[0:00] Joe Wicklund: hi everybody my name is joe wicklund i'm the communications director for the city of hermantown i'm joined by eric johnson our community development director and today we're going to talk about the community recreation initiative as a whole on the back end but our focus today will be on the hermantown connector trail system we'll walk through a little bit of the history of our trails a little bit of the overall ethos of what trails can do to a community like us and why it kind of fits for the recreation initiative and then what's possible in november in the vote and what's possible for trails whether that passes or doesn't pass going forward because again as we think about the three component projects the trail system the reimagining of ficner park and the possible addition of a second sheet of indoor ice there are [0:46] Joe Wicklund: three separate projects three separate questions which we'll cover during today's presentation but the trails are a little bit unique in that a portion of that system is already done before this initiative happened before the possibility of it so we'll have some q a at the end i've got a couple questions that folks have already asked before today's meeting started that i'll tee up for you but beyond that we'll kind of keep it quick and to the point here at the beginning and then dive into some q a at the end let me set up the presentation here [1:23] Joe Wicklund: and do you guys have that on the screen perfect and this will follow again the same format in mid-july uh eric and i as well as uh outside consultants who are doing the design work talked about the fickner field portion of the community recreation initiative today we're focusing on the hermantown connector trail system and then starting sometime in september we haven't set the date yet we'll have an arena focused meeting and then after that probably late september a couple in october even one right before the election we'll just have some broad open discussions about the community recreation initiative not necessarily kind of dialed in on one particular component project but [2:09] Joe Wicklund: questions and answers and uh interesting information that comes up related to all three in the project as a whole especially as we get closer to the vote what you see before you is the boulder trail so part of again what i mentioned is interesting about this particular component project is it is some percentage 25 26 of the hermantown connector trail is already done with the two plus 2.65 plus miles of older trailer to complete and a half mile from morris thomas road down to uh king creek park uh and so you can see the boulder trail there before it so as a city we've gotten really incredible positive feedback community-wide about about this trail the accessibility of it that it's [2:55] Joe Wicklund: available 365 days a year with a few exceptions as we keep it cleared in the winter that it provides some fantastic traffic free outdoor opportunities for walking biking hiking dogs all kinds of different things like that as something that our community which is a pretty active community has always wanted so if you think about the amount of phone calls we get at city hall that are positive it isn't many you wouldn't totally be surprised but 100 of the feedback we've gotten about the boulder trail has been fantastic so as we think about what's on the docket for november the local options sales tax referendum would allow 4.5 million to be dedicated for the trail system that is [3:41] Joe Wicklund: you know dangerously close if not close enough to complete it eric can talk a little bit more about that but makes us feel really comfortable that something that maybe is 10 15 years if not a generation or more out from completion through granting could be completed in the next three to five years um a discussion point that's been up pretty regularly and you might be aware of it there were possible changes to the amount of money for this project and all three projects as well as some clarification around the questions themselves on the ballot because it is three separate questions and they are a little wordy and not necessarily totally straightforward but the special session that governor [4:28] Joe Wicklund: walls could or might call is unlikely so the original amounts that were passed by the legislature and asked for by the city council uh are the amounts that are on the table the original questions that were approved are the questions that are slated for the ballot all of those questions are outlined on our website so you can see them there but it does pull out each project individually they are not only three separate ballot questions but even though we look at community recreation initiative and trying to impact the health and well-being and the health outcomes of all of southern saint louis county with all three of these projects they are three separate questions and three separate projects on the ballot so one two or three of these can pass they're [5:15] Joe Wicklund: not linked together it's not a if this then this and if this then this but the sales tax increase will be the same regardless it will be a half percent sales tax increase and that will even us up with duluth at uh the same sales tax as our largest neighbor the uh goal for the trail system and eric will dive a little bit into this but from a high view it was just simply to be able to connect safely outside of traffic patterns on the various parts of hermantown we're a small community with kind of pockets and so ideas like the wellness center and the school being able to be connected to city hall and our parks and the marketplace and being able to travel those places again by foot or bike without having to [6:02] Joe Wicklund: cross too many big roads was a real key part as i mentioned the boulder trail and a small portion leading into king creek opened last year and again the feedback on that has been resoundingly positive here at city hall eric's going to talk a little bit about the grants that were critical in opening the current portions those weren't done with