Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> We are live. Um, it is the December 3rd Urban Economic Development Committee meeting. I'm Councelor Bellis chairing this meeting. First item on the agenda. I call this meeting to order. Second item, Leanne Helmrich reappointment to the Tulsa City County Library Commission. Term expires July 31st, 2028. Had really good attendance from council district 9. If you want to join us at any chair you see open. >> Where are you? >> Oh, here. Yeah, >> sure. >> Absolutely. >> I'm bearing gifts. Oh, >> this is these are >> as long as they're under a certain dollar amount. 35. >> Well, I didn't actually Yeah, I'm not sure how much they [laughter] paid, but >> these are our fast facts for the library. [laughter] >> We get accepted. >> Absolutely. >> This is them if you guys want some more, too. >> This is great. >> These look great. >> Yeah, they're so great. >> Just in case people think, "Oh, do people really go to the library?" We have one of the best library systems in the country. >> Well, yeah. If you wouldn't mind um telling us a bit about your experience serving, why you'd like to continue serving, if there's anything you want to highlight [laughter] about the library to us, please let us know because we do have the like literal best library system in the nation. So, >> that would be a really um good reason. I mean, I love it. I it's such a privilege for me and um you know at a time when we get bad publicity about education in our state all and everything we've got this library that's a beacon of um all sorts of experiences learning reading community everything and it's a real privilege for me to be a part of it so >> thank you so much [clears throat] for your service um yeah is there anything um that you guys are currently kind of working on that you think we should know about or that you're like want to continue working on? >> Well, we're in a capital campaign right now, which is um I I would I really am looking forward to finishing that out. So, we're building four new libraries in the system. And our system is so interesting because and it's different than a lot of systems in the country um in that [clears throat] we aren't just one building. We're 24 >> and um we're all over the county and so I would encourage you we're building we just we just opened the new Brookside library and it's just magical. Um, and then we're working [clears throat] on the new Ruticil and um, Kim Johnson is just exceptional and she thinks of everything in advance. You know, I'll I'll say, "Oh, have we done this?" And she's just said, "Yep, we've already done that, done this, done that." But they're very careful about keeping the libraries open until there's a switch because they want they're they're mindful of how important they are for the community. And um [clears throat] I mean you know the stories that we we get from the staff and people are just really heartwarming and how much the library means to the community. We're also um have broken ground in Aaso and that's exciting because it's going to be a multi-use so there's apartments. It's going to be incredible. Um and then we're also going to build a new one in Brook. So, we're that it's a big project and it's um it's exciting. It's exciting and it's just incredible to see. It feels like we just broke ground in Brookside and now it's open >> and they it's just been it's just such a joy. So, anyway, >> so wonderful. >> Anything else? >> Question. >> Thank you for your service. >> Yeah, I just love it. Thank you. [clears throat] Thank you so much. >> Yeah, my do my four-year-old just became a library card. Very exciting. Yeah, [laughter] >> I love it. That's so exciting. >> She's really into it, but we already have overdue books, so just telling myself. >> That's [laughter] okay. That's okay. Sometimes it takes a little longer. >> We're going to do that. >> I know. I know. >> Thank you so much for serving, continuing to serve. Um, if there's anything you think that the council should know, let us know. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Councelor Bengal. >> Yeah. How I'm I'm curious. Some of my friends here at the table are always talking about Google's free. So because information is so accessible to us on smartphones, everybody has a smartphone. How do we keep libraries relevant in our society? >> Um question deep question. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> No, I'm I'm serious. I I wouldn't think that we would be expanding them because people have such quick access to information. I don't know that we feel like everyone has a smartphone and a lot of people do, but a lot of people want some help. We've got computers at the um library. We have um free Wi-Fi at the library. We had during the pandemic, we had a woman say that we saved her life because her husband would check who was an abusive husband and he would check what her searches if she was at home. So, she would come sit in the parking lot at the library and um >> use your Wi-Fi. >> That's awesome. >> And then they also the downtown one has whole interactive play areas. Like my daughter made friends with like a kid who's there who goes there almost every day cuz she's homeschooled and that's one of their like activity centers. >> And I think it's also it's also a community. I mean people, yes, you can sit in a silo and look things up, but you want to discuss it with someone or you want some help. Everyone at the library is so helpful. And it says here, I mean, if it if you look how many people come to the library, it's incredible. And people strangely really do still like hard books or they get the book from they check out the book from the library and all of that. Um, none of that costs anything. They can do ebooks from the library but um it's >> 1.897 physical [clears throat] annual visits. >> It's shocking. >> It is shocking. >> That's why I asked a question. >> It is shocking how many people but I think that shows us that we still really do want >> we do need community and we need interaction. >> It is a third space everyone. Everyone always says we don't have enough but we have really good library ones and we have councelor Gilbert and then councelor director. But along with just reading, there's also labs, different labs in the libraries. So, I mean, you can do uh there's a 3D printer lab. There's a a lab where people can go and um make their own put together their own music. >> I mean, it's phenomenal. I mean, just the different things. I mean, libraries just aren't for reading anymore. It's it's a totally different experience. >> They've started businesses from the library. I think it it's just it's >> it's amazing to just go spend some time there. >> Google, you can't do your own band. [laughter] >> That's not true. >> Yeah, it is. >> AI but [laughter] after that >> um Yeah, I just wanted to amplify to the third spaces. I have teenagers, eighth and 10th grade, and it's one of the places they meet up with their friends to do board games, read manga and anime, and they feel safe. I feel safe dropping them there. Um, and my older teen has been one of the volunteers that's in here. So, it's a good kind of foray into like job skills and those kinds of things. And we probably should do a better job of amplifying the libraries in our districts. Um, I don't hold we hold city meetings there, but I I've kind of exclusively held my town halls at the schools, but I know when we have hardesty meetings, they're packed out. And I think Martin is always packed out. >> So, and I know Rutil is definitely a community center. So, we probably just need to all of us do a better job of just amplifying that the library is a place for you, even if you're not going to check out, you know, Withering Heights. >> Absolutely. >> For your [laughter] for your reading list. book events. You're reminding me of one time Ann Patchet was speaking at the local library. This is I know she's come through twice, but it was a few years ago and I made the mistake of asking her a question about David Foster Wallace and she really went off. It was the wrong [laughter] >> Anyway, that was esoteric, but it was not a good question and I didn't know it was hitting us and it was really entertaining. It >> was entertaining. >> Well, our HOAs also often book rooms at the the library. That's interesting. >> Instead of, you know, cuz we don't have like a park community center in our part of town. >> Council Archie. Yeah, for sure. Thank you for your service. A pleasure to to meet you for the first time. No, it's okay. >> But um yes, you're you're correct, counselor Decker, right? I need to have more meetings, you know, in that space. >> Uh we've had some, but um >> you can make t-shirts >> in in the library. There's a flight simulator there. >> Oh, wow. >> In the central library. Yes. Not every library, but in the central library. Yes. >> But one of the things I was struck by um on employment 79 Well, so okay. So, uh people use the computers. Yeah. Page for Well 14. >> Oh, 14. >> Yeah. Um 50% use the computer to apply for a job. >> 79% of those are interviewed. Uh and then 79% report that they were hired from that interview. And so, I mean, the work that y'all are doing is funneling people into employment. [clears throat] So, people's lives are getting >> better as Yeah. resources. So, thank you for your work, >> Councelor D. >> Yeah. So, I want to uh also comment that I know a lot of unsheltered individuals utilize the libraries for those purposes of applying for jobs. So, it's a a service that is rendered that is actually beneficial to the community as a whole and that our city better. >> Yeah. Or county. >> Well, they can access resources as well, you know, if they're not familiar with resources. Um, I'd also like to uh amplify that district 3 only has one library and that's Maxwell >> and they close at six. And so I would really love to speak with you about getting something um broader for the district because we don't have a community center either. >> That book mobile. Well, I I think something for kids to go to after school >> um and utilize the library. And I think that we are really lacking in district 3 in regards to any kind of resources. >> Out of curiosity, pigging off that, but I know we need to move on for times, but obviously we'd all want to hang out with you all clearly. Um is because Kendall Whittier that which is like I know a small library is that still the highest utilization one at one point. >> I can't tell you that with any certainty. I know. I know. It's very highly utilized and there's so much activity in that area just in the area. So [snorts] >> yeah, I do want to flag even if maybe even if there is just the one, not saying there shouldn't be more, but potentially some of the ones that are like the smallest or most niche end up being like the highest use ones. So, but for your point, maybe there's a way to get more people. >> Well, at 6 p.m. when they close, I mean, that's not enough time for kids to go to after school. And um it's difficult to book book a room there. U if I want to have town halls during the weekday, I can't. >> Okay. >> Um it's that's really a needed resource. >> I'll talk to you. >> Take that. >> You take that as a positive as well. