I'll turn it over to you welcome to you all thank you I appreciate it thanks for uh allowing me the time I know we have a busy busy workshop and upcoming council meeting so I'll try to uh get through both of the items let me try and share my screen here you know I apologize for Staffing it always seems like we're dealing with your department and it's uh too bad that we have to deal with this a lot yeah and it's it's it's really not just a North St Paul thing and I'll uh I'll get into it briefly but uh it's it's kind of agency-wide throughout the country it's just a lot of agencies and very similar tough times um already seen the screen so just uh just to open it up Police Executive Research Forum uh they are they recognize that departments both small and large are experiencing these uh the exact same difficulties that we are for hiring resignations and and retirements uh they're on the rise and since 2017 Minnesota as a state we've lost 14 law enforcement law enforcement agencies they've they've closed their doors just due to the resignations retirements and difficulties hiring um that I just mentioned uh the Associated Press also just noted that law enforcement is in the middle of a 25-year low for new officers entering the field and locally our community is growing the demands on officers are growing the demands on sergeants or administrative staff are also increasing and when there's less people to do it those demands just compound hey chief When you mention agencies what do you what do you mean are you saying police forces or police police departments or Sheriff's offices yeah 14 of them have closed since 2017. well yeah so tough tough times and that impacts everything so Staffing if you don't achieve the proper Staffing it impacts budget which uh you all are aware of and then internally it definitely impacts the morale ability to train ability for anyone on our team to use vacation hours and it impacts our own safety in order to keep each other safe keep our community safe and then retaining employees just due to the the more work that comes when there's less people to do it uh retention is definitely impacted so recent history since November of 2021 I've hired nine police officers and I've also lost seven police officers due to resignations or terminations since December of 2021 so it has been a busy ongoing hiring um process the entire 15 months that I've been here some of the reasons that were mentioned in uh in exit interviews the profession is too stressful and dangerous they're no longer interested in law enforcement as a career the mental trauma and PTSD from working in law enforcement was to blame the profession it's not worth the stress arising from a lack of social support for law enforcement uh one accepted a position in the private sector which according to them pays more has better benefits and is significantly less stressful and we also lost one to uh let who lateral to a larger Department with greater opportunities and different assignments and schedules and also offers better benefits so just the impact internally the vacancies as I mentioned they they are a hindrance to effective officer safety morale and the the use of vacation and and any other leave hours you all have definitely seen the additional overtime spending that comes when we are short in order to backfill those shifts and to be completely honest if every single open shift had been taken on overtime the overtime spending would be significantly more there are many overtime shifts that that go not filled just due to people not being available or interested in working more so as bad as it is right now on the overtime budget it could definitely be a lot worse just due to the the vacancies that that exist when when we have lost folks uh and then along with losing folks it's the train so the nine new hires all of those new officers have been trained and that puts a burden on the field training officers so the ones that are required to uh uh to train the new new folks into every aspect of policing during their fto process that that comes with additional overtime as well so right now it's kind of the predicament of of running short backfilling with overtime in order to allow for training uh vacation use solid and suspense time use so it's just this it's it's a it's not a fun situation to be in to try to determine whether or not somebody can go to training because then we'll be short and then do we do we backfill for overtime so it's it's very uh very real and it definitely has an impact when we're not able to keep Staffing to where we need it to be just as a as a community we're growing problems are growing with the population I'm pretty proud about uh how much we're actually listening to the community we've had uh Community safety meetings we've we've gone out a handful of times and and had coffee around the community and we're asking people uh what their thoughts are and and how we can help them calls are becoming more violent we we've had two homicide investigations going on right now 13 CSC investigations 72 assaults 11 weapon offenses 59 officer responses to resistance and each of these categories they're all increased from this date in 2020 to 2021 so they're they're growing uh violent crime in general Minnesota is also increasing aggravated assaults robbery rape murder all increase from 2020 to 2021 and just generally the the daily demands of and responsibilities of police officers they're harder and more stressful than ever there's a lot of pressure on on Cops these days and those those stressors are absolutely felt especially when there's fewer people and every single agency that I've talked to they're all short I haven't talked to another chief that said yeah we're fully staffed we we don't have a staffing issue going on right now so we're all in the same boat everybody is is hurting for finding new applicants so it does just push the the workload on the ones that are sticking around and eventually that is going to lead to more people burning out on the job being unhappy having some health issues and and rethinking their profession themselves so moving forward just big picture uh we need more cops in the U.S in Minnesota and and right here in North St Paul to have a greater impact on reducing crime uh in our in a research article for Crime crime uh prevention they pointed to the certainty of being caught is vastly more powerful deterrent than the punishment and police deter crime by increasing the perception that criminals will be caught and punished if we don't have the Staffing to increase that perception and to actually live out the reality that we are catching people doing crimes we're not able to impact the crime deterrent as much as I would like to So currently uh I'm trying to get support from uh Minnesota Chiefs of police for a bill that would provide State funding to cover all employee health care costs for every single peace officer in Minnesota with single or family coverage I think this would be a dramatic Improvement to the crisis and retention recruitment as well as morale for every single officer on any agency throughout the state I'm not a big fan of the uh some of the ideas of the the bonuses being offered I would rather see us have some State support to step in and say we value police officers we're going to take care of the health care costs so that's that's something I'm definitely trying to get support for internally we just need we need some solutions to keep our officers safe to keep our community safe to keep our our officers that are here and to attract future officers put together some of the Recruitment and Retention strategies that went on the post board and spent a decent amount of time because there are so many agencies on the Minnesota post board that are hiring right now but I tried to summarize uh what most that I could find that are offering just different types of uh strategies for recruitment Roseville five thousand dollars for entry level ten thousand dollars for a lateral police officers is being offered in their hiring process Minneapolis PD seven thousand dollars in hiring after fto and probation is completed Edina PD longevity pay after a handful of years 4 7 10 and 13. Hopkins PD 5000 for laterals East Grand Forks 5000 hiring bonus 2500 for moving expenses Centennial Lakes PD 5000 hiring bonus if you have three years of experience Elk River is doing three thousand dollars in tuition reimbursement Brooklyn Park five