Hey, hey, hey. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Paul Tampa City Council back to order. Hope everybody had a good lunch. Roll call please. >> Miranda >> here. >> Mano >> here. >> Herac here. >> Vieira Carlson >> here. >> And Clint Dennon >> here. We have a form. >> Thank you. We have two items of business. Um we're going to start with uh we had a time certain for item number 69. Uh staff to present a monthly report quarterly in person otherwise written reports on the update of the status of fire station 24 to include and then it goes on. So uh chief Hey Tim. >> Oh yeah, we don't have >> Oh, stack reports. We don't really need Marty. Yeah, just wanted to drop it. Perfect. >> Good afternoon, council. Barbara, Trip, Fire Chief for Tech Fire Rescue. Of course, we're here to uh present and give you information as far as an update on station 24. I have the project manager here as well. and I'll let him introduce himself. And we were able I don't know if um CTV was able to put it up, but we can present it on the um >> CTTV if you have it up. Well, I we've got something here. Yeah, looks like we do. So, if you could put the uh presentation up on the chambers large screens, that'd be great. >> Broadcast. There we go. >> Okay, great. Well, thank you all very much. Uh again, my name is Ken Gad. I'm a senior director with Collier's project leaders. We're the project manager uh for this uh fire station 24 project. Uh again, this was just uh kind of talking about the core team of the project on this first slide. And um as we get into this um latest update, just want to talk a little bit about some of the key milestones that were met this last since we last spoke. First of which was the schematic design phase. Uh the plan updates for schematic design were completed on uh actually a little bit ahead of schedule on uh the 2nd of September. The tree mitigation survey has been completed. We have power line relocation discussions ongoing with TICO. If you recall, we have power lines on site that we're trying to see if we can get those buried. So those options are being weighed on right now and and discussed. I think the preferred option by all would be to bury those lines. And so we're we're making sure that we have that continue on that conversation with uh with Chico. Vacating Alkalu Avenue, the right of way was ongoing, but I heard today that everything was passed. So good news and um we'll continue marching forward based on that. So that'll basically combine these two parcels into one uh which will be good for the project. Talking a little bit about the design and the update on the design, here's this latest site plan. Um the three large green circles that you see denoted on here are actually the grand trees. They're on the grand list and we're showing all those trees being uh saved and being kept on site. And so there's tree mitigation in and protection on on within the contract documents that will be carried forward to ensure that those trees are not damaged in any way for any due to any construction activities. Uh as spoken uh last time, we did and we have been able to eliminate the underground drainage structures that were a big part of the cost of the project. And uh if you look directly to the right to the uh east side of the of the uh plan that you see before you, all those lines mean that there's a depression there. That's where the the storm water mitigation will actually happen. It was in that sedimentation retention pond to the eastern side of the property. Just again to orient yourself, uh we access the property through the far western uh side of the of the plan up the driveway. There's a security gate that allows access to the to the uh team uh the fire station team only. There's four um parking spots immediately to the right as you enter. Those are for visitor parking. You enter through the security gates, come around the back of the building. That's where you'll have entrance and ingress into the apparatus bays. and then those apparatus will exit and egress through the south part of that apparatus bay again uh back on East White. Um one of the requested items was to discuss the the percentage of imperous service. Uh that is actually currently calculated at 42% of uh impervious service ratio. If there's additional information that you would like on that, we can absolutely get that from our civil engineer and uh get that over to the council. Here's the updated um floor plan. Couple of key notes here on the floor plan. We've been able to reduce square footage and we're going to continue, as we've talked about before, to make this a more efficient plan to continue to look to try to reduce square footage where it seems prudent without compromising program. Uh this floor plan, as it's currently constituted, will be able to uh accommodate 11 firefighters, two captains, one lieutenant, one district tree uh district chief, excuse me. And that's at three shifts. So there'll be three shifts. there can be three shifts of of all of those components uh carried forward uh that that will that'll be accommodated within this within this plan. Currently, the gross square footage is at 17,213 gross square feet. Uh the last iteration of this plan that you saw, we were at 19,800 gross square feet. So, obviously, we've been able to shrink that square footage down considerably. And the original gross square footage on the original SNA, the space needs assessment was 24,135 gross square feet. So, we've uh been able to really um make this a much more efficient plan and reduce the square footage uh which will then turn into savings on the construction side. The next four slides are the exterior renderings and again these are just uh graphic representations what the what the building is going to look like. There will be some more iterations. Again, this is schematic design phase. So, um as we go through design, development into construction documents. Um this will be again um more enhanced as we go forward. The colors may change slightly depending on what the reaction is to the to the team etc etc. But by and large this is this is what you'll see from the southwest of of the building. Uh the southeast is on the next slide looking at the apparatus bays. Then this is the back side of the building where you'll see the exterior uh area for the uh physical agility space, outdoor physical agility space as well as outdoor dining area. Um and then the back of the building which is again looking at the ingress side now of the of the vehicle apparatus bay project schedule. We are currently actually a little ahead of schedule right now. We're going to keep working to improve those dates. We talked about that uh again the last time we met. There's several options and several things that we're going to look at as we continue to march this project from schematic design into design development that we're going to continue to work towards. Some of those have actually already started to uh show um come to fruition. One of those is the use of tiltup wall construction in this early design. We talked about doing that at the last meeting. It could it will definitely save on construction time. We'll know a little bit more how much time it'll save as we get into what's one of the upcoming milestones, which is the constructibility and construction estimate for schematic design, which is due uh the middle of October. That'll be where now the construction manager gets to take a look at the plans, gets to put some numbers to it, gets to put some timeline to it, and um we'll be able to again work to reduce both of those numbers as we keep marching forward. It's just a good barometer as we work through