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you for your time and thank you for your comments and questions. >> Yeah. If you want to spend more time with us, we'll be voting on this on the [laughter] 10th at 5:00 p.m. You are welcome to attend, but you don't have to. But if you ever want to hear the rest of the Anne Patchet story, it's wild. [laughter] >> Um, >> she's fascinating. She is. So, yes, she's incredible. >> No, I ended up with a David Foster Wallace biographer telling me the backstory and it was spicy. >> Um, [laughter] >> thank you so much. We >> We're on agenda item three, Rosland Williams reappointment to the board of adjustment. Um, term expires May 10th, 2028. Had great attendance from council district 1. I know that's a tough act to follow because we got to talk about libraries and now we're talking about >> Yes. I'm just >> exemptions. I know. >> No, you can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. [laughter] >> Um, but yeah, if you wouldn't mind telling us about yourself um and your experience serving and why you'd like to continue serving. Well, I'm a realtor, so I'm a people helper. And uh what the board of adjustment allows me to do, it gives me more knowledge and information about what's going on in the community in terms of housing, redistricting, and things like that. And it gives me more ammunition to give to my clients and to the community about what's accessible and what's available in terms of housing. And as we all know, housing is a huge initiative for our mayor. So it just broadens my horizons so that I can in turn broaden the horizons of the community and the people that I serve. >> Wonderful. >> Any followup? >> Oh, just grateful for your service to run on a marathon. The board of adjustments at 10. >> Yeah, it it's a process, but you know what? We like getting dirty, don't we? We [laughter] like getting our jerseys dirty. >> So, it's it's good. I I really enjoy it. I enjoy it. >> Well, thank you so much for serving. We definitely really appreciate it. Um, yeah, we are grateful for you. Um, we will also be voting on this on the 10th at the 5:00 meeting. You are welcome to attend, but you are not required to. >> Thank you so much. [laughter] >> Thank you. But thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. >> All right. We are on agenda item four, reszoning application for a major a major amendment to the PUD286B, adding low impact manufacturing and industry as an allowed use and adding other uses allowed in the IIL and OM zoning districts for property located west of the southwest corner of East 47th Place and South Mingo Road. Uh requested by John W. Moody, Property Owner, Advanced Ultrasound Electronic, Inc. Council District 7. TMAPC voted 100. and we have Nathan with us from the planning office. >> Good morning, counselors. Nathan Foster with the Tulsa Planning Office. So, this request is a a major amendment to a BUD. It's located on just the west side of Mingo, kind of north of 51st Street. The request is to allocate additional uses to the western side of the property. The original PUB was adopted in 1982 uh and then amended again in 1983. and it limited the west side of the property to one specific use category. Uh the building has sold and the new owners are hoping to bring some small manufacturers into the western side of the building and so they've asked to allocate essentially all the uses that were allowed on the east side of the building to also be allowed on the west side of the building. Um the most intense of those would be like a light industrial use. Um, some things about that, you can do small-cale manufacturing, but all of those operations do have to be contained indoors. There's a prohibition on any kind of off-site impact in light industrial. And so, um, the land use plan for this corridor does call it an employment area which supported the change to allow these types of uses within the existing building. Uh, the planning commission, I believe on November 19th, u voted unanimously to recommend approval of the major amendment. Uh, Council Gilbert, >> at the neighborhood that it backs up to, have you heard anything from them? >> There were no speakers at the public hearing. Um, the applicant did indicate that they sent out their own 300 foot letter and had a small meeting that was not super [clears throat] well attended, but there was a few people that came and asked questions and that they didn't get any mass objection from anyone based on what they were proposing to do. And then we didn't hear anything as it went through the actual public hearing. So >> have you uh councelor Dr. Wright have you heard anything else? >> Yeah. >> So um as I was reading the backup it talks about tree canopy coverage. Uh tree canopy in this area is at 9%. This is maybe not a question, but just reflecting on what councelor director Wright says oftentimes her district uh is this right that your district has probably the least >> amount of tree coverage and so >> thanks for listening to me. >> I [laughter] try to listen to all all of you are so so wise. But uh but it's just um >> changed potato >> every thought that Anthony has. >> I learned I learned something. >> It's okay. Yes. No, you're correct. We have least amount of tree. >> Keep going. >> No, I just think um uh what um you know, how do we account for this? You know, we want development, but also got to think about [clears throat] >> that corridor is largely industrial, you know, like very um warehousy manufacturing. I see there's like an RS3 tuck there. Like it's probably really from a long time ago. So, I have not now since it's on for today, maybe I will, but [clears throat] I have not gotten any from those four properties that are going to border. Um, >> so one piece of of good news and related to your question on the tree canopy is when someone comes in and does a major amendment to a PUD like this, one of the goals we have is to carry all of the standards into our modern code requirements. So the PUD that was adopted in 1982, for example, >> generally had very light landscaping standards, if any at all. So when we write the major amendment and rewrite the development standards for this site, we carry in all of the landscaping standards that would apply today, it won't come up if they continue using the existing building. But if in the future someone were to redevelop this site, they will be required to plant trees, add additional landscaping screening standards that would apply to any new development under today's code. So, a a benefit I would say of a major amendment like this is that we are able to modernize the rules on the site to make sure the future development looks better and and will contribute back to the tree canopy. >> That's a beautiful full full circle moment. Um, all right. Anything else on this one? >> Okay, >> I'll by saying thank you for listening. [laughter] >> You must feel really hurt. >> I feel hurt. Thank you. >> Agenda item six, reszoning application Z7840 from AG to RD and RS5 for property located at the northwest corner of East 31st Street South and South 193rd East Avenue. Requested by Markford Wallace Design, property owner GW Land Holding Council District 6. TMC voted 10 to recommend approval. >> You're on number five. >> Well, >> yeah, we did for now. Can we go back? No, I'm kidding. [laughter] >> I've read now. I've read six, but we're going back to five. >> She was done listening to me. >> I was Yeah. Wait, did I Oh, sorry. I skipped it because it said it was from the same property owner. >> Yeah, in the same district. >> Oh my gosh. Was it different things? >> It's literally the same block. >> Okay. Reszoning application Z7839 from OM to CH property located west of the northwest corner of East 48th Place in South Mango Road. Same person, District 7, 10, TABC. Yeah. >> Yes. So, this is the property that is immediately south of the property that we just talked about. Um, it's currently zoned for medium office and contains a surface parking lot that serves the use to the north. Um, the same property owner that has the building to the north has acquired this property as well. And they have a proposal to essentially expand upon the same types of uses that they talked about on that northern piece, but limited more to um kind of interior office warehouse uses for for small commercial companies, commercial services. So, this one they did not need any of the light industrial and they've asked for just a commercial zoning district to support that change. Um, same similar situation with this one. The the applicant did indicate they had their own set of neighborhood meetings and really talked about both of these projects together uh with the neighbors they engaged with. Uh, nobody spoke at the public hearing with the planning commission and the planning commission unanimously recommended approval. >> All right. Anything else on this one? Okay. the one I was so excited to get to. Apparently six. [snorts] >> All right, so item >> number six. This is a reszoning at the northwest corner of East 31st Street and south 193rd East Avenue. Um, this is a piece of property that is just southeast of the Lin Lane Reservoir. Uh, the proposal is to take the property from its current AG resoning here. Let me get to the map for you guys. [clears throat] from AG um to a RS5 and RD which is a residential duplex designation. That hash line reflects the zoning line that they are proposing. So the western most portion of the property is proposed to be that duplex zoning. Everything else is proposed to be RS5. Um they did provide at the same time a layout with a preliminary plat as to what the proposed subdivision would look like at this location. It is set to be a fivephase development. Um starting at the the hard corner of 31st and 193rd and then working their way west all the way. Uh the request [clears throat] for RS5 was based upon the proposed lot sizes that they are asking for. They did not go to the full minimum of an RS5 district, but it it allowed them to account for what is a significant flood plane area in the southeast corner of the property. So they were able to gain additional lots on the remainder uh while reserving that flood plane area for just detention and open space. The planning [clears throat] commission on this one as well voted unanimously to recommend approval of the request. >> Master Chance tells you love RS5. [laughter] >> No. And I I did meet with this developer. I met with the designer uh and the engineer and I told them the only way I could support this as an RS5 was if it was a totally private development. You guys have heard me say this over and over. There is a high impact on 193rd East Avenue. It's become a superhighway. I've had conversations with Commissioner Ce about it for the last three years about it. Uh it's a commuter road basically between Katusa and Broken Arrow. U and I believe it's used specifically because of the traffic um uh the traffic management of stop signs versus stop lights. Um