Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Maybe I can't. >> It's uh 10:00. It's time for the council be in session. The council members, please come to the council chamber. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. is Mr. Kowski and Mr. Wax. Would the council members please come to the council chamber? Mr. Willie Thomas has arrived. So we have six members. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Okay, we have a quorum. Would the council please come to order? Sergeant, would you clear all these people out that don't belong in the circle area? Sergeant, call the role. Alerone, Alator, Bernson, Chick, Fure, Galanter, Goldberg, Hernandez, Holden, Msakowski, Ridley, Thomas, Swornich, Wex, Walters, Ferrarero. 10 members present in a quorum, Mr. President. Okay. The council will please come to order. This is a meeting of the city council for the city of Los Angeles on the 25th day of February, 1998. There are 15 council districts in the city. The regular meeting days are Tuesday, Wednesdays, and Fridays. We are currently being viewed by cable subscribers throughout the Los Angeles area and we're also being monitored by council phone. The first order of business >> approval of the minutes. >> That's what I thought because it showed the uh the first um Miss Galanter moves. Mrs. Chick seconds. There's no objection. Unanimous vote. The next item >> commendatory resolutions for approval. >> There's no objection. Unanimous vote. Uh members of the council, uh we're going to uh have the public comment period at the beginning of the meeting and I'm going to call on Pat Sanders first. Pat Sanders. >> No, they Pat Sanders. I thought and then uh set the time for 10 minutes. Bob Duncan. Uh I Good morning. My name is Pat Sanders. I'm vice president of the Engineers and Architects Association. I'm an employee of the Department of Water and Power. Really upset today. Our jobs are on the line. Our utility is on the line. The city is on the line. And you're on the line with us. This this layoff effort is erroneous here. You've sat up and you've approved 216 million for golden parachutes for people that don't even have to get off the plane. Then you went along and you approved another 30 to 50 million for people that still don't have to jump off the plane. And you've only allowed 84 million for people that you're just going to throw off without a parachute that probably could steer the plane and and provide a safe landing. I mean, I don't, you know, I don't understand really where you're coming from here. When when people go to layoffs, it's because of lack of work and lack of funds. Lack of work. We've got people in specific job classifications that are targeted for layoffs. I'll just use drafting technicians that have been under understaffed for years that are working overtime. They're not working overtime to milk the system. They're working overtime because there's work available. We have other classifications. is the same. We have people that have already left and we have other people that are being forced to do their work that is not in the same classifications. I mean, you have tried to go forth. You've got a guy that's come in here and rode in here from out of town that doesn't care about the city, that doesn't know a dagum thing about the utility, and he's telling you that you've got to kick these people out in the street. I mean, I I don't see how you can go along and as members, as representatives of the city, allow that. We're talking about city service here. We're talking about city servants. We have at our own expense spent money for an economist to come from out of town to show you other plans. You said we want to have all other alternatives. We've done that. Mr. Freeman has not once sat down with any representatives our association to work that out. We've been downsizing since 1993 and we would continue to do so as needed. But you this this is a you're killing the utility and you're killing your city and you're doing it under the guise of deregula oh utility deregulation and you're doing it with Mr. Free. You're you're allowing him to do this and this is wrong. This guy is just like a used car salesman. He's coming down the hill. He's talking one thing to the employees and one thing to you. Now let's go back with the issue of layoffs. And I understand layoffs and a lot you guys are civil servants. I know you understand layoff. I get a layoff notice. I bump back to the last position I held. Now, how are you going to tell me that the person in that classification I don't bump another post person? And that's what our people are being told. Oh, yeah. You're going to bump back, but uh when we get to the other unions, you know, we don't want to touch them. We want the same fair treatment that the other unions are getting. You've allowed them, you've given them packages, but they don't have the threat of layoffs. You're trying to do too many things and allowing this man to do too many things at one time, and he doesn't understand what he's doing. It's obvious when by his actions last week and trying to raid the retirement system. He doesn't have a stake in it. We do. We have a stake in this city. You know, I implore you, you know, you I don't know what else to say. You guys need to I I I really believe either you're illinformed. understand that you have a heavy responsibility of the city budget on you. We have we have a responsibility too to the citizens and to our families and I don't think that you want to kick these people out in the street if there's another alternative and there is. You need to work with us. We're tired of coming up with ideas and nobody is listening to us. Freeman is not going to work with us. I have heard each one of you individuals here uh different council members speak about joint labor management committees. We have six since Mr. Freeman has been in there since September. Not one of them has met. We're not a union jumping up and down saying, "No, no, we're not going to do this. We're we're trying to work to save a utility in a city." And I feel that you should be in that fight with us. Where are you here? >> Mr. Freeman is just like the Energizer buddy. You're gonna have to take the battery out to get because he's gonna keep going over Hillanddale. doesn't care what is left. That is not his job. And I think that that's where you've got to really look at what the issue is. Mr. Freeman was not hired by you. He's doing according to what his job description is and and to gut, to destroy, to dismantle the utility. >> Okay. We have somebody else who wants >> Okay. I'm I'm going to just make it brief. I'm just going to say Mr. Freeman, if he lays all these people off and he's going to come here and tell you that the utility is still going to be competitive, he's trying to spin straw into the gold from the 15th floor. And good luck to him and good luck to you if you let that happen. >> Okay, Bob. Bob Duncan, don't use a time up clapping. Uh, uh, Bob Duncan. >> Thank you, Mr. President, members of the council. First of all, um, I'd like to thank this council for the previous support that they've given uh, the association. I can tell by the letters, very well thoughtout letters that some of the council members have written in response to our members that they understand the situation. They're they're sensitive and they're supportive. And we would hope that the council would continue in that vein. We need basically three elements. We're here as an organization to seek settlement. We're not here to seek any kind of issue other than settlement. It's time that the games playing has come to an end. It's time for the rhetoric to come to an end. It's time for posturing to come to an end. It's time to get a settlement. And we're here to tell you that there's basically three elements that we need in that settlement. We need a cash incentive for those employees who are targeted. Nobody in this city is targeted but our employees. And you are going to dismantle the entire brain trust of the Department of Water and Power if you send those targeted employees out on the street because of the seniority system. All of the people that we've