Mayor Monkey >> here. >> Thank you. I have a motion to adopt the agenda please. >> So moved. >> So move. Council member Woods. >> Second. >> Second. Call Council Member McKenzie. All those in favor say I. >> I. >> I. Thank you very much. Topics. >> Thank you, Mayor. We got one topic on uh track for tonight. Um we are going to be addressing code enforcement again. Um so good night to ask any questions you guys might have whether or not it's um you know procedure, logistics, things like that. Um and I will turn that over to Fire Chief Minger. >> Hello Mayor and council members. um put together a short PowerPoint presentation just to uh kind of help guide our conversation tonight. Um some of what we'll do is review uh the 2025 code compliance numbers, what we've uh done so far this year um and talk about our proactive inspections and problems we encounter uh with getting violations completed. um changes to the code that can help us and some legal options when progress has not been achieved. And I appreciate uh Jack, our city attorney, uh coming to help uh along the way, answer any questions that I may not be able to. But uh with that, we'll get started. At any point you have questions for me, feel free to ask away. Make sure I'm on the Yeah, I feel like we missed a page. Okay, so co- compliance numbers to date. So, these code violations that are going to be listed on this page are ones that basically are entered in by staff um here. So they um predominantly are inspections that um they may see or uh encounter throughout the pro uh active enforcement. Um but as you can see the majority of what's being dealt with on this list has been related to tall grass and weeds. Um vehicles parking in the front yard are basically what we we deal with. We don't deal with on street parking. We work with PD on that. So, if we do get a complaint for on street stuff, we'll work with um PD on turning it over to them or letting them know. Uh garbage and debris cleanup, uh 18 of those. Property maintenance, that could probably be exterior property or um even property related to the the home as well. >> Uh >> hit the button. Sorry. Most of the property maintenance ones, uh, I will usually use that for a maybe a couple different things. So, if I roll to a property and they've got a vehicle parked in the front yard, trash all over the yard, tall grass, it's kind of an overall property maintenance issue. And then I'll go in and add the different violations that I'm seeing. Sometimes it's just easier to do that rather than three different >> Sure. separate. >> All right. Uh snow removal during uh the winter and that's just from January on 33 of those. Um tree issues, even though there's 15 listed, there's probably been more of those as conversations that we've had um throughout the year. And that's something that um you know Jack and I have talked about and city manager Frandle as well as you know things have changed over the past few years. It used to be where tree issues were far and few in between uh to be an issue for us. Um but with the um ashbor emerald ashbor it's created um a big problem uh throughout the entire city for um our our residents and primarily what we have been doing has been notifying um the property owners of of dead and diseased trees. one that we have complaints or concerns with their neighbors or somebody else that it could be affecting their neighbors property. Um we're not necessarily going out proactively looking for all the dead and diseased trees throughout the city, but if we do see them, we let them know. But it's also most recently come to um you know a little bit later we'll talk about abatements and and issues but um as it relates to to trees but um that's an issue in the past that we didn't do a whole lot of and potentially where we're at now because of the emerald ashbor we may have to change that um thought process a little bit and deal with those um four of those others that include um depositing materials on the street. Um 20 unauthorized burns. So that those could be anywhere from they're just burning outside the hours. They may have a correct recreational fire, but they're outside the hours or they're illegally burning uh things during that time as well. And then three animal complaint type issues. We also have uh a separate area within open gov that allows our residents to submit um their compl complaints uh directly in into open gov. Uh we had 53 of those. 24 of those were related to garbage. Uh 22 um were kind of across the board. They could have been sidewalk obstruction, broken window, construction, trailers, junk in the yard, car parts, illegal dumping, etc. And seven of those, they did not click on the problem. They usually left our concerns in the notes where we just had to read through. And once we once we do that as well, um we have an opportunity to um reply back to them through the open go process. But I think McKenzie has found a lot of times people just make the complaint and and kind of move on from there. So, I know in the spring we talked about starting and doing more proactive inspections, even though while we're out in the streets, no matter what, if we see something, we were taking care of it. But we've started um a program of just basically picking a block or two um that we wanted to focus on um maybe once every couple of weeks and just go through that area and specifically look for any major concerns and just kind of um mark it on a map to try and get through some areas proactively. Um, but again, we have staff, whether it's police, public works, fire, who whatever. If they see something, say something and let us know. Um, or let McKenzie know so we can get the process started uh and keep moving forward. The time frame to correct a violation, um, it it's dependent upon what's what type of violation we have going on. uh