okay it's 6 o'clock we do have another um discussion prior to the dog barking so we'll get started okay so then um she'll join us I'm so this is uh the regular work session meeting for July 15th for the city of Minnetrista um present this evening myself Lisa Wayan the mayor and council president are Kathleen rkin an McGregor Peter vicory Claudia Lacy and director do I to have to list everybody okay Ali paulus Brian Grim yeah then David AEL and then uh chief of police um Paul FSE so and then also uh shortly uh Sarah sansal will be here she's on her way in the door right now so we're going to start out with the public uh notice mealing distance discussion I'll hand that over to David yeah um thank you mayor memb a council um I it's my understanding that this got brought up as a result of the Farm Winery request um when we went through that conditional use permit process and the public hearing uh radius that was sent out um I'll certainly correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there was two property owners that expressed concern to a couple council members about that notice not being large enough um as you may call we ended up postponing one uh continuing a public hearing and at the direction of the Planning Commission we did extend our notice from 500t to 1,000 ft for that specific Farm Winery request I will add however that th000 ft did not capture the two that that I believe again correct to those who were had the discussions um I um I think the two that were expressing concerned would not have been included in that foot radius they did not get the the notice um for that so uh like I said I it was my understanding that a couple council members requested that we have a discussion about um what what is the correct notice uh for these types of things standard uh State Statute is 500 ft that's what we follow for conditional use permits and and variances um and standard things like that um I do have a coule two different um scenarios if if you will that I can show you too that we we ran um showing what what that might look like with if you were to extend distances um with public hearing notices like how many different Parcels that that would include um for you so if you wanted to look at that um here's just two two addresses that we grabbed in the egg district 5185 North arm drive you can see at 500 ft you get 17 Parcels at 1,000 ft you get 40 1,500 ft you get 69 and then at 2,000 ft you get the 115 another example U maybe a little bit larger Parcels but they still are zoned egged is 76 7760 counter 26 500 ft you have 8,000 ft you have 13 Parcels 1,500 you get 25 parcels and then at 2,000 ft you get 29 so you can see there there's there's quite a difference you know in terms of the you know the numbers and what you might pick up I do have Maps if you you know want to look at at that but generally speaking this like I said this kind of in the center of the city um egg Zone Parcels that we just grab to see what what that would look like number number wise um for that so like I said at at uh um per the result of the Farm Winery bring this forward for discussion to see what if anything the uh Council wants to do in terms of uh public heing notice radius uh for different types of L use items so um I had heard from a number of people at at the so I was at the first meeting anyhow from the first meeting that were at the meeting and even others that weren't that they didn't think that the 500 ft and you can tell by the numbers that you pulled up you get like eight people or you get five people or six people the difference is if you have a a developed area you're going to get those 40 people if you but out in the rural area you're not you're going to get those 8 to 10 so that's why the then and the reason they extended that um actually the applicant requested to have the application put on postponed and brought back or whatever so it wasn't the residents that were complaining about not being noticed it was because the applicant requested having having the um public hearing um continued so just just kind of for that but you know I I don't I don't think it would hurt to go further I mean would there be you might get more people involved but this is this is the first time this has come up I mean this is this is the first time it's come up I mean they did figure it out uh you know I mean if you want the process worked you did to that point I mean it's noticed it's in the paper it's on the meeting agendas for the Planning Commission for the council meetings there's there's plenty of ways out there a to look for 5 seconds and see if anything's happening near them I mean at some point the onus is on people to find out if anything is happening I don't think we necessarily need to send notices to everyone within 1500 ft of these properties but it's not a big deal because as you can see 26 or even 40 it's not a big deal you have you have to send notices to let's say 10 anyway to send out a few more doesn't inste a 70 that's that's a lot of you could do 15 17 to 40 no 1500 this says 1500 oh you want to go to 1500 I no I'm just saying like that's what's in here but that's I mean that's a lot more people that's a lot of more notices that's a lot more postage that's a lot of more calls that staff might get that they don't necessarily need to handle but I I think I think even the the people that were complaining there