can we just briefly talk about this as a wetland because i keep laughing when i look at i mean this is for years and years and years it it's used as an agricultural field and to call it a wetland and think of putting up signs is i i can't wrap my head around why this is a wetland and and why we're going to put this kind of restriction on something that just doesn't seem logical in my in my viewpoint where does this definition of wetland come from is this disease and the wetland conservation act the city of corcoran is the lgu for enforcing the wetland conservation act and the elm creek watershed rules and so there was a tech panel that reviewed these wetlands and they determined that they are wetlands and i certainly don't mean i'd love to have lunch with them some days just to understand sincerely disagree well the thing is i suppose greg if they if they fill it in then they have to they have to provide for wetlands at what two times the area yeah varies but they do have to mitigate for the wetland if it's over the de minimis amount there's a minimum amount you can fill without having to to replace it i don't recall if this is within the minimus or not i don't know if you guys remember but so it's been through the tap panel at the wetland conservation act folks and it is what it is yeah i hear you all right so what you're saying then is that they would not be held to having planting [Music] you know all these trees and brushes in this little skinny linear five foot area yeah it's a little more than five feet there's there's 50 feet between the west property line and the fence and within that swale on the west property line and and within the east property line it's 30 feet so it's a little bigger than it looks um and i think there is room to to do a staggered row of trees [Music] okay it's tight but i think it's doable okay i you know i had some other things written down i i don't know that they're uh that they're necessarily relevant uh anymore so well may i ask a question um my question is just related to um so the feeling that things are in a pinch because the development is happening so fast and i feel like um i want to ask about some of that long-range planning that you were talking about so it looks like based on this location it serves kind of the coming or encroaching development really well but what about the future can you speak to that at all i mean it seems like it's it's positioned on the very most easterly side of corcoran and so uh i mean i hope not but at some point in time if if development continues to march is a site like this going to be able to provide service or are we looking at a short-term solution and then needing to provide additional substations in the future um i know if you look at our you guys are aware of the development up on state road up by pheasant acres that particular area is fed off of what we call our trailhaven substation which is located up in rogers but not far away so we're getting support from that direction and we're also getting support from our it'd be our rockford station to the to the west i i mean we may be talking about something in the future but we also got to remember excel energy comes in here on our western in the cochrane 2 and that's where we're we're mixed in there where how this develops in the future with the egg delineation it if it stays as it is i don't suspect any concerns but if once the east develops and you want to go to the next stage up i think we're going to be talking again about something in the west i i can't speak for that but i right now based on what we're seeing on the you know future plots as far as how the it's city supposed to lay out by their comprehensive plan that i think we're well covered in the future with what wh is proposing here um it's a good point right so that's why we brought up very very beginning was your comprehensive plan that's what we're using as our roadmap unless that changes and as kurt was saying is when we think of our substations and it's kind of overlap right it's a mesh system it's not a radius around it so um you try to build off of that and make sure you don't have weak spots in there but to your point yes we look at the long term and look at your your comprehensive plan and you know try to accommodate that okay so arguably the next you know that comprehensive plan goes through 2040 so you're saying at least 20 40 this is going to serve the area and the growth that comes yes i'm not trying to put wires in places that you know are very you know to try to keep up with it uh we have a substation also i failed to mention down by uh 55 off of little drive it's called our rule sub that also feeds up into the south south part of the southeast part of this too so it's so we're we are prepared for growth it's just right in this area we are stretched and that's what we're dealing with right now okay and then this might seem like a bizarre question but i feel like if i don't ask it i mean it might anyway are you do you generate any like is there any benefit if residents say in areas where there was land or rural space if they started doing solar does that help you alleviate you or there's still a need regardless so a good way to address that is on-site solar helps some of the time but it's intermittent right it's renewable it's intermediate the sun's not always shining the wind's not always blowing so you still need the same capability in your distribution grid to handle the worst case scenario your peak glows because that peak can handle it could happen on a cloudy winter day when it's 30 below the sun's not producing any solar you know you're not getting anything from your wind so that's a common question but it doesn't really address the concerns and the peak loads that we're seeing that we have to meet from