[0:05] Mayor Luke Hellier: all right we'll call this uh October 23rd work session to order if you join me for a moment [0:24] Mayor Luke Hellier: silence Al to the flag of the United States of America into the Republic for stands one nation under God indivisible with liy and justice for all on to item number two which is citizen comments here who has look like okay moving on to item 36a the fire department facility study and I think we'll turn over Chief Meer for that [0:42] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: good evening mayor and Council MERS I'm gonna actually introduce news Quinn and Brooke from cnh Architects so they were the uh group that spent since April with us going through our facility needs as far as the fire stations [1:10] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: go we met monthly looking at kind of our short-term and long-term needs for the fire departments and with that I'll turn that over to you [1:16] Quinn Hudson (Architect): okay thank you um I'm Quinn Hudson and one of the principal of cnh and with me is Brook Jacobson another principal um and uh getting the PowerPoint up but um but it's just a pleasure to be here tonight and and meet with you and tell you a little bit more about what the study outcomes and certainly feel free to ask questions anywhere along the way or else be tying questions that the need um a little bit about us just quickly uh we are a full service midsize architectural firm uh build a 50 years experience and we specialize in Public Safety project [1:55] Quinn Hudson (Architect): particularly by with over 20 new and remodeled St and that that number of studies is going so with that um the process that we went to I'll give a little idea of what uh we we did in in the study process uh first of all there was a lot of Staff interviews and learning more about the stations tours of the stations things like that um we've talked about what the changing needs of the station are and how that impacts their operations now and into the future and what are you know some of the issues that the facilities hav't been experiencing over time we really got to know what you know what the current state is and some of the things about the future uh we then went into a [2:40] Quinn Hudson (Architect): detailed review of each building and the sites around them uh looking at their layouts uh what they're you know get them in the plans looking at really what's available in those buildings um complete walk through and and study of that and we also looked at city ordinance requirements for any EXP expans related things ENT to identify the need you know the constraints within the site and then did some comparisons of that to fire station design standards uh uh that would be typical in in new remodeled faili youing you know at this time uh and from that we develop a space needs program that we lists what the needs for each station are uh you know [3:26] Quinn Hudson (Architect): looking into the future uh for equipment for Staffing for operations and flow with that uh we I'll give you a little overview of of really quickly of each station so station one or or holy o uh was built in 1985 it was remodeled twice once in 95 once 22 uh and metalor additions so it gives the the base building age of 38 years uh it's uh just short of 12,000 Square F feet and then specifically we touch an apparatus there's four apparatus Bays two of which are back in and then two of which will then be drives through uh station two uh which is a a [4:11] Quinn Hudson (Architect): do uh built in 1976 a little bit older uh been remodeled or editioned in 85 91 and 2003 so even the last of that was 20 years ago uh 47 years old for the base building small station at just under 6,000 the also has four apparatus Bas three of which are back in so only one which is P station three on Kenrick was built in 90 uh in 88 excuse me it's not been remodeled during that time um it's a again a 5,41 foot a relatively small station uh with two at Rus space uh one which is back in the other which is p through and [4:59] Quinn Hudson (Architect): station four uh which is built in 2002 that's some modeling in 2012 uh making the base Building 21 years old uh this is a little bit larger again at 12,632 Square ft uh and again on the apparatus base we have three apparatus BS one which is back and the other two are both so what I'm going to go through a little bit on this is we looked at the conditions of the stations and and really identif some of the shortcomings there's a lot of similarities between them so rather than really looking at each one individually the the report does a little bit more of that but we're going to evaluate them overall because there's a lot of repetition of what what the issues and concerns are within the facilities so with that um first of all [5:48] Quinn Hudson (Architect): uh you know top of the things we look at is how are the the building position for firefighter Health there has been a lot of uh new information and change in the design of fire stations and and for that matter just the fire service in the past 10 years particularly related to health uh there's been a lot of information and studies that have determined that firefighters are uh are exposed and and and uh develop cancer at a rate many times the uh that of the general population and it has a lot to do with what they're exposed to during their their work particularly in in fire situations uh where the toxins of plastics and other chemicals that are now common place in in players um are [6:36] Quinn Hudson (Architect): part of what they're exposed to and and that they personally as well as as uh on equipment and gear bring that back to the station and so there's things we look at there um other things that we look at is is mental health that's also significant area that U um we we have information on you can back up one more if you could I I'm going couple there you go yeah there so I want to talk specifically on carsen separation uh and we look at buildings that having hot cold zones and that's you know in in the new Fire Station design process the evaluation whether the orb model we're looking at how do we separate the areas that the toxin are brought in until they decontaminate [7:23] Quinn Hudson (Architect): and and work on that uh and so that's something that just doesn't exist in a current station none of you stations have that developed at this time at all nor would I expect them to given they weren't built in the last 10 years um but that's and then vehic exhausted a piece of that they while there are overall systems in the air uh in some of the buildings there none of them are kipe connected exhaust systems uh additionally uh there's not adequate decontamination areas typically now in in a um fire station standards we would have areas where you would bring the gear separate it from the rest and decontaminate that clean it uh dry it and bring it back that's in the current stations uh the gears and the [8:09] Quinn Hudson (Architect): decontamination all just mixed together in in within the station and uh those toxins are available um in mental health support there is um you know some facilities for sure but there uh there certainly would be typically expanded workout and and Fitness areas there's also commonly looked at areas for quiet uh to come back from uh Sometimes some very serious situations that they uh are put in and uh have that opportunity to decompress and relax from that and try to move beyond the some of the of the day [8:55] Quinn Hudson (Architect): okay um and within that the other thing that we looked at you know as things are changing is uh uh providing areas for uh sleep uh and dorm areas obviously as a department transitions into having some uh full-time staff that you're looking at doing uh you have uh a need for for those kind of dorm areas and when we do that we look at providing uh quiet separated uh areas where sleep can be supported as much as possible because we know that they can be interrupted at any time so that's finally um you know or next I should say we look at safety uh throughout the stations uh you know [9:41] Quinn Hudson (Architect): drive-thru bays in general are are safer they're not backing in through the opening a quicker response uh return around coming back um and then also looking at separation outside the building for zoning of um apparatus and public flow and some of the stations that's a little more mixed and it's not very clearly defined as we'd like to see in a new station for for best safety and additionally in safety uh there just in general there's a lot of National Best Practices that we uh incorporate in in uh new fire stations uh that aren't uh typically seen here building codes that at are changed over time things that are more hazards like [10:28] Quinn Hudson (Architect): you can see the stripe in the middle there that step that can be common tripping activity is just not done anymore in stations and then probably uh clearance around apparatus as you can see in in both the middle and the right uh photo there that uh apparatus have grown over the years and uh many stations uh do don't have sufficient room for the safe movement of the firefighters around them as they're preparing to respond so I think the last thing I'd like to point out here that I think I didn't mention earlier but all the stations have the turnout gear in the apparatus Bay and that is again something that in the the past 10 years we've looked at at eliminating uh as much as we can it reduces toxins in the [11:16] Quinn Hudson (Architect): in the Bays it also provides for a longer life of of turnout gear because uh to reduce the exposure to UV raids that that can have impact on them um another item that that we looked at that we see in uh today's uh fire station is built-in training features uh this is an opportunity for the firefighters to be honing their skills practicing the things that they have to uh recertify on and do it in a frequent and easy uh location we often look at areas where you know from stairwells that we otherwise would have oper opportunities to go from an apparatus Bay up to an upper Little Storage level to uh train inside [12:01] Quinn Hudson (Architect): outside uh but one of the advantages of building some of these items into the fire uh fire station is that um if they're they're training they don't have to leave the area they're available to respond and if a call does come in they can set those things aside and respond so it has less impact on the department and allows for you know more frequent training here we're showing outside here and this one moves to inside opportunities there's a lot of training that we look at building in whether it be a smoke rescue uh repelling dropping into comined space in these or um uh floor breach some of these other training features on the left is a it's a just a training element that you can practice uh rescuing uh [12:47] Quinn Hudson (Architect): people out of basements residences so you can break in through the floor pull them up uh drop down in things like that on the right hand side is is opportunities to uh rescue off of a higher level so this is this typically we have a little bit taller Tower within new fire stations and uh that is high enough that you can use a ladder truck you can't normally just uh practice anywhere so those and then finally there's other opportunities that we build into new stations that would be typical things on the left we're looking at uh you're learning on practice uh uh fire panels so that uh then they can learn what to do when they come in and see different situations or rescuing off [13:35] Quinn Hudson (Architect): of balconies and other things like that from the outside so that's a quick overview of training uh those are things that are not generally present at any of the stations here and you know it's something that is an opportunity that new facilities Ty typically have uh finally the next areas we look at is some shortage to the space and that's significant throughout uh especially with some of the smaller stations uh that really there's just everything's packed into the same area there's not the separation there's just not room for everything that that's needed and certainly not room for expand within that and then um and that impacts you know that shortage of space on the organization impacts the ability for a [14:22] Quinn Hudson (Architect): well you know organized functional building and uh certainly impacts operational icy within that building and the last thing I'll mention is just opportunity for uh sustainability and energy conservation obviously older buildings were't built with the same amount of energy conservation that you would have in in a new building or in a remodeled facility and so that's just something where obviously some of the conditions there that there's higher energy use than would in today's fire station over to Brook to cover some of the uh station options [15:08] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): so part of our process was to evaluate uh the building program and the existing conditions of each uh facility to determine the scope of demolition remodel addition or if a new building would best meet the needs of the department now and well into the future uh we looked at many different iterations uh for each of the sites to determine what was feasible at each site um to meet their needs and also what made fiscal sense um for each site um so we'll look at kind of the the final options out of all the different iterations that we went through um in this presentation um so we're going to look at is station one there are two options for this one so the the first option is a remodel and addition approach um what we looked at with this is that the [15:55] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): majority of the existing structure could remain in place and we could add on to the north side of the existing facility and the South Side so you can see the existing footprint is that Dash red line on the first and second floors um taking this approach there are some concessions that have to be made uh and that so that we're only meeting our primary needs not all of our ideal best practice needs and some of that it is in regards to some of the spaces aren't quite the ideal size they need to be because we're trying to fit into that existing footprint a little bit um or as we reutilizing the existing apparatus Bays they're not quite the ideal width uh and depth that we would like to see in a brand new station uh however we felt it was you know the department was comfortable reutilizing those bays and then adding [16:41] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): on a new bay that would get us the longer and um then longer width or longer depth excuse me and wider Bay that would help um the first floor in this is a little bit more spread out we're a little constricted you'll see on um when we get to the next slide um based off off of site restrictions so the first floor our public entrance is on the far right and our in the green and our station office is in that is the light blue and the lower or kind of middle left corner there so it's kind of a long distance for them to go if somebody does arrive at the front entrance uh for public use um and then the second floor you can see on the right side you can see the again the outline is in there in the red and we're just fitting some of the existing spaces into there [17:27] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): so uh so on the site plan can see the again