please I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all thank thank you very much can we do a roll call please council member Cole here council member here council member Wong here council member nordby here mayor mongi here can I get a motion to adopt the agenda please so moved so moved council member swe second second council member Wong all those in favor say I I I all right we have some presentations tonight the first one is is a proclamation for making Paul Anderson day so Proclamation this Thursday December 21st as Paul Anderson day in the city of North St Paul whereas Paul Anderson was an esteemed resident of North St Paul for many years whereas Paul Anderson impacted countless numbers of Youth throughout his career in education spanning 35 years whereas Paul met his future wife lifeguarding at Silver Lake they were married in 1960 and raised their three sons Paul Anderson was a man of many talents and interests including singing in the Dale warland singers and traveling the globe with his family whereas Paul Anderson was civic-minded and shared his service with the people of North St Paul as a council member from 2006 to 2009 whereas Paul Anderson's service to the city of North St Paul included work with the Planning Commission North St Paul design and historical review commission and the Ramsey County League of local governments whereas Paul Anderson served as member and curator of the nor St Paul Historical Society since its Inception whereas Paul Anderson served as host of North St Paul notes Community cable television production where he interviewed many students and area leaders and volunteers whereas thanks to the efforts of the commitments of Paul Anderson the history of nor St Paul is preserved and chronicled for future generations to enjoy and learn from whereas Paul Anderson leaves behind a lasting Legacy of service to the city of North St Paul and the North St Paul Historical Society whereas the city of North St Paul will fly all city flags at half staff in honor of Paul Anderson on Thursday December 21st 2023 I John Mungi mayor of North St Paul Minnesota do hereby Proclaim Thursday December 21st as Paul Anderson day in the city of North St Paul and God bless him and he was a gift to our community and that's his actually his funeral that day so it's a good way to send them out so thank you everyone thank you next next presentation is the holiday lights award hey BR all right thank you um The Business Association uh probably four years ago we kind of came together and decided we were going to uh start a holiday lights contest to kind of get some of the residents in North St Paul to spruce up their houses a little bit and each year since we started doing this uh the contest has grown this year we had our largest number of entries ever including a lot of firsttime entries which was pretty pretty cool to see and this year the judging was tough because there was not really a a clear-cut winner so we had a lot of very good entries as well um however we did we were able to come up with some winners and first place uh two $200 prize from The Business Association Rachel Wells at 2529 15th Avenue nice and then uh first time ever we had a tie for second place like I said the entries were that good uh so Tai for second place was split between Janine balus at 2833 Lake Boulevard and Jeff and Peggy ardner at 2866 mcnight so uh again Business Association we want to thank everybody that participated in the uh lights contest and uh there's still some time to go out and drive past these winter houses and uh check them out excellent thank than for taking that thank you thank it was a lot of fun I drove around and was able to see him so thank you all right next up we got the consent agenda uh December 5th 2023 City Council Workshop Item B December 5th 2023 regular meeting minutes item C General claims of 1,577 25745 HRA claims of $1,612 3 Eda claims of $181 2016 approved Personnel policy update uh sick leave and earned sick and safe time resolution approving an amendment to the park rental policy item H 2023 annual review of attendance of boards and commission members item I appointments to the arts and culture commission item J appointment to the Planning Commission item K appointment to the park and wreck commission item L storm water maintenance agreement for the future Taco Bell site uh item M resolution to approve the Market Street Commons preliminary plat item n building permit report for November of 2023 item o resolution accepting donations for November of 2023 and item P the berwald property conveyance thank you very much anybody on the council like to pull any I'd like to pull item P please P okay thank you P will be moved down to City business action items any anybody else we good okay can I get a motion to ad adopt the consent agenda so moved so move council member Cole second second council member Norby all those in favor say I I I thank you very much David Mr Nelson three minutes if you can come up and state your name and address I'd appreciate it well the clock doesn't start till you hit the mic how was that I like to talk about snow uh blower safety I had a close friend when we moved here was plugged he tried to work it out with the uh a handle but there was a stick in there he reached in took his thumb and his finger right off and this is before I learned about WD40 but you want the fogging one the big blast the other one just shoots a stream out and it runs down you got more waste this it spreads it out go through the Chute and down below where it's rusted in that it will seal it so it doesn't ice up and clog on you it's the nicest stuff there is and I was mechanic uh for Chevrolet for 42 and 1/2 years and I run into this it's called mechanics in the bottle if you got a snowblower lawnmower boat motor snowmobile that's been sitting had some gas in there that is not running too well mix this in it and it will work uh compared to me that's the smallest mechanic you ever find but um no it it does work my cousin had a snowblower and she hasn't used it for 2 years I put that in with an hour and a half it was back running normal great and both these items are only sold at Home Depot I checked Menards I checked uh some of the hardware stores but they're the only ones that handle these two items so it's a cheap overhaul for your lawn mower your snow blower's been sitting but you use the gas that does not have um ethanol in it and it's also um like um oh what they call it uh where it preserves it a little bit stabilizer stabilizer yes so information but this is what you want to want to use but the the fogging one the other one you're wasting a lot and you're throwing on the ground we don't want to be pollut in the ground when I was a kid it was Pam cooking oil we used to spray inside the shoots to keep them from sticking yeah it my case it was a bigger shovel anyway thank you thank you appreciate you thanks David Mr SCH John schal it works I know we tuned it up it's like Christmas morning isn't it 2750 Chism Avenue what a surprise the biggest smile yeah John you're glowing you are glowing would have turned it up years ago anyway uh first of all um multi things uh the Alexis Nexus crime report is not working again it must has been at least the fifth time that I've uh opened it up and there's only Maplewood I brought it up with the uh office here and they said they take care of it's been a week but I just don't know why they pick on us that they don't want to have us uh our crime reports um the other thing is is uh tonight you're going to vote on uh giving away uh uh 1 million. one uh from the hard-earned uh wages of the city uh residents who've paid for their electric bills and they paid too much and the only positive out of that is that uh you're not going to raise the rates for next year according to this I don't think you'd