e e e e e e Town board meeting t for August 5th 2024 first item on the agenda is the agenda Patrick any changes um just to note uh on your consent agenda there was a change to the rescheduling the town board meeting it was actually to be rescheduled to the 4th not the 5ifth we did make that change on the agenda thank you for the Eagle Eye of supervisor ressel today so does that mean we don't have to pull it off we don't okay that's it yep Bo of anything no all right hearing none I need a motion move to approve the uh agenda has submitted with the one change of changing of the date from of 4th to the 5th of September second all in favor say I I I opposed right item three is approval payment of bills Steve you sign off I signed off move to approve payment of the Bills second all favor say I I opposed I right IEM Force approval of minutes from July 15th Mr chair have any changes once again supervisor ressel would you like to bring up your correction to the minutes oh under the open time section there's Scott mcum appeared and I do not believe that's his correct Anderly Lane address so I just wanted to note that we will change that in the minutes thank you did he give it to us or he just forgot where he lived he just forgot where he lived he's already one foot out the door it's pretty close to the Iowa address so is the Iowa address right well that I didn't didn't check that one didn't not check that one right yes but with that change I will uh make a motion to approve the minutes of July 15th I'll second that all right all in favor say I I opposed all right we have uh three seven consent agend items everybody okay with them mhm yep yes looking for a motion to approve the consent agenda I would make that motion I'll second that all right all in favor say I I all opposed all right that motion carries all right moving on item 6A this is old business this the Old Town Hall cell tower lease agreement Patrick you go over that or yeah it's just uh extending the lease as it is um I would defer to legal for any comments on that one I did review the amendment and U talking to the to Crown Crown Castle's attorney we made a few minor changes and U I would recommend you accept it Patrick did you look over this height is are they getting taller with this it's hard to the actual for the yeah no so it's just adding on equipment yep that was hard to tell I know the red and blue they don't give a a scale on it see this reference is going out to the year 2056 with all the possible extensions of the lease mhm I don't think I'll be around very few of us will at that point right time okay well it's that's a long-term lease but it's 5year incent updates okay so I'm okay with that any I I do not and I'd make a motion based on the staff review and recommendations approve the crown castle consent letter a memorandum and Third Amendment to the communication site lease agreement I will second motion May second I'll in favor I all right that motion carries moving on 6B is the Surplus property bid discussion yes Mr chair please is the board continuation of our bid process for our Surplus property on stacker Boulevard we did put this one out to bid we did not receive any official um bids on it during the period that it was posted however in the interum uh we have had uh a couple of interested parties and we did have one um uh official bid and they are here with us this evening um Consulting with uh with legal um rather than and for the convenience of the folks that might want to be bidding on the pro on the property um going down the road we Chad has uh recommended doing an appraisal on the property so that we have that available to potential buyers of the property and that is in the works yeah I was going to that's what I was going to ask if we I don't remember having an appraisal done the value of the property so I going to say we should do that before we entertain any offers well we did get an offer it is up to the it's the board's pleasure as to whether or not you'd like to hear what the offer is um Kyle Mason's been very patiently going through asking a lot of questions of myself I thought we had the bid here I'm sorry sorry back could here her yeah I thought it was a letter from Kyle is here in our pack it's uh appreciate you bringing in a bid mhm um and in the the offer I would uh I would recommend we hold off until we get an appraisal I think the value of the property is much higher than that and we I consider it a build of a lot I don't know if the board has talked about that or what you think so Chad do we have any legal requirement to sell it for whatever the prises at or it's up to the discretion of the board it is up to the discretion of the board but if you sell it for for much less than what it's appraised at that's a problem yeah I also would just have the board consider process here um I mean if if Kyle wants to come back in and resubmit a bit if it's if your motion passes tonight Tom um how do we avoid the back and forth I mean if we get an appraisal in we have a resident that wants to put in a bid puts in a bid the board Rejects have to go come back for the next meeting and resubmit a bid you see the cumbersome nature of this yeah what I'd suggest we could do is this is once we get the appraisal and if Kyle wants to resubmit a bid based on the after he reviews appraisal and the board decides at once to counter then you simply provide staff with directions as to exactly what the price is now understand that would be done in a close session because we're selling real property fact theoretically this should be done in a closed session with this but because we weren you weren't planning on selling it tonight um an open session is fine in fact an open session for this based on where you stand on the property is probably a good idea so everyone understands the process the board intends to follow well we don't have a formal action required tonight anyway so this other than requesting appraisal right yeah you want me to well requested appraisal or is that or and then you just want to table us discussion for a future Tom's already put a motion out for right put a motion out I didn't form it okay part of a motion but I could do that okay um you might want to ask the Kyle for any comment on it any feedback would be appreciated yeah if Jeff come up to the podium Kyle just state your name and address for the record yeah my my name is Kyle Mason um so