the outline in red of where the existing station is how this is situated on site so you can see on that North edge of the property we're quite tight to um the heritage site on the other side which is kind of what's restricting uh the building from uh being a little bit more efficient and it's more spread out in this layout but we do have good separation between the public traffic and the firefighter and apparatus traffic you can see there's a separate parking lot um and drive for public parket on the far right taking them to the main entrance um with how close we are to the site we have a very minimal buffer between the Heritage building and uh the addition some of [18:14] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): those spaces are public but then also Fitness and some of the residents so they're quite close to the adjacent to the Heritage Center there um we are keeping the apparatus response uh exit in the lower left corner the same as what it currently is now which is still very close to that roundabout which does cause some issues in in congestion and getting them out um but with this approach we were able to add a new apparatus bypass lane on the south side of the building allowing apparatus to flow from east to west on this site without having to go out into traffic like they currently do now to access um either side uh in this a remodel and addition approach would require phase Construction to keep the station operational uh for the duration [19:01] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): of construction uh so this is our option two this is a allnew building approach in this option uh because it's an all new building we are able to meet all of our uh best practices and programming needs um the layout's a more efficient than the previous layout that you saw we don't have those restrictions um as we're able to move around on site or position the building differently site so we can we don't have that kind of elongated addition that we had on the last one um the public entrance on this is very close to the station offices so if anybody does come they can help them right away and all the apparatus bays are an ideal and [19:47] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): length you can see it uh positioned on site the existing uh station is kind of under the left side of the building there um covered up in this approach uh but with this again we also have good separation of public and firefighter and apparatus traffic now the public parking is um enters off of hoio instead of off of County Road 50 on the previous one the main entrance is very visible off of hoio as well from the roundabout there um we have much a greater buffer between the the station and the Heritage Center as well um and the apparatus now responds on to uh County Road 50 and is much further away from the roundabout helping that response traffic in the all new building approach uh this would also [20:33] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): require phase construction to keep uh station operations operational for the duration of construction just because uh it does overlap with an existing station moving on to station two um with this station this site we only have one option on this site and that is an all new building approach and the reason behind this is with the ex existing station and the way it was built uh the way that specifically the existing apparatus Bays were constructed uh they are not able to be expanded upon and that's kind of one of the first things that we look at and some of those images you saw earlier that Quinn went through are from station two where they physically just cannot maneuver around the apparatus that are in there um so [21:20] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): with that we would have to have torn down the apparatus base and there's very little building left so the I um the only feasible option in this was to go with an all new building um so with the all new building on site all of our best practices and programming needs can be met uh the building layout is very efficient uh we now have a um public entrance the public entrance is Right adjacent to the station offices and our apparatus bays are of an ideal width and length uh so on this site though um we it's a little tight to fit the building in but we're able to make it work um some the issues that arise is that with that roundabout construction it does impede on what our buildable area is on the site you can see the property lines [22:05] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): do go out into that roundabout um but we do have good separation of the public and fire fire firefighter apparatus we're directing all of the public uh traffic um to the kind of north side of the site off of DOD and the um apparatus will still respond where they currently do now onto Flag Staff um they are using that same entrance it is still quite close to um the roundabout which does pose some issues for them and in congestion uh the public entrance is uh quite visible from DOD in this approach uh unlike the current station now it's kind of hard to find um even though this is an allnew building approach like uh the allnew build previous allnew building approach this would require phase construction because we are [22:51] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): building the new building on top of the existing building so moving to station three um on this uh site we also have two options again to look at the first option is our Remodel and addition approach so again the majority of the existing structure would remain in place um you can see the existing footprint in that red dashed line again kind of in the center of the first floor there um but again with this some concessions do need to be made so uh it's because we're either trying to fit within um the existing footprint for some spaces or we have some inefficient spaces you can see that wedge in between the North Edition and the existing building um giving us some less than [23:36] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): ideal sizes in in some areas uh our first floor is also really spread out in this approach uh we have an addition on the North side and the south side and with this our our public entrance is kind of hidden on the backside of the building and it's right adjacent to the fitness and residential area where the public would enter this facility faity so looking at the site plan again we have good separation of public and firefighter and apparatus traffic the public uh traffic comes in off of the roundabout and all of the firefighter and apparatus uh comes in off of Kenrick there's uh no room on this site for a bypass lane for apparatus [24:21] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): unfortunately so they would have to if they were trying to go from um the west to east side of the building they would have to come out onto Kenrick to re-enter the site to access the backside of the station you also see there is a sort of in the center of the site there's an existing Communications building um this restructured where the additions could go um and also restricted apparatus flow with onsite so that's how we're kind of at this more elongated footprint with this uh option our main entrance traffic um in the app respon response traffic all has to flow through the roundabout um except for anything heading north on Kenrick in this approach and then with the remodel and [25:08] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): addition this would also require phase construction to keep the station operational construction it's why in this design why that Communications building can't be uh that's something that the city would have to make a decision on whether or not that it's feasible or or worth it um [25:27] Mayor Luke Hellier: it's not a city it's a it's it's owned by Frontier at this time so it have to be purchased from them and all of their stuff would have to be relocated it it's frontier's main head in to the city so there's a lot of stuff there have to it's not impossible it just be costly [25:47] Councilmember John Bermel: yeah just seems to be in a very yes yeah yeah when you're there on site it seems like it's on the edge of the property because of all the trees that are there but all of that tree is on that North portion of property and so when we looked at it it really kind of is almost right in the center of the property unfortune and so when you go to this next option where you're on the other side of it is that acquiring more property y got it [26:11] Councilmember John Bermel: did you guys consider that site the impact of the 35 and 50 interchange on traffic [26:24] Public Works Director Paul Oehme: we did not analyze it I don't know if you have any thoughts on we did that you mean traffic through death that roundabout is already yeah that um that'll stay like it is the impacts are further up on Kenrick okay the corner there right where the um Pizza Pizza well not the Pizza Hut but the um the strip mall where um [27:13] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): yeah so for our second option we looked at an allnew building approach um again with all new building we're able to me in all of our best practices and programming um needs uh the layout is very efficient our public entrance can be very close to the station offices and our apparatus bays are of an ideal with depth for this so moving to the site plan this is what you you mentioned but this would uh require purchasing the adjacent site to the east to make this work um this uh creates a good uh separation between public traffic and firefighter and apparatus traffic uh the public traffic is still coming off of the roundabout like it does in the previous option [27:59] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): however in this approach our all of our firefighter and apparatus are now um entering and exiting off of 175th Street which gets them away from the roundabout and the issues that the roundabout poses with construction or congestion and uh affecting response times um the public entrance is very visible from Kenrick as well as the roundabout area the communications building in this approach does not affar in any way with the overall layout of the site um the uh there's also room for now a bypass lane on the far East side of the site so that apparatus can move from the south side of the site to the north side of the site when they want to train on the backs side unlike the first option where we didn't have that so in this all [28:45] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): new building approach uh this would allow for the existing station to remain fully operational until the building is all done and then um the station can move into the new facility [28:51] Mayor Luke Hellier: that's a question and I think might have gotten asked in a team's meeting um in this option the addition is around on the hard cost around 12 and a half million but building a brand new building is only 1.3 it seems like it that Gap there seems like it should be more either one way you explain kind of how that is corre sure if you want we yeah cover cost but I can [29:32] Quinn Hudson (Architect): start and you can certainly go in part of it is that there there is a significant amount of of heavy remodel in the uh addition you know in the other station plus a lot of all new addition anyway and then with the phasing that's another piece that adds cost that would not apply to this all new Option so those two things are what makes it a lot closer than you might have thought uh given uh the fact that it some does use existing space but of course there's also land FL that we don't have in that number yeah makes it go up [30:13] Mayor Luke Hellier: well that's in the hard cost it's in the saw cost I was just trying to compare apples to apples the saw cost are kind of the same with the exception of the land [30:19] Quinn Hudson (Architect): yeah so then I would have the reverse question for station one why is that one so much more more expensive for new construction than the remodel I think we're back to on that one there's more of the existing building that's light Remodel and that really brings you know cost out we're looking at that light remodal cost so some there in the 250 or so dollars square foot or or less depending on just what happens in each some spaces is made to be painting but uh we're all new constru ruction is you know closer to the uh 400 you know over 45 CH so it it's just really that [31:07] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): ability to use more of the existing building in that layout that it worked for there's less of it that work that way in this I'll say to the station one the existing footprint is twice the size of station three so you have more areas that have uh more remodel than we do at station three so that's where that price starts to you're just remodeling more than our on station three [31:39] Councilmember Dan Wolter: sure I guess is there a big design difference between station a new station one and a new station three [31:48] Quinn Hudson (Architect): they're very similar L for for any of the all new approaches they're they're very similar [31:51] Councilmember Dan Wolter: is does the city own that land on by company Egan so B so is the land acquisition uh one and I'll I just throw out one thing we did talk about is you do have that west side of if if you were to go with this approach you do have that west side of the property that's not being used if that wanted to be parceled off for something else and sold there could be a tradeoff there or use for public benefit yeah bigger FR IDE [32:33] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): we can move to the station four um so station 4 uh with the due to the size of the site um the fact that the existing facility was relative it's the newest of the stations um and our ability to expand the existing apparatus space to get the ideal um length on these the remodel and addition approach uh was what made the most sense on this particular site so so we only have the one option for station 4 of a remodel in addition so again with this the majority of the existing structure remains in place you can see the red dashed outline of the existing footprint on both mainly the first floor there's just a real small mezzanine on the second floor you can see that small square there but um the apparatus Bay is the now our deal with in Lins with the addition um to the existing Bays plus we have an another [33:26] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): additional Bay that's add on to the South um we do have some smaller concessions that had to be made with some of the spaces uh just again fitting within the footprint um but we are meeting all of our primary needs just not all of our ideal perfect needs and then um and some of that is is actually in actually is in the addition with our new apparatus Bay Edition on the south it's a little bit narrower than we would typically see part of that is to maintain our um excuse me bypass lane thank you it's was blinking on the word bypass lane on the south so if you want to go to the next slide so now you can see um the layout on site the dash red line again is the existing footprint you can see that [34:12] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): bypass lane on the south we're trying to make sure that we maintain that so apparatus can flow from east to west on this side without having to go out onto the road uh but again