thousand for laterals uh front front end loading vacation time Golden Valley uh heavy on the PTO time three thousand dollars after FDL is completed uh uh five thousand dollar incentive after you complete three years saying Cloud PD they're they're jumping onto the healthcare uh uh taking care of that for for officers so single insurance is fully paid by the by Saint Cloud Family Insurance is 90 percent of of uh the employer paid Meeker County Sheriff's Office thousand dollar hiring bonus full vacation Bank upon hiring and a student loan assistance program U of MPD five thousand dollar hiring bonus 75 percent of uh tuition coverage likely at the U of M uh Prairie Island PD 5000 hiring bonus laterals get six thousand so different strategies that's kind of on the local level what's what's going on uh there's there's more than that on the on the pulse board but that's that's just a handful of the ones that are out there on a national level uh in Alabama they are hiring 14 police uh recently retired officers from that same agency to work as part-time police officers and they're not paid benefits because they they are only part-time employees but they're helping fill the immediate needs of vacancies and shortages by by getting some recently retired folks back in San Francisco is doing the same thing for beat Patrol officers uh sheriff's office in Oklahoma 100 percent paid employee health care in Virginia they're short 250 officers at an agency out there they're doing the hiring of retired officers and they also are implementing an online citizen reporting application on the state of Washington they're offering ten thousand dollars of retention bonus for for each deputy and a fifteen thousand dollar lateral bonus for uh laterals that come in so just trying to take some of those things and then thinking a little outside the box uh I would absolutely support any anything along the lines of paying for our Police Department employees for their health care um this was one that that recently came up a thousand dollar annual mental health spending allowance that any member of the police department could use with some parameters around it whether it's towards uh a gym membership or some kind of medical Medical Care anything that helps their their mental health mental or physical health to let them spend that money uh just to let them know that we value them and their mental health and we're going to take care of whatever it is because at the end of the day everybody's everybody's different so what works for one person to help their mental health might not work for another person so this is a way to say here's a little Freedom with some parameters around you know what what that might actually be for approved in within that spending but I I would strongly support um the the mental health spending allowance creating that I think that would absolutely help the retention uh going forward tuition reimbursement hiring part-time officers recently retired would be a major benefit to so if we have injuries and they're going to be out for several months which we we currently do then if we're able to call a recently retired officer from uh here or any agency around in Ramsey County that is willing to come back they have the training they have and they're still their pulse license is still activated getting them to come back in to help fill the the gaps would would offer a lot of benefits and definitely help out the budget because then we're not backfilling with overtime and hurting even more longevity pay increases at 5 10 15 and 20 years your ongoing support this Council has been great with supporting our officers and just uh knowing how much that actually means it is it's a recruitment and a retention strategy in and of itself because officers appreciate working for cities and Sheriff's offices where the elected leaders are supportive of them and their profession so definitely continuing that and then ultimately getting more officers and investigators on our team not asking for any kind of vote obviously is a workshop setting but just trying to shine some light on things that we have going on and some things that I'd like to have us start thinking about in the future when it comes to retention and recruitment happy to answer any questions again I you know I'm sorry we're in this predicament and you know in the last two years I've been very uh The Narrative has not been very good for police officers but I think that our Council you know in our city definitely supports our police department so I think we have that going for us you know we have a council and community that really supports having our own police force and so I think that adds a lot but I was at the Regional Council mayor's uh the other day and this narrative is being said by every mayor out there we did have a representative from the uh from the walls from Governor walls there and evidently that is going to be one of their initiatives for this year is to help with cities with their police force I mean that was set at that meeting so that's a good news you know hopefully that's out there and it's coming down the pipeline that what you've said not only with our city cities surrounding us other states you know we're all fighting the same battle to try to recruit you know people into the law enforcement and it's it's difficult you hire nine people and seven resigned that says a lot right there that that's The Narrative it just is not is not good right now uh so to keep those seven how do we keep those seven people you know if the from you know keep them from resigning and I think that's what we've got to figure out you know so I mean I'm in favor of you know you're going to have a whole new Council here in a in another month uh but I think uh you know as much as we can do that to keep that narrative positive narrative going not from not only from here but to the next Council to help with some sort of what is it going to take you know is it going to be having meetings and what can we do you know you see this five thousand dollar bonus out there is that really helping you know is that really making a big impact or is it something bigger than that is it something that we need to do uh to change that narrative that we are a safe Community you know we have a great police chief we have a great police force you know they love working within the city because they have the support from all of us how can we you know keep those recruitments coming and stay in here so that I guess that's you know my take is how do we keep them here if is is it just money I don't think that's it because that's the same narrative we're all fighting for the same police officers everyone's fighting to get you know good good police officers within all the cities around us so yeah I I agree with you and I appreciate the support and yeah I like you said I don't think it is that benefit you know law enforcement attracts people that have a big heart of service and I don't think it's the motivation be a signing bonus that is going to make people say you know what you know I'm going to take this one because it's a thousand dollars more than this other agency and nor is that you know I don't I don't know if that's the strategy that that we really want as a profession to to say you know come over here we're giving you a bunch of money to come in the door but you know along the spending allowance and the proper Staffing and the support and Health Care coverage and um yeah happy to and I think that's one thing they mentioned too is Health Care at that meeting that was one of the things that the governor's aide had mentioned something about health care that's fantastic to hear if there's already support for it absolutely Council numbers yeah well I mean I appreciate your presentation I think you kind of outline the reality that your industry finds itself in and and the struggle that we locally are having you know we've we've approved and budgeted 19 spots we're asking you to fill those and you're telling us the difficulties that you're experiencing here and so some of the things I agree you know this is going to be the next council is going to be dealing with this but I think you know to the question what can we do right now I think there are things we can do right now one of them being you had forwarded uh Sheriff Fletcher's letter to the State Legislative legislature saying hey call a special session we need to deal with this now that's something we could