as I told the individual um when we're talking about economic development, housing isn't just part of that equation in that conversation. uh these folks are not going to be spending their money in Tulsa. It's our job to uh try and mitigate uh revenue losses since we're dependent on sales tax. And I said if you want this, it's got to be fully private streets, all of it. You keep it all. for me to support it as a development on its own, as a housing development, the additional impact to the infrastructure and the loss of revenues, it had to be an RS3 for me to openly support it. >> As a followup, how many units is this, Nathan? >> Um, >> just so that we have full context. >> Sorry to put you on put you on the spot to do some math. >> No, that's okay. I should have had that number with me. Let me check in here and see. Um, well, you're looking councelor director, did you want to add in? >> Yeah. Can we just go back to the superighway? Is it a county road or a city road? >> It's a county road. >> 193rd. >> Y. >> And is there any improvements or widening or anything planned? >> Well, I keep Well, first it was going to be uh some roundabouts on a three mile uh three miles stretch. >> And then it turned into that maybe stop lights. >> So, they're basically taking it to get to the BA. >> Correct. >> Okay. or they're taking it to get to 412, >> right? >> And it's just a two-lane country y road. >> And that's why >> and there's already major neighborhoods turning in and off, >> right, >> at 37th. >> That's why I said if we had already had the the widening on 193rd to support that development. >> Great. >> Well, you're not going to get it though because it's all a and it's not platted. >> Thank you. >> That's what happens when you've been on council for lower terms. So that's why I said if if they wanted it if they wanted it, I could support it 100% if it was all private. >> But if you wanted uh because of the issues that I see along that corridor, >> um the problem for me was is that they were creating more of an impact >> and more of a problem. >> Can we see the the whole corridor like >> on the east side? What is the zoning? Oh, the zoning >> to the east because there's already dense there's already like culde-sac neighborhoods. >> So everything south of 31st street is already RS5 um east of 193rd >> and then the southeast is RS3 with a P. >> Yeah, I think it would help if like even if you have a ballpark for the number of units, we can always find out more later. >> I think it was just over 300. >> Just over 300ish. >> Okay. And then >> what what was was some of this discussed? what councelor Bengal is referring to. Was some of this discussed during TMAPC? What did that look like? >> No, the the commission did not ask them about the idea of doing private streets and they didn't oppose that. Um, >> but what about like the impact part like >> No, I I think I mean basically this was another one where there was no interested parties. Nobody came to speak. Um, the commission had very few questions about the proposal and I think that the applicant really didn't have to say much at the planning commission just because there weren't a lot of questions posed to them about this. I know that the the city has been working the traffic engineers have been working on new standards for when traffic impact analysis have to be submitted with new subdivision development. Um, and something like this would likely fall within that provision as something that would need to be looked at before a plat could be approved for the number of lots that they're proposing. At a staff level, um, when speaking to applicants, we wouldn't have talked to them about the possibility of private streets only because our subdivision regulations stipulates that we prohibit gated subdivisions or private street subdivisions over 20 acres. And this is a 75 acre tract. Um, not to say there's not relief that can be granted that would allow a larger private street subdivision, but the intent of those provisions is really to ensure we don't box out an entire area from being able to connect to future subdivision development or future public streets nearby. Um, and when you do limit them to a private street, you kind of eliminate that possibility for connectivity around future development. >> That makes sense. Council Dr. Right. So, I'm just looking at like the Google map, right? Is there an area [clears throat] plan or some sort of strategy for this area instead of just patchworking through our a like maybe we get an area plan so there's a better >> there's not any type of of small area plan for this area. So, it's it's purely just our land use plan that's relied upon. >> Yeah. I mean, this is directly south of Hard Rock. We had another thing come up a couple years ago right in this corridor. It's obviously very desirable for development and housing. Um I feel your pain. I'm to this day still dealing with a country road between 81st and 91st on South Mingo >> where the west side is still agg and the other side has three hospitals and an apartment complex and we're still not wide. So, I I definitely um think we should learn not to repeat those kinds of things, but how do we continue? I'm just really looking at this counselor. Everything around is already RS5 >> to to the south >> that's built, right? No. What about to the east? >> So, southeast is RS3. That's in I think that's >> like at Llay at 31st. >> No, to the to the east. >> Well, that that is >> like east across 193rd. >> Well, it's a little tiny counselor and then it's neighborhood. >> Yeah. So that's what I'm looking at is like >> so it's already kind of what the area is turning into. >> I mean if we were to zoom out like I am on Google [clears throat] maps that whole area is already these >> single family but closer together lots culac for >> three miles. >> You said this is phased >> building so it would be x number of more cars over time. I guess my curiosity, councelor Bengal, when you're talking about because I know there's the road and the traffic, are you talking about other infrastructure too that you're concerned about or is it mostly the road which I hear you that >> Yeah, I just the problem is is that even if you shift or you change uh traffic management from stop sign to stop light, you could potentially wind up with the same problem on Lin Lane >> because that's stop signs um >> super >> all the way to Broken Arrow And then that could even shift to 161st which is the same thing. So you can potentially move your problem as you create those impacts. And so >> which we see like on Memorial Sheridan Exactly. >> over the last 30 years. >> And so that's why I said I'm not opposed to housing development >> that people speed >> but I'm not I don't support hyperdevelopment when the infrastructure doesn't support >> but if the issue but wait is the issue you're saying speeding or traffic? >> It's both. Both. You have a two-lane country road that people are using for >> commuters. You could do like speed of Baitman and >> No, they need to widen it. [laughter] >> I'm just I know you don't like widening. >> It's that simple >> because it's sprawled. But we're sprawled. >> We're sprawled. It's I know that >> it's directly It's directly south of the Hard Rock Casino just to like level where this is. >> Um >> what did Commissioner C say? >> Yeah, that's the plan. >> Like [clears throat] is the county going to >> I can't tell you. [laughter] I honestly can't and there's no >> we should have a conversation because your area is growing. This part of town is growing the fastest in the last 10 years. We need housing. I bristle a little bit at the privatization because and I'm just speaking District 7 has a couple of these communities where the city was like no you do it and here we are 40 years later they're all rentals or they're all third generation passroughs and they're not >> maintained. Well, >> well, we just come like a public safety, it's not an option, >> and I don't disagree with that, but that's the problem is I'm trying to discourage this sort of overexpansion too quickly. And that's why I said there's not places to to retain sales [clears throat] to retain sales tax. So, these folks generally get the rooftops, you'll get the retail. >> Look at look at Battle Creek. >> Yeah. I've supported expansion after expansion of Battle Creek and we still have not seen any retail. >> None. >> So, I'm challenged >> Yeah. >> by this idea that we're overfocused on housing and we're neglecting ourselves in other facets and components of economic development. This is just ridiculous in my opinion >> to expand this quickly and just be supportive of it because we're in a housing crisis. Aside from >> but we have a responsibility to also mitigate and minimize the liabilities on our taxpayers. >> Aside from private which was your offer. What about like RS3? >> That's what I said. >> RS private only or public? >> No, I was open to the public. >> So public streets and RS3. >> Right. So I I mean I I haven't talked to the applicant so I don't know you know what their take is on any kind of down zone 2 to RS3. >> What I would say though is even at an RS3 density >> you're you are taking on a similar amount of infrastructure you're just getting less users. So you're >> the the cost of that infrastructure is not changing as an RS3 density. It's like if we're going to let it develop as a single family subdivision, it might be better to have more users on that infrastructure if if the cost is is what we're worried about >> cost for >> just I mean and the other part about it is you know when you privatize like when you say we're going to do it as a private subdivision >> the streets become private but the other infrastructure is still >> I think what we're thinking about those 350 to 700 cars >> but I guess that that traffic impact Fact, if we say RS5 and it's private streets, you're still it's the same amount of lots onto the main. >> And I would disagree with that. The problem is is that >> you have streets all through Tulsa, uh even in my own subdivision that were built in 1976 have never been resurfaced. Not one single time. >> You're right. These people will get in line at the same point as everybody else asking for resurfacing dollars if the streets >> go PCI. But my concern to what you just said >> I understand but I'm talking about shift >> 40 PCI they're not even on the list which is the other conversation we have to have sooner than later. Well, and I guess to me it sounds like right these are part of I'm just hearing broader like right just kind of trending issues >> an area plan. >> Yeah. >> Is that not an option to do an area? What is this area called like broadly [clears throat] >> just aside from east to >> what is it called the conditions? >> I mean clearly this is a space and place people want to be in over the next 20 years. So there probably at this point does need to be more than just a land use designation and actually like a strategy that's probably going to have to involve the county coming to the table. >> So I will just say though I have a reservation disagreeing with councelor