have the coonies to raise the rates and but first give away money and then raise the rates but you never know what North St Paul would do uh I would suggest uh issuing uh you know there are walls checks that when they took too much money in at the state I'd suggest uh mongy checks to give this money back rather than sending it off somewhere else especially since the biggest payers are probably the churches in the city and the schools so most of the money came from there and I think they could use that money a lot better than we could use it but there's not a chance in you know where that that will happen and in trying to understand which is if you're not an accountant with all this budget information that you submit M for us to look at uh we have one item here uh for the electric fund that said there was a change in position now what's a change in position what was the position and what was what is the new position is that really a fund balance what is that is that a government thing and then I look into today into the uh resolutions and it has the same figures for the electric fund and it says revenues expenditures and a fund balance and our fund balance is a negative 1,161 148 well at least you don't have to have an arm guard on something that hold that holds money it's probably in a drawer yep it's probably in a drawer M somewhere that says I owe you can't you get these things straight we look into that change position just to get an idea they thank you very much John Scott please state your name and address good evening mayor and Council my name is scottw I'm your building official at least for the next 15 days or so um I sent you all an email a couple weeks ago I sent another one today there are some things that I I think you need to know about the process that I was disappointed with I'll put it that way I don't believe that you were given the proper unbiased rational information you needed to make an informed decision about selecting your building official so far in 2023 the city of North St Paul has collected $656,000 building permit Revenue excluding the technology fee and state search charges so that's money that was paid here and some of that was paid to us and some of that was retained by the city if we annualize that it's a little bit more $715,000 if we divide it by 11 multiply it by 12 to get a a full year I guess it a full year number um that number is a big deal and it's not the kind of thing that um you know it's not like changing batteries right this is a big deal it's going to affect four or five people uh their gainful employment and other things and I I'm not here about sour grapes about the fact you picked them over us I'm hear more about the process and what you don't know about what you did there are two areas regarding fees that need to be discussed and and frequently cities and city councils will confuse those they will talk about the fees that we charge and the fees that you charge and I just need to make it completely clear that the city's fee schedule is the city's fee schedule and what I charge you under our contract is a relationship that we have in in that contract and if you make your fee $2 I'm going to get 75% of that two bucks that's the way it works um so just to be clear your fee schedule it's not my fee schedule not rum River's fee schedule despite what may have been represented in the discussions leading up the the leading up to the decision to change vendors your fees are going up I was uh watched the meeting after I left I didn't realize you were going to talk about the fee schedule later it was in staff um discussion or whatever um in some cases they're going to go way up as much as 272 over what they are currently there are fees that are $62 now that are going to go to $170 that's to change out a water heater to have a new furnace put in that's what's on the fee schedule that's in front of you tonight the uh change in the fee schedule will cost your constituents at least 36,4 82 in additional permit fees based on last year's activity with the new fee schedule applied to it this was would result in $182,400 in additional fees charged to Residents over the next five years we talk about the community center not having enough money and when I was here two weeks ago it was the truth and Taxation hearing and money is an important factor in decisions that are made I don't believe that we offer any different Services than Rum River does so it's not about are we better are we worse uh in this case I believe you have to kind of almost choose as if we're a commodity and who's offering the better uh consideration to the city and to the residents of The City the second piece of the fee component is the contractor proposal the um the what we're charging you and in our last contract we offered a 5% discount for a five-year contract and I offered the same thing this year so instead of 75 we offered 70% that difference between what we proposed and what was proposed by Rum River is either five or 15% less than that we're than they're going to charge okay sorry it's been past three minutes it up yeah sorry that's what that was for but um we can uh so that difference is $441,000 a year $28,000 over five years uh $391,000 if you put the two of them together over five years in just raw dollars with the fee schedule you're about to adopt and the contract that you um signed on to um in the at the previous meeting um okay thank you you're welcome Carrie biss please I'm Carrie B I live at 2887 Lake Boulevard in North St Paul and I'm here to once again to say thank you to council member nordby council member Wong council member schweer council member Cole and mayor mongi as a North St Paul resident this is a you guys have a hard job to represent us as your constituents and to make those hard decisions day in and day out giving your time you get a stipend it's not that much I know but I really appreciate you guys and I thank for your service thank you very much appreciate that thank you all right we'll wrap up the public hearing at 6:48 or the yeah not public hearing what is it public comments yeah open to public there we go it's back now is there anyone on oh thank you anyone online thank you okay Brian all right public hearing 2024 Municipal fee schedule and rates uh ordinance 824 turn that over to Brandy what open the public open the public sorry yeah open the public meeting at uh 6:49 thank you the city council establishes a fee and rate schedule for permits licenses and services provided by the city uh staff review the fees and charges for services annually and makes recommendations for adjustments as necessary the city council considered amendments to the fee schedule at the November 21st and December 5th meetings the proposed amendments to the fee schedule include those that were reviewed and agreed upon um specifically with relationship to the park Pavilion Rentals that were discussed at the last council meeting as well as the other um amendments that were proposed the fee schedule has been advertised for public hearing tonight it is proposed that the city council adopt the fee schedule and utility rate schedule with increases as proposed thank you any question not you move to adopt Mr Mayor you did open do you want to it just do you want to just make one more call for the public hearing I understand the likelihood of that but just to make it clear that it's open and then close it public hearing is open if not we'll close it at 650 anybody okay call for motion so moved so moved council member s second anybody second second council member Cole all those in favor say I hi hi I almost did my own clo in there for a second there get myself involved thank you all right let close we move on to business City business action items and recommendations uh first up item a 2024 budget and Levy overview which will cover adopt