all do I already did copied our you know Senator and and State Rep and encourage them to say Hey you know call for this and and get into action but obviously not all things after the election hopefully they will make that a priority and address that and so some of these things may may you know get some financial help from that but um also you talked about your initiative to start this Statewide Health Care coverage I think between now and the end of the year we had two more meetings we could possibly have a city resolution supporting that and we can approve it as a council and forward that on to these individuals because I think in the past Senator wieger and representative Lilly has stated you know anytime you're trying to do something if you can get a resolution as a city it's in like an official document and they kind of use that to push their bills through or whatever to show that there's local support so encouraging us to do that that could be something we could do um I'm just curious you know like you say we're we're kind of fighting for the same limited hiring pool of those nine officers that you hired since you were here how many were the term is lateral transfer but for those who may not understand it's an office an already sworn officer from another either sheriff's department or police department coming on and working here how many of those have we hired I think there was four okay of that nine and have any of those four been ones that have resigned or left one of them did resign okay yeah so you know and I agree it's it it kind of sucks to just say hey let's let's throw some money out there and and this isn't really a job or the issues you're facing are more than money but if we're not doing it in other communities are we're putting ourselves at a competitive disadvantage so to answer the question does it work or not maybe it works for other communities maybe it doesn't I don't think we can definitively say it does or it doesn't here unless we try it and so you outlined the negative impacts short staffing can have in a variety of different ways I would be full support in saying let's try offering that bonus incentive because I would imagine that would be more highly targeted towards those lateral transfers and in speaking to some colleagues in other cities councils council members in other cities they've heard that there potentially will be a large influx of that lateral transfer activity in larger cities like Minneapolis and larger Sheriff's departments like the Hennepin County Sheriff's Department so that you know potentially you could see a lot of that type of activity and you know just two to kind of Market North Saint Paul is we are a different city and you would think you know and it seems like in the past before what has transpired in the last three years we struggled to maintain officers here because we're only so big and we can only offer so many opportunities whereas officers that work at a larger City can get into other things or or like the county and all the different things they have so we would lose we would you know we're kind of like the the farm system if you will for lack a better term not trying to make a disparaging comment about our officers but we would hire new officers train them here they go through everything they're here for four or five years and then they're off to Saint Paul or Minneapolis or Hennepin County or wherever and that's a struggle that we've always had so what you'd think now there may be some desire for officers to get out of those environments or in cities that aren't as supportive of their police departments and come here to show like hey we uh we support the police here the council's got full of support the community has full support we may not have canine units in in all these other things but what we do have is something that's attractive because it is maybe a little less stressful than what you're dealing with or can deal with in other cities so maybe there's some you know some angle there that we can kind of present why it's more beneficial to work in North St Paul but um the I'd be cautious about these labeling some of these incentives like you're saying a thousand dollar um Wellness and the reason why is I I mean I again I support the idea but the problem is on our site we got to look at it differently because we're as you're aware we're dealing with unions I think there's four different unions within the police department correct there's the Sergeants oh it's three well the chief would fall under that fourth so there's the patrol officers the sergeants and then the Chief okay so there's three different unions anytime we make a change that deals with unions and it impacts all the unions the Public Works Union and all that so we need to look at that as it may be a good thing to do for the police department and for the reasons we're talking about but then it has an unintended consequence with now we're going to renegotiate with the Public Works Union they're saying well look what you gave them you got to give that to us so it could you know kind of bust a budget down the road you know not that a thousand dollars which you're so I you know that's where if we were to go that route I think it would be more beneficial just say we're offering this bonus and we're not putting strings to it you know and the fact that again we have a facility here where people can work out free of charge I don't know if other cities have that so things like that I think you know are things that we can do immediately some of this other stuff I think is more long-term but you know I think a resolution supporting that health care bill if we could do that if we can't do it in December maybe get that on the docket for the new Council who I don't see why anyone would not it doesn't cost any money um and then looking at those uh those hiring bonuses because you know you're you're basically saying right now we're short is it eight officers no we're sure two right now uh two full-time we have two uh officers uh either out on injury or on light duty right now but okay I misread your email then when I thought you said you're currently dealing with 11 officers but no thankfully it's okay all right well I was gonna say holy cow but all right well I mean I would be full support of a bonus instead of um to track those lateral transfers I think that's obviously I would think who you Target first just because it's not as intensive time consuming to train someone um even though they're still dealing with some training and then uh yeah encouraging the council to you know reach out to state senators and representatives to have them support the either the special session which probably isn't going to happen or just looking at what you're proposing that legislative Health Care um whatever they call it HealthCare coverage for police officers yeah appreciate it yeah that's more Cole it wasn't that long ago we cheered when you're fully staffed I know I did I think we were all incredibly excited when that actually happened um I from your opening com comments I I kind of kept a tally and I don't want to say I I was happy with with the reasons for leaving but the fact that of those who departed one jumped for greater opportunity greater promotion greater pay it wasn't everybody so I mean to me anyways I read into the fact that we're we from a from a pay standpoint we've got to be somewhat competitive um I don't know if that's a fair statement or not but I I think that we're probably somewhat competitive um I I immediately go to what tools do you what tools do you need that you don't have today from the you know from the list that you gave us um that will help get people here and and retain people um you know I mean I in my notes I put down finder fee do you have anybody any current officers right now who have friends that may not be happy with they are do we offer something internally from a from a finder fee um that both parties can can benefit from um longevity pay I like that do don't we have that do we we have one level of longevity pain now right and what is that at 10 years it's one and a half percent that was that 10 years I believe is that 10 or 15 years do you remember Dan ten I love the idea of of finding recently or currently we're you know currently retired officers that are out there um both Minneapolis and St Paul have lost a lot of I've had a lot of retire have a lot I had a lot of officers retire I think that's great that's