the schematic design phase. So the schematic design phase in completion which will include the construction estimate and the constructibility review will be complete um by the end of October 1024 to be exact. And then we begin design development which is again further design enhancements further design um specifications that ultimately will coales to a full set of construction documents after the construction phase which is the subsequent phase. design development plans and those plan updates will be completed on or about the uh 9th of December. Uh we are going to continue to work to reduce uh the owner uh review times and review times have been have been very very swift with uh with TFR and their team and we're going to continue to work to reduce permitting durations, work to reduce some of the d design durations and still continue to look at early enabling work and see if we can push to get something that's uh actually out in on site early. And that will be uh telling as we get into this first constructibility review. We're really going to get into some of those uh conversations in in more uh more finer detail, granular detail during this constructability review. So, with that uh if the council has any questions, more than happy to answer them. >> Councilman Vieira, >> thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, sir, for your um presentation. I appreciate it. I appreciate your hard work. Chief Trip, your hard work, Mr. Mutterbback who I was uh talking to outside your hard work and uh local 754 uh pushing for this as well and everybody I I really really appreciate it. Um quick question sir when do you do we have an amended date for groundbreaking if I recall and didn't sleep a lot last night for some reason. Um and so I think it was September of 26 I believe. Is that still the rough date? So that's still what they're showing in their schedule, but this initial constructibility and cost estimate that's going to happen in October, that's going to hopefully pull that date back. And so we'll have a better estimate on schedule after that constructability review. >> Thank you, sir. And how much time do you think that'll shave off? Just so I mean, I'm not going to hold you to it, by the way. >> Well, we're hopeful that it's going to shave off a considerable amount of time considering that we're going into tilt wall construction now. We're hopefully it's going to shave off weeks, not days off of that schedule. hopefully months if if uh we can push to get that >> and and thank you for that, sir. And and I was speaking to Mr. Mutterbach who is saying what a great job uh you've done and what a valuable asset you've been in and helping Chief Trip and and everybody on this. So, thank you very much for that. And when do you think it'll be um accordingly then ready to open and everything? A little bit of time off that you think or >> Yeah. Well, exactly. So, we're going to get that again that grand opening that that um ribbon cutting pulled back at least as the same kind of duration as the the early onsite getting in groundbreaking. So, wherever we can pull back the time, it's hopefully going to be reflective throughout all the other the rest of the duration of the construction >> and again looking at different aspects of being able to get that pulled back as much as possible. >> Thank you very much, sir. And I think it's 27. I'll be out of here, but whoever council picks as my replacement, I guess, and then maybe the voters pick, they'll they'll be here. And I know it'll be a great celebration and everything. But, you know, so th this is very important because it it places the last three fire stations in the city of Tampa have been in North and New Tampa, the area that we're in, you know, for this. This is North Tampa. We have 23 that was in New Tampa for uh the Grand Hampton area. Uh you have 25 that is you know sulfur springs that is geared towards north Tampa to help out with station 13. One of the first things we worked on with Chief Trip with then uh Chief Drip and then then Joe Greco I think was the head of the uh union back then if I recall. And so this is going to you know finish what you started so to speak uh on this with um and helping out North Tampa. I've you know I think I last went to station 13 on Labor Day and and they and they're doing better, thank God, which is great. I mean, they they see the difference with station 25 and and and helping them out with um response times and workload and everything like that. I always say, you know, I I I we have not to talk politics, but we have an election coming up for mayor. And um obviously I I'm not running for mayor. I'm not running for a a city office next or anything of that nature. Just as somebody that cares a lot for, you know, Tampa Fire Rescue, I really hope that we have a very robust discussion in that election uh on fire stations. I I think that is so important for the next administration to really really hit that issue very hard. Um I know we're working on um the um the uh fleet maintenance and and moving that out of Station 9 to help expand um uh room in station 9 to assist with expansion for growing West Tampa. Uh, I I maintain that we need additional investments in New Tampa and like I talked about at the budget hearing downtown Tampa. So, I really hope that that is a big discussion because this should just be the beginning. Again, I've stated my position many times, including my disagreement with the administration on fire stations. Um, but I'm just glad to see this happen and um and glad to see that that that you know, you're getting in. Again, that's that's you know, everybody has their function and um I'm an attorney. I'm a very good I'm good in court. I'm good in depositions, this and that. You give me legal research, I will give it to a point Dexter, you know what I mean? So, everybody has their strengths at things and that's just the way it is. So, we appreciate you're coming in and and just helping folks out because I think that's important. Um, so that's it. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Chief, Mr. Mutterbach, everybody. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. >> Absolutely. Councilwoman Herk, >> thank you. And, uh, thank you, Councilwoman Vieira, for those points. I the the questions about the timeline were mine as well, but I'm going to go to the other side and I heard you say savings and when I heard savings, um that's definitely something uh that you mentioned that there's no longer a vault. We've moved it. So, in that October update, will we also have an update on the savings? >> That's correct. So, the intent is to have a construct a construction budget back from the contractor. Okay. That'll give us an estimate of where we're standing at with construction and we'll we'll continue to look at value management as we work forward to get that number back down as we're continue on to the next phase. The intent is is that we see the number now hopefully it's good. We work to get it down more and more and more design development. It's going to happen again. We're going to get another constructability review. We're going to get another construction estimate. Likewise, in construction document phase, we're also going to get the same thing. So, we're going to have three different cost estimates between now and the time it actually goes and they actually start putting it out on the street with their subcontractors. So, the intent is is to be very very comfortable with the number before they're they're released to go. So, there's no surprises come the time that we get numbers back from the subcontractors that we're ready to start digging