property taxes either neither would the sales tax referendum so it would be a zero dollar impact on property taxes if this passes but as eric will mention future grants are an uncertain annual venture we've gotten a lot of credit statewide for the start of our trail program but it doesn't necessarily mean that the limited grant dollars will be ours to knock out a section you know each subsequent year that we'd like to have going forward [6:48] Joe Wicklund: so eric i'll turn over the next couple slides to you and you can walk us down the boulder trail [6:52] Eric Johnson: well that sounds great thanks joe as uh joe mentioned this has been coming on almost a decade that this whole uh basically trail master plan has been talked about from a city standpoint uh back in 2014 the city engaged consultant poison coagler to uh work with the cities of hermantown proctor in duluth to come up with a master plan and uh that happened over a course of essentially nine ten months back in 14 number of public meetings held at that time and uh would have been come out of that actual study or that master plan initially there was three different routes that were being looked at [7:34] Eric Johnson: throughout hermantown and down into duluth the ultimate goal was to create a trail system that would link hermantown proctor in duluth with the ultimate goal of connecting up to the munger trail system so that document's actually called the proctor hermantone monger trail spur so it's quite a mouthful that way we seem to like our home and town connector trail a little bit better that way as far as some uh some language but our both ourselves and proctor are looking at a half percent sales tax uh coming up in this voting session to uh hopefully realize you know at least a good portion the completion of this trail system so um back in 14 uh this master plan came into life envisioning uh basically as a preferred [8:20] Eric Johnson: route that would connect essentially the wellness center the school's area work its way through hermantown basically in a southeast tangent getting down into keene creek and at that portion time it would uh head straight west again get over to the boundaries of proctor uh from that point proctor would pick it up there's a little bit more of an urban type of trail system a lot more of this off-road type of trails is what they're envisioning just because of the nature of the city that we have that they have hermantown is lucky a good portion of where this trail is envisioned uh is either you know either through areas that are not developed right now or or slightly developed uh to date uh as joe had mentioned we've been able to construct [9:05] Eric Johnson: two segments uh there's essentially seven segments associated with this trail system um right now what's been built is the boulder trails that you see in front of us that connects steubner park uh down to hermantown road that's at the southern terminus right now with where the ingwes property used to be the city was lucky enough to obtain a grant through the greater minnesota regional parks and trails commission uh back in 2018. uh that grant was for eight hundred and twenty thousand dollars that could go towards the uh essentially the construction of this trail that you see before us uh as part of that the city uh did had to come up with 550 000 in matching grants in which we were able to do uh particularly in this boulder trail [9:51] Eric Johnson: section uh a vast majority of this boulder trail sits on top of a sanitary sewer line that the city constructed basically through 19 through 21. so except as mentioned a good portion that trails on top of that another trail segment that was able to be constructed with those grant dollars was from morris thomas road down to king creek park that's about a half mile section that exists right now today that's what you can see on the board right here that for the most part parallels keene creek and uh terminates right now down at the parking lot of king creek park uh it's eventually envisioned that this particular trail segment will continue uh down towards the south uh where it will then match up with uh there's an [10:36] Eric Johnson: existing power line corridor that exists basically along st louis river road at that point it heads west over to proctor that way as joe had mentioned grants are extremely competitive i mean we're lucky enough for the 820 000 through the greater minnesota grant and then we received a a smaller 50 000 grant from st louis county for uh accessibility and that's the actual trail that runs between the soccer fields right now over at stebner park and then through our partnership with st louis county they were able to pave uh just some uh basically ex wider sidewalk section along maple grove road from steubner road to the park so there's been a number of partnerships so far to date that have envisioned this you know [11:23] Eric Johnson: upwards of 2.5 miles of trails that we have currently in the city and the one nice thing about that is again as joe had mentioned is uh all those things were handled through uh the work on property taxes that way they're either from grant fundings or for uh basically sales tax that the city had available to uh to do some of this work so the city continues to go after grants for this work um so far since 16 since i've been here i think i'm maybe two for ten in getting these grants um like i said extremely competitive um we will continue to try to go after these but as joe said before under a grant scenario this could be a [12:10] Eric Johnson: career goal for joe and i versus if a sales tax initiative was passed this is something that all of a sudden can turn into maybe a three or five year period at that point so we could really greatly increase the timeline to get this trail system up and going so what you're seeing on the screen right now is this is for the most part a conceptual layout of how the trail system will go throughout the city um right now or actually starting next year on uggstead road the city is going to be doing a roadway reconstruction project so there will be a