potentially some some untapped Market that's available um so you've got my support in figuring this out because we celebrated and we're happy about it when you were fully staffed we want to get you back there as quickly as we can um I did have one question um you know you've read and and heard you loud and clear when we talked about this last year and Etc but um because your current officers are taking additional shifts and additional duties we know that I'm assuming that their vacation is probably building up and then I didn't understand that the vacation probably is kind of maybe not as bad as it was last year but are you finding that you've got a lot of officers that aren't able to use their current vacation and do we need to take a look at doing something like we did last year where I think we paid out a percentage or paid out all the unused vacation we might we're that's something that uh we're definitely aware of this year so but it just it's it's been harder to even do that because now we're already short um but we're very um we're really trying to make sure that people are using their vacation so we're just not looking at the numbers entirely but just knowing that every single Sergeant has been very aware of of each officer trying to uh use those hours I think we're in a lot better situation than we were last year but there there might be an officer or two that does run into an excess of ours because I just want to make sure that we're mindful of that too and from a retention standpoint um you know please bring that back to to council because I would fully support again this year what we did last year I appreciate that thank you um other than that I don't have anything other than the fact that several of the several of the candidates left just due to stress um I would certainly hope that in the vetting process bringing somebody on board that that is addressed and talked about and they know what they're signing up for um that's that's it's kind of it's kind of sad it's tough uh that is actually that's one of the questions in my final interview just how uh how stress is handled and um unfortunately I saw it at the county I had a lot of really close friends who who uh just left the profession entirely over the past two years so um but trying to yeah absolutely trying to ask questions to see if that can be recognized in the hiring process but then even I mean I'm supportive of the ones that come to me and say you know I've had enough of law enforcement and I'm I'm still supportive of them as much as it hurts to lose an employee I you know want them to be happy with life going forward so and that's not her Saint Paul that's just everywhere that's everywhere yeah just losing officers and them coming in and you know it's the narrative right now is what they're they're dealing with yeah so with that said you know I I you know you have I think you have all of our support you know how do we how do we figure this out and I and it is I think it's you got to think outside the box you know you really got to understand where the stress is coming how do you how do you eliminate that stress you know how can we how can we help you do we pay for a vacation do we you know I don't know I mean those are things that you know we need to do things that uh will eliminate some of that stress and change that narrative another narrative's got to be changed not just here in the city it's got to be changed all over the place I don't know what the uh what the numbers are for our new recruits in in the academy at all is it is it way down is it coming up now I mean are they seeing people coming in or is it still no it's still pretty low I I got numbers recently for uh the amount of people that had successfully passed the post-test and last year was uh very low and this year there was a few more that had successfully passed it but I'll take that you know if it's increasing that's good better than continuing the slide downwards so the demand is so high in that the people coming in are so low that everyone's fighting for these new recruits right Carrie oh uh councilmember Wong hi everyone I apologize that I can't be there today um I want to thank you Chief baber and rock for your presentation I had really great um data and I really appreciated your focus on Mental Health I think that's something that I have consistently seen you advocate for for your team and um really really appreciate that um similar to council member Cole I'm I think that the um the retirees may be a really great opportunity for us to um explore um I also am uh interested to look at maybe potentially longevity pay when we look at the long term um and I'm just wondering in terms of Staffing I know that obviously police officers make up a police force and I also know that Maplewood is exploring um Mental Health Providers as part of the team and it looks like based off of your presentation that mental health was something that was coming up in the community and just wondering what your thoughts are in regards to that approach I think it's a great idea um would love to have some mental health professionals on staff with us um definitely not in replacement of any of the officers but in addition to we would absolutely appreciate uh we reach out to crisis a lot and uh they're very helpful when they're available and and that means you know they can send somebody out and a reasonable amount of time which when we need them now in whatever situation we're in um an hour to two hours just isn't reasonable for us to help that situation out so if we had some in-house mental health professionals I would absolutely support that unfortunately it you know I think there's debates that go on in in other cities about whether or not that can reduce the amount of officers with the levels of crime that are we have and just the um the violence that's going on you know it it there wouldn't be a savings it wouldn't be able to say no we don't need you know two more cops next year or or whatever it is because we have these mental health professionals but it would absolutely absolutely be a another helpful piece of of our Police Department if we had some in-house mental health professionals helping us out and even doing the follow-up I know a lot of times we'll we'll go to a call involving somebody having a mental health crisis but then it's the however that situation is involved is is resolved in the immediate it's it's the well we don't have the time to call them two weeks later to say hey how's it going how did that treatment did you know your trip to the hospital did that help you do you still need help so having that professional that's there to to make that ongoing contact and check in with them it's fantastic I would absolutely love to have that it's a great idea councilmember Peterson yeah I think you've really developed a good culture I've heard some great things about your officers I mean you handle that situation a couple weeks ago you know top notch um I would agree with the council member Thorson about you know reaching out to our officials are uh newly well elected officials on um you know getting a resolution and uh it's it's a tough nut to crack I get that you know but um I think we offer we have a little bit more to offer I think um than other other police departments I've checked around and talked to other Council people but all I could do is I wish you good luck and most whatever we can do we'll do it thank you thank you thank you all very much I appreciate the support as always one other question the part-time angle if is that something that would be exclusively offered to just retired offers officers or would you open that up to even you know like say if there was someone who lived in North St Paul or Maplewood or Oakdale that worked at another jurisdiction but potentially wanted to work here part-time is that something you'd open up to current officers and other jurisdictions or is there some rules against that or I'm I'm not sure I haven't uh I'm not sure of any rule against that I'm not just not sure on what that would uh on the realities of what that would look like for their availability if if their Department their home department is is a short staffed and asking more as most departments are their availability on picking up additional shifts I don't know if it would be there so I think as far as openings and who would be available to pick up shifts on uh you know a day or two's notice I think the retirees