This transcript for the Apple Valley City Council meeting on March 14, 2024, has been updated with speaker names based on the context provided and the dialogue within the meeting. **Note on Speakers:** While Councilmember Goodwin was not on your provided list, the Mayor repeatedly addresses her by name throughout the meeting; historical records indicate Mary Goodwin was a long-standing member of this council. Other phonetic misspellings in the original transcript (e.g., "Mander" for Melander, "Grindall" for Grendahl) have been corrected in the speaker labels. *** [0:00] [Music] [1:39] **Clint Hooppaw:** all right uh good evening we'll call this meeting to order for the March 14th 2024 Apple Valley city council meeting like to welcome everyone uh for any members of the audience who are signed up to speak when your name is called please approach the podium and address the council the first item on our agenda is the Pledge of Allegiance I would ask everyone to rise and join us in the pledge I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America [2:17] **Clint Hooppaw:** theice all right uh the next item on the agenda is to approve the agenda and Tom do we have any changes this evening [2:23] **Tom Lawell:** Mr Mayor good evening uh only suggestion we have no additional items but we are suggesting that we change the order under our regular agenda items 5A and 5B been the attendees here tonight we'd like to have item 5B go first [2:36] **Clint Hooppaw:** perfect we have a motion to approve the agenda as changed [2:39] **Ruth Grendahl:** so moved [2:41] **John Bergman:** second [2:42] **Clint Hooppaw:** motion from council member Grendahl a second from council member Bergman all in favor indicate by saying I I oppos that carries the next item is our audience participation portion of the meeting this is for items not on the agenda we have a total of 10 minutes for this item anyone who would like to speak all right one last opportunity [3:04] **Clint Hooppaw:** anyone like to speak not we'll close this section and move on to the consent agenda these items are considered routine and won be enacted with a single motion unless a council member or a citizen request to pull an item council members any items you'd like to pull anyone from the audience all right seeing none do we have a motion to approve the consent [3:22] **Tom Melander:** Move [3:23] **Clint Hooppaw:** Motion from council member Melander a second from council member Goodwin all those in favor indicate by saying I I opposed consent items carry and we'll move on to item 5 b uh which is to present some certificates of appreciation for outstanding volunteer service and Tom Lawell is going to take us through this [3:53] **Tom Lawell:** one Mr mayor council good evening again it is an honor to be able to do an event such says this uh Apple Valley has been very fortunate to have a number of citizens that come forward and assist us with the many citizens advisory committees and commissions that that you have put into place and uh when some of those folks decide that uh it's time to retire uh we certainly don't want to let them get away without thanking them for the the years of service that they have put in uh tonight we have uh a member of our Parks and Recreation advisory committee and a member of our Planning Commission that have decided that uh it's time for them to retire uh Brent Schultz has been uh our Parks committee uh member um for quite a while for almost for 14 years served as his as his [4:39] **Tom Lawell:** chair since 2017 so that's a good long while and he has been a consistent voice in uh helping to improve our Park and Recreation system uh certainly we had the park Bond referendum here recently and certainly was a major driver and uh making certain that the planning effort that went into that was uh done well and done successfully Keith Dickman from our Planning Commission uh his resignation happened because of work circumstances but he had served on the Planning Commission for over 18 years and uh during that time A lot has happened in the city in the way of development I had the opportunity to work with uh chair Melander for many years as well uh so just a key contributor to uh development in our city had the because of that that tenure he actually was involved in two comprehensive plan [5:25] **Tom Lawell:** cycles that we do every 10 years so he was certainly part of that and uh just his thoughtful contributions to our city have just been uh been amazing so uh we can't let these two get away without uh a suitable farewell and mayor I think you have some certificates to uh to present [5:43] **Clint Hooppaw:** we absolutely do so we have um should we just bring them up one at a time what do you think what do you think one at a time the spotlight I'd like to make some comments yeah well let's get the certificates out and then we will we'll absolutely do that so Brent why don't you come on up you can bring whoever you like bring your trophy [6:12] [Laughter] [6:14] **Clint Hooppaw:** wife for the years of service and dedication to Apple Valley May let's do this let's I don't want to be this picture by myself over here want to SC down here the photographer says let's go yeah come on down we'll get we'll get [6:41] **Clint Hooppaw:** some here I'm gonna we got to get this posted note off the organizational stuff out of the picture good when you're squishing me excellent all right thank you thank [Applause] huh well I don't know I'm thinking about joining well with trophy you sure you don't want to stick around 14 [7:28] **Clint Hooppaw:** years don't go too far guys we have another one to do thank you as well for the service thanks thank you very much for everything thank you want to go that way not you're not leaving because you have a crabby Planning Commission chair no no [Laughter] no right thank thank [8:18] **Clint Hooppaw:** you I know we had at least one council member who might want to share a few words and then guys if you have anything to share invite you up to to certainly share any comments as well so Council Melander I know you had something you wanted to to share [8:32] **Tom Melander:** absolutely I I've had a special connection with both of these gentlemen uh Brent is a former nextdoor neighbor uh for a number of years and uh I got to know him both socially and and professionally um I know he was very active with the uh Park and wreck department and uh he's a thoughtful uh involved guy that he would uh step up and and uh shoulder the responsibility for uh it's always tough to find people that are willing to volunteer for anything and and he did it for a long time and he was the same way in the neighborhood concerned with the way [9:04] **Tom Melander:** things looked and the way things operated uh the care of Lake Alimagnet where we both used to live U I had a lot of respect for the way he he operated and uh now Mr. Dickman uh I served with him on the Planning Commission for a long time and uh Keith is a special guy in his own way as well uh he's a successful business person uh he told me he was wooed by his current employer for quite a while before he finally went with him but I always found Keith to be extremely thoughtful and careful considered with his opinions and and uh and voicing them in in in a very reasoned sort of way uh was a terrific asset for planning I see [9:49] **Tom Melander:** some other planning Commissioners come to support him and uh it's always really nice to see I missed my time on planning it was a great experience and I think we still have a vacancy so uh I'm hoping that somebody would would step up because my own experience it was terrific and it was it was good stuff and and I miss it so thanks to both of you so much [10:13] **Clint Hooppaw:** yeah thank you thank you any any words of wisdom to share with us as you uh move on to other things [10:20] **Brent Schultz:** Bo that's trails to you well truly you uh whether it's Parks whether it's planning you kind of become [10:35] **Brent Schultz:** the right the first interaction either our residents or our businesses or developers have with