[0:28] (Background Noise) [0:58] (Background Noise) [1:28] (Background Noise) [2:28] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Call to order the city of Cannon Falls city council meeting for Tuesday, January 21st. Uh, call to order, or roll call please. [2:35] Sara Peer: Diane Johnson? Diane Johnson: Here. Sara Peer: Zimmerman? Lisa Zimmerman: Here. Sara Peer: Chad Johnson? Chad Johnson: Here. Sara Peer: Jepson? Ryan Jeppesen: Here. Sara Peer: Nobach? Chris Nobach: Here. Sara Peer: Kronenberger? Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Here. Sara Peer: Montgomery? Sara Peer: Absent. [2:50] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: We'll stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. All: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [3:08] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Okay, can I get a motion to approve tonight's agenda? [3:14] Diane Johnson: So moved. [3:15] Chris Nobach: Second. [3:16] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Yeah, all right. A motion by Diane, a second by Nobach. All those in favor? All: Aye. [3:20] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: All right. Moves us to public input. Public input is intended to afford the public an opportunity to address concerns to the city council. The public input will be no longer than 30 minutes in total length and each speaker will have no more than three minutes to speak. Speakers may address topics relevant to the governance of the city. Speakers must sign up in advance and must provide their name, address, and topic they intend to address. Comments must be on topic, respectful, pertinent to City business, and adhere to the applicable data privacy rules. Any speaker that violates these rules will be asked to sit down and if the speaker refuses to comply they may be removed from the meeting. Speakers shall not address topics that are on the subject of a public hearing. All such comments shall be made during the public hearing. City council will not generally act on issues raised by the public during public input but may choose to schedule consideration of the item on a future agenda. Um, Denise Filler? [4:18] Denise Filler: Here. What do I do? I just come up and—? [4:21] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Okay. [4:22] Denise Filler: Well, this is the first, so bear with me. Sure the cop comes to arrest me already. [Laughter] Make sure the microphone was on. Okay, um, I'm hoping to keep this to five minutes, but I—I said five but I'll—I'll try to do it in three. Um, first, instead of wasting more tax money in court, I would like to suggest a compromise. Number one: race cars can get mufflers to their systems to quiet down the noise. Number two: limit the times in which they drive. And the residents have the right to file an abatement on their—lowering their tax property due to their enjoyment to quiet privacy being compromised. The other thing they have the right to file for is for soundproofing windows and doors around that area. The other thing I want to talk about is the need to control the fair people. Why, or what have they done so bad that you want control of this? I don't understand that. Um, I came here 10 years ago after lots of research; out of 11 county areas, this had the most to offer: affordable homes, a nice layout of the city, and the most polite, well-mannered teenagers that I have ever come in contact with in the 25 years I was a licensed realtor. Uh, now, yeah, your realtors at that time did not work weekends, and now you have five to six companies that work in Cannon Falls. Affordable housing? There's not too much there. So I was going to suggest—I surveyed your land and you have room for 150 tiny homes. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but um, they're affordable and they go for $60,000 to $125,000. And I'm thinking that for single people or elderly people this would be a really good resolution in helping not only build the community but help the community, because for a single person or two young people that would be like a nice step for them to get up to a $400,000 house. Um, and then I had one question left. Um, what does the city plan on doing for food in this area? I mean I'm—I'm thinking like in 30 years, 50 years, if there's no gas and there's electric cars that have been buried, um, we need an area that somebody would be facilitating food for this area. That's—that was my concern. That's it. Quick and simple. Thank you. [7:18] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Okay, that moves us to the consent agenda. Consent agenda items may be adopted under one motion as presented or may be removed for discussion and resolution as Council business. A: Adjust incorrect claims accounting period ending January 16th. B: Meeting minutes for January 7, 2025 city council meeting. C: Approve 2025 fire department officers. D: Approve safety training program with SafeAssure. E: Resolution 2799 accepting a monetary donation of $780 from Matt Amundson to the parks department. F: Approve sewer credit for M. Davidson. G: Approve sewer credit for R. Nolton. H: Resolution 2800 approving a conditional use permit for outdoor sales lot at the Cannon Falls mall. And Item I: Appoint Melissa Sebert to the library board. Is there anything that anybody would like to pull down? [8:30] Diane Johnson: Yes ma'am. Um, H: Conditional use permit for outdoor sales. [8:35] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Okay, so H will become seven or Business C. Okay. Anything—anything else? Okay, with that I'll take a motion to approve the consent agenda minus item H. [8:55] Ryan Jeppesen: So moved. [8:56] Chad Johnson: Second. [8:57] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Motion by Jepson, second by Chad. All in favor? All: Aye. [9:02] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Consent agenda is approved. Uh, moving to Council Business Item A: Responsible governmental unit agreement between the city of Cannon Falls and Randolph Township relating to environmental review. [9:17] Jon Radermacher: Thank you, Chair. Sorry, um, so we do have representatives from, uh, I believe Kimley-Horn who's representing Tract as part of this discussion here tonight to be able to answer any questions about what this—this process is. So, uh, right now the major development that's—that's working is um, what's called an Alternative Urban Areawide Review (AUAR). And because the area right now is located within the township, but there's the intent and an expectation that they will petition and be annexed into the city limits, um, we have to approve a responsible governmental unit agreement