You've attended council hearings in person. You tuned in to our televised proceedings on channel 13. Now you have the chance to listen to us on the radio as we demystify our work and the people who do it. This is not a council hearing. This is hearing the council with your host Josh Gibson. >> Thank you. deep voice person with a funky backbeat. Indeed, this is not a council hearing. This is hearing the council. You can't have a government without a council. So, you can't have a government radio station without a council show. This is it. I'm Josh Gibson, director of communications for the DC Council. You may also know me as our voice on social media. And we are uh joined today uh thankfully by our most frequent ever guest uh for this is a little bit of news our 99th episode >> of hearing the council. Um and many of those 99 are thanks to ward one council member Brandon. Thanks so much for keeping coming back. [laughter] That's one way of reacting to that comment I suppose. >> Raising the roof. >> Oh raising the roof. I'm I'm totally here for it. Um well uh that sadly may be the only levity of this episode cuz the topic that you've picked uh for today is dark. Um why don't you talk to me about the um round table you heard held earlier this week. >> Oh yeah. So this week the committee on public works and operations held a public roundt on potential human rights violations that have occurred in the District of Columbia um in as our government has cooperated with federal law enforcement. So the the goal was to get that human rights lens out there because the Office of Human Rights is in my committee and the Human Rights Act is in my committee and to hear from the public. So we had um uh almost 60 witnesses testify. We actually limited the in um the signups. There probably would have been more um but we hit that cap I think a few a couple days after we opened it up. So, >> and what what uh I think we all know, but I mean what has what has been happening in our city? Put it in your words that has motivated the need for the hearing. >> Yeah. So, back in August, the president announced a crime emergency here in the District of Columbia. Um crime at that time had been down, continues to be down. Um but he said that he was going to, you know, federalize the police force. Um so he sent in um federal law enforcement and national guard and ICE, which is the enforcement arm of the uh Department of Homeland Security. They are not law enforcement. They are civil enforcement, but they uh do take away people's liberty. Um, and they've all been crawling around ever since. Um and despite the fact that we have a law in the District of Columbia, the Sanctuary Values Act, that prohibits our government from sharing data and cooperating with ICE, uh we have seen after uh an order from the chief of police uh specifying that MPD would do so. We have seen MPD cooperating with ICE and um sharing vehicles and going out together and pursuing um residents with and without Lawrence. So, it's uh it's been a really uh difficult scary time especially for our immigrant families. We have um parents and workers and and others, entire families being taken um and detained in federal detention centers. >> And this uh anyone who lives in DC knows that there are more police agencies in this city than we can count. We're used to seeing the police cars and saying, "Oh, I didn't realize the zoo had a police force, and I didn't realize the postal service had a police force." So seeing uh Secret Service, park police, seeing uh vehicles and uniforms from federal police operating in our city is not new to us. But what you're talking about is very new uh and very disappointing. Um >> yeah, I mean what happened in August was folks who have never walked a beat in DC got pulled off their desks and started patrolling with MPD on our streets. So, we had uh DEA, ATF, FBI, like the entire alphabet soup of law enforcement agencies. Lately, we've seen the IRS police force. Um there's a uh let's see. Yeah, I mean, all kinds of entities that have just been asked to like walk around our streets and as if they're on a patrol and assist with arrests and traffic stops. And um we had Yeah. On Wednesday when the round table was going on, we got reports that Metro Transit police was riding buses with IRS and they were arresting people. It was very strange. Um, and as I think we're seeing uh governors sending National Guard, it's sort of the same thing. Federal agencies sending their police force. It's a bit of a uh competition. A bit of a who can do more better uh stricter uh a bit of a competition. It it seems like >> Yeah. I mean it's it's it feels like uh really dark times. Really dark times. And um now other cities are experiencing some of this as well. Um Chicago, Portland, and uh I think that DC was kind of um a warning for other parts of the country that um this administration is uh going to use every bit of power they have to try to control cities that, you know, are ideologically different from them. Speaking of other cities, I I you probably saw the same video clip, but to to turn to another city's mayor, uh the mayor of Chicago was asked a question about why he wasn't reporting on illegal aliens. Um and he said that quote unquote, that was the question, illegal aliens. And he said, "We don't have illegal aliens." I don't know if that's from some sort of sci-fi message you're trying to get across. Uh well, listen, the legal term for my people were slaves. You want me to use that term, too? So, look, let's just get the language right. We're talking about undocumented individuals that are human build be human beings. The last thing I'm going to do, excuse me, is accept the type of racist nasty language to describe human beings. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I think that that sort of captures the flavor of why why is this happening? Um, now a question I think that that some people are asking is the mayor has said repeatedly that her two guiding lights in this chess match with with the federal government is maintaining home rule. And the second one is >> is she has always put cooperating with ICE in a different category and it's something that she has uh been vocal about being displeased with yet through you know as we know from your hearing examples of cooperation persist. How how do you think that can be the case? >> I guess it's just not true. I mean, the the the fact is that nobody has rescended the order um to MPD to cooperate with ICE. That's still there. And we see ICE and MPD, I mean, sharing vehicles, moving around the city together. It's not it's it it's not hypothetical. It's actually happening. and and we've seen we the testimony this week demonstrated that. I mean, it just people are terrified. And um I I think I think it was last week that I was just coming out of my driveway and I saw um two patrol cars in a homeland security vehicle driving in a caravan out of a low-income property. And I pulled over and asked the neighbors, you know, did you see anything? And they said, "No, no, they were just driving through. Thank God." Like they didn't stop. They didn't detain anyone. But like, why is that happening? Why are these vehicles moving around the city together? You know, it was one thing in the beginning when um I they were there were just kind of like shared radio frequencies. So MPD would do a a stop or they would respond to a call and other federal enforcement agencies would show up because they heard the call on the radio. That's different. It's not great, but it's different than like caravanning around the city or even being in the same vehicle. >> And now to drill down on that a bit, the nonrescended order was an order by the chief of police, I believe. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The chief of police reports to the mayor, >> right? How how can there be any daylight between the the the thoughts or the the guidance of those two individuals? >> Well, there isn't. You know, I I don't I don't I also have had conversations with the mayor directly where I've heard her say that ICE is a problem. We need them to get out of town. But then for some reason MPD is still working with them. But there's there's only one boss. It's in the city and it's Mayor Bowser, right? Like the chief reports to the mayor. The police report to the mayor, >> right? I mean the non-rescended order, an order from the mayor to the chief would seemingly rescend the order, >> right? Um, tell tell me more about some of the stories that you heard at the hearing from witnesses or that you've heard offline because some people might not be comfortable coming to a hearing um because of everything we're discussing. >> We heard about um parents being abducted while taking their children to school. We heard about employees being abducted while on the job out in the community. We heard about um uh illegal searches. We heard about um people being taken out of their vehicles and vehicles being left idling in the roadway. Um we heard about people being taken in front of a school while children were playing on the playground. Um, but these are all stories of neighbors and friends and loved ones who live in our community and work in our community and they're very painful. The volume of people being taken by immigration enforcement right now is on track to essentially eliminate our undocumented immigrant population completely. because they've taken more than a thousand people this year already. So that is I assume the plan, the master plan of this administration and surely they can't execute it all across the country, but they seem to be doing it pretty well here in DC. >> And and families are just having these unfathomable conversations where uh you know, I've heard these in my in my life of well what is the least risky way for the child to get to school? Like you said there there have been officers now seen on buses. So is bus less risky? National Guard has been in the metro stations a lot. So metro is off the table. Uh Uber, you know, that's not affordable. Um >> well, also drivers who are immigrants are getting pulled over, >> right? So driver shortage. Um and uh They could get pulled over while your child is being transported. >> True. So, so then families are debating whether or not they should send their child to school, >> right? >> Uh which is a just a remarkable disturbing thing. Um and and obviously violating immigration law is violating a law, but there's no other class of law violations where we're sending out unmarked cars in with ununiform people in them to grab people that violated. I mean, imagine pick another law that a law some people might not agree. >> Well, and and remember, it's it's a civil infraction, right? It's not a criminal offense and it's ICE is a basically a secret police force that's part of the Department