swear here council member Wong here council member nordby mayor monkey here one second did someone motion yes oh second no I I didn't hear a motion as we aye now we can't start off like this it's been to accept the agenda so moved your honor we'll move council member Wong second second council member Norby all those in favor say aye aye thank you guys I'm just getting a packet download my computer did a reboot topics 20 24 budget I think that you oh I should probably announce you damn thank you thank you mayor council members yes tonight is the official kickoff of our 2024 budget process and in tonight we're going to have a levy setting Workshop um we need direction from you um so Brian and myself our goal is to get you as well informed on the budget as possible so we're going to tonight we're going to I'm going to kind of walk you through where we're at right now with the 2023 budget um what we've accomplished in the last couple of years and um then kind of talk about what are some of the driving factors heading into the 2024 budget preparation and then we will have some activities and councilmember Cole knows that I actually take the workshop seriously since it's a workshop I'm going to put you to work um you know the the real reason is to find out some information from you so we can supply better documentation as we go through the budget process I think you're all aware by uh September 30th we need to certify our maximum Levy to the county we usually do that in about the first meeting in September um so in in the levy portion of our budget includes the general operations of the city the debt Levy they're combined as far as known as the city's Levy and then there's the HRA Levy in the Eva Levy those have to be certified as a maximum by the end of September our internal service funds our Enterprise funds and so forth those budgets can continue in the year and everything think it's ultimately approved in December so with that I'm just going to kind of walk you through where we're at and the purpose of tonight is to provide an opportunity for the city council to discuss and set the 2024 Levy Target the items for consideration is the starting point our 2023 budget in city-based property tax levy the driving factors for 2024 are preliminary evaluation changes the HRA and Eda property tax levy and then a budget calendar so the starting point of 2023 this is kind of where we're at right now and these are the general fund highlights our revenues are comprised of property taxes comprise 56 of our revenues that we get in the general fund intergovernmental is 18 that's primarily primarily made up of the um local government Aid and then there's other financing sources or transfers nine percent um our Enterprise funds expenditures the composition by categories is our personnel and benefits comprise 63 percent of our general fund budget Professional Services 28 and supplies 5 percent expenditures by Department our Police makes up 42 percent our fire and code enforcement make up 14 percent our Street Maintenance makes up 14 percent and as you can see in 2023 our Levy and the general fund was increased approximately 12.6 percent and in the past 14 years we've averaged 5.8 percent Levy increase as you can see by this that our biggest components are our staff we have a heavy Reliance on property taxes and we have a heavy Reliance on other intergovernmental funding sources property taxes intergovernmental funding sources amount to 74 percent of our revenue streams where you see our personnel and benefits represents 63 percent our Public Safety which is a combination of our police and fire and code enforcement alone is 56 of our general fund this will kind of show you just in a graphic form uh those same revenues by categories again the biggest piece of that pie is the ad valarum taxes or property taxes so the biggest burden on the revenue side goes to our residents again expenditures by category on a graph form shows the biggest piece of the pie is our Personnel costs and by departments you can see police is by far the biggest piece of the pie followed by fire and code enforcement and then by Street Maintenance you can see that the rest of the Departments that are in the general fund in total are in pale in comparison to those three in in total total composition you're looking at about about 70 percent of it is either in Street fire and code enforcement or police this is my third budget I don't want to be known as the finance director that keeps increasing the levy all the way through but this is what has has happened in in um you know the increase from 2021 to 2023. as you can see the city has done an excellent job the credit goes to the city council um they have thrown a lot of funds towards the police department in those two years the police department from 2021 to 2023 has gone up approximately six 726 thousand dollars um you see um followed by Building Inspections that's part of when you look at Building Inspections it's the permitting part to it it's also offset by Revenue um so that's kind of a little misleading kind of component to it if we reduce our expenditures and the building inspections we also have to reduce our uh um our revenue streams so for the majority right now on the contract reads from the majority of permitting we get we retain about 90 percent of the total cost as a revenue stream the rest of its expenditure if it's an electrical inspection we retain 20 and 80 percent is goes to the vendor that we utilize you can see that building inspection our fire has gone up approximately 165 000 Street Maintenance 205 000. the biggest reason why these increases was last year when we went through the budget and the kickoff there were two primary areas of concentration that the city council spoke of one was Staffing when the city went from the year 2020 to 2021 there were four staff reductions at that point to get to a zero percent Levy the city decided to do that zero percent Levy in in from 2020 to 2021 primarily because of Colvin so they took the residence in consideration and they said hey we don't know what this is going to be like and obviously when we start the budget in June and we have to have the general fund done by September uh we don't know what that impact is and if everybody remembers shutter in place was imposed I think in March of 2020. so so in the past two years the city has invested quite a bit in Staffing and I think we've done an excellent job what I'm saying is that I think we need to live with that Staffing level for a while I think we need to see what those results are and how it moves the needle as needle as far as our services that we're providing um the other part of those two components that were given to us as main focuses was infrastructure if you remember last year that part of the option of of increasing the general fund to 12.6 was also to eliminate our HRA Levy which then had an overall impact of about approximately 8.5 percent to the residents part of part of the reason of maintaining a higher general fund rate that goes on to the property taxes itself is because the city of North Saint Paul ranks number 17 amongst all of the Cities as a fiscal despair fiscal disparities recipient in other words we're we're considered a winner so all the fiscal disparities Pool Works is that it was adopted it was in 1971 it took your commercial value of your property at that point in time it's administered through the metro area part of the principle behind