Bengal which I've never done in my life but um [laughter] that was a good eye roll but it was a kind one everyone. Um, I was going to say like I just have a reservation though like because that's part of a broader trend or issue holding off on a project that adds more housing to an area for your point that actually has a lot of that density already when I like in the grand scheme of things. This to me doesn't add in that many. You know, we know that how many cars that like average household of Tulsas, we're really talking one car. You know, they don't all it's not like they all exit the neighborhood at the same time to go somewhere. to me like I don't know that this is a thing that makes or breaks what's already happening on that road. I guess that's how I'm thinking about it. I'm like to me I'm thinking how we know we need more housing. This is a broader issue that we need to solve but I don't know if we solve it by how we address this specific reason is just kind of my thought process. Um >> yeah but then the next one the next one. So then you get a pass. My main thing is if you look at the parallel south of 51st Street in this part of town a little to the west, >> you see where these neighborhoods cropped up 50, 40 years ago without these plans. And so I do hear our colleague kind of saying like maybe we should learn from that. >> Fair, >> right? My district borders on Bixby and Broken Arrow and we probably do lose sales to them although our sales tax is lower right now so maybe we don't. um [laughter] which different debate >> but we do because there is no >> there's nothing there's nothing >> so even with pre-existing subdivisions >> they're already going >> we're standing up Katusa's retail corridor >> in East Tulsa >> they're going to >> so if you're not going to if you're not going to help me >> in other aspects of economic development why should I support this >> it's nonsense >> and it's just continuing to exact passer made a problem. >> Just put pork chops in so they have to [laughter] >> It sounds like the county has to or we built the wall around. [clears throat and laughter] >> Councelor Den. >> Yeah. So I agree with 193rd and I think the county needs to step up even if a development is not established there. I still think the county needs to step up >> and improve that street period because it is a high flow traffic area and it I think it's dangerous the way that the flow of traffic is ongoing and if you add a subdivision this large I know it's definitely going to add and it will also trickle to 161st and um that would encroach on my district And then [clears throat] I'll have these wants and needs for my district for 161st because we're already having issues with 145th. And so I understand is Battle Creek RS3. >> No. So the reason why I support what Battle Creek is doing is because they've maintained a standard of developments because they started out with a complex uh an apartment complex. I think what is it? 31st. >> No, I'm trying to think. >> I'm trying to think exactly where it's at. But they have a golf course that's a free amenity. They've actually made uh infrastructure investments that have necessitated them being able to have those RS5 developments. They're really well built. Um and so everything that they've done, um has elevated that portion of the district. Um, and I think that even goes into your district as well, councelor dctor, right? >> So that's kind of the standard that people want to see and not this. I totally support the core of East Tulsa, which is the old subdivisions. Those folks aren't seeing, you know, the resurfacing of their roads and stuff like that. So I want to support development, but I want to also be smart about it. What's the value comparison for this new development as far as far as affordability? >> I don't remember what they said the price point was on those >> 300 something homes. >> 350 or something. >> Yeah, 320 I think is what I heard. But I just wondered what the affordability level is compared to Battle Creek and if we're looking at that as >> Battle Creek I think would be comparable. So I have a question going back to 193rd. There's clearly improvements right around the casino >> and who paid for those. Was that county or was that >> the nation? >> I think partnership on that. >> Yeah. So you see those improvements and you can see where it would exacerbate almost you have the two-lane improvements there and then people hit the country road and they still want it >> to be >> I think O do it's either O do I think feds are making improvements right there at that corridor. >> So it's three lanes in each direction right there and then it narrows down to one which is probably exacerbating >> that issue. So, [clears throat] oh, can I ask? >> Yes, of course. >> When you had your conversation, I I mean, I know the county roads are funded by the SERB fund. >> So, where's their serve plan? I just tried to find it. Have you seen their >> We need to get a hold of that. >> Okay. >> Stephen and I have conversations. So what so with this one just checking with my council colleagues including for time there's a obviously a lot of implications or layers here. Is this something people want to put back on? Is this something you want to talk with the applicant more first? Do we leave it on for >> No, I've been very clear. >> Okay. That you're >> I support this 100% if it's totally private, but I will support it openly uh as an RS3. >> You mean public street? I'm just checking >> combination of the two. >> Yeah. >> What >> densities? >> But I'm also I'm just doing a pulse check with the full group. What do we want to do with this item? >> But just >> we're trying to figure it out. Yeah, I know. I know. >> If I may, but you would. But if they want to do RS5 private in a couple of these phases and RS3 >> public in a couple of phases, that would be fine, too, >> because there's I would have to see what it looks like. >> The big issue is the number of cars going in and out onto this unimproved road. Mhm. >> Just the maintenance of maintenance of >> well we can't afford I mean we can't control where people shop >> five years from now everyone might just only shop from their house. We don't know that. So >> so you know >> here's my question. Do we want to take this off from >> I'm just thinking >> well or do you >> I'd be curious. Do you want to put a pin in this so that the developer can interact more with you and the planning office? Because it just seems like we unless we don't if we don't know what they're willing to do or not, then >> could you schedule a meeting with the developer and the commissioner to have a conversation? >> Yeah. >> I mean, here's the other thing. The commissioner should be concerned about housing. >> They should be concerned about all of Tulsa County. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, and our housing needs is 85% of their residents live in our city and I'll be honest housing. I'm a little shocked. >> Lots of money that other folks neighborhoods didn't come out to the team APC >> for this one. Yes. >> I mean, I think the radius is probably >> Yeah. You're just notice the lake and the egg across the street. But you do have some folks that are hyper sensitive. >> Oh yeah. I mean, there were signs posted on the property. So if somebody would have seen >> So I'm really shocked that you didn't have more. Can you have a community meeting and maybe have the commissioner come and like have a conversation about the corridor? >> In my opinion, we need more discussion. >> Yeah. So, it sounds like we're not going to leave this on for >> Yeah. The the developer kind of left me in a holding pattern. >> Yeah. There's no point having >> Are you good if we just don't even do first reading? We'll just move it to sometime. >> Sarah, can we do just a certain committee date come back? So, like December 17th, >> how much time do you need? because it is >> it is a lot of coordination. >> Yeah. >> Do we want to put it on for this? Well, I don't I guess we don't know their timelines either. I don't want to. So, 17. >> I wouldn't even bring it on until next year. [clears throat] >> January 4th because after December 17 >> works for me. >> January 14th. >> January 14th. Okay. So just as a cl for if the decision is made that >> that private streets are desired, >> I think you all as a council have the ability to add what would be required which is a development plan that provides express approval for the use of private streets. Um, so if that conversation happens with the developer and and there's an agreement made that we want to just add an ODP, if you let us know, we can help get that language together before it comes back for >> I think we do need to really hear what Nathan shared though, like infrastructure costs on the city side are still there whether you have >> five houses or 350. So, you know, >> council, >> this is where impact fees would be helpful. >> Oh, there's five phases. They could have five different private neighborhoods, couldn't they? >> Yeah. >> Theoretically, they could break it up, >> go around the 20 acre. >> Oh, for your point. >> Yeah. Or they could do a, you know, we've had examples where someone pockets out a private section and develops publicly around it. >> There's a lot of options. Yeah. You just have to start thinking about all of them. >> I think we also whatever we do >> and pork chops, >> we need to keep track of it because I I don't think we should have a a >> inequitable approach to this corridor. like if you're going to require that of this one then the next one that comes through there has to be an ongoing conversation that's why I think an area plan or I don't know what the technical term is but clearly this is a desirable corridor that's got focus on it so everyone should get around the table >> massively desirable corridor [clears throat] between a casino and the >> economic development partners get around the table with housing partners and >> intergovernmental and really say like what are we doing here with all this a land >> okay >> concept conceptually. >> Well, and you know, this also borders fairs and there's that huge master development plan for that. >> That's going to spur more of these requests >> and then we could let's get impact fees on the agenda this time frame, too. Okay, we have a plan. >> Okay, >> sounds good. >> What was the date you said? >> All right, >> 14th. >> Okay, I think we're done with all the planning things. Thank you, Nathan. >> Of course. Okay. Agenda item seven, resolution authorizing payment of $35,000 to Metals Treatment Technologies LLC plaintiff and Metcaf and Spitler attorneys at law from the seeking fund as a payment of a judgment and attorney fee awarded in case number CJ 2024 4335. Um this item has the emergency clause and has councelor Lincoln told us how much is in he thinks is in the scing fund? >> $1 billion. >> Okay, definitely not. Go ahead. Good morning, councilors. Chad Becker from Treasury here to provide assurance that there is a sufficient cash balance in the singing fund. Not 1 billion, but sufficient uh to pay this judgment ahead