it's chump change this time small one yes I'll move to approve the payment of the Bills second oh be say I I opposed all right need a motion to approve uh the meeting minutes from October 21st 2024 anybody have any changes M Mr chair I have a slight change I would like on page six under open time it's the and I don't one it says six but then it says page n of 171 on mine so I'm not sure everybody's on the same page it has to do with the resident Ron Hoffman his comment said and he used to hold the trash and recycling but I I think that meant suspend the service suspend versus holding I don't think he meant to hold all the trash yeah you got that Megan aren't you glad you're here that was the only change I saw thanks Steve if that's okay I'll move to approve I would second with that change all right all in favor say I I all opposed all right moving on we have uh nine consent agenda items and wasn't for a motion I believe staff or the board wants to pull one of them I would move to approve the consent agenda but can we pull item 5D off the Ramsey County Sheriff's Office contract for services and for discussion under uh new business new business I guess we don't think that'd be a good place to put it okay we haven't talked about it meeting you're right all right is that a motion yes I'll second that all right on Fair I I I I'll opposed all right under old business we have 6A ground Castle additional consent letter you going to do that Patrick yeah basically this is a carryover from the last meeting where we've got uh tkda our Engineers giving more input in on this um just giving consent on uh leasing extra Tower Space I believe they they found that it the tower will support additional yep which is what we wanted to do exactly all right that was just a matter of um having our Engineers double check their Engineers to make sure government redundancy on the night of election or pre night right board have any questions no all right looking for a motion to approval I'll move to approve the uh is it Newcastle what what's it called I already moved on crown castle crown castle did she say New Castle well not yet okay I'm having some computer issues tonight just so you know that all right motions made I second I will second all right uh say I I opposed all right uh old business 6B is the Surplus property for 2569 stacker Boulevard yes uh Mr chair staff at public works as well as legal staff have reviewed um disclosures and the proposed contract with cold well Banker who came to us or um I got a recommendation from s about this person handling this um and this is just to approve that contract and put it or that property out on the market we've had a lot of discussion on this so buildable lot The Manor Park neighborhood yep had an appraisal done on it and we're listing it for the apprais price yep to initially when will go up on the market after we approve tonight yep I'll give the go ahead tomorrow uh did we have the details and I should have looked at that contract closer relative to utility hookup fees spelled out in there oh responsibility no we did not that's a big one I can we visit that and make sure that it's well detailed you want me to add that I don't if there's one required uh you know it's okay vacant lot so there might be well I make a suggestion yeah the documents that you're approving tonight are simply the listing contract and the disclosure statement yeah but it wouldn't be a bad idea you might as well as a term of the listing contract to make it clear that you know the issue is raised yes just addressing responsibility of Park dedication fee uh utility hookup sack and whack yeah normally that would be part of the purchas scen but it's it's a very your weigh is a good point you might as well tell them upfront what's going to happen so it avoids having a contract that you have to turn down okay so do you want me to you want to approve this subsequent to adding those so sack and whack utility hookups and park fee reference to those yes okay would that have been an assessment fee not to the township when those was that was done for the shore and water or not yeah so they wouldn't there wouldn't be any assessment fees to the new buyer well the question is was the assessment paid by the town at the time is there record of that if that's the case then there would be no utility hookup fee required we got to do a little research sounds like it that but I it just it's it's a big fee and uh oh yeah it's I in the past I've run into that where somebody will say hey what's this for yeah as long as we disclose it we're fine sure yeah it's wise tell up front that's it it's good idea Tom all right see I have nothing else no okay all right do I hear a motion I wouldn't move to approve the uh sale of the Surplus property and uh listing through calwell Banker a second I will with his amendment that he asked to have added to the agreement I'll second time all right Mo B second and all in favor I I all right moving on uh item 6 C is the North Oaks joint Powers agreement Chad U Mr chair what what I prepared The Joint Powers agreement that you have in front of you is is basically I simply took the theou the memor understanding we had done we had approved earlier and simply converted it to a jpa because the M of understanding by itself is not a joint Powers agreement we have to actually adopt a joint a new joint Powers agreement given the fact that the present one expires in