so that um, the final authority will rest within the City of Cannon Falls for approving or accepting the AUAR agreement when it's completed. So, um, right now this has been reviewed by our attorney, the Township's attorney, and the um, engineers uh, from those teams. Uh, they find it acceptable. There was an—some changes that came out from what went out in the packet on Friday and which we gave you guys tonight, um, and those will be amended uh, for the packet. Most of the—the changes just occurred in the schedule at the end; the rest of the—the terms were—were pretty much acceptable. So, is there any other questions regarding that? Or Ashley was here to speak if anybody wants to know more about the process. [11:00] Diane Johnson: What has land been—is this to sell the land to the company that then the company will build, or are we selling the land to someone who then will sell the land to someone else to build? [11:14] Jon Radermacher: No. The—the land currently is—was private. So there's a—there's a purchase agreement on that land by the company to buy that and then develop it. So in the process of what they're trying to develop, there's state statutes that require them to uh, conduct this AUAR assessment over the—over the property for—for that use. So that's what we're approving tonight, is that we will—the City will become the responsible government unit to approve that review process. [11:47] Diane Johnson: Okay. [11:48] Jon Radermacher: And another question—if I misspeak, Ashley, please by all means step—step up and—um, and this study I'm assuming costs money? [11:58] Jon Radermacher: It does. [11:59] Diane Johnson: So an—the purchaser would be responsible for funding it then? [12:03] Jon Radermacher: Yes. And then there are consultant costs like attorneys and—and engineers that are—are in this review. So back in December there was a—an escrow agreement that the city approved with Tract that we are utilizing to fund and pay for the cost of those expenses related to this process. [12:28] Diane Johnson: Thank you. And—and so when we get the final report, will it just be uh, you and the city engineer and the township folks that review it? [12:38] Jon Radermacher: No, there's—there's a couple—there's a process for a comment period in which written comments can be submitted over a 30-day window. There will be a public hearing uh, portion of that. So it is—there—there's definitely a parts of the process that are much more open to uh, input from the community as well as other state agencies as well as other interested parties that—that um, you know, want to, you know, make comments on what's being evaluated. So they're—they're looking at, you know, kind of everything and how it could impact based on, you know, the—the what the property is going to be used for. So, you know, what type of environmental factors it's going to have, what the water and wastewater consumption might be, um, you know, different things like that. [13:13] Diane Johnson: Thank you. [13:14] Ashley Payne: I can just add. Um, hi, I'm Ashley Payne from Kimley-Horn. So just a little bit more on that, um... there are track—nope, I'm—I'm from a consulting firm that is working on behalf of Tract to um, prepare the environmental review. So the AUAR—so a little bit more, um, Jon, you had the—the details correct, but there are two public comment periods that all um, that are part of this process. So given the size of the project that they're proposing, it requires the environmental review. So that's a—so it'll go out for a public comment uh, two times. The first one is for um, the scoping document. So essentially it's laying out what will be studied in the environmental review and then also for the City to officially order the environmental review to be complete. So it's really just setting up the stage of the area to be studied, the scenarios that will be studied, so the projects or the potential uses that will go on the property, and then also um, you know, what will actually be covered as part of that environmental review. Um, that goes out for a 30-day public comment period. And as Jon mentioned, that goes out to the state agencies, um, you know, the—the counties, and then also um, the public has an opportunity to comment on that. And then once um, that comment period is complete, the final order will come back to the city council for adoption to officially order the preparation of the AUAR document. That AUAR document will go through the process—will go through another 30-day public comment period sent out to the same agencies. And then once that process is complete, it'll come back to um, the city council for final adoption. So that final adoption is adopting the environmental review and then also the mitigation plan that's required as part of that environmental review document, which essentially is saying if the project moves forward, this is everything that would need to be completed in order to mitigate any environmental impacts. So you'll see this come back a couple of times. What's in front of you tonight is just to um, approve the City of Cannon Falls to be the responsible government unit, or the RGU, for the environmental review document. And I will add additionally that the township is—has it on their agenda, correct? [15:28] Jon Radermacher: I believe tonight or—? [15:29] Ashley Payne: Yep, tonight. It's going in front of uh, the township to approve the um, RGU agreement as well. [15:34] Ryan Jeppesen: I got a quick question. So if those mitigation factors aren't really implemented, say that um, who's at fault? Like is the City responsible for it then, or is it the contractor or the owner of the property? [16:04] Ashley Payne: So it would be in there—it would document who is responsible for that uh, mitigation. And then like a development agreement or something would also lay out what is required okay um, for mitigation. There could be some items that um, through development agreement you know, maybe the City is doing versus the developer, the developer is paying for, or it could be, you know, there's something else that would be required. [16:19] Ryan Jeppesen: Okay. I guess what I'm getting at is if—if the developer slips up, is the City at fault? Or are we on the hook for something? Or is it whatever is developing the property? [16:32] Ashley Payne: Um, it's similar to—the AUAR is similar to an Environmental Assessment Worksheet (EAW), an EIS as well; it's just an Alternate Urban Areawide Review. So essentially it's an EIS-level review, but we're looking at multiple scenarios. So looking at two different projects that could potentially go on that property. [16:54] Ryan Jeppesen: Okay. Or