we have good separation of public and then the firefighter apparatus traffic on S with the public on the North side the firefighter um and apparatus on the east and south sides this moves the main entrance to the north side of the building versus the east side of the building um so with that approach it's not visible from 180 in this design um and then our apparatus response remains where it currently is uh on the west side of the building we have access then uh from that side street directly on to 185th Street um and then with again with [34:59] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): the remodel and addition this would require phase construction as well uh to make to maintain the uh keep the oper the station operational during construction so the last thing we looked at um was what if we were to go from four stations down to three and combine two of the stations into one slightly larger station so this is the combined station approach um so this would first reduce quantity of the facilities that you have you would go down to three instead of four uh with and then all of our best practices and programming needs can be met in this larger station our building layout is um more efficient than some of the remodel in addition approaches on the previous sites and uh [35:44] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): our public entrance uh is close to our admin offices that would move to this location uh our apparatus phas are of an ideal width and length and there's potential in the scenario to um for additional public spaces if desired or room for expansion is needed as well because we'd be starting with a new site so for this combined station approach um we should be combining stations to4 apologies I don't think I said that um we uh looked at using a a generic site of roughly four to four and a half acres is what we need for the square footage of what this combined station would use for the overall design um a site would need to potentially be purchased for this unless the city did [36:31] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): have existing land somewhere that that could be used um but with this approach we can pretty much meet all of um our best practices so again we have good separation between the public traffic and our firefighter and apparatus traffic be situated so that it's visible um from the street depending upon where that occurs um and then we will have room for bypass lane uh for the apparatus to maneuver on site without having to go out into traffic on um the main street with this approach we did look at the utilizing the existing uh Central maintenance facility um and what what we looked at what the site available at that current property is roughly about [37:17] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): 2.77 Acres so when we to meet all best practices when we say we uh we needed about four to four and a half acres that just would significantly impact um our programming needs for the site if we had to try to fit what the department would like to see down from you know four to four and a half acre site to 2.77 acres um so significant concessions would have to be made at that point um so but with building a combined station this would keep two stations fully operational throughout the duration of construction with with uh no impacts to either station when the station would uh finish Construction the two stations could then combine and move into one and then also with moving to new site yes there potentially is an [38:04] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): additional cost if few are purchasing property you now have two existing facilities that could either be repurposed for other uh City needs or potentially sold as well [38:15] Councilmember Michelle Volk: I have a series of questions yeah okay um how much of the training that we kind of covered is not part of the able facility in burville [38:29] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: so able is strictly for live bur we do some training there uh as far as like the the stuff that was highlighted in the report Stu is the ladder training stuff that can be done at the station so we're not taking a truck or that station to a different city to do the training um on the combined [38:52] Councilmember Michelle Volk: sites I was there a conversation about fact that station three is a lot more marketable as a piece of property than station two I mean there's no other use station two was on so I think you'd have a very hard time um sell you might not have answered for that but that's just a thought I want to throw you talk about combining um [39:27] Quinn Hudson (Architect): I think part of the discussion about which stations were combined to create that it has a bit to do with iing the station you if we're going down to three stations where in the city and and uh would those three stations be and with best response time for best response time right uh so with one and three um in the portions of C they're in and two and four combined it could be positioned to get optimal response time around the city [40:11] Councilmember Michelle Volk: talk about just going down to two [40:15] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: we did not look that no from Geographic graphically that that spans or that increases our response time to whichever side of that City if we go to two stations [40:27] Councilmember Michelle Volk: so when I talk to Burnsville because I was trying to figure out how they did that they said their response time is hitting all the marks and they are in a really odd spot considering their um City size Etc um and yet they're hitting the marks so um I'm just curious you know if we even had that discussion about just dropping down to two [40:53] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: so two things with Burnsville their their square mileage is half of Lakeville I think they're at 17 square miles or 38 square miles the city said it was higher okay uh and then looking at response times as we do today right now we're they Staffing stations so they have those trucks already staffed so that automatically increases our response time so right now with us in on in the role that we're in in our staffing model of paging firefighters that's just that Delay from a response time site but if we had two sites they'd be FL St like birds just a scrub correct but we're still trying to you know the geography is what's hurting us today [41:14] Councilmember Michelle Volk: see I have a hard I don't understand site four not being I mean to me if you think about now 185th is going to go all way through it's to me logistically is the easiest way to get anywhere in the city now right because you can go literally any direction right quickly so I don't I don't understand a Banning for um I don't get that so you can keep going but I I just want to put that out there because that just [41:43] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: do one other thing I'll say about Burnsville is they have mentioned that they sort of do have a a backup plan if they foresee somewhat in the future they might have to build a third satellite station somewhere based on all volumes as everything keeps increasing um in the geography so if they know that more than like you know they might not just be at two stations um in the future but that's what works for them right now [42:00] Quinn Hudson (Architect): okay I'm going to cover some of the cost estimate portions of this uh first we'll be looking at short-term cost that would be to do some very minor remodeling to each of the stations uh to just get a sleeping room uh this would not be the approach that you would find in any you know standard uh operation you know it would not be you know what we would see in most facilities but certainly would get you that initial opportunity as you are adding some full-time staff in the next years uh We've looked at each of the stations and I'll talk about them um doesn't mean that you would need to do all of them uh but we are looking at what it would take to to get uh just a few uh dorm rooms and a couple upgrades a shower and some of them uh to for each of the stations so first of all in station one uh there is a hard cost of of a little over $45,000 to add those rooms um have a factor for doing it in an occupied building um and then some contingency so our total um look for that would be about uh 515,000 so um station two the cost a little bit a little more involved we're doing more items in that uh so it's 84,000 uh for hard cost and occupied factor and contingency gives us about a $95,000 remodel to do that and I should mention that even in these far once we start adding dorm rooms we're taking something else away to make that happen and most cases it's it's uh education classroom uh that that is some up he said to is no longer available there and they still need to do that in someplace so there are downsides and why we're definitely looking at Short Term the offices too some excuse me um station three hard cost to 756 occupied again and contingency brings us to 85655 for remodeling that station and station 4 is H very similar 75 975 uh with all the factors gets us up to an $86,000 dorm room remodel process [44:32] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: I was going to say the plan right now would be the first station to do this would be station four that would be the six that we're planning on hiring next year would be based at four and that would be the immediate need to do some sleeping cour that's what Dy crew would say [44:54] Councilmember Michelle Volk: my question to you guys I guess is after reading the these materials Etc um I feel like in some ways we're putting the the cart before the horse on hiring the um the firefighters ahead of actually having facilities because now you're doing short-term costs and then doing long-term costs and so um I I almost feel like we should you know eventually as we talk about this um consider just having a delay depending on what our solution is to the situation not that um I'm not saying that we we will have the full-time firefighers it's just really is it now or do we wait a little bit until we actually have um things worked out so I don't know just kind of think about that because it's driving me nuts to have these short-term costs and then long-term costs you know the the depending on what decisions that we make and and the Really the discussion too is you know how many stations so [46:30] Councilmember Dan Wolter: well related to that I ask the chief so if we have six full-time firefighters they're proposed the budget gets passed they get higher what timing are we looking at in terms of them being working on a station [46:42] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: for April 1 is our our timeline to have them on board ready to go as far as that they were responding and then you know we're looking at adding more we'd like to get up to the 18 number but you're talking probably pass that at least another year year and a half down the road a year down the road before you added another group of full flame firefighters so the goal that was proposed would be six firefighters for the next until 2027 yeah and the safer Grant piece is that we will plan on reapplying for that Grant opportunity when it opens again for the next cycle so we would do the shortterm fixes in each station with each six unless we able to do as station so 24 maybe beginning in 23 we would start the short term at station four those firefighters would start and be housed at a station four 25 we would made similar improvements to one of the other stations and those six would be stationed at that one with those shortterm fixes and then probably a shortterm fix at a third station as well for those until we decided not exactly what the long-term options for long-term finals but we're not [48:01] Councilmember Dan Wolter: but the one of the suggestions and combining is you lose station four so now you would put $86,000 into converting something that you wouldn't necessarily be keeping you know so some of these Wages that's how I look at it I mean you know it it just does still doesn't make sense to me it's it's um I just want to see us do this as responsibly as possible [48:47] Councilmember Dan Wolter: I agree just we're looking at you know 50 to 60 million dollar of capital cost here and if you're looking at $86,000 per station is a lot and I think we need to consider what the longterm solution is um the 86 for a station that that we're GNA sell do you see what I'm trying to say I do so that that's that's why I'm you know um you say that's where the first group's going to go but why would I want to put the money into the first group going there if that's not a station I [49:10] Councilmember Joshua Lee: the key I I would say and I part of it is I don't think this has been part of the conversation I still don't think we should close station for it doesn't any sense but we still have to figure out where we're going to locate our training and our shooting range and in theory you know station 4 could be that location if we were going to ban it as a fire station we can still have it as an asset so I wouldn't feel like it' be a total loss cost if we're going to invest money for the other training in there like you know what I'm saying so but why do I need dorm rooms in a in a training facility [49:55] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: Well I can be something I mean think the of a shower and locker and if I'm just saying if you do that we need to know that pretty soon because you're going to be hiring an architect at your next meeting to start to work on the old Public Works facility [50:11] Councilmember Joshua Lee: oh that that's why I I'm not Comfort I mean I to me City facilities should be as collocated as possible we're going to be doing infrastructure somewhere and we have the land and station 4 we have tunneling Station 4 shooting range want a shooting range here [50:23] Mayor Luke Hellier: school you don't have school people will be going crazy [50:27] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: usable land for station 4 is St basically the front side of this building here because we got the water water tanks that are right here you okay well then this map is deceiving but useful well this this shows one of the options that I think you're going towards is possibly the use of so they're talking about doing a lot of the training possibly in a new or ventilated fire station I think there's that opportunity to take some of those elements have them incorporated into the public safety training facility then that would reduce the overall cost of a future fire station that's possible at a new location so I think there's a blend that can kind of happen there a little bit but I don't know if this fire station 4 location is the a good piece for our Public safet Training facil I realize that you have another slide to go through for the the other cost but not trying to get ahead of the game but I really just want to see what we come up with for a plan first and then talk about how we make it work [51:56] Councilmember John Bermel: if we had buildings that could accommodate alltime fire burs would that make the grant more palatable to be accepted we were in a position to be going for a grant without buildings that could hold the people [52:13] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: uh the grant doesn't really rate you on whether you have facilities of hous them it rates you on the need to have the fire there for a response side of things okay does that make sense yeah no I'm just asking yeah that's not a question that comes up like do you have housing facilities it's more of what are your goals you know your call volume all of those things that play into that response side of things I was just trying to figure out if there was an advantage that we could go after to be able to be successful with f right [52:48] Quinn Hudson (Architect): okay I'll I'll continue on with the rest of the cost estimates uh so for each of the multiple options whether it be addition remodel or new we did a separate cost assment for that under station one option one was the addition remodel approach um and again we have hard costs phasing factors soft costs uh and contingency with a total of 15.8 million for for that option uh the all new option in station one option two uh brings us to a total uh construction cost of uh 21. almost n million noticeable difference between those two um station two there was just the one option which was the all new um that was a hard cost of 14.3 with phasing Factor soft costs and contingency a total of 19. 