appro two months we need to do one right now I will tell you that this has not gone to North Oaks yet I wouldn't I've talked to their attorney and told her we would not send it I would not forward it to her until such time as the board approved this one all right Patrick you want to give a little just a quick history on this why we're doing this well just overall for the for the jpa with the city of North Oaks it will it's going to be handing over the maintenance and upgrading of their infrastructure in terms of water it's supposed to per the jpa begin January 1 2025 correct correct M um we are working through maintenance now finally um we have had some followup as to how they're going to be providing that but we did this um for a couple of reasons the I mean the easiest most obvious one is to relieve our staff from tending to what has become a sizable requirement for maintenance U but also to leave some pressure off of water use that is being scrutinized uh more so than ever uh especially with us and if you what one a couple of points I did add that weren't in the weren't in theou was a lang with regarding uh the fact that the that North Oaks has to adopt ordinances which comply with our our settlement of the uh White Bear Lake lawsuit M that's specifically item C right uh it is item yes 2C um I believe so yes yep it is okay that also something to do with the enforcement of sprinkling yes fact um go ahead they adopt they to adopt our requirements along those lines because we're supplying them water they have to go by our sprinkling regulations but they have to enforce it they also are going to be provided any and all opportunities to for conservation that we've arranged through um various state agencies over the last 10 years so now there's a language that I created that you may want to I want to make sure you're aware of it's a part of it's part of 3C it's the last sentence basically it says the town reserves the right to adjust the water flow at each of the large capacity water meters to bring the city into compliance with the terms of the settlement agant uh the point being is if you're using too much water we're going to shut you down or restrict your flow I don't know if you agree with that or not but I want to point that out that's that's language I added staff agrees well only because we're pretty uh regimented on Beering our water usage and we don't want them to get out of hand and just take our numbers and run them up either agreed so that's really under 2C um make sure obligations right 2C I'm sorry page three all right I no I agree with that we get to that point I'm sure there'll be some discussion yeah you are required we do we are required to give him 30 days notice before we do anything mhm we've been having meetings for what two years now Patrick two years uh a group of us in the city of North Oaks trying to work this out and the deadline's coming and they're heading the sand a little bit but dragging feet and the problem is the city's put you in a put the town in a bad position because theoretically you cut them off as of January 2nd 2025 I don't think you plan on doing that but nonetheless without a contract and without an agreement in place what are the terms because the old ones officially terminated yeah we can extend for a while but it's not going to be we did forever give them wasn't there what was the two-year notice piece that we gave them that we gave them that so it's that's this whole two-year process so technically the contract is n and void at the end yes because you terminated it and that was approved approved yes all right does the board see any other issues or changes that they want to add I'm sorry Mr chair one other thing if you notice on uh page one par uh section I I did not fill in the uh town will sell the city water at a rate equal to and left a blank there yeah any uh does the board have any idea what what what you want to charge them isn't shie charging them 125% 125% and I thought that we were going to base this model on the same as theirs we were but I didn't want to fill that in without the board's approval I I don't want to see them any arguments or discrepancies between us and shw so I think 125 is a wise number so should I fill in 125% then I'm comfortable with that okay we need to have to vote on that or well yes part of our motion to amend that part of the jpa actually be a to adopt a new jpa okay with that number correct this is simply about uh the town provides water to some North Oak residents we have been providing maintenance in the city of North Oaks in the past and that will stop now and yeah and our maintenance will stop at the border y right okay that that's oh one thing is the there the large water meters while they build them we maintain them uh there's one on each side of Centerville isn't there the meter I know actually the my understanding from talking to Dale is that there'll be a meter at at each at each spot where the uh pipes cross Centerville into North Oaks there'll be a meter placed but is it on our side their side the pits are put are be on the North Oak Side at their expense at their expense they build them we maintain them and that has not occurred yet no it has not is is that isue with the skada to to read them or don't they well all I can tell you is that talking to Dale that he's satisfied that these large water these large meter pits will work just fine well in a way that makes