would be our best Market um but definitely open it up to retirees from you know agencies around the Metro who wouldn't just put a parameter on must be a North St Paul retiree just to try to broaden the rule of potential interest there so great presentation I know this is a bigger picture item you know for for you for us uh for the surrounding communities uh you're also working with a county attorney Choi in regards to a lot of the violent crimes that are going on out there with juvenile juveniles and how we is it the race racecore is that how they determine that we're trying to figure that out because there's a lot of miners out there who are committing the crimes who are not you're not able to put them into some sort of care uh maybe you want to just mention that a little bit that there is things that are going in the background with a lot of these crimes that are being committed by the same individuals is it helping is are we in are we going in the right direction it's a long process yeah it's it's been a lot of conversations about the juvenile crime issue um we're in a bad place with with the amount of juvenile crime um and that ultimately feeds into the retention and recruitment problems uh for asking the same officers to go to the same incident uh you know a couple days apart from kids committing some violent uh terrible crime and then we have them arrested safely and take them to the jdc and then their the system there's no resources available they're not detained and then we meet the same kids four days later after we just thankfully safely arrested them for a similar crime not too long ago you know that's a problem officers don't want to have to get lucky going through the same arrest and you know for their own safety for the safety of community having having to do that over and over again that is frustrating and that is absolutely stressful to safely make it through once an incident of whatever the crime is and then to have to meet the same exact crime and the same suspects very shortly after because the juvenile justice system is the way it is right now that that pushes officers away from this job and it it increases just the risk to the public right now when it comes to Violent juvenile crime so yeah working on that in the in the background and not so much yeah not even really background that's that's another it's on the burner for sure uh we do have police Civil Service here Dave uh thank you for being here you know I think it's going to take a team effort from you know the council from police civil service with the police department you have our support we can do these resolutions you know if that's going to help uh you know at least in the short term get those out there showing that you know city of North Saint Paul we support our police we need help we need help from from you out there we need help you need help with trying to uh talk talking to Choi and all that so that there's got to be a solution you know we got to change that narrative I appreciate appreciate your support definitely all of everyone and I think there are other you know I think there's there's things outside the box that we can think of that possibly could help you know at least help in some some little way I agree okay you're moving the Drone program I was told I only had 40 minutes we just give we'll just give you guys all drones and uh say you know I think that it's not a bad idea before you move on to that do you mind if I nope go ahead uh I just want to take a moment to just think bedroom there were just the incredible work that they did in him and his team and Department the way they followed up on such a stressful situation and I was talking to him on the phone I could hear two other people trying to talk to him at the same time and his follow-up making sure that his team was taken care of also the victims of the scene and his even his follow-up after the fact and with the families and he just did a spectacular job and your dedication and how you feel towards your officers is just really shine through and here's the real asset so I really appreciate your good work yeah thanks thanks for saying that we definitely had a there's definitely a team uh Team response multiple agencies and uh yeah a lot a lot of great police work and collaboration on that one but um thanks for saying that you know Chief would it be beneficial to have like a little committee put together talk about outside the box how can we you know get people thinking how can we help the police department uh could be with the police Civil Service you know a couple council members and you know at least showing that we want us we want to keep it going we want to keep thinking about how can we help I think that's a great idea yeah I think all all the input and ideas the more the better because I'm thinking things there's things in the city here that we're able to possibly provide you know we've got chiropractors in the cities we got I mean just yep those are just little things that might help absolutely yeah sure yeah I'm going to come up hi I'm Dave McKenzie on the Civil Service Commission just want to wonder what would it take you guys have the connections in the city to at least buy the officers a meal at a certain time whenever they have a chance like at one of the local restaurants to give us give them their support from the community as we say thank you so Dave I think that's a great idea you know we did a picnic the council cooked at the picnic we bought the hamburgers and everything we served them right but I think those are the things you know if it's a picnic if it's taking them off for dinner if it's getting a chiropractor here a massage here it's those things all put together could add up to a lot of good things for the police department I'm thinking do you think Max North St Paul would donate enough food on these officers that are on duty or whether they can come in on off-duty day to have a lunch that would be phenomenal that they're appreciated for everything they do right they've got we've got four commissioners they're quite dedicated to the city and we look for the best possible candidates in the interviews that we do do and we have gotten one fabulous transfer that we are elated to have for the information that he has brought to this community from the City of Minneapolis who's that oh [Music] yes I'll tell you what he turned our heads when he prevent presented that information you know and all of us sat home watching the Minneapolis burn well guys like them were out there those nights they didn't know which way to go they had a call for every second work into that same boat if you guys can find some money to put on besides the two I'd love to have two or three more and even if they come in as a part-time but offer them the full-time benefits and as we work through this to keep our our officers the more appreciated that they are the more they're gonna they're gonna say you're part of that committee I am okay thank you are you part of the committee I would be okay yeah yeah because those are the things that we want those are one of the best Chiefs I've ever worked with the other Chief we had was a little bit lack on his communication this guy right here I don't want to tell him that too many well I know well I saw him this morning taking his children to school I didn't even know who he was he looked just like a regular human being so that's all I have to say but I'll tell you what if we can work out a plan where one of the maybe it could be at the VFW or the the legion wherever yep I would love to be able to pre have these guys appreciate it we could even get maybe a little uh uh Hamburger Stand bringing all these ideas out as that committee should be well I well I'm the helpful kind of guy I help a lot of people out you do I know you do and um I would just love to be able to sit down with some of the cops that we've hired and talked to them yep that's what it's all about giving them the benefit those guys work some long hours that night and you listen you I watch that Fletcher show live on PD on for Ramsey County all you hear are shots fired shots fired what's coming here right right thank you thank you Dave thanks Dave so I think having you know having that committee would be you know having Dave on there and having you know a council member and you know some maybe some residents let's keep it moving forward let's get let's get these ideas out there and be able to show that we