there were people that said we didn't get a notice and we're neighbors but even going to a thousand it wouldn't have affected them and would it have affected them if you went to 1500 I just think 500's not quite enough but a th000 is kind of nice I I don't want to open up a can of worms we don't want to but I mean not that I want to sneak things by our residents but I think a thousand seems fair if you're going to do something on your property just it's your property can can there be different areas where you have 500 exactly that's what we're talking yes that's what I was going to say right but then if we do that then you're going to have res go well I didn't know my property was zoned this way they got notices 1500 ft we didn't get most people know whether they're in the rural area or in the egg area most people know that that seems like a good comprise I'm not talking about in the developed areas that you have to do a th000 ft right but then when someone in the development does something that somebody doesn't like and they don't get notice then they're be like well in this area you send out, 1500 ft why do you only send out this our I don't think that'll happen though because in that area you're going to cover probably 40 people on 500 ft think about it a 500t radius um we're not talking we're talking radius in a developed area you're going to be hitting at least 40 if not more people right but what about the 41st that's at 525 he doesn't get it now their neighbors are talking about like well I didn't get one why in this part of town is it this distance that's a good point and the other thing is in the developed areas people are closer together and neighbors talk in the rural area my neighbors are 400 ft away from me I don't talk to them very often I don't have a fence where I go over and have a cup of coffee you know it's it's different it's a whole different when we're up at the lake our neighbors are right next door we talk to them all the time at home we don't talk to our neighbors very often we don't see them whereas in the developed area if Joe gets one but Susie doesn't because she's outside that 500 Joe probably will tell Susie hey did you get this notice no I'm not in the 500 ft and the word gets out the other thing keep in mind the Laker is not going to be free and a lot of people aren't going to take the subscription so that Avenue is probably going to be going away very shortly in terms of notifying so the only way people are going to be notified is that they take it upon themselves every single two weeks two three times a month go on the website and look at the agenda that's that seems reasonable it takes seconds to look through it we email them correctly they can sign up and get the email right to their email of what's on the agenda well look that's not our fault but what's the what's the draw back what's the drawback to itcl I I look at it being more inclusive yeah what what would it cost between 17 versus is going up again doll I guess point of clarification is this just for Farm wineries or are we doing this for everything for conditional everything it would be everything in in those areas we're not going to do that I think conditional use permits my my my feeling is conditional use permits because that's where you get not so someone building a shed that's bigger than a th000 square ft is a conditional use permit right variances I don't think that that is going to be a huge issue because that only might affect the immediate properties but I my this is how I'm thinking conditional use permit could affect I mean obviously not sh what about a comprehensive plan amendment that so y those those I think have to go out further don't they no um everything is 500 right now 500 um it's just for puds we did extend that to a 1500 for for a PUD we for a rezoning to a plan unit development that's 15 yep mhm that's already like that yep okay David how many um residents would uh say uh in a developed area would we send letters to and 500 ft uh you know on average is it in that same range as yeah I mean you know it's going to be I guess I don't know it's been I'd have to run a number for you you don't generally have cups for developed areas do you yeah I suppose that's I just curious if it's a similar amount to say a th000 foot notice or in a rural area yeah I can you know if you want to talk yourself let me see if I can I mean I it's not a huge cost um do the numbers what is the cost difference between sending out 20 versus 100 or 70 I mean we're talking 50 at 55 cents you're talking $25 $30 aren't stamps like 70 cents starting like this week so it's a $40 right but it's going to keep going up it's not going to get cheaper but we're talking $70 versus $20 so we're talking a you know a very small amount in order to inform our residents that's that's how I view it you know here's what's happening in your neighborhood um if you're interested here's the issues or here's the time here's the date here's the place um I just grabbed a one in hun Crest at 500 ft and there's 58 Parcels M it seems like the th f is a reasonable one uh where you catch people that are directly impacted but they're not so far away that they're just you know bringing up an issue because they read about it you that seems like a good that's what we want to head off that's what we don't want to have happen yeah we don't want everybody