properties—I guess there's a few, there's like five parcels? [16:58] Ashley Payne: Yeah, there are multiple parcels on there but—yep. And there is about a 40-acre um, portion of one parcel that is currently within the City of Cannon Falls; the rest of it is within the township. [17:05] Jon Radermacher: And I will say like, additionally, you touched on the development agreement. That will be a really important moment that will come kind of after the environmental process, um, and that will very much spell out like who's responsible for what. Because there will be components of the project that the City would be involved in because we will need to bring infrastructure to serve the—the site. So there'll be part—portions of that that the City's responsible for. They're—you know, we can recoup some of that—you know, recoup probably as much of that cost as we can um, because we're bringing that specifically for this project. But we want to make sure that, you know, what is happening on that site, what the expectations are, the timelines for—for everything, that those are met through those development agreements. So that'll be the—the teeth at the end to make sure, "Hey, if this isn't met, these are the—that will come that, you know, could happen." [17:59] Ryan Jeppesen: Okay, perfect. [18:01] Diane Johnson: If—if the environmental report would indicate uh, a greater usage of water resources then we feel um, our area is able to provide, uh, what happens then? [18:24] Ashley Payne: So there would need to be alternate mitigation measures identified. So if the project were needing more water than what could be supplied by the City or that could be supported, um, they would need to look at alternate measures and that's something that will be covered in the environmental review and that analysis will be done. [18:49] Diane Johnson: And same with electric? [18:51] Ashley Payne: My understanding is—if it is being built with the goal ultimately, and does Tract actually sell the land then to a—one who will actually build the buildings or do they rent it? [19:07] Ashley Payne: Um, I think it's typically a sale. [19:10] Diane Johnson: Okay. [19:11] Ashley Payne: But for the electric—electric isn't covered under an environmental review. Um, like an electric generating facility is all held through the state um, Public Utilities Commission process. Um, so that's not something that we would address through this environmental review. We'd be looking at more of like land use, um, water, sanitary sewer, you know, wetlands, um, endangered species, cultural resources. So those are all different categories that are covered, including traffic. So traffic analysis will be completed as well. [19:42] Diane Johnson: Okay. Thank you. [19:44] Ashley Payne: Awesome. Thanks. [19:45] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Okay. So, can I get a motion to approve the governmental agreement? [19:53] Diane Johnson: So moved. [19:54] Chris Nobach: Second. [19:55] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Uh, motion by Diane, second by Chris. All in favor? All: Aye. [19:59] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Motion passes. All right. Item B: Endress Cannon Falls LLC variance request. Zach, or—? [20:10] Jon Radermacher: Yeah, so um, I can touch on this too. And we do have Mark Segard here as the representative for the developer on the application for the variance. Um, we did meet after the Planning Commission. Um, before you tonight is the resolution from the Planning Commission. Uh, our process would have been is to, you know, take that decision from the Planning Commission and bring it forward um, as a recommendation to the Council. Um, in conversations with the developer, um, felt that they would pull the variance application. Um, I do um, want to provide Mark some opportunity to answer any additional questions because there were some things that were brought up during the Planning Commission that we didn't have the information for. I think he could provide a little more context to—to what's going on with that development um, and where the request came from um, just to, you know, help the Council better understand what's going on. Um, there was additional narrative I believe that was presented as—as well. Um, there—so if there are any other, you know, questions about that. Uh, I did also shared in—in my update, you know, some conversations that you know about this. Uh, currently the—the nature of the request variance was for to be able to put in gravel driveways because the driveways serving those sites are going to be extremely long. Um, and whether or not the policy side of this is, "Are gravel driveways something that just will not be permitted at all within the city limits, or are there circumstances or areas or, you know, future development that it makes sense?" Um, I guess in my trying to evaluate this and understand the—the situation, why—you know, are paved surfaces for driveways important to the—to the City? I do believe that, you know, certainly within the—the city proper where there is managed storm sewer, um, that—that having a gravel surface could create issues with getting into the storm sewer and causing problems, um, where, you know, we definitely want to have them paved. You know, those driveways are not going to be um, you know, longer than like 30 to 50 feet in most regard. Um, where in this instance those driveways are 300 to potentially even 500 feet. Um, so they are serving a—a much, much different capacity than what most uh, driveways within the city are serving. [22:30] Ryan Jeppesen: I don't really have a problem with gravel, but uh, there was a guy who was speaking at the public input and he said it's the drainage. It all just drains into his ditch because he's surrounded by the other two—other three other areas and they just keep draining into his field. [22:46] Jon Radermacher: And so yeah, so Mark—Mark did have um, additional information that um, he showed us. They do have that planned and mapped out where the—this—the water is going to shed and—and drain to in those areas. Um, I don't know if that's something that—yeah. [23:05] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Would your plan also address the—the future that—because these—it's these four and then it would connect with the other that you guys are planning on talking about building? [23:16] Jon Radermacher: Um, they—there are part of one development, but these four are kind of outliers to that. And then in between them actually is—actually a that at Parkland uh, that would be—to the city? The drainage going to go into the park land and—? [23:35] Mark