care and keep moving it forward if that helps make sense it's absolutely be great thanks a lot Dave for your your positive comments I appreciate it so Jerome drone drone Switching gears roll right into it roll right into it okay uh so kind of put this together uh with Sergeant battle which has helped just trying to just be as transparent about the Jerome program as possible and and uh it just I think there's a lot of unknowns with hopefully we're trying to reduce those unknowns with a couple slides here so uh just the general what's an unmanned aerial vehicle uh well that's the fancy word for a drone uh or a UAV if for short small aircraft without a pilot crew or passenger on board uh in order to operate one all of the following components are required a ground-based controller human operator or Pilot and the internal technology system to allow the controller to communicate with the UAV or drone what does one look like uh that picture right there is uh very similar to the version that we're we're hoping to get all those little components are different uh things the one's a speaker lights um I don't know if you can see my point right now there we go that's a battery pack for it this is a charging kit these are the propellers for them and various chords to make all of the technology work and that's the controller for it so just a it's nice having a picture so you can actually see it uh what are the capabilities the models available for public so that's I think an important thing to make it's not some high high top secret law enforcement uh technology this is anybody can go out and buy this drone um it's it yeah it's it is what it is it's a it's a public version of a drone a little fancier than just your one from uh the average Supermarket but it's it's definitely available for public purchase it gets you about 30 minutes of suspended flight time it has two cameras capable of thermal imaging so what do we plan on using them for uh Public Safety emergencies between us and the fire department uh training we need to make sure we know how to actually fly them so we're not running them into buildings and crashing them or you know having them just fall out of the sky so definitely snowman you can't we actually did find a drone on top of the Snowman not too long ago was not our drone though we don't have them yet but yeah uh crash reconstruction crime scene documentation uh really the main thing finding missing people whether it's a suspect or somebody that walks away and uh is a vulnerable adult um that is really the one of the most prominent uses that I see coming for us there are occasionally there might be if you if you get a judge to sign a warrant for some immediate investigation use that is also an option searching for fugitives and definitely along the community engagement wise it gives us a cool toy to show kids and community members you know this is what our drones look like so it'd be a pretty fun Community engagement element to it I'm just taking the car show would that be something that potentially can be used for yeah I mean there's there's a handful we'll get into all that but there's a handful of uses that uh we're only authorized to to deploy them on but if it is a community engagement type thing at the car show then and there wasn't uh or if there is a known safety risk to it then that could be another reason but yeah that's a good opportunity to to uh get out there and engage the community uh what we're not planning on using them for and we're not allowed to use them for to conduct random surveillance activities to Target a person based solely on actual or perceived characteristics such as race ethnicity national origin religion sex sexual orientation gender identity or expression economic status age cultural group or disability to harass intimidate or discriminate against any individual or group to conduct personal business of any type and we cannot intentionally record or transmit images of any location where a person would have reasonable expectation of privacy for example they're inside their house and they're in their yard or or their enclosure operators and observers have to take reasonable precautions to avoid even inadvertently recording or transmitting images where there is this reasonable expectation of privacy you can't put a weapon on them not planning to do that we're not going to deploy them with facial recognition or biometric matching technology that's per state statute and unless authorized by a warrant or for purposes permitted in this policy our UAV should not be used to collect data on public protests or demonstrations so what are the nine authorized uses so State Statute word for word 626.19 is the use of unmanned aerial vehicle statutes it gave us or any law enforcement agency these nine reasons for warrantless use of drones so first one during or in the aftermath of an emergency situation that involves the risk of death or bodily harm to a person over a public event where there's a heightened risk of risk to safety of participants or bystanders to counter the risk of a terroristic terroristic attack to prevent the loss of life and property in natural or man-made disasters to conduct a threat assessment in anticipation of a specific event to collect information from a public area if there's Reasonable Suspicion of criminal activity to collect information for crash reconstruction purposes for training or public relations purposes or for purposes unrelated to law enforcement at the request of a government entity provided that the government entity makes the request in writing so those are the the nine authorized uses per state statute that every single law enforcement agency operating internal program has to abide by so additional oversight uh by January 15th of each year we have to if we get a drone program we have to report to the commission of Public Safety information from the prior calendar year the number of times that the Drone was deployed without a search warrant including the date of the deployment and of those nine warrantless reasons we have to enter in that code each time for whatever our deployment was we have to submit that information to the BCA we also have myself and sergeant bradwich will be overseeing the entire program and authorizing drone deployments and then our own policy policy 606. so additional oversight drones are pretty heavy heavily they're regulated by the feds and the state MnDOT is the state level agency control which control controls drones we have to register them with the Minnesota Department of Transportation and the FAA is is the federal oversight and we have to operate under the small aircraft rule which requires that our Pilots must obtain a remote pilot certificate which is a pretty intense class that requires a lot of hours of studying actually in order to pass the test we have to register our drones with the FAA and then our Pilots do have to comply with the flight restrictions in part 107 or any waivers that we might obtain from the FAA for flying them a couple more slides uh just as there are rules on the road for driving your car the rules in the sky when flying a drone so what some of those FAA part 107 rules are always avoiding any manned aircraft never operating in a careless or Reckless manner keeping your drone within your line of sight you can't be a pilot and a visual Observer for more than one drone at the same time not flying your drone over people unless they are directly participating in the operation not operating your drone from a moving vehicle or aircraft and then the maximum height unless you have a FAA waiver is 400 feet above ground level or 400 feet above a structure and the maximum speed is 100 miles an hour which these drones that we're looking at are do not come close to getting to 100 miles an hour do you know how high it is so is there always a height um yep so this if you're under that 400 yeah yeah your screen tells you exactly how how high you are sure uh program cost pretty important so the initial cost for two drones the pilot training the additional batteries and the propeller guards is 19 306 300 and six cents and then annually it's sixty two hundred dollars and sixteen cents and the annual costs cover the uh pilot data license I talked to axon a lot to a really fine tune on what we are actually getting for from the annual fees because it's not I mean that's just it's not a small number so it's all of the fees for the pilots in order to