Apple Valley at least in this kind of setting right starts with staff often and then kind of makes its way through and um sets the tone for I think as people are happy as they come in right do we have a good relationship and do we represent everybody so uh that's a lot of hours in some ways more hours than we put in on a project by the time you work your way through it it's always entertaining to go back watch those meetings and kind of flush out the comments and we get the feedback here and next time we get here we get to a better meeting and a better decision so thank you all [11:13] **Clint Hooppaw:** thanks council member Goodwin [11:15] **Councilmember Goodwin:** well we should also remember that Mr Dickman put up with uh chairman Melander for years too was that pretty [11:21] **Keith Dickman:** tough never did Master Robert's Rules of Order right at [11:27] **Clint Hooppaw:** thank you uh both we appreciate your service so uh Tom we talked about uh council member Melander mentioned openings I think tomorrow is our deadline is that correct for anybody who might be interested in serving [11:41] **Tom Lawell:** it is indeed mayor uh the opportunity for citizens to apply for service on the Park and Recreation Commission or committee as well as the Planning Commission is tomorrow at 4:30 I believe so they can come in uh you can get an application on our City's website and they should be returned to our city clerk's office [11:59] **Clint Hooppaw:** great thank you all right thank you guys appreciate it you feel free to stick around for the next item this might be interesting for Planning Commission if nothing else uh but also don't feel obligated to sit through the [12:06] **Clint Hooppaw:** next item either if you don't choose so uh with that we'll move on to um to uh the next item if you guys want to leave feel free and we'll just pause for a second let the room kind of settle thank you guys take care hey Tom Tom you might want this this is back here this is oh do we sitting back [Music] here good [Music] point oh that's a good clear picture W that is a very clear picture huh that is a good picture um Charles so Tom we've got the uh a resolution discussing some of the [12:52] **Clint Hooppaw:** proposed legislation that's coming forward so with that I will just turn it over to you [12:58] **Tom Lawell:** thank you mayor yes uh this is an item uh that kind of follows on to a conversation the city council had back in February with our legislators of course the legislative session is underway at the state capital uh there are a lot of bills that are being introduced and we try to watch those as carefully as we can trying to see those that might impact our city certainly the league of Minnesota cities is a great resource for us they keep us apprised Metro cities another group Municipal legislative commission so this is a busy time of year trying to understand what is happening at the capital and things that we either are in favor of opposed to or uh just trying to learn more about uh tonight we wanted to come to you specifically on some items that are related to housing and uh some [13:38] **Tom Lawell:** legislation that's been become known as the missing middle housing bill so I'd like to kind of walk through kind of where the session has been so far it is evolving quickly um in fact some of the the things that were written in the memo to you last week have probably changed since uh it was written so I'll keep you give you an update on where we're at with that and then uh just some uh some concerns that we have as a city about how this would change some of the planning that we have done in our community and really kind of take us and many other cities throughout the metro area and throughout the state uh in a direction that none of us really ever intended uh through our land use planning efforts and comprehensive planning efforts so uh just some some background uh there is certainly a concern over the lack of housing a lot of people in the state have said we just [14:23] **Tom Lawell:** don't have enough housing to accommodate uh the need that's out there especially in the affordable housing area uh so that kind of drove the the conversation uh resulted in the introduction of many bills this session that are on this this topic and as we read them many of them just go too far and result in the loss of local control for cities such as Apple Valley and there's some far-reaching consequences that would come if these were to be enacted so some bills that were introduced along the way uh some of these are still active some of these are not but just to kind of give you a flavor of what uh what we've been watching here this session uh house file 4009 um and Senate file 3964 uh one from St Louis Park authored one from uh from Woodbury uh all bills [15:10] **Tom Lawell:** that make their way through the legislature have a a companion in both the house and in the Senate so that's why these bills have multiple numbers the uh this legislation would basically replace City Zoning and land use Authority with a rigid Statewide framework that would in this case was going to remove public input in the residential development process that actually has now changed I'll get to that in a little bit some of these things that we saw early on were certainly of a concern uh bill would ignore the long range comprehensive plans that cities have put into place uh would undermine our land use zoning and land use uh regulatory structure and we would think to the detriment of health safety and Welfare of our residents and uh also the the densification that would [15:55] **Tom Lawell:** come with some of these uh bills really doesn't take into account the infrastructure that the city has in the ground so that was uh one set of bills another one uh this was a multif family residential development bill that would restrict cities from uh regulatory actions regarding parking Aesthetics and other requirements related for multifamily residential developments I'll Define that term here in just a little bit uh would also allow multi-residential developments into any property that wasn't zoned industrial or agriculture so we have a lot of business commercial property and unfortunately this one still uh re is being retained with the current law that's being considered so we'll talk more a little bit about that one uh more limits on [16:42] **Tom Lawell:** zoning Authority here was one uh that uh had broad limits on the design standards and other aesthetic requirements that the city might have uh would prohibit cities from having minimum square footage requirements or What's called the floor area ratio requirements another one called the legalize a Housing Act would have mandatory upzoning on single family lots and you'll see that that's now still retained so what what happened new this week so many of these bills have now been combined into a package uh Senate file 1370 uh sponsored by Senator Port out of Burnsville uh this is what's called a delete all Amendment uh kind of started over grabbed pieces of all the bills that I just summarized and turned [17:27] **Tom Lawell:** it into what they call the first engrossment and so that's the the bill that is now active that's carrying being the vehicle basically for uh all of these topics on housing uh single family zoning under this bill would basically be eliminated Statewide to accommodate with they're terming middle Zone middle housing cities would have to choose at least six types of residential buildings other than single family that would be allowed on a residential single family lot so what do those mean Well Middle housing is being defined as duplexes triplexes fourplexes five plexes Sixplexes Town Homes stacked Flats Courtyard Apartments and cottage housing these are all terms that are defined in the proposed legislation so I'm going to [18:13] **Clint Hooppaw:** just just Clarity I know the answer to this right we talk about single family lots and I think you might read this think well we're talking about new construction single family lots but we're not talking about just new construction