it is that no local jurisdiction has a say in where a highway or a roadway is going to go which could spur on some commercial development so there should be some sort of sharing amongst all of the participants all over the cities that are there because we have a very low commercial base that our fiscal contribution is very small the distribution is very high when the distribution comes in it's a market value and then it's multiplied by the prior year's tax rate and that generates into real dollars so last year we got approximately 1.2 million dollars from fiscal disparities so whatever we Levy gets reduced by that 1.2 as it's passed on to the property tax payers the residents of the city of North Saint Paul so that's a big factor that we need to to realize if if we don't keep up our rate um with the increasing and the bigger factors with the increasing of Market values our rate will go down and then it can have an impact it's one of the one of the potential impacts that it could have on lowering the amount of fiscal disparity dollars that will get in the subsequent year which then means if you hold everything else constant that will actually have a higher impact on our taxpayers when they get their tax bills so that's that's a consideration that we've worked on the past two years and I think we've done a very good job as far as that the numbers aren't in yet fiscal disparity numbers don't become final until August we haven't seen even the preliminary net tax capacity numbers from the county yet but hopefully by July we'll start to get that and we'll start to see where we're at but we do have preliminary values which I'll share with you in a little bit yes yes sir on that one statement you just said before so it's like if you don't spend then you're going to be even maybe more because you're not going to get as much back from the government from the state yeah so there could be a holding us accountable as far as fiscally but that means less from what's coming back right it's not it doesn't come from the state it comes from all of the Cities you know contribute the portion of you know above their base yeah um into this pool uh so what ends up happening is that in the subsequent year if your rates have dropped that's one of the factors also the other part of the factor is the growth in commercial and the market values that are adjusted in there but holding everything else constant that if we were to our rate was to were to drop very low and we got the same distribution value in other words the same type of growth across the metro area as far as the commercial and Industrial properties then because our rate dropped we would end up getting a lower value that ends up reducing our Levy which ends up getting passed on to the taxpayer so yes they do end up with a impact because of that in because of that the number one recipient of fiscal disparities is the city of Saint Paul um and we rank the the 17th out of there so we're in the top 20 um and it's considered a winner so that's a part of our equation as we go through things and we'll get into more detail further down in our in our our budget discussions um that won't happen tonight but I just want to make everybody aware because in the past two years we've we've been very conscious conscientious about that fact in the first year that I was here we actually um went out and refunded some debt that was on a market value basis and moved it over to uh tax capacity um that ended up helping us raise our rate without having an impact on the increasing of the levy at all it actually reduced the levy but it also further reduced the impact they would have on our residents of the city of North Saint Paul just kind of comparison you know the I just mentioned that you know the city in the past two years has really put a lot of money towards Public Safety I can't answer what's enough and what's not enough but I wanted to do kind of a comparison to see how we're doing Public Safety compared to other cities in the state of Minnesota that are roughly our size and you can see a lot of highlights that that are there um and each one of the columns the highlighted are the top five so in population you can see that we're not one of the top five in general fund budget we're not one of the top five but as far as a police budget and a fire budget the two components that make up are are total Public Safety and our total Public Safety we are in the top five in cities that are comparable to our size when you compare the public safety total budget to the general fund budget as a percentage there's where that 56 percent that I showed in the other graph we are the highest so kind of looking at some of the components to that and you know I look at we have both in-house police and fire um some cities even in Ramsey County that are our size have done a little different you know makeup as you can see the city of Vadnais Heights that has a population a little bit higher than ours they contract out their police force they don't have uh you know their own Police Department um if you look at um the city of Mounds View Mounds View has their own Police Department yet their fire department is through a joint Powers agreement that is shared between Blaine Spring Lake Park and and Mounds View I think those are the only the three entities that are a part of that and then you can look at Little Canada that has a contracted police and you see their fire is significantly less than ours I'm bringing this to your attention not to say that that's what we should be doing it's Food For Thought today's kind of our we're going to have some activities where we're going to brainstorm I'm showing you we got a heavy Reliance on property taxes we got a heavy Reliance on the intergovernmental you know we're making over 70 percent of our Revenue what choices do we have in generating Revenue the other side of the equation is reducing expenditures some of that at some point in time are going to become some very difficult decisions to make they're not my decisions they're your decisions and that's part of the theme that Brian and I are trying to pass and message that we're trying to give to this budget is that we want to we want to put you in a position to make sure that you're as well informed of everything that you can make the best decision for the city as possible and I know you will and so that's really what this slide is because I was kind of curious to how some of the other cities were were as a makeup and were they all facing that higher percentage in public safety as as we were yes if you go back to that other Slide the slide we're just on yep yes sir do any of those townships or cities um do they have their own additional of sales tax and would that be included in this um that's a very good question I can't I can't answer that but definitely we'll we'll look at that and and absolutely no you're you're you're pinning a point where their sales tax could be a rather than a revenue source so I I see it see this is this is what I love about this kickoff the rest of it kind of gets tougher but there's kickoff because we start to to ask and and any comments that you make then it gives me food for thought and things that we need to research so um we can look at seeing um and putting some information together for you for cities that are comparable to our size um that do have a sales tax um and we can bring that information back to you so very good question thank you would you agree that