resolutions for 2024 final general fund budget and Levy adopt the resolution for 2024 final HRA Levy and adopt the resolution for 2024 final Eda Levy we have Mr winck here Finance director thank you Dan come on here uh council members thank you very much um tonight we approve uh budgets and levies um and so kind of want to give kind of a just a high level overview I didn't prepare a presentation since we've had so many of them as uh through this year um but um on item a and on Item B all of the budgets uh even all the way down to the line item all the narratives everything is showing um true transparency and the budget for 2024 um the item a is is the general fund and the levy budgets and then Item B is to adopt the non-levy budgets would include our Enterprise internal service funds um special Revenue funds um just kind of a high level kind of look at it from a levy perspective the general um City business um General Levy is going to go up uh 8.5% uh the city um component to that is 6% um there's a Debt Service component to it and if you remember there's uh you know 2 and 1 half% 2% going to streets and a half a percent um approximately a half a percent um that will be um going over to um uh the park fund uh the levy is increasing uh $557,000 um from um from 600 6 approximately 6.5 million to 7.1 million um the HR a levy is increasing $1,000 and the Eda um is staying the same as it was in 2023 um that's the levy components and the non-levy components um in the Enterprise funds um the budgets that are presented in front of you represent um and was just part of the rate increases uh waste water and surface water will go up 4% all the other remaining ones will stay the same um and then there's a the transfer of the 1.1 $1 million from the electric fund into uh the Street Maintenance fund um what shows on the levies um that was brought up earlier this evening in the public forum prior to it of showing the fund balance for the electric being negative of approximately the 1.1 million that's on an annual basis that's what we're what you will be approving today the revenues and the expenditures so of course if you're transferring 1.1 million you're going to show a negative in your fund balance does not mean that the fund balance from the electric fund is negative $1.1 million I'll guarantee you it's not um so uh we're doing perfectly fine um on that standpoint um and uh so I'll I'll entertain any questions on item number a um right now regarding uh the general fund and the levy and the budget um the HRA budget and Levy and the Eda uh budget and Levy and after we've gone through all the questions there's three resolutions that will need to be approved thank you appreciate the any questions from anybody I think we went through okay we've pretty much gone yeah gone through so so the and and just as a reminder the only change that happened from what we saw two weeks ago for the general fund was your decision to um you know uh reduce the budget for um health and safety and and basically transfer that over to um the Insurance Fund um so that is reflected in all of the numbers thank you so go Ahad yeah one thing I would like to note um looking forward is um you know focusing a little bit more equitably on how we uh distribute and allocate our funds um I would say that the process was really well done um I appreciated the level of Engagement and involvement um and I think uh we have some work to do in terms of looking at uh all parts of the city okay just go down the line one two three yeah do we have to read the full complete or just to you it's up to the council you could in my opinion make one motion for all three resolutions but you can certainly do them one at a time if that feels better to you can I get a motion to adopt all three so moved so mve council member Cole second second council member Norby all those in favor say I I I thank you item Item B is the to adopt the 2024 City non-levy budgets and in there you'll see the proprietary or the Enterprise funds and the governmental um funds and again um the significant um change there the two rate changes for waste water and surface water of 4% increase and again the transfer uh for electric of $1.1 million um there is a resolution that is attached um to this that um also needs to be voted upon can I get a motion to adopt the 2024 n ly do we could ask questions for I'm sorry certainly can sorry um Dan I I know you and I have talked about this before I would just like to go on record where when we are doing our budget next year um I would greatly appreciate um in in the city council's um review of that budget you also give us the option just to review um the repayment of that 1.1 by decreasing the 300,000 um over a year schedule um that you and I had talked about just so we can evaluate um to see if we can get that um budget back on track for the 3 to five year plan yeah um to give you a little bit more information yes we'll definitely be a part of the discussion um in early part of uh 2024 um and we obviously timings everything we can't bring it up today because we don't know all of the information at this point in time that some of the information is coming in um when and some of the members were here back at that time when we approved uh the street projects for the 2022 we went out for bonding we also identified arpa funds to be utilized those arpa funds need to be um spent in no later than the end of 2024 um if you remember uh as we've kind of gone through the 2022 projects um just because of coming out of the co time um and inflation um prices were just crazy um if you remember on the seventh street project itself s the original scope of service for that project uh when it went out for bid was significant higher than we ever had anticipated it needed to be um paired down and and um rebid um that bid itself um came down to a significant reduction um from what we were es estimating bottom line to it is um we should spend all of our bond funds I'm not anticipating that we're going to spend all of our arpa funds on the 2022 if you remember we were awarded approximately 1,350 $50,000 in herpa funds um we're working with our engineer to try to get to the best final numbers that we can on um on all of the projects um not all payments have been have been um submitted for payment at this point in time that's kind of why we can't do this at this point in time but it um with the AA funds having to be spent by 2024 one of the items that we're going to be bringing forward once we get all the information is that we're going to give options to the city council on to what what do you want to do with whatever those savings are in the arpa funds um and one of them can be to repay the electric loan one of them can be put into the street fund one could be putting into the the park fund and facility fund and so forth I can't give you a a definitive dollar amount at this point in time um but that item will be coming forth for discussion and then for city council approval in the early part of um 2024 so we do not lose that our money so just for for your awareness so again I I I think I I've been very proud of the city council the discussions we've had on the budget um staff um from um my own staff and and Mary Kay in particular and all of the the department heads and I do love the public comment um because it always makes us think and it always makes us look at different opportunities so even though we've heard that 1.1 from a public common over and over again it hasn't been lost on anybody um we're always looking at ways to try to reduce um the impact for our residents um so that item will be coming um probably February March of of 2024 once we get the numbers solidified great thank you is that are you good yep absolutely great anybody else all right thank you Dan so can I get a motion to motion to approve okay okay