single family lots correct [18:27] **Tom Lawell:** a good point that this is not just a new subdivision that would come into town this would be all existing single family lots so the elimination of Statewide single family zoning would apply to pre-existing neighborhoods in the community so all of the things that I'm going to talk about here would be existing Lots as well as New Lots that would be created good point uh in addition something called accessory dwelling units would also be allowed they could be attached or or attached or detached and that would be allow on every residential [19:02] **Tom Lawell:** lot cities would have to allow at least two housing units on all residential lots and at least four units on lots that are within a half a mile of a major Transit stop so with our Cedar Avenue busway in place uh that provision would apply to certain areas of our city based on its proximity to Transit cities would even be forced to allow more units per lot based on a few other factors s uh this would get you to 3 to eight units per lot and they are based on things such as is the home going to be all electric and energy efficient so basically you get bonus units if you have units that are all electric and are not relying on gas and [19:48] **Tom Lawell:** the other term would be affordable and they Define affordable and you get extra units for that and then if you have both all electric and affordable that's how you would get up to 8 units per single family lot in terms of parking cities could not require off street parking for units that are located within a half a mile of that major Transit stop and could only require one off Street Parking Spot per unit everywhere else in in town so that new unit that might come in that might have three or four people living in it would only be the city could only require one parking spot off the street which certainly is a concern with uh based on how we have handled parking in our community over time and cities would be required to [20:34] **Tom Lawell:** establish minimum per lot size of 4,000 square ft for all of those units that I just described So currently our typical minimum lot size would be around 11,000 square ft in plan developments and other uh areas that we've developed we have been less than that but we have never been down as far as 4,000 square ft uh for a single family lot in this case it would would be a single family lot that is forced to accommodate many more higher density units as well uh so let's talk about that was middle housing let's talk about multif family housing multif family housing is a building that would have more than eight units in it uh that would be allowed in any mixed use any multifam [21:20] **Tom Lawell:** and any commercial zoning district and I'll show a map here shortly about where we consider our commercial zoning District but by right uh apartment buildings would be allowed to be built in any property that we have zoned and guided for commercial use cities could not impose height requirements on multif family development less than the tallest commercial or residential building a quarter mile away or the maximum height allowed in the code whichever is greater so for instance uh the probably the tallest commercial building we have is the wings building I think in that zone the building can be as high as 100 ft uh this would allow a a residential building an apartment building to be as high as that if it were within that quarter mile [22:07] **Tom Lawell:** spacing uh and if you have if you're putting up a multifam housing building that has affordable units you get bonus height another up to 35 ft Beyond whatever that first one required there is a section that it's intriguing it's a little confusing but I just want to make sure the council is aware because I think this language has changed as the bills have gone on there's an alternative density plan that would be allowed a municipality that adopt zoning controls prior to June 30th of 2025 that would allow for residential construction leading to an increase in density of more than 100% in single family zones as permitted uses is not subject to the requirements of this section so there's an alternate provided [22:53] **Tom Lawell:** but how that would be implemented and how you would actually get to those numbers uh is hard to Phantom so that c that language could be changed as we go on but that's the current language in the bill that surfaced here this week so a list of concerns and I've maybe touched on a few as we went but it definitely would restrict local government zoning and land use Authority it would significantly affect the character of our existing single family neighborhoods by allowing two to eight units on every residential lot in our city both pre-existing and new it would reduce the minimum lot size to 4,000 ft which would force even more units onto ever smaller Parcels it would eliminate the aesthetic standards and greatly reduce the parking requirements and would require cities to accept [23:40] **Tom Lawell:** accessory dwelling units on all residential lots regardless of their size and just a reminder I mean Land Development within the city is Guided by the city's comprehensive plan it's a 10-year cycle that all cities in the metro area go through and it's it takes multiple years to prepare a comprehensive plan has many chapters involving all aspects of the services that we provide and the U the utilities that we provide it's very well done it's very uh inclusive it involves the community it involves many other partners and unfortunately you know this would uh would pretty much overrule things that we have in our comprehensive plans so the the citizens that were involved in our comprehensive planning the community and the business organizations school [24:25] **Tom Lawell:** district is part of that with demographics they they face a lot of their needs from an educational standpoint standpoint based on the comprehensive planning that cities do in terms of the development that's going to come and the number of students that will be generated out of that development and all of these comprehensive plans are submitted to and approved by the Metropolitan Council so we have a firm basis and we have an approved basis of what a comprehensive plan looks in our community and this would pretty much overturn our comp plan and would jeopardize our long-term planning efforts I mention here specifically infrastructure so our road Network our water mains our sewer Mains our storm Water Management Systems all of those are sized appropriately to handle the development that we've set forth in the comprehensive plan and if that [25:12] **Tom Lawell:** development turns out to be something else something much more dense than we anticipated then all of those plans would need to be redrawn to make certain that uh we don't have inadequately sized lines to handle that type of development all of that would come at a cost to the city to do that and there are no funding mechanisms within it in this bill that would help to cover those costs and just to point out the legislation places no limits on the number of units a given Community would be forced to add so once the rules would be reset and the developers who do housing would begin to figure out how this could play out in any particular City there is no cap that you when you say you're done with the with the densification effort uh this would be without limit under the current [26:00] **Tom Lawell:** legislation so here's a map of our comprehensive plan land use map and uh for those not familiar with these types of maps the predominant land use in our city is single family housing uh shows up as yellow on the map uh the area that is shown in red is the commercial District of the city we're all familiar with cedar in 42 and a lot of the development that goes down County Road 42 to the East and then another node of commercial development down on Pilot Knob uh in the cobblestone area so these are the areas that would be impacted uh by this legislation uh this is the comprehensive plan land use map this is what we call the zoning map