a distribution side and then i also had questions about what would happen to the existing substation so i think those were all addressed previously it's not that there would be two kind of facing each other in the long term that's not the whole and then one last question sorry if there had not been a need for the variance request regarding the acreage when you came a year ago would it have come before council still or would it have just been administratively approved you you had mentioned earlier kendra that like the reason this is coming is because of the planning and then i was just wondering a year ago when it was in the other area and it came before um council it would something like this does that come before council regardless of whether or would that have been administratively approved had it been put in the previous location that shamrock if they had purchased the entire 40 acres and didn't need a subdivision the administrative permit would have been administratively approved okay thank you i think he's raising his hands oh i'm sorry receiver yes i have a question for janie to the balance of this triangular piece of property when the developers the dangerous thompson from her neighbor decided to develop the rest of this land it's right right at the bigger participate in the right and left turn lanes like every other development path even though it's premature we don't need them today or are they going to be exact because they're the first ones [Music] yeah i mean i don't think 60 acres can handle three in an office well i wish i could directly answer that question i i don't know either but i mean i i think that question was raised didn't somebody raise that earlier or was there was there any requirement i know that you said that they had to improve the road if if they wanted access to it over a certain given time period up to the driveway which may or may not then include turn lanes but is it envisioned then that this lane would be widened for the future use or future development mr chair as with all projects the city engineering team did a feasibility study and evaluated traffic there is not enough traffic generated here to trigger a turn lane we do not under the current regulations have the power to assess properties that are not part of a project unless we did a 429 project which the city of corcoran has not done so what happens like with the previous subdivisions that have come in when those subdivisions come in we'll do another feasibility study and see if that triggers improvements on county roads this project alone did not trigger improvements on a county vote people cannot be part of that unless the rules change or the city does a 429 but but would that be something i think mr ebert's suggesting then that when it's developed all those costs would fall on the current developers it wouldn't be a special assessment then that would apply to everybody who had a benefit correct just like ravinia ravinia paid for all of the road improvements uh related to that they turned lanes on 116 they gave us money for improvements onto 101 as well they gave us money for hackmore improvements they built the paid money for the connection from their project to 116 along 66 because they triggered that the traffic the feasibility study figured they found that they triggered that just like tavera the traffic that he found they were triggering and they're responsible for forget the dollar amount significant amount of money for hackamore okay so but then none of the existing uh adjacent property owners will receive it for free they wouldn't receive a special assessment for it does that answer oh it's just yeah it just seems they're coming premature and anyone else would have to do some road infrastructure off-site that's just remember where grown nurses went in they went in as an agricultural business and we made them tower all the way down to the end of our property 20 years ago yep yeah so what would trigger them having to uh improve the road to their driveway trips trips more than four times trips a month or whatever it is that they generate traffic yeah traffic generation is what triggers the road improvements so how who's going to monitor that we i mean the engineers are smart folks and we have a ite manual that says how many trips come from a single family home versus an apartment versus a town home versus a gas well i'm talking about as it relates to wright hennepin and we have data that says a substation has and i i forget what the feasibility is but it's single-digit trips uh per day i mean it's it's nominal it's okay i think the point i'm trying to make is we're allowing a business to run on a four-time road and everyone in this room knows the trucks are more than 400 if i drive a dump truck on that road i guarantee i'll give this one they'll drive their trucks every day and you'll permit it no one will pay for it except the guys that develop the rest of the wire well again to clarify they cannot drive on this road and violate the four ton they will have to improve up to their driveway but they do not have to make turn lane improvement okay so they will have to improve the road to their drive right yes okay i was under the impression that that wasn't a requirement unless there was another condition that that happened so i think pardon i think the other thing that had been mentioned was if they requested access from 116 from the county that was why you thought perhaps there was an alternative that they didn't have to improve larkin because there's that as an option is that correct right it could only be temporary because it should park land so it'd be during construction if they did that but ultimately they're going to have to improve that section of that road but it's not a full urban section it's just improving