of the levy placement on the property tax roles. Uh the judgment's been approved by the mayor and the court and with council's approval, finance will issue payment in full to the claimant um and then file all the necessary paperwork with the county to levy repayments um over a three-year period and um as of this morning seeing fund balance is 54.7 million. >> City legal is here to discuss the case. Morning counselors. Conrad Tacmail with City Legal and this case was related to a contract dispute uh between the city involving the Tulsa Police Department uh firing range uh where uh Meadows Technology came in and provided lead remediation to remove the lead in the burn where they practice. Um it had become a safety issue um in that industry. Typically what the contracts uh the language in the contract says that uh a lot of these companies will come in do the lead remediation. They'll keep the lead in exchange for payment and then just recycle the lead. And uh the Tulsa Police Department had a company come in and that was the agreement they had. Unfortunately that company had issues with equipment so they had to find a second company and uh they had the same discussions with them. But when the contract was sent uh to the lieutenant in charge of the uh firing range uh he assumed that it had the language in that they had discussed and they had put some fine print different language that said that they controlled all the lead retained 100% ownership and then they would also invoice us. So, um, in this case, they came out, they performed the work, uh, but then they sent the city an invoice for, uh, $56,000, which we refused to pay because it didn't go through the pro proper bidding process and re and it was not reviewed or signed by the mayor. Um, so, uh, they filed the lawsuit and eventually we came to the agreement that, uh, they could keep the lead and that we would pay them the difference for the invoice. Um but there were mistakes on both sides both with the company and uh with the lieutenant. But >> all right, counselor. >> Um so do we have a better system set up now to where any contracts that go before any department um are reviewed through legal and that they don't sign themselves. that goes through the >> what we discussed in this case, I think the confusion uh from the lieutenant standpoint was he mistakenly believed that if if no money was supposed to exchange hands, it didn't have to go through a bid process or through the formal contracting process. And we just informed them that that is not the case, right? Any contract has to go through the through the uh proper uh review channels and review process. So they are aware of that now. Um, and you know, in this case, uh, I think, um, the mayor made an exception. Uh, you know, typically, uh, if if it doesn't go through the proper channels, uh, there's no appropriation for it, so we wouldn't pay it. But, um, since they had some issues on their end, that the initial salesperson that lieutenant spoke with, he left the company, it was handed down to somebody else. So there was miscommunication on their part as well but >> just but we have a better system now. I mean to where >> hopefully >> with the with the post Tulsa Police Department we do. Now I I can't speak for other departments. I assume that you know everyone's aware that all contracts have to go through a bid process and and be reviewed. >> Councelor Bengal have legal review of contracts before they're signed. >> We review contracts a year. >> That's all. [laughter] Sounds like you guys are underworked. >> Sounds like you need some more. >> The normal process is everything comes through legally gets on the mayor's agenda for for signing. This was a really unusual case. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Wait, sorry, could you say again when was this contract executed? >> So, this happened back in this the contract was signed on May 28th of 2024 and uh they came in and and uh did the lead remediation and kept the lead. And when we got the the invoice, there was no there was no credit associated with it. And they had discussed that the credit for the lead would offset the services. >> But again, they had the different language in the contract that the lieutenant did not uh catch and it was just in fine print where they keep 100% of the lead. >> Always read the fine print. >> Always read the fine print. Right. Just a one time. It's just a >> It's a one time. So obviously we're not they're not doing business with them. >> I'm really interested in how they got the lead out of the dirt, >> but we can talk about that. [laughter] >> It's quite a process from what I understand. >> Or getting the lead out. >> And I will tell you in this case that the mayor made a one-time exception if they were willing to be reasonable, meaning um the invoice for 56,000 was their break even point. So we told them that we're not pay you know if you made a mistake we made a mistake but we will pay the difference just to cover your cost but which is what we did in this case >> but ultimately we could have said he didn't have the authority to sign it didn't go through the proper channels so the whole thing >> that was our original position >> the judge strongly encouraged us to go to uh a settlement conference so that's that's why we ended asking the mayor for uh an exception. >> And you think this is a fair deal? >> Yes. >> As fair as we can get. >> As fair as we can get. Yes. >> Yeah. They making they did not make a profit on this. We just basically paid their costs and we through the discovery process we had gotten all their costs and and and that they incurred and so we confirmed that. >> Okay. Thank you, Counc. >> This is probably a question for Jack. So, a mayor kind of making exceptions on a contract that's already been executed, is that like Well, in the context typical >> lawsuit settlement, you know, they raised kind of equitable claims of unjust enrichment. And so in the context of settling that lawsuit, >> that's where the accepted was made is in the settlement discussion. >> Okay. I thought you meant like when the discovery was made that the contract was >> Okay. Thank you, Counc. >> Yeah. It's just a question of what do we do with 38,000 pounds of lead? Yeah, they keep it and recycle it. The company does. >> Yes. >> They recycled it and received just over $26,000 >> for those for that recycled. >> That's a lot of lead. >> Think about the lead that's not been removed. >> I know. >> Let's try not to think about it. It's a lot of anything else on this one. All right. [clears throat] Thank you. We are on agenda item eight. Resolution authorizing payment of $145,000 to Jerry Ponder, plaintiff, and Nicholas A. Rankin, attorney at law, from the scing fund is a payment of a judgment and attorney fee awarded in case number CJ 2025 03487 emergency clause. >> Hi. >> Hi, Nick Williams with City Legal. You want to >> My part's I don't mean to jump. >> No, no, no. My part would be the same. So, you can go ahead. >> Uh, this case arises from Mr. Ponder's injuries that he sustained when a TPD K9 bid him. uh TPD officers with the K9 were responding to about 71st and Sheridan in a shooting um situation. We had a K9 there trying to track a suspect down. During the course of the uh investigation, the K9 went onto the front porch of Mr. Ponder. Unfortunately, Mr. Ponder walked out at that exact same time and the K9 bit him both in the leg and arm. Um Mr. Ponder alleged medical bills, ongoing pain and suffering, and um emotional pain and suffering as well. And I'm happy to entertain any questions there may be >> what happened to the dog. >> I believe the dog is still uh employed by >> that was it was >> he still works. >> Might not be a flaw. It might be a feature and how they were trained. >> Okay. >> I just wanted to Well, I know what happens to other dogs that bite people. So I just wanted to check our dog. >> I know. That's why I was checking >> TBD dog. >> I know. >> So was the dog on a leash at the time? >> A 15oot leash. Yes. >> That's a lot. This is TPD's dog, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I just wanted to make sure he was okay, too. Like, >> you know, >> I was just wondering. >> Okay. And then glad that the >> the shooting happened at that house >> in that neighborhood. So, officers were responding to that neighborhood >> and trying to find the suspect. Used a canine in the process of that and hence why the dog was involved. >> And that explains the leash. Okay. >> Well, that explains why a officer can go onto that pro. I guess it was just a random property. >> Yeah, >> they had had maybe suspicion. >> The K9 was, I believe, on scent trying to track the suspect down and meandered up to the patio of Mr. Ponder. And again, >> kind of a perfect storm of unfortunate circumstances with Mr. Ponder walking out at that exact same time. >> All right. Anything else on this one? Well, >> bug lights are scary. So, >> find one of our dogs. >> Um, okay. >> Is this in your part of 71st and chair then or my part? [clears throat] >> Well, I think does anyone have any other questions on >> Sounds like a scary hopeful oneoff? Um, all right. We are on agenda item nine. Thank you so much. Ordinance amending title 37 to survive ordinances. Adding a new section related to holding a handheld communication device in a school or construction zone prohibiting texting or holding a handheld cellular telephone while operating a motor vehicle in a mark school zone or construction zone. Um and this is brought to us by councelor dctorite with the emergency clause. >> Yes. So you all may have seen that house bill 2263 became law on November 1st. that was authored by um Representative Nicole Miller from admin. It basically is a law that strengthens Oklahoma's existing distracted um driving provisions where extra attention by the drivers behind the wheel would be critical and that would be in construction zones and school zones. Um drivers may still use handree features on uh these devices to stay connected safely. They just literally can't have it in their hands. And so in order for us to be able to have the police department enforce this in city limits, we need to codify it in ordinance. So I brought it to Jack and that's why it's before us today. The state law uh went into effect on November 1. So this is just to get us on the same page and um as we have had really intensive discussions in the last year about increasing public safety, especially where drivers and pedestrians and active transportation come into contact. I just thought this was a no-brainer for us to do it. Um, I did check the votes on this. Um, nearly every representative and senator rep that overlap our districts voted [clears throat] in favor of this. There are a few who didn't and you may want to visit with those if they overlap your council district. I have a senator who I will ask why they voted no. Um, so but for the most part it seems like the the legislative body that represents Tulsa was in favor and I just think this is just one more tool for us um as we continue to have these conversations about how we get drivers to