recruited throughout the country, very talented employees are going to hit the streets. And you can't afford to do that as an institution that wants to be competitive. you must give us the additional cash incentive that we need to make sure the numbers get to the point whatever those numbers are and we have yet to receive them to where it is acceptable for both sides. The second issue that we need is we need a redeployment system very quickly. A redeployment system would be those employees who did not opt for the retirement or the cash incentive that would be left and would go into what we call a redeployment pool. Those employees would either be retrained or redeployed throughout the entire city. Doesn't make any difference what bargaining unit they go into. Doesn't make any difference what union they go into. They would be redeployed. You cannot go through the system that they want to go through right now at DWP without letting the dust settle first. And those people remaining would go through that redeployment pool. And the third thing and most important, we need some good oldfashioned good faith bargaining at the table. We have yet to receive any kind of meaningful counterp proposals. We're tired of going to the table and negotiating with ourselves. Has anybody ever sat across the table and put a counter proposal there and look at the opposing party and the opposing party simply says, "Well, we're going to stand on our position." How far do you think negotiations can get when you take that kind of games playing? We can no longer afford to do that. We are here because we want a settlement. We are here because we need a settlement. And we are here seeking your support. And I am confident that we will get that settlement if we have your support. All right. Mrs. U deleaning. Dleaning. >> I know it, but this is public comment. Okay, you better hurry because the time is running out. Miss Leaning, >> I didn't know you were here. I would have written it on the card. Okay, leading Sunland Tahunga. First, I want to thank the council person from the valley who last Wednesday at the Enino council meeting spoke of looking into the outrageous sewer service charges to those of us in the valley. Thank you. Wish I could say the thank you to the council person from Sunland to hunga but u didn't quite do it did we anywh who uh yesterday carnival posings martyra have run their course and today we have what is known as the 40 days of the lenton season and during this time uh people of that persuasion or that observance will ask themselves what are you going to give up for lent well I would like to make a suggestion question that the council would for those 40 days give up spending the taxpayers's money. The council uh yes the council person from South Central has re has reiterated almost every day the city is broke and uh also not well how shall I put this the uh first day of January 1998 a psychic announced that Los Angeles would be declaring bankruptcy. Thank you. >> Okay, that's uh all the cards we have and the public comment period is closed. The next item, >> first item item noticed for public hearing. Item number one. >> Okay, we have we have some people that want to be heard on item number one. Um Wing Hop Fun and L JL Jackson, Mr. Fun. Mr. Jackson. >> Okay, go ahead. Second. Uh, good morning, President Ferraro, members of the city council. Uh, my name is JL Jackson, director of planning for a company called Licenses and Permits. We represent Winghop Fun Jins Singh Incorporated in a Caldera approval action before you. The reason that it comes before you is that uh the council office is neutral on the subject. >> Oh, okay. >> And therefore, it had to come before you for uh for your action. What we have before us is a an oriental medicinal shop. It's arguably the largest one in uh Chinatown, downtown LA, possibly even in all of LA County. What they sell are medicinals, some of which either themselves contain a level of alcohol or are most efficaciously uh ingested with such things as uh what are called healthpreserving wines. And we have a couple of bottles of those. And they state right on them that they're health oriented wines. They do not seek to sell beer and wine in the normal context. In fact, they don't want to have anything to do with beer. They don't have a cooler. These are strictly medicinal wines. They have support of people from as far away that is customers as far away to the north as Lancaster, to the east as Hosienda Heights, to the south uh Garden Grove, and to the southwest Torrance. So you can see that it uh has quite a clientele in terms of of region serving. In fact, this very morning I spoke with an acquaintance of mine who is a doctor of oriental medicine and before I got the words wing hop out of my mouth, he said he had been there the day before yesterday to make a sizable purchase. And that's sheer coincidence. What is before you then is the necessity to make a finding that a that this particular use in this location will uh advance the uh public convenience or necessity. And I believe that it has been amply demonstrated before the office of zoning administration as well as the council office that this not only serves a public convenience but also um satisfies a public necessity. I have with me uh well I might add that of the 10 mandatory findings that the zoning administrator must make in granting a conditional use which was granted uh the first of those 10 mandatory findings has to do with the very subject that Calera addresses out of public convenience and necessity and obviously since it was granted he found that those conditions do exist. Uh along with me today is Mr. Poke who if you desire can tell you more about the the nature of these medicinals as well as the conduct of the business. Okay. Well uh if the council wants to hear that Wing Pong is not here. >> Uh Mr. Mr. Pacu is a representative of them. >> Okay. Well be be very brief. We've given you quite a bit of time already. >> I'm here just to tell you the uniqueness of our wines. We are not regular liquors. We are medicinal wines and herbal teas, herbal wines. They have a though they do have a spirit level, a distill spirit alcohol level. So we need a license to sell them. And our survey reveals to us that there is no other places in the whole Chinatown area which are selling those very traditional Chinese house preserving liquors. Okay, these are not really very uh generally consumed by western people. They have a very strange some some people say they're very strange taste. So we we will not have a problem like people coming in pay5 $10 and have a can of beer and going on the street. This will not happen. Okay. Um it is natural for people if they ever want to find out something about Chinese medicine or traditional wines the first place they get to they go to is Chinatown but in the whole China area they cannot find and buy those traditional house preserving wines. This I want to bring it to you the uniqueness of this product. Thank you. >> Karen is closed. Uh is there any discussion on item number one? >> Uh Mr. We need a motion uh uh to grant the application. Mr. uh Bernson, >> he he has a motion before you uh before the clerk from the plum committee that with Miss Msacowski seconding it. >> Where is Mr. Bernson? Is he here? >> Mr. Bernson. This is just the caldera findings for the conditional use permit for the liquor. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Mr. Bernson, on item number one, you have a motion. Is that >> on item number one? >> Mr. Ridley Thomas. >> Point of information. >> Point of what is your point? uh that the technician should modulate the uh system. That's my point right now, Mr. President. Um >> the council person in whose district this project is proposed is not here. There's representation by the speaker that the council person is neutral. Do we know otherwise? Well, the only thing is that his office has not asked that we continue this or has not said one way or another. So, why don't we leave it on the desk? Yes. Mr. Mr. Bernson might have some. >> Yeah, we have a motion here >> from >> This is apparently uh in conjunction with the for the council office. I hereby move the council adopt the following recommendations with respect to the application determination of public convenience of or necessity for the sale of alcohol for off-site consumption at 727 North Broadway number 102 Los Angeles Wing Hop Fun Jins Singh Incorporated in city council district 1 on today's council agenda. I believe this has been circulated. Does does everybody have a copy of this or do they not? >> Okay. determine the issuance of a liquor license at 727 North Broadway. Uh, Los Angeles will serve the public convenience or necessity will not tend to create a law enforcement problem. Grant the application for determination of public convenience or necessity for the sale of alcoholic beverages for off-site consumption at that site. Uh based upon the above findings, instruct the city clerk to transmit this determination to the state department of alcohol and beverage control as required findings under business professional code section 23958.4 and so moved. And I believe Cindy, you're the second on that, right? >> Thank you. >> Is there any further discussion on this? If not, prepare the role on the motion. Tabulate the vote. >> 11 eyes. >> That is approved. We'll send that forth with uh Miss Galanter for a presentation. >> Yeah, they'll come up here. Thank you, Mr. President and council members. Um I know this isn't our normal presentation day, but I did want to be sure to get this in during the month of February. I'm happy to honor Dr. Terren Roberts any time of the year. But I in addition to his achievements, which I'll tell you about in a minute, you're actually going to be meeting this morning somebody who's been a part of our modern history in the United States and particularly of our modern African-American history. And so I wanted to be sure we did that. We did this and we had the opportunity to recognize you during African-American history month. Uh this is Dr. Terrence Roberts who has built himself an industrious an illustrious career and also industrious based on human relations and u trying to build help people understand how to get along together better. He manages uh issues of racial and ethnic diversity and conflict resolution. He is a psychologist. He's um worked with Los Angeles County Children's Services, St. Helena Hospital, UCLA School of Social Welfare, and he is currently on the faculty at Antioch University, which happens to be located in my district. Um, it hides itself pretty well, but it's there. Um, Dr. Roberts is also a published author and I mentioned that he's a an accomplished psychologist, a licensed social worker. But particularly interesting to me is the fact that um when I was in high school, I guess I was watching television and watching the beginnings of serious efforts at school integration in the southern part of our country which at the time was seemed like a separate country and Dr. Roberts in when he was in high school was one of the Little Rock Nine who integrated Little Rock High School. And I'm sure many of you remember the scenes on television of the National Guard and the the troops blocking the door and the National Guard opening it up and these young kids in the face of all this hostility going to school. And I was very moved by that at the time. And I remember thinking, how do they have the nerve to do this? I mean, this is a very scary thing to do. And so, it's my great pleasure to honor today, to have met one in my adulthood. And to honor today, Dr. Terrence Roberts and by proxy the other eight, who I am told actually are still in touch with each other. Um, as you can see, Dr. Roberts went on from that rather hardening experience to uh dedicate himself to trying to help prevent the need for situations like that in the future. So we I have here a resolution from the city of Los Angeles recognizing um Dr. Terren Roberts and uh skipping all the whereases most of which I've already told you. Uh, therefore, be it resolved that the city council of the city of Los Angeles hereby congratulates and honors Dr. Terren Roberts for his commitment to the youth of today, which I'm going to ask him to tell you about. Uh, the youth of today who will be tomorrow's leaders and wishes him success in all future endeavors. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Terren Roberts. All yours. >> Thank you, Councilwoman Galanter and the rest of the city council members. It is indeed my pleasure to be here and to accept this uh commendation and just like to inform you that the Little Rock 9 is alive and well. We have formed the Little Rock Nine Foundation which has been established to support the educational endeavors of uh young people throughout this nation and uh hopefully we will be calling upon you for your support of that endeavor as well. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. President. >> Thank you, Mr. Gander. Okay, the next item, >> items for which public hearings have been held, items 2 through 7. >> All right. Are there any special by council members 2 through 7? Any specials? If not, prepare the role on those. We need a motion and we'll uh Mr. Bernson will move prepare the role and tabulate the vote. >> 12 eyes. >> Fourth with on four. Those are approved. Next item. >> Next item, Mr. President. Items for which public hearings have not been held. Items 8 through 15. 8 through 15. We have Somebody wants to be heard on 12. We'll call that a special. Uh, anybody want to be heard on any of the other items? 8 through 15. >> Yeah. Seeing none, the public hearing is closed. Uh any specials by council members 8 through 15. If not, prepare the role on 8 through 15 with the exception of 12. Tabulate the vote. >> 12 eyes. >> Those are approved. Those include the ordinances on 8, 9, and 10. And we will send 13 forth with the motion. Uh, Mr. Alakan moves on those motions that were needed. Okay. The next item >> next item, Mr. President, item number 12. You have cards. >> Yeah. Well, we'll we'll do that after. Let's do that. >> Item number one, Mr. President. Huh? >> I know. Oh. Uh, are we through the agenda? >> Uh, >> yes, Mr. President. That's except for spe uh number 12 called special. >> Okay, let's do 12 then. Uh, we have a Billy Casper that wants to Bill Casper that wants wants to be heard on 12. >> Thank you. I'm Bill Jasper and I represent the ownership of Regency Plaza Shopping Center on the corner of North Las Palmus and Yucka Street and we are opposed to the continued barricading of Yucka Street in Hollywood. We have been unable to re-equip and reopen a laundromat and pizza restaurant which served the community for over 35 years due to the blockading of the street. Other stores such as a beauty shop in our center as well as a cleaners and photo shop in a commercial building across the street have lost considerable business. These business owners as well as many residents have petitioned to have the barricades removed. At the time the barricades were installed approximately 3 years ago, the 18th Street gang had taken control of the street. All the barricading accomplished was to move the gang activities over to the periphery of the barricades. Approximately two years ago to an intens due to an intensive crackdown by the LAPD crash unit, the 18th Street gang moved its activities to other parts of Hollywood. There are other more effective ways of repelling crime that would not hurt businesses and residents alike. For example, we asked for over a year ago for the expansion of the Hollywood Business Improvement District to our street, and we pleased that this is finally coming to fruition. This will mean that private patrols can supplement regular police activities. In the interim, before the B is put in place, we can cooperate with other property owners and jointly contract for an expanded 24-hour Westech patrol that we've been using for many years. These barricades were installed approximately three years ago and did not meet state law requirements at that time and still are in violation of state law for the following reasons. One, the traffic on surrounding streets have been adversely affected. For example, traffic that would otherwise use Yuckah Street has been