access the data that anytime that they're flying it records um and that's it's how the the pilots tap into that system and then we actually we have to get a license for each drone and that is what uh provides the live stream streaming capability and the program management functionality so those are the costs just some data on 2021 so 76 law enforcement agencies in Minnesota reported using drones for a total of 2265 deployments last year at the most common used reason code 46 percent of the time or 1042 deployments was for training or public relations purposes so that's that is the number one reason why law enforcement agencies at least in 2021 had been flying drones was for training their public relations purposes so other agencies are definitely seeing the uh the benefit from uh from a community engagement standpoint for for drones the second most used reason code or 23 percent of the time 512 deployments was during or in the aftermath of an emergency situation involving risk of death or bodily harm to a person and the third most used reason was to collect information for crash reconstruction purposes after a serious or deadly Collision on the road so our our intentions are exactly the same as as a guarantee will uh be very similar if not exactly similar to the the top three reason codes in 2021 from other law enforcement agencies we want to fly drones to train to build relationships at community events Define missing people or fugitive suspects to document crime scenes and accidents and to enhance the efficiency of the public safety that we're delivering in our community and also to reduce the potential for use as a force if we can spot a suspect 20 yards away in a field from where our officers are on the ground looking for them and then we know exactly where that suspect is and we're able to call out to them instead of just be surprised by us stumbling on them the potential for for that being a situation that now doesn't need the use of force dramatically increases when we have a drone tell us exactly where the person we're looking for is so uh yeah that's that's the Ben did I forget anything be kind of quiet there right you gotta add something to it because you've nailed it all the chief nailed it all I got nothing else to add wow I appreciate both of you it's uh councilmember Peterson when do you anticipate getting this drone um sometime in January as long as uh our policy is is approved by the council foreign looks good okay we're getting councilmember Wong has a question [Music] presentation um I appreciate you putting in the policies um that the state has as well um I do have a few questions and this is more of a matter of public perception and and and uh community building Community Trust so um this may be what you're presenting maybe the facts but how do you intend to build relationships with folks who are concerned about surveillance and you know maybe potentially their violation of civil rights uh well I we opened it up for public comment we received three public comments I reached out to the folks that actually had questions about the Drone program that uh were very similar to what you just said they're you know just questioning the nature and intentions of the program and after the response that I gave them they replied that they were the police department's biggest fan so I think we were able to convince one that there's no negative intentions for our Police Department's use of drones and there's no uh intention of you know spying or or Big Brother watching folks is truly a public safety enhancement program that we're hoping to bring to us but happy to just answer any questions anytime I mean if there's anybody that ever questions them I encourage them to reach out and they can come see the drones and and see how they work and you know we're going to be transparent as the statute requires us to with the the data on how how we're using them but happy to to answer any any questions from anybody great thank you um I I can anticipate that there may be for those that have not seen um any um or have not reached out that there may be a large part of the community that is still unaware and so um I'm just um anticipating that there may be more need for education or Outreach in that regard um I do have um some other questions as well you have noted that of the second and the third reason um these drones are deployed um how often has um our department seen um these types of um calls in which we would deploy a drone uh I don't have a firm number uh a lot for uh unfortunately well not uh I mean it's emergency situations that are on a larger scale uh lately there's been more than I want that's for sure um but you know it's any situation that is going to benefit from the use of a drone so if if the incident is there's no information that the incident is traveling further than the immediate scene then there's no benefit to deploying a drone because everything that we um it's all contained so there therefore we wouldn't be in the situation where a drone is going to be deployed crash reconstruction we've had a couple uh dangerous and recently A Deadly crash so um yeah several incidents great thank you for that it just helped is helpful to see you know a little bit more of the context in which um deployment may happen here versus um on a Statewide level so I'm just trying to understand more contextually here sure and then I do have another question in regards to um the administration time and staff time allocated to this is this something that is going to be um time I mean time consuming for for officers in terms of um you know how they're you know how they're using their time is it is there a trade-off because there is data that needs to be I think deleted every seven days and some probably maintenance things like that so um what what do you anticipate that to be like sure well that's a good question uh so the data is all going to be taken care of by the uh evidence.com through the licensing fees that we're paying for anything submitted is is automatically going to the cloud and it's going to be put on that retention cycle so we won't have to go into any of the files or recordings that just is automatically deleted after seven days so there won't be any additional time there when it comes to training it's an online pilot training program I think it's about a average of 14 hours officers who are going to become Pilots will be able to complete that on duty so that's not going to come with additional overtime costs might take them a little while but they'll be able to knock them out while they're on shift but likely will benefit mentally from having the the breaks in a couple days of going through an online 14-hour course so that won't be an added expenditure for for training time as far as maintenance yeah that can also definitely be done on duty it's not going to be any additional overtime costs associated with with maintenance there might be I mean if we're in a larger scale situation where we happen to not have a drone pilot on there there could be the case of where I'm calling in somebody from the Drone team because we we need the Drone for whatever the incident is so just due to the uh the training that anybody on the Drone team is going to going to be able to provide us they they may be asked to come in uh if we we need the the Drone for an incident thank you I just have one last comment um in regards to the different uh rules that um were laid out in the state statute um and I think it was number six to collect information from a public area if there is a reasonable criminal activity sure and so I it would be helpful if there was a little bit more like explanation of what that or what parameters are around that because it seems a little bit vague to me I I agree with you and that is uh uh you know that that's the word of the state statute so we didn't we didn't alter that one bit we adopted that language because that in our own policy because that's how it came uh from the state but uh that one is confusing but my my own thoughts on let me try to pull up that slide so you're talking about number six to collect information from a public area if there's Reasonable Suspicion of criminal activity um an example that sergeant batowicz and I had thought of for this one because this was also one of the questions that uh a member of the public had asked me about and the example we thought of is if there is a handful of stolen cars being dumped in a public