Segard: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, feel free. [23:44] Jon Radermacher: Yeah, Mark if you could— Zach, can I use this? [24:05] Mark Segard: Okay. Uh, good evening Council. My name is Mark Segard. Um, I'm a consultant for the Endress group who is the developer on this property. Um, he's not able to be here this evening. Um, but uh, you know, for those who aren't familiar, um, almost two years ago we started working on this piece of property. Um, a little over a year ago we received the preliminary plat approval for what you see up on the screen right now. Um, about a year ago we um, went with a final plat um, for what you see that's not shaded out. There's about seven—thanks—seven Villa lots and then eight um, cul-de-sac lots we're calling them. So that's what we've did—plat last year and in 2024. That's the development um, that we did. Now, for to go way back in history, this is the old Sandstone Ridge Development. So our development work this year included basically taking up the remaining Sandstone streets that had failed over the years and then we rebuilt the street in front of those villa homes and also we rebuilt theora and then we're calling um— oh I can't even see it from there—oh, I got it right here—Ridgewood Drive cul-de-sac, yeah. So um, so we did do that development work over the—over the summer and then late in the fall um, the Endress group hired Inspire um, out of the Northfield area to go ahead and build one Villa home and then one um, rambler home on the cul-de-sacs. Those homes were just finished up here late in the year and then they are open now for showings and there also be in the Spring Preview. So um, if you do have time we'd appreciate you swinging by and taking a look at those homes. Um, so that's basically a quick history. Uh, the estate lots down the lower right corner—and I will get to your answers but I just wanted to follow up. So as you can see, the—the property that included—and this was all city property um, for the development—and then you can see there's a area that we call city park and that's actually a ravine slash slope wooded area. Our plan is to do a wooded trail through there which we started working on. Then we have these—this—these areas that are disconnected from the development but still in city property. I had an exhibit in my narrative on that. And then when the County Road 24 was built it even bisected it one more time. So we kind of struggled a little bit and worked with City staff on what's the best use for those areas. And the idea of estate lots um, were um, that—that's what we proceeded with. And through um, the preliminary plat process and then also through some ordinance updates, um, those estate lots were preliminary plat approved and we did, you know, we had to do some me changes with your requirements for septics and well because again water and sewer is a long ways away from this area. So we did all that and then once the preliminary—so getting to where we are today—um, we started working with um, marketing these lots. They're preliminary platted but they're not platted yet, but we're looking for buyers. And um, before we even got going with that it was a long conversation with the County on where the driveways need to go. Um, and we went back and forth with them for several months. Driveways needed to be a certain distance away from the intersection; County really wanted only one driveway to the north, one driveway to the south, and they want to make sure they um, were across from each other. And there's a number of different things. Eventually we work that out and get the driveway permits, mainly because we wanted to start marketing it and to get people in to see them. So that's why we um, rough-graded in those driveways. So now we're starting to market it, and then um, several interested buyers are like, "Well, these are pretty long driveways." We like the rural feel; they're looking around at the other homes in the area that obviously are not part of the city but they're right next door. And they're like, "You know, because City requires pavement," and we basically were telling future buyers, "Yeah, these roads would—or these driveways—need to be paved." That's why we're here. We had several um, possible buyers just questioning what's the need for the driveway to be paved? And I'm looking at it and like um, yeah, driveways in the city off city streets where you got storm sewers and a bunch of um, people living close together and it's nice and neat and for storm water management purposes and just keeping an orderly neighborhood, it's a good idea to pave your driveways. We're out here in a—in the more of the rural area. You actually have to leave the city and go around and then you get to these lots. So um, so it seemed like a reasonable request to run it through um, a variance application to see if these couple lots could have a gravel driveway, or variance not to have paved driveways. Now looking through your variance requirements, you know, obviously the biggest issue is it's costly and to tell a buyer, "Well, you need to pave it just because that's what the rule says." And that's kind of where we are today because um, you can pave it, there's no reason why you can't, it's just, you know, the question we have is you know, why—why would—why—because you—you're in a rural area, you're not having storm water management. You know, I—I basically drove from city of Jordan to Cannon Falls on my way here and most driveways I saw along the way were gravel. And—and actually I grew up out in the country just outside town and my driveway was gravel and seems to work. So I guess the what um, Mr. Rockenbacker mentioned is yeah, we—we don't meet the—the requirement for a variance because I can't really show a hardship. But I guess what we can discuss or talk about, or interested in knowing your thoughts on, is there—is there something that could be done or create something in your ordinance that would allow for a driveway to be gravel under certain conditions? Um, one of the items that we're just throwing around was say the City needed to annex something in and—but they had to jump over or include a bunch of rural acreage lots, would you require those folks to pave their driveway right away? And maybe you wouldn't require them to pave it right away until they went and got a permit and then per your ordinance, well you get a deck permit but you need to bring your lot up to code so you need to pave your driveway to get your deck permit. And I may be making stuff up a little bit, but I've kind of seen how things like that work, especially with septics. So I guess my request for you tonight, or what I'd like to hear a little