be safer around people who aren't driving >> on our streets. Yeah. So, I think the emergency clause just means if we, you know, when it gets passed, there's not the 30-day provision um and it would go into effect um as soon as the mayor would sign it on the hopefully, you know, we pass it on the 10th and then whenever the next signing agenda is, then it's in effect and Chief Larson Edall can let our good officers know they have to be looking for this [laughter] >> in a construction or school zone. Yeah. >> Does that two follow questions just one clarifying one of and that includes this be clarifying for the public too. >> I ask I see a media interest here >> that includes like if someone's at a stop sign or traffic light like if you were you're operating your vehicle still even if you are physically like stopped at a light you know >> so this applies in um school zones right school zones someone's at a traffic light in a school zone. Yes. >> Okay. That's why that's why I'm the car is still running. >> You're operating the vehicle and >> still counts as operating it even if you are at it completely. >> But if you have like CarPlay or whatever your hands-free option is, you can still use that. >> Okay. >> Um and then also obviously construction zones >> and then just because this conversation keeps coming up as my second question and then councelor Le um the fine amount did like was that >> is $100. >> $100. Did you like I don't know if like I know we've always talked about if that's in line with other similar >> help draft this >> and that's provided for in the statute and that's a cap in the statute. >> There's also a list of exceptions pretty much if you're on the phone with 911 that would be the exception. >> Okay. So if you're trying to get a first response. Okay, that makes sense. Councelor Lincoln. >> So just while school zones are active, correct? >> So it's not just driving through a school zone. >> Yeah, I mean the school zone >> Sunday >> or the summer or whatever >> in a construction zone as well. >> Yeah. Some states don't let me on. That's that was going to be my followup question on a for construction zones. So, let's say you're driving through at 900 p.m. at night. That's still a construction zone with probably cones and everything else, but it's not probably active with construction workers. What's the rule there? >> Either of those zones while motor vehicle is in motion. >> So, >> it's just for those places where you need to be more like I have a major construction zone. >> Whether this active or not is what he's saying. Well, so so a school zone though is not active Sunday morning at 9:00 a.m. when the lights are not active. >> Correct. >> So I can drive through the school zone >> 50 miles an hour >> texting away. [laughter] >> Yeah. Um talking away. >> Okay. looking at your map on your on your phone in your hand or whatever. >> Language is um as it relates to school zones during certain times due to the presence or potential presence of school children. >> Yeah, it says something about active though too. >> One is properly posted. So the school zones will post when they're in effect. >> Yeah. Okay. So school zones is one thing. Construction zone though, it seems like it's it's at any point in that construction zone until the >> if it's signs are taken out. If the signs are up, it's an act of construction zone. >> Even if there's no workers on it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I think that's clarifying. >> Don't we have something in place already for mobile? >> Yeah, we already have the distracted driving >> law. This is hand holding it in your hand. So, here's the thing. You can have this with your navigator on it driving your kids to school. >> Now, you can't anymore. >> Right. And this needs to be on the cradle, >> right? Maybe it's in your CarPlay now showing you your map, but you just can't have it in your hand. Texting and driving is illegal, >> right? That's >> But some people drive and talk on their phone like this. >> Yeah. >> So, if you're in a school zone or construction zone, you're going to have to I don't know. >> It's just distracting, [laughter] >> you know. >> You know, like it can't be in your hand. >> Isn't it just as distracting though even to have it in a placeholder? >> No. Well, actually, I mean, there have been >> I mean, I'm not trying to be great point. There actually have been studies that have come out about how because cars have like the screens instead of buttons, the fact that you actually have to look to touch and you can't just feel is an issue. But that's just like a car design flaw at this point that this like we, you know, >> the way the state law is that we're mirroring, you can be on a CarPlay moment, >> you can do a voice activated moment to your handheld device. You just can't have it in your hand. So, it can sit in the cradle. you can be tucked in your shoulder for the two miles that you're driving through that zone and then you can put it right back in your hand. I suppose it's not a great idea, but >> yeah. Okay. I was just wondering how that related to texting because I I know just recently >> uh on our Taloqua trip, we went through construction zones and there were so many people on their cell phones even on the highway. >> Yeah. >> And it's really really scary when you're illegal. >> Yeah. But it's it I mean getting it regulated and people actually getting cited is the difficulty I think >> and all of that. So >> there's a reason why Siri lives in your phone. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I mean I >> I need an OnStar and >> but the texting and driving I see it all the time even on 244 on my way in. It's just so distracting. >> Yeah. >> Okay. No, I think that's great. Thank you. I'm sure if CPD thinks we need to strengthen it or adjust it, they'll let us know once they start enforcing counc. >> So this just like in item 2 a2 it says holding or using a handheld cellular telephone that the or using part >> that sounds different than what you were describing. >> That sounds different than the CarPlay and everything else. Well, I think it's the handheld >> you're holding it. But this is But this is a handheld cellular and I am using >> What are we saying when it's >> it's communicating what you're saying? >> It is where >> but state statute language. This isn't anything that we can. So >> just take the using out. Just put holding a handheld cellular telephone. Does that fix that for you? >> No, it's just a handheld. It should be holding or using a cellular device. >> No, the or using Even if you're holding it would include when you're driving it >> just holding it. >> Yeah. >> The way that is. >> I mean, you have to think about the enforcement element. An officer is going to have to see I'm driving >> with they're going to have to see it. So, it could be completely turned off. But I think I would be probably >> the word using is problematic because then it >> then it nullifies what we're saying about car play potentially. >> I hear I hear what you're saying. But how this is in the state law. Is that the issue >> cuz I >> This is exactly the language from the statute. >> Okay. Which I I agree. I would change that if I was doing the >> So, but the next section does get more into the like >> clarifies >> voice activated element of >> So, is there something that would further define what can be done? >> It says shall not apply in conjunction with hands-free or voice operated technology. >> Okay. So, so it's already been approved. >> Okay. >> I mean, I don't know how you prove to a police officer when you get pulled over. I was just holding it. It was actually I was talking to my CarPlay. I mean, >> yeah, that means >> it has the option for them to confiscate the phone and find out. So, no, it does not. >> Oh, I thought that's what >> Yeah. >> Well, shall not without the consent. So, they they can ask, but they can't just take it, right? >> So, obviously, you could just be like, "It's completely turned off. I'm just driving and talking to CarPlay." And then they would be like, "Well, show us your one on the," you know. >> All right. >> All right. >> All right. Anything else? >> Sure. If we see a plethora of folks showing up in municipal court or something over there, we will revisit with a TTRO discussion. >> I think Thanks, Jack, for getting it ready. Um, you know, the media really had reported around Halloween, a pre-H Halloween that this new state law had hit and then it was like, is it happening here? Is it not happening here? So, it's happening. Well, it's obvious these are two places you shouldn't be driving distract. >> Thank you for bringing it. >> Oh, yes. Thank you. >> Okay, we are on agenda item 10. Resolution authorizing condemnation of property owned by Full Gospel Family Outreach Ministries located at 5601 North Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard, Valley View Acres, Third Edition. An existing public necessity requires the acquisition of a drainage storm sewer easement for storm water improvements in this vicinity. This is in council district 1. >> Good morning, council. There's Matt with the public works engineering. Uh there's become a need to construct a sidewalk along 56th Street North near MLK Boulevard. And as part of that effort, we need to extend a box that goes under the road. And that extension of the box results in us needing to take some uh drainage easement from this property owner. And due to title issues, we are unable to solve this. And so we need to move forward with confirmation. And I ask that you support the resolution for that. Any followup questions? Makes sense. Okay. Thank you. >> Thanks, All right. We are on agenda item 11, [cough and clears throat] license agreement between the city of Tulsa and Caroli Ingram and Richard Rabinowitz for property located at 6706 South Florence Avenue, lots one and two, block one of the Brand Hills edition to install, use, and maintain what sound like some really fancy driveways. Yes. So, uh, these individuals have opted to do a color stained rock salt finished concrete with diamond cuts in it, which is outside the standard that the city of Tulsa would utilize. And so, this license agreement just puts basically them on notice that if for some reason that that driveway needed to be removed for utility repair or street repair. City of Tulsa would not be placing that particular style driveway back. We would be doing standard. I'm sure at that time they would come forward and do it themselves with the standard that they would like. So, I would ask that you approve this license agreement. >> Okay. Any questions on that one? Um, classically, this is in council district 9. Okay. I forgot to read that part. Just adding in God's country. Okay. Um, thank you. I think that covers that. We are on agenda item 12, discussion with the city of Tulsa's interim emergency management director and representatives from the National Weather Service and Tulsa Area Emergency Management Agency regarding coordination, communication, and response to severe severe weather events brought forward by Bengal, Gilbert, and Dectaray. Definitely timely given our recent weather. >> Yes. Y >> good morning. Thanks for having us. Uh Coral Roberts, Commissioner of Public Safety in the Mayor's Office. I'll let our guests introduce ourselves and then we'll run through what I've got real quick here. >> Bill Smiley, the director of the Tulsa Area Emergency Management Agency. >> Good morning. Steve Pills, National Weather Service, Tulsa. >> Thanks for coming. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, of course. We wanted to put this on the agenda only because of the the weather that came through East Tulsa a couple weeks ago. It was the week before Thanksgiving. Yeah. Um >> commissioner got a three-way call from yours truly, the three of us going, "What's going on? There was a EFO that hit East Tulset." >> So, and um I mean, I found out about it through just watching Mike Collier. Um and he, you know, put a warning out of some uh funnel clouds in East Tulsa and I may still have a little bit of PTSD uh from the 41st tornado. >> So, um I was very I was just worried and those that were those stormchasers that were going to um had also uh seen the funnel cloud as well. So, just wanted to have the conversation with you. We knew that there had been some shift changes within uh the city and the county and where we are and who's making we understand that National Weather Service is the one that issues those >> but we didn't hear sirens because I was at 30o when that hit and I noticed something was happening but I I pulled up you know radar I I go to Fox 23 sorry Mark Mike Collier but I saw we were in a thing but there were no like funnel or polygons or whatever so I was just kind of like I I don't know. And then that's when Chris called me or you did. Yeah. >> And then we were like, "Oh no." So then we called Chief Baker and we called Laurel. What are we supposed to do? [laughter] >> So in all fairness, I was out of town. I was also out of town for 2017. So I was out of town. Maybe you should be. >> I think my concern is I just didn't hear sirens that led to the bigger conversation 2017. >> So I have a quick presentation that we could run through or just real specific questions. I think maybe you could target those to the presentation. We'll we'll cover some of those. We'll take questions and obviously >> I will surface as just if it comes up in the presentation or for us to put a pin in for later after the presentation maybe. I just know maybe some of us have gotten questions from like the weather the other day and all the traffic accidents which I think mostly sounded like they happened on the highway. But I think there were questions. Yeah, I think that our point here just is to address the specific concerns regarding the >> tornatic storm a couple weeks ago and then we can talk about like the division and the future of where emergency management looks like for a city and county perspective. >> Okay, great. >> Thank you. >> Uhhuh. No problem. >> Um, so one of the questions that councelor director Wright and councelor Gilbert both already mentioned was the tornado sirens and the lack of hearing sirens. Um, and so just the purpose of the sirens and kind of a quick background. I mean, it's very elementary, very basic, but they're designed to warn people when they're outdoors. Um, you know, we hear that people can't hear them inside. Well, that's not the purpose, right? There's multi-alerting systems that we, you know, we all have te technology advancements that come in on the phone. There's radio, social media, television. Those are all also considered alerting or warning systems. So, folks that are outside that might not be close to televisions, whatnot. Um, so they are designed to warn uh people that are outdoors. There's over 80 sirens in the city of Tulsa. In the county, there's over a hundred total. Um, so they're u there's maps on our city of Tulsa website that show where the sirens are, the alerting areas, what's covered. Um, and a tornado siren. Um, there's a three minute street tone. If we stay in here another 15 minutes, we'll probably hear it because Wednesdays at noon is when we we run the the uh the trials on those. But it's it's what we all hear. It's what we're familiar with when we're, you know, live in Oklahoma for enough time. There are other alerts. I'm not going to, you know, dive into those right now because they're not tornado related. So, um, when do the sirens sound? And I might just defer this. These are just a couple really high level basic comments, but to the National Weather Service to answer. Typically, it's when winds are in excess of 80 miles an hour or there's rotation confirmed on a radar. Is there more to add to that? that maybe from a perspective or is that generally very fair to say? >> Well, that's yeah, the siren siren activation lies with the emergency management. So, we you're in contact with them during bad weather. Uh questions back and forth, but yeah, that's been the consistent that's been >> there's a sound for but there's a different flooding sound too, right? >> There is. Yes. Flooding >> nuclear and there's a nuclear sound. Yeah. So, >> um and then let's hope we don't hear that one. >> The flooding one in 2019. >> Yeah, that I remember that. what initiates a siren. Uh so when a tornado warning is issued, uh again, and we talked about kind of what pro prompts that um the sirens are, uh they are so when there is a warning issued for a polygon, there's four quadrants um in the city of Tulsa. When there is a tornado warning issued, that polygon automatically sounds those sirens. there are redundancies in place for if that doesn't work right and so there is the capability of manual pushing of a button at the emergency operations center through an individual and then also dispatch has the ability to sound the sirens um and so there are um like I said redundancies to ensure that that happens and then why did this tornado sirens not go off specifically a couple of weeks ago I put in there the National Weather Service quote. Uh so I will say that they did issue a special weather advisory. Um but the circumstances, the atmospheric circumstances, what was going on with the weather was not even sufficient enough to prompt a severe thunderstorm warning. Um and furthermore, not even a tornado warning. So the sirens would not have gone off. Um and it was very brief, very weak. the pro a storm that produced a maximum of 60 mph winds and it was classified as an EF tornado or EF0ero tornado. Um, and then my last slide just gives you a little bit of kind of how those tornadoes are classified. Um, and the damage that is typically associated with each one of those. So, I'm going to pause it here because this is where I think we have the discussion about the recent storm and then if we want to maybe branch off into future of what emergency management looks like. >> Well, if I can add too the the storm was tracked from Creek County across Tulsa County. Um, and like you'd mentioned the atmosphere didn't really support anything significant. The rotation by radar was not particularly strong. Um and so essentially the the decision was that a tornado warning and everything that happens during a tornado warning, all the the hospitals going to code black, moving people, all the things that have to happen was disproportionate to the the the tornado that occurred. It's barely at in fact we don't think the winds exceeded 60. Some would say we shouldn't even call it a tornado as the graphic would suggest at 65. Um it was probably something for about 60 seconds. Um and so it just a formal tornado warning with the sirens would have been disproportionate. There could have been potential impacts in the community from just the warning and that would far outweigh the um the actual damage that occurred which for my knowledge was none. We we surveyed through the area and I'm not sure that we've ever heard of any damage directly attributed. >> Yeah, we got zero calls for service, zero questions and no emergency response was required either from police or fire or MS. I would add too I think that type of thing happens more often than we know it. In that particular day it was particularly cool and humid. Wasn't a a typical storm day and those conditions sometimes make even the weakest swirls visible. So sometimes someone may have a 50 mph gust in their neighborhood and it was that same thing. It's just the humidity didn't allow us to see it. So it was >> makes sense. >> It was tracked. We have algorithms that look at all the radar data and it was picked up on in Creek County and there were two people dedicated to watching the storm. We saw the storm chaser reports. We actually had interaction with Tulsa International on on the information. So it it was tracked and I think everybody just thought that this if if it intensifies we can we can act on it but that was the anticipated result and that's it didn't intensify. So >> councelor Gilbert that was my question was going to be even though if there's a a funnel sighting. I mean, it doesn't necessarily ignite a tornado warning or sirens. >> There could be circumstances where that that we see funnal clouds that never touch down and we know they're going to happen and and we will issue a special weather statement like we've done that day. >> There's other times if the atmosphere appear appears primed and there's a funnel cloud report, then the tornado warning would happen just just very instantly. So, >> okay. >> And I think that was our initial concern is because there was a sighting. It was on social media from a >> from a weather or from a meteorologist posted on social media. So, our concern was like, was there a failure here, >> right? No. No, that's it's it's a perfect concern. I mean, because it's Yeah, you're exactly right. In fact, we received the first spotter report from in Jinx. Um, and so that was relayed to us in real time. And so they said they saw rotation in the cloud base in Jinx just barely through the rain. So we we even knew that and we were watching the the stormchasers on their social media. So we knew what they were reporting and and so we were seeing their pictures live and it just it just didn't appear to us that it was going to rise to ana the rise to a need to issue a warning because again the the reaction to the warning is pretty significant and a lot of a lot of things go in motion. So >> so let me ask another question. Uh when you're talking about because you talked about sirens are for warning people outside. >> Would you not see that as a danger that high of wind 65 to 85 where you're talking about potential flying debris hitting people? >> Well, and then their siren criteria does does start at 80 80 miles an hour, but the radar data we were looking at was all sub 60. I think we gave a generic range 50 to 60 miles an hour. Even with 60 mph, we probably would seen some broken branches. And we didn't even find broken branches. There were leaves in the air. >> It it very likely didn't even approach 60. >> Okay. >> And I I will say that I got a couple questions. I don't remember it was from this [clears throat] table about sirens in Rogers