if something's going on that we can stop immediately. Like if we know somebody's actively dumping in the street or dumping in the right way or plowing in the street or blowing in the street or we see that uh we try to uh get out there right away and and communicate that with them and um uh ask them to stop doing that. um when we're sending out notices or talking to them uh depending on the issue, you know, garbage issues and tall grass and weeds, we try to get those dealt with uh within a fair fairly quicker time frame, 3 to 5 days versus some things that may take a little bit longer. Um whether it's 5 to 10 days for the yard maintenance or parking in the yard or a trailer parking issue. um exterior home property maintenance issues, 10 to 15 days, 15 to 30 days potentially a tree removal. And that could even uh extend longer depending on, you know, if they're unable to get somebody out there or the cost of it and unable to deal with it. Um but and that's where kind of on the tree removal piece again getting to the uh abatement process which we'll uh talk about later. Uh but pretty much tried to base them on severity of of the issues and how bad they are and how they're affecting the neighbors. Um and definitely a request from the property owner to have more time can be granted uh when warranted. You know, when there's time, you know, sometimes they could need more time for completing something and if they're slowly progressing on something and making progress, we'll work with them on that. Um but definitely um if we have a severe garbage issue or something that needs to be dealt with right away, we're going to expect that to be dealt with right away as well. So what do we do when um progress has not been achieved? Um, and that becomes the the difficult thing. you know, it it starts to create um take our inspectors a lot of time or McKenzie a lot of time to conduct multiple inspections or continue to make contact with them, have conversations with them, emails, whatever that may be to try to help, you know, enforce this uh violation to get resolved. Um and we spend a lot of time uh doing that. Um another issue is drafting the summary abatement order that will allow public works and us or other city staff to go in and complete to work depending on what it is. If it's mowing the grass or picking up the garbage, whatever that may be. So the summary abatement order process basically um we we use it in extreme situations when no progress has been made um and the city has the resources to handle that. So example you know a vacant property uh garbage and debris to be picked up andor needs mowing or the snow removal on neglected sidewalks. Um, basically McKenzie, the code compliance officer, works directly with the public works department on scheduling that. Uh, if if we issue the nuisance and um keep track of the time, the charges will um include the cost of the correction, inspection, travel time, equipment, etc. And the rate is $240 an hour plus expenses for the abatement. Um, this year so far we've sent out four abatement notices. Um, but we only had to uh have public works do the cleanup on one of those. And again, when that's done McKenzie's uh working with public works to make sure that they have the right people and equipment out there. And then she's going out there um basically photographing it before and afterwards just to help document what's being done and keeping track of the time and basically creating a list of people and equipment that's going to be then given to finance to create an invoice for billing that's going to give to the property owner. bill the property owner. If the property owner doesn't pay, it will then eventually get to um being moved to their property taxes to re get the payment, which most of the time that's what happens or at least has happened in the past. um talk a little bit about the the tree issue and um the abatement process. So, like I was saying earlier, in my 20 plus years here, there has only been once or twice that we've done or had an abatement order for removing of a tree. Um but as we continue, you know, down this road with the amount of emerald ash borers out there, um and the amount of problems that we see or that are being directed toward us towards us, this may be an issue that we have to uh address a little bit more. And we already have one of those. I should say one of the four abatements that were sent out this year is most recently a tree abatement as well. And it's on private property obviously, but it also is has created many problems. Um and in this case um for the tree abatement um it we had a contractor come out to give us a quote on it because it also required a crane because the tree was over the house and the amount of work to be done was was pretty intense and um a much more not that our public works couldn't handle it but it it was probably just be a better thing to to contract act that out and let them handle it for that situation. Um but again, seeing that as a potential issue um in the future that we're going to potentially have to do for property owners. Um and I I say that with reluctance. I mean, I don't like um that we have to go on somebody's property to to do that, but if it's also creating a hazard to the for a neighbor or someone that could be severe damage to their house or cause injury, that's something we have to kind of look at. So, that's new to us in in that aspect of things. Um, when is legal intervention needed? Well, when no progress has been made but or an area that couldn't be covered by the abatement um summary abatement order. So, if we didn't have something that we could necessarily do, typically these are the more severe cases. Uh, we haven't had one for a year or two that we've had to have um legal help us out. the the previous one was a severe case um that we had