immediately. >> Okay, great. And that's that's very good. And I'm looked at the floor plan and I have to say uh the last time I was up to visit my mother uh I was able to get into um fire station number one for Gainesville Fire Rescue or fire department. Their rescue is different. Um and they I got a great tour and they told me of stuff that was awesome and stuff that did not work. So, I still have not had a chance to talk to Chief Drip about it, but I will because there are definitely things um that I see on this site plan that were best practice for that station. Um and so I would love to talk a little bit more. I can't really see super clear on this. So, I would love to have a conversation. I'm so sorry during lunch I wasn't able to come down. So, I would like to do that. And on the note of um you know building more fire stations, I was just at station four on Monday uh all day to uh to see what four and 10 were like together. And while it works because station 4 just happens to have the room for that. Um yeah, station 10 really we we I mean and we can't start that until fleet and supply is done. So my other question to you or I guess to chief trip or even to Mr. Mutterbach is is he available to help with fleet and supply? >> I'll say yes for my own. >> Spoken like a contractor. >> I know this is off the record, but I'm going to bribe him to stay around. >> Okay. Well, because I mean this this sounds great and the way you're able to move forward and help um Chief Trip who has so much on her plate uh to be able to um because fleet and supply is going to be the same thing. We're going to have the needs. Um my my other only concern about this and again I can talk offline about it is I while I understand there's enough room for 11 firefighters and the the um the folks who are in charge of them like is there room for growth because four bays means a lot of people I mean you got to have a so so I just I'm curious about that as well and I want to make sure that while we are value engineering for space we are also thinking about ways that that sp space might need be reconfigured if we ended up needing more um bodies in that space. >> Before you answer that question, I want to expand on that because that was my going to be my point as well. With all of the expansion we see happening at USF and the claw redevelopment and f what the reimagineering of of Fowler, we anticipate a lot of increased density up there. So with that what councilwoman her just said how does this play in and is that anticipated in this design? >> So I'll speak on part of it. So Barbber trip fire chief that was my whole plan of building this station because currently right now station 24 the the resources that's there is an engine and a rescue. Okay. with North Tampa growing with the stadium coming with all of that being developed that's why I needed a for bay to predict for growth so just like now you went to station 4 the and road was station 4 and we're putting a lot of resources I mean just like station one I don't have room for rescue sit so I had to put it somewhere so that is that station there is is basically looking for the future because we're going to have to add more the city is growing the population isre increase, you know, incidents is happening. So, that was the whole point of making sure that we have room to put um another engine or another rescue car, whatever resource that we need for whatever is going on in that area, whether it be a ladder truck, you know, or a chief or whatever the case may be. And that was the whole purpose of having four bays there. >> Okay. So, what you're saying is that not all of these like dorm spaces will be full immediately. So, okay. So, so this is for ghost. So that was what I was asking because I did notice that and I you know we talked about it while I was at station 4. I mean 10's engine is outside because there's no room for it because they actually even though they have enough bays those hold other important apparatus. So and and that's where they live uh because of the proximity to um the port and to other areas. So so it's always interesting to be at station 4 for that reason. But >> and that's another thing because you know it was fire department now we've become fire rescue. We've added more resources to these stations that are 65 years old. So we need to grow the stations as well. >> Absolutely. And I just uh again want to say publicly how much I um always enjoy the ride alongs. Um I learn a lot and uh just got to see new stuff uh that every time I go I see something new and that's why I love the ride alongs with both police and fire. I learn a lot. So, uh, just want to be able to to say, uh, that publicly that how much I I learn and respect all the folks who do that work. So, thank you for for everything. Thank you. >> So, the plan is uh this is built for expansion and collocation for for rescue and fire. So, yes, sir. That's right. >> And so, you're and you're comfortable with the size of this scale that great. One one quick question. And I this could have been done with a phone call, but I'm curious because you know we get there's fire stations being built freaking everywhere, right? I mean because especially in Florida with the growth, why is that why are they all specific? Why don't we have like a turnkey design? Why can't we just buy a set of plans and build a fire station >> land? >> But I mean this is kind of a simple this there's nothing really complex about this. Yeah, I mean it's sometimes it's it's dependent on what the use of that particular fire station might be, what kind of apparatus it has, the support staff that needs to be there, whether it's a um full-time firefighters, part-time firefighters, whether they stay there, whether you know it's a it's a bunch of different aspects. I think Chief can probably talk more about it, but I think I think it's it's a lot to have just a kind of a I think NFPA if they could, they would absolutely have a here's a perfect fire station, take this and build this. >> Model A for this density, model B, model C, model D. >> That's right. That's right. And they >> just doesn't exist anywhere. These are all custom. >> Not Not that I know of. I mean, I'm sure there's I'm sure there's architects that have that ability to be able to just pull out of their out of their portfolio and say, "We've used this and we've basically done it in five different locations, >> right? Yeah, I just I because I mean I we get emails from the president of the of 754 and we see these fire stations being built. I go, gosh, surely there's got to be like turnkey models of these things. Councilman Carlson, >> my name's not Shirley. >> Shirley. Sorry, >> I'm the funniest. >> It's an old joke. >> Yeah. None of these new none of the young people all because you know, our audience is usually the demographic of like 18 to 24. Um, thank you. Thank you to Chief Trip and everyone who's working on this. And special thanks to um, Council Member Vieira. Um, this has been uh, maybe a six six or more year, seven-year um, at least almost the whole time I've been on council project that council member Vieier's uh, leading. The one thing I want to say is for the the hardworking men and women of fire rescue and for the neighborhoods who want us to put more resource and deploy more resources. The idea was that we all got behind this one. It's not in my district, but but we but I support it. My colleagues support it because we have a whole queue of things that we have to get through. This one has taken years and years. And I'm hoping that once this is done that we can move the backlog of other things that we all on council and and you know firefighters and neighborhoods would like. And so um I hope that this will be the beginning of of many positive things to come. Thank you. >> Thank you. Anything else? >> I had a quick question. >> Go ahead. >> Council message >> which I sent to my public uh email by the way. um if they could make this presentation available on base. Just somebody had asked me that. Um minute. >> Yeah. >> And I was going to say oh it was funny. I was laughing when Council Herac was talking about doing the ride alongs. I always laugh Chief Trip of when you let me pretty much spend the night at station 13. Looking back I'm like man I'm shocked you let me do that you know. So especially me because I'm so damn clumsy. So I'm I'm a I'm a risk liability. So that's all. But just still I always appreciate that. I was just reminded me I guess but that's all. Thank you. >> Very good. Okay. Well, thank you for the great report. We appreciate it. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Okay, here we go. We are >> a pretty picture. >> What of me? >> Did Guido take that one? >> Is that what you're looking at? Okay, we are I'd like to hear a motion to open the 1:30 public hearings. We have a motion from Councilman Escal, a second from Councilman Randall. Those in favor say I. Oppose. The eyes have it. Okay, that we are on item number 63. If you are here in the audience today to uh provide testimony or speak on item 63, please stand, raise your right hand, and be sworn in by the clerk. or affirm that testimony that you are about to provide nothing but truth. >> Thank you. >> Who's going to kick us off? >> Good afternoon. Kamari Pettismackle from the legal department. Um item number 63 is regarding file number FDN 2536. Um Mr. Shelby uh should be handling handing out um the code section 27-61 and the recommended order regarding this matter. But I took the liberty to um explaining the code section and where we are and what city council's role is today. I took the liberty of uh doing a breakdown of the code section of 27-61 on an Elmo on the on a PowerPoint presentation that will be showing on the wolf. So, if I could just have access to the wolf, >> it should self-activate when you throw it down there. >> Once they click the switch, >> may I proceed? >> Yes. >> Okay. Um as uh indicated um this matter is before you to consider the recommended order by the hearing officer who conducted the denovo review hearing regarding this matter. Um so the denovo re review hearing already took place. That's not what we're here for. We're just here for city council to consider take action regarding the recommended order. And as outlined in code section 27-61 subsection J1E 3 little I um city council may adopt the recommended order as final, reject the recommended order in its entirety or modify the recommended order. The final order according to code section 27-61 subsection J1E30 a little I city council may not reject or modify any findings of fact reached by the hearing officer and that's important because it's outlined in the code you can't change his findings of fact and it also provides um additional information if you think um that further factf finding is needed you could always mod you could always remand this matter back to the hearing officer officer for further factf finding. Also, code section 27-61 subsection J1E3 little I states, "If city council rejects or modifies conclusions of law, you must state with particularity in the final order your reason for uh modifying or rejecting any conclusions of law. And you must make and you must state that your finding that its substitution of a conclusion of law is as or more reasonable than which was rejected or modified. This is the language straight from the code. So I'm not trying I'm not mod I haven't modified anything. This is exactly how it appears in the code. So that's what you're tasked with to this afternoon is accepting the recommended order, modifying the recommended order, or rejecting the recommended order. Um I will say that there were um some exceptions that were filed um by the petitioner um regarding this matter. Code section 27-61 subsection J subsection 1D3 little I addresses the exceptions. Um exceptions shall consist of any objections to the finding of fact or conclusions of law contained in the recommended order. The exceptions must identify the disputed portion of the recommended order. And if the exceptions is based on testimony presented at the hearing, then the person filing the exception uh must provide a transcript of the proceeding or a video recording of it. There was also a request made for oral argument regarding this matter. And again, the oral argument um portion of the code the is also it's in your packet that I gave you um about oral argument. It also gives if you choose to give oral argument, it's on page two and page three of the handout. But here's the information regarding oral arguments. Code section 2761 subsection J1EE 2 little I. City council may only open the meeting for oral argument if city council finds the hearing officer did not address a matter introduced into the record or the record recommended order contains an ambiguity. If city council allows oral argument, you may limit such or oral argument to addressing only those matters for which it open for oral argument. So you can if you decide to open for oral argument, you can limit what the oral argument is about. Um Mr. Shelby shall review, this is the one time that city council attorney is outlined in the city of Tampa code. Uh Mr. Shelby shall review the request for oral argument and make a recommendation to city council on whether or not the request for oral argument argument meets the criteria. Um but I just want to emphasize reemphasize the purpose of today's hearing is just to consider the recommended order. This is not a review hearing part two and this is not a denovo hearing. This is just to consider the recommended order. And with that I'll turn it over to Mr. Shelby. >> Mr. Shelby. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of city council. Martin Shelby, city council attorney. As Miss Pettis Mel says, I have the distinct honor of having this provision in the code um which um I have had the opportunity to review the exceptions to the recommended order and the um request for oral argument. And what I'd like to do so that I ensure that you have it in front of you is to um distribute again uh the exceptions to the recommended order that have been filed by councel for the um um applicant or petitioner and also the request for oral argument. So then what you have in front of you is a full set of items to be able to refer to uh most importantly the recommended order itself which is attached which was attached to the resolution setting this hearing from the outset. So your comments relating to this decision have to refer specifically to that recommended order. Again this is not a denovo hearing. This is not a review hearing. This is based uh solely on the recommended order and then what you have in front of you are exceptions to that and you have uh the request for oral argument council. After reviewing the uh request for an oral argument uh I cannot make a recommendation uh that this request for oral argument meets the criteria. But the discussion doesn't end with that determination. It is still council and I want to reiterate what council's role is in this case. You may only and this code is very strict. Your subject and your task here unlike a denovo review hearing is very limited and council has had previous experience with this. So let me just state again for the purposes of the record. A city council may only allow public discussion upon a request