that helps to implement the provisions of the comprehensive plan again you can see the vast majority of our city is single family zoning and all of those [26:46] **Tom Lawell:** lots identified there would be subject to the requirements of this legislation were it to pass uh a few more concerns concerned about the environmental harm that might be caused by this added density will generate more impervious surface impervious surface results in more storm water runoff the systems need to be able to handle that we have an extensive Pond system throughout our city the council is well aware that we have been having to make storm water improvements over the course of time because those regulations have become more and more strict over time and so this would obviously if it were to carry out and build a lot of additional units in our city uh would certainly add to the storm water contribution that we need to then handle and uh and [27:32] **Tom Lawell:** treat so there are cost impacts related to increased densities over time which could result in in tax increases and as I indicated would allow multif family buildings in all the commercial zones and why is that a problem well we have guided that land for commercial uses for a reason and we have been attempting to build our tax base as well as our job sector the goal has been to add as many head of household jobs to the community as we can if we can have a good connection between the number of jobs in our community and as well as the number of people that live here we can match those up better uh that is better planning people will not have to commute as far to work if they could live and work in the same Community uh our ratio of jobs [28:18] **Tom Lawell:** to Residents is pretty low at this point and so the comprehensive plan calls out a goal of trying to increase the number of jobs in our community uh to help get get that more on par so this this legislation would certainly affect our ability to carry out that goal so what's next um Senate file 1370 was heard in the Senate housing and homelessness prevention committee this week it passed out of that U as the this new amendment has been proposed and it's been referred to the Senate state and local government and veterans committee um the bill is not yet scheduled for a hearing but they really only schedule out about a week so it could come up very shortly thereafter uh worth noting that our local Senator Aaron McQuade is [29:05] **Tom Lawell:** is a member of that committee so people have contacts they can make to share their thoughts with her that would be great uh there is a companion bill in the house 1667 uh that bill is sitting in the house Housing Finance and policy committee don't see any hearings uh scheduled for that one either so what's uh for tonight so the council was uh provided last week um or I guess Monday uh but the resolution was written last week uh to oppose specifically housing house file 4009 and Senate file 3964 we knew that things were going to be changing so the resolution was actually amended uh late on Friday to include similar bills and that's kind of [29:50] **Tom Lawell:** what's happened here is that we now have a number of similar bills that are advancing so the resolution uh we still think is raises valid points uh there is a an attachment to the resolution that outlines even more concerns similar to what I had here and uh what we're really trying to do is to to let our community know of the impact that this type of legislation could have on the community uh everyone who purchased into a particular neighborhood did so based on what they saw there and we just want to make certain that everyone whether they like this Provisions in the bill or dislike the provisions in the bill that they're at least aware of what potentially could happen here and would encourage citizens to uh to reach out to our legislative delegation and let them know their thoughts here um these are the three folks who uh do a good job [30:37] **Tom Lawell:** representing our city we've uh have a good relationship with all of them we've had them into visit with the city council and uh I think local control is something that most of them voiced uh affirmation towards when they were here back in in February and we just want to make certain that uh they and representing our city hear from our residents about what they think about the particular bill so uh I know this will change as time goes on this may not be the final Language by a long shot I think even Senator Port from Burnsville the chief author of the Senate side has indicated that this this language will continue to evolve and we would encourage them to do that to evolve it in such a way that doesn't uh do all of those negative things that that we've identified here so with that uh open for [31:24] **Clint Hooppaw:** discussion Melander [31:26] **Tom Melander:** um where do you start yeah first of all these are my opinions and not speaking for anybody else on Council um maybe I'm not even speaking as a council member but uh my initial thought was uh there's no doubt that marijuana is now legal uh these are these are incredible um I have never been a fan of the We Know Better Than You Know attitude of government or really in any situation in life and to have this uh thrown out blanket for the whole state uh removing [32:11] **Tom Melander:** local Authority on many levels is unconscionable it's an egregious violation of of representation of the people and and people's right to represent themselves and making their own decisions uh it's it's government overreach um uh there's a there's a law of unintended consequences and this is just full of them and uh Noble uh Noble aspirations to solve this problem for for the poor folks that need a place to live uh it it can have it can blow up and you can't undo this kind of stuff it's it's uh it's beyond comprehension that that who [32:59] **Tom Melander:** cooked this stuff up and and voiced this as as as as a noble uh humanitarian gesture it's it it's unbelievable I I'm stunned that that this could have gotten this far and and received any Credence and any any support from anybody that bothered to think about it at all that's enough [33:23] **Clint Hooppaw:** council member Bergman [33:38] **John Bergman:** thanks mayor um council member Melander and I came off the uh Planning Commission to sit in this seat and to see what has taken place from the time I left planning to come here is is I think an insult to our community um we were [33:47] **John Bergman:** fortunate enough last week council member Goodwin um Mr uh benetti from Economic Development and myself um went to the state capital and and went to what they call the nation Minnesota League of cities there was in council member Goodwin can correct me if I'm wrong but there was probably 260 people in an auditorium um we were afforded the opportunity to meet with our elected officials that you saw administrator Lawell put up on the screen um of those one said they did not have time for us and at that point I was to the point where you know what um one of [34:33] **John Bergman:** the most major things that are happening to our city which this city and the past representatives of the city have done an outstanding job doing and setting the what we think is a great City and we've done I firmly believe from the start when I moved in here and not being on any committees they had done it right and for a representative that did not want to take time um because they were too busy to meet with their local reps and they live in this city is was very appalling to me um I have requested that before this stuff gets voted that all three of those reps are in an informal with us the two that met with us um gave us half hour of their time um it was encouraging but yet [35:21] **John Bergman:** very cautiously optimistic as far as this goes so as of right now this is scary um but it is to the point where um I hope everybody in the general public as and as well as you folks that sit on committees um send messages to your representatives that you do not like it um I would ask um U