discussion or your thoughts on is, you know, is—is it reasonable for the city of Cannon Falls, which is a rural town, to somehow allow gravel driveways in certain situations? Because maybe someday you will be annexing in some larger lots and is it—is it—are paved driveways really needed? And then I guess in this situation, you know, I'd—I'd be happy to hear why um, why you thought paved driveways would be needed. Now, I already forgot to answer your question, but I will get back to that. Um, so this—so this is north. North is up. Roeber, I believe, spoke at the Planning Commission. His—his lot or his property is this long skinny one, and he mentioned that he is almost surrounded by city. So on the west side he's all city, south, and then we loop around like that. So what these blue lines represent is actually swales or water drainage. So right now water does just flow around the cul-de-sac through this ravine, comes out here and down there. There's also a lot of water that comes off the field and then into his area here. Um, so that—that's the existing drainage situation. Um, again our estate lots is over here where there's a rather large um, flow of water that comes through here, goes underneath the county road through a rather large culvert. We put a culvert underneath the driveway that flows here and all this water connects and throws—flows to a rather large ravine through this part of the property. So that's kind of the general drainage. On this plan right here we show the um, the—again this is the Roeber property. Um, as we put in the driveway, whether it be gravel or pavement, all this water flows—it's crowned so the water flows left to right, left to right, left to right till it gets to this point right here, and then it flows left to right. And then this part of the cul-de-sac is tipped up a little bit in the middle, so this little bit of the cul-de-sac does flow this way out that way and that way. So basically the water for the cul-de-sac kind of flows through here, this way, that way and that way, and maybe a little bit's going to flow down this swale and out to that property. So it's a long way of saying the driveway really doesn't make a difference in the Roebers' property. Um, we have met with him several times um, and as we develop our next phase—again, here's the Roeber property—all this water that's been flowing off the field and in and down this ravine right here is going to get captured by this pond and then gets rerouted right into this ravine here. So eventually we'll improve his situation. Thank you. But that was actually—happened prior to you starting this development, correct? I mean this has been— [35:05] Mark Segard: Yeah, yeah. The—we didn't change any of the drainage going into Roeber property. And then we've got an open dialogue with them too. I wish you would have kind of called me before... Sandstone, the one that— Sandstone Ridge? Yeah, they set that up um, pretty much. I mean again, I—we did draw this map that showed these are kind of swale lines that kind of pick up drainage areas. This water comes around and then if through this woods right here, if you walk in there, there's a little creek ravine and it does flow out and then back in. But this little ravine that flows through here and here, you know, if you go back to historic documents, that ravine went right through here. You know, historically that water's been flowing through there for a rather long time. So yeah, again. And then we're open to chat with him and stuff. But we—we've—there's a couple little things we've plan to help him out with as we get going and doing some more drainage stuff. And he's got a little ravine or stuff that needs to be—that's been washed away, we'll be moving fill in there for him later on once we get that further down. And we've worked with him on moving his stuff around; he had some stuff a little bit over on the property and we sorted some stuff. All right, so back to gravel driveways. Again, I didn't mean to get too far off the track, but again um, I guess you know, if you read your ordinance, you know, variance—I don't have the hardship here. But I guess the question I do ask is, you know, is this something that you should relook at in your um, your ordinance to allow for driveway in certain cases? Again, this is—we—we are unique and these lots are very unique considering they're almost completely separate from the City except for—it is continuous, but we're going down a ravine or down a hill, down a ravine, and then again, you can't even get to it off of a—a city road. Um, so as you ponder this is, you know, I—I'd like to hear a good reason why they should be paved, and I'm—I'm guessing you would have one, Diane? [37:12] Diane Johnson: Okay. Um, I'm assuming that all four homes are planning to have the cement apron off their garages? [37:22] Mark Segard: Yes. Well, of some sort, correct. I would almost anticipate—again, we're custom home building out here and it's rural lots. You go look around, everyone has a long driveway; they may pave 20 feet in front of their garage just so they have a nice place to park the car. [37:41] Diane Johnson: Correct. And so if they're doing that—um, I mean we didn't let someone else—uh, another person came with the same kind of request in paving the driveways, and we did not. You know, they're—again, out in the country, hardly in town. Um, but ultimately the long-range plan says it will be surrounded by the City. And what we found on other instances, when we let things remain gravel when they're ultimately going to have to be paved, it's future landowners who sometime—who get stuck with that bill. Most of the time they don't even realize that's an obligation. And I don't—I don't think we have any ability to look at realtors and say, "You know, put that in bold print on on the sales contract." I don't know if it's buried somewhere if—even if there's a way to ensure that they have it. But um, having also grown up in the country on a gravel road and knowing people and still visiting people out there quite frankly—with kind of expensive homes that are going to be sitting there, uh, even driving on that short of gravel road is—is going to be dusty. And if one of the two homes says, "I really would want it paved," and the other one says, "Then you pay for it," uh, you know, it doesn't build goodwill and better friendships. But I—you know, it's an ordinance. If we want to go back and revisit that and change the ordinance, that's fine. But at this point, unless we do that, I mean we've already denied one of these requests, I can't imagine where I would be comfortable granting this one. [39:29] Ryan Jeppesen: I guess I'm—I'm just