legal on um or and they were just refusing uh to make corrections and because of the um amount of items that were on the exterior property that we believed were garbage and debris that needed to be cleaned up. We wanted that order from um the court to tell us what we could do and and kind of guide us through that process. Keeps jumping at me. Uh citation is also another um possibility. However, in order for us to currently do a citation, we have to get help from the police department and their program to write the citation. So, we need one of their supervisors to write the citation, which would go through their attorney that they use for uh those types of citations. It's not something that is going through um our city attorney in Campbell Kenson. Um but again, the time frame for that could be two to six months. Um, and maybe Jack, you could I know Brian and I were talking a little bit about this um earlier, a citation as it relates to um necessarily if they would have the option of paying something right away or if they have to go before the court to explain themselves. >> Yeah, of course. Uh it can depend a little bit on exactly how the citation is like what they get cited for. Um generally speaking though for a city code citation violation usually that is going to be what's called a payable offense which means they will be issued a citation. They can either you know pay the amount or they have to go to court. Uh, and so, you know, sometimes you get people who either pay the fine and don't do anything about it. Uh, or who just kind of blow off the whole process. Uh, and it's it's usually a low-level enough offense that it takes a really long time for it to escalate to the point where we're, you know, getting a bench warrant and, you know, sending the the police out there for them. So, it >> so in turn, you know, we could issue this citation. Um and necessarily we wouldn't have resolution to the problem immediately as well. And the because it's a you know it's a citation. It's a technically it's a misdemeanor prosecution through the the criminal system. Um it also necessarily means that pretty much the only thing we can ask the court for is a fine. Um and so there's not a lot of ongoing court involvement to resolve the underlying issue. It was just sort of, you know, was there a problem on this day? If yes, check box, pay fine. >> So, what happens in a dangerous situation? You can't just pay a fine and then just leave a dangerous situation alone. >> Uh, how would that work? >> Well, again, I think I guess it depends a little bit on what you mean by um dangerous situation. I mean, if it's like an immediate um you know, if it's a you know, a dog that has attacked someone or is is running loose or something like that, that's something where the police department could step in, you know, sort of immediately. Um, right? There's an ongoing situation if it's sort of just a a hazard that's hanging there, right? You know, a a tree that has partially but not fully fallen over that we know is going to, you know, come down on a public street or something. Um, again, we're not usually turning to a citation for that. Usually, we'd looked for some other, you know, tool in the toolkit. >> Yeah. >> Um, for the tree example, we do have a st a process in our ordinance where we would we would just go take care of it to prevent that from hurting anybody. >> Yeah. And then sort of sort out the repayment after the fact. >> Yeah. Sure. Um, so if there's an if there's a a current immediate threat to health and safety, usually usually the re uh the remedy for that is the city goes and fixes it and then is after the fact looking to sort of pin the cost on a, you know, a property owner or a driver or a dog owner or whoever is, you know, created that. >> Sure. >> But that's open for interpretation. Somebody might say that tree is going to fall and the other one say it's fine. So I mean that's where it gets to be pretty difficult to >> Yes. And so that's um yeah there's sometimes it's like you look at it and it's oh no that's an immediate um I we had a situation a year and a half ago or so I think where there was someone had put a house on stilts and removed the foundation to replace it and then the the you know the stilts or whatever the the jacks of the house was on collapsed >> and so the whole house was teetering at a you know pretty good angle to fall into the hole. that one where we say, "Okay, now that's a pretty immediate threat. We can we can act pretty quick on that one." With something where it's sort of a a less immediate right now, you know, the tree is not fallen over, but it's leaning more than we want to see. Usually, we're going to have there's going to have to be some kind degree of process on that. Um, we have some administrative um sort of abatement order, code provisions that we can go through. If those aren't being listened to, usually then we're looking at trying to get some kind of an injunction from the court, which is the most powerful tool in the toolkit. Um because we can get a judge involved. We can get a court order for whatever needs to happen. Um the for the backing of that is up to and including contempt of court, which is where they go to jail and also pay our lawyers fees. Um, but it takes the longest and the most upfront investment to get there. And so that's kind of the trade-off on something like that. >> One thing that we have an advantage of is we have a forestry department. So we have a professional forester that works for the city. So a little more weight behind that when they say that is a dangerous tree. So >> yeah, and we've definitely have have utilized our our our forester as well. And like Jack was saying, um the process that we've talked about recently for those um utilizing um his knowledge to to help us out with those. Um and yeah, we