administrator Lawell um the bill as it originally was dated was opposed by certain groups Tom I'll let you explain that and or that are opposed to this like we are but there are also would you explain who really is really behind some of this drive and it's not necessarily a lot of elected officials but other things that take [36:08] **John Bergman:** place if he would state that please [36:10] **Tom Lawell:** sure Mr Mayor council member Bergman um the advocacy on behalf of the bill uh has grown over time uh last legislative session there was a lot of discussion around affordable housing specifically and that the size of that group that was supportive was the certain size uh because the bill has been expanded to not just include affordable housing but all types of housing I think the size of the supporters is actually growing so obviously those who are advocates for affordable housing are certainly on board those who are Builders the builders housing Builder housing first organization in the city or in the state of Minnesota has come out in favor of this uh the Minnesota Chamber of [36:53] **Tom Lawell:** Commerce has come out in favor of this amazing um this housing would potentially allow more workers to come into the state of Minnesota which might be a good thing long term for for businesses um faith-based groups are in favor the Sierra Club has come out in favor uh AARP has come out in favor um so expansion of opportunities and choice I think is uh one that uh is certainly captured attention from those that think that uh more housing would eventually perhaps draw down the price of housing and make it more affordable for everyone I would say that those ideas are are theories at this point not proven U I would think that developers who will be building this [37:39] **Tom Lawell:** housing will be the ones who will look at the market conditions and will decide what it is they wish to build and uh if it if they can make a more of a return on 4,000 squ foot lots and build more expensive homes on those small Lots obviously their rate of return will be better so for different PE for different reasons there are a number of different Advocates that have lined up in favor of this particular package of bills [38:15] **John Bergman:** can I add comment go go ahead now we'll on and and you heard that the uh Minnesota Chamber of Commerce is in in favor of this administrator Lawell we have uh a Chamber of Commerce in this city um Ed Kerney runs it would you like to acknowledge what [38:24] **Tom Lawell:** Mr mayor council member Bergman I have had the opportunity to discuss this item with um the president of the Apple Valley Chamber of Commerce Ed Carney and I believe council member Goodwin has as well um I believe his personal opinion is he does not agree that the the bill will be a good thing for Apple Valley but I will leave to him to uh to go on record if he wishes to about uh what his thoughts are on the bill [38:59] **John Bergman:** I'd appreciate him being here sometime thanks [39:03] **Ruth Grendahl:** council member Grendahl and then council member Goodwin thank you Madame mayor first of all a little side with the chambers I mean to give up business land I I I I don't understand that for housing I I just doesn't I can't correlate but that was my point so we have a regional government on the Metropolitan Council [39:11] **Ruth Grendahl:** and Apple Valley hits our goals or targets for affordable housing all the time don't we so we're already in this city being proactive to do these things and now we're being told different criteria we've been working under comprehensive plan plans and and making sure we meet our our targets um so I I find it just unbelievable [39:41] **Clint Hooppaw:** thank you council member Goodwin [39:46] **Councilmember Goodwin:** well I agree with all the other council members I when this when this first came out I was just astounded let me just give you one example of what can happen this is for the audience out there watching and I wish our press was here they're not which I don't understand [39:58] **Councilmember Goodwin:** if you live in a single family neighborhood right now A lot of people do I lived in Palomino Hills for 21 years in a single family neighborhood when my children left I downsized because I didn't need five bedrooms and I'm now in a Town Home Association and we have plenty of those out here and plenty of duplexes and plenty of other things but what people don't understand I'm just going to put it very simply if you own a single family home in Apple Valley and you're in this very nice single family neighborhood where you got a neighbor on each side with a single family home they got a backyard and everything looks nice if this law [40:46] **Councilmember Goodwin:** passes your neighbor without any any input at all from your local city council could build an sixplex or an eight Plex on that piece of property is it as high as an eight Plex or my exagger or six FX [40:53] **Tom Lawell:** Mr May council member Goodwin um given the the added bonus I will call it if you have affordable housing and if you have an all electric house you can on a single family lot get to eight units one thing that has changed from the original Bill language to now is that the portion that had eliminated the ability of the the city council to vote on that has been removed so it could come through the [41:32] **Tom Lawell:** Planning Commission it could come through the city council it will not be an administrative decision like the earlier Bill language had included in there the current version does not say what it used to say by eliminating that kind type of public involvement so people will have an opportunity but unfortunately they would come to the Planning Commission they would come to the council and the answer would be the state law requires us to allow this eight unit building in that a particular location so they would come to us and we could say gee W I'm sorry there's nothing we can do [42:15] **Councilmember Goodwin:** that's precisely the case I am this is my own personal view now if I were a state senator or state representative who lived in Downtown Minneapolis maybe I could support [42:18] **Councilmember Goodwin:** something like that but if I were a state senator or a state representative that lived in a city that had significant amount a single family zoning I cannot understand how any of them could even begin to think that this is a good idea I don't understand it and I don't know what we do about the next issue how don't how we get the word out to people we have people in the audience tonight that are hearing this stuff for the first time tomorrow they can go home and send an email to their register to their legislators if they want but you know a lot of people just don't pay any attention to the news or anything how do we get this news out to the public again I'm very disappointed that [43:03] **Councilmember Goodwin:** our press is not here tonight very disappointed it's the most ungodly thing I've ever heard um I've had many many years on the city council and we do a lot of important things we set budgets we buy police cars and fire trucks and we build fire stations and police stations and we do all this good public safety stuff and we plow snow and we do all those the most important thing I've ever done as a city council member is to be a person that's involved in the zoning in my community so we could set certain parts of the city for single family certain parts for multif family certain parts for commercial and [43:49] **Councilmember Goodwin:** I am just astounded by this thing especially when I look at the fact that the legislature most of them live in places where there's a lot of single families now there's some things as you probably well know there's some some efforts to have certain population levels not included in this it started with cities up to 5,000 then it was 10 and there was an effort up to a 100 well I guess it was up to 100 I wouldn't worry about it but I am just amazed at this I just have absolutely no idea what the legislators who live in cities