if a city on here does have a sales tax it could possibly skew these results um no okay um because their general fund budget would be their general fund it's just that their Reliance on property taxes and other Revenue sources would be a less percentage than it is for ours for comparable cities do you mind also looking at like Regional the ones closest to us as well even though they're not the same size I'm just thinking in in terms of sales tax for example where a small community probably more people spend money here than you know other places and most people would come here for different Services as well more than our population okay well if that makes sense okay absolutely absolutely the next slide shows you our Levy and it kind of shows you it from 2009 all the way to the current of 2023 and you can see for a number of years from 2010 to you know 2014 2015 it was relatively flat you can see it's been a steep incline it was again flat for the 20 to 2021 that was when when the city made the decision to do a zero percent Levy and then there's been significantly and a sharp increase in 2022 and 2023. overall when you take an average of all those years it comes up to approximately about a 5.8 percent average annual Levy increase uh again the levees made up of two components uh one's debt and the other one is uh just for the general operations of the city some of the driving factors for this upcoming budget in 2024 um based upon our current Staffing levels and the union contracts that are total Personnel costs in the general fund because we're focusing on just general fund not all the rest of the Enterprises at this point in time has got approximately 322 000 or 4.9 percent Levy increase existing Personnel benefits went up to 223 000 or 3.4 percent Levy increase we have already made the transition from a contracted Communications coordinator to a city staff that at an increase in our Personnel across approximately seventy seven thousand dollars but we have a reduction in our contractual Services of 62 000. so that Delta about 14 000 is about a point two percent Levy increase and then there's been a switch back now to two part-time community service officers in the police department replacing the one full-time and that's a increase approximately 22 000 or 0.3 Levy increase our debt Levy increase this year has increased approximately seventy six thousand dollars and that's because we're for the first time having to well we've actually this is the third years this is the first year we actually have to Levy for it it's the debt um that was issued um for all of the work over around the Centennial area for the roads and such and that's a 1.2 percent Levy increase um good news that local government Aid in this last legislative session we will receive eighty four thousand dollars more so that'll decrease our our Levy um 1.3 percent um unfortunately it quickly gets offset by metro inet metro inet's total charges are increasing um um approximately 52 500 this is the second consecutive year that we've seen some really big increases to Metro inet we will be having meetings come out coming up in the next few weeks with Metro inet they've been very open and so we'll have that discussion probably the biggest driver and Brian jump in if I misquote this at this point in time one of the mechanisms in which they use to charge or they use it as a measurement to to come up with their rates and they charge their customers is the number of you users on the system in other words if you have an email address you're a user the city made a big change this past year and trying to get all of our commission members emails so that was one of the bigger driving factors and in addition um well of course their costs went up in addition they they lost a couple of cities um that are part of the jpa for the Metro inet so with that combination we're seeing a bigger a bigger uh bigger share if we would not have had that increase to our commission members on emails they would not have been as high as this but still we would have seen another increase on onto that at 51 what percent is that of an increase um it's a 0.8 percent Levy increase Dan Point Clarity what are you using for a levy point sixty thousand sixty five thousand seventy about 70 yeah that's where we're at I tried to do the math interface so I thought I'd ask it easier thank you um and then um CIP and infrastructure are going to be some big driver driving reports yes sir that wasn't quite the question I was about the what is the percent that they're charging us how much did that go up this is what I was asking oh the percent that dates I keep yeah because you said oh sure sure there was a big increase I mean what percent increase have we been having because I'm I'm in the technology department for my uh that real job that resulted in a 19 increase from our 2023 and there was an increase that was almost that big you think I think it was 20 last year so that's 49 multiplied probably get you to low 41 compounded all right thank you yeah significant yes yeah yeah can you speak to the um percentage of um rough percentage of how much it costs to have those emails just so I can kind of understand the 51 000 I can't break a night but I definitely will supply that information kind of a breakdown um that's why we've got part of a meeting with them to kind of get a better understanding of how they're coming up with their rates their charges um and to get at that information then that will be something that we will share back one with you thank you question did I um in the last raise of the 20 percent wasn't that right at the where we could have decided to go somewhere else was that this company where it was that one meeting I was at no no uh What year no what you were is health insurance oh hold on I'm sorry thank you I knew there was something that got bumped right away to that level and I thought maybe that was that 20 thanks so do you want to explain why there was a big increase last year with the inet and how they went independent from being under the City of Roseville yeah last year you know up up to last year they really have been I call it more of a quasi City of Roseville Department um they've now broken away in their their own entity so every city that's a part of it had to sign on to a jpa uh John Powers agreement and um they're they hired um a CIO um they're restructuring how things have been done and there was a lot of positions from what they've said that were doing dual roles some were doing three different jobs so they've hired a lot of a number I think last year was like nine ftes that they ended up hiring in addition to that they didn't have any fund balance for replacement of equipment for their infrastructure so they ended up coming up with a couple of different models to start to build up that fund balance to make sure that they're an ongoing concern um they had three options ABC they ended up at the end of the day choosing option b which was approximately a 20 increase um the highest end of the option was a 30 increase and so it got reduced um uh somewhat um but I think in our conversations um basically where we were anticipating um from what they were saying that with their increases and contracts and from their vendors that it would have been more like about a 10 increase this year so we were shocked um to see it increase 19 after a 20 percent increase and again that's the reason why we're we're going to have a meeting and work through