did learn in those situations if we have something that's an emergency or deemed emergency that we're going to go in and deal with it along with the summary abatement process. Um, also learning that if we do um end up having to abate something uh like a tree or anything else that where the cost of it would be over $5,000 to this um to get it completed. if it's over $5,000, I have to bring that um to you for approval um um to get that um done just because it's you're basic basically the code is telling us anything up to $5,000 go ahead and do but if it's over we need council approval to go go ahead and do that. I should also mention that um with our summary abatements all of them have an appeal process where they can uh request an appeal either from us or co- compliance or or the city manager or even come before city council as well >> if there something's being escalated you know as far as um maybe something on the property that needs to be cleaned up and things are does code enforcement tell them that it's working its way through the system because I know people call then the next day they call and the next day they call until >> yeah way you can tell them or you're not allowed to say that >> that's the difficult difficult thing you know we we we had to do that before with so the the second one on this list is talking about the summary judgement order through Campbell Kudson that we've used um against the the property owner and that can that can take a long time but in the end um we were able to get a lot done with that. But during that time, we did have uh neighbors um you know, approach us, either call us or even come in and want to know what's going on. And that's all we really said is that you know, honestly is it's going through the court process. >> You're allowed to say that much. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And that's >> I'm wondering if it's just >> that's basically we're just waiting >> for our time. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Uh I guess one other issue that we run into with these sometimes for the kind of the city abasement abatement process is we have legal authority to address hazards to public health and safety. And sometimes there are issues about what is a public safety threat as oo you know if if the house if the tree is going to fall over the street that's a public safety threat. What if it's just going to fall on their own house? is that still a public safety threat? Um, and so that that's usually where we might, you know, sometimes where it gets a little trickier like that where we might have to, you know, not be quite as bullish on the administrative action and, you know, go talk to a judge about that first. Um, where there's some some question about our authority to act there >> because any tree that would drop on a person's house, but that next limb could hit the next property's owner. Then you got a major issue because the tree property that's on, he's going to pay for that next homeowner's pro damage. >> Yes. But that's in some ways that's still a you know that's a private dispute between neighbors >> neighbors, right? >> And so you know we're we're looking at what's the you know and like what's the size of right? this is it big enough that we're worried it's going to hit the one property owner's house but we're going to damage the gas lines or something you know that's a more of a public threat. So there's it gets very messy very quickly. Um and because one of the other things is we don't want to be you know acting as the law firm for the neighbor right if they just really don't like that the tree is over the property line or something you know that's a between them concern. And so we, you know, we try not to be involving ourselves in those kinds of disputes. >> But on a civic matter with two homeowners, one homeowner does have the right to trim back a limb that is hanging over his property up to the property line and or to the base of the tree on the other property. Just make sure it's not going to damage the tree. There's yeah there's some >> so in that situation I mean and and we've had this happen a lot and I've seen previous cases on this. So typically in this situation, what we tell again the property owners do to do is is to communicate with their neighbors and ask them to >> either trim it back for them because if it's your tree and it's into their property, >> it would be best >> they are responsible. >> Yeah. But if I as a neighbor trim your tree and there's a right way and a wrong way for doing it and if you trimmed an oak the wrong way at the wrong time and cause it to potentially uh die now you're creating another uh h problem for yourself. Yeah. >> So, we try to educate people a little bit about that and say, "Hey, you know, talk to them, reach out to them, e even, you know, potentially even, you know, document it to an extent of write a a letter and and and ask them to do it. But yeah, if that tree branch is rubbing into your roof or your siding or something and it needs to be done, we we understand that, but we also try to educate them to >> work with their neighbors, but more and more people don't want to do that. They want to call the city and have the city do it like explaining and you know we don't want to get involved in that. One one other thing that makes trees a particular minefield is if you are held liable for damage to someone else's tree you're held liable for three times the value of the damage. Um, and there's just a statute about that to prevent people from cutting. You know, >> the classic scenario, of course, is you you walk over and cut your neighbor's tree down because it's, you know, dropping acorns in your pool or whatever. Um, and so the the statute is meant to discourage that, but it does mean that, you know, if you go to self-help and