with single family zoning are thinking about if they support this bill I have no idea at all thank you very [44:36] **Councilmember Goodwin:** much mayor [44:37] **Clint Hooppaw:** thank you council member Bergman [44:40] **John Bergman:** thanks mayor um and I don't know since the bills have changed administrator Lawell um but when we were at the Minnesota League of cities um and I mentioned who was there in this panel on this panel was one of the sponsors of SF uh 3964 in the audience um comments were directed no comments were directed to the petitioners but the petitioners got to say why they sponsored a certain Bill and out of this one comment from the sponsor of 3964 stated [45:21] **John Bergman:** that their sister could not find affordable housing and that there was restrictions in the area that this sister was looking at the next comment that came out of the mouth was this my sister moved to went to Lake Elmo now remember the word affordable housing bought two acres of land in Lake Elmo to build a house that's the honest to God quote you hear his comments the audience went kind of you got to be kidding me and again you you've heard it you all [46:08] **John Bergman:** know you know what's the price point at what affordable housing is I know Lake Elmo hasn't that really nice restaurant I know their land is expensive but okay if you're looking in my opinion if you're looking for affordable housing yeah you want to keep the house down but I don't believe your very first thing you do is go buy two acres of land I think you'd find a smaller lot to do this so that's really um one of the things I took away is is where do these people live um that represent these these communities um as of now I'm still I shake right now just thinking of what what could really happen to this community and I think it would be a shame so that's what I what that's [46:53] **John Bergman:** what's out there folks thanks John [46:57] **Clint Hooppaw:** council member Goodwin [47:11] **Councilmember Goodwin:** well this gives you an example of a person that the person that council member Bergman is talking about was a lady who is a state senator from Woodbury which is a beautiful city full of a lot of homes a lot of them Val between one half a million and a million dollars and she made this statement now she'd been from downtown St Paul or downtown duth or downtown Minneapolis who lived in an apartment or a in downtown and she made this statement about her sister I guess I could understand it but here's the crazy thing Woodbury is a very expensive Community it's not [47:40] **Councilmember Goodwin:** nearly as expensive as Lake Elmo and how she could come out with this outrageous statement but my point is this is a brand new state senator this lady brand new she's got elect to the state senate she has no idea what's going on in our own City I mean if people understood that their neighborhoods could be destroyed destroyed I think they'd be very upset my problem is how do we get this information to the people we're on television that's fine I hope our local news picks it up I hope they pick it up on TV news I hope they pick it up in the Star Tribune the Pioneer Press and all the rest but this [48:26] **Councilmember Goodwin:** could happen and if it happens because it's a short legislative session it only goes through what may we got six weeks left six weeks left this thing could pass before most of the people in the state of Minnesota even knows it's happening [48:47] **Clint Hooppaw:** council member Bergman then we'll move on to the resolution [48:58] **John Bergman:** thanks and one of the comments that I've I made to our Representatives that we got to meet with is you know as us as elected officials we we generally um do the homework and do the check and balance and make sure what the residents want that's what and and this and and this is what we're about that's why you have a council right right so we that's but where I'm going with this is [49:13] **John Bergman:** I asked the two that we met with have you done this survey have you sent out surveys to your residents to get their opinions versus it's strictly it's strictly on your own on your your own Merit you've heard me say this before um I I had great people that that got me in the right direction I firmly believe and and being on the Planning Commission on the city council I says you check yourself at the door every day you come in this building and again you have to it's not about you or about me it's it's about what your residents do and I think the general population that are elected officials right now at the state of Minnesota are not checking the checking who who is what the people of [49:59] **John Bergman:** their communities want and I think that's again this Council and the past councils in Apple Valley have always done that and I and I and we've done what we think is necessary for the growth of this community because we've really since Co we've expanded in this city looks magnificent but we could go in a different direction here in the next seven weeks so thanks and I'm done [50:23] **Clint Hooppaw:** thanks every for the comments thanks uh Tom and John for making the day at the capital and Tom for you I know I don't know how many hours you put into going back and forth and reading different versions of legislation before we jump on to the the miss to the mission to the uh um to the action item um council Melander you said it Noble mission right I mean I've I got myself [50:46] **Clint Hooppaw:** through college building houses literally swinging a hammer right most of my professional career has been in either financing homes to individuals helping first-time home buyers get into homes financing apartment buildings trying to make those things as affordable as possible so I understand the I understand where we're coming from right we have not created enough housing units as a Metro since the 08-09 downturn we that industry stopped and we never caught up and all those years we've had net in migration so we're we're not keeping up right we're not keeping household creation there is nothing in this bill I'm a data guy right there's nothing in this bill or any of these that tells me any of this solves an affordability problem that that's the gap for me if you could tell me that allowing these would drive units down we [51:34] **Clint Hooppaw:** have a theory that says more supply is going to drive price down I don't know that I agree with that in this context right I don't know that we're going to do that we have seen nearly a thousand units of housing go in around our Central Village area and Rental um Apple Valley is still sitting at a sub 2% multif family vacancy rate right now um ironically I just read an article um three buildings in central business district of Minneapolis apartment buildings built in 18 and 19 have recently traded at 70 to 75% of what it cost to build them in 18 and 19 what what's that tell me different communities are driving out those units are available they're not getting filled there so what problem are we really solving I don't think we're solving that [52:19] **Clint Hooppaw:** with this one um infrastructure cost Tom you mentioned it if we have to replace a mile of roadway right I mean big deal right you got to replace a few things a mile roadway is going to run you somewhere between 5 and 10 million to replace if we have to deal with that infrastructure um there's a 60-day provision in this meaning you bring your project in so let's say we take an office building that's on 147th we say that's going to be Apartments we're going to now put 300 bathrooms in there can we handle it I don't know that today but I have 60 days to make a decision on whether we're going to be able to handle that infrastructure cost or not so even some of the timing that in here even the rest this goes that timing doesn't work I don't have time to make that decision um through there um so that's an issue [53:05] **Clint Hooppaw:** um talk about Community input and I would say meaningful Community input um this bill while legislative session just started