that and find out where we're at also um you know it may be a time to to look at is there certain ways that we can break some of the services that are being provided by Metro inet and Contracting with somebody else for them and trying to reduce costs and so that's one of our options I get to write that one up there as a brainstorming option when we get into our activities later on but yeah we need to look at everything and so that is one of the options that we need I think there'd be difference between an email address and a whole Microsoft Suite license so to me that's your adding licenses that are people don't except for and they are they are looking at um and and they haven't started it but um they're looking at uh maybe coming up with different methodology in which they do charge their charges um and so that may be a suggestion in the future of how they go about it would that create a significant reduction for us definitely would create some of a some reduction I can't tell you first if what we're paying is in line with what we would find from an outside vendor some cities have broken out parts of the services not all um so and and from our discussions um with Metro inet they're very much open to it they're not saying it's nope it's All or Nothing um so they're willing to work with us and and help us get to that next point and for us it's all about we got to try to be able to reduce our costs um contract right now as far as that are we in the middle of a contract with them I would I would say there has to be probably a a one year out after they set their budget but I'm I'm not 100 sure if you remember what the jpa says Brian I don't have to talk my head we'll have to look into look in that yep thank you and then CIP air infrastructure or Capital Improvement plan um and uh we'll be getting to that in our in our next meeting in July I am really happy to announce and I left them downstairs can you believe that could you please yes um yeah there's some yeah if you can find them on my desk that's no small task I know you were going to say that send out a search party yeah so in inner CIP I honestly I honestly believe that the CIP is very very important because it really is about your planning it's about your vision for the city in the future um when I came here there really wasn't a comprehensive Capital Improvement plan was more just on the road reconstruction plan which has to be done every six years for bonding purposes so we've done a very good job of instituting and and it takes a lot of work from all of our department heads to put this all together um it was built in an Excel spreadsheet hard to read not a lot of description which isn't that good for you to have an understanding of what the needs in the city are so for sixteen hundred dollars we bought a new piece of software software that we're using and I just wanted to show you a couple of reports that that come off of that system and one of them is is every project will have a description and justification um that you'll be able to see and again it's part of that mission that that Brian and I have for this year is to get you as well informed as possible so you can make the best decision for the city so um I'm actually excited um and um and uh our our new addition to the finance department is the one who had some experience with the software that we chose to use and I think it's uh very very beneficial and hopefully if you want to hold off on that one for a second that one that one there but that other one there so you can see it it's still in a draft form um but kind of excited about that so we can see that but obviously your infrastructure is a big part of your budget because there's so much Capital that's what ties into your debt and your ability to keep moving forward so the items that are identified up above come to about 364 thousand dollars which is a 5.6 percent Levy increase um kind of a summary of the the debt Levy um we kind of talk about that you know it's it's increasing uh 75 000 again you can see it's from the 2020a tax increment bonds um again I'm trying to trying to frame this so we're all fully aware um last year at the truth and Taxation meeting we had a resident come here and um had said hey you know what about our debt um and they had asked about the the bonds that were issued for the the City Public Works facility and said oh well that ought to be um you know coming to an end soon um and the answer was yes it will be the final pay year will be in 2025 we'll in this 2024 is when we stop levying for it um I didn't have the heart to say the rest of the story and the rest of the story is yeah it's going away but it's going to be replaced by other debt if we're going to be able to maintain our infrastructure and that's where that again that CIP becomes so important because that's really where city council has to identify where the priorities are and trying to minimize the impact that it has on the residents of the city of North St Paul preliminary value valuations here's some good news finally that the market values are continuing to to increase and the market values again are as of January 2nd of 2023 that we use for um payable year 2024. it's the four fourth highest total market value increase in 11 years it's an increase across all property segments and it's the third highest median residential market value increase in 10 years and so as you can see our median value home increases from 273 900 to 299 000 which represents an eight-point uh one percent increase you can see our overall estimated market value has also increased um and that represents a nine point uh one percent increase in in market value so again we're seeing big market value increases last year if you recall we had a about a 15.5 percent market value increase this right here this slide just kind of depicts shows you the number of parcels that were in a 22 Parcels in 23 and then the change and then the median value change and you can see all of the segments um except for apartments have have increased the HRA and the Eda Levy right now um you know the thought is proposing to keep them the same as they were in 2023 with the HRA not having a levy and the Eda being the same amount that we levied last year of approximately two hundred and one thousand dollars the budget calendar as of to date all preliminary budgets have been submitted by department heads all department heads have met with the city manager myself and Mary Kay we are working on the second part if you want to pass that other part to it again to I hate to keep saying this over again but this is our theme this year to keep you as well informed as possible so you make the best decision we are going to have when our department has come up for their presentations doing their presentations on their budget and they'll be doing their presentations on the CIP and that bit of information will be there their narrative about their budget with some statistical information so they are right now in the process of filling that out and completing that as well as we're wrapping up the CIP and we will have a department head meeting to review all of the CIP and Brian will make the final decision on what the what's on the cap when it gets presented to you in our next budget meeting um and as you can see again um right now I'm kind of targeting September 5th for the adoption of the preliminary 2024 property tax levy again when we adopt the property tax levy it's the maximum that means