you trim it back to, you know, the property line or to what you think is the property line, um, or if you end up actually doing damage to the overall health of the tree, it can end up being really expensive. So basically, a homeowner should then contact our city and say, "How do I go about doing this for my safety and the neighbors safety and the treere's health?" Because well, with our arborist here, he would be able to give them a correct way to trim everything back. >> Not necess >> we probably so number one recommendation is you should talk to your neighbor, >> right? Uh number two recommendation is if that's not working and you are interested in pursuing a you know a self-help trim to the property line number one you should be very certain where the property line is and number two you should probably hire you know an arborist >> but that would not necessarily be a service that the city would be providing that would be >> yeah no but our city guy would be able to give them a recommendation through a letter or whatever you know >> not necessarily I mean know a um having an advertisement like that through the city, but there there's lots of ser tree services around, >> right? No, I understand that. Yeah. >> And we can't play favorites with anybody. >> No, no, no, no. I'm not No, no. I'm not I wasn't mean by that. >> Yeah. And I don't think you want to put the city in the middle. >> No, no, I wouldn't. No, no, no. Okay. No, I I wasn't doing that. So, >> yeah. Um, so the citation process and then the summary judgement order as we talking about are basically the the two options really through legal to deal with a lot of code compliance issues or at least those have the two that I've used. Um, but again um those can take uh several months and um sometimes you get the goal accomplished uh sometimes you you don't. Um that's why we try to just continue on the conversation with people and try to talk to them and and get that completed before uh going any further. But at some point usually we know when we're not getting that process completed too and need to go that route. uh talk a little bit about uh the good and the bad and what works. And we've we've done that a little bit, but um a lot of our property owners um you know, a lot of times don't know that there is an ordinance that requires them to maintain something. So, we'll take uh that time to you know, help educate them and advise them over those situations and to let them know what needs to be done to to make it right. Um, some property owners who don't comply with our requests, a lot of times it can be they're just pushing back and waiting to see how hard we're going to push them to, um, get things completed or they don't have the resources, uh, the knowhow, the money, uh, to fix the problem. And these are the ones that reoccur um time and time again if they do get something completed. U potentially we could be dealing with them uh again in the future. Um but again constant communication and inspections typically motivate property owners to comply. Um, but we spend the majority of our time with those who don't follow our requirements. I mean, we basically have, you know, well over 200 um code compliance issues that they've dealt with, she's dealt with so far, but I I would venture to guess that um you know, a good probably 25% of them takes up the majority of her time, but because they're not following along and create the most work by conducting inspections, calls emails following up with uh code, talking to legal, a lot of those things where it just continues on instead of having a resolution from the property owner on getting things taken care of. Do we have uh anything in the ordinances that say how many pieces of equipment, cars, boats, motor vehicles, whatever on their property? Is there a code of how much they can actually have? um >> looks like a >> the the quick answer is yes, but it it als it also breaks it out, you know. So, your driveway, your parking area, >> you can have as many vehicles on your driveway and parking area as long as it's there are issues. You know, maybe it it could be you could be on a street that has a sidewalk. Well, you're not supposed to be parking your vehicle on your driveway if it's blocking the sidewalk. >> That's exactly right. Yeah. >> So, we don't necessarily go by you're a single family home and you can have four cars in your driveway. There's not an arbitrary number. It's based upon um basically the size of of your parking area, driveway, and the the vehicles that you have. as it relates to other things um in in the yard uh trailers and sort. I know that's changed over the years. What's your take on on that that you've seen for trailers? >> Um just that uh trailers need to be parked on a driveway surface. >> So they're no longer allowed in the yard. >> Correct. No longer allowed in the yard. Um >> they need a hard surface of some type. Correct. Uh the the brick, the asphalts or concrete. >> About the uh ones left out on the streets for months and months at a time. What are we going to do about that? What or what can we do about that? >> Street parking is going to be PD, >> huh? Street parking. >> Parking is a police department type of thing. But I would say I mean it has to circle back somehow to the 12-hour parking rule to be enforced and that's a difficult thing I as well I know for our PD. Um, and that kind of goes into my a little bit into my next item is is talking about ordinance review and changes and what okay >> what can we do uh or what have we done to be able to help us >> right >> um and PD in some of these uh circumstances. >> Um >> one question I had I was >> Go ahead. Um is there um as far as uh when it comes to ordinances and trying to follow through, you said 25% or you know can give us trouble. >> Is is they are they are they the homeowners? Is