for oral argument filed by a party or upon its own motion. City council may only open the meeting for oral argument. Let me repeat that. City Council may only open the meeting for oral argument if the city council finds, referring now to the recommended order, that the hearing officer did not address a matter introduced into the record or the recommended order contains an ambiguity. And again, that is a required to be a finding of city council before you would allow oral argument uh upon motion. If city council allows oral argument, city council may limit such oral argument to addressing only those matters for which it opened oral argument. Now, having done this, I just want to state that in the event the city council, and again, I'm reading directly from the uh the code uh subsection 3. In the event city council approves the request for oral argument, the content of the testimony shall be the same as the content of testimony submitted verbally or in writing to the hearing officer. If council permits oral argument, it shall allow staff and each party up to 10 minutes for oral for oral presentation or argument. Non-party participate participants may be permitted oral argument presentation or argument up to three minutes. No person may submit new evidence to the city council during oral argument and all persons must uh confine their presentations to evidence made part of the record. And again, you've heard from uh the uh uh the uh assistant city attorney. And again, depending on what council's uh uh direction is, we will go through what it takes to um uh to get to a final order in this case. >> It looks to me like we should take about 15 minutes to read the findings of fact. I was going to say, can we just have five minutes? >> I'm going to I'm going to suggest 15 because I suggest council review the findings of fact which is three conclusions of law which is four and then the exceptions uh to the recommendations order filed by the petitioners so that we could assess this assess the case. >> Certainly if that's council's pleasure I I >> we can't leave. >> I don't think we should leave. >> You just want to stay here then and stay in stay in session. We'll stay we'll stay in session and just just so people know we're going to sit up here for 15 minutes and read >> your 15 minutes. >> Okay. Well, if everybody if you signal that you're done and are comfortable to proceed and if I get everybody's hand, we'll uh or just put on your lights and I'll know. [Music] [Music] [Music] Down. [Music] Hey. Hey. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey hey hey. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Hey. Hey. Hey. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Beauty. [Music] Yeah. You need [Music] something. [Music] [Music] [Music] Heat. Heat. N. [Music] Number [Music] n. [Music] Fire. Number one. [Music] everybody. Let me tell you. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] My understanding what's before us today is we have read the hearing officer's conclusion of law and conclusion of facts and we've read the petitioner's objections to the finding of facts and exceptions of re of the recommended order. Um council Mr. Mr. Shelby >> if you're finished Mr. Mr. Chairman Wind. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yes. Remember, you remember that rule about interrupting me? >> I certainly do. >> Um, >> just a reminder before you get into a discussion or council determination. Um, again, the criteria from the code is city council may only open the meeting for oral argument if the city council finds that the hearing officer did not address a matter introduced into the record or the recommended order contains an ambiguity. And again, if you allow oral argument, you may limit the oral argument only to those matters for which you opened it. Let me also read ultimately what the criteria is for final order because I think it's also relevant in your case. I'm going to read excerpts of uh the section under final order and m Miss um Pettism did reference this in her presentation to council as to the background. City Council may not reject or modify any findings of fact reached by the hearing officer. If city council determines that a finding of fact is not based upon competent substantial evidence contained in the record or that a finding of fact does not comply with the essential requirements of law, meaning was the proper law applied correctly. Then city council may in that case remand the matter back to the hearing officer but only if it determines that additional factf finding is required. If city council rejects or modifies a conclusion of law, then your task, I'm paraphrasing here, your task then is to must state, again reading with particularity in the final order its reasons and must make a finding that your substitution of a conclusion of law is as or more reasonable than that which was rejected or modified. Uh and so that would being the case and the context upon which you make your decision, I now turn it back to you, Mr. Chairman. >> Yeah. B um based on what uh city and council attorneys have stated in our role here, it seems as though the threshold is quite high as far as reviewing this this case and the statements. Did anybody in their review of the documents find that the hearing officer is that what is his title as hearing officer? >> Could you ask that question again? So, did anybody uh I was just verifying that it was hearing officer was his title. >> Hearing officer, I always signed this. I'll use that. Did anybody here uh when they're reading petition, reading through the documents, did anybody find that the hearing officer um state uh statements of facts and statements of conclusions of law um were flawed? or did anybody find in the ex that the exceptions filed by the petitioner were valid to justify opening this case with oral arguments? >> Councilman Carlson. >> Yeah, there's there's no detail on any documentation or discussion about the the change of the zoning. um when the new when the new zoning uh 1984 when the new code went through they were under R4 which included both uses and then we don't know what happened why they weren't grandfathered in or or whether they requested to to um maintain or if they if they requested a different one but somehow they were changed to this other zoning cluster. I think you'd go back to the finding of fact and look at what the hearing officer found based on the testimony that was provided about the either use or not not continuous continuous use of that property. >> Well, he's he's talk as I read it, he's talking about the um his interpretation of how they were using it, but it doesn't address the issue of of whether they requested to be grandfathered in the existing use in 1984. >> That that information is not in the record. So >> yeah. >> So that would I'm just you asked if there's anything that would cause us to open it that would that would maybe be a reason to open it. >> I don't think that in my opinion I don't believe that would reach that threshold but um >> so you're thank you Shelby city city council attorney. So, you're saying that there is a something that you might see as a relevant fact that you do not see in the order that you think might be um uh relevant to a decision. I the the R4 designation included both uses and the new uh designation did not. And so u in 1984 it's silent as to whether they um they they tried to to change the uh to to be grandfathered into the old zoning at that time. Um it only talks about the Novo hearing in 2024. >> So yes, I'm sorry. I think I think in number if you go back and look at number seven on the um hearing officers finding effect