it can't go up from that point in time but it certainly can go down so I mean there can still be discussions um all the way through to the time that we approve it in December um and um again we we are required to have a truth and Taxation hearing and that usually is the notifications usually go and you have to hold them towards the end of November early December um we have in the past had it on the first Tuesday in December um and then um I will have it then and then the following two weeks we'll have the actual approval of uh the levy itself so that's the first part and I got to do a lot of talking and so I'm going to throw it out if there's any questions for clarification at this point before we move on to the second part of our discussion tonight call out a potential of it is it I gotta scroll to the top 12.3 percent living increase and that's kind of with everybody's wishes and Desires in is that what's wrong is that what it's rolling to uh we have not gotten to that point yet that 12 6 was what we did in 2023 this year okay we were up that much well but we didn't Levy anything for the HRA so the overall total Levy was eight and a half percent okay that's the number I remember okay that's the number you get so we put before we put anything on top we're already at about five and a half and a half six okay and that's just to maintain that's just to maintain right now at this point in time um and there's still things that can change um these are you know preliminary numbers but yes of what we have so far um and where um the meetings with the city manager that's where we're at right now early guidance from surrounding communities um I've had just yeah but I've had some preliminary conversations and of few of them are somewhere in the target of six seven percent um okay more more to come on that so all right when when you're talking numbers just we're on the same page when we Levy we pick a a certain dollar amount and every percentage you're giving us is a change of that dollar amount from last year correct correct what was the dollar amount from last year good question of the overall Levy I think it would have had been somewhere about I was going to say 6.9 million total debt and I think that's where the 70 000 comes up from I don't think so um yes it is um the total Levy was uh 6.5 million five approximately 5.25 um was um General operations and 1.4 was um that it's on page 10. any other questions all right now we need your help all right coach no more levies no more levies yeah oh this is going to be a tough gift oh cordless oh we're getting fancy can you hear me yes sir can hear you now this is going to be a tough tough crowd if I'm already here in the chat no more Levy no more Levy I mean this is going to be tough but if that's what you decide that's what you decide because remember at the end of the day so your first activity today is uh Council activity a little brainstorming um okay we're faced with many infrastructural needs and Rising costs what do we do to maximize our resources and minimize the overall impact to the residents of the city so I'll start off and uh because we've already heard it it's really uh review like our IP is that microphone on top there I might be catching that one lights off all right review ID could start I'm not going to pick on anybody right away review insurance yes being the first one yeah usually I have to go afterwards industry yeah when I was talking to other cities one of the big things that they asked was about with the fire department because we still have volunteers and everybody's been going to full time and I don't know where that where we're at with the fire department as far as budgeting and things like that is that something we have to be concerned about um I don't know where that fit in there just understand the fire department's needs because as I was looking down we see some big purchases for some fire department equipment and every town around us has gone to full-time fire departments now because they can't find volunteers does that make sense so we have to see where we're at for our budget because we're going to spend money on we have to understand because we have a couple big ticket items coming up for the fire department where we're sitting at that because do we have to make changes like everybody else in towns or smaller towns where that's we still get enough of our volunteers and everything else so that's just something to talk about again I'm not advocating one way or the other I look at everything yep and the way I look at it um you know it's with the fire and the police um we're hearing the difficulty in getting people into the public service you know Public Safety Arena I don't dispute any of that um tough environment um just shows you there's some other cities that are right here in Ramsey County that have gone a different route with it and they've contracted and they end up Contracting with Ramsey County Sheriff's Department um you could save money by Contracting your police services with Ramsey County you probably could and and our police chief didn't block it when I threw it in his budget hearing um probably could save 1.5 million dollars by doing that is it the same level of service I have no idea is it a desire for me today I have no idea I'm just throwing up you know thoughts and ideas and so forth but the devil's side to it is if we're having such a difficulty in getting in a retaining police force why do we keep having this problem if our costs are keep going up higher and higher to the point that we're fitting our residents so it's worth a discussion I'm not heading into directions I'm just saying it's worth a discussion when we're sitting at the end of the day and in the past two years we've had a six percent living increase and 4.6 on our general fund components to get where we're at we see that we had 726 thousand dollars worth of an increase in expenditures in our Police Department my question is where does it end and how does it end the preliminary asked from our police chief in this past gurram depliminary which is not included in any of our numbers at this point in time but it'll be something that you'll have a discussion was for some additional ftes into the tune of five hundred thousand dollars there's seven percent Levy increase right there just for them alone um how do you keep affording that that that's The Balancing Act and that's part of this activity is how do we look at and to me I look at it from the standpoint it's nothing should be off the table at the end of the day after you have a discussion you may not decide to do something that's your decision being the first time for me in the budget Community you know meetings and things like that I want to make sure everything is on the table either you prove it's a good resource of money or you know vet it out either Direction that's that's what I want I don't want anybody to do we can't talk about that I wanted to oh wow we're lucky to have this and we're willing to pay that and you understand what else is out there and you understand what value you're getting it's easier than just to not talk about it and everybody just sweeps it under the rug and then it becomes this big expense that nobody talks about so I hope we can just bring it out there exactly what you should be looking at it exactly avoiding it doesn't get rid of it right so I I by the same token as a Police Department review and again you're absolutely right and that's part