forced to divert to Highland Avenue, Franklin Avenue, and Hollywood Boulevard. The traffic count at Hollywood at Highland and Franklin is already at a gridlocked 58,000 cars. The report by the transportation department that was submitted to the transportation committee was completely inadequate and did not come close to meeting the state reporting requirements. Two, the barricades create hazardous conditions and impede and ha hamper emergency vehicles such as fire trucks and ambulances placing residents in jeopardy. The police department report, although mentioning the misgivings of the fire department, was incomplete in its analysis of the hazards imposed by the barricades. Three, deliveries of freight to commercial locations have been seriously impeded as evidences as evidenced by letters from truckers. Four, the original imposition of these barricades was unjustified in that the residents were not notified as required by state law and therefore did not have an opportunity to state their positions. Five, more recently, there was no public notice for the last meeting of the transportation committee which was conducted by one member of the of the committee, namely its chairman, Nate Holden. But yet the notices that went out to the residents in preparation for today's meeting were misleading and then made it appear that the full committee had approved of the barricading when in reality there wasn't even a quorum present. Even the notice of the meeting that we are having today was not sent to many residents of apartment houses directly impacted by the barricades. According to the census, there are over 7,000 residents in the Yuckah corridor, but yes, yet yet less than 30% of the residents were notified. What this motion asks you to do is to vote expostf facto for a continuation of a barricading that was installed in violation of state law in the first instance and then continued in place for over a year beyond the point at which state law required its removal. I know that it's the custom to support the council person in whose district an action is proposed. However, there are where there are overriding concerns involving fairness, waste of taxpayers money, and violation of state law that concern the citizens of all of LA, such as involved in this instance, then a council person should do what's right and not what's politically expedient. I urge you to to vote against this abomination and take these barricades down. Thank you. Okay, we have a Merl Singer that wants to be heard also. >> My name is Merl Singer. I own property on the Yucka Carter. I'm also president of the Yucka Carter Coalition of Property Owners and Managers. I am testifying in favor of continuing the bar uh the diverters, the traffic diverters for a couple of reasons. is number one, they're effective. As uh Mr. Jasper has already acknowledged, gang and drug dealing has left a good bit of this area. It has moved elsewhere. We don't exactly know where. My issue is if something works, don't fix it. These traffic diverters have been effective. I have no reason to believe that they will not continue to be effective. Uh Mr. Mr. Jasper talks about the laundromat and restaurant being closed in his strip center. They were closed before these uh traffic diverters were installed. So I don't see any particular connection between the two. The B will extend to Yaka. That is excellent. That will be next year. That's not this year. I don't want gangs coming back into my neighborhood waiting for the B to start. Um they are not hazardous. They were checked by the fire department. I spoke to the fire department personally. They were in support of the diverters. Uh residents were notified. Residents did testify. Uh but it's not a matter of wasting money. If you vote for this, there will be no money involved at all. It will just continue the way it is. Those are my reasons for uh suggesting that you vote in favor of this motion. Thank you. >> All right. Thank you. That's all the cards we have. So, the public hearing is closed. Miss Goldberg. Yes. Uh first of all, there's a couple of uh perhaps misconceptions. Uh 2,000 notices were sent out to local residents. However, almost a thousand of them came back because the area is highly transient and those people are no longer living there. And until we get an updated list for the clerk to send out, you're right, some people are not going to know about it. But be that as it may, there is no street closure. What there is is a diversion off of through traffic so that you could no longer come off the freeway at Highland and go down Yucka and buy your drugs and get back on Kena or the other way around. It was a driveth through drugstore and now what you have to do is you can get to every single place on Yaka but it is annoying. You have to go a different way to get there. You may have to go north and south on Las Palmus or north and south on Cherokee or Whitley or Hudson to get to where you want to go on Yucka. And it may take you if you don't know the area extra time. Of course, if you know the area, you've already figured out your route. But there are no streets which are actually closed. You can get through every street. You just have to do it in a way that if you're unfamiliar with the neighborhood is going to take you and frustrate you. And so what has happened is is the drive-thru drugstore is no more. And the property owners group, which Merl Singer chairs, supports this. In fact, I believe it was their idea. Can't remember, but I think it was. And it works. And by the way, they're those little plastic ones. So if a firet truck needed to come more quickly, frankly, it just rolls over them and we have to spend a little money to put them back in again. They are not metal. They do not knock anything over. The streets are not actually closed. This does meet the criteria. It is not a designated highway or arterial. It does deal with changing the pattern of life for people who live there and for property owners who are trying to make this a safe and clean and decent place to live. And I ask for your support in continuing this uh for a little while longer while we get the other measures in place. Thank you very much. >> Want to be heard on item number 12? Mr. Wax, >> I just want to make a comment. And I was listening to Miss Goldberg because I I go to Hollywood somewhat frequently and at times uh I was caught in what looked like a maze and couldn't figure out how to how to get in or out and it the initial reaction was you know was like a little impatience but but the reality is is it is really helping deal with a serious problem and for the people and and I think what Miss Goldberg said is most telling for people who live there they figure that out. It's the people who don't live there uh who may come there uh who you may want to discourage, you know, that that have a hard time figuring out. So, so it's actually serving I think it it its purpose and um particularly I would think for businesses that rely mostly on people in the area uh to patronize it uh as opposed to some businesses that re rely a lot on people from out of the area. But um so so I I really think that something um that may cause some inconvenience is doing a lot more good uh and benefit than the inconvenience it's causing. And I don't know if there's any any empirical data to show that it has hurt business. I would think if you clean up the fundamental problem is trying to deal with that more would more than anything create a climate that would help business there. So I I I'm more than willing to go ahead with and I comment on this only because I've been involved in it and I and I it's something you learn is really good. Something that may not seem good initially I think is for a very very good purpose in the in the end. >> Dr. Bernson. Uh yeah, I supported this before and I remember this case because it was a lengthy case before our committee and I did support it and I'm going to continue to support it because of Miss Goldberg's uh concern and she knows the district a lot better than I know our district. But that having been said, I must tell you that uh I do have a concern uh for small businesses particularly