of Homeland Security. Neither of which existed before the Patriot Act, which is post 911, right? So there was a world without ICE. There was a world before ICE. There was Customs and Border Patrol and you know, Customs and Immigration Services. And what came out of the Patriot Act, which of course was a bipartisan bill passed after the largest terrorist attack in the United States, is this, you know, secret police force, lawless thugs who, you know, patrol our streets without an understanding of the laws and civil liberties and they take away people's civil liberties and freedom. Um, and it's something that every American should be concerned about and absolutely every Washingtonian because it's it's happening to us right now. >> And thank you for the correction about the civil infraction because that that is a distinction. >> Um, but just imagine if people that had 20 unpaid speeding tickets were being rounded up by people in in unmarked cars without uniform or if people >> I would like to round them up but not in unmarked cars. or if you didn't pay their taxes, you know, I mean, everyone folks want laws enforced broadly, I think. Um, but there are certain ways you don't. Uh, >> well, right. So, like, let's say you let's say you don't pay your taxes. So, now you've broken the law, right? And that is a criminal offense, but they would issue a warrant and someone would come arrest you and then you would get a lawyer and you would probably go home by the end of the day while you waited for your trial. You know, you'd surrender your passport and they would let you sit on your couch >> and your rights would be read to you and the vehicle would be marked and the uniformed officer would have >> just being snatched off the street because they're brown, >> right? >> They may not even have warrants. >> Yeah. And then Right. I mean, it's it's the famous quote about first they came for this group and I said nothing because I wasn't in this group and you know, then they came for me and there was no one left. >> Yeah, we we obviously shouldn't tolerate this in this circumstance. You we wouldn't tolerate this for any other civil infraction or law violation. It just it's not it's not acceptable. >> Nope. Um, now let's talk a little bit about sort of the inner workings of the council. How how did it come that your committee, which does have jurisdiction over the office of human rights, was the one bringing a spotlight to this issue? >> Great question. So the human rights act in the district of columbia has 23 protected traits and the office of human rights enforces that here in the district of columbia and what we wanted to know with this round table has was have people's human rights been violated here in the district of columbia during this period of time either by federal government local government or private actors and is there some right of action that needs to be taken here um are there complaints that need to be filed and the conversation was illuminating. Um, immigration status is not a protected trait. um country of origin is um appearance is um so there are definitely some paths here for pursuing human rights violations but at the end of the day most people wanted to come and talk about MPD and their involvement with ICE and other federal law enforcement and this was the place that they could come to talk because it's the only committee that's held held a round table on it. >> So in your role as committee chair, as long as the topic of a roundt is within the purview of your committee, you are able to call a roundt without any >> That's right. >> Um as it should be. I mean without any approval process. I'm just >> Yeah. There's also like not super strict rules about roundts in general, >> right? >> We did have the authority to do this one under the purview of our committee in particular >> and and there's no process by which you decide which committee gets first bite of the apple. If two committees have jurisdiction, they both want to hold similar hearings. >> Yeah. >> They both common courtesy usually, you know, check to see if someone else wants to. you know, the judiciary committee has made pretty clear they weren't going to do one, so we felt rather comfortable moving forward. >> And I would think they're actually I don't know if you're planning any subsequent hearings, but uh for example, the treatment of uh encampments uh because homelessness is uh a protected trait if I'm remembering correctly. >> That's right. Um, so you would be able to potentially have a hearing on that topic at some point if >> Yeah. And we did have some testimony on that. We expected we'd have more, but it was just like a it was a quick turnaround. But we did have um someone testify about the encampment clearings and how they occurred and what the feds did and what the local government did. Um and you know I I I think many of us do believe that our own local protocols were violated and um with the clearings that had happened in Washington circle and um and one of our agencies was involved with that. So that is something to follow up on. >> Right. Uh also traditionally in the scheduling of hearings and roundts uh the executive is invited to send a representative uh to speak in a prominent uh role at the committee. And my understanding is that that invitation was issued but not uh accepted. >> That's correct. We invited the director of the office of human rights and we were