wider sidewalk anywhere from six to eight feet going from highway 53 down to that intersection at arrowhead [12:55] Eric Johnson: and um in oxide road right by the wellness center uh from that point uh this would then get more into this actual trail system that had been envisioned as part of the master plan at that point it would be a 10 foot wide trail uh once again generally progressing on a southeast quadrant eventually working its way over to city hall here we could see the city hall as a potential basically stopover area bike racks things like that associated with it and then the trail would start heading to the east over towards lightning drive in the city's industrial park and then where you see the red on this that's the existing trail system that's been built to date so far [13:42] Eric Johnson: so a good portion of basically the middle portion of this trail system has been completed so we're really looking as part of this initiative to work on this north and south ends associated with it to try to get this city-wide system of our trails that way and hook it over to proctor really set the table for them to pick it up from that point be able to work it through their community and get down into duluth so uh really so far i mean this is what you see in this map here is really the culmination of probably about five or six years worth of work from the city standpoint and once again depending on success of a recreation initiative you know we could maybe complete this in five years time or if if not uh we'd be looking for grant opportunities and it'll be a much longer time frame unfortunately [14:27] Joe Wicklund: and there are if i click back to this eric in the spot between you mentioned that you know originally our plan was to redo the augstad road project which would kind of cover up another section of this trail kind of the the section from highway 53 the area of the school the wellness center uh kind of down toward fichner park so we kind of have a pretty good idea that is going to end up that way and then there's also a section between north of keene creek but not not a full section but a few pieces where we have trail easements already in place um kind of between johnson and oakers trim road right [15:10] Eric Johnson: yep exactly that's what on this map you see king creek park just north of that that blue section uh the city has about half that right now under control from an easement standpoint [15:13] Eric Johnson: we've also had conversations with a potential developer on that southerly portion so there's really maybe only a quarter of this as you approach hermantown road that the city would need to engage uh potential property owners on that at least to create or to con complete that portion of the trail over on this the eastern side of the city uh right now to date uh the city has not engaged any other property owners for easements any work associated on these properties um that's something regardless that the city will be doing whether a recreation initiative passes or not because we'd like to at least get this easements these easements in place so as funds become available we're able to start basically taking down portions or [15:59] Eric Johnson: segments of this trail system [16:03] Joe Wicklund: so as folks are looking at the map there and and that it is a concept we're shooting for but not necessarily the exact location and obviously even if folks take a look at if they've been down the boulder trail they know that those red lines that we've got right there are not perfectly exact today so some questions that have come up at least on my side i'm going to throw three of them up there that one i've already mentioned and then two more that folks have been asked but our goal here is to be clear on the information to allow people to be in the best position to make the decision they want when they vote whether starting in early voting in late september all the way up to election day yes or no definitely is the choice [16:44] Joe Wicklund: of the residents but it is important to be as clear as possible on what you're actually voting on so the one of the big questions is will the sales tax increase be the same if one two or three pass and the answer is yes the only way that there won't be an increase in sales taxes if none of the three projects move forward but it will only be a half percent whether it is one two or three whether it is the park alone the park and the trails the park trails in the arena the arena in the park any combination of those it will just be the amount of time for which the sales tax would change that varies between each project but it is a 20-year sunset for all three per the state legislature [17:29] Joe Wicklund: this was really good and interesting information that i learned this week we commissioned the university of minnesota to perform a test or a study to determine how much of our sales tax is actually paid by residents and non-residents hermantown's a little bit of a unique community in that we are a smaller sized community but have some pretty significant big box retailers in us there aren't a lot of uh areas in minnesota that look quite like us and at least per we've got the data back from the study this week not yet the full study but at least 75 percent of our sales tax in hermantown is paid by non-residents so any amount of monies that come in on our sales tax from places like fleet farm and walmart and [18:15] Joe Wicklund: sam's club and menards as as kind of the big four one quarter of that is paid by hermantown residents and voters and three quarters of that is paid by non-residents so as folks are making a decision about the sales tax it's nice to have that information knowing that um for every you know four dollars that comes in in sales tax three of them are by non-residents at this point uh we'll dial those numbers in with the university of minnesota but they felt really comfortable that 75 would be a baseline that number might actually tick up a little bit as we wrap in those final numbers and again that a big key driver of that is our smaller population in relationship