that are impacted in situations like this. And I just wonder if there's anything that we can do to alleviate that or to assist. Uh because it has been a while. And if this has been a deterrent, uh this literally may put some people out of business. And if you as a property owner, if it were I or you, I think we would be concerned in those circumstances. So, I hope that the um that we as a city and Miss Goldberg particularly because it's her her area of responsibility will take a look and see what if anything can be done to try to restore um the ability of Mr. Jasper and other property owners, small businesses in the area to try to be able to u uh to attain their full potential. I think that there probably has been some damage done. Maybe it wasn't done by the barricade. Maybe it was done by the condition that existed there before. But uh whatever can be done, uh Jackie, I hope that we'll at least take a look at that. Okay. And I'm going to support >> Okay. We we have item number 12 before us to prepare the role. Tabulate the vote. >> 12 eyes. that is approved and we'll send that forth with uh we had a card from Michael Bates but it was one of those items that were hearing was not required and he was in favor of it so I just uh assume that uh he's happy. Uh the next item >> next item Mr. President is special one. >> Okay. Can we have a report on special one from the city attorney? >> Yes. Thank you. On uh Monday, February 23rd, due to the unprecedented rains of El Nino, there was a wastewater spill of sewage of approximately 20 million gallons. There is a need to discuss what can be done before the next series of storms and therefore the council would need to make the findings that the need to act arose after the posting of the agenda and there's an immediate need to act. >> Okay. Prepare the role on the findings. Tabulate the vote. >> 12 eyes. >> That is approved. Uh we do have uh Mark Gold wants to be heard on this item. >> President, I'd suggest that we have a presentation from the uh relevant bureaus. First, I'd like to say a couple of things, and Mr. Gold is uh certainly more than welcome to comment, but I think it may be helpful if that's acceptable to hear from the the bureau. First, um, if I could just start off, um, as Miss Weard mentioned, we we, um, we always have spills when there's a really heavy rain because our ground is really not equipped to handle the amount of water that comes down in a short time. But on in Monday's storm, which was essentially the mother of all storms so far, um, we found ourselves at where all of the sewage treatment plants were going full blast. They treated more than I think they're supposed to be able to treat. And yet, because of the volume of water that was coming through the sewer system and down the storm drains and everywhere else, we were forced to uh find ourselves in a situation where we lost we spilled about 20 million gallons of raw sewage. Now, just in case you wonder what that is, I have here a sample. This is one gallon of wet weather raw sewage. This is what we call the toxic cocktail. And uh picture now 20 million of these. And if you'd like to see it up close, you'll get an idea of what the uh the marine life is swimming in at this moment and the surfers are swimming in if they're out there. And there's nothing we can do. It's already out there. We have a similar problem coming from our storm drains. And I want to remind you that just yesterday we took some more money out of the storm water pollution abatement fund and we took some out last year and we we seem to keep doing that. This is what wet weather storm drain runoff looks like. And what's in this this is before you get to the sewage that comes out of the houses and the and the office buildings. What's in this is most of it's rainwater, but the rest is oil, fertilizer, dog droppings, lawn clippings, pesticides, tire rubber, sewage, all kinds of stuff. Here it is. Don't drink this. >> Yes, I know. Rudy said to me, his grandfather used to make stuff like this. Don't drink this one. >> Not those ingredients. >> It may be worse than the raw sage because that settles. So, what we have here, ladies and gentlemen, is actually a very serious situation. And we've we've I mean, it's kind of funny, but it really isn't funny at all. This is a serious threat to public health, and we've got to be in a position to minimize the hazards to public health um as well as environmental health. And we've also got to recognize why these things happen. Just uh before I call on the bureaus, I do want to mention that we've been hearing a lot and seeing a lot of media reports about the heroism of our swiftwater rescue team pulling people who shouldn't be in there in the first place out of the water. By the way, they're floating in this stuff, too. The um the uh fire department, the police department, our traffic safety officers have been out clearing streets. Everybody's been working hard. The people you haven't been hearing about are the people who've been hip deep in this stuff trying to plug the holes and fix the pipes and make sure that it minimizes that that the damage is minimized. And we really owe a debt of gratitude to a whole bunch of city employees, most of whom we've never met, who've been out there literally hip deep in this stuff for the last few days trying to fix it. So, I I think it's worth a moment of public acknowledgment that being a city employee is not always a piece of cake. Um, what I'd like to suggest is that we hear from Yes, indeed. that we hear from the Bureau of Sanitation, the Bureau of Engineering, and anybody else you feel is appropriate to explain to us why this happened, what we can do about it. There's probably not a lot we can do in time for the next storm, which will probably be in a week or so, but this could happen next year. And I know Mr. Ridley Thomas has been working very hard with you to try to get the east side interceptor sewer constructed. Um, several of you are new since we built the Norris, the the north outfall replacement sewer. But that had came also with a lot of controversy and and they all come with controversy. I just think it's important that we understand and the public understand that there aren't there's not a big range of options here. We can have it like this or we can have it not like this. So uh who wants to start? Judy. >> I'll start in. Thank you. I'm Judy Wilson, director of sanitation. And yes, we regrettably had a 20 million uh gallons of spillage as a consequence of the storm event. Uh but I simply want to remind you that when we came before you in October to talk about our wet weather preparation, we did say in a 25-year storm, our infrastructure is not equipped to deal with that tremendous amount of water and that we would do the best we can and we did do the very best we could. Uh none of this village was as a consequence of operator error. Uh it was all due to structural deficiencies in the infrastructure itself. And I'm going to have John Cross, our assistant director, go through the data with you. Uh, but before he starts, I just want to also let you know that John and I are going around to every wastewater collection yard and meeting with the people who are hip hip deep in that stuff and asking them to be our eyes and ears uh to record any incidents. And we're going to uh compare that to our capital improvement program, make sure all the pinch points are in the capital improvement program. And if we can move up some of the more difficult problems, we will and we will have that underway and uh as part of our budget process this year. And with that, I'll introduce John Cross, our assistant director. >> Good morning, council members. Uh, as Judy mentioned, uh, this was and and council member Galanter mentioned, it was kind of the mother of all storms that we've seen so far, coming hard on the heels of a series of, uh, totally grounds saturating storms over the last 3 weeks without any drying out time in between. And as we said in October, uh, this type of condition is going to cause problems in both the storm water and sewer systems, which uh, which we found out uh, on Tuesday. We uh conveyed