council member Norby second second second council member schweer all those in favor say I I I thank you um item number c to adopt the 2024 2033 Capital Improvement plan um city council um discussed City Council has been presented the capital Improvement plan a number of times through uh the 2024 budget process the last time being October 23rd of 20 23 um in addition on October 25th the Parks and Recreation committee reviewed the CIP and approved um with recommendation they did have one change that they had asked for um that we have uh made since what you saw in the October 23rd which I'll will tell you all the changes that have been been made to the plan um and then on November 2nd um it was brought in front of the Planning Commission um and there too it was approved and that complies with the 2040 comprehensive plan um from the CIP plan that you saw in October 23rd um Community Development had um removed um two items um there was an item on there that was to be funded in 2024 and the amount of $60,000 for the uh Sea Boulevard conversion design plan um and then also one that was to be funded in 2033 of $56,000 for the Downtown parking in Green Space um part of our discussion on the 23rd um there was an indication um to move uh for the police department um uh police garage doors from 2025 to 2024 in the amount of $195,000 that's being reflected here on the CIP um that's presented in front of you um and then uh Street Maintenance um removed an item that was on um the plan to be funded in 2031 and $229,200 for the old Medical Center parking lot and then the final change that was made was a recommendation that came from the paron recreation Committee in where we had um a funding source in 2024 to be coming from Park dedication funds um they would like to see that come from the park fund instead of the park dedication fund so we've accommodated that within our plan um those are the only changes from um the time that you saw it um on October 23rd uh so if there's any questions uh certainly we'll take those um Dan please forgive me as a new council member I don't know the right way to do this um but I just got a text from a resident that apparently our streaming stopped and I just wanted to make Carrie aware oh so sorry for the interruption Dan no question we thanks for bringing that up appreciate it we try to get back on good anybody else point point of order thank you all right I I have a couple things that I'd like to talk about um particularly for this year um I know we moved up the roll toop garage at $195,000 and uh a camera trailer if I'm if that's still on there um the camera trailer we haven't made any adjustments since what was on the presented and discussed on October 23rd mhm okay so sorry I so that one hadn't been changed since that time frame the the uh garage do was changed yes correct y yep so um I'm just referring to those two items on the CIP um and uh frankly I think that is kind of a lot of money when we are looking at $195,000 for a garage where when we look at the CIP and the long run we're looking at a 10-year plan we have an architecture study coming we have other types of planning um and so I think this is a little bit cart before the horse um we don't know um how that architecture might change the whole building or that part of the building building if that makes sense um the other part of it is I think that we can also um save more money if we just do a commercial garage and then as for the camera trailer I think it goes back to um the what is what is a broader strategic plan um and what is the plan of how how to apply the these are are there reasons um around needing a camera trailer now versus you know down the road um that that wasn't clear to me that that component so there's just different components that are seem a little bit disjointed and so that's why I'm pulling those two items for discussion to remove from the 2024 CIP I need some guidance here you mind if I jump in that's why I'm I need guidance actually I agree with you on the um garage stores too I mean I don't know how those got pushed up front we haven't gotten bids yet on any local contractors that can do that work as well um I think there would be significant savings office something like that um I know it was brought up about the speed of the doors but um we've already had some damage to the doors now that slower speed or slower speed um but I think there's just some things worth looking into um I would imagine even home Garage openers if you go from a half to a 3/4 horse it goes faster it opens door faster as well so I think there's other options to look at before jump to something like that that's my opinion question is the panels any panels that have been damaged have they been replaced or are we dealing with broken they're ordered at this point yes we have an ETA on those uh no they it's a unfortunately a company it's out of Canada it's taken a while to get them and um because it's through Canada it's considerably more expensive is that the one for the fire department or the police department specific PD correct one up front the fire is busted too correct all right we have a couple same Canadian same Canadian form okay how do we go about if we don't get an ETA I mean I mean the doors workable I'm sure started with that first it just slows the time down and I think that's why we push it up was because it slows the time down and them getting out of the garage and that's it's the specific if you're facing the garage I want to say it's the left side of it there's a panel and that's the last panel that they had they and they rigged it is what I understand that affects the speed of the garage door correct and I already gave uh Phil the go head to get that panel replaced so that's what's on ordered for that but you know we don't have an ETA uh he did not tell me the ETA I can get that information for you though but we do have it ordered it is ordered so we're getting it fixed it's just hasn't we just don't have a time frame yet correct and it is working it is anything so for me um I am fine with leaving both items in the CIP and the reason for that is nothing can be acted upon until it comes in front of council for approval again anyways so just because a speedy doors in the CIP doesn't necessarily mean we would approve it when presented so I'm comfortable leaving um leaving it in there um just so that we have funding there's so there's funding set aside so that when the outcome comes and if it's con considerably less we've still accounted for it as opposed to pulling it completely or if we don't get the panel it gets lost and doesn't come we have other options and because we're going have to replace that door brand no matter what we do may not be the cor certain kind okay I agree with that I do appreciate your perspective council member Wong with the architectural study and pulling that so thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention any on your side ju just wanted confirmation from Brian or Dan that what council member Cole said was correct is leaving it in there doesn't Tire hands to anything future discussion is available for both items yes we can bring forward more than one quote too for different options no no wait no because the the resolution um and we had this last year and this year uh when you pass a resolution you're adopting and approves the 20 the capital Improvement plan and then also you're um authorizing the mayor and the city manager to enter into agreements and execute change orders and amendments to agreements in accordance with the city's purchasing policies and procedures provided the amounts are within the budget of the specific project and have been identified in the approved budget so in other words it will not have to go back and for front of city council to be approved so um if you want to leave those two items