it is it anything to do with rental? Where where is it at with that as far as you know? >> I will tell you this that if it's related to rental, we have more teeth to get things accomplished than a single family property owner. Okay? >> There's specific rules. um our rental property if I I almost am glad when it's a rental property because I know we can dig in a little bit deeper and get get results. >> Oh, good to know. >> Yeah, thank you for that. >> I agree with Chief on that one. As soon as I hear it's a rental, it's like, okay, this will be easy fix. >> Good. >> So, we got another rental on 13th. I just drove by today by another local group that's a rental property. I see a new sign there. So >> yeah. Um so you know throughout the year we'll make notes um where we feel there could be a potential change in the ordinance to help us along. Um, and most recently, um, we had a change in the home occupation ordinance that kind of helps define some things that will help us when we're out, uh, dealing with these issues. I know it makes it a lot easier. Um, McKenzie was really excited about that language change in the ordinance. I'm pretty sure that was not something you thought of as a kid, you would be excited about, but here we are. Um and then even later tonight, you know, um during the council me meeting meeting, there's going to be a request for the zoning ordinance uh for permitted encroachments and additions to non-conforming structures. So, some of these changes um the community development director Ken Roberts has talked to us about and shared them with us and um it's been a a good conversation to see, you know, what we think we'll be able to and what they're doing uh will will help us as well. So, uh we continue to to do that um to look at those changes where they're needed. um trying to think of positive reinforcement to um help us through the city to create and maintain a positive culture in our city about property maintenance. Um and these are just thoughts and ideas that we've kind of threw together and have talked about. Um one of them is creating a thorough resident guide for our our people. And I know um we've talked about this and threw out some ideas and not just related to code compliance but the city in general that would be helpful uh for our residents. Um also provide you know code compliance uh information in the in the city newsletter. Um I know that was an idea our city manager had brought up and we want to you know take action on that as well. um some ideas of creating positive, you know, videos to share on social media platforms on how people can maintain their properties and how how they look and, you know, just to create pride in in what you own. Um other thought of utilizing our city website, you know, potentially have a how to keep our city looking great section and our code compliance. Currently we have a co- compliance section but you know provide information um we do have some information online and resources but maybe uh do something a little bit more um to provide resources and how they can pro properly dispose of items. And you know one of the big things we had each each year that our public works and the city does is the spring cleanup. And I know um you know what a huge success that was this past spring and I know the line was really long, but for our standpoint, we look at it as all the items that were basically taking out of people's yards that were a potential problem potentially, you know, hopefully cleaning up um the neighborhood. but uh trying to figure out how to continually, you know, have some resources uh for our residents to to get away or get rid of things. Um, one of the newer big things out there is obviously the new Ramsey County um, recycling um, in over in Roseville that that does uh, take a lot and just, you know, guiding our our people, our residents to utilize it to get rid of stuff. To add to that with the positive reinforcement, we've started up some of them programs too where recognizing best looking yards, best looking gardens or people that are putting out their Christmas lights and, you know, just trying to do some kind of positive reinforcement for some of these people that are going the extra mile. >> Yeah, because we do have, you know, a lot of people out there that do a lot of hard work on their property and and dress it up and and and do that. So, keeping that going is is always a good thing. Do you think we should put some type of a packet, welcome packet for new neighbors moving into the area? mail that to them as a >> that's what I was meaning behind like a resident guide whether it's a new resident guide for for people coming in to you know um that could be given to them when they set up their utility bill here at the city or >> right >> um just having that entire packet available as well online for for people to to see andor share um those items that uh we could be directing people to utilize as well. some of the other things I don't have in the in the PowerPoint that um to help streamline our process that I'd like to look towards uh potentially in the next year. Um because the snow issues and the tall grass issues um come a lot and heavy during those times. um looking at trying to provide uh call it like a door knocker if you will where cuz currently right now it's going out inspecting trying to get a hold of the property owner if they're not there well even if they are there talking to them but if even if they are or not there we're sending them a letter uh but just trying to make the process easier by creating potent potentially a small door knocker. That would be an official way of notifying them, hey, you have a code violation. And I would only be using it on the snow removal on the sidewalk and the tall grass just because the amount of those items that we've had. I've