questions from Council? Any public input? Is there any public input on this resolution? Any public input on Resolution 2023-116? Roll call please. [47:22] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [47:23] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [47:24] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [47:25] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [47:26] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [47:27] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [47:28] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [47:29] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. Resolution 2023-115, a resolution approving pay request number one for sewer improvement district number 451 to Wright in the amount of $127,244.33. Is there a motion? [47:49] **Councilor John Geissler**: Motion to approve. [47:50] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Geissler. Do we have a second? [47:53] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Second. [47:54] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor Hjelle. Mr. Mulder? [47:56] **City Administrator John Mulder**: So this is for the work on sewer and road and water improvements on Ugstad Road just north of Anderson Road there. This is their first payment. [48:07] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Thank you. Any questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on this motion? Any public input on Resolution 2023-115? If anyone wishes to comment on this, please state your name and address. Roll call please. [48:35] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Geissler? [48:36] **Councilor John Geissler**: Aye. [48:37] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor Hjelle? [48:38] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Aye. [48:39] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Councilor LeBlanc? [48:40] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc**: Aye. [48:41] **City Clerk Alissa McClure**: Mayor Boucher? [48:42] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Aye. And we don't have a need for a closed session this evening, Mr. Mulder? [48:47] **City Administrator John Mulder**: No. [48:48] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Next, we would entertain a motion to recess. Do we have a motion? [48:52] **Councilor John Geissler**: Motion to recess. [48:54] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Motion by Councilor Geissler. Is there a second? [48:56] **Councilor Andy Hjelle**: Second. [48:57] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Second by Councilor Hjelle. All in favor say aye. [48:59] **City Council**: Aye. [49:00] **Mayor Wayne Boucher**: Opposed? Motion carries.