to give their input on it well you know quite ways away you have enough people somebody will find fault with something and it just gets out of hand so yeah but I guess for the agricultural aspect I can the compromise is fine I think that makes sense agre so you're saying a thousand for the agricultural thing not for the not for the develop no not the developed areas but and it'd be about it'd be actually still less than the developed areas we don't have a lot of cops anyway I mean how many cops do we get a year maybe three or four yeah you know it'll vary but yeah in in that area right so a th000 ft in the egg and egg preserve for just CS yeah I don't think we need to do it for variances right but there's also comprehensive plan Amendment rezoning subdivision and other comprehensive plan Amendment isn't that already 15 ft500 rezoning um rezoning would be 5 still it's a 500 and we got in an adjacent communities for a comp plan Amendment comp plan Amendment and comp plans are a little different but if you do a rezone yeah that should probably at least be a th000 but that how how often have we done a rezone not very y not very I mean I I can't remember when we've done a rezone well we take you know generally speaking we'll take care of them every time we do our comp plan you know is when we're doing it so it normally I mean the most common thing would be a rezone to a PUD for a development and there there just kicks in the 1500 okay that's and when we and when we do a comp plan Amendment there's all kinds of public I mean there's more noticing though um isn't it required for a comp plan Amendment it go well we yeah with outside agencies especially and neighboring communities yeah correct okay so comp plan Amendment you're saying is only 500 ft yeah it probably would hardly ever involve the egg or egg preserve District but then I think it should also be the Thousand I mean it it's never come up before but it seems like consistency would be better what do you think it's up to you I think I think it worked every change made they're hoping that you know they're they're finding anything they could to point at the city and that was one of the things that stuck on the wall how long it's a 500 in Forever almost or like I said but we don't have we don't have very many cups in in the egg and egg preserve District that's you know well if if it would have been a cup for shed over a th000 square ft there wouldn't have been a concern it's it's what it was for sure and well we had the same issue um with the um the house the um what it and people were complaining that they didn't get noticed and and so on so I mean we it's come up a couple times but again I I agree is that it just twice that you can remember twice in how many years a lot 15 but that's I'm saying it doesn't matter well but it matters for staff because now they have to check which which um distance it is and how much they have to send it out if it's just for the conditional use pernament then when they do the variances it's only 500 Fe like you're you're adding then do a00 for everything well I'm just saying like no matter what we do we're adding more on staff's plate but it's to make our residents happy twice in plus years people have complained about it like I'm just saying like because they didn't get a notice yeah but I guess it's back to what's like what is it about though again back to would they be concerned if it was a shed over th000 sare ft orage might you don't know so what about changing the sounds like in my assumption is it's the Farm Winery was the issue right that was the problem the thing an idea of something you could do is change that from a conditional use permit to an interm use permit which an interm use permit requires 1,500 ft um that's an option that's the one specific use that was the issue I know we have already we just went through and issued that cup but that's not a bad idea good idea I mean that makes more sense a good idea versus changing it for everything so anything from and I mean that's kind of what the residents wanted you know was an interm versus a conditional use but it was we're in mid game it wasn't a good time right you can't you can't change it do that at that point but I mean I guess that's what I'm more focused on is that seemed to be the problem was that particular use and everyone kind of wanted to do an interm use anyway so maybe anything that comes in the future would be an iup and not a cup and we're going to have that question come up on in a regular meeting too for an IOP y yep okay so it would make more sense to change the farm Riner to an iup and that already has a 1500 and then we don't have to change this ordinance specifically correct correct that seems much corrected cuz they're only allowed in the egg and egg preserved districts and all we got to do is change them from a c to an [Laughter] eye David why didn't you say this 20 minutes go really smart very good you go there you go had to ask specifically the right question that David are there but are there any situation that's why we have disc that's why we have discussions it's very good is that well are there any situations where that wouldn't work I'm just thinking about I became aware of this a long time ago when the school district wanted to build a bus bar next to my house which I you know didn't really think that was a good use of the land but um