I'm at 3916 Lakewood Avenue um so kind of right up the street from this property that's for sale um and my fiance and I just we really like the neighborhood and have um we want something good to be done with the property um so we're interested in that and uh potentially to build on or at least have that if we don't build on it at some point if that's not in the works for us for somebody else to build on it and improve on the the property and in the neighborhood as well so that's kind of our our plans with it and yeah okay well you understand where we're coming from then so we're we're probably just going to table this discussion until we get formal appraisal back so we kind of know in a range of what it is worth so we're not obviously having a fire sale here so yep that's very fair okay yeah we we don't need to sell the property it's just Surplus property so we're more my from my perspective more or less interested in what's the property worth and what could it's self so MH but don't want to dump it yeah and I'm I completely understand that my bid was a kind of a starting point with my I have a few concerns with the former well that's on the property um not having a real location of where that is um so yeah open to more discussion on it for sure Larry I I think you were at the meeting we discussed that vacant well didn't weren't you or was that Jim um stack stacker yeah yeah stacker y because I I I thought it was abandoned and it probably shouldn't affect the building site at least from what I remember from discussion with the engineers well that's all part of the information we'll have to gather and up together in fact the appraiser will need that information to uh properly appraise the proper appraise the value but just so clear Kyle that once you do make a for formal offer that will only be discussed in a closed session okay it's one of the three or four things that you can talk about in a closed session in a closed session that are left anymore so um and I would share the appraisal with Kyle before he would put in another bid but just a reminder I until Chad finds out some legal Direction on whether or not we can accept any bid or if it does tie to the appraisal above or below what that is we should know that before we have how waste his time sure Chad will this also have to be presented with like a formal purchase agreement I don't think we can accept just an email with a well I think you can have a tentative offer and then formalize theoretically you could it's not the way to it's not a wise way to sell property because of all the other issues involved in sale of property right but no I've seen it done I don't approve of it but I've seen it done don't forget my commission that too is zero we're going to get you a pink flower for that pen it's not peeking up for you all right thanks Kyle y I will send it on to you timing on the appraisal Chad couple weeks we oh more like about three or four weeks four weeks so if we're looking for a motion I would move to continue discussion on this until the second meeting in September to allow uh yeah that would be a good good idea completion the appraisal and review by the board I'll second that all right motions man second all in favor say I I I opposed all right thanks guys all right moving on six se Rams County Special permit archery hunt no comment get a rep did we no comment from staff this is just pop Lake looks like they're proposing to hunt this year which they've done through Minnesota B resource base for many years in the past and uh I think it's been pretty successful so well that's also very frustrating when we know there's a lot more deer right in Tamar and not they're avoiding that one well we know the winter conditions for the aerial fly over we terrible because we didn't have any snow so it would have been a guesstimate uh they do move around and but I had thought they had said earlier this year there weren't any there wasn't any interest on the County's behalf of hunting anything except the pop Lake yeah the residents were quite unhappy with that information being portrayed to them particularly the ones in uh between Anderly and West Bald Eagle to the open space to the north and those neighbors cuz they see their vegetation getting destroyed so but having said that Chad we obviously we just in consent we allow our couple of hunters to go into the uh F and Airport area so because that's open space we don't have any jurisdiction over it to amarak or or the fencing Point well it's send to control the county no we have no control whatsoever but so if but if we wanted to open it up for other parts of the township and as long as they meet the requirements we could we've been doing this for Benson airport for 10 years yes now there used to be a gentleman coming in for State tool I haven't seen him I don't know if he came out last year or not you did know yeah you mean the town board does have jurisdiction for hunting over the entire Township so you could other than except for a property owned by the by the county you could open hunting up for other properties it's just that questions whether you really want to do that well can can you roll us into like a a nuisance ordinance because some of these things are a nuisance well except for one thing nuisance is for human activity we don't have an animal nuisance well not that they pay attention to who do you serve no I mean yeah you know I know what you're saying but you'd have to enact a new ordinance I would I would suspect to deal with that we have a policy that talks about some of these larger properties and hunting on those by special permission haven't looked at that for years because most of those were related to the North Oaks company properties and they haven't had any Hunters on there for years either so um maybe would be something we could take a look at at the next executive meeting as far as the current policy and updating it specific which policy was at time do you remember uh 27e I have no idea Pat so to go through the book I mean but thanks for the qu good answer he wrote it down is it is it under the nuisance or or hunting it's under deer hunting I think or okay something I haven't looked at it for years so I don't recall but okay well it would be nice because if we don't get any snow again this year they're not going to hunt again and we know we've got plenty of deer yeah yeah they do move around I me I think on