within the budget um you can make a uh friendly Amendment um to this resolution requiring those two items to come back to city council for approval for me thank you for clarity thank you for thank you for asking it was a misinterpretation on my part um I would like for them to come back in front of council that's you know keep it in there from a planning purpose but I think there's different Alternatives and there's different options absolutely MH so it's a friendly Amendment Lisa um yeah I think in my mind um I see that that kind of funding um that could be allo allocated or invested in um our community center or other spaces and places and I don't think that again that the budget was as Equitable as it could be and so I'm thinking that if we can operate you know even a community center for a few months um or even a a small amount of time that's way below you know this cost even and so that's just kind of where I'm coming from is the tradeoff anybody else so we have two all right lawyer sorry turn on your mic well so we have a a motion with a friendly Amendment would remind me if that was seconded I don't believe I don't believe it was so as we sit here right now you have nothing until you have a second on that I didn't know we even did a first one on that one yet did we I thought we didn't I thought Jason did with the second with the friendly I thought Tim did oh so yeah okay so we have nothing on the table yes I make a friendly Amendment well actually no one's made a if no one's made a motion we need a motion okay is that back to me to you who whoever I would like to make a motion that we adopt the friendly Amendment to the two items that were in question um that come back in front of council before uh any Financial spending is done on either of the items yeah and just to be care approval and and discussion and that's actually the motion you would perhaps sometimes you can get loose with Robert's Rules and have a friendly Amendment once there's a motion on the table but actually the the motion is to adopt staff recommendation with those two modifications okay and Dan are you clear on the two modifications um yes uh just a clarification the city council um that I have not uh you know misinterpreted this it would be that the two items that would be required to come back in front of city council to be approved um before anything could be uh any legal obligation could be created would be the police garage doors in the amount of $195,000 in the chair uh trailer camera in the amount of $55,000 is that your motion that's your motion Tim okay okay do I have a second second second council member s all those in favor say I I Nay Nay Nay thank you done thank you thanks Dan y appreciate it job Dan Mary Kay thank you very much thank you we look forward to June again got Mary K you got six months off yeah the AUD well after the Auditors are done yeah on behalf of the finance department um would like to wish all of you a very very happy holiday um and uh look forward to seeing you next year I will still be here but so are we it's not an election year no I meant it I meant it from the stand but I I'll be work I'll be working through that time but you won't be reconvening until January so thank you thanks thank you all right next up item D resolution to deny a variance to the sign ordinance we'll turn that over to Brandy Hower community development director um the Planning Commission held a public hearing and considered a sign variance request from the American Legion on November 2nd of 2023 that variance request was to allow the placement of an electronic message center sign on the building wall at 2678 7th Avenue the the legion which is a prohibited um by the sign ordinance under our current ordinance electronic message center signs may only be placed on a freestanding sign structure after considering the applicants testimony and the findings of fact of the request the Planning Commission concluded that they could not Grant a variance to the applicant because the request did not meet the criteria for variance as per the municipal code um specifically that economic hardship cannot be used to constitute justification for a variance request at that same meeting um this leads us into the item e on the agenda the Planning Commission considered alternative paths to allow that request to go forward by the planning I'm Sorry by the American Legion in their discussion it was decided that the sign ordinance is too restrictive regarding electronic message center signs and they directed staff to prepare an amendment to the sign ordinance that would allow them to be placed on on buildings as wall signs the proposed sign ordinance um as I mentioned is item e it's next on the agenda is a simple amendment that eliminates the Restriction that emc's only be permitted on a freestanding sign in addition that Amendment creates a a new section of the sign C code that establishes clear direction for the procedure to amend the sign ordinance which prior to this amendment is not included in the ordinance it is staff's recommendation that the city council approve the resolution to deny the variance and to um approve the resolution amending the sign or ordinance and that gets to sign up on the legion right it does MHM and we have to vote yay to deny it um just right sorry to interrupt just as a point of clarification because my significant other um does work at the American Legion I wanted to ask for clarification whether I'm allowed to vote on the denial of the variants so it's a good disclosure and I do feel like it's important that everyone understands you know the full scope of these things um I do feel like council member Norby can vote on this particular item there are instances when people would be disqualified based on relationships and land use applications this one is far enough down the line where I don't feel like that exists um you can always air on the side of caution and recuse yourself but I do not feel like you have a a conflict of interest on this particular application so if you choose to vote I think that's fine thank you y thank you for the verification all right can I get a motion to resolution to deny the variance to the sign ordinance so mov your honor so move council member Norby second second council member Cole all those in favor say I I I anybody okay thank you now it's letter e m now we got to consider so we're going to go through that then oh we're just going to go right straight through all right all right e can I get a motion to consider so move so move so move council member Cole second council member all those in favor say I I I against thank you all right next item up is item F consideration of an amendment to the zoning ordinance related to assistant living arrangements uh the Planning Commission held a public hearing and considered an amendment to the zoning ordinance at its December 7th meeting that modifies the land use table to allow assisted living arrangements serving six or fewer persons um and daycare facilities serving 12 or few in persons as a birght uh land use in all residential districts similar facilities serving greater than seven and 12 persons respectively may be permitted with a conditional use permit the modification aligns with State Statute that preempts local authority to prohibit these uses in residential zoning districts the draft ordinance that is presented in the packet was prepared by the city attorney's office staff recommends that the city council approve the ordinance to amend table three in the zoning ordinance as presented okay thank you any questions I was at the Planning Commission when this was discussed this is basically to get our city laws in line with state laws so to to me it makes absolute sense of why we're doing this can I get a motion am so moved so move council member Norby second second council member