of the reason why that other document the second document that went around is that normally you have not seen that statistical information and the meetings with the department heads should be focused on when I look at it is without putting in performance measurements you know in the city is how did you move the needle um in two years you've got 726 thousand dollars how did that equate to a better Public Safety for the residents of the city of North Saint Paul if you can't answer that question then we get a little bit of trouble um and so that's really the drive that Brian and I are telling the department is that you need to be able to talk about how we're moving the needle and that's part of it's very important because talking about it doesn't mean you're against something absolutely and that's what I'm saying I don't get me wrong 100 that's why I'm agreeing if we bring it out you know we prove good bad and then we work our way peace out I was thinking about also perhaps looking at a review or Prosper that um contractors and Consultants versus in-house or vice versa correct sure yeah that was the contract came today you may decide to go in-house something that's in-house you mean Outhouse sure that's good if I could also add um perhaps a like looking at Grants whether it be federal state or otherwise many many brands that are given and uh there's one that was passed by the legislation this past year where there's a public uh Public Safety dollars so the city is going to be receiving 543 thousand dollars funds that need to be safety or right away you can look at and say all right I get 542 thousand dollars to spend on whatever I want the bottom line is the city is already paying quite a bit in public safety components I'm not talking about Staffing I'm talking about what's on the cap replacement of vehicles bulletproof vests got some big expenditures on the the fire department coming up yep that's for your 542 thousand dollars you should should really be when we're looking at where we're at today it should be on things that are already existing in our cfp plan to maybe help us be able to afford the things that are coming without putting all that burden on the taxpayers again instead of coming up with new ideas and New Concepts every time you come up with a new concept a new idea whatever that useful life is five years six years seven years down the road you got to replace it and the money's not going to be there no the city has that burden of replacing that something to keep in mind but yes France we've already been looking at um for the emerilash border they've increased money again for that so we're going to be applying for that later this year approved a little out of the box just because I'm not familiar with it planned obsolescence of City Vehicles City equipment I'm assuming there's some type of magical accounting that is that takes place to determine every five years every 10 years um is there a way to look at that I mean when we get rid of a vehicle is it done or are we replacing it because we have budgeted to replace it and I'm going to hypothetically say five years the estimated useful like um you know we saw a change um when we saw and I'm not picking on everybody don't get but we saw a change when it came into the desire of a different relationship at one point in time the vehicle is at a seven year replacement and his preference was five years five years is acceptable in many organizations in the police point but does it have to be if you were to go back to that seven do the calculation what does that do yeah exactly and so yes we do have to have um you know kind of a review of the useful ones because seven years for maybe a Ramsey County sheriff is much different than seven years for nursing Paul three by three square miles absolutely does a balanced budget um account for the cost of life expectancy if this building's life expectancy is 30 years um is and and we are required to have a balanced budget do we put a 30th of this building aside every year how and kind of back to the obsolescents of vehicles if if a vehicle is seven years do we put a seventh of each vehicle how does a what is a balanced budget mean in that is a very good question we're not quite there ours putting bonds aside to replace all of the vehicles um definitely not the facilities the facilities is probably the weakest area um but our equipment fund where all the vehicles are being replaced from in the general fund um does have enough money to go all the way through for the next 10 years it needs to be wrapped up a little bit um to accomplish exactly what you're saying so in the budgets so our equipment fund our Insurance Fund um our technology fund our building maintenance fund um and then we have a mechanic fund but um goal Supply funds are internal service funds so their costs are budgeted there and then they're allocated out to the other departments so if you look at any budget you'll see that there could be um you know and I there will be an I.T charge that's based on an allocation usually usually ftes say to a better way to distribute it equipment is usually looking at it over a length of time at least 10 years and then having that allocation being in that budget so they are contributing and so then there's quarterly basically payments that are made from those into that internal service fund so they are included in the budgets themselves so we're trying to get to the point where the true cost of that program is really reflected in one place when you look at that budget it has all of the costs so good question number one sales tax how could I forget that one right it's so popular foreign but now that uh marijuana is becoming legal bad tax bad sales and all that's tied to cities at times I I it's just it's sitting in my head I can't yeah so my understanding is that cities will receive 20 percent of sales however local jurisdictions can't add additional taxes it cannot it cannot they cannot it's set at 10 percent and there's a lot of debate on why that is that you open it up I did sorry no no it's the reality of it no I'm gonna go a step further okay well what about the city being a cannabis distribution place to generate Revenue I know controversial I'm not going to disagree with that I'm not saying yes or no I'm saying it's where like that I don't disagree you know it was in the news quite a bit during the covet time frame cities that had gotten in when their population was less than ten thousand that opened up Municipal liquor stores made a killing during the Golden Country and they do a very good job outside of the covert time period but it's a revenue Source again look at those percentages that are sitting out there that were dependent on property taxes it's a revenue source so in 2020 a lot of cities looking around and saying kick ourselves why didn't we get into it it was controversy that controversial back then I'm not saying yes or no actually I threw this out to our chief police and you know what he told me so that's important I could control it again and I'd love to see a whole workshop on it just yeah because it's all new it's new to this I'd love to have a workshop on it to talk through it because it is a revenue source and and to your point the percent of commercial versus percent of residential in the city of North St Paul is um way skewed heavier to to the residents than to the commercial side just based on on where we are um and you know I've always been on board with