it so it's not a four ton design okay okay i just have a couple a couple questions just more of a concern in general i know we can't say so much about the site because it is just for me to say it it seems really unfortunate that we're putting a substation what is essentially our downtown our new downtown area that that's what we have as sort of a hub of a downtown so i just want to say that because that's unfortunate um i was curious what uh what so we're talking about two 60-foot towers is or something like that is that what they were yeah on uh we would have a spanning there'd probably be ultimately between the current structures there to the substation you'll end up seeing six structures if you go from an aerial view um you just had it all right okay you can kind of see the last one yeah there we go you can kind of see where the wires come in from the west they they hit and they tap and come into a double structure and those what those two wires that go back to a single point that's a lightning mass so that's higher up in the air so that's what you would see on the north side of the property okay so you're staring at there's three six eight maybe ten total structures that are taller than yeah i was just curious is there options for it to not be so high you know what i mean or to spread it out a bit and and have it less what the the visible of the the lightning mass is is to support you know we don't want lightning coming in ourselves right common sense but the larger transmission towers are that tall due to the clearances needed to keep the 69 000 line align voltages apart from each other so the towers are relatively set on the size that they they have to be i mean we if we reduce them now and if there would ever be an improvement to 115 000 volts on that transmission line we'd be back but these are all being designed for the future for the future okay and then i know we had mentioned that that maybe the building again i don't most of that will probably be shielded by the trees at this point so maybe that's less of a factor you know the block but you know that was one thing we haven't really talked about the a concrete block structure for something that's essentially in our downtown if we can make that with these giant towers i don't know but you know that could be a little bit more in line with some of our designs you know that we have for our southeast um uh you know area here so i don't know i don't know if there's some options if we wanted to chat about that i mean you would mention maybe your lap signing or something instead of just great concrete block but it seems like maybe there's an opportunity if they're especially fine up with a park around it or other residential homes you know and a walking path and something visually a little nicer when we're trying to we have standards all the rest of the downtown area town center thoughts well i i think we should wait until we close the applicant's uh powerpoint and discuss that among ourselves and i i'd like to make that motion okay any other further questions comments to our applicant all right well thank you very much we appreciate that um right um [Music] we uh we did close the publication yes all right so commission discussion recommendations any any others may i thank you on its merits there is ample support in the record and i think that anyone can see that an electrical substation has to happen at some point it just does i do not dispute that and the need for it is precipitated by the unfettered development that is going on here in corcoran to be clear i i just don't buy the whole you know i just don't buy into the whole gateway to quark and argument you know it's not the prettiest structure but there is already one across the street that said there is merit to the argument that this kind of structure should not be built in a residential zone i understand that the applicant has said it has looked high and low for such an alternative but i am not convinced that has occurred because apparently this is just a veiled eminent domain taking of land if right hennepin is going to simply seize an owner's land by eminent domain why take land in a residential zone right hadn't been said tonight that it is giving value to the city by donating about two acres of park back to the city i'd like to remind right hennepin that it's not your land to give away but what i am most concerned about with this application is the fact that the staff report does not make one single mention of eminent domain or the fifth amendment the only mention i see of eminent domain is an email that this commission received from a couple of residents including ms sweene thank you for being here who i understand is the trustee of the trust that holds the property according to my research and review of hennepin county property tax records the procedural problem that i see with all of this is that a private company that provides a public utility is asking for permission to change a plat of land that it does not own or hold any interest to as far as i am aware i understand that state statute may provide that a public utility has the authority to initiate an action for eminent domain the same as the government for anyone curious those statutes are minnesota statute section 117 and 216 e on my reading of those right hennepin would first have to initiate a proceeding to seize the property it seems to me that and maybe i'm just being too logical but it seems like that should occur before an application to subdivide and develop it is heard we have an application before us from an entity that has no ownership or interest entitled to the land in question think about it i cannot file an application to subdivide my neighbor's land where is the authority to submit to just submit or approve this