Wong all those in favor say I hi hi n thank you one more one more item G is uh bringing down from the consent agenda for the berwald property conveyance turn that over to you Lisa yeah so let's see so one of my concerns here is that we don't necessarily have a value for that piece of land I understand that it's kind of a unique piece of land and it's landlocked um however we've had a discussion about knowing the value of our land um in other situations and I don't think that this is any different um so I I would really like to have that um value before making a decision does that make sense questions I'm open to talking about it oh yeah I was going to I um I did some research I was looking at that too because I was the one with that said we need to have um evaluation so I talked to um a few of the the Mayors and I also talked to some real estate agents real estate lawyers when it comes to um a land where you can't have access to it as far as there's no way to get to that land because you can't and I was there today this is the map I received I was down there at bwal so I wanted to take a look because I wanted to make sure what the property look like so when I look at this map and the map that was in there it shows sepla is a real street so that's what really confused me because sepla ends like right into his garage doors and then it was abandoned and given to the land owners all the way down the rest of the way so that's the land of the people we have as far as that owned the land before this one here was um back in the it was um a spur for the for the railroad so it was maintained and taken care of by the people that used it and then the other locations when I did some research for the other Spurs were given back to the people that already had the land around it so to me when I look at it you can't get to it without um a very without a from somebody to get access and it's been used as their land we didn't know about it until just a few years ago it was one of those things where it was um it was overlooked so I talked to uh a half dozen Mayors I talked talk to the city of um Oakdale mayor they had the same thing down in um Tanner by Tanner Lake down there was an alley between that they never used that was a city-owned alley and a Gentleman went to go sell it and there was his shed was on it and he didn't find out there was an alley there so there was like two of them actually on that spot so two different people that had it so the city did a quick claim they had the people that own the land in fact they I was a little bit different because the ones with the sheds so they agreed that the land would go to them they start paying taxes on it it's part of their lot city of Maplewood they did the same thing right around um Lake faon where that trailers used to be where they had that Campground trailer place there was a path around there and when they did the senior building it was just a easement that was there that wasn't being used so that was absorbed into the as far as the city gave it to the project as well so and I also have the same thing from the mayor of uh the former mayor of of Lakeville that uh when it comes to these lands and cleaning up boundaries it's mess it's it's a long time ago our City's 1887 there was a lot of different places as far as you know cleaning up spots we have streets that were abandoned like sea down there and uh so to me there really isn't a value the way I look at it maybe you know a fee type of thing to transfer but but there's no way to get to it without using somebody else's land so and what I talked to Ghost realy and they said that land value would be zero because there's no way to get to it so I guess like my my uh concern about it is that it's not documented um and I think that's really important you know that say we get an appraisal if it says Z it says Z but we know what the value is and we can justify to the residents why we gave it away for a dollar um because it didn't have as much value so again it's it's still land and it still needs to go through in my opinion a vetting process basic appraisal try to understand the value of the land and then um yeah I think go from there but um I I do think that um this this uh just isn't enough documentation around it okay well so what are we voting on anybody else have any questions or any concerns do you want to put it up to a vote m if nobody else has anything want to read it so it would be for the bwal property conveyance of um that said property that 50 foot wide strip um to I'm sorry I don't have that in front of me but uh seven conveyance to balds oh you can slide up want me to do it yeah please would you sure well I one second so get the old mouse working property can convey sorry orwall property conveyance yep Mr Mayor to be clear I think there are another parcel in there too with the forestwood Holdings is in the resolution the north half if you will one half of that 50 foot strip would then go to that company yes so the two companies they correct yes they split it up so I have there is Burwell property what do I got to what do we vote on the the the resolution explains it the does talk about both Parcels in my opinion okay can you where I going to read that at where is that is it down at the bottom of the the paper on it I don't know what you what I'm supposed to say so there's a there's a resolution in your packet yep uh it it does the resolution number is not um assigned yet but it simply is a a resolution approving conveyance of real property contained in the resolution is what I would call uh the um transfer of the city formerly RightWay SL Street uh part of it is going to bald and part of it is going to force wood Holdings uh and that resolution outlines that so if there's a motion to adopt the resolution in the packet I believe that covers it thank you do I have a motion to adopt the resolution in the packet before we motion I want to make it clear that we have talked about property and land property and City owned property in the past and making sure that we have um identified the cost of it and that we're not contradicting what we're doing because we have made it a point to appraise areas and we should continue to make sure that it is appraise and that we're following our proper protocol um so I stand with council member Wong um we my understanding is that we we understand that obviously it's we can't get to it I mean it's it's land that we technically trespassing to get to Y correct we're just maintained it forever yep M but as we're motioning this and sitting up here and representing the city it's important that we continue to follow what we are asking to do what we're being what we're supposed to be doing here is identifying the cost of the properties and with everybody involved so it's important as council members elected officials that we follow through with what we say and we do that and I agree with council member Wong by identifying these areas and I I understand that it's it's a passby moving forward I I think it's important that maybe we all identify what's happening in the city and where there are passbys and if this is going to be at a cost of zero dollars it we need to identify those areas in the city um and reconsider that I think Brian looked and he says the one all the other ones that had Spurs went to the people that were the properties that it went through correct they weren and never put in the city name correct do we have a PID for this even yes the PS are listed in the resolution so both of those do have the because I know when we on some of the information we were looking we were called Ramsey County and they had no idea about it so has that been cleared up which is not uncommon it the the county on city-owned land especially these kind of Orphan Parcels if you will there's not a lot of time put in to go value them um you