going to kind of back Diane up. I—the same thing. I mean, you admitted there's no hardship here or you can't prove a hardship. Um, I can't imagine—you know, when I wasn't up here when Hardwood Estates went through, but I could just imagine those people throwing their hands up and being super upset 'cause that was a gravel road and then they had to pay for half of it and unexpectedly—it's just—that doesn't make sense to me to say "yes" to you guys and "no" to them. Um, and then Diane also touched on it. I mean, I think long-range City plan is, you know, we're going to grow further in this area and what happens when the next person comes through and looks for a gravel driveway? I mean, I'm—we're going to be telling them the same thing I think. And if our plan is to grow the City and have more homes there, you know, hold them to the same standard as everybody else in the city. So that's where I sit on it. [40:15] Lisa Zimmerman: So what's the plan for—so right now they're allowed to have um—well there isn't city sewer and water there yet, right? [40:30] Jon Radermacher: Right. [40:31] Lisa Zimmerman: They've already been— [40:32] Jon Radermacher: Already been granted—they've already been granted a variance to allow them to have a well and septic on those property—on—on all those parcels. That was— [40:48] Lisa Zimmerman: And then once we did have the infrastructure, would they then be required to hook up? [40:54] Jon Radermacher: And that—yeah. That—we—we said once sewer and water becomes available they have to hook up at that point. Once it—you know, once there is a city line out there, they don't have an option to wait until they sell. [41:09] Diane Johnson: But there again, I don't know how that ever gets conveyed in state contracts. [41:16] Jon Radermacher: So when—in researching this too, I had a conversation with our city engineer about, you know, what is the timeline for water and sewer there? And unless circumstances change and demand changes, that's likely outside of a—you know, closer to the 20-year timeline than it is a 5-to-10-year time—timeframe. Just because of where—where our mains go and the nature of uh, those county roads. I mean, we'd be coming in from a very long ways away to bring in water and sewer. So you'd only want to do that when the demand ne—necessitated it, you know? So when you have some density to—to provide that sewer so you can recoup some of the—you know, those costs for bringing that there. [42:23] Chad Johnson: I don't really have a problem with the gravel and I know that is—the developers up there have had nothing but problems from, you know, Sandstone and on 25. There—there's like clay and you're not going to be able to really do a lot there. Basements always flood; the fields don't take the water. So that's—that's a whole another conversation. But I could sit here for an hour and explain how we're working on that stuff, but yeah. It's just—I don't see a lot of future development out there in the 5-to-10-year plan. Um, I don't see anyone wanting to jump in on it. And so if we've got somebody wants to do it and they just need a gravel driveway, like—give them a gravel driveway. It's a pretty long driveway versus Hardwood Estates; those are really close together. This is a long driveway. [43:05] Ryan Jeppesen: Yeah. And it's on the outskirts—you have to go out of town to get there. [43:10] Jon Radermacher: Yeah, very specifically just to be clear, like, we're not talking about the rest of the Timber Ridge Development, we're only talking about these estate lots that are in that—that far right east corner. [43:24] Ryan Jeppesen: But just to clarify, they're probably going to pave a whole lot of it anyway just because they don't want to eat the dust. So—or park on it. [43:32] Diane Johnson: Yeah. But you know, we're talking—do we really want a million dollar house—? [43:37] Ryan Jeppesen: I would—I mean, either— [43:38] Diane Johnson: I—I—I mean, I would say if we want to revisit the whole thing then look at the ordinance itself and change that. But being we wouldn't grant this variance to the other developer who wanted to—or person who wanted to not pave the driveway and we said, "No, you've got to," I—I find it very hard to not do the same here. [43:58] Jon Radermacher: It's—yeah. And I add some more clarity. Mark and I spoke before the meeting and it is the intention that the variance requests—you would be willing to pull the application for that for— [44:11] Mark Segard: Yeah. Even—not to be considered tonight. [44:14] Jon Radermacher: So you wouldn't have to vote on—on it. They're—they're pulling that as a variance. They're saying we don't—we don't want to move forward with this. So that action item is, I think, moot. Um, it's—we're—we're trying to gauge, I guess, for policy discussion um, for the Council in—in the future. Is there—is there a circumstances in which it makes sense that gravel driveways are allowed in certain portions of the city? [44:42] Lisa Zimmerman: Well, if part of the reason is because of, you know, drainage and whatnot, why—why wouldn't it coincide with whether they're hooked up to City water and sewer? So if you're not hooked—hooked up to City water and sewer like those—like goes hand in hand. When—if and when you are hooked up to City water and sewer, you also have to have a paved driveway. I could—to me that kind of makes sense. [45:18] Ryan Jeppesen: That would be a lot in one year, 'cause they're going to have to pay for their hookups, they're going to have to pay for those lines coming through, and then to add that on top of it? That would be a lot in one year to add on to someone. [45:30] Chris Nobach: So they—not to that one—I just have a hard time speculating the appetite here because I think part of the equation is: what's our city plan? What's our comprehensive plan that hasn't been updated for 20 some years? You know? Um, I think that's part of the equation. I think right now we have a blueprint for how to do variances and one of those things is proving a hardship. They don't have a hardship right now. Variances exist for hardships and unique—super unique scenarios. That's our blueprint right now. That's kind of where I'm sitting. [46:02] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: I don't know—what was the Planning Commission's vote? [46:04] Jon Radermacher: Um, I wasn't there but it was— [46:08] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: It was unanimous to—? [46:09] Jon Radermacher: Okay. [46:11] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: And they're pulling it so we're not even discussing that. I think the only thing they're asking is, "Is there any room in the future