application when the applicant does not hold title to the land and from what i understand has not even initiated the eminent domain procedure it seems like a divide and conquer mission to me basically right hennepin wants to subdivide and only then initiate eminent domain proceedings this is backwards in my view is that our code prevents us from approving this application on those grounds hennepin's application is asking for two things a preliminary plat and an administrative approval both require an application from the land owner first as a threshold issue for the standard of this commission's review our city code says that quote the planning commission shall recommend approval of the preliminary plat if it in always conforms to the city's comprehensive plan zoning ordinance this chapter and all chapters of the city code i'm reading 930.010 sub 4d the preliminary plot procedure makes several references to the subdivider including quote the application shall be considered as being officially submitted i didn't talk over you the application shall be considered as being officially submitted and complete when the subdivider has complied with all of the specified submittal requirements as described in this section i'm reading 930.010 sub 1. so it can only the application can only be submitted by the subdivider so let's look up the term subdivider the subdivider the term subdivider is defined in our city code at 915.020 as quote any person commencing an application proceeding under this chapter to affect a division consolidation rearrangement subdivision or resubdivision of land a subdivider is the owner of the land or an individual or an individual representing the landowner who has expressed written authority to act on the on behalf of the landowner now it's the same story for the administrative permit process application for an administrative permit shall be filed by the property owner or designated agent with the zoning administrator on an official application form 1070.060 subdivision 281 this seems unfair to the landowner we have an application affecting a personal uh a parcel of land that the applicant holds no ownership interest in we have protests from a representative of the landowner ms sweene who spoke tonight as we are being asked to subdivide a lot where our code is crystal clear that an applicant has to have an ownership interest in the land this is a jurisdictional problem that i think has not been addressed in the packet or by staff or by wright hennepin ms swing may i ask you a question has wright hennepin received your permission representing the landowner to file this application thank you now there may be additional facts to all of this but if there are they should have been in the staffs report if the answers to these questions are no or to that question is no then i vote no and i vote no recognizing that the city will need an electrical substation i just think that the manner in which this is being done fails for want of procedural considerations if that if these procedural considerations were not in play i think right hennepin has the better argument on the merits of for this location one more housekeeping note i think it would be helpful to the commissioners the city council and the public if there is more express citation to the city code in other words where we have a staff report i want to know where the authority for an application comes from exactly so that i and anyone else can go find it i don't think i'm asking for too much thank you thank you commissioner lantern staff have a yes absolutely okay um we have vetted this application in detail with the city attorney we were intentional because the eminent domain discussion is not the planning commission's purview that's why we are silent on that issue there is no discussion of that intentionally after discussion with the city attorney the city attorney and the applicant's attorney have worked uh diligently on this application and we have an affidavit from the applicant's attorney regarding the eminent domain case that our attorney believes given the filing of that eminent domain case that wright hennepin does have the right to submit this application for this property and i am not an attorney but i do defer to our city attorney's advice and that is why we are proceeding and believe we have the right the obligation to process this application is is our city attorneys advice to ignore our city code our city attorney believes that what we have complies with our city that was just a yes or no is our city attorney telling us to ignore our city code i haven't asked him that direct question okay please do i would like to know well it seems we have a an issue um well the issue is you don't take someone's property no the issue is you follow code okay and and commissioner lantern you you you are are very well adapted at bringing this out as we've seen and i and i thank you for that so um i i'm just trying to think here how we well certainly i think we hire the city attorney to give us advice he will be at the council meeting uh but but the interim city administrator and i have both had multiple conversations with the city attorney and we believe that the planning commission does have the right to process this application and we'll make him aware of those questions so that he can answer them at the at the council meeting or in a memo in advance of that okay yes sir just want to let you guys know okay the commission will gladly hear any comments he has on the topic thank you commissioners i appreciate the opportunity to speak uh in regard to whether or not white hillary clinton has initiated a petition the answer to that question is yes and that was in consultation with the city attorney the petition was filed on january 12 of 2022 we have since had