anyway are there situations like that that say changing to an eye wouldn't cover just so I think what you're asking is what else in is a owed as a cup in certain zoning districts that maybe should be only iups that's right that's much worse than thank you well um it just be back to build you know the building sizes that probably what triggered that was it was over a th000 square feet is my assumption and they probably I'm assuming they needed a cup that was Wild guy yeah um but see buildings you wouldn't want to do as an iup you would do c because you wouldn't want to say well in 10 years you have to tear it down you know what I'm saying so so are there situations like that then we wouldn't be covering them by uh just going with what we're proposing but there might be other instances okay here's another one what about dog kennels those maybe should be iups yeah because they are they are conditionally used they are cups yeah maybe look over the list and see what you can what you would think would be kind of a trigger that would say it should be an iup versus a cup and it most of the time it's because of the hor Stables what are the both storage ones those are cups Cups M well we don't actually I mean the boat storage ones that we have are legal non you know they're legal non-conforming uses and none of them actually have a cup have have cups they've been there one's got one cuz you made him put up the bar oh yeah we we gave him yes corre he'd be the only he'd be the one that has one yes but maybe like maybe that would be a different things that are going to be um when noise or traffic or maybe those should be iups versus CS yeah it seems like that would be why people would complain if you had a bunch of traffic to or any of these other things we're talking about and then if it's an IOP then it has to be 1500 ft anyway correct okay all right are we okay happy with that does that make sense to you yeah yeah okay okay all right okay all right all right now we're moving on to dog barking all right Sarah or or who wants to take this Paul Madam mayor council I'll be happy to get it started here and if it gets technical I'll hand it over to Sarah so uh I think you're aware that the uh this whole process has been going on for months and uh we did get some conclusion um so basically the dog owner was found guilty of on five of these seven citations um and so what that does is it triggers a a uh try to stay back from this it triggers a a process where because there were several violations in a short period of time that met the criteria to declare that property or those dogs as a public nuisance um and so there's been some discussion about notifying the dog owner of that um the letter has been drafted um by our City attorney um it's been printed signed by me it's ready to go out but we didn't want to do anything until after this discussion tonight so um at this point um that matter is resolved if there continues to be violations we will continue to handle it by issuing citations for each uh credible offense um and then secondary to that would be because they're going to be notified that this is now a public nuisance that kind of starts the Civil process for the city if uh we continue to get complaints there then the city would have another Avenue uh to uh explore to aate to aate correct so we and we don't have to um issue more tickets in order to Abate the current dogs no no that would be the criminal side and then this is the Civil side the nuisance piece so so we could send them a letter saying your dogs have been deemed a nuisance so if we hear any more complaints we will remove them that's essentially what the letter say the say so it's signed it's sitting on my desk it's ready to be sent certified mail but we didn't want to do that before we had this discussion tonight that doesn't mean the city has to do that it's just by notifying them that it's declar it a nuisance uh it gives the city the option if they want to do that if it continues to be a problem okay and then we'll bring it back before we take any action have further discussion and see how you feel about that because that would involve um you know there's some other steps to that that we've never gone to this point before at least not in my time here which is a couple of years so um this is pretty rare that something would get to this level uh involving an animal but well it's pretty rare that they don't comply just yeah have you been getting more complaints while the trial has been going on too I think there's been a maybe a couple but uh it has definitely changed or or slowed um not to the extent that it was so they were just piling up to the point where seven citations were issued um there were more than probably likely much more than seven complaints but those were the ones that we were able to go in very ver ify and then issue citations um so this letter is very clear about uh what the intent of the city is um and then if the city choose if we continue to have a problem then we'll have this discussion and then we'll decide if uh we get a search work based on that and then we can go on the property and impound the dogs the question then will become longterm what do we do if they don't comply what's the next step after that um so that was my my question I'm sorry um so let's say we Abate those dogs and they get new dogs and those dogs bark can we Abate