park it would definitely help our ability to get some information on the suspects or suspect who is responsible for doing the stolen car leaving at this park if we could have a drone getting the information instead of a marked squad car in the parking lot is not going to um someone's probably not going to drop off another stolen car right next to a marked squad car in the parking lot but if they don't know there's a drone flying over their head as they're leaving a stolen car in the same parking lot in the public area and we're able to get that license plate and ID the driver after they leave the car and then walk away from the car hopefully we can ID them and then make an arrest based on that so that's that's one example it is a vague reason for uh that's listed in the in the state statute but that's that's one thing one example I Can See For That use yeah thank you for that example that's helpful um I would say on the city level I know State Statute tends to be the kind of the Baseline for um um the law but I think looking at it from a city level to have a little bit more um have that a little bit more fleshed out on a would be helpful do you want us to change the state statute or or um to to make additional policies in regards to the state statute so like to flush out that state statute a little bit more um because State Statute is kind of the floor I would say of [Music] on the law and so when we come to the city level it would be helpful to kind of outline a little bit further and flush out some of the language to clarify to our residents um the reasons um I mean I'm open for comments or recommendations on how our policy as as we have created might be changed I'm just not sure the direction you're intending with the any any verbiage on more restrictive than State Statute allows I think it's just maybe clarifying um you know or defining maybe what you what you mean by a reasonable suspicion or criminal activity um just so it adds makes it more specific because we were saying it was vague so having it a little bit more specific can be helpful yeah I also I'm just concerned about limiting our ability if we do run into you know let's say we we listed stolen car there and then it happens to be uh meth sales happening in this parking lot then we'll you know we didn't list meth sales so now we can't fly the Drone to try to catch the meth sales going on so I think if we try to limit it or restrict this policy or the language of this policy anymore it would uh it would deter our ability to uh properly utilize it in in certain situations I can just interrupt here and and I think what councilmember Wong is is saying is that you know we're obligated as a city to follow the minimum requirements that are set forth in the state statutes and you know we we can't be less restrictive than what they're saying but we certainly can be more restrictive but I think maybe her concern is and what I was going to propose is that you know this is obviously it's new I look at this as a it's a tool that you're going to use just like all the other tools that you have in the back of your squad car and you know now that we're on that subject now I can see we have the council elect here and the mayor-elect I hope that you guys take the police department up on their offer for ride-alongs and I think you can learn a lot from that um but it's new and there's obviously anything new there's questions and concerns and it's our responsibility to you know provide tools for residents to be aware and educated so I don't know if this is up on our website yet but I think it would probably make a lot of sense to put this presentation you just gave the PowerPoint a link onto the website so people you can easily direct them to that rather than telling them well go to this council meeting and try to scroll through in the agenda and find it and also too I think to address some council member Wong's concerns is a lot of times you know if you're buying a product online there'll be a q a or FAQ section maybe adding to that to kind of give some examples like what we just discussed here tonight you know frequently asked questions about this protect particular item you know because it is vague and I I think you know there's reasons why there's vaguenist you know to like you say to to list every single specific instance where you would deploy the Drone to meet that criteria if you don't list every single one which is impossible to do then the attorneys can tear you apart in court because you failed to do that so it's probably by design that it's a little vague but to give examples of this is how we here's a scenario this is how we would address it might be helpful I mean I don't know if that's where she was going with that but um and I think you know over time you know like I said this is new we're going to have more specific instances to say well this is how we're using the Drone I think when the first when you first brought this topic up there was a question or comment about well so are you going to be flying these up and down the street you know obviously not you know that's not we're not looking to replace Patrol officers um with this and and it's not allowed by state statutes so there's just going to be a learning curve and I think getting this stuff on the website linking it to social media having these learning opportunities at uh at community events like the car show to demonstrate you know and then one other question I just had uh does Oakdale and Maplewood do they have drones are you aware of that or maybe you can't answer that um they're I don't believe so I know that I think Maplewood is is working on it new Brighton's working on it uh Roseville does have them Ramsey County Sheriff's Office does have them so other agencies and cities are and so now that we have them there's also the potential that other agencies might request them to be used like if Maplewood has a search and rescue and they know we have a a drone with that thermal capability they could potentially request Mutual aid from us to to come out and use the Drone correct absolutely okay and just out of you know time at 6 25 didn't mean to cut you off councilmember Wong but I just want to get that question there so go to Member One sure yeah um yeah I would definitely agree with council member Thorson in terms of public education around around this um I think that you know it's also another opportunity as you had mentioned to um reach out to the community and build relationships um I I would still like to kind of explore to what um degree um too specific is so let me start that again um I would be interested to explore language that may be um a little bit more specific but not very specific that it's limiting extremely limiting but to have a little bit more clarity but something for um to maybe discuss that another time since we're about to finish but thank you for your presentation thank you okay anything else we're running short of time here uh what I'd like to do possibly is put the workshop on recess right now and uh start after the general meeting is over is that possible yeah you guys are just a lot of fun for some good procedural questions but yeah that's that is appropriate um I guess I would suggest um uh I don't know if recess is the right word um I I would suggest tabling these last two points um to pick up after to pick up the workshop after um that's a term called uh to table to table until after the city council meeting is that okay with the council if we table up until after the meeting we'll finish Workshop as long as Diana you willing to stay until after the meeting to finish up the workshop okay because I want to give you time too it's and I don't want to I know you cannot say it in three minutes well you had four minutes and now you're down to three could at least gave him a shot so we'll uh we'll adjourn and then take up the Workshop after the general meeting okay uh thank you Chief uh always good to hear what's going on and the police department but I wish we had better more positive coming through us but that's the way it is today so but uh thank you and I think we're gonna let's mayor can you uh let's go ahead and do the recess plan okay yeah thank you motion to recess yeah let's go ahead and do that okay promotional recess councilmember Peterson second by council member Cole any discussion all those in favor signify by saying aye aye opposed motion carries and then Brandy we're gonna take care of you