know and one thing I would just not to get into the weeds or get overly granular about it but what the state statutes talk about is when you acquire something via an easement there is a a direct statutory process whereby you can vacate that and the land does just go back to the surrounding Property Owners there you don't assign it to someone you just vacate it and actually the county reassigns it um and the idea behind that is you know when you do a subdivision and you require a land owner as part of their development process to give you an easement as part of that the city is extracting that land from them and you're extracting it because there's a valid public purpose such as a road drainage or utility easement and so what that statute says is well if you took it for a public purpose and you ultimately make a finding or decide there is no public purpose it's not it's not here for you to profit on it is here for you to turn back over to whoever you took it or whoever the then owner is and it's a very nice straightforward statutory process in my opinion that process only works for easements it does not work when you actually own the dirt and here it's a little different because you have acquired the land not via easement but in fee and so that's that's the discussion of does it have value um I'm not here I'm not a real estate appraiser um I'm not here to tell you whether it does or doesn't it is I understand the arguments of landlocked there's no doubt that impacts the value there's no doubt that when you look at this fairly it should be sent back to ex exactly who the resolution uh is contemplating I think to the point that's before the council and what you're discussing and debating is the is the absolute right discussion to have do you think it has value and what's the process to determine that so I think I think you're having the right discussion right now so it was a railroad um it started out as that how did the city get it when they didn't get the other ones do we have no idea on that so I I did not pull the historical twos and froze on this I know that it was conveyed in [Laughter] 1887 and I mean part of it is you know he has a building that's partway on it nobody knew it was his so that's kind of uh and there's no concerning to me yeah there's no doubt that it that it should go back the city isn't using it he is to me the discussion is is there a value associated with this land there's I it isn't should we sell it to someone else in my opinion and that is that isn't fair that isn't right and that's not what we're trying to do the question becomes does a landlock partial still have some form of value because as a city asset the discussion is is there a fair market value on it and if and again I think council member Wong touched on it if if there's documentation or due diligence to say zero then then you can rely on that that's certainly a fair fair way to go um and you've mentioned some some some things you've looked at you've talked too I think Timber ghost was at least one of the property owners realtor who said on his behalf yeah I think it's worth nothing um so that's that to me is the discussion uh for you you folks to have in terms of whether that land has any value one thing I would note not to complicate matters is when you give away or sell or dispose of land uh it is something that the Planning Commission often times will weigh in on you can choose to wave that requirement but that takes a 2third vote so contained in this um resolution is that you would wave the Planning Commission review but that would take a 2/34 out of five votes to wave that review um if there's discussion on hey maybe we want more background on this I don't know if it's necessary to deny the resolution we could simply hold it over um and you know get whatever information it takes to makes folks comfortable that we have the correct value associated with it so that would be some thoughts on a path forward it would be my opinion that we table it for tonight um I have full respect for what council member Wong asked for I think that we should spend the money and have have the property evaluated and find out what what the property is truly worth um it is again of my opinion that it will not change the outcome as to how I vote I still support giving the giving the property back to where it is but I I truly believe that we should probably um you know cross our teas and out our eyes a little bit closer and that's why I brought it up because like I said I've been the first one to talk about properties and but just doing some research too is is uh and I want to be you know fair to somebody who didn't even know it was done after you know since a couple years ago that it was that it was even on it council member Cole just for sake of clarification moving forward the you know whatever it is that you know we can get an appraisal we can get a limited appraisal we can talk to folks on that um you know talking to a realtor and having them give you something can usually be done free appraisals aren't is there a thought on what where that appraisal gets who pays for the appraisal as stated before I'm my decision's made so it's if we can if we can do it for no funding I'm fully supportive of we we gain that um but I'm I'm one of five yeah my wife's a realtor in her company you know she we asked around to as as far as that so I mean I was trying to do my due diligence on that part of it so but I agree with um if we can do that's why I didn't bring hers up because she's you know we're husband and wife but I think if we could you know find the other one was a $5,600 or something that was in the packet about how much that there was something there and that was 5600 for that was a lot more money than the I think they appraisal for the other one that's the full appraisal there was a $5,600 in there wasn't there thought I saw that down there somewhere did they see that maybe it was in the notes I I had a bunch of emails I printed off too so yeah this is a sheet that was a synopsis so pra approximately $5,600 what's something staff can talk to the property owners on um try and figure something out that would bring back the information that counil needs to make a decision and um Brian as a manager has a level of discretion and Authority in terms of spending or you know negotiation on this and if we feel like we need further direction we can certainly bring it back to you at your next meeting seeking that but in the meantime if there's a a motion to table it we can do that and um come back with any hopefully come back with the information necessary do I have a motion to table so move honor so move Council M Wong second second second council member Cole all those in favor say I I I I all right thank you all right next up uh reports from city manager and departments farmer staff meeting today uh fire department is continuing on with their training uh they're doing multif family housing permits and this year they're going to have another record for the number of call outs that they've had they're currently at 1632 calls um car's put doing a lot of work in our fee schedule and updating software um Public Works doing some tree trimming and cleanup at Southwood Park we had uh two more applications for the mechanic position which is great so we'll be doing those interviews later this week um finances certifying delinquent utilities and getting ready for the Auditors to show up uh PD had the shop with the cop um they actually put pulled some of their own money to get uh some of the gifts for those people they had 14 kids there that they took care of and the food shelf gave each family 100 pounds worth of food so it was great Co yeah and they were also picked for a post post audit which is just looks at all their training make sure everybody's up to speed on that so he's dealing with that