that where that does make sense that we do allow—is there any exception that we would allow?" [46:25] Lisa Zimmerman: I agree. I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to hook up to city sewer and water and pave a 500-foot driveway all in the same time. But if they wanted to—I mean, I could—all I'm saying is that I could see that making sense, that that would be a scenario where I would think that would be acceptable. But again, that would be changing our ordinance, right? [46:58] Jon Radermacher: Yes. [47:00] Diane Johnson: Yeah. And I—and I there again, having been raised on the gravel road, it's—it's not just—and I certainly agree with Lisa in terms of the cost, but gravel roads are nasty when you drive a car down. I mean, that dust coats everything in sight unless you treat it with a chloride or whatever. This is a gravel driveway, so you don't have people driving by you; it's just you coming in and out. But—but I—I've driven my road down gravel driveways and by the time you're done your car is covered with gravel, right? So I guess the question is, does that make sense to make that a requirement for that extra comfort of being on a paved surface? That's kind of what the point I wanted to make. [48:19] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Yeah. And your question—I think it's a good point to ask Jon: who reviews this or looks at the ordinance and decides whether we're being too picky or not picky enough, or—? [48:32] Jon Radermacher: That would be policy of the Council. Yeah, it's—that's—that's the Council. And and there—there comes times where ordinances are drafted, developed, they can evolve. Uh, you know, and that's I guess the point of this discussion tonight was: is there appetite to even look at this? Or is it just "No, let's stick with what we have. This is the direction that we—you know, this is the ordinance that was passed, it's working for us, it's going to—you as a Council feel it's going to continue to work for you"? You know, and we won't even worry about bringing it back. Or if there's, "Okay, I do see some possibility for discussing this and finding a way to—to have that conversation and develop that policy." We, you know, we can work on bringing that back to the Council at a—you know, for further discussion. [49:03] Mark Segard: So I mean I would—again, we officially will pull it, but I would appreciate if you—I don't know if you have workshops or Council workshops—if it would be a topic for that. We don't need to decide obviously tonight, but... [49:15] Jon Radermacher: Yeah. And I think in other process to here since we do have Planning Commission, like to have them review an ordinance change like this in advance and provide those recommendations as well. So there—you know, that might just be another step in the process of which, you know, before that would be there. But as I said, if the Council had no interest in seeing a gravel driveway anywhere in the city limits, then you know, we can end that conversation. But if it's something that we could bring—if there is a possibility for it under certain—certain circumstances and they—you know, make sense for future growth and development, or they make sense in terms of, "Hey, doesn't have connected water and sewer right now, at the point in which it does," you know, that would be the time and make it conform with all the other city lots that are connected water and sewer with paved driveways. [49:54] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: All right. All right, thank you. [50:00] Mark Segard: Okay. [50:02] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Council Business Item C: Resolution 2800 approving a conditional use permit for an outdoor sales lot at the Cannon Falls mall. [50:11] Diane Johnson: And I can just answer any questions you—you have, since I know you know about it. But I was—when it was brought to Planning Commission, I—I hadn't actually gone out to the mall and looked, and my bad on that. Um, it appears that the storage units are all sitting out there and a whole another set of them is sitting between um, the bank and Triangle Auto, and all of them are on—on grass. Um, and I—because obviously the zoning Planning Commission recommended that it'd be a—you know, that they'd be placed on a paved lot. And you look at the properties where they're now sitting and neither one of them is paved. And I'm not really sure that paving them is really a good option. But um, I guess—and I asked Jon too—I mean, if they're actually putting them there to sell, shouldn't the actual company selling them like have a business license to do that? Or—I'm just very confused about it. [51:28] Jon Radermacher: Yeah, so I'll address—I did look into the business license question after that. So our ordinances do prescribe for business licenses for specific things. So um, alcohol I believe, tobacco, massage, uh, refuse haulers—there's—but outdoor sales like this were not a part of that. Peddlers, solicitors, and uh, licenses were—um, those were—those were the ones that we have prescribed license fees and applications uh, for those things. So the rest of it, you know, if it is a sales thing, um, they should be licensed—but or at least apply for that at the state level. I mean, if there's—if that applies if it's a business, um, so get those filings in order at the state. Um, but it's not something that in this instance I believe the City would be licensing. [52:15] Diane Johnson: Did the other set ask for permit? The—the ones that are between the bank and Triangle Auto? [52:20] Jon Radermacher: I think they're all the same owner are they not? [52:25] Jon Radermacher: Different? I believe it's a different owner, yeah. And I'm not sure there was probably already—I mean, at least when I've worked here, I don't think—they might have been existing. But I mean, they're—they're kind of cute looking and they're really not—not ugly or you know, offensive in any way. It's just, you know, if we make the one do something, there again isn't fair. Make one do something that the other one doesn't have to. I wish they hadn't applied at all and I'd never seen them. But that was—that was the only reason I brought it down was just questions. [53:14] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Okay. Anybody else have any questions about it? Can I get a motion to— [Music] —approve? [53:45] Lisa Zimmerman: So moved. [53:46] Chris Nobach: Second. [53:47] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: A motion by Lisa and second by Chris to approve the conditional use permit. All in favor? All: Aye. [53:53] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Motion passes. Okay. Moving