I will guarantee you this thing's been cooking since the end of the last legislative session with no public input right so now we have this compressed time frame um I'm glad we took out the Banning public input right that feels better but if I can't do anything with it what do I have right I'm glad you got a chance to hear you have your voice heard I can just come turn the camera on you can go talk to the camera if you'd like please repeat that the this bill would ban public this this bill does not Cur say that again this bill the the delete all Amendment remove the section that baned public input however the provisions are still baked into law so [53:50] **Clint Hooppaw:** you're right I I I can go through my hearing process I still have to get all those done in 60 days if we're or it's just approved on it's on on there's the application so yes you have input it's meaningless right so anyway I don't I don't know where I'm going with that I would also say this is not the only Bill that's out there right while we're talking about this specific one today because of the impact this is not the only Bill out there that takes away local control there's one on uh where homeless shelters can and can't go there's there's a couple others that that are out there that uh do the same thing just maybe there not quite such a big impact so um pay attention great I think that's the the thing reach out whether you're for it or against it I don't care reach out and have a conversation legislators need to hear from us um I've shared with them that [54:36] **Clint Hooppaw:** they're going to hear it one way or another right you open up to hear it now or you're going to you got an election year this year right every every member the house is up for election this year they're going to have to hear it when they get in the neighborhoods and so do you want to hear it now or do you want to hear it when you have a chance to do something about it so anyway not sure where I'm going with all of that other than uh we're rushing another piece of legislation through that is likely have some needed fixes and right now honestly we're not fixing the ones we did last year either so we're kind of stacking up some problems with that we have uh a resolution in front of us opposing the proposed legislation and similar bills and I would make a motion to adopt that resolution so I have a motion from me in a second from council member Melander um all those in favor indicate by saying I [55:23] **Clint Hooppaw:** I opposed that carries and we'll get that off Tom thank you again for your work on this one [55:40] **Councilmember Goodwin:** Mr Mayor may I make one point here last year we had people coming into their Chambers so upset that we passed legalizing marijuana we had nothing to do with it so people are going to come to us and start saying there's a house being built behind me we didn't do it [55:54] **Clint Hooppaw:** I want to just give you an example not to go back to the subject but where this works right in Planning Commission you sat through this we talked about the the old par three Golf Course right and and right there was a lot of back and forth there was a lot of passion in there but we got to a spot that worked for developer right we created more housing units that maybe what we would have liked originally not as many as maybe the developer wanted we had something [56:09] **Clint Hooppaw:** that fit within the neighborhood we had something that the roadways could accommodate and we end up with a good product u i we're not going be able to do that under this so that's why you have planning and zoning laws that's why you have planning commissions that's why you have City councils [56:32] **Councilmember Goodwin:** we also we also a really good chance to talk to everybody who was impacted including the developer in who might want to buy homes and including those who were going to be impacted by what went on around them so we don't want to lose that [56:45] **John Bergman:** and if I may comment to your comment in referring to the golf course that Golf Course had could have had 40 more Lots put on it might it could have been fivestory apartment buildings over the whole thing but what was put on slot it work 40 Lots less makes a huge difference and it's and it's really nice just imagine [56:57] **John Bergman:** all the work that planning staff um did to get to what they have today over there that that's called true work and true dedication um we go under the this new rule if it all passes through you could have gone and had those extra lots and and had everything jammed in your like sardines so all right thanks everybody we'll move on to staff and Council Communications and Tom I know or Tom and Ruth I know you have an update from your your recent uh trip so Ruth I'll just turn it over to you and you can go where you want to go [57:38] **Ruth Grendahl:** thank you well I just came back from the national league of cities and I'm going to try and summarize 5 days probably in about five minutes um so I have the privilege of serving as a national league of City's energy environment and natural resources chair I was a position that I was recruited for and when I show the [57:44] **Ruth Grendahl:** pictures it reflects all of us up here it reflects staff um first of all um it's the 100th anniversary so I brought you your scarves tonight but I didn't know that Minnesota was one of the first 10 states that started the national league of cities in 1924 I mean we're talking about local control here I mean that's exactly what happened back then 10 states got together and they said we need to have a a solidified voice here um on issues like what's before us right now so anyway they recognized um Minnesota on the league of Minnesota City staff was up there so I was pleased to know that we were on the ground floor of uh National League of cities and when I first started here many years ago I wasn't sure about the benefit of belonging to to the National League of cities but um I certainly see it now and [58:29] **Ruth Grendahl:** when we're talking about local control um you know with us um there is no fake news people can walk right here and talk to us we can't you know and walk up to the mic um there's no abstract for us we have to solve big problems and small problems because people think we can do that uh but there's no abstract if somebody says there's a pothole it's a pothole and um so we have to deal with that um so anyway I was pleased that we were actually um initiators of something for the local control here um there were 3,000 people um at this conference and 1,000 of them signed up for the capital day on the hill and so they went up that um on issues that so so um I had meetings almost I mean five days but um because I chair this committee there's seven Federal advocacy [59:16] **Ruth Grendahl:** committees so we develop what the issues are to go to the Congress um um to advocate for our local cities um so our committee we have two issues and first of all it's the posos the chemical issue that we need um Municipal liability protection because we didn't cause a problem it's a man-made problem but we're going to have we're having to clean it up so once again it's local people here dealing with issues that that we didn't create and so that was our first issue and the other one was trying to get reallocation for um funding of uh EBG another acronym um that anyway we had received money since since 2009 and so there was some funding this year that we're in for a electric vehicle charging [1:00:02] **Ruth Grendahl:** station um so anyway I just want to thank staff for supporting me um actually of the 3,000 people there's Dan Keeley who i' would like to say that because I'm on this committee it means I'm on the board of directors also and so we started meeting on Saturday and Dan Keeley um from Burnsville thanked um specifically Apple Valley and Rosemount because two of us were there the mayor of Rosemount for all of the mutual Aid that we provided them in the tragedy that they'd had to survive um so he made a very passionate um talk to the entire