right now um one more item we have uh just wanted to remind you we have an a crane set up on sepa Boulevard this is for setting the pre constructed uh concrete floors for that building uh Lily project will have the crane installed on sepa beginning December 26th of course that's WEA they're permitting SE will be closed at Helen Street and traffic detour around the project they anticipate the crane will be in place for eight working days after Works completed they'll um on sea the crane will be moved to 7th Avenue on January 8th 7th Avenue will be reduced to one lane of eastbound traffic through the construction zone and the westbound lane closed for approximately eight working days the next phase of the project will move the crane along the project site with additional lane closures and detours posted on 7th Avenue um and those signs I think probably started going up today and I hope everybody has a happy and healthy holiday that's it reports Council and commission committees council member Norby the we voted on a bunch of stuff that was from the last Planning Commission the next Planning Commission is on January 4th happens to be my birthday we have the Planning Commission chair in the audience today um so that's all I got thank you um as for the arts and culture um commission I believe that they'll be presenting um their uh kind of a year in review um in January so look out for that um we still have a call for artists currently for project snowy um and we have an open seat for a youth commissioner still so looking for um that IND individual um let's see and then their next meeting is the first Wednesday um in the new year and the chambers at 6:30 thank you council members the Parks and Recreation meeting uh will not take place this month I we have a new member that we will acknowledge next month and uh our next meeting is January 24th at 6:30 in council chambers thank you counc member Cole December meeting was not held it's canell uh the next meeting is January the 9th 3:00 here in CC chamberson thank you General Business Council just would like to wish everyone a happy holidays and a happy New Year um I would like to go back to the arts and culture commission really quickly um and a big thank you to stay C Maher she won't be um uh renewing her term but with us however um a lot of gratitude for her in terms of um just getting the whole arts and culture commission up and going so a big a lot of heavy lifting in those foundational days so a lot of appreciation for her um as for General business um I attended the staff event um and a big congratulations to those who have um anniversaries um um and it was really great event wonderful display of cookies and it just seemed like uh staff were engaged and present and having a good time so um thank you for for um having us there and then just a big thank you to staff uh there's been a lot of work done this year and so I greatly appreciate all of that and I hope that you have a restful um winter and holiday season and and um we'll see you all next year thank you council member please call I said um I want to give my sincere condolences to Mr Anderson's family I had the pleasure of meeting Paul uh this past year at a couple of the history events and that man is a true Gem of this city he is he was a wealth of knowledge deserves the proclamation this Thursday um my sincere condolences not only to the Anderson family but everybody that is suffering the loss of him including the Historical Society uh again Kudos and thank you all to the city staff uh this goes for everybody you guys had a lot of work cut out for you this year it's been a great year I've had the pleasure of working with you for my first year and I truly feel blessed to be walking alongside you for the next three uh I also want to thank everybody for my first year of service it's been great uh challenging but a lot of fun I look forward to working with everyone in 2024 I want to welcome everyone's concerns uh excitement and I encourage every single resident to attend these Council meetings your voice is heard we hear you please continue to to voice your concerns and positive accolades uh other than that I wish every single person uh employees council members residents a happy holidays and safe new year thank you council member cool the joys of going last um that's R you're right I'm betting clean up pal so I want to Echo everything council members who said about the Anderson the Anderson family um it's it's tough um yeah uh a big call out again it's been addressed by council member Wong and council member schweer just um thank you staff thank you for everything that you do uh you get at the short end of the stick sometimes we might not always be friendly and happy up here um so thank you for everything I greatly appreciate everything that that's being done um one other note that I had is I had the opportunity to attend the North St Paul Business Association fundraiser for the North St Paul police foundation held last week it uh the American Legion and I just want to say it was a great turnout and I want to thank the Legion for hosting it's it for me you're last thank you very much Happy New Year yes have a great holiday apprciate closed nice closed for the year I want to thanks I was went to the holiday the holiday party for the um and the awards ceremony for the city it was great to be able to talk to everybody walk around it was a really good event um reminder that I wanted to bring out long as we have our our lawyer here too is we had a little confusion with uh with our Eda we um sent out we have our emails for the city so and some of them weren't checking them and there were some meetings that they didn't see and things like that so we just have to encourage everybody that's on commissions and on the council that we use the North St Paul that's for your safety as far as any kind of data or anything like that so I really want to because they they didn't look at that and there were some issues with the meeting so that was part of the Eda being cancelled was just not the not the correct email so as the city we use our North St Paul email that's all we communicate with so it keeps the the data and everything separate from that as well so I just wanted to to remind everybody that that and wish everybody a Merry Christmas and I want to ask the young man in the back what he's doing here tonight is it a study come on up I'm very curious by the way there's a you spot open on the arts and culture welcome what's your name uh I'm Tyler Shaw I'm a resident in North St Paul and I'm a Boy Scout here working on my communications Mar padge awesome for troop 9817 in Oakdale oh good for you I'm glad you're here what do you think of it first time at a meeting yeah first time it was lots of information oh good well I'm glad you came thank you you want to run moved to North St Paul already communicating Oh I thought he said Oakdale oh that's the troop TR troop okay well good well I'm glad uh glad you showed up and it was glad to have you back there how can we support you with your badge yeah what do you need um I just needed the different views on some different topics and did you pick them good ones yeah good were they mine wow really yeah just kidding well good well I'm glad you came up and I was glad to see you here thank you very much for joining us you appreciate it thank you well call them out Mar yeah nicely done nice kid back there I really wanted to know who he was good well thank you everybody Merry Christmas and happy holidays to everybody and uh if I have a motion to adjourn so move so move council member well you're all quick when it comes to this adjourn motions but everything else you pulling teeth council member Cole second now we're that a boy council member Norby all those in favor say hi hi thank you appreciate everybody next meeting is