sense because then they're working on their side of the road and not tearing up our side of the road that's true so way to look at it very parochial is that clearly spelled out in this agreement yes it is it's um it is under maintenance and City obligations yes it is um 2B um City shall be response for maintenance of the water mains and perces lying within the uh boundaries of the city except for the large capacity water meters installed in the meter valve pits did we have to put a number in there of how many it it seems to me it was like well actually that's the map if you know if you notice in paragraph one it's it'll be there's two maps one map one is the boundaries of the uh area being served and map two is location of the uh of the pits basically gotcha okay so my question to you has to do with those pits it says the city shall be responsible for maintenance of the water mains and pences lying within the boundaries of the city except for the capacity water meter installed right is that an implicate that that now lays with the township I know it's under City obligations actually yeah that language is under uh Town obligations it is yes it should be I just read it out of be maintenance but yeah but be that's that's the city's obligations the town's obligations are um right at the last paragraph the town shall maintain a large capacity water meter installed in the pit as described in exhibit a which shows up on the town city property however that that thing under maintenance under the city is that am ambiguous that we're going to maintain it or are we maintaining it on the city property hang on I Now's the Time to maybe it shouldn't even be there well no we I would recommend that you have it there just in case someone ever asked the question in the future no no no I mean it's in two different sections but it's referenced different differently in the the city's obligations well I'll work on that okay it just so it's clear we have no intention of maintaining right the pits or meters on North Oaks property right from henceforth exactly okay well so maybe we should withdraw approval of this till the next meeting I'll work on that language okay 125 we'll have a pool yeah contract it's not a bad idea so you want a motion to table this I think we should I would suggest that yep there's there's time obviously so you have to well the out as time is on our side not theirs so you'll have it ready for the next meeting oh yes so we're clear the issue is the maintenance of the uh of the pits and at 125% uh on that in terms of rate structure so so I'll I'll move to table this till the November 18th meeting I'll second it all right motions B second all in favor say I I all opposed all right okay item seven public hearings we have none uh item eight under new business we're going to go back to the uh consent agenda item D the sheriff's contract MH see we can find it Mr chair I did review the contract and U Pat I have been talking about this it is um in my mind not the perfect contract but given the amount of time that's been uh been spent on this yep it is the it's Pro it is the basically the best contract or not I say the best these are the final terms that the count is going to offer it's the least offensive how about that yeah um it has all not only has it been scrutinized by Chad's office and um and staff but it has gone back and forth amongst the five other City administrators for editing um and there's been a lot of give and take over the last few months on this as a point of reference there has never been a contract prior to this correct right cor this is clear cleaning up loose ends for somebody yeah a couple points i' something to point out is 4.2 actually section four is the defense and identification uh I would you know the one concern obviously is office officer misconduct and who's responsible for that and as I read 4.2 is that's the responsibility of the county because it it says intentional misconduct or negligent Acts or omissions of the county well the County employees are are the county so I read it that that's their that's a responsibility the county and they identified the township okay well um now have we had any discussion with our own insurance for on this so that it's fully understood that we wouldn't be brought you have an indemnification obviously but but so we're not brought back in on an excess basis that we have other insurance that might apply to this I'll be honest with you uh Steve I assumed that since everybody was indemn to fied on this we didn't need to pursue that but I mean if you feel well just don't want to assume anything that that we're left uh you know without any insurance coverage if there's a question mark protect just just to make sure that they they have a clear understanding of what we're agreeing to MH and uh that our insurance would emn to basically step in on our behalf if we're if we are sued you they can name anybody in a lawsuit I just want to make sure that there's that we have insurance coverage that that we're not leaving our yourself alone now I'm assuming and I probably shouldn't do that but I'm assuming that um our city Partners in this have had this contract scrutinized by the insurance trust with the league would hope so yeah well I have spoken with Joseph Kelly about this oh great yeah we've talked about it he's comfortable well he sees the same problems I see okay and one of the big issues that I think Patrick