a uh record 1135 million gallons per day to our treatment facilities, all four plants uh on Tuesday. It was by far the highest flow we've ever seen. And um actually I was quite amazed that only 20 million gallons spilled during during the event. Hyperion had a record shattering 870 million gallons per day flow. uh terminal uh the Tilman plant had a also extremely record shattering 195 million gallons per day flow which took a lot of pressure off the NOS downstream through central city and council districts 8 9 and 10. If if Tilman hadn't treated that amount of flow, we would have seen a horrendous amount of spillage taking place in in those locations. So, uh, uh, the $2 billion we spent in beefing up our treatment plant and collection system infrastructure so far is paying off in a big way. We've, um, with the completion of NORS and expansion of Hyperion and Tilman, uh, we've totally eliminated all dry weather overflows. As some of you may recall, in the mid 80s, we were plagued with dry weather overflows in the, uh, um, along the NOS at various locations. That investment has paid off and the next focus over the next 10 years is to spend $750 more million dollar to uh remove these hydraulic choke points that are uh plaguing us throughout the system. We have some charts off to the side that we can show you where the pinch points are and where the uh construction will relieve those choke points. >> Right, we have a video and before we show that, I just want to mention one other thing. it. We do have some very significant projects in the capital improvement program. It will take three, four and five years to build. And uh until that time, I am very interested and I've talked to the Bureau of Engineering uh about finding some interim mitigation measures whether uh we should build some wet weather diversion plants or even in some instances have combined sewer and storm sewer. uh and would we would need regional board approval for that. But in my opinion, it's better to have that type of water in the river than in the streets. It is a public health issue. Uh and so we will be investigating that uh with council members and with regional board and of course we need the technical studies done by the bureau of engineering. I >> I just want to mention I just want to translate something. When you gave your report about the facilities, it was perfectly clear except I'm not sure the impact really hit people. A hydraulic choke point means the pipe is too small. If the if the pipe is I can't do this with the mic. If the pipe is only that big and it ought to be that big, that's a choke point. So, what we're really talking about is putting in new pipes, are we not? >> Do you want to do the the video next? >> We'll show >> show you some video right now that was uh taken along the NOS on Tuesday. And there's a brief clip of the Eagle Rock area taken yesterday showing some residual effects of the storm uh continuing an overflow at that location. So uh let's uh roll the video. >> Now you cite uh Eagle Rock uh as a loca. I think it's significant and Mr. Mr. President, um we have um attempted to address this matter over the past uh couple of years uh in a very serious way. It is confronting us uh now in a manner that um is inescapably clear. The video uh that you will see or that is showing now is very very uh graphic with respect to the impact this has in communities. 20 million gallons of sewage uh in this city anywhere. Uh uh that which we just saw uh was a high school in our city. It happens to be one that is uh well known to uh many of us as Manual Arts High School. um we cannot uh put uh young people at risk. Uh there's approximately 3 million gallons uh in and around that immediate area on February 6 and 7. Uh I just simply want to restate uh that as it relates to both public safety and public health uh we are and those that we represent are at risk. And it is urgent uh that we take this matter seriously and uh begin immediately um to uh direct uh the staff uh to uh come with a short-term plan uh to relieve us of this uh kind of crisis and public health um uh disaster. Uh I simply want to uh say that the planning that we've done uh that would cause a system to be built to be built u over the next 5 years uh is appropriate. Uh but I don't think this issue can wait and I think um we need to renew our directions our directives to staff to look deeper and more critically at the urgent nature of the crisis and come back to us uh uh in a specified uh period of time uh to update us as to what can be done which uh may not have been considered. those uh directives would be um uh sent uh forward to both engineering and um uh sanitation. Uh I don't know how we can um tolerate uh sewage in our streets. Uh uh Mr. President, the impact uh in uh various parts of the cities uh in the city is just simply uh beyond expression. And to the extent that that is the case, I would think all of us would be quite concerned uh to uh alleviate this problem with the greatest degree of immediacy and or urgency. And I would so move. >> Um Mr. Ridley Thomas, why don't we u continue this for two weeks and put it get come back get the staff to come back with an action plan. Uh uh so we so move. >> Okay. >> Don't steal any more money from pollution abatement in the meantime. No, we'll we'll take it out of the airport. >> Now, Mr. Bernson, >> Mr. Goldberg, >> what about >> I just really had a question. We had a uh situation nothing as serious as this uh except to the people it happened to where a uh I guess they call them manhole covers that we saw here was sealed. And what happened as a result of sealing it was that the sewage backed up instead of onto the street into people's homes. So why would we seal a manhole cover? Well, for odor control purposes is is the reason we do that. We've have a an odor hot spot at various locations in the city where the residents virtually demand that we seal those covers to keep the odors under >> I doubt that this neighborhood's one of those. >> Okay. >> Um but when we called that's what we were told. We were told that we that they had sealed it. So now is the city liable for all of that stuff backing up into there? Should I advise them toile >> file a claim? >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh what they also wanted to know was since they don't believe the storms are over >> for this year, are you going to unseal them now or do they expect this to happen every time it rains from now on? >> Take a look at that. >> We will go. >> All right. >> Take a look at >> I'll have my office if you give me a specific person do that because we were shocked that it was sealed. We thought maybe it was a prank or inadvertence and the department says, "No, we did it on purpose." I thought, "hm, I'd much rather f frankly have it in the street than in someone's living room, >> as bad as it might smell in the street." So, we can take care of this. All right. Well, I just long as you were here. >> I thought I might ask whether we did this or not. I think Sammy I I want to sort of put together a couple of uh comments made by Councilwoman Galanter and Councilman Markley Thomas in regards to the long-term solution. A few months ago, you're you're this council approved us going forward with the environmental documentation for the East Central Interceptor sewer, the ESUS project. If the ESUS project was in place, and this is one of the key key reasons why we need the ESUS project, we would have been able to contain all of the sewer within the sewer system. This spill would not have happened. So, uh I think it's to this winner is sort of an example of why the need for that project. Uh and we are moving forward with implementing and putting putting the environmental document together on it. Miss Glenner suggested that Mark Gold, where is Mark Gold? Mark, would you take the center table and if you want to make some comments? You're the executive director of the Hilo Bay, which is ally. >> Um, the El Nino storms have demonstrated the value of sewer infrastructure and upgraded sewage treatment plants. If these if these storms occurred in 1990, easily 100 million gallons or more of raw