with the types of shopping and general contracting and building [19:00] Joe Wicklund: resources that we have in town in terms of purchase power and finally it's what does a half percent look like and feel like it could be a little bit hard to wrap your brain around but part of that discussion is actually the there's a significant amount of purchases you make that are sales tax ineligible you know groceries and clothing are not impacted by sales tax the same way other items are and that list is exhaustive we've got it outlined on our website right there there are a lot of pieces that are unique a new car does not have sales tax but some of the pieces you can put on your new car do so but our website outlines all that but if you do buy an eligible item if you're scoring some lumber at menards if you spent 100 it would now be 50 cents more expensive [19:48] Joe Wicklund: if one two or three of these pass that's kind of the best way to get a feel for the actual impact of that sales tax another way to look at it is is that will now be the same amount as you would pay for that lumber at menards in duluth they did a half percent uh sales tax increase i think within the last two years and theirs focus is on some road fixes and road reconstruction and pothole work that's pretty important in duluth uh obviously ours is going in a different direction focused on health wellness and community recreation the the uh connector trail system as a whole again is a unique part of these uh three component projects in that a chunk of it already exists and like [20:34] Joe Wicklund: eric said and we'll probably talk about this more in q a that we're in the process of finishing it it's more how many years out could it be it could be three to five if the sales tax initiative passes in november it could be 30 to 50 if we continue to chunk it out on grants and that's just again the nature of it eric said two for ten you should know that that's actually a really that's a good batting average for a community development director going after those grants because of the demand on it so so we've been lucky and eric's worked really hard to get us the pieces we've had and again the feedback on those has been astounding so at this point i'll open it up to other questions other thoughts that folks have other pieces that you're wondering about [21:19] Joe Wicklund: and it doesn't have to be limited to the trail system you can ask about other component projects other parts of the community recreation initiative the mechanics of the voting anything that we can do to help you out mike go ahead [21:38] Mike (Public): [Question regarding project outcomes and priorities if only some projects pass] [21:53] Joe Wicklund: you know if one or two or three or some mix of these does or doesn't pass what happens and obviously the ones that pass we begin work on and and that uh you know if we use the trails as the example there's still a lot of work to be done on easements exact locations that so it's not like we'll have brand new trails you know totally in 2023 but we'll be able to time frame those really specifically for the projects that don't pass that's kind of it they don't happen um you know i can use the trails as the example where we would continue to do the work that we're doing you know eric working on grants uh all of us putting ourselves in the best position to be able to get different types of funding um for different sections as they come [22:38] Joe Wicklund: available um and and that work won't stop but it won't be very quick that's kind of the change [22:45] Eric Johnson: yeah i think an actual kind of jump in on that is is i'm the liaison to the park board and traditionally all this work in the past has really been generated by park board dollars or grants that way we have put together um a master plan for fitner park that you can see in this packet here and that's projected at about 3.9 million dollars for that right now with park dedication we bring in 40 000 a year that's essentially for each new home that's constructed the city gets eleven [23:24] Eric Johnson: hundred dollars in park dedication so as joe was saying you know three to five years could turn into 30 or 40 years if some of these things don't happen the the trails are a little bit easier because there are grant dollars out there but once again this is the highly competitive nature of it we'll definitely spread out that time frame uh the arena i i can't even begin to talk about with that [24:08] Joe Wicklund: yeah on the park side of things i think that you know like eric said we'll continue to chip away at it with those limited park dedication fees and the arena is a it's kind of a different entity i think um there it that that kind of work because the city doesn't isn't involved right now in hockey at all other than a 3 000 [24:10] Joe Wicklund: water grant that we give them to water that same thing we do for baseball and and for soccer um that we just would kind of not be getting in the business of hockey or getting in the world of hockey um the way that we're already in the world of parks with fichner park and the way that we're obviously already in the trail world [24:26] Eric Johnson: and that's the nice thing about both the the parks and the trails is at least let's say neither one of those passes since there's multiple either segments with the trails or pieces associated with the park except you do have the ability to pick off smaller things associate with this fickner park you could replace some batting cages you could replace some dugouts things like that a wholesale rebuilding of a field [24:57] Eric Johnson: that's a harder animal to take care of without without the sales tax that way trails once again you know since there's seven different trail segments you could start looking at says okay funds available now let's do segment seven to try to connect the dots that way but even though when i first started we were originally projecting trail costs at about a hundred dollars a lineal foot and just obviously the way things have gone these last couple years it's it's approaching almost 200 