those dogs or only the dogs that were there first I believe it only applies to this situation is my understanding so if they went and got entirely new dogs we'd start this whole process all over again well if I may uh I got an earful this weekend uh from the neighbor that uh there uh people in question just R in uh truckloads of chickens and boosters and the whole time I was uh uh talking to the resident uh you could hear the roosters in the background and you said that they Crow at night and early in the morning and all day get those complaints we're getting them all right so this isn't a theoretical question it sounds like uh the the neighbors are you know the r and so so we may be revisiting this but not with and do does this I read the ordinance it sounds like it does apply to any kind of animal that pretty much covered anything that I don't think you can use the the dog incidents against the roosters you have to right start sighting the you know the roosters and then once you get to the three times in the three month period or whatever it is then we can declare them a nuisance so the neighbors have to speak up yeah yeah we have to document those okay complaints it's a little different process because we have a very specific ordinance that we can site under for marking dog but um nonetheless we would document it and we would be able to eventually declare that inance as well although I I believe that because a dog is a domestic animal it's a little easier in court to make the argument that they need to control the animal and keep it quiet right um it's a little bit more difficult the further outside of that domestic animal you get because they're going to try and make the argument that these are Farm animalss mhm um you know and chickens are not really loud but roosters can be very loud and clearly they are because I've heard some voicemails with them in the back it's loud I have a recording they sent me I do you have one yeah you really have a recording oh yeah share it with you if you want um then does the uh uh ordinance is that City wide or is it like the rural areas more yes the short answer is yes that's Citywide but again it depends on when you get to court the argument is a much stronger one if you're in a residen or city lot in the development where I think the expectation of not allowing that kind of noise ongoing is is an easy argument to make the further outside you get the harder that argument is to make uh especially when you you get in front of a judge so it's not cut and dried as cut and dried as as we would like but what's their address again I'm sorry what's the address again the address uh I do not see if I have that do you know it it's West West Branch Ro I don't have the numbers in front of me I want to say it's 77 I don't know some I apologize I don't have that in front of me yeah I mean there's and you know the thing is is well and then this is another issue and I forwarded the email to Paul and Jasper too with the um the noise regarding um dirt bikes and four-wheelers and that's come up again it's weird it's ugly head again and so um the same property on the same property yeah they're basically summing their noses at the city and at The Neighbor Next Door saying we are going to do whatever we want and to heck with you so um that's going to be coming up too for a discussion I'll talk with Paul and Jasper first and see where we want to go with that but um just for reference the address is 6501 West branchford 651 West Branch West Branch and and I know it seems weird but and if you live out in the country you you realize this sound travels further than you think oh no that happens around the lake too I can hear what's happening other side the lake even on it like yeah I mean this is country but it's not it's not that far up there well the neighbor houses are right by the property line and the animal pin are right behind their fence they're very close Madam mayor and Council I think I just want to add that there we can you turn yours off yeah he's pushing right now I'm not going to touch that for um I think the issue here is these folks you go Ally yeah I can talk enough I think they can hear me but we can hear you in this particular case uh I think these folks are trying to make this into a working farm to prove their point they're not doing this out of necessity so that's the difference this isn't can you just turn can you turn it off Connect they're all connected maybe just you know for we're almost done here can you turn it off and then during we'll take a break and and then fix it hopefully for the yeah so anyway to my point I I think this situation is very clearly they're bringing AR they the very beginning of this in this is an is they're just going to right they have an active Farm there well they had a couple of dogs I think some sheep and some miscellaneous app they have a bunch of chicken I mean they only have three acres it's not like it's a farm was that right I think it's only three acres isn't it five 5 just over five acres and I believe that unfortunately Sarah and any I mean this is so frustrating because we took them to they they fought it in court they basically were proven guilty all they have to do is pay a $680 fine and then they go on their Merry Old way and they continue to do be be terrible neighbors I mean any recourse the city can do can we give them our