saw I saw and Joe saw was the issue of self-insurance by the county that was something that concerns meh although as as it exists today if this contract was signed and enforced tomorrow what is their insurance program are they self-insured or are they do they have a car initially they are they're they're they're not self-insured but they're looking at doing it yes that's my understanding so it's accurate yeah it's an issue that presently not a pro not an issue but it can be in the future cuz they reserve the right yeah and it's not something that's going to be surprising anybody we've talked it through for a couple of years now um yes our group is shrinking um and there are changes that are coming yeah if if it changes to a self-insured program uh you know that's that's all funded by the city of St Paul or Ramsey County taxpayers including everybody sitting in this room that lives in Ramsey County but that doesn't necessarily save the township so I'm just want to make sure we got our insurance piece we're comfortable that we have insurance behind us we send that to the to the league for I think we should but my main concern is the fact that there it's the C the county reserves the right at the end of the year to Total its actual costs and then send a bill out for everything over and above the estimate and I would not put it past the county to uh to include self- Insurance costs uh that you know as part of this final billing yeah that's really honorous yes we're on budgeted items since we yeah we create our budget based on what we know not what we don't know we also have um carryover funds though too yeah that help and we've gotten that for a couple years now yeah it'd be much I think I would is I'm not going to talk for the cities but I think everyone would be much more comfortable if they just had their own their annual premium and didn't didn't self-insure tot that would avoid the problem it would but they we recommended that was the first problems we raised and they had changed their position not changed that so I think there was some other give and take that kept that in place did the Ramsey County Board of Commissioners have input on this contract I don't think so then why are they signing off on it I'm sure it was uh reviewed by legal staff on their behalf well the people that are going to sign off on this at least two of the new Ramsey County Commissioners will be brand new oh that's right they're being voted on tomorrow that's right so and I I only know the two around here I don't know how many more are up to it but well anyways Chad said at the start I this is our best that we can do for now and there's one other point I want to make too it's under 6.1 costs and payments it's 6.1 as costs and they have this term Capital it's the last last word in the uh in 6.1 they don't Define Capital what do they mean because if you notice that they want to tell us what they mean if they if you knowe they have equipment the word equipment appears before that so therefore it's can't mean you know car you know can't mean p Vehicles is that a new uh Sheriff's building well that's one thought Capital that seems to be current new substation yeah it's a very nebulous term yeah but again this is something that's been brought up before it's not new I just want to point that out that it's not that's why I say it's not a perfect contract when you stretch the imagination well to to to Ed's point point you know the Commissioners uh I assume say wrong to assume but this had to be a discussion item before it got to this point with the Commissioners cuz I I suspect they're the ones that were pushing to get a contract in place for the sheriff's department because it is a huge expense it is but I I'd like to have some definitions but I don't think it's wrong to ask but but if this thing has been dragged down the road I don't think going to get any no other commitment but those are good points to bring up for the next one mhm all right we have it on the record don't we Megan we do all right all right uh Tom you got anything else I don't know this is similar to previous contracts uh this is the first contract yeah you're right first contract ever this year not an extension of okay interesting prior to this they simply gave it they they gave the town a estimate of what the costs were and that's what you budgeted yeah yeah you did say that no anything else I've said enough nice to have a contract yeah yes well I'm not so sure thank you that makes it so much easier to support then well it be maybe the future is some def better definitions of the terms because that's up to the eyes of the beholder as to what all this means and that means lawsuits right and my last comment was not meant tongue and cheek the old system of just sending having you given invoice by the county annually was a lot a lot more manageable for the for the township than this is but there's been over the years some surprises in yes that's true but on the other hand if they're not going to provide services unless you sign a contract so right you're you're kind of in the corner on this yes you are all right if there's no other discussion I need a motion to approve the agreement for contract law enforcement and Public Safety Services with Rams County Sheriff Department so moved I'll second that all right all fa say I I all opposed all right that ends our regular agenda we're going to have closed session but we will