um so seven and then continuing above with the current code beyond that continue what the current code allows I think that kind of addresses your concern >> it just as I as I >> I'm not trying to argue the point I'm just brought this up because you asked but it doesn't give any details about >> about whether they whether they asked to be grandfathered in and were denied or what happened at that point. It just it merely states that it changed. >> I'm hearing what you're saying, but I don't I don't necessarily know if that's relevant to the >> Well, the thing is well, if I can, I just want to say that council may only open public discussion upon a request for oral argument filed or by a party by a party or upon its own motion. So if if if you think this if there's something if it's either an ambiguity or something that's missing from uh uh fact that you may need ascertained in order to make a decision and I'm not taking position one way or the other then if you want if you think that merits oral argument then a motion would be in order otherwise not. >> It also can I make one other point? >> Yes sir. It also um shows clearly what by the way I for disclosure I've been to this place not in a few years but I've been there several times but it it it um it it says clearly what the primary use was but it it doesn't have a a site plan or a map or photos to show whether part of it has been used as an office. It merely says that the primary use was dance. >> I think I think that's the problem. I think that's that's that's the crux of the >> well actually council um that and you may not have recognized it or or or may overlooked it but that has been available in a cella if council needs the opportunity to review documents that you think you don't have well that's another issue we can address but um if you feel that that could be addressed in oral argument and answering your question you can do that I will remind you that even after oral argument and of course there are exceptions They will be addressed if you grant that right for oral argument by the petitioner's attorney and of course the city will have the opportunity to address that and perhaps rebut that. But even after all that finding council ultimately please remember that you cannot modify any findings of fact and you have to remand that if that's the case for additional factf finding and if it's an issue of if it's an issue of law then your task is to make a finding that a substitution of a conclusion of law is more is as or more reasonable than that which was rejected and that you would have to do if you were to do anything other than affirm this order um in order to bring back an order that actually reflects what council's decision is. So even after you open oral argument, you still have that duty and that burden that the um city code gives you. But if but if it's a question, council, the only thing I can advise you is um >> if you feel it warrants a motion and a second and a vote, it will determine whether you have oral argument or not. or if there's no desire for a motion or if there's no second then the matter is is moot. >> We don't need we don't we don't have to have a motion on this. >> Well, my recommendation my recommendation would be for the purpose of the record then you make the determination that you will make a decision without >> uphold the decision of the hearing >> or or and as part of the motion you know uh um reject the need uh for oral argument if that's council's pleasure. >> Okay. Council, who wants to speak? Counciloman, >> I mean, if if you think that you just want to go ahead and make a motion to open for oral argument if if that's what you want to. >> The other thing is we is is we could remand it back and ask these questions, right? or ask them to clarify >> with regard to fact with regard to the fact as to you will have to probably do it with articulate the specific question that you've been working to formulate with regard to the um uh previous code uh and and it it's a question it's a question of use my recommend my well I can't well I could I I would recommend that ultimately whatever you decide to do if it's remanded it has to be done with particularity. That's the word. >> So be because I mean it says here that they literally came to find a formal decision to seek the determination regarding the non-conforming use of office for the site. So what that tells me is that they didn't have one. So to me that is a finding of fact that if they didn't already have that grandfather. If they had gone for the grandfather, they would not have no need to go to request a formal decision. >> That's how I read it. >> Just to re bring us back into focus what our our our stated task here was to one accept accept what the hearing officer has had found in fact in law and to focus on the exceptions that had the petitioner provided to to that. And so we we so th those facts those facts are there and the use the usage the usage of the building was established by the hearing officer. Um >> you just have to compare the exceptions. So if your if your concern falls within the parameter of an exception then I think it's worthy of being heard. If it doesn't it's it does not. Is that correct? >> I would phrase it this way. If you feel that the hearing officer did not include something that you think is necessary as a finding of fact, you could have that's a basis for opening it up for oral argument and give the the the parties the opportunity to address specifically and you can limit that. Again, no additional new evidence can be taken, >> right? It has to be based on evidence that is in the record and either side if they go beyond that scope can object to what is going to be uh sworn testimony because they can give you sworn testimony as to that which is already in the record and was presented to the uh hearing officer during and in advance of the hearing and subsequent to that when he prepared this order. >> I I entertain a motion to deny oral arguments. Let's see if that float goes. >> I'll make that motion. >> I I'll second it. >> Okay. We have a motion from Council Manalo, a second from Councilwoman Herk to deny or oral arguments. Roll call, please. >> Vieira, >> yes. >> Carlson, >> yes. >> Miranda, >> yes. >> Manako, >> yes. >> Her? >> Yes. >> And Clinton? >> Yes. >> Motion carried unanimously. >> Thank you. >> And do we need another motion or are we done? >> No, we have >> we have to There's a question here of of a decision. Okay. >> Now, now it's decision time. >> Now it's Yes. Now, now you have to based on on the information that you have provided >> to you and based on the record and the recommended order. >> So, can we get a motion to affirm the the the decision of the hearing officer? >> Well, I mean, we still could deny it. I mean there's there's like so so but you're asking for one to affirm it >> um based on the law and the review and and what is in these documents. I um I uh recommend that the petition for a review be denied and that the zone the decision of the zoning administrator >> be affirmed. >> I'll second that. So it's to accept the recommended order to motion from counciloman her. We have a motion from councilwoman her. A second from counciloman Escal. Roll call, please. >> Carlson. >> No. Miranda, >> yes. >> Menusco, >> yes. >> Herac, >> yes. >> Vieira, >> yes. >> And Clint Dennon, >> yes. >> Motion carried with Carlson voting no. >> Now, council, if I can, I believe we may need to follow this up. What is um the process for the final order? Is that um what is the process from this point on or is it is it something that will be handled from this point on? >> So um Kamaria Pettismakle from