what can we do to shift it off the residence and and find someplace else to go you know I think we threw out last year parking meters or we you know it's just some just some some random ideas that were somewhat comical more than than actual but it's another source that was mine then it was the greatest idea I ever heard that's [Laughter] the greatest idea [Laughter] way to go Lisa you had mentioned municipals am I correct that because our population is over ten thousand dollars that is off the table for a liquor store I have a correction I think I said local jurisdictions cannot tax cannabis they can if if it's coupled with something else but not a standalone sales tax generate right that's my understanding so there can't be a separate one just on cannabis I thought really covers it covered underneath this here do you have anything in place for your departments um if the bill is a yearly five thousand dollars you must get a competing quote every five years if the bills every you know and I'm just throwing numbers 50 000 you must get um a quote every two years um scaling up um quotes for costs so so the purchasing policy self everything I think above two thousand dollars it's encouraged that you get two quotes if possible there's a part of the statute that basically says one of your very first looks after you go up above twenty five thousand dollars and the statute says you really should look at the Minnesota state contract list to see if there's a Contracting purchasing follower of Master contracts you need to First consider them but you don't have to use them anything over 175 thousand dollars needs to have a formal bid process so yes but um doesn't mean I I look at this a little this one here a little bit differently because we do have some big contracts um you know um some that come to mind are um we've got a lot we've got two locked contracts one one for here that's over city council we've got another one that's um police um there's um there's our engineering there's our inspections those are some some bigger dollar contracts that's the hardest for a city or a size because every single city has to have the same thing but when it's this size it doesn't matter it's like oh we only have twelve thousand well we gotta have the lawyers we got to have the law enforcement we got to have everything like when I build a phone system for somebody to say well how come it's that much difference you know from going from 25 to 50 users because it's just an ad in a person same thing with this we have to build this whole entire infrastructure for 12 000 that might go to thirty thousand for the infrastructure we have to have so that's where it becomes you know we're too small to be big and too big to be small that's how I refer to it as absolutely exactly but I think I think that are we running some sort of competitive process from time to time to make sure that we're getting the best bank yes and it's a great time and that's to me the big yes everything should be looked at for that type of thing yeah I agree all right which is there now we're gonna we're gonna move on okay we're moving on one quick question if you don't is there anything on this list that um the two members that were here for the last budget doesn't see on there that thinks is there anything that jumps out at you I just went back I try to look through my notes from last year and I couldn't I didn't run parallel notes from with what we talked through last year okay um you see anything breaking all right parking yes oh Post-it notes [Music] I fed you yes you did you already need enough for a whole book of notepads no so if you can take a moment and write down what you see uc's highest priorities for the before budget how specific or generally you're looking I think you can we can drill down you don't get to play doesn't matter Are we almost ready to share this is where I started pick on people council member yes sir what do you have I have roads um completion of the downtown Improvement project and ensure that we have adequate Staffing may I have your who would like to volunteer for being the second I liked it better when I sat down where council member Norby is I'm just saying it's a nice seat I can go next it's not super long game I have roads and then I also have uh just the overall total Compensation Plan for employees I think mine's going down laughs yours is the first this is right there with you we're stopping these fries [Music] workshop's done now you um the community center start thinking about that um and Staffing around that or what that might look like um Parks and Rec a master plan I think that um our discussions this year warranted that instead of just roads looking at like a entire Transportation plan including sidewalks from my understanding at The Retreat that was a big topic um so including sidewalks and bike lanes and then I said the internet so much needs to be reviewed councilmember Norton there will be a summary of this that'll that'll go on to everybody um I did more generalities than specifics so I said keeping costs low keeping perception of safety up not kicking the can down the road and limiting liability it's nice to go last exactly I had the roads and the trails as well the business layout to make sure we're you know keeping our businesses being able to work with them and to keep growing the way they're growing and uh school school safety for the students thank you very much city manager we are there to discussed ours like me to share as a poster with you it's pretty blank over here to hear about it okay please take a moment write down what range you would like to set for the 2024 Levy Target that's not fair no whammys no Emmys in you and again just as a reminder we're at five six just to break even just to break even okay 70 or 75 70. okay you can cut me out on this one I'm not when it comes to this budget I'm sorry I'm a little I'm still learning all this so I'm gonna bow out of this one remember phrase your answer in the form of a question nobody can hate me right now so hmm all right are we all all answers are in are there now final and we're gonna go to the mayor I'd like to see it at five percent to see what we can do I mean we've gone through a lot over the last few years I don't know how realistic I've never done right that's why I threw the hands up there noob I said from one to five percent what do you want to get rid of them uh six to ten percent [Music] would you like more pizza no thank you just kidding very nice so let's be an airplane I tried throwing a piece of paper at your mind I went with seven to eight I used the base of 5.6 and then another two million dollars added onto the budget for CIP for everything else to come up with the percentage it's a really interesting concept can I have yours too you cake breads no it's a little interesting it's a real interesting concept because the city went away from special assessments a number of years back and um you know obviously special assessments generates Revenue and so no that's something that we have to let is the city council open to having a portion of our levy on an annual basis to be dedicated towards infrastructure um yeah instead of a special assessment I mean truthfully to bring special assessments back is going to create a lot of issues um that was the last one to write the ten thousand dollar check for my streets that's right you if you were in the that last area yep yeah there's some truth to that though but if