to um, reports. Mayor's not here. Did anybody—? No. Okay. Um, EDA? [54:12] Laura Kronenberger: I don't have much of a voice so I'll see how far I get. Um, EDA—um, we sold—we closed on a couple more lots last week. Um, and then we'll be working on our strategic goals for '25 and the next five-year outlook um, at our February meeting. Um, and we're also um, will be moving forward with our next phase um, meeting with WHKS in March. So, that's it. [54:55] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Okay, thank you. Um, the Public Works and Parkboard? Um, I can answer that because you were there, right? Yeah, okay. Um, most of what we— it was actually a pretty brief meeting. Most of what we talked about is on the consent agenda. Um, did you have any, Jed? I mean I'll go around to you anyway but—? [55:10] Jed Petersen: Okay. [55:12] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Um, finance committee? Um, we did not meet. This is March 10th—is it really not meeting until March 10th? Go—go up under reports. Oh, good gravy. Library board? [55:25] Lisa Zimmerman: Um, I was there and I was not—I was absent, sorry. But you were out of time? [55:34] Lisa Zimmerman: Yeah. Um, and—and just being there were three meetings scheduled on on that Monday. Library vote— uh, Library board has chosen to move their meetings to the fourth Monday, so that will not prevent— uh, be a conflict anymore. So we thank them for that. [55:54] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Okay. And the Planning Commission—both of those items were on the agenda. Okay, Mr. Chief McCormick? [56:01] Jeff McCormick: Just want to remind— excuse me—just want to remind people that uh, while these uh, really cold temperatures are going on, we aren't getting any snow but it is going to warm up a little bit and they're predicting some snow. So please get your vehicles off uh, when it does snow. Public Works uh, needs them out of the way so they can come in and plow curb-to-curb without uh, having to slow down and go around other vehicles that are parked. Uh, we try to avoid having to tow them but we will. And so their help in uh, ensuring the streets are free of the vehicles so that that uh, snow removal can be done is really needed. That's all I got. Thank you. [56:45] Jon Radermacher: Sarah? [56:46] Sara Peer: No. [56:47] Jon Radermacher: Thank you. Um, just to touch on Finance Committee, it's not the next one—is scheduled for March because I know there's a conflict on its normal scheduled date where I'm out of town. Okay. Um, so if we do need a special meeting, we can—we can call for that um, at a—at a later time and post for it accordingly. Um, then I just want to inform you that uh, still there's the elected officials training. We did get Chad registered for that. If you're interested, uh, the cohort in Plymouth is um, February 21st and 22nd. Um, I do believe I have two attending with me to the um, Southeastern uh, Minnesota League of Municipalities uh, next Thursday down in Kasson. Um, the Council Retreat—they talked about that at the last meeting. Like uh, based on the schedule, the Mayor I know is—has a conflict at the end of January, so that's going to be pushed out until later in February. We'll find a date, but um, look for uh, more information to come in my updates like I—I shared this last week and if you know, you share some of that—that feedback, it'll help kind of expedite that process. And then next week I'm going to an EMS Workshop in St. Paul, that annual meeting as I mentioned. And then there's an MCMA—so that's Minnesota City County Managers Workshop that's in uh, St. Paul on Friday. And then uh, just because uh, I know it was shared with Council today, there was a message that went out and we've had residents talking to us about the—the swans that are in the park. Um, just making sure that people are aware they are federally permitted. When we acquired the swans we did get the proper permits to—to have them. Um, the DNR was on site last year—I know Jed's—Jed's given me a great deal of information on this and he's, you know, by far knows more, but I wanted to share, you know, that you know, I'm really appreciative of all the work that they have been doing to care for those animals. The DNR was out on site last year and inspected the area. Um, they found it acceptable for—for their standards, that we were in compliance with all of that. We had another individual um, with an agency that um, asked us to do a little—a little bit more. So that's why we've installed a um, shelter with uh, straw bedding there and then added or changed a different food that's more waterfowl specific. So that has been uh, now taken care of for those. And you know, as bitter cold as it had been, the water there was completely ice free, um, you know, was full of waterfowl today. I think it is, in terms of Minnesota and in conditions like this, it's probably one of the best places that they could probably reside. So, so that's the update on that. [59:15] Jon Radermacher: Okay, thank you. Laura, anything other than EDA? [59:19] Laura Kronenberger: No. [59:20] Jon Radermacher: Zach? Jed? [59:40] Jed Petersen: Um, next week we are planning to burn the brush piles. We would prefer there be some snow on the ground, but it's not looking—um, we're hoping for a little bit of snow, but we will work with Fire Department to—to make sure that we have a controlled burn. Um, we'll probably start it next—next Monday. So just give everybody heads up that there's going to be a little smoke in the air. [1:00:00] Jon Radermacher: Diane? [1:00:02] Diane Johnson: No. [1:00:03] Jon Radermacher: Lisa? [1:00:04] Lisa Zimmerman: No. [1:00:05] Jon Radermacher: Chad? [1:00:06] Chad Johnson: Glad to hear the swans are okay. [1:00:08] Jon Radermacher: Yep. Ryan? [1:00:10] Ryan Jeppesen: No. [1:00:11] Jon Radermacher: Chris? [1:00:12] Chris Nobach: Uh, just one thing. I'm just going to touch on it because I think Maggie would if she was here, but I did see that she's putting some stuff out there for—is she advertising it as Cabin Fever Days on Facebook? But it is alumni tournament and stuff like that. So there is some stuff going on around town this weekend, Saturday, maybe even Friday night too. So just so people are aware of that. That's it. [1:00:36] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Okay. And I don't have anything, so with that I'll take a motion to adjourn. [1:00:40] Diane Johnson: Move. [1:00:41] Ryan Jeppesen: Second. [1:00:42] Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Motion by Diane, second by Ryan. All those in favor? All: Aye. Acting Mayor Laura Kronenberger: Motion carries. Meeting adjourned.