2 million but that's that sa from there [54:05] Councilmember Michelle Volk: is there cost saving to be on clothing station like how much is the cost to operate so if you $100,000 a year in electricity I mean what what are we talking about you Clos and don't use [54:19] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: very well obviously be utilities I would have to look at the budget as far as those line items for that but yes there is that cost it's also you're going to reduce Staffing the equipment you know the gear your fire combining you're not you're not having same pie same thing we're going to reduce down in in our fleet size okay and all of those things that go along with having that station bringing station together and of course maintenance long term as well maintaining one building red two [54:53] Quinn Hudson (Architect): um excuse me station three at the option one again addition remodel um hard cost of 12 million with the factors and soft costs we get a total of 16 million for that um station three option two um which is the all new 13.8 million um big you know we're talking about why part of why they're different you can just see here one almost half a million dollars in phasing Factor uh that uh is saved between the two uh and done a total of 17.77% um and station four is hard cost of around 11 million uh with all the other elements gets down to 15 million total cost um and then the combined station we show a hard cost of 19.9 so basically 20 million uh additional soft cost no phasing Factor uh contingency and a total construction cost of 25 million uh for that approach all these are are excuse me all these are current costs and uh so that's uh and uh something to consider as well so [56:07] Mayor Luke Hellier: well just to clarify the 25,000 on the combined station one does not include L land [56:14] Quinn Hudson (Architect): that do not included land that is correct so when we were looking at the uh station three where we're adding that was factored in because land was defined and we could give a value to that um on the other we we did right no I get it I just want to keep that in mind that that is the one that there's more cost to it yet yeah um and then just kind of our our seery of what we see and what recommend um short-term fixes U we're starting with with model patient four which be pretty much um right away so that it' be ready for an April uh Staffing update uh then next year it would be station one though that would serve uh the city's needs best with the positioning of those full-time staff at those locations uh with with review from the Department then our next recommendation would be the combined station two and four the single uh combined approach um and again uh We've covered some of those but some of the reasons why we're recommending that for uh being uh a more e iCal and efficient approach uh course it reduces overall construction costs um from uh with a from 34 million of the two combined to down to 25 million plus land but definitely a a cost savings with that approach uh long-term maintenance uh the apparat and Equipment would be reduced because you're only uh outfitting uh three stations rather than four uh long-term Staffing would be reduced um and then also by having the new that allows other spots for uh overflow during other construction processes so and [57:51] Councilmember Michelle Volk: what about a combination of one and three instead um putting it out by let's say 70 your three covers kind of our Northwest side of the city right and one is the south east side right and then Eureka Township right get there just as fast either way you've got the freeway you've got the to say when I look at response times today station three is faster just because they access on on the 35 than station one is or even station four that makes sense so of move to think about moving one further west right now and that was in the study is said move at West but they never Define where um but if we start moving too far because our population or our growth really is along the cedar Corridor so now we're going to take a station and move it further away from them especially on the south end of the city if we move it out by 70 and then if we're still going to sta which is our goal is to still have the pay on call or are the firefighters is now we got to look at where's that station in relationship to where they live that's the other pieces that we look at firefighters responding the station if we put fire station closer to 7even there's less housing out there because we used to own land out by the water tower on Kensington and the the housing development that time didn't wouldn't support a station as far as having firefighters respond we still own the land okay well I I guess that's what I was thinking is that we had land out there you got a freeway access to get faster you've got 70 that's been all redone um you know I mean I I'm thinking you can get to Eureka pretty fast and um so I don't know it was just a thought and the the other the reason being I I just the location of fre even though you're going to have it come in off of let's say you go for a total deal and switch the building and make it so that it's coming in off of on or 75th I just the location of it Etc to me is not a very feasible location of all the ones that I thought that this before I got the study I thought that would be the one that would get shut down that two and you know or three so but mostly three so so it might help and we could bring it back up but you know we did the heat maps on all the responses and all this and so we've done the station location study basically and this is in line what yeah I probably should have pulled that study up our highest is station two and one and two's area Cedar cor our highest call volumes is station one along Cedar and then station two going towards branch and Farms [1:01:03] Councilmember Dan Wolter: just thinking about the phasing here so I mean I look at this list your short-term fix we remodel station 4 then station one uh you talked about you know we talked about the need for the environmental safety the mental health all that my guess is that doing those remodels really isn't going to change much of where we're at it's just going to add some sleeping quarters so it's it's a definitely a short-term fix then you do stations combine two stations whatever they are there you get your state-of-the-art facility that covers all of these things my question is is as you look at the other two stations um and you talked about concessions what kind of concessions I mean would we do an addition and Remodel and spend you know lot a lot a lot of money and then just be not be getting what we need I guess that's my question what kind of concessions are there in doing the remodel versus station [1:02:12] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): a lot of the concessions uh just come down to when we went through and and programmed for you know just not look at the the stations themselves but look at what spaces they need as a department to function and what's the ideal square footage for it um when then we take that square footage and we either plug it into a new layout which we get our right perfect layout um in the existing you utilizing the existing buildings and some of the site restrictions we do our best to get those ideal sizes and we often can just with the layout and how we're situated on site so some of the spaces are smaller than we'd like to see for the purp scenario doesn't mean that it won't work and that's what we talked about in some of them that some of those concessions are okay and they're just not that perfect ideal um but it would meet the needs of the department and so they were okay with um some of the instances where we had more minor concessions [1:03:09] Councilmember Dan Wolter: I just don't want to be in a position where we get done with this and go man I wish we would have done this yeah this is too small [1:03:19] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: yeah and as we talked about it some of that is they're also trying to be fiscally responsible so in those meetings we weighed when we had a new Option and an additional remodel you know what trying to be fiscally responsible so could they were they okay making some concessions knowing that the cost would be lower uh versus just coming and saying we need all brand new stations for each facility so and you may find that the the calculus from perspective uh could be different especially when the difference is less like it is on three is on one so certainly still an option out there in that s [1:04:14] Councilmember Dan Wolter: yeah that's that's kind of what I was looking at is you know G for a million more you get a station or whatever but I just we need to be fiscally responsible we need to do what we can afford but there's a difference between well we could used this but this is all usable versus getting something built and all of a sudden looking and going this isn't as usable as I as I thought that's that's my big thing is because yeah definitely we want to be fiscally responsible and it would be great if we could put up four new fire stations that are brand new um that's not going to happen um so we got to figure that out but I just want to make sure that we aren't giving up too much [1:05:07] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): in none of the cases do we feel that price primary goals were not met okay or we wouldn't have uh recommended that at all yeah so like when we talk about for a combined station trying to use the central maintenance facility that would be significant concessions that we we wouldn't even meet your primary goals so that's why we said like that just won't work for that size of station [1:05:27] Mayor Luke Hellier: if you want to add onto station three is there a better location than immediately adjac to it for is there other land within that footprint The Bu instead we didn't analyze anything I don't know if yeah we did not look at that as far as a different location for three no he's saying existing location just not going to the West you're saying yeah oh to use the existing well no I mean well no I'm thinking okay let's say we still want a station in this all neighborhood yep is there a better parcel in this neighborhood that yeah we we did not research that piece [1:06:01] Councilmember Joshua Lee: it a question about what's so we we obviously want to prioritize decontaminate decontamination zones uh dorms and space for equipment but I'm seeing a lot of square flots used for public facing facilities parking lots um and Facilities to date aren't really meant for Public Access except for when there's open houses the whole facility is open MH I to me there's an option here where maybe the these smaller Parcels are not really used at all for public use and we can then maximize our our square footage for for the other priorities [1:06:48] Brooke Jacobson (Architect): yeah so for most of the stations the public use is very minimal we they always do have a certain amount of people that come for blood pressure checks um or just people see a fire station and think that's where they go if they need help um and so some of it it's just it's more so an entry vestle and maybe a conference room uh that they can take somebody in and um either do a blood pressure check or check what their needs are but that conference room can also be used for just station office conference rooms uh the largest one is either the combined station or um station one uh because they have a large classroom in in that could also be used so when they you that's where you do your um uh pancake waffle waffle waffle breakfast so they do have times where the public is coming right now they have to do that in the apparatus space because they just don't have the space for it so it's kind of It's a combination me the parking lot is a huge amount of square footage so that there was no intent for public use that's a lot of space [1:07:34] Quinn Hudson (Architect): when you look at this one we're probably got 10 stalls of of parking for public use that could also be um you know Chief stopping by other staff things too but there will be some public just coming whether you say you know whether we say there's nothing here they come for for those emergencies they come for just checking in for like you say health issues um if we let them just come to the back of the building uh we don't have any spot to to safely have them come so I we have 10 stalls or five stalls or something but we would certainly recommend having some piece of parking that that is separate for [1:08:21] Councilmember Joshua Lee: let me clarify one one thing are you talking more like where it says firefighter parking all of that pement no just really the public side public side I mean is that front yes yeah the option that's in my head that wasn't presented was keeping stations one two three and using four as our Central training facility public facing event space um Central Command for our offices and eliminating all of those items from the precinct stations to maximize for firefighter use uh because we're we're on small footprint [1:09:12] Quinn Hudson (Architect): so I I think what we saying in the other than the parking lot for them to come inside the building there is not extra space that's dedicated to the public other than an entry vestibule and a conference room that's used by the staff as well so it except for at at four one or one excuse me or the you know in that location where we are expecting uh that support and we included it at the combined station because you getting rid of um station 4 and that's where the admin going to go so that's where we talked about then moving that so um and I think we talked about it wouldn't necessarily eliminate the need for some in the public space at station one because that is where you currently are house housing the waffle breakfast and they like to continue because of its location but we could look at whether or not if you went to the combined station if some of the public space could be reduced at station one so that again you were just more had more of the public space at one facility and not between two at that point [1:09:59] Mayor Luke Hellier: and as important as the waffle breakfast is I don't want us to be designed stations around that so I mean we can find a place for that we have to [1:10:29] Councilmember Michelle Volk: can you just say that one more time for me what your initial thought was leaving one two and three with just doing the dorm rooms and then four being the training facility is that what you what I heard yeah me some of the thoughts in my head were trying to keep away from uh land acquisition and keeping our stations positioned in ways that are kind of generally where they should be because I think based on the heat map from other studies that's I think generally those stations are where they should be um but then and I think this is just may some just education to the public but you know just kind of shutting access to those to the public because we'd have our station Cor in the center of the city as and we could remodel that for the SEO combined training use for all the stations but then taking that training space out of and but it sounds like the response is that there's not a ton of that already built in so the public is not built into the other station so we wouldn't be reducing the SI saving cost in those and you see the parking and that's that's true but others once we look at the building itself it's not there is no uh things we can really cut out U to each size and savings what you're kidding well I'm not trying to reduce size I'm trying to use that parking lot to expand things that we may have conceded on um in the design for those buildings [1:11:58] Councilmember Dan Wolter: I see with you I thank you that that didn't catch that part we on station four did we consider it all going to the water treatment facility site to expand is that or staying on the site that's Z [1:12:11] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: well has water tanks all under it water tanks okay and remember we're thinking about expanding and do we have is it just the one fire station that the ambulance will stage at if they need be uh currently their Staffing plan is station two and three two and three I'll say you know the combined station where kind of in our thoughts as far as and I'll say all four all any plan that we were looking at was for the future 10 years down the road plus of that there potentially is an ambulance at every station but the combined station we looked at is if there's an opportunity for whoever has the contract for an ambulance to put them there uh because they I'll say they want to move from Apple Valley be more centrally located in that call a DOD seedar Corridor so that they're between all three cities so so the designs take that take that we took that into consideration that potential there [1:13:00] Councilmember Joshua Lee: yeah that's another thing like because I hear what you're saying Josh about the public access but public if they know an ambulance is there they're going to come there if somebody's not feeling well or whatever see it stop it that's not I don't think that's what you're talking about I think you're talking about more hey come here glasses classes and stuff right and we're not looking that at all the stations [1:13:42] Councilmember Joshua Lee: well I think the immediate conversation is that we need to come around on dorm facilities for the six I think obviously right the rest of know if you're still I mean I'm not convinced on any this is like and we're not asking you to tonight yeah I mean understand response times and what happens when hary fifth goes through I mean I just and the problem with land I mean we have we run into this problem of businesses when I come in there's no we're combined site where are we going what's the only one that would just want to hold off until we actually had a plan and then decide to do dorm facility for our six and I totally get recover from I just think because we went to the conversation of that as part of the budget that to me there could be a lost you know we could be losing out 86,000 by if we end up in a facility ends up closed so I get that I understand what you're saying but at the same time you know we decided to move down high in six firefighters and we have to have facility so but again I not convinc four we should close for it all so that's why I'm more willing to say that we should renovate it because I think closing four is a bad I think you got to look at the time frame too you're not that 86,000 isn't going towards nothing we're not losing all of that because even if you put that 86,000 in that facility and say you move say move forward with the rest of this plan you've got years of Construction and design you got at least two years before you could build your first station I'm thinking so you're going to have those people on there for the next they going to use it that 6,000 for the next two years at least at a minimum before the other stations are ready for occupation or we decide what we're doing in the future so have six of them in there and if you're saying two years now we're gonna have 12 in there not in there not oh you're going to remodel another one that we don't know for sure well and I and I think that's another option you can do the six now do the 86 if that's what the cost is to renovate that that gets us going now do we hire the next six in 24 or 25 maybe we don't maybe Council decides well we're going to move forward with one of these ideas or an idea that has at least get the first six on board and get full-time staff going and then from there we can decide better once we have the facilities kind of figured out better when do we hire the next six maybe we try to avoid future rennovations of other stations well then I feel bad for the initial six because we have no backup form do you know what I mean it's like I don't know I I this is never going to be a smooth trend [1:16:32] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: there is no clean way to do this short of building a brand new station for all of them that sits unused you know for a period of time until we hire up all those that's an option but if you wanted every Department that's made this transition it has been money it is not easy and every Department that I've talked to starts with the temporary solution because you work Out The Kinks you figure out what you need and then you do your longterm Solutions so and I don't mind you know phasing in six six and six I just would rather do it when we had a better plan [1:16:59] Councilmember Michelle Volk: but you guys will move forward because I'm the only one on that plate so what's your definition of a better plant what what you until we decide completely do we go with their recommendation do we ask them to explore a different recommendation I would say it's probably a a year delay in hiring the first six because we want to come up with where do three or four stations are they ultimately in the right spot do we really need to move them what are our land options all the things that are laid out here that we can't come to a decision on right today we're saying we're gonna put off which is fine to put it off because I want us to be able to thoroughly vet what we're going to do but I don't want us just jumping into the first six when we don't necessarily know what we're gonna do yeah I totally I understand where you come from my concern is you know we we delay and then we figure out what the solution is it's still a construction costs it's it's not a year delay it could be a two or threee delay because if you let's just say you combine two together and that's where we're going to put it but at the same time then we haven't done any temporary temporary cost no matter right that's that's what I'm saying delay here [1:18:25] Councilmember Joshua Lee: the other thing here too just now we have to kind of talk about the Staffing piece I don't know if there are other options besides uh 24-hour shifts for our initial six but we have immediate needs to fill hours that are not being filled um and Duty Crews that are not being filled because we have an immediate need and so to me the Staffing of six has to happen and whether that's sleeping quarters or some other Arrangement that doesn't require sleeping quarters that can be in conversation but there is we do need to fix something now to help this hybrid start happening because we we don't have enough bodies to fill all of the shifts as we speak as we stand right now [1:19:15] Councilmember Michelle Volk: yeah so I guess to your point is there a staffing model that doesn't require sleeping cours everything we've looked at is for 247 so it's for having minimum of three on so that's with the six it's two full-time on per shift and then one pay on call that would be overnight so kind of the the things that happen with that now is right now when we look back at a you have a Duty Crew person in theory with two fulltime correct yep and then we run our current Duty Crew truck or that's our plan is to run our current Duty Crew model that we run today as far as those Day hours if you will from 9:00 a.m. till 10 p.m. uh from the study our goal is to have two trucks staffed uh 1247 at the start and that's kind of what we've been our our angle or our goal has been for this whole time with that overnight truck now we we eliminate uh when we look back at a month of September we had 60 overnight calls we would eliminate all but three of those calls that we would page a station that that one truck would cover that now taking some of the stress off of our current Personnel of them getting up two three times in a night and still working their full-time job we have that one truck covering that so yeah let's say there's a big fire yep and that's likely gonna have fulltime first and then we're gonna have the pay call right we're going to have that initial truck out the door much faster than we are at the Page station but those 60 overnight calls probably most are medical right correct and when you said all the three meant you didn't have to um page somebody out that meant you didn't have duplicate calls that going on at the same time right the three calls were either it was a two- station call or that duty crew was already occupied so that's so 57 of the calls in September overnight were handled by one truck could have been handled by one truck and that was the only call that was going on at that time that would be handled by the 24-h hour and under this Staffing model how many Living Spaces or dormatory just two no we were going with three we were going to add a fourth one just so that was there and we had it for use you know the other piece that uh and I'll say from my time on the department that we've staffed overnight shifts for uh all the writing that happened so we did that over that weekend but we've also Staffing staffed for storm events so we've kept Crews that were able to come in and they're sleeping on couches or cops that we bought so this helps get us to that point in a short-term fix and we're only doing that one station for you know potentially four four spots to sleep and I I understand the cost but everything that we're putting in two of the spaces that we're taking from station 4 our current offices so alls we're putting in is the soft goods the beds and that such and then two of the other spaces are are we're taking over training room so we're putting in walls uh to make those into a bedroom so in just looking I mean worst case scar we're going to hire the 666 the worst case scenario is we end up doing a short-term rental on all the stations to create some dorm spaces for our hybrid fire department that we have now and we don't do any of the new ones that's like 318,000 uh to do the first two it's $146,000 in my mind I'm just trying to find a scenario where I don't feel pressure because I think I I hear that like what Michelle saying to that where we just don't feel like there's a ton of pressure that okay we've done these two oh shoot this just really isn't a good time to build a new combined fire station can we can we have that hybrid fire department for a few years I mean you were talking up to 27 with this 388,000 investment it won't be ideal you still have the health and the issues going but you could still do that and still have a fire department it just wouldn't be in state the facilities that we would like them to be in correct and I think we understand that there's going to be a transition time so that's kind of why we were focusing on the minimal short terms of what can we do to just you know all we focus on truly is the sleeping quarters as far as so that they're there um you know the fitness room we already have in existence that's what's today at station 4 so we didn't focus on that it was all just where can we put them so that they have a place to to sleep but we know we're taking away our training rooms or potentially that they're going to have to live through that time frame and we know it's two to three years potentially four years that we're in this window do the uh you know the the the carcinogens the gear and that is not ideal I saw that and I I'm going I I don't like this but it's the way it is now you know and we want to move forward from away from that but if we do nothing we're going to be in the same situation if we build dormatory spaces and these fire stations we're in the same situation but we're working towards a a model where we have a hybrid uh and we can start thinking about later on but I I just for me I have no issue in moving forward with the uh the remodeling because of that I I just we aren't if we don't do that and we don't hire people that we're not going to be any different than we are now in terms of facilities not ideal I really want to emphasize that you know we want the best for our firefighters and we want them in safe environment that they can experience their mental health and be safe of of all the things are dragging in from fires um but we can't do that overnight [1:25:21] Mayor Luke Hellier: well because the one thing we haven't talked about is how we were supposed to pay for all this you know and which was not going to happen yet tonight you know but this is going to take a lot of planning to figure out how are we supposed to pay for this yeah I mean on top of water treatment yeah public works if you you take just those three projects it's aund million right yeah between Public Works dreamer and everything that's kind of the elephant in the room we we wanted all but it's like how in the heck do you do this so I think there consensus on the renovation keep moving forward on that rest of this is going to more conversation and it'll be in bsize pieces obviously right I mean we're only going to renovate station one short term right away um station first station station yeah one more one more question for The Architects is there any possibility like if you're talking about taking a station and not moving it not but just doing the add-ons is there ways to do that I know it costs more the longer it takes it the cheapest time to build is right now but is there a way to do if we prioritized what we wanted to see for our firefighters is there a way to do that incrementally in a in a building in the same building yeah let's say you're going to take uh fire station one and do that add-on does that all have I mean I suppose it does all have to be done at once or implications of yeah it's yeah to do an incremental is probably not feasable and and accomplished because you you're generally taking away something in the part to do the next part of and so yeah would be nice to be able to break that into smaller pieces but I don't see that [1:27:14] Councilmember Michelle Volk: will there be any adaptations to this report as a result of this conversation um and just different comments that were made