told by the mayor's office on policy and legislative affairs that they were not planning to send a witness from any agency >> and no was anyone from law enforcement invited or because you don't have direct jurisdiction that's not who they would have sent anyway. >> That's correct. we don't I don't have jurisdiction over um the law enforcement agencies and so uh and and we wanted to frame this around human rights so that's who we invited you know any member of the executive branch who wanted to speak to the issue would have been welcome but it was clear that there there was nobody they they plan to send on any topic >> and was there any effort to uh try to not have the round table happen No, no. Uh, it was within the um the rules of the council, so there was no reason for anybody to protest its occurrence. >> Right. Right. Um it and it seems from reading the media, reading social media, that there was a hunger to see something like this happen, a round table like this happen and to get these stories out there in an official context with a permanent legal transcript. Um, >> there really was I had heard from many constituents asking for the council to hold hearings on this issue and I waited for a little while to see if anybody else would, but I had been thinking really since August that there was a human rights lens for what was occurring in the city and was glad that I had the opportunity to hold it. So what comes what comes next? There there seems to be cooperation continuing to occur between we can't control what the federal government does unfortunately. Like you said, we can't control what the local government does >> and uh we should be able to control cooperation. >> You've shown a light on this. Um we've seen public statements about it. What what comes next? How does this end? Does this end? >> It's a good question. The most meaningful thing we could do is update the Sanctuary Values Act to clarify that this level of cooperation is not permitted because the way the executive order was written, it does thread that needle of what the law does and doesn't prohibit. And I would love to do that. The challenge is that every bill that we pass here in the District of Columbia gets reviewed by Congress because we're not a state and there's no way that updates to our sanctuary values act would make it through this hostile Congress and across President Trump's desk. Um, and in fact, they might even turn up the heat further on us, although I am not actually sure if that's possible at this point, but um, it seems infeasible at this moment, but I do think that's what ultimately what needs to happen. I was hoping that it would also inspire the mayor to resend the order or, you know, direct MPD differently, but so far that hasn't happened. And I believe you're talking about in a perfect world trying to strengthen and further clarify uh sanctuary values legislation. But isn't there a parallel effort uh a second effort because it was written into the budget to take out the law that was removed by the council to the law. >> Yeah. >> And now there's a second run at it uh if I'm understanding correctly. >> Yeah. I don't I think Congress is trying to attack the sanctuary like all of the city's sanctuary values laws and you're right the mayor did try to resend it in the budget support act for FY26 um but we struck that. So, um, [clears throat] we are in a good position on that at the moment, but there are 14 plus bills in Congress right now attempting to repeal various and sunundry laws that we've passed over the years, including this one, so it could happen. Um, not much of anything's happening right now in Congress, >> right? >> But I thought I'd heard I thought I'd heard about a second effort out of the mayor's office. Oh, I don't know. It's entirely possible. >> I thought in the last week or so I I >> Okay, I might have missed it, but >> but that may just be an informal, you know, rumors. >> Yeah. And I guess that would also get referred to the judiciary committee and there's a lot happening there right now in general. So, I don't know if that would get a hearing, >> right? Mhm. >> Um are you a as someone who has kind of brought the spotlight to the issue, are you getting blowback uh above and beyond the normal just public official blowback you get on social media as someone who is standing up for this community and uh trying to draw a line? Um >> no, not really. Um, interestingly, I thought I would and I don't welcome it, so I'm not asking for it, but uh, it's been the usual amount of feedback. Um, nothing more than that, which is fine. Um, I mean, I'm just doing my job, so not trying to create a fuss, but shine a light on things going on in our city through my oversight role. And have council colleagues been supportive been thank god someone finally did this or why are you if you stick your head up it'll get cut off. What are you hearing internally? >> Um yeah there were supportive colleagues, there were curious colleagues. I didn't hear from any colleagues who were upset. Um you know there's always a lot going on at the council. I think there were three other two other hearings that day too going on. So, um I think people trust me to do the work in my committee and they, you know, they're doing the work in theirs and sometimes folks show up and contribute and sometimes they don't. So, we did have one member join the hearing and um ask some questions which