seen other communities do that, but um with that, it's going to require, you know, a little bit more cost and and printing stuff like that. not major but um just something that we haven't done uh before but I think it might help us timewise uh address more issues and be able to uh deal with other things as well. >> Now how about like um cats and dogs? What do you guys deal with more of that or how do we how because I know there's a leash law and you know cats are running freely nightly and is there a way to curb that where the cats are not allowed to run freely? How do we deal with that? >> So cats and dogs uh the police department deals with that. Um, I'd say 99% of the time, um, depending on the issue, sometimes the if it's an issue with, uh, you know, uh, dog waste in somebody's yard, that would be, uh, something that I would deal with. But, uh, like cats running loose, dogs running loose, that that's all going to be a police department issue. Um, and I know that they are I think we all know that there's a kind of a big issue with stray cats in the neighborhood. >> Um, and I know that that's something that the police department is looking to try to figure out a solution, too. >> Okay. >> I don't know they've gotten very far with that solution. Unfortunately, there's just a whole bunch of options, >> right? No, and I really Yeah, it's just I'm just asking a lot of questions. Yeah. And that's basically what's next. Any any more questions regarding um code compliance um or or comments? I guess I have one question. Um, and this might be for Jack, but in the, you know, kind of middle ground between the notifications that McKenzie and, uh, Chief Minger are doing, um, before we get to the, you know, filing, you know, going to filing something through our attorneys, is there, I mean, is there an opportunity to do any kind of a a fine or something like that where we could, you know, do something in the at all. >> Um, sometimes is my my number one lawyer's answer. Um, it depends. So, we do not have the general authority to issue fines. You know, we don't have like a general fine for violation. Um, which I I guess candidly our office is a little more conservative about. There are some cities that kind of take that and run with it a bit more. >> Okay, >> we do not see that there is legal authority anywhere to do that and we see that as some cities are operating on a kind of wait until somebody appeals uh basis we're not as comfortable recommending. There are some things um you know I think some of the weed and grass abatement stuff >> right >> um where there is specific statutory authority for for like a particular issue that may come up uh and then we also always you know sort of the first step in the escalation from code enforcement sending a letter you know before we're actually going to go file any lawsuit we do always send them a letter on you know on our letter head uh and sometimes you know it's one thing to get you know sort of a city employee come say you got to do something >> sometimes there's a level of escalation when when you actually get you know I am the attorney who will be suing you do this or I'm going to >> and and that's okay >> also sometimes something we can do >> um couple questions um first I want to say thank you very much I do really appreciate the work um that you do I I know it's a thankless position at times um but but overall all. Um, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Um, two questions. One, have you guys had a chance to look at the, um, zoning change coming later tonight, specifically the section on um, uh, the permanently installed uh, fireplaces, outdoor fireplaces, and do you like the way that's worded or do you believe that's going to cause you any issues? Uh we did again look at it and there's always a possibility, right? I like Jack's answer sometimes, right? >> Um but uh we did a agree with the the wording in it for >> Okay. Nothing glaring and you're okay if we pass it as it stands tonight. >> Yes. >> Awesome. Yeah. >> Um and then my second question, um because I happen to live along 120, uh my yard's different and I maintain it to 120, but a lot of the yards don't maintain the 120 ditch and the tractors go up and down 120. Is that actually a code violation or is that because because the county m I believe the county >> state >> state maintains it? >> Yeah. >> Um how does that work? Well, um, yeah, part of, uh, I know part of it, uh, whether it's the the a city or a county or the state, a lot of times they want to maintain that right of way area and the grass just for um visibility on the road. Um, we're not we're definitely not sending them uh notices on maintaining that that area. However, you know, as it as you um we do have areas throughout this the city that we have tall grass like that that that's grown, but um we do not um necessarily have uh enforced those areas to be to be mowed. Um, I don't know other than, you know, I'm I'm thinking along the entire way where where you live out there on 120, you know, um, >> at the end of the stop sign, the stopping of the culde-sac there then up and beyond that. >> No, I mean, mo a lot of the properties are on the east side of 120, but there's probably I I'll say six properties that choose not to maintain their ditch. Yeah. >> And let the state know it. And and I didn't know if that was >> okay the way everything was worded because the state maintains it or if that was actually against code. I just didn't know. >> Yeah. I would I would say probably relating it it back to our code, you know, those areas should be maintained and cut. Um, we even have we have this issue as well where we have um may an an easement, you know, that's in an alleyway. It's a utility easement and we sometimes have property owners that will go back into that area and mow it down and and