the way home I'm going to count six yeah well if it's St raining they do move around I'm not seeing many in my neighborhood this year and historically it's been just got counted 28 in his yard this winter Yeah well yeah this winter there was plenty around this is the first year that I've had deer chewing everything Insight in my C act so well I've got moved last year the last two years I had two bucks competing and rubbing and scraping and they ruined pretty much all the natural trees I had in my wooded area so I understand the issue and that's that's something we'll we'll discuss on a sure exec board meeting all right so then I need a motion for this uh hunt I would move to approve the Ramsey County Special permit archery hunt for for the popper Lake County Park area of the township have a second I'll second that all right motion man second all in favor say I I oppos all right that motion carries all right moving on we have a public safety commission item uh Portland Avenue Tom do you want this for your cred or do you want me to do it is it my cred good enough yeah um for this is yeah a petition received from a a resident on North Portland uh and it's not a petition it's just a letter he was working on a petition he was at the public safety commission with a cover a couple of his neighbors uh last week uh issues relative to or concerns relative to speed on Portland and maybe consideration for a stop sign or two to be added uh again to help reduce the speed uh Portland Avenue Ramsey County Road it's a county state aid Highway um not the first petition and again it's not a petition but uh that we've seen I recall when I lived over on the corner of Portland and Buffalo back in the early 90s there was a similar petition in the town action at that time was to have Ramsey County engineer Public Safety take a look at it and see if it if uh they would consider making those modifications I don't know if they did of course that was back in the time too when uh Taylor Avenue was acting as a collector instead of Buffalo and the board at that time made some in modifications to the intersection and move the traffic to where it should be anyway I would like to have Ramsey County review this Corridor again and and a comment on speed uh take a look and take a look at some potential stop Line St stop sign locations and maybe provide comments and why or why they don't install stop signs there or locations I thought the last time we were going to it was maybe a Township Road but we had to have a a actual traffic study and they were like $200,000 we were we're at or the safety commission is requesting that the Township Board request of the County Board do that to do this right yep County Board that has to act on that or just yeah County staff Oh They'll have to act on it I'm sure but it's time to look at it again there's more homes driveways on Portland now more traffic more development it's probably been brought up at least three times in the last 10 years formally and it's gotten declined each time now yes there is more traffic and it is a fast racetrack but they seem they used to hide under the at least my opinion hiding under that they couldn't adjust the speed because it was a state mandated deal for which road for Portland oh but that's not true not true no so I I don't have any reason not to suggest that they do it I just don't hold out a lot of Hope particularly with ch there's no that would be Victoria reinhardt's area I believe and she's retiring so it be starting all new so maybe it's a good time to well you're also starting all new Ramsey County officials seems like every time we talk to somebody somebody new that's going to change nothing but turn over maybe there will be some movement I I'm I guess I'd be interested in maybe having them do something with the speed limit but I'd want to see that for a couple years before you start putting stop signs every quarter mile also because that's just going to entice people to speed more than the next one so the county frch county sheriff will tell you the same thing Tom correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the safety commission wanted to start small with just speed limit uh being lowered and then evaluate it thereafter on a variety of platforms yes that is correct okay I me yeah see I pay attention good for you thank you well I'm curious how they pick these speed limits I mean I'm on a county road with a 30 mph speed limit that's straight and has more traffic than this one but this one's at 40 miles hour and kind of curvy areas so because it was that way for a long time and it was Rural and they just don't change yeah real quick I don't know Larry do you have any comments on sure thank you Mr chair and Tom board um when they set speed limits they they use the 85th percentile speed to set those limits so if the cars the 85th percentile speed is um 45 that's what they're going to set the speed limit at so you can request the county to review that again and see if the speeds have come down but um in some cases they evaluate those speeds and the speeds are higher than the posted speed limit and then they have to post it higher so um it's it's something that we can talk with the traffic engineer at the Ramsey County and see if it makes some sense to to St to do an official study to change that speed limit um also specific to the request is the sharing of data and Analysis of how they arrived at their conclusion the safety commission was very specific about that okay well it seems an odd way to do it because then you're just be basically glorifying the Speeders to get the speed limit up and demographics changes have no bearing that's why they use the the 85th percentile speed because that's the speed that most people are driving that that uh that Corridor yeah they are over the posted speed limit so process I mean how do we request this officially to happen is it coming from staff and Engineers or are we directing this to the board County Board chair or or what would you suggest I would suggest a conversation with the the traffic engineer for Ramsey County I like start there I like the less formal approach to start things off for sure all right so you just want a formal motion to have staff pursue the please traffic study yep with the County Traffic engineer make that motion I'll second that all right motion be second all favor say I I I all opposed all right moving on we