a lineal foot now in some of the areas like when we went through stebner park easy only had to cut down about a foot foot and a half bring in some base work pave it you're good to go uh the work in king creek park uh we went down 15 feet because the soils we couldn't find the [25:42] Eric Johnson: bottom it just kept on going through bad soils and so some segments will be harder than others there's no doubt about it but um you know we'll attempt to keep doing what we can do with the funds available and go from there [25:56] Joe Wicklund: there's an interesting twist too on your question um which is specific to trails say ours doesn't pass just use that as the example and proctors does so proctor's uh system would connect to the munger trail and work its way north if you were coming from the monger and kind of stop at our border and and that might re-prioritize that section higher for us or not depending on grant dollars granters might look at that favorably and and want to get us uh grant dollars sooner they might not they might look at [26:28] Joe Wicklund: us unfavorably you had this chance to complete the whole section so they might look at it differently so so a lot of those pieces are up in the air the converse is we could finish you know this could pass 50 plus one or more in the fall and we would have you know a runway of knowing that the next three to five years we could finish it and proctors could fail and then we would have kind of that gap between where we hand it off to proctor and you get to the monger but at least the hermantown piece would be done and eric correct me if i'm wrong but even kenosha township's done not to the same degree but some planning on kind of being able to come over to the intersection at 53 and there was some work done on that to make that slightly more um you know crossing friendly for people too [27:13] Eric Johnson: exactly their goal is they want to get over 53 with the levate bypass over there and then basically connect up into um into kenosha their ultimate goal is as well is to get to our border so they can hook up hopefully into our system and really get to the wellness center that's something that they see is a great benefit to their community and so uh they've been very appreciative of what we've been able to accomplish and then just with this work on unsaid road that we're going to be doing uh over the next couple years that will help at least once again kind of set that table for at least kenosha to be able to uh join us as well [27:42] Joe Wicklund: go ahead mike [27:43] Mike (Public): and then just look at that so i'm going to say all three pass first of all what is what is your guess how much would you come in on during [Inaudible] that will take [28:35] Joe Wicklund: so it's a really good question mike i'm gonna rephrase it for the recording but the question is what if all three pass how would we you know order of importance things what what happens and the good news to your question is is we don't it doesn't operate that way that we have to choose so i'm going to back up eventually to your answer the dollars and cents but we then can bond for the entire amount so we can start construction for lack of better term that'll look different on all three projects but we can start immediately so definitely like you said not not going to build half an arena and wait for the money and half an arena and part of a baseball field we'll be able to kind of look at all three of these uh and tackle them now that that doesn't mean that they'll all be completed at the same time or they'll all be completed kind of [29:21] Joe Wicklund: in the same manner because they are three kind of unique entities and how it works actually if i had to guess i think the trail system is has got the likelihood of being done before before the other projects because we've had some success doing those but there isn't uh you don't have to wait because we don't have to wait for the money to be in pocket so to speak now to back up to the nuts and bolts of that right now without this sales tax in place just the half percent we have that funds things like this building and some infrastructure pieces the essential wellness center we make that the city generates about 3.3 million in sales tax each year there's been some variation in that which you'd expect during the pandemic but not [30:07] Joe Wicklund: nearly the type of variation that makes us feel uncomfortable about budgeting for the next half percent uh kevin orme our uh director of finance and and ehlers who at the national level kind of pair with us to make sure that we don't you know bite off more than you can chew as a city in doing this has always really been impressed at how for lack of better term truly conservative we are when we make these types of choices and so the wellness center is a good example entirely driven by sales tax that that window is likely to be able to be paid off years and years in advance of what was originally budgeted for because those numbers on the sales tax side are are as high as they've been this uh additional half percent would generate roughly 1.4 million [30:54] Joe Wicklund: annually but again we wouldn't have to wait to spend it 1.4 at a time we'd bond for it and kind of pay those bonds back and be able to get going on those projects i would again you know by the letter of the law with sunset in 20 years if all three passed but i would i would bet based on our sales tax experience with the wellness center that it would it would beat that mark again and we would be in under 20 years and be able to sunset it sooner there have been some changes to the laws on how sales tax works in each one of our projects projects like this building projects like the wellness center and should these projects pass so there's different stipulations on how those sales taxes can be used and when they have to sunset so the the upcoming referendum is more [31:41] Joe Wicklund: clear than any of the other previous sales taxes as that hard sunset and i bet we we get done before the 20-year mark if all three pass but that's if all three pass if none