take open time first if anyone would like to come up to the mic because when we go into Clos session I'm afraid we'll have to empty the room uh good evening uh my name is Steve bis I live at 1104 Pine Hill and uh my backyard my back window looks over the uh I don't even know what it's called the Centerville light Industrial Park project of Whitebear Township uh yes what's the actual name now Patrick 35 Park 35 Park yep pretty catchy and I I don't know right now if I should ask you to tell me or there's uh we just watch from our backyard and uh watch dirt being moved and I don't know if you know but I think most of the dirt uh at least it's level um they have a couple of uh retaining walls up my house looks uh at the one on the North side they miss in a few bricks I think or blocks I think they're waiting for a shipment and then I think I'm looking and seeing some uh infrastructure pieces there's some pipes and stuff um that they're staging and uh they were lucky I think that it didn't rain uh all during the time I've uh kind of peaked out there okay I walked out there and uh it's it's pretty uh a lot of clay out there so uh you get a half inch of rain and the next day it it doesn't sink in but my concern is um that and I I think I speak for a lot of my neighbors is uh we don't know I don't know who's going to fight for us to get what little bit we might be asking for I know at one time there was some discussion with the previous developer about um a a um path going in there and I don't know if formally we the city the township wrote that off and said no path I talked to the Mark at North Oaks and he said that was up to the city now I guess my main concern is right now is that looking out at a blank slate right now I'm picturing what we're in for and my guess is that they'll be building um these buildings I'm going to guess five years for the next five years so I don't you know they have to put in the um uh the utilities and the sewer and those sort of thing and that's going to take some time and I don't know I guess at one time I was at a meeting and they talked about they're just going to put in one big building and I can see that and I kind of like that but do you just put in one building and then do the rest of the infrastructure peace meal or do you pour all the cement and there's going to be a lot of cement there Steve right now we don't have a plan they have not come to us with a plan all they they did was the grading and the retaining walls to make it all level so they can work out a plan as of right now we do not have a a barely a concept plan much less a building plan yeah and so we're a little bit in the dark on this too I understand that and that's why I I'm sort of um confused or unaware of you know this has been a different process than we've seen in the past there where the developer and the and the uh seller have worked with the township right up front but this process North Oaks company chose to um make it more marketable as I think what we were told by leveling that land although I think we all have an idea that there is a developer I.E purchaser behind it but they haven't come to the Planning Commission or any other plans and who's going to fight for you really is um it has to do with the planning Comm Mission looking at the plans making recommendations whether it's for landscaping or whatever but the damage for the trees in the past time have already taken place they're gone yeah for the most part and that I'm not real familiar with the I think it's city ordinance 35 is that the allinclusive uh and I'm just kind of kind of um Breeze through that and I found a couple things that were concerning earning and that perhaps on a slower moving project that we might have been able to uh show them that there's Provisions there to preserve some of the Landscaping uh but as they say uh that's water over the bridge the horse is out of that Barn well nor normally our ordinance specifies commercial projects as uh especially Landscaping it says I don't know Tom you probably knows better than me so many over story trees so many shrubs so many blah blah blah now when it goes to the Planning Commission they're going to be more sensitive because of what was taken down to get better screening on the north side of the property yeah and that's always been the discussion that we want to make we try to buffer this thing as best we can they'll be talk about um down lighting they'll be talk about uh above uh rooftop uh mechanical they'll be all that stuff will be discussed when they when they actually come to us with what they think they want to do yeah and I you know and I'm I know this thing is moving fast and it might come to a screeching Al here yes and um you know like you said uh they're doing this a little bit different than normal and my wife and I were talking we go we got to make our voice heard that before they start pouring gutters and Paving streets that they leave a little bit extra room to plant some significant trees on that North Side the board was not pleased with the way they approached this but they had the legal right to do it it's their property it's their trees they they have the right to and and as long as they uh applied for the grading permit and the retaining walls they still had that right but now from now on now they're going to have to come to us with anything they propos so now now we're able to be a little bit more uh scrutinizing on