the initial hearing with the court uh the deja's attorney participated in that hearing and i feel it is worth noting to the commission that swing on behalf of the trust did not object to the proposed taking in fact there has been a proposed order that has been submitted a stipulated proposed order that has been submitted both by myself and the diesel trusts the attorney authorizing the proposed taking so once again the petition for condemnation has been filed and the trust has agreed to the proposed taking or more accurately they have not objected to the proposed taking so from a procedural perspective i see no issue nor does the city attorney well and and thank you mark i appreciate you calling it what it is a taking um when is it expected that this this process will conclude or is there no is there no estimated date is that a question for me yes sir i'm sorry uh that is a bit up in the air in all likelihood the change of possession will take place within 90 days or so uh there are other items that need to be addressed through the combination process but possession and all likelihood would [Music] change hands within 90 days or so okay has that order been filed yes okay i thought that that that you said that both sides have submitted [Music] draft orders uh for the court to sign a stipulated order that was agreed upon by both sides okay but if it's not signed yet it can't be filed so my question is has that been signed and has it been filed it has been filed with the court okay has the judge signed the order and filed the order we have not seen the judge sign order to date okay so can i is it true then i mean can i assume then that that's a no i would assume that as wright hennepin's attorney you would have seen that order it hasn't been signed yet but because it's stipulated it will be signed it's almost a guarantee almost a guarantee so would you agree with me then that because the order has not been signed nor has it been filed that this hearing tonight is premature i disagree okay thank you [Music] thank you okay well um [Music] would it make sense to what's our timing on this application process april 1st okay um is the review deadline i think is what you meant and that's when i would have to clear the city council right by when what was that so would it have made um mark and uh commissioner lantern in your opinion would it have made a difference about the legality of this process at this at this juncture given the ownership difference if ms sween had said that she did have a letter of authorization from or if right hennepin had a letter of authorization from the swing or the trust to act on on this application i don't want to say on their behalf but right in their own best interest assuming as we've heard now that there is an agreement in principle on on this acquisition i think that's a great question you know our code is clear i this application must be filed by the landowner or a representative of the landowner ms sweene is here tonight i heard her say that she doesn't want this miss sweeney do you want this to happen okay so it sounds to me like the landowner did not file this application nor did a representative of the landowner so therefore this application shouldn't even have gotten to us okay now if wright hennepin wants to wants to move forward i think they have to seize the property and then apply they have it backwards you can't ask for what they're asking for they can't ask for this until they have a claim on the land now for authorization for authorization which she just said she's not giving okay can you explain the agreement that your lawyer was speaking to about your acceptance of the acquisition i yes our lawyers have all that stuff i i'm sorry i can't answer to to the lawyers but i have no agreement with ray kaplan at all that was him talking for us so your lawyer is making all the decisions for you mr chair yes the attorney that was on the line was representing right-handed elections oh i'm sorry all right but but he had mentioned though that they have spoken with your attorneys and okay all right well it just seems premature because they're saying clearly they don't want this our code clearly says only the homeowner only the property owner can file this application and until wright hennepin takes their land rate hennepin has no claim on that land they can't they can't even this particular first isn't it it doesn't matter because it should have never been it should not have been here to begin with now if right hennepin came in here and said we seized their property we had we claimed it under eminent domain we control it we have an interest in it and we are coming tonight with this application to do this this dividing i think they would have a case i think right hennepin would have a case but as it is they have no claim to the land they have no standing to submit this application and you know don't tell me well it's pretty much a sure thing i mean cases go south all the time until that order is filed this is an this is an active discussion as far as i'm concerned between wright hennepin and the landowner it's premature and we never should have been uh uh uh put uh put in a position to even review this this application is not properly before us in my opinion what do i know okay um can i can i just ask a question mr chair related yes sir do we ever um do so we see preliminary plans sometimes when a developer and a landowner are working together the landowner still owns land you feel like that's a different scenario because you're getting the authorization correct so the key issue is the lack of authorization yeah well if you if you look at city code it says that an application to do this must be made by the land owner or a representative of the landowner i just saw it i wanted to clear it