maintain it, but we also have areas where where they don't. Um and those are areas that utility easement area we don't ever you know enforce to be >> uh cut or moan down. Now we do have you know staff that will go through it regularly um to make sure that overgrown brush and stuff like that is being cleared and maintained and not being dumped on. uh you know having materials so that they can get their equipment back there in case there's a storm that they need to get the power lines or for whatever reason back there. But there is some gray areas like that. Um >> that's one of them for sure. >> I appreciate you providing clarity and again thank you. Um really appreciate the work that you do. It's like come over in Mcnite too where you got by Taco Bell you you got the woods and the big trees and then the properties behind that and the countyy's not taking care of that at all either. >> Right. And we've tried to um push them to do a little bit more with that and and do some more mow mowing and tree cutting down. Um for sure. >> And have we had our struggles >> in the county then? >> Good luck with that one. Right. >> How about when uh you have these rental properties and they let the weeds grow up along their their fence lines on that without going in. How how would you guys address something like that? Also, >> you know, now you know, we had the problem next to our our former mayor and the renters that are there now, they've been good renters, but they just don't maintain along his fence line. And how do we go about getting them folks to do a nicer job? >> Yeah, that's the tough part. I'll be honest. You know, we can notify people um all day and night to to be better about taking care of their yard. It It's just going to be the amount of of time and trying to to get them to do it. But at the end of the day, if 99% of their yard is mowed and cleaned up, you know, we usually have plenty others that are >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I get what you're saying. There's there's that level of pride and being, you know, even a tenant or a property owner of of where you are and what you have and having it look nice. I think whether it's on the outside or on the inside, that goes beyond um you know the average person. >> Also, I would just like to let you guys know when you guys go by 14th and 1st tomorrow, it's going to be a culture shock. It's unbelievable. You actually can see something. Thank you. Thank you for doing that. Glad to hear it. Thank you. >> Anything else? >> I just to echo what uh Jason said, I you know, hear all the stories. Some of them are not pleasant or fun to deal with and really appreciate the work that you guys put into that. Yeah, it's definitely, you know, it's it's a tough position um to have to go out there and and talk to a property owner about something they did wrong. And like I said, a lot of times a property owner can be pretty good and be like, "Oh, I didn't know that." And understand the the reasoning why. Um but most of the time it's it's not. It's it's usually difficult. But um I think McKenzie's getting a thicker skin. Well, thank you for that and appreciate it. Also, if like we said before, if there's other things that you see that you think needs to be changed that's, you know, as far as different uh ordinances and things that just don't make sense anymore or need to be tightened, please let us know. Yeah. >> So, that's we appreciate >> to fix some new ordinances and so we get some of these tightened up a little bit and and uh >> make the city look a little nicer again. >> I just want to make sense of We want to make sure we can provide a good living for everybody here. >> You bet. And I just want to thank Jack for being here and answering questions and remind the city to to pay his bills because we do use them often to help answer some areas that as you can see there's a lot of gray area and sometimes we just need some guidance and they usually um can provide that for us and most recently helped us out. Um, >> I got one more. Go ahead. >> Residents that have had trees taken down >> that just let their big stumps lay in their yard. Is there something we can do about that? It's usually more when there's the majority of the tree there. That's that's an issue and creating a problem with rodent harborage and storage and and those types of things to to get rid of. um one stump in a yard. I mean I although I could say >> I'm saying it's a big stump. >> It's probably unsightly. >> Um I'm sure we could tie it to a code but again um >> well I'm just asking questions so in case I get someone you know because I live over in that corner there so >> seems like I'm getting the uh complaints from everybody you know >> for sure. >> So all I got to do is report it. You know, I will say this is something that always, you know, is a bit of a struggle is there is there's definitely there is a gap between, you know, where you want it to be at and where it becomes legally actionable, >> right? >> And, you know, we can we can enforce the bare minimum, >> uh, but we can't require that it look nice. >> Also, trees are very expensive nowadays. Back in the day, you'd take your friend and a case of beer and you would cut down a tree on a weekend. Well, nowadays it's five grand to get trees out of there and trying to get those. So, it's a quite a >> quite a burden. And, you know, take one tree down, we give them two more. So, we're adding to the problems down the line >> because they all grow up. >> Sure. >> All right. Anything else? >> That's all I got. >> Oh, thanks again. Appreciate all the hard work. >> Thank you. >> All right. >> Thank you. >> Nothing else. Ask for a German. >> So moved. I'll move. Council member Norby, Council Member Mackenzie. All those in favor say I. >> I. >> I. We will start up at 6:30. Thank you all.