what they do yeah and so let it be heard that you know well trust me there'll be plenty of of uh neighborhood meetings when this starts because yeah it'll be the first step right there'll be open there'll be open meetings with the Planning Commission and so public meetings will come to us so it's not going to you guys will always be in the loop yeah and so just so I can say we want plenty of trees uh several rows of trees and maybe we'll get one row of trees on that North Side some mature trees so that maybe in 10 years they might be uh blocking half of the structur and and sometimes too it's possible they could do some bming I don't know how how the plans like that but if they can burm it then the trees don't have to be as big because they get up get them up off the ground a little bit that that's all for discussion yeah and from what I've seen of the grading and the idea that they want to make the most of every square foot that's typical Builders and I I I would love BMS but I'm I'm willing to set uh to uh agree or or be satisfied with just some mature trees they they still have to meet the green space so no matter what they do they have to keep so much green in open space so and that path do we know if that's still again we don't it's wide open there's been no discussion on that um once upon time we saw a concept plan with a path M back in the plans but it's nothing formal more than someone's concept of what they were going to do so nothing has been to the Planning Commission or the board so okay very good thank you we're receiving your information and your neighbors emails and things so yeah we'll we we'll represent the residents yeah thanks Steve all right White Bear press uh yeah Logan gon 12599 Europa Avenue North um white a lake but Hugo really um so I'm actually not here uh for myself tonight um my managing editor uh my direct report boss Shannon Gran um recently became the lead reporter for uh White Bear Lake proper so there's just some shifting around of resources at White Bear press and uh the first thing she asked asked me on her first day this morning was what's going on with the white bear fire situation and I was like closed session um and then I did not know we were doing another Clos session tonight um so I may not get much here but she has requested that I she requested that I request um if you guys could just give me a brief summary of where everything's at at the I am not going to step in it I'm going to turn it over to our attorney I figured you were going to get it sorry considering the the distinct possibility of litigation actually is more than distinct really there's no comment we can make at this time other than to say that talking the city and the township as well as the other surrounding communities that are part of that contract which be Gem Lake Birchwood and Delwood are talking okay um rewinding a step I just want to fact check make sure I've got this right as well this dispute originally arose because of uh interest on the public safety building is that correct I would just call it contract dispute just call it contract dispute yeah way to put it in there we go well because it gets confusing when you start getting into the nuances of this whole thing so yeah yeah I figured um well thank you for giving me what you can and I uh that's about what I expected and I told her as much this morning so she said ask anyway way um also nice flag thank you yes thanks Logan ask and you shall receive Logan thank youal got anything tonight we have a couple students we do you want to come up and camera and all right thank you cowards we're smart I yeah I agree with you all right uh that ends open time then what we're going to do is uh if you students want to come up we'll sign what whatever you've got for paperwork but then we'll have to have the room vacated for a closed session with our attorney take one you're lucky you got a short take him she's like in love with it imagine we've seen a couple of these things I come you told that you were expecting people to start coming you're not Donald Trump there you go thank you that's funny have a good night I thought you Kamal Harris tonight thanks thank you good see [Music] [Applause] Megan you want to keep notes of this by the way I know all right I need a motion Megan's still here she's got to leave I used to be able to stay you want to do the motion first and then yeah that's good point I need a motion to go into close session with legal considering the White Bear Lake Fire Department I'll contct motion second all in favor say I I e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e all right I need a motion to come out of close session for the fire contract I'll make a motion to come out of close session on the fire contract second all favor I I oppose all right Chad would you like to give us a this the board discussed um making an making a uh settlement offer well the board discussed uh making an offer to this well Megan just hang on continuing negotiations yes exactly that the the the uh Town board approved continuing negoti to continue to negotiate with the city to resolve the outstanding litigation contract disput dispute yes which is at the heart of the litigation yes got Meg yeah it's close I'm going to come all right I need a motion materialis so moved second all in favor say I I I I need a motion to adjourn at 807 so moveed second all in favor say I I I thanks guys thanks mate for