she is the trustee am i correct i mean i looked up the hennepin county property records and i pulled the the court file and it looks like to me like you're the trustee meaning you are the manager of the trust that owns that land so therefore if she came here tonight and said this is what i want to do this is my application we should approve that that's what she wants to do it's her property but wright hennepin wants us to do it and they don't own the land they have no claim to the land yeah so i think it's very mature sure the city have is the response from city that the city attorney gave you then yes okay so mr chair i think there's a couple of options tonight you certainly have the option uh to say uh you recommend denial because they don't have standing to apply or you could choose to discuss the application and weigh in on some of the design things but regardless you do need to move it forward to the council yep mr chair yes i'd like to make a motion to deny based on lack of standing okay um [Music] before we before we get a second and take a vote on that so we can still make recommendations to through the process to the city council even though that we're going to deny it well no you can't because you're denying it so you don't have a tool to do that you could certainly right all right i'm imagining it goes to the city council by then this is all it is filed potentially and they go well let's look at it now we didn't actually put any other input into it which would be a bummer well i mean personally at the way i saw it until the the issue was raised which i think is legitimate um i was going to recommend approval of it with the only change being i think we should require the applicant to put the slats in the in the fencing um but um i i think the uh the issue that you raise commissioner lantern makes sense to me this commission is not guided by direct legal representation as much as maybe say the city council is regarding um well you know it doesn't take a large lawyer to read our code code is pretty clear i i i agree with you um so um [Music] i guess until until the issue is squared away now the city council of course could take our recommendation and and just say we think they're standing and approve it anyway all right so um we have a motion to deny yes uh i think mark would like to address that because i think there's some misunderstandings in terms of just the agreement that was put in place and and what between the discussions between the city attorney and our attorney mr sandberg mr sandberg though i i i i have a motion i have a pending motion i have a pending motion is that the the trust you know if you're talking between your attorney and the city attorney and you have agreement what i'm what the part we're missing is agreement with the landowners themselves and that's all i'm just offering that up this okay sir are you are you back on the line i have a pending motion all right it's certainly up to the chair if you want to no i i look we have a motion we'll take a second we'll take a vote do i have a second i'll second that motion shulac okay all right all those in favor of recommending denial uh say aye aye aye aye opposed okay so until the issue of ownership gets resolved uh the recommendation is to deny the application thank you everybody thank you mr chair all right let us move forward um does anybody need a break okay uh why don't we break until uh um well ten two or five two oh i keep going ten two is good enter ten two oh by that clock or maybe five wait no by real quick are we stopping they're recording thank you [Music] recording stopped [Music] i wouldn't want anyone [Music] no [Music] wow when i saw this happening in such a different way i saw such a much different turnout here [Music] were you thinking it's gonna be more or less i thought it would pass i mean i had no reason to believe that it wasn't any i had i had a full page of things to battle the objections to it and that's why i said no one really raised him so i guess i don't really why bring him up i'll just waste airspace in time that left field legal i know but you know at least at face value it sounds logical to me i i did better we expected that and we've added it with our attorney so i'm disappointed that our attorney talking to jess and i us sharing that with you didn't carry as much weight as a commissioner is not our city it's right here there's probably well you know any other any other day i i would have i would have said you got them sitting right there saying we don't agree with this you know it makes it pretty hard to say that there's it's ugly yeah my sister hasn't i have to go that's domain over this water all right [Music] there you go [Music] [Music] him oh i almost wish he'd send me these before he yeah just to give me a heads up they couldn't they weren't they were i'm gonna tell them that too i'm gonna say you know if you've got this thing you know and you've thought this up send give me heads up on us i don't enjoy being blindsided by that kind of thing in the middle of a meeting yeah [Music] [Music] no no you know but yeah and they're like so we were they were about to talk and then it would have been like whatever i mean i knew ultimately and so no i don't know i mean there's a thing where let me ask you this when it says previously this has a date on is of 21. now i don't know is this what they're trying to do to want to get new orders yeah so that they can build the same thing 3400 yeah although they were asking them what were theirs yeah they asked for 40 right right we don't yeah [Music] and it was just super frustrating that it was oh and i felt like that was happening yeah we're on a we're on chain really oh yeah eventually ours is going to be a foreign all right commission we're ready to restart