the legal department if city and I'm just reading again from the code 27-61 if city council directs staff to prep prepare a revised order the revised order shall be transmitted to the parties and non-party participants. So um there hasn't been a change unless city council is directing. >> So no further action is required by city council after this point. >> No. So and the applicant as the final order is rendered by city council shall be deemed final and may be appealed to a court of competent jurisdiction. The matter set forth by applicable law. >> For the record, my name is Jane Graham. I represent the petitioners. I object. This is this on the grounds of due process and um I I don't need to go into more detail. We believe that there wasn't adequate notice for you given in the agenda. We timely filed this. It was not in your agenda materials. You were forced to read it right now um in a very kind of quick way. This is a detailed issue that needs time to really digest. Um and so on those grounds alone, we do object. And thank you very much. >> Your objections noted. Thank you. Okay. We have a motion to close. >> Move to close. We have a motion to close council mano. Second council Miranda. All those in favor say I. I. Oppose. The eyes have it. Thank you. That concludes our business. New business. >> Council Carlson. >> Um >> I don't agree with the city. Sorry. Um the uh the the expressway authority has asked us to um put uh their CEO Greg Slater on the agenda for a 15 minutes. So, I'd like to make a motion to request the Tampa Hillsboro Expressway Authority President and CEO Greg Slater to give a 15minute 10-minute let's say 10-minute presentation um on the South Selman capacity project on the December 18th council regular meeting under ceremony activities and presentations. >> We have a motion from Councilman Maskc Carlson, a second for Councilman Maskco. All those in favor say I. I oppose. The eyes have it. There you go. >> 18. 18. >> It's a Christmas It's a Christmas present. >> Christmas. >> Is that it? >> Councilman Ver. >> Yes, sir. I have a couple quick motions if I may. I motion for mobility to report back on staff improvements at Commerce Park Commerce Park Boulevard around Liberty Middle School in the rec New Tampa recreation center and to report back the November 6th um regular session with a written report. Long story short, there was an incident with a student who was hit um over at Liberty Middle School. I visited working with um Jessica Vaughn and others on this. So just to get a written report if I may. >> We have a motion from Councilman Vera, second for council man. All those in favor say I. >> I oppose. Eyes have it. >> Um I also motion for an annual update on the disability internship program to take place in the first regular session in April which is world autism awareness month because again I will not be here and I want to make sure this thing goes on forever. So so it would be obviously April of next year. >> We have a motion from Councilman Bureau, second from Council Mano. >> Yes ma'am. >> All those in favor say I. I oppose. Eyes have unanimously. >> I motion for parks and recreation to report on a rollout plan for inclusive playground playground equipment parks outside of the CRA that would include South Tampa as well as the North Tampa area. I understand we're limited on funds outside of the CRA. So, I intend to make the same motion at CRA. Uh further staff to clarify if it is now standard practice to include inclusive playground equipment as part of major parks improvements and new parks. Um, I would like this to be an in-person report on November 20th. >> Second. >> We have a motion from Councilman Vieira, second from Councilman Masko. I'd just like to say I really applaud your efforts on this. I think every child that shows up at a playground should be able to be uh be included and be able to participate. >> Yes, sir. Thank you. >> All those in favor say I. I oppose. Eyes have it. >> And then lastly, this is a long time coming. This goes back all the way to Joe Katano. Y'all remember Joe Katano? I know. >> Joe Black died here. >> Yep. You have Joe and he's Yeah, he's he's a funny guy. So, um, I motion for Tampa Police Department is appropriate to report on the possibility of establishing a new Tampa substation in existing strip mall or building where there may be current availability and this be an inerson report on November 6th. So, long long story short, you know, we in New Tampa, our nearest substation is in District 2, which is over off Annie Street next to station 13. and um you know getting I I was talking to Chief Burkhaw and I just brought it up and and he appeared to be receptive. Let let's see where they stand but is maybe not a full substation but we see a lot of times that there are these strip malls where you you rent something sometimes the owners give it to you um and so that there can be a police a formal substationesque presence um in New Tampa. So that would be my motion. We have a motion from Councilman Vier, second from Councilman Masko. Where did you suggest the location? >> New Tampa. >> Anywhere. New Tampa. >> Anywhere in New Tampa. >> Anywhere in the Alaska of Tampa. >> Yeah. Wow. >> Okay. That's quite broad. I know. >> Well, not really because there's not a lot of commercial space there. He's talking about commercial. There's there's only one or two corridors for commercial space in >> But it's long. >> Yes. But >> we're not talking about the whole >> Yeah. I I I know there's there's you know that what is it? Hunter's Green is a is a hot bed of activity. >> Oh, there you go. Right. I know. >> Okay. We have a motion and a second. All those in favor say I. I. Oppose. Eyes have. >> Thank you. And then I I did want to comment. Obviously, we saw the report on the racial reconciliation committee and what's happened there. Um I I I am in talks with the committee members. Uh I called a few um yesterday when I was uh briefed on it uh this morning as well, and I've been in contact with them. and I'm setting time aside tomorrow 9:00 am and I think at 1 pm because obviously I can't meet with them collectively because of sunshine issues to speak with everybody individually. Um I I do think it's proper to make a motion later on for um commendations. Um and and we'll discuss it further. I I I I think it's terrible what's happened. Obviously it's very important to note that this is something that's outside of our control. It's it's outside of city staff's control. And I think that anybody that says that the city legal department, we can ask Mr. Shelby for his opinion on it as well. Um there there's there's nothing. It's all from the federal government. And so I I think it's terrible. I mean, I I've never seen such blatant appeals to uh racial grievance and division coming from the federal government through things like this. And it and it and it breaks my heart. and and it breaks my heart for the committee members who deserve better and for Tampa that deserve better and Florida and the United States of America deserves better than this. But yeah, just my thoughts. Thank you. >> Thank I think you've get a unanimous consent on that. That's it. >> Yes, sir. Thank you, >> Councilwoman Herk. >> Um yes, I uh y'all um earlier we talked about um storm water money um and for parades. So what I think I will simply do is just ask the administration um to come to us on November 6th with their plan for barricad barricades and parades so that we will be able to find out whether or not they plan to use stormwater employees. So my my motion is to have uh the administration come on November 6th and actually a written report is probably