was very helpful and um I know others who were watching it. So, do you have plans for any follow-on uh hearings on the same topics to continue getting stories to come out or would it take a, you know, a really galvanizing event to to reconvene? We don't have any plans to do another hearing on this topic, but we have been hearing from the Office of Human Rights that they have an increase in EEO complaints because the EOCC, the federal EOC is not really taking complaints right now in the same way that they they had in the past. And so what that means is that people are filing in the local jurisdiction instead of federal jurisdiction. And there will be an impact on timeliness of cases and case loads um if that continues. And so I think that that is another area that we may explore in our committee whether it's standalone or in a um in a performance oversight hearing. >> And and is there an avenue if someone is uh the victim of one of these um you know is arrested outside of school, thrown in a car or taken away? Is there an office of human rights um administrative outlet or response that that they could pursue? >> Not towards the federal government um if there are private actors involved that maybe like say an employer collaborated or something um or our local government. I mean that I think does open the door but it would be right. So it it would be there have to be very particular circumstances for it to qualify. Um, but I think that there it's a big question. I mean, I think there is an opening there. >> Gotcha. Um, well, it's uh particularly absurd to pivot to the fun round now. But there has to be a fun round because we need to keep living, you know, we can't just be mired in darkness. And since we are recording this interview on Halloween, we're just going to quickly zap through some quick Halloween questions. >> Okay. >> Favorite Halloween candy. Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. >> I think that's like America's favorite. I think you're you're right in line. >> Can't go wrong unless Yeah, you can't really can't go wrong. I like I had a kid with a peanut allergy for a little while. She grew out of it. She still has some food allergies and those are like no joke. But I'm real glad we grew out of the peanut butter. >> Yeah. Here. Here. Uh, least favorite Halloween candy. M like the fruity stuff like a now and later. >> Mhm. >> Oh, okay. I'm I'm team I'm I'm team fruity flavors, but >> Okay, you can have mine. >> We'll let it go. Okay, we'll trade. Um uh a memorable costume that you wore as a kid andor that your kids have worn. >> I had a really adorable clown costume that someone made for me when I was a kid. >> Okay. Photos. photos. >> I'll see if I can find them. I like I was real little. I was probably like four or five. It was adorable. Red and white and blue and yellow and like the pom pom on the hat and like three little pom poms on the front like a jumpsuit. It was adorable. And I I I can't remember if they gave me makeup or not, but I was I was a sweet little baby. So, okay. Um my kids kids these days I don't know. They always want them from the store and they're kind of schllocky. >> Yeah. >> I have a kid being a bat this year and a kid being Chase the dog from Paw Patrol. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Is that is Chase is that the the uh police >> police dog? Yeah. >> Gotcha. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Um All right. What age do you think kids should stop trick-or-treating? >> Never. So you you can go door todoor if you're an 18-year-old a human being. Uh >> if you have the moxy, just do it. I mean, it's a holiday for everyone. >> Oh, that that Well, the next question was, "What age should you stop dressing up?" And I already know you're >> never. >> I knew that. Uh and how about scary movies? Are you team scary movies or not so much? >> I don't enjoy scary movies. I will say that my household is currently enjoying the Disney series Zombies. >> Okay. Not >> which is Yeah. Okay. It's Okay. So, I can tell you because we just got into it. It's like It's like High School Musical kind of. Do you remember those? I mean, they're neither of our generation, but Yeah. So, it's like High School Musical, like High School drama, but with um cheerleaders instead of a school musical. And then there's zombies, aliens, and vampires. No, werewolves. It It's cute. There's like, you know, lessons about morality and class and race and and stereotypes and it's cute. And there's a lot of singing, so I don't mind it. >> So it So it's more hauntedy theme as opposed to stabby truly scary theme. >> Exactly. And it's mostly fear of unknown, which is, you know, kind of meta. So, tonight we're going to watch Zombies 4 after we trickor treat. >> Okay, that that sounds good. That sounds good. Uh, well, we are out of time. I know you got to go get your kiddos. Um, and we got Halloween stuff to do. >> Uh, but anyway, uh, once again, I'm super grateful that you do this at all. Um, and uh, listeners, uh, just want to remind you to subscribe to our podcast on Soundcloud or wherever you get your podcasts. Just search under Hearing the Council. Uh, thanks again for tuning in. Um, thanks for participating. We're on DC Radio at 96.3 on your FMD4 dial or at dcradio.gov. I'm Josh Gibson. This is not a council hearing. This is hearing the council. Happy Halloween, council member. Happy Halloween. >> Take care. Bye.