whether that be about frontier's little building there or um [1:27:26] City Administrator Justin Miller: well we'll probably do is um we'll reconvene after this and we'll bring this back to you um want give you a time frame yet but probably after after the first of the year with maybe a little bit more of a recommendation and um maybe some timing and a financing plan for options on how we might do that but I'm sure we'll work with them and take back some of the conversation that we had see what might be able to do I mean these are blocks on a page right now [1:28:10] Councilmember Michelle Volk: so will you remind me what when we did The Hot Spot thanks so I can look that back up again what month we did that in [1:28:18] Fire Chief Mike Meyer: would have been you would received this City Gate report in April of 20 we can be it out and send it to you so I res send it to you okay thank you [1:28:30] Councilmember John Bermel: to see yeah well I just not having been part of this discussion as it's evolved too I have to say I was really struck when we toured those stations about I you know I knew we were going to see needs for some improvement I didn't anticipate how woefully out ofd everything was in terms of the health and safety things and that's really what stood out to me so Michelle your point I mean I I being new to this process too I kind of wondered the overall plan too because it seems like we're adding staff and then we're just kind of doing peace meal I understand you guys have been doing it longer uh than I have but I do see a critical need there um with that and then also contrasted with Burns spell which has kind of the Cadillac model there and realizing we're going to be competing with them for firefighters so the wellness piece is more than just an OSHA issue it's it's a getting the best and brightest issue as well too so I hope we take that into consideration I don't have any answers for the bigger questions yet I would I'd be also curious find out savings on clothing different ones what that cost is and then also um working with our commercial real estate on which are marketability which the marketability of the of the partials fortunately we can't build a fire station next to liquor stre because it's too small and then and knowing the other land that we own be help to I know we have pars but I just don't I don't know what all questions oh was a thorough study so thank you appreciate it I more conversation you right uh we're only 40 minutes behind schedule okay uh Paul can we turn over to talk about pigh [Laughter] pH one piece right in that big wetland right [1:31:02] Public Works Director Paul Oehme: so well thank you mayor City Council Members so that we're talk tonight about um some national U uh litigation that's going on right now against P manufacturers um so I just wanted to bring this to your attention so tonight i' like to just briefly talk about uh what is why it's concerning you know drinking water and discussed current uh class action litigations going on right now timing of that and the review City's options for what we want to do with that litigation and talk about some next steps as well so um real quick what is p so uh it's a family of chemicals um over 5,000 chemicals um it's been manufactured um basically starting 1938 was designed it was a in Ed by Dupont um and for the next 50 plus years it's been utilized in all sorts of manufacturing and products um both commercial and domestic um most common chemical groups is a pre Flo Octan acid the p p pfas and the P the pre Flor octane Sanic acids PFO s those are the two that are the most concerning that are um ending up in our drinking water so what's the issue with with the these chemicals so they're actually they're can be called Forever chemicals because they do not break down in naturally in the environment basically have to incinerate this stuff um at really high U temperatures to to break down the chemical uh it's a long chemical chain that um can actually get bio accumulated in humans and other living organisms so there's some help risks associated with with these chemicals if it accumulates in in the bodies uh so again posos um what's what's unique about the the the chemical is that it's really resistant to water and uh in in oils too so it retells oils water very well so over the years uh Scotch Guard was designed with this U manufactur with this uh carpets think of Furniture um waterproofing clothing uh especially fire fighting Foams we're finding that that's one of the biggest issues with uh that are getting in water non-stick cookware medal equip and even th CL over the years and been used uh p in it as well um but the pfos and the pfoa chemicals are no longer manufactured in the United States um and a lot of the other chemicals are are being discontinued as well but unfortunately still these chemicals are in the in the product chains and still being utilized in circulation and they are still being manufactured overseas as well so we're still seeing some of these products in in use and getting into the environment so um like I said P ises not break down um and it's been used you know 50 60 years already um and we're finding it everywhere now um the more we test the more we find PE so we're finding it in in in surface water bodies we're finding in groundw we're finding in soils and you in the air the Department of Health actually tested rain droplets and they're finding p and rain right now so it's everywhere um so again uh the EPA is concerned about the health effects of of these chemicals so they have proposed National regulations for the p pooa and poos chemicals specifically so they're recommending um a maximum contaminant level of these chemicals or these chemicals that found in in drinking water to be no more than four parts per trillion um which is really unheard of in the industry uh we don't typically test down to that level of contaminants for any other chemicals in in our in our drinking water and under the Safe Water drinking ACT public water systems are required to meet these uh mcls now uh for for the for the new contaminants and we're expecting EPA to hand out the uh mcls either later this year or early next year and we're have to abide by those those rules and it goes through the PCA and all the states so the um the litigation um we wanted to talk about tonight is specifically just for manufacturers of DuPont and three and those are the two biggest manufacturer the PFA and P's and um over the over the last I'd say four or five years um as more testing has been done nationally um we're finding again more of those P PES in our water system and there's been a lot of litigation um nationally uh where they're finding large amounts of this in in in water B so there's been a lot of there's hundreds of litigation um core cases that have been started over the years um and now the uh all these lawsuits have been rolled into this multi-district litigation um and going after Dupont and 3M specifically and Dupont and 3M have basically settled on um on on these litigation on these settlements right now so dupon uh is right now settled for a little over 1.1 billion and then 3M is uh upwards of almost the well it's going to be right around 12 billion dollars I think right now so so you take that minus all the attorneys fees and other court case costs and that will be the settlement eventually so we don't know exactly how much money be actually handed out to um agencies or water uh water um utilities but it's going to be a big amount um and again this does not apply to other PE spots manufacturers specifically for 3M dupond [1:37:18] Councilmember John Bermel: oh is this sorry is this a national Fe so it's not just Minot [1:37:28] Public Works Director Paul Oehme: it's just not Minnesota yeah correct it's it's spread all through all 50 states so it's a b so basically one real last point on that page so virtually um any water body uh water body systems that have have detected pasas in the water um would be eligible for for that settlement dollars so in Leo has tested positive for a really small trace of pie us um so we're we be eligible for um becoming uh part of that that class action lawsuit so what we'd like to discuss tonight would is and as a city want to opt out of the uh the settlement and litigation or do we object to what the the Court's uh filings and the settlement is or remain member of the class so um basically like I said all eligible Water Systems will um will be eligible for automatically included in the W and the settlement unless they opt out so you actually have to fill out some paperwork if you want to be opt out uh so the settlements are are binding unless the water system again opts out the water systems do that that do not opt out will wave their rights to pursue future litigations for 3M and Dupont in the future uh for p contamination so there is some risk if for example if we opt in or uman in the in the L suit and we have a balloon of of P that hits our water our groundwater that we don't have any basically legal recourse that go back after P5 uh dupond or 3M so so that's that's the only risk that we receive by opting out really so in and again opting out um you have to fill out some paperwork um before December 4th for the dupond qu Cas and re in for December 11th so next slide so if the city what elects to remain as part of the settlement um uh and become we'd recommend that we retain legal counsel uh to walk us through that process to help us through the process um benefits again for for that Council would be to access advice and guidance through the process help to estimate the recovery amounts that we the settlement amounts that we potentially would receive help to keep track of the Court deadlines and there are going to be a lot of Court deadlines coming up next year in 2024 for this they have to meet and there's some testing associated with as well and then assisting in fing the actual forms as well too so and we think you know all the legal fees um that we would are incur based upon the this um settlement um that could be recouped through the the Mons receive through 3 in and uh tup pond so that's why you said the financial impact was Zero yes that's why we think that it's it's not going to be much I mean we we like I said we have just very little hits less than a part per trillion have two of our wells for the PES that are in this litigation um so we're not I mean it's going to makebe $20,000 we're talking about but the again the risk is if we if we uh go with the go with the uh the settlement we don't have any recourse down the road to go after 3M if we have any issues with our with additional P hits uh for you know for improving our system or for U just for settlement those would also be all at our cost exactly subid there's five 10 year litigation expenses been G so the good news is we don't have very much P water again this is just a snapshot in time we took tests back in 2001 with you know very little u p uh identified in our water system but again that's 200 202 I'm 2012 so [1:41:41] Mayor Luke Hellier: my my question is um I mean there was no manufacturing anywhere near here so it's more of a consumable product so I'm thinking like long term the chance of having the like situation a lot of p and wanting to go after seems pretty minimal just sticking in this is probably just from a longterm risk right I mean that's what we recomend that and that's what we're recommending too the only risk that I see that's out there is you know we haven't tested near the airport um that counil airport down there I we don't even know if they ever used any uh P foam um and so that's I can that I can see that's the only risk that risk that we really have out there but we don't know about but any data we don't have any data sell the I count I just don't see us like a lake Elma whatever on the east side yeah East things would VAR Cottage Grove that whole area [1:42:36] Mayor Luke Hellier: I'm fine with recommendation okay so if you're fine with a recommendation well we'll talk to we've been talking to several legal firms is it so specific we can't use Campbell [1:43:03] City Administrator Justin Miller: yeah they're even recommending that we use a different one we have one that I think Apple Valley need top but it's not the guy that came to our meeting [1:43:10] Mayor Luke Hellier: no it's not that Al Val attorney no okay then that's fine okay so we we'll bring us back a contract in the a few your thank right thank you all right Julie CN as I was supposed to start the last item at 8:15 I'm not going to be able to catch up all of that's okay [1:43:40] Finance Director Julie Stahl: so um high level there's a lot of detail in the the packet on what you got so touch very briefly on this uh so we've got the liquor fund up first right um liquor funds are doing really well and they coming in above what they budgeted for 2023 and we're uh the way we structur structured sales um is based on these very healthy this very healthy year Kia Cook really came in first as far as those goes so um the Personnel expenses reflecting the additional adding more full-time staff with Benefits versus um trying to keep those parment positions filled so um we are still looking at transferring out 1.58 million in 2024 that's what's in the budget and those items were included in the packet in that chart there um any questions on we're we're hitting the forecast or the you know the fund balance reserves and all that that we've set out for ourselves we're achieving those cash targets we're achieving the debt service coverage ratio um so there's there any questions in the fund just this is my one thing that I asked always is that the target dates for paying off the police bonds if you included the memo in the future it's my little pet peeve because I think every day of all these different projects we can spend $400,000 [1:45:10] Councilmember Michelle Volk: it's in the packet I think it's oh was in the packet miss it it's not necessarily right in this one but it's in the packet today um it was in the the 10 year year oh it was in the 10 year broke yeah that's right it is oh I know I because I asked JN so many times that I finally remember [1:45:30] Councilmember Dan Wolter: were you asking Galaxy bonds are 205 yeah those are sooner those are pretty soon yeah was your question about moving on to your next item no oh okay because I was gonna say we have the finance committee uh present too because there were notes from the October 11th meeting about the uh proposed budget and so I just wanted to at least have some time to reflect on those notes after I didn't mean to interrupt [1:46:16] Finance Director Julie Stahl: no no not at all I I want to move on before we go and that's fine and that's what we're you know so look when we're looking at the um cash on hand focuses on the balance sheet um whereas the debt when you're looking at the debt service coverage that factor is looking at the profit and loss statement so and so we're looking at the performance of the liquor operations you know in two different ways that's why um making sure that we're covering it in with both viewpoints um so those are have been factored into it um so as far as as we've that's been built into the reports that we um track into those notes from they G to make more money because I got to pay for fire stations yes that's very true well that did looking further down the line in terms of the pro foron know we've got balances or income after Bond principal payments in the amounts of nearly a million dollars and it seems like a lot um is are we not