fine. So if that's the case actually then I want to do that on November 23rd. A written staff report on how the administration plans to uh provide barricades for parades and if storm water staff will be used for such. >> Mr. Shelby, how far away is that? How many weeks is that? That's two months. >> No, it's a month. It's a full month. >> It's a full month. >> Yeah. >> Oh, okay. >> Said the 23rd. >> Yeah, the 23rd of October >> of October. You said, you know, you said >> November. >> Yeah, I said November and then I went back and I was like, >> if it's a written report written report for October 23rd, um my only my only wanting to get it done earlier is because the the season really starts in November. So, >> um if if staff needs uh more time to November 6th, I'm I'm open to that. But again, it's a written report, not a oral one. So >> October 23rd then >> 23rd. We have room because it's written. >> Thank you. >> Second that. >> Can I I mean I I I get your point, but is that where we're kind of like dabbling where we're not supposed to be dabbling? >> All I said was just to ask because this is these are the questions that we're getting from it's just report questioning whether >> not a question just a report of fact because you're right. We can't but but people are going to ask. So I just want the information so that we can accurately provide the information. >> Okay, sounds fine. Now >> yeah, we can we can and we have in the past asked it doesn't we can't order the administration to do something, but we can ask. I think this is a good first step. Let's see what they come back with first. >> Very good. Oh, big yawn. We have a motion from Councilwoman Herk, a second from Councilwoman Mana. All those in favor say I. I oppose. I have it unanimously. >> And one point of privilege. Uh yesterday was my husband's birthday. I just want to wish >> Happy birthday Tim. Happy birthday to you. >> Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. He'll love you for that. >> So, you married a much younger man. That's what I was saying. >> Yes. Much you >> Councilman Masko, >> I have nothing. >> Well, you're you're my favorite councilman today. Remember that song? I have nothing. >> I have nothing. >> Anyway, >> Councilman Miranda, >> thank you. A sad thing uh one of our leaders in the homeowners association movement ever since I can remember was Margaret Vizy and she passed away Wednesday September the 10th. There is a visitation hour Monday uh the 22nd of this month at 9:00 am at Christ the King Church in a meeting founded by a mass attend. She was a wonderful woman. She had a a very low key but when she looked at you those eyes were telling me you know what I want and she she was very good at doing what she did and I want to honor her and she was a very fine fine person and had a great organization started through that organization many were South Tampa people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When I got involved with Dan it was Margaret D. She was the one, >> the powerhouse. >> Her, Jerry Frankhauser, Steve Labour, >> um, so many people have died, you know, from the original fan group, but now we have a new generation that's taken it on. But yeah, Mrs. Vzy, >> Marty will tell you, I mean, >> yeah, she was >> she's a big deal. >> She was probably the most powerful neighborhood leader that I've seen in my in my >> And she did it with a kindness that you when when you left, she knew what she wanted with our hotel. Every every >> So that was the difference between Stephanie Pointer and >> No, I didn't say that. >> Did you hear that? Stephanie wasn't me. I didn't say that. >> No, >> I didn't say that at all. >> Every every developer >> the same way she was. >> Every developer, even if it wasn't in her neighborhood, they still would call her to talk to her to make sure that that she was on their side. >> Yeah. >> In fact, things were different. There was no no internet ready to speak up, no nothing. And they still made the effort to to do what they had to do. Secondly, I'd like to make a motion for Chuck Garden, the Tampa Bay Waterhead of Tampa Bay Water to make a presentation before council if possible December the 18th. Provide an overview of major initiatives that they're working on. >> Second, >> you sorry before you vote, can you limit it to 10 minutes, please? >> Pardon me. >> Can you limit it to 10 minutes, please? >> Yeah, we can do it to 10 minutes. >> Second. >> Yeah, because now we have three >> first speaker. Okay, so we have a motion from Councilman Miranda, second from Councilman Scott. All those in favor say I. I oppose. Eyes have unanimously. And the secondly, I like to have a a somebody from the parks department come up. We've had a change in the leadership there and I have made arrangements with between individuals of the park that I visited and the previous administrator of park and recreation if they can come up sometime. Give me a date uh to talk about Henry and all of the update and changes that would need to be made there at the park. >> Okay. So, I don't have a date. >> To be determined date >> to just to be determined. >> Yeah, to be determined. Give me any date you want. >> We have a motion. Would you want to pick a date? Yeah, >> let's pick it up if we can. >> We have our date specialist, our chair prom keeper of the dates >> and enough time for notice to them. >> Yes. >> November 6. >> November 6th is fine. >> I'll second that. >> Okay. So, parks November 6. We have a motion for council Miranda, second council of Scott. All those in favor say I. Oppos? Eyes. Happy to answer. >> Mr. here. Real quick, I wanted to offer my condolences to Martha Vila because her sister Emily Perez passed away yesterday at 88. And we know how Martha loves city council and all she does, especially with the VA brothers park, but I want to offer my condolences to Martha, if you're listening, we're thinking about you. >> Move to receive >> Mr. >> Excuse me. Do you have anything, Mr. Chairman? >> I do not. >> Okay. Thank you. I just want to direct your attention to the um the ordinance that has been passed on second reading regarding the charter review. Um it turns out that on October the 8th, what is coming to council is only a written staff report and it reads as follows. Um administration to submit their list of recommended changes of the charter and I would perhaps suggest that we could add another written staff report. uh uh perhaps by me to talk about next steps with regard to what kind of steps council will need to take to get this up and running through a resolution. >> Okay. Councilwoman Her. >> Well, on October 23rd, we have a scheduled discussion regarding the goals and objectives and scope for the charter review commission to consider, including information provided by legal department and the administration. >> That's it then. So, we did set up the written report. Brilliant. >> On on the 9th so that we could talk about it on the 23rd and I think that would be the perfect place for next steps. >> That's wonderful. >> Well, there you go. You're awesome. >> So, that that business was already done. We anticipated this and fixed it. I had it before you bought. >> Well, as long as >> we just didn't remember, >> but and thank you for putting me on the same page as city council. Thank you. >> Yeah. If we if we didn't have our calendar keeper, where would we be? >> Keeper of the dates. Keeper of the calendar. You have royal titles. >> Move to receive and file. >> We have a motion to receive and file for Councilman Escalico. A second from >> Councilman Carlson. All those in favor say I. I. Opposed. We are. There's >> still sunlight. >> We are ajourned. [Music]