sewage would have been dumped in the LA River Biona Creek. The Norris project, Tilman expansion, and upgrades at Hyperion greatly mitigated the health and environmental impacts of the February storms. However, the storms demonstrated what happens when infrastructure needs are ignored or postponed. Everyone on council in the department of public works and in the mayor's office knew that the eastern segment of the NOS was in chronic disrepair and was grossly undersized for peak storm flows. It is unacceptable, not to mention illegal to have raw sewage discharges to the streets, storm drains, rivers and the coast. It creates extreme health hazards in the community and to the beachgoers. Also, it creates tremendous liability for the city. The decisions that the city made to postpone expedited funding of the ESUS project in the early 90s directly led to the intolerable conditions that occurred yesterday and the countywide beach closures were still experiencing today. One of the city's responsibilities is to protect public health and welfare. On behalf of Heal the Bay, I urge the city to expedite the ESUS project, to investigate and implement short-term solutions to stop raw sewage spills to city streets, and to enhance the Department of Public Works inflow and infiltration program. The situation at 41st in Arlington and 42nd in Kansas and near Manual Arts High School is intolerable. The tragedy of the situation is that it was preventable if the city had the foresight to go forward on infrastructure improvements with ESUS. Please act quickly to prevent this public health hazard from reoccurring every storm season. One last thing, I know this was a very extreme storm that we had the last few weeks, but I would like to add that LA County sanitation districts, who I'm generally not a fan of, um, if people who know me, had no major spills during this entire situation. So, it can be done. Thank you. >> Thank you, Mark. Uh, Mr. Fur. >> Thank you, Mr. President. I have a couple questions. Uh first question is we know that once sewage can flows across the street that there is residue from that sewage that remains on the street. What are we doing with respect to our streets and with respect to beaches over which the city has any jurisdiction to assure the health of people who once the sewage has superficially appeared to flow by remain to traverse those streets? >> Um the the hydraulic low points in the system are known to us are very well known to us because of past storms. >> Speaking of the mic. Oh, the hydraulics low points in the system are known to known to us because of past storms. So, we know where the spills are going to occur. The Bureau of Sanitation, I used to do this job when I was in the Bureau of Sanitation, sends out crews in anticipation of the storms to those hydraulic low points. What they do is they sandbag they sandbag and divert the the water the the the sewage into the storm drain system as it flows across the street. They'll divert it to the nearest storm drain. While they're doing that, they will they will also chlorinate the the the waste water as it's going by to disinfect it. Now, chlorination is not the >> I got it. But once once they though but but once the water has flowed by that diversion has happened, there's a next day and the next day is there not some residual bacteria and so forth present both on the street and at the beaches. the chlorination would would continue until they're they're they're fairly sure that at least >> No, but do we clean the streets with special chlorinated uh cleansing? >> Our crews clean up after each overflow event. They do not leave the site till the streets of >> to sanitize the street to sanitize the beach. Exactly. >> All right. Second, second question is because of the possibility of LA County being declared a disaster, the declaration of emergency from the federal government, is there the possibility of receiving federal funds to enhance the systems that we have in place? I thought federal emergency funds >> uh when when I was in Orange County in the storms of January 95, uh we were able to recover um financially, for example, all of the extra pumping through the plants for the for the storm water. We made claims to FEMA and we were reimbured. So, we could certainly check into that to see what's possible. >> Who is responsible for submitting such claims? Is it your department? Is it the CLA? Is it the CEO or is it the mayor's office? >> You work through the CEO's office. >> CO's office. >> All right. because I we may that that declaration may be imminent in the next two days from what I understand sometime this week and if that were to occur we should pounce on the opportunity not only to collect that which we may have done on emergency basis but to see if there's some implementation of improvements in the system that we can draw up on federal dollars to effectuate >> that's a good idea and we frankly we've made a lot of improvements in our collection system as a consequence of the uh earthquake we got a lot of FEMA money I know to keep on this in the next couple of days I just made something thank you brother >> all right miss Mr. Kowski, >> the video demonstrated that manhole problem and and it's worse than actually being sealed. Those manhole covers are bolted uh in the Palisades area. We lost a street Palisades Drive. And I wish we had the video because instead of water coming around the edges, the pressure was so great from a storm drain. wasn't a sewer that it not only blew it didn't blow the cover the bolts held. It blew the asphalt in which the co the cover was embedded and the concrete enc casement around the asphalt. So you looked at the street and saw the manhole cover intact with the asphalt around it and the concrete around it and 800 ft of street was lost and it was actually the sole street access into a community. Uh the the city crews were incredible in terms of getting out there, repaving the entire street within a 24-h hour period and providing that access. But I think Councilman Goldberg has brought up a very very valid point that we need to reexamine how we are dealing with those manhole covers. I think there could be a spring activated lock from below where when pressure comes up it it lifts partially and lets water flow out onto the street because the street is supposed to be handling that drainage rather than letting a pent up pressure explode someplace else. So I would like I think the Bure of Engineering to work with Bureau of Sanitation on that because I think bolting those things for protection for letting people in is creating a counterproductive problem that may u erupt someplace else. Yeah, I think we recognize the problem. >> How does how does sealing the manhole covers control odor? >> It's pretty tight the fitting to start with. And why does it control the o odor any better? >> There are there are still small pick holes in the in the covers to uh enable crews to lift them off. We have to seal those up and put a gasket around the edges to keep the odors contained in the pipe. Uh if um if they're bolted down, that's one thing. If the way we seal them, they're supposed to pop when the pressure builds up on the sewer on the storm drains. U council member Mr. Kowsky explained they were bolted down. I'm not clear on why they're bolted down. Sam, do you have a >> uh there's a couple of reasons. One one re one reason because um you you do tend to uh have unauthorized entry into the sewer system if you don't have some sort of locking device. So usually the V bolts are the Allen wrench type of bolts. The other the other reason is you actually have vandalism where manholes have been stolen from the system leaving a hole in the street. So it's also a traffic safety issue too. So we need I think uh Cindy had a good suggestion. We need something which will take care of those issues but still allow the pressure relief. I think that's what we need. >> All right, Mrs. Chick. Yes, I will look for further details when this comes back to us in a few weeks, but there have been several comments here made that um what seems to be regarded as the most essential thing to do to avoid this in the