pass like you said it's you know none of these projects or the needs or the community members that are driving them go away it's just how do we how do we solve these in totally different ways great question thank you other thoughts or questions about trails projects or anything related to this that um [32:31] Mike (Public): [Inaudible question regarding field drainage and raising field levels at Fickner Park] [32:51] Joe Wicklund: yeah so part of the the question mike asked is what part of of making that more functional is to raise what folks here call field one or the main baseball field to bring it up a little bit so that it's not as underwater in the spring and there's kind of two versions that exist right now there's the base line version that is met by the 3.9 million dollars that would be raised by the sales tax and the power of people's vote and that would allow that field to be raised and turfed and there'd be a couple other amenities like a new skate park new sport court new playground equipment put in there as well and then there's certainly a more all of the parts included model that would include some uh philanthropic pieces beyond the power of the vote that [33:17] Joe Wicklund: folks may or may not be adding but that's a to be determined so but that's a good question i know that eric i'll let you dive in on it [33:23] Eric Johnson: yeah right now they're projecting anywhere from 18 inches to three feet because they have to bring in a whole new sub system of granular material drainage etc that way so i've been hearing projections upwards of almost even three feet so that's what will make it interesting you know assuming the fickner piece passes and how much monies are available because the big thing we want to be cognizant of is obviously accessibility within the park try to salvage what we can from the parking lot standpoint [34:03] Eric Johnson: and really be able to kind of make this work in there i mean right now there's there's not a lot of top topographic change throughout the park that way it's relatively pretty flat and that's been the issue too why it doesn't drain very well and so um you know at least you know there's been conceptual plans done and at least just from some you know cross sections generated uh our city engineer has worked on these type of fields in the past in other communities so they have a really good understanding of what will need to be done and i said i've been hearing anywhere from 18 inches to probably up to three feet increase for that [34:46] Eric Johnson: yeah be part of it uh right now there's no stormwater ponds out there so as part of the plan there'll be stormwater ponds also and then uh but right now it's it would probably have a little bit more positive drainage going at least towards the scotch the creek or the middle part in the area right now and uh so yeah i mean we will have to look at this thing holistically how it's going to work out considering that there'll be a you know a market raising of that particular field [35:10] Joe Wicklund: and i think it's two parts in terms of that if you think about field one because one it'll be the plan is it would be flipped so it would get used differently and that would create space beyond the outfield which is currently the infield to be able to have some stormwater ponds to handle drainage kind of in that direction and then the design pieces of the [35:32] Joe Wicklund: remainder of the park would be we're not going to try and just move what is a current right field and infield issue on field one to another field what can we do with drainage throughout that through landscaping and through the new design of field one to make sure that the park as a whole works [35:58] Eric Johnson: and like you said that you know we could probably have start having the ability of almost like quartering up that parkland for lack of better words that field one right now is like this but as joe said it flips and now we have some positive drainage going towards that intersection where a potential stormwater pond would be you know in that case on this back side yes it'll be a little bit higher do we look at you know how does that then translate to the rest of the park are [36:18] Eric Johnson: there ramps are there walls things we have to do with it i mean those are some more details that we'd dive into but the same thing i mean a big part of this is not only that the baseball field but just you know accessibility within the park and you know new elements there the basketball courts playground etc you know those sort of things that we want that are part at least what we call the base plan right now as well and to centralize those a little bit because field one's a little bit unique in that you're kind of away from the park if you're watching the games on those pieces and it's not particularly convenient you know if you have a young child who's playing game and a younger child who needs the playground equipment so this would be a little bit smarter design you know and make them park more usable for people doing more than one thing at the park [37:05] Joe Wicklund: and in essence we've talked about it a little bit it would get us you know it might not be a full-blown central park the way people dream about a central park but it would get us a significant step closer to kind of having that type of outdoor gathering space that we don't don't necessarily have as a community the same way unless you're you're drawn into that park for a particular reason this might be a little bit more uh of a reason to make it a community gathering space outside of baseball [37:40] Joe Wicklund: any other questions that we can help out with well certainly appreciate those who are joined online and those who are here in council chambers again we put one of these together for the fickner park project in july we've got the trails today we'll have an arena one in september and then there'll be some overall community recreation initiative informational meetings scattered throughout september october and november leading up to to the vote thanks so much everybody for being here today