anticipating higher transfers as a part of we can um that's just not how this this has been structured out so what years are you looking at uh 2031 well actually 2032 really jumps three years and that's where I mean we'll definitely have that flexibility and we can start transferring out more too I mean there's no reason to carry that much unless we have some major Capital outlays plan for the do it's just that's T and I haven't talked to Justin much about this yet but we we do need to take a look at the market area for the uh Heritage vicker store or way over um we way over uh our sales there per square footage so we're doing we could be doing more business there if we could expand Heritage that our restore location but we're g to put in next year for a but Market study to see what we need to do for the Heritage L store so that's kind of just the heads up that I don't know what that means it me mean we're just GNA stay where we is [1:48:38] Mayor Luke Hellier: one is the cup thing off the table certain just as for um for grins um oh I want grins yeah so I mean you see we're 1.5 million is what we're transferring out of Le fund um this real high level math $57 million of debt which is remodeling station One Remodeling station three combined two and four and today's dollars that's 579 roughly at 20 years at 4% is annually about two million a year so 1.5 million from Lor almost covers that total package now that you're also having to then Levy for the things that you know there's equipments I mean it's all funable right just as you're thinking scale we just need a meta data center Sol and these and these numbers are mostly liquor sales um right I mean we're not there's some rental in there not CB whatever the uh oh that's well those beverages are in there those the current sales of that but what are we projecting sales of that in the future conservative go higher yeah no pun intended but yeah they'll go higher um T hasn't done projections none in but our sales are constantly growing every month on that you know it's kind of the shiny penny effect there too we think sotion all yeah oh competition yeah yeah was it was interesting looking at some of the numbers it was like the porium room rentals went way up the liquor sales went up so I mean I'm assuming that's what drove the increase of liquor sales is a lot of the events there it helps helped I mean t does a great job of isolating know sales from events there's always a correlation yeah interesting and the important has definitely increased sales overall at K 15 to around 15% every time there event there from year of year need weekly events four events and sorry then um [1:51:24] City Administrator Justin Miller: has there been any more conversation about the property uh we have gotten some inquiries on it most of them have been Auto uses so auto parts store oil change places um we've said no if you tell us differently we'll go back to them but we don't think that's we've been holding out for something that's a little more complimentary there is another use that's still on the wings still being discussed that would be ideal um it would be a multi-tenant uh retail building with some fast casual dining which would be perfect next to us um so that's still on the works so we're kind of waiting for that to either go away to or to come preparation wa pass another lak stre um that's fine I'm people are g off the moon yeah the auto they just it's it just doesn't do anything for us next door um you know it's it's a level of retail multi details over okay it's a good piece of proper hold the longer we hold it the higher the value is with everything else developing up there I don't think we're doing anything wrong by holding up to it [1:52:35] Councilmember Joshua Lee: other questions about mic budget um each year we get audited this percentage of sales uh or profit comes up up is there any way that this number can be inserted into the audits I mean I don't understand the difference between what they're counting and what we're counting and why our percentage says 27 point something percent um [1:53:06] Finance Director Julie Stahl: I have found that oftentimes the Auditors put Freight in different places even though you tell them know Freight is part of the cost of goods sold right it ends up down in the operating part versus in cost sold depends on the auditor audit and you really have to watch it because if you don't point it out it because the typically a city H way the code public the groupings of things happen Freight is up in there with a a city's perspective it's it's a cost I good but yeah because the other thing in terms of comparables that puts us below other cities profits but with these numbers it would put us either in line or above um yeah and I'm I'm not sure there's also no standard about how cities report that gross profit right a lot of cities use their City their Public Works to plow their parking lots sure and so they don't have that cost so there's no set I mean that's why I mean we're always 25% or higher you know maybe a little bit lower but I just they're never Apples to Apples yeah we we operate liqu operations to be an independent fully retail establishment with all costs no matter if it's poet works that does it or if contractors that do it all of that costs are taken out of the bottom line to show the true overall operational cost of our liquer stores and so Justin said other cities don't necessarily do that works will do it or Park will do some stuff or and then that's not showing in their bottom line and another thing that you um have to be careful watching sometimes rental so you rent out space to tenants heres whatever and they'll get that confused and have that in the revenues so some of those other cities the revenue the sales can be overstated like well no that's not that's a non-operating revenue um right gotta there yeah alen said a lot of times you're looking at these liquor comparable reports at the state level and there's so many variables well they got make them look profitable to their public you have to put some of those numbers in there to do that or take some of them out to do that so I mean you know by not including the snow costs which is substantial in their report because it's a city owned thing um makes them Prof more profitable so thanks the questions in the Lin [1:55:40] Finance Director Julie Stahl: we'll move to the Utility Fund budgets and utility rate projections so um we are looking at a 3% increase at the water rates in the sewer rates and then having a 0% increase for street lights and environmental resources um we are meeting the on aide in cash uh fund requirement for the water sewer fund um of 500,000 and street lights and environmental resources is at 100,000 uh that's how these are structured right now we are also we did also structure the rate increase es so that we when it is time to replace the water treatment plant or add on expand expand in 2027 we're not going to have to issue bonds we're going to have the cash on hand most of it or if not all of it on hand between the water uh sewer Utility Fund and the water trunk [1:56:56] Mayor Luke Hellier: is that why there's such a spread between the blue on the chart years yeah because we know even though it's beyond the desired we know we want to use that fund expansion where do those Balance where are those balances they get held U because I mean1 million of cash balance does that benefit us in any way are we getting interest off of that yeah it's in the mattress yeah no it's in in in the investment funds we don't yeah and we're six to 8% or something it ranges yes depending on the Holdings that we've got you know there's we try and have it in obviously it's in safe custodial and safe things that we ar risking losing on it but as you know the market has been pretty bad for the last um couple years and so now we're just starting to see those Returns on the investment portfolios so so we don't ever lose value on our so this is always frustration and no offense to accounts but a lot of times you'll see like in your a loss in fair market value at the end that was if we were to cash those in today but all of our stuff if we hold on to it for the term will be profitable it's it's almost always CDs or bonds or things like that because we would never cash them we're not allow exactly and we're not allowed we're restricted by state law what we canest but because of us being municipalities we have to mark to mark it and so that's and that's and it's nice actually having in your financials you can see here's the true interest you've earned or dividends and here's that market value adjustment so there's two separate lines um on different funds it's nice to see that because you know one of them is a book entry we don't we don't play the market we buy and hold till it's maturity so so we don't realize those gains Until the End we're we're realizing them as the interest payments each every you know some of them are every six months you know or Sumer monthly depending on the structure the the security okay so um so with this um we we do have the um on the water use sewer Utility Fund we are adding the one utility maintenance position in 2024 so that's built in here um it was tricky with this is structuring the projected sales because of um moving to the for U the new TI structure M and we don't have a full year of that history granted it was another drought summer so a lot of the extra sales just because of the dry year so um we're feeling confident that that the numbers are um not too robust and then we're covering ourselves with the 3% so um let's see anything um I might add um just if you're remember this matches with the study that we had right I me we had a couple years some pretty significant increases with a plan that starting in 24 was going to start to go back down to the 3% level so it just matches with what right well you mentioned somewhere done line potentially a decrease which it seems rare um so that's exciting yes and that's what we're looking at so 2027 after we um do the expansion on the Water Treatment Plant we could be able hold State rate steady at that point or possibly decrease them yeah so that's going to be [Music] nice especially because of what the debt that's falling off yeah and that's a big piece of it sorry to just deviate Paul [2:00:32] Mayor Luke Hellier: they've been finding success in this biologics testing that you've been doing [2:00:40] Public Works Director Paul Oehme: yep we're finally seeing some real good progress in our or meanies that was the biggest Pro we' been seen over the last couple months here so we yeah we we we've tested it and it's it's going to be working for the next what two two three more weeks and complete the study okay bring it back to if you want I said does the data look favorable you said we we our problem is actually our water is really clear so the bugs don't have anything to really eat if we're trying to add um more oxygen and different things in terms of thetion process so we're just trying to dial it in right now so it's a good problem I have but I I think it's going to work [2:01:21] Councilmember Dan Wolter: is kind of a related question but there's increased fees from the Metropolitan Council on waste water I mean are there ways to manage our outflow [2:01:34] Public Works Director Paul Oehme: yep so uh I mean we we D best so the biggest issue that that to improve the or reduce the amount of uh waste water that ends up at M counil is to try to eliminate as much of the surface water and the ground water that gets in our sewer pipes that's why're we have U big lining projects every year the inii program that we have and so we go around um and and do a bunch of inspections to every year make sure that reduce as much of the surface water that gets in there as much as we can and and ground water as well so that's that's it's variable it is variable and drier drier Seasons right now too I mean we're not seeing as much water getting in in the in the uh in our system as well too and I think that's little reflected in me council's numbers that they they've given us as well too so but WEA years I the numbers are going to come back up a little bit more but I think it's behooves us to do our due diligence to try to keep lining our our pipes as much as we can where we're refining I I and try to eliminate as bu of that groundwater service water getting in our systems and I didn't know if there was a campaign to put toilet attachments to decrease the waste water I mean you know so it kind of ties into our our water smart system because for like toilets you know that that water you know obviously goes into the the SE system as well we can catch it with our water smart system you know if people are monitoring it with the amount of water that they're using in the dayto Braes that's it's really a good tool to use for water um try to reduce the amount of water consumptions we get and ruce as much of sewer that goes in sewer system as well sure thanks and and I'm thinking too with the new tiered structure it's more of a benefit to those people who are conservative so there's more incentive to be in that conservative group [2:03:44] Finance Director Julie Stahl: so uh the uh street light fund we are looking at no increase there but and and we're able to cover we're achieving the cash targets and achieving debt service coverage um for all the years as well so that one is holding steady the environmental resource fund um we're also like I said just keeping rates flat for 2024 um but we would look at 2% annual increases starting in 2025 going out um we are meeting the cash targets and there is no debt in that fund so that doesn't need live um any questions on either of those two so with that I this counil is good with us proposing those rate structures yeah I I mean I'm fine with the rate changes for for the year I guess my only note um that ideal those the smaller increases are for the tier one tier two long term and so if they ever kind of become out of whack with just doing 3% across the board um I may want to consider you know having a smaller percentage increase for tier one tier two versus tier three four um but I think they look fine I mean we're talking about pennies of the increase in most cases so [2:05:25] Finance Director Julie Stahl: next we've got the proposed fee schedule for 2024 um did note any new fees that we haven't been charging um people for and then also the just proposed changes a lot of these have to do with if it has staff time related to it it's just incrementally changing to um match up for the cost of living adjustments that are anticipated so um we are adding in an online permit application fee it's a $3 per permit fee but that will be starting to be charged when we implement the software in October of next year with bsna so um but want to make sure we get that on the schedule anticipating that we'll go as it is planned in October so um we've added a separate fee that's recovering what we PID to tooda County when we issues uh when we put the special assessment roles to them normally the Ci's been absorbing that um found that other cities um our neighbors were not absorbing it and passing it on so that's what that is um we had a separate Park shelter fees for Antlers park because of the shelter a being substantially bigger than BNC so they added another pricing structure for that [2:06:48] Councilmember Dan Wolter: do we we have any sense about how many non-residence and like wondering if we ever looked at that because I'm I mean only $50 more [2:06:56] Mayor Luke Hellier: John I don't know about the same thing actually I was gonna suggest rather i' rather increase the non-resident decrease the res there's if there's an apex but I was also wanting to see some f your data on you know is there an imbalance of non-resident users after the first year [2:07:22] Finance Director Julie Stahl: yeah do you want us to look that for this no I know we got to see it open I think first and see we did add an annexation application fee because we're getting more of those requests and it hasn't been covering our staff time before so um it's substantial [2:07:38] Mayor Luke Hellier: who's paying that usually the land owner or the developer but that's our cost I mean probably not even all of our cost we have pretty extensive attorney time and staff time like those so the 2000's getting returned no oh that no that's put an escrow that we draw on [2:08:08] Councilmember Michelle Volk: oh okay other things of not you mentioned the mcbs charge that's for just second are we discouraging that from happening if there's another way to get that money somehow through the development if they're worried about $2,000 then I don't know if they're really serious about annexing that's pretty I mean we we charge for conditional use permits we charge for comp plan amendments we don't subsidize any of those I shouldn't say that we we offset our cost of doll I mean we offset our cost of dollar part velopment all of our development plans right I just didn't know the reason they're giving it over for annexation is for development so I didn't know you know we also needed to be serious okay just action I was substantial so what was that I want to take over the world but yeah me too I don't think that's going to deter I mean okay most of the time these are large land owners that are bringing in 100 acres plus they probably have already spent that much on preliminary fees or preliminary drawings it's pretty small expense in the whole schema okay [2:09:40] Councilmember Joshua Lee: what what's with the major swings and Equipment use it's like this big one street street sweers an extra $100 an hour we get a better piece of equipment I mean and then this Hydro VOR is a half went down so I'm just wondering these seem is that normal they seem out of whack like the I thought it was because they were using the other equipment anyway to go with it or something like that like skid steer is double and this is only if we have to fill that use out to somebody so so it's like if we have to go onto a private property or something like that okay something like that and a lot of these are FEMA set well we adopted FEMA schedule and and I there was you note about that adjusting those fees per the FEMA schedule yeah I see just crazy they such wild swings well I appreciate that there are that I means who costed it out and know that you know we're charging the right amount and these are very yeah sure I will note um Julie didn't talk about it but every year it seems like you know step is questioned about the increase on the bark debt fee and we always say it ties to the to the formula that we have and if it ever were to go down or be flat we'd do that and just when to highlight it's going up 1% next year so I we should gas it up more inflation's up no I mean if if people's property tax are going up or valuation home valuation is up you know but it's the valueable unplanted land isn't that's what it's Cas so and like I mentioned about the water sewer rates are in here we did so the Met Council Fe you know that's increasing 6.23% so that is a large jump in our that cost in that fund to I wonder if this was on the last report [2:11:59] Councilmember Michelle Volk: the water meter thing the sentence was that we've missed water meeting water meter readings I don't know what it was in this report or the last one I want to know what that meant but you know because we've gone um so the technology is I don't know let's just call it Wireless but uh somehow or another we've missed some readings [2:12:35] Public Works Director Paul Oehme: there's some some meters that don't get picked up by the towers and so we're still having to go around manually either with a truck and get closer to now to actually read [2:12:47] Councilmember Michelle Volk: Oh I thought it was in the same sentence as the I'm trying to see if it was here or there all right well I just didn't um understand what it meant that we missed so miss means that somebody didn't get built for their water means the tower C we didn't read it with the remote system and we still have some dead spots they're still getting built okay okay thank you unless they reverse their beer yes which we will catch eventually any other questions on the Fe schedule there's a lot of notes in there I know so yeah which what I appreciate all the time and just a reminder we're only highlighting the changes yeah than you some move on to the uh third quarter financial report and that's a second quarter in the heading sorry about that um third oh okay never mind [2:13:46] Finance Director Julie Stahl: so um just highlights again uh licens and permits even though they seem they are down from our prior years we are at 98% of budget for just in that Revenue category wanted to point that out um so in I know there's typically not a lot of activity in October November December but um we've already pretty much met that goal um intergovernmental we at 99% of budget and um the the police and fire state aid money came in more but we always do budget amendments for those the fire is is pass through fire relief um charges for services were at 71% of the budget again I'm in looking at these you know you know the 75% is our Benchmark for September 30th so not too far off there um development contract revenue and the um construction projects that is down that was you know part of even the 2024 budget um we're down 577 th000 in their development contract construction um Revenue compared to last year for the same period so we're seeing that drop there just not as much development happening um court fines are at 75% of budget so basically and you know as you know taxes twice a year you get that penis so to be at 54% is we're good on that um looking at the expenditures Personnel is actually um for third quarter is at 48% um so that's good imagine a lot of that has to do with vacancies um not being filled for the most part um motor fuels it's a tough one uh we're already at 9 6% of the annual budget um Street chemicals uh also that one is at 95% of budget so um depending on how the stores Salt storage we've got enough to and how the weather cooperates for the next couple months see um electric and gas that's at 70% of budget so that's you know kind of a nice offset less than where we're going to be but of course we're coming into the higher months um um other things of note we do have in finance department um with the staff transitioning but we are we also added the temporary staffing to um cover Laura Miller's position while we doing all Erp planning and implementation um see like I said there's lots lots of notes on this one too we did we've got forestry now being being reported here in the general fund or it was an environmental resources fund before so um got that tracking now general fund so I think we're we're in a good position obviously expenditures are at 75% of budget so or just below it sorry yeah 75% I don't know I [2:17:34] Councilmember Dan Wolter: we're going to keep up with what's budgeted for single family for res we budgeted we're Notting we're not 350 we're not getting no we're not [2:17:45] Finance Director Julie Stahl: that's why I wanted to focus on the dollars the dollars that we've taken in building permits we're already you know and it's because of the commercial the um the name of it the co-op by um stor they apply for the their building permit nice and I think that's 91 units how do we count them because they're it counts as it counts as one permit but it's in the apartment in the apartment it's not in this one even though they're individually owned yeah and aoria um we're not sure if it's going to come in we're not sure it's come in we won't know till but it's good news that they've applied for which means getting closer to so on the general fund any other questions with the the highlights that were in the memo um communication fund um revenues are continued to be lower than historical then they're trending down 24,000 from the prior year expenditures are up 42,000 and you this is as you're familiar with it's it's the trend in the cable so um water everything else um looking at the other obviously Li fund's doing well water and sewer um on track um it's a lot of Grant Revenue obviously an environmental resources fund you know they're budget at 1.3 million a lot of those projects um that state funding you know it's more of a cash flow thing for us as far as sometimes we're making the payments out to the contractors before we get the funding depending on how that's set up but most of it you know we request the reimbursement funding um after that final contract payment's been made anything else on those again looking at my level no I I just appreciate all the summary statements kind of helps St and it's nice seeing where the the net position is of each too yes I agree and even though you know for some of them even though the the net profit or loss is a negative then in that case the but the fund balance is very healthy like in the environmental resource fund for instance [2:20:47] Mayor Luke Hellier: how does this what does this mean to you for end of a year [2:20:53] Finance Director Julie Stahl: where that we're on track um that there's no big surprises um we've got and as usual there's a lot of budget amendments um to to be done but that's it's not atypical so you feel comfortable that we'll meet our end of year goals yeah I do yeah like we get you know even if we get slammed with a whole horrible icy season you know it's it's not that's that cost is not astronomical [2:21:28] Mayor Luke Hellier: how about for next year's budget what what are the implications I mean if we're on Target but I mean you're seeing Trends particularly in permits so this and that will I mean just with the atoria thing the atoria development alone that would be a nice cushion if if it comes in in 2023 it'll it'll help our fund balance at the end of the year comes in 2024 it'll help because those we budgeted very conservatively in development Revenue so um there's things that we we can't control we're gonna yeah I mean I think I think next year will be more like this year single ping return back to the 2020 21 those stre ex well isn't it just about available land too I mean you have enough the existing plats that we could have another big year um where where we are seeing slowdowns is and new plats um those have really come to a halt and so that doesn't bode well for a year or two down the road three years down the road unless they catch up sure know questions okay thank thank you [2:23:07] Mayor Luke Hellier: um Moving On future discussion anythingit City administer updates [2:23:17] City Administrator Justin Miller: um for the Arenas just a small little update we're still working on um working with the contractors on um the a solution or for the rink concrete so um I believe they're having did Bron already come back out or G have Brun come back out and if you noticed in your documentation from the month before it would have said that Bron didn't take into account the um they didn't they didn't look at the um it's the right term the documents that would have said how we wanted it built you know for the rank and so they gave an opinion based on concrete does that make sense and so it's not based on what our needs were for that concrete to be um how it was supposed to be mixed and how settle in ETC so um unfortunately you know we have to work with our attorney and it was going to be delayed it was going to be delayed but I don't have a solution for you yet because they're still trying to work at getting all the proper um documentation put together for our our attorney to be able to go back to the contractor and um and see if we can come up with a solution that works for all of us [2:24:45] Councilmember Dan Wolter: just as a side not for arena stuff Justin I had a positive conversation with Glenn Hy about extending his investment in the arena so we'll know more details but we um it got brought up at our meeting a little bit but yeah um since it wasn't really anything that's yeah there's nothing concrete concrete wasn't gonna not we concrete but other than that the Arenas are running great everything's on track budget's doing well da so I mean that's kind of like the third quarter Financial part we're Cruis and R along so everything's going well uh yeah had Dakota 911 board meeting end of September uh pretty routine it was the agenda was short proving a couple of their agreements with their their Ling workers and supervisors uh there were a few things in the executive director's report um there were if you remember there were three outages of their admin line so the 911 Service never went down but the admin line Frontier and a consultant that here is working with are working on that um it could impact the full line cost ultimately but not a lot uh they got legislative a one time legislative funding a onetime appropriation 304,000 um that's going to go towards NextGen 911 Readiness and some cyber security cost savings and then we had a conversation about the uh fee structure as relates to townships and rural areas and whether the you know what the Count's paying and what they're going to do in terms of trying to spread their cost those are the uh big things that we uh we have you don't mean that we pick up the township costs no that the townships would actually um because every right now the county picks up those costs they do so we pay you know County tax so we're actually in some fashion pain or some that right response so the idea is to have those rural areas that are townships and are governed um cover their CS [2:27:18] Councilmember Joshua Lee: who's who's on I35 I'm just curious what they're talking about was all mvta Suburban Transit this moment oh nothing exciting ex except Dan keaty trying to tell me you guys got to join MBTA so yeah very I was on the Met Council we're good I'm happy where uh BBB is wound down they're going to Reg a check for $59,000 our cut of for me so assum just going to Communications fund for it's already spent already came in oh I did yeah it's going I think we put it but if you ever want to go the archives they're in farington yeah for now for now in case anyone was looking for dbb Arch Arch good know hope our fiber survives have so much fiber in this town and then I just got an email from Frontier they want to read send their fiber like really they do you get a notice from that that they in your area yeah okay oh I got a flyer that's one of the big biggest questions I'm getting is about fiber who's who's got fiber where are the lines there's it's we will have an excess of fiber on L fi by the next five years for as many years as we heard that there's no options you know that Charter is the only option why can't the city have any other options now they're tearing up everybody's yard three times yeah FR Frontier got a new product called I'll send through the the sky I hav really heard much about Metronet though so that's why I didn't know if that was they got better oh they don't email you I definitely heard all right well with that I'll take a motion toour move all in favor say I hi post