County, potentially adjacent to city of Tulsa. Um, and the reports I got back from our incident management folks, um, was that there were no sirens in Rogers County that were ever activated, but I think you might be able to confirm that as well, but so I'm not sure what people were actually hearing, but there were confirmation no sirens in Rogers County were ever activated as well. >> That brings up a good point. If if the first report comes in to the to the city emergency operations center, the sirens can go off before you hear a National Weather Service warning because if if that first report comes through dispatch, then by all means, the city should blow with their sirens whether we issue a tornado warning or not. >> More often than not, like was mentioned in the criteria, we'll see rotation on radar that strengthening before the first report, but it's also in place that any community can activate their sirens whenever they think they need to. So that was the challenge is none of us got got an alert on our phone, right? >> And so that's what kind of created this kind of panic between us >> and that the weather statement we issued won't trigger your phone. It's a lower level. So >> okay, >> I think it's important to note too that for example for me, I was out of the office as well. I was in the area though and uh I just started hearing chatter the people around me and I was asking what was going on and so the relationships that we have are really critical because instead of me trying to figure out and interview people right there that I don't even know I just picked up the phone and called Steve immediately and asked him what was going on and had a conversation about it to make sure that you know we weren't missing something that could be going on that we made you know needed to activate something or I need to call somebody else like Laurel and get together and which is the in pretty much everything that we do, we just go right to the source and and work down. >> That's that's that's a good point. I mean, there's there's protocols and that we all have each other's cell phone numbers. Yeah. >> So, I mean, so quickly we can cross check with each other as well. >> So, if anybody needs my cell phone number, I give it out. So, >> mine too. >> So, might be good. >> Got a [clears throat] picnic tomorrow. >> I get those calls. [laughter] >> We won't abuse it, but >> I have a wedding in a year. It's mine's 918 630 public [laughter] work for the public. >> Okay, >> that's good. Yeah, >> we'll make sure that those numbers are shared with this group. So, yeah. >> Well, thank you very much um especially for coming today and and giving us an update on everything that transpired, especially that day. Like I said, um we I we don't want to go through another 41st in Yale uh 2017 storm like we did. So, um I mean I have you talk about tornado sirens being warning people outside. Well, I have my own tornado sirens inside my house. So, two of them. So, >> um but they didn't even give me warning. So, >> but >> no doggy treats for them. >> Exactly. But um we just appreciate it because I mean we get those phone calls too. Um you know asking you know why why didn't you know I had a few uh shingles fly off my roof. Why why wasn't anybody notified or why didn't we have any sirens? So >> um it's it's good to have that clarification of when it's categorized of a tornado warning and um >> usually we can blame the weather. So, I mean, if you need me, I've always tell the EM if you need me to come before your mayor or counselors explaining what went on that day. Most of the time it's just going to be the weather was not cooperative. >> Yeah. Well, we live in Oklahoma, >> but we have good weather prediction here at our school. And that I think is the question that councelor Bellis had. Like, we knew ice was coming, >> but I I was told that the highways were not >> proactively deiced or sanded or whatever, >> which I know you also have more slides I don't touch on. >> Yeah. >> And that's ODOT. Well, we don't ODOT for highways, right? Uh Terry Bong, his crew, the city uh >> streets guys, they were out at midnight. They were >> brining. There was sand and stuff on city streets that I was on, but I think the highways had so many accidents. >> Yeah. >> And highways do not brine. They don't go down a brine. They do salt and sand. Um and so but yeah there are you know everybody knows their piece of the pie when it comes to that kind of weather and and I'll address this on the next slide when we talk about you know the direction where we're moving just >> yes the uh dissolution of tea but relationships are important right like we and especially when you talk about the weather which is primarily what we deal with here but even you know roads even if we were to deal with a hazardous materials type of spill it's not confined to city limits Right. We understand that those relationships are extremely important and the folks that do this, that have the certifications, the trainings that are passionate about this, have the relationships, they understand those, they understand the dynamics of the instant command structure. And I am confident in everybody's ability that's sitting at the table, whether it be operating or logistics or making the decisions, that things will get done like they need to be done for our community. whether that be the city or whether that be the county or whether it be an adjacent community or county. So, um I Bill touched on and I just wanted to say that relationships are important and I'm confident in the ones that we have established here. So, um just having said that, this is a quick slide on where we're going. Um currently, TEMA is still in existence. Um we are working uh our city legal um city of Tulsa city legal and Tulsa County are working through anou on a separation um a transition to Tulsa County emergency management and Tulsa city emergency management. Um when the former director left that obviously left an opening with tea. Um that's when these discussions started about what is best like how do we want to move forward there was an agreement between city and county to have separate emergency management systems but obviously you know work closely work jointly and collaborate together. Bill was hired on as the county emergency manager. Mayor Nichols named me uh to help through the transition um for the city of Tulsa. So, that's currently where we're operating, working through anou. Um, I've got folks for the city looking at that contract. Bill's got his folks um just dividing assets, dividing personnel, figuring out how this is going to work um from a city perspective. I plan on presenting a budget for the city of Tulsa emergency management office in next year's fiscal year for our personnel, our resources, the things that we're going to need. Um I I don't know what that looks like yet. We do a budget every year for Teima. So there are dollars that go to Teima. Um and so some of those dollars will just be reappropriated to for our offices. Um and the EOC is another big question that's come up. It will continue to operate in the basement of the um police courts building until we move out of there. When we move to the public safety center, uh we do have construction for new EOC there. um and county is you know there'll be office space availability and access to them in both of those. So, >> thank you. >> Any do you have any bill you want to add or >> Well, we're in the same position. Um, we're going to be submitting our budget in December for the 27 year. We'll be early. Uh, that way we've got the county commissioners and, uh, you know, everybody that's in that approval process, you know, up to speed on what we're doing. I think it's important to mention that, you know, we we have the EOC. Y'all are welcome down there. time you want just to come down and see what we're doing and how the transition's going. We've had folks go down there. Also, I'd like to say we're we're going to be available to you just like we are now. There's not going to be any difference. I've been telling everybody you're going to get almost double the effort, right? Because you have two EMS and I've known their folks for decades. Um, so I'm really comfortable about what's going on with that relationship and how much more deeper it's getting. The other thing too I think that's really helpful is we requested from the state a specific person. The state has like in homeland security different quads and they have people assigned to those quads from the office of emergency management. So we requested one of the most seasoned uh emergency managers in the state to help us through our transition process and to be here for us. We have direct access to the state if we need something more and it's worked out really well already with our planning. So, um, we're just we're looking forward to the opportunity, um, to serve the citizens even better than we already are. So, and you all, if you have a question about something that's going on, lawyers, they can call, too. Um, you can call my number. That's no problem. And I'll get a hold of Laurel or she'll call me and we'll get it all figured out for you immediately, right? We'll get you some kind of word back. So, I think that's important for the elected officials to have that. >> That's great. >> Thank you. >> That's all I have. Thank you so much. >> Hopefully we'll have a quiet spring. >> Council Ben. Oh, I'm sorry. >> You're talking about the EOC >> County EOC or Tulsa EOC in the PSC. How'd you like that? >> It will be an emergency operations center. >> Right. >> Right. Is that county? Is that a joint EOC? >> It can serve as a joint if if they I mean they have the option to stand up their own. Right. Like I said, it's it's available to county to use. It's >> But that's what you're trying to figure out in this process. >> I think we've got that uh pretty much it's pretty clear. They're going to have the public safety building, right? And they'll be the EOC will be there >> and then I'm going to have a separate county emergency manager because they're they're different functions. I'm more strategic in the county and pull resources together and coordinate and they're tactical to think of that way. But what's nice is if they need to come to me, there's space and if I need to go to them, there's space there. Okay. So, we can work together. Got you. >> You know, as well as FEMA and the state and they're all just one big group of really the city's EOC will be in the PSC. >> Correct. Yeah. >> There's another flood incident where we need to, you know, draw these resources. >> Um, we've got the space at the public safety center to adequately. >> And you know, we did bring up flood and that that was my flood plan when I was so not going to have a problem. [laughter] >> That's taken care of. I can I can't guarantee it because I hate that word, but it'll be good. >> Good. >> Thank you. Thank you for being here. >> Yeah, we appreciate you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Appreciate >> it. Any other follow questions? Thank you all so much. Um with that item 10, we are adjourned.