board of directors about Mutual Aid um so be also because of the position well then I also um we used to attend the sessions that we wanted to attend and now we are the sessions I [1:00:47] **Ruth Grendahl:** mean our mayor had a session at the last meeting so we're starting to be pulled in to be leaders um at the National League of cities here so I is actually the moderator for advancing local action on climate change and Community resilience it was a panel of five Federal Agencies uh FEMA Department of energy sherol um from there and americore um so that's what kind of what I was doing and like I say reflects just because I my it's my picture reflects what everything we've done up here on sustainability and being recognized for those um what we do here and how we make our decisions and so seven advocate advocacy committee we got to have our pictures taken with with President Biden so that's special um oh here is our the [1:01:33] **Ruth Grendahl:** committee that I mean the uh session that I moderated and then um one thing here so excuse me so the this kind of summarizes summarizes at the league of Minnesota cities they sent me a letter a while ago I talked for five days sorry Minnesota has a rich history of Active participation in the National cities and your appointment reflects the importance of our state city officials in shaping Federal advocacy efforts your leadership on envir energy environment and natural resources Federal advocacy committee will not only Elevate the voice of Apple Valley but will also contribute to the broader conversation on vital issues affecting cities Nationwide so anyway I just thought it was important and I [1:02:18] **Ruth Grendahl:** Apple Valley was once up there again in front of 3,000 people so thank you everyone thank you um oh um also part of this was sending letters to our local um well our two US senators and to um congresswoman um Craig about the pias um issue and so the mayor and I signed letters going there and then last week Charles helped change change the letter up so was going to the Senate Public Works and environment committee to the chairs there and the ranking um the ranking minority members so we're very active um and I don't didn't mean to do this to staff but anyway thank you and and thank you Matt for all of the information about our wells and our issue with water quality here in Apple Valley so thank you let me see I think I [1:03:05] **Ruth Grendahl:** covered five days in five minutes [1:03:06] **John Bergman:** nice thank you for being there on behalf of Apple Valley so council member Bergman thanks uh council member Grendahl um congratulations to your appointments to these uh you've worked in the past very hard um at the National League of cities uh the comment that I would like to make in in in support of of this Council and council member Grendahl is at times uh we as a as council members and staff have taken um a little beating because they say that some of the residents say we're slow at the at this whole process of poobs or electric vehicles or solar panels or whatever is going on in our [1:03:51] **John Bergman:** building um I've um we've all done due diligence because again we're using taxpayers dollars to do this kind of stuff just because the nation and the state are doing it it doesn't always mean that it's uh going in the right direction I we've always prided ourselves even when we do taxes that we're we're not the lowest but and we're not the highest but we're in the middle and I think we still um obtain that during these kind of things that were out there the eco-friendly um stuff that are out there so so as time goes on um when we get questioned um why we're not doing certain things to certain buildings um they are just taking time to see how the process works but I've [1:04:37] **John Bergman:** always been brought up that uh before you go out and complain to somebody about something that um you look yourself in the mirror and say am I having this at my house or having something done at my house and I think that's key to this whole thing um we've we've been elected or committees have been appointed to to sit on these committees to hear the comments and sometimes things take slow and I hate slow but when it comes to the committee that uh council member Grendahl's on um it takes time and it takes knowledge in it and there has to be funding for it and uh I think we're in the right track and I have no problem with uh the way the city is running in the direction that council member Grendahl sits on so [1:05:23] **John Bergman:** thank you than [1:05:24] **Ruth Grendahl:** John council Grendahl point so I mean you mentioned there's there's always room for more opportunities in life but what I was trying to do there was there 200 cities who are not using this eecbg money and we're going to Congress asking them to reallocate it so I was trying to find these cities who don't even use the money that that there's no criteria for it just 35,000 population or more and very very little criteria and it was like some people don't even take advantage of what's already there our staff is on top of it I think we're on top of it I think it helps when we're at levels like this that we're we're finding out about funding right away um so anyway like I say always room for opportunities Bo we're way ahead of the curve of a lot of cities that I saw [1:06:09] **Clint Hooppaw:** agreed thank you also is anything else for that uh Tom [1:06:12] **Tom Lawell:** Mr Mayor just one more item uh we have learned of a uh designation by the Minnesota real estate journal and uh we're going to ask Alex sharp our economic development specialist to come and give us a little bit more background [1:06:22] **Alex Sharp:** thank you Tom uh mayor and Council we are a finalist for the Minnesota real estate Journal city of the year we did win that award last year as well there are a number of Apple Valley businesses on the list as well for finalists we've got everything from Roars to londen by's Interior to the Minesota Zoo to Times Square also up for potential Awards depending upon the [1:06:54] **Alex Sharp:** categories now will state there are a lot of categories and there are a lot of uh potential winners and so we will uh staff will certainly be attending the event as we did with the mayor last year and seeing where things shake out and then we'll report back in terms of competing cities we are going up against five other cities Rosemont Farmington Owatonna and Mankato on the fourth one but it's quite small dude I knew it too so we we've got got a good chance here uh but uh with our win last year we'll have to see where things come out [1:07:35] **Clint Hooppaw:** still an honor to be nominated a second year in a row for something like this and so Alex thanks for your work on this one and um we certainly can get that whole list out it's public out on the [1:07:40] **Clint Hooppaw:** real estate journals website as of this afternoon so we can send that list out if you know of a Apple Valley business that's on there it never hurts to just reach out and offer some congratulations uh none of them are doing this looking for the award they're just doing good projects and getting nominated along the way so correct yep thank you [1:08:10] **Clint Hooppaw:** thanks Alex any other items anything else from Council if not we will move on to the calendar of upcoming events our next uh regular city council meeting is date not on my list here so bear with me one second we are uh Thursday March 28th at uh 700 p.m. is our next regular city council meeting uh with that we have a motion to approve the calendar [1:08:27] **John Bergman:** so moved [1:08:28] **Ruth Grendahl:** second [1:08:29] **Clint Hooppaw:** all those in favor indicate by saying I I post that item carries and we have a motion to adjourn [1:08:34] **Councilmember Goodwin:** move [1:08:35] **John Bergman:** second [1:08:36] **Clint Hooppaw:** all right motion from council member Goodwin and a second from council member Bergman all in favor okay by saying I I all right and we're adjourned thank you [Music] thanks [Music]