legal fees like well that's they said they were going to come after the city to pay all their legal fees well they lost I don't I know but have they won yeah can we do the can we do the same thing no criminal prosecution civil how about civil civil weend can we civil um usually you don't get attorneys fees unless you specifically agree pay the attorney contract say whoever aute this contract that loser they'll pay the other side of the attorne fees and we actually usually discourage that because our fees are so low that if the city had to pay the other side of the attorne fees it would be paying really high so yeah TR are not well I do still want to look at that fee schedule that we talked about before yeah I mean I just don't think this would be the test case for that unless a lot of leg create bad but can they have a working farm on that property with the size of their property 5 acres is that do they need need a c is um Farm activities are allowed yeah Farm yeah animals farm animals I mean the only thing that um if they do horses they'd run into the we have they need so much land for passionable acreage but we don't that's just for horses not sheep or so it doesn't matter if they have sheep and goats or anything like that so we should look at that orance and add land requirements for chickens roosters sheep and other things I mean that doesn't seem like a big enough property to do that on people are trying to do it in your neighborhood [Laughter] yeah well do I mean that might be more reason no you x amount of AC I mean generally they most people most most people would say 5 acres is enough to have chicken you know yeah I think so too but so you'd have to maybe you'd have to say if you have you have to have more than five acres or you have to have five acres but you can only have X number of chickens you know what I'm saying yeah I mean maybe I'd have to limit the number because otherwise they could do a a a how do you say hundreds of chickens roosters which I believe is more of the issue yeah right they're the some of them now can I might be wrong but Sarah do you know some ordinances in some cities say you can have chickens but not roosters corre that's like in know that's in a more residential or maybe you see you can have X number of chickens and only one rooster yeah you know you could limit the number of roosters maybe that would help do I mean I'm just picturing a property that continues to get more and more farm animals without a hsees like it just becomes a huge nuisance and I mean the the property down here already has things that break free frequently [Laughter] so well staff what do you think Paul I mean you guys have to deal with the nuisance and with the calls do you see you think it would be worth looking into some of our ordinances in terms of limitating limiting certain things well I think you know it's probably more of a legal question but even if we were to change the think why not don't know um I mean I think when I mean I guess they make legal argument that this legal at one point that's a zoning matter and I don't know if it's not part of our zoning ordinance I don't know if they can make that argument but I don't know sounds like the neighbors will take pictures for us oh yeah for a public safety perspective I think it's this isn't a widespread issue I'm more focused on what can we do to get through this property are being a horrible yeah this isn't just one person calling about and you're making matters so much worse I mean pretty soon they could have a new place a larger place they paying to fight this ridiculous man I don't know obviously what we've said so far is not getting true I'm hoping the letter will help but my guess they tested everything to me so they issues well I think for tonight's discussion we agree you should send that doesn't B the city to do makes that necessary notification so the city has options should the problem continue discussions okay and then is there anything else you want to bring back regarding this chicken issue or rooster issue that's relatively new so we don't have really any yet okay so maybe once we I assume that neighbors will start call usly okay callone us okay well then if you talk to the neighbors they have to speak up I would think in just knowing the rural area and what the calls we get that if you start messing with the animal numbers that you're going to ruffle more feathers per se than you might want to given you got just one situation here cuz most people do comply you know and they move out here for that and they're on larger parcels and it's not an issue and that's what they want you know so they're good neighbors and we're not right right okay so then we'll go down the nuisance path with the dogs and then we'll go down the nuisance path with the chicken need be but there's but there's no teeth in any of this that they just keep becoming a nuisance they just them and you know eventually you can take them and then I don't you can actually take can take ownership of the animals we might have a petting Su a three strike Ru or something okay all right well it's too so I think you have your marching so we will um adjourn for now so that we can take a break so we can fix the hopefully fix this um with that is there a motion to adjourn move thank you second second that c first all those in favor signify with El opposed motion passes by both