future is to put this ISIS system in place and um and then there were some comments about uh funding etc. So could you just briefly summarize and educate me as to what are the remaining issues before we can go forward with that? Uh I I think I'll sanitation handle the funding issues but in terms of the project issues uh it seems to me we have a a consensus regarding the need for ESUS we everybody knows we need the project the issue to be decided is more the method of installation uh and the two alternatives that are going to be presented to the city council are a deep tunneling alternative uh versus a shallow trenching alternative. Either one of those alternatives if when installed would have taken care of Monday's problem. Okay. So there's not a difference in terms of operations of the project but there are differences of schedule technology >> versus versus community impact of the construction >> and and in terms and in terms of adequate funding is there adequate funding allocated whichever uh method is decided upon? Just as a general statement, in order to fund ESUS, we are going to have to bond the project. We have the authorizations from the city council where we would be within our authorization limit, but we would have to do it through bonding. The exist trying to generate funds through the existing sewer service charge would probably not be adequate on a general basis. I don't know if you want to add. >> That's right. And uh we're assuming that in our capital improvement program, the project is in our CIP. Uh we have funds this year for the environmental process and the significant construction monies were really in uh 992000 and in 20201 and finishing up the final fifth year. So in terms of some of the discussions and memos that have been going around about our bond indebtedness, this has been planned for and is part of uh the total >> That's right. And it's a special fund, so it's not part of the city's limit. Yeah, Mark is correct in saying that it's it's true that back five or six years ago when we were first talking about funding iss that the f the financial situation of the city was a restriction on its schedule. Right now the restriction on the delivery of the project is not is not being affected by financing. It's being affected by what we have to do by law regarding environmental documentation >> and the decisions that you say >> and the decisions that we need to put forward to the policy makers. But funding is adequate and in place. >> That's correct. >> Yes. >> Thank you, >> Mr. Ridley Thomas. >> Uh, Mr. President, members of the council, I trust as a result of this presentation. Uh, and Mr. President, I'm fully aware that we will have a follow-up presentation with an action plan from uh engineering and sanitation, but I think it should be completely uh clear to all who have uh paid attention to this uh discussion that any further delay with respect to the repair that is the overhaul, the correction of the serious problems in this city's infrastructure as it relates to sewer systems is uh tantamount to irresponsibility. any public official uh elected or otherwise who does not get the message uh that uh people's health uh is at risk uh needs to just simply wade through uh what is going on here at 41st in Dalton, at 42nd in uh Kansas, at Arlington and Martin Luther King uh Junior Boulevard uh and the other parts of the city that have uh been subjected to these god-awful conditions of literally millions of gallons of raw sewage. Uh Mr. President, uh uh members of the council, Mrs. Galanter, I thank you for the emergency motion that you introduced. Uh this is the concern that many of us have been raising for the past uh year plus. Uh I trust that we all appreciate that delay is just simply unacceptable. We must move forward in the interest of the health and safety of the constituents of this city directly and indirectly impa impacted. Thank you, Mr. President. >> Miss Gallanter. >> Um I concur. I first of all I want to thank all of you for coming including Mr. Gold who was Dr. Gold sorry who uh uh leads the organization that that really functions as our conscience especially out in the beach areas. Um, I just want to mention a couple of other things that we haven't really touched on here. Mark is absolutely right. Mark Ridley Thomas is absolutely right. We have got to get this system fixed without further delays. It is disruptive and inconvenient when we do the construction. There is no question about it. But we really don't have a choice. I think I'm still the only council member who has seen the inside of a new sewer pipe um when the Norris system was ready to open. But it's very impressive. And the reason I went to see it is that I also saw one of the old ones when the street on top of it fell in as per this diagram we have here. And and believe me, you should all have this experience because it will enable you to tell your constituents with utmost conviction that there is no time to waste in this system. Remember that this is not only carrying sewage from the city of LA, but we're also treating the sewage of a whole bunch of other cities. Culver City, Santa Monica, uh who else? There's like 20 of them, aren't there? 15. There are 15 other cities whose sewage is also going through the system. And incidentally, they do not pay for the upgrade. They pay they pay a treatment thing, but they are they sued when we tried to get them to share in the cost. And they succeeded in blocking um our ability to have them participate in the upgrade, but they still send us their sewage. The other thing I want to mention, so if you start hearing from other cities that it's because of LA's sewage, remind them that most of them are using the same system and not paying for the upgrade. Um, the other thing to keep in mind is that the problem, as we've all seen, is too much water. And let us all be grateful that we have as many low water use toilets as we do because if we were still under with the old water guzzlers, it would have been worse. We have more to do in that retrofit program. We're only, I think, about a third of the way through the city, although we have done many hundreds of thousands of retrofits where uh last last week or the week before, just before the real the mother of all storms, uh Judy Wilson and Dave Freeman from DWP were in my office and we talked about programs we might institute in the future to try to reduce the amount of water going through the sewer system through lowwater use washing machines, for example, and anything else we can think of. None of that would actually have solved this problem because this is water you can't plan for in individual people's homes. But there are many things that are are underway in different stages. None of them uh reduces the need for immediate action here. And I would just ask you to uh if it smells bad for a day or two or if you have to stay out of the water down at the beach for a day or two. I think what we've really seen here is that the city has made significant progress. But despite all of that and despite the dedication of our city employees slogging around out there trying to clean it all up, we still have a lot more to do. So, thank you for coming. Thank the rest of you for listening and don't steal any more money from the pollution abatement fund. >> Mr. Bernson, >> uh I think Ruth made a very good point about some of these neighboring cities that use our system and don't want to pay. Have we gone to the courts and tried to get the courts to require them to do what they required us to do with the uh >> Chris West off is here who has been negotiating with the contract agencies. We have 29 different agencies including districts of Los Angeles County and no we have not let >> you're using all my time. I what I really wanted >> The answer is no. We have not. Um and we're close to Excuse me, please. Okay. >> I have three minutes. I want a few things I want to say. >> Okay. Now, it seems to me that the very court that we signed a consent decree with that ordered us to provide secondary treatment on all of our sewage and improve our system. Why can't not we go to that judge or that court and make