you bring it back many cities haven't I mean you you can have I thought there was some unconstitutional I thought something was passed where they weren't allowed to do special assessments anymore was that I just wrote a check up for ten thousand dollars in my area all right then it's not true but uh no I mean obviously there can it's special assessments to the property Frontage that is probably the biggest part of it that ends up being disputed um but you would end up having um a major complaints have you run it back but another way to offset it would be to have some sort of increase in your your living if you remember last year that's what we were trying to do um and we put some money and then at the 11th Hour our health insurance went up significantly with with Peep and it ate into our ability to start to build that that constantly I look at it as being more of a sustainable way of funding your infrastructure into the future and so it's just kind of interesting how I looked at it like one of the last ones to do the check for that is I don't have to pay forty thousand dollars for a septic system I don't have to pay you know because I have all the city stuff that comes in front of my house that they're ripping up for so to me ten thousand compared to a septic system or something like that in my mind that's how I Justified it because I don't have to drill a well I don't have to have a septic system out back that costs thirty thousand dollars sure but I understand now nobody wants to add more to property tax but yeah I can see that so the last question for you tonight if you could uh please take a moment and write down what budget topics or additional information would help in making your final budget decision there's what other information would you like to see kind of told you how the format is going to go we're going to have our department heads here next meeting you will be given the complete CIP booklet and then when our department has come um you'll see their budget they will you'll see the narratives the statistics you'll be they'll be presenting both their budget and their CIP requests and it's your opportunity to hear from them and ask any questions that you may have we'll be doing that with all of our budgets all the way through the whole entire process again up to September we really do have to focus on general fund HRA Eda because those are the levy components the city to be able to certify our maximum is there other information that you seek to be able to help make that decision and again if you don't have something right now you may come up with something later on but it helps us um make sure that we're keeping you as informed and giving you all the information that you need to make the best decision for the residents of the city of North St Paul and it helps us lay out how we're going to be doing the future Pres entations so you'll have a list because we don't know what we don't know yet right so we're brand new so we need you know the guidance of other Council Members Plus the the city to say you know this is something we need to focus on if we don't know what type of thing okay all right one of the things I think I have more Maplewood just what are our neighbors doing Eva and I really appreciate that budget you did with uh for the um compared to the other cities that that you had down there for pricing as far as you know where they're sitting and and how other cities are doing our size too I like Maplewood and Oakdale but we're the little kids in the block so exactly we need to have somebody like big lake and those other ones and uh I know a lot of times I think when I talk to you Jenny you bring up Mounds View as quite a comparison sometimes when we talk so in our on our list and that would be something where you know where you know how we can get you know compare notes with somebody that size and where they're going and what are they doing as far as police fire and just understanding what everybody's doing would be great pick your kids I'd love to see the department director sit down and decide collaboratively what's the number one their opinion of the number one priorities for the city and the city's needs not individually get a couple of cops driving for that I think we did an excellent job last year when it came down to the end for additional assets for our staffing is concerned had all the department heads together um Brian and I will be conducting an all department head meeting talking cap and having them prioritize it everybody brings in a different perspective but we've got to come out of there with what's the best interest of the state I love it well they know the best to how things are so it's good to be able to pull some of that information John my Post-It note I'll sign it some money that sounds like anything yeah throw it away two no sorry now any additional yeah so um for me I would like to see some impact reports or data um on their operations how things are going um and then particularly and you like you had mentioned how much is a needle moving um especially for those most recent requests or the previous year's requests I like it I'd also like to know what collaborations some of the different departments are doing whether that's with another County or what have you just when we talk about resources and leveraging our resources that might be helpful interesting hers is definitely worth something I'm not feeling love on my side desk over here so if there's no other questions I want to thank you for a very good kickoff to the 2024 budget very insightful a lot of ideas a lot of food for thought for me develop and the information that we present to you in the future looking forward to working with all of you throughout this entire process it's a fun ride um councilmember Wong and councilmember Cole know how fun this can be so much fun it's a lot of fun and remember I do bribe a little bit with the food up front appreciate that but no you're going to be here for an hour and a half you deserve it we will end up having some specials some additional meetings to be able to get through the budget and dogged on it I'm losing everything but we'll end up having some some specials that we'll have end up having we'll probably that's how we'll probably do the department heads we'll split them up and then have it on a separate day we'll have half of them come in one and then the other half come in the other one the other day but we'll probably have to have a different time and maybe we started at whatever works well for you like at a 5 30 and and run until we conclude those and keep moving forward I have a clarification question so is that outside of the workshops is it would that be outside of this regularly scheduled workshops okay thanks for that clarification many of your workshops are pretty well packed and I mean I have no problem in going and talking until about 10 11 o'clock at night if you'd like to do that but um I don't think you want to it don't scare me shoot thank you very much thank you thanks Dan thanks man you helped me keep the toothpicks out of my eyes and we talk finances I sincerely appreciate the way you do it you can come all right do we get to keep the the Post-it notes and you can have it back are we good to call the meeting adjourned so we can uh during the meeting don't anybody call for this no move don't move council member second council member swears all in favor say aye run woman we were already I thought we were already done