have uh item s is a public hearing this is for Cameron Johnson a lot split this is a public hearing so I'm going to need a motion to wave the reading I'll move to wave the reading that was properly published I will second all favor say I I I and then I need a motion to open up I'll move to open the public hearing second all favor say I I I um Larry are you gonna do this one yes I am thank you Mr chair in town board I um um wanted to get here early to set up the TVs but I'm having some problems now so I'll just have to we'll have to talk and if you can follow along in your in your packet okay the wiard yes Steve were you at this meeting or no you were I filled in for Steve that night yeah give it a second here well maybe Tom you can fill me in on yeah reviewing the Planning Commission meeting Min I didn't really see the applicant's reason for the line movement okay well it's basically under one ownership now or one family ownership and they're looking at separating it into two properties as I recall the applicants here you can probably fill in some details at least don't have two separate PIN numbers prop identification numbers I would think they do I could be wrong they're two separate addresses two separate homes but I know historically they've been under the same family ownership they would have to be two separate PIN numbers otherwise wouldn't be a need for a minor subdivision okay this technology really speeds things up when it works May uh Mr chair if you look at the TD tkda memorandum for his PID it indicates the two P numbers thank you Chad page 63 of our packet shows the subdivision is proposed it's basically a lot line rearrangement yeah I I can walk through this we'll just go off uh off your packet here um so there's a a a lot or two two lots in uh common ownership the same property owner owns two lots one at um um 1574 Hammond Road and the other at 5000 Otter Lake Road and the parcels ad join in the rear of the lot and so the the property owner who owns both prop properties would like to adjust that lot line giving taking some space from one lot and adding it to the other um it would increase uh the one parcel to 43,4 fet and it would decrease the other parcel to 60,500 Ft in size um the subdivision ordinance covers this uh this topic and it's under a minor sub it's it's under the minor subdivision ordinance even though it's just a lot line adjustment um staff has reviewed the application and is recommending approval um we are we are requested um additional um easement along the the lot line of uh Hammond Road for the roadway 33t wide RightWay easement and then 10t wide um drainer utility easements along the side and rear lot lines this prop these properties were originally platted in the 1930s so they didn't have those those uh standard that are now standard um um 10 foot drainage utility easements so we're recommending that those are included with this the Planning Commission reviewed this at their June 27th meeting and is recommending approval um for this minor lot line adjustment so tonight for the board we're recommending approval um your options tonight are to approve the requested subdivision minor subdivision um deny the minor subdivision or table this request and so we're recommending um approval of this with uh um um the new survey that they provided which dedicated additional easements along Hammond Road and then the the lot lines all right Steve any questions comments no yeah it seemed pretty straightforward common ownership just minor subdivision a lot I see much to Tom got anything to add from Planning Commission no interested in public comment all right hearing no more questions from the board I need a motion to open up for the comment for the public I'll move to open the public comment portion all in favor say I I all oppos said the applicants here you want to come up state your name and address for the record please my name is Cameron Johnson uh live at 1574 Hammond Road uh my family has owned uh these properties since the about 37 so that uh kind of comes into play with what you're saying about uh easement um I've had surveys done had the uh um easements done uh going through a difficult divorce uh going about two years now uh part of that divorce is selling the 5,000 otterlake Road and that's where I'd like to be able to take some of that property from 5,000 add it to 1574 which I'm living at uh and just have that as a buffer so then hopefully somebody that purchases the house doesn't come in and put in 15 town homes so just uh trying to keep as much of the family land around as possible for for myself so that kind of answers my question I didn't really I didn't have to know the specifics but I can give you more information if you want well no just sometimes when these come up all of a sudden it's because you want to throw a large building in the back or that's why I was just wondering this is just a buffer just to kind of keep the woods cuz it's kind of landlocked uh without a shared easement for Road uh or driveway in from 5,000 or 1574 my property uh along with utilities coming in along that same easement line um it's all Woods landlocked how many deer do you have back there I got a couple bucks back there that are are going back and forth and bunch of Dos that are beding down and the leaves in the back so all right Steve you have any questions no Tom no thanks sir well this seems pretty straightforward uh there anybody else to comment on this going once going twice all right I need a motion to close the public portion I'll move to close the public portion of the hearing second I'll favor say I I I'll opposed all right any other questions or concerns none here I would based on Planning Commission review and recommendation and subject to the uh recommendations of the Town engineer and planner I would recommend approval of the minor subdivision as proposed I'll second that all right Mo second all in favor say I I I opposed you're good to go all right moving on item 8A new business this a State Fair Park and Ride no parking request Patrick you want to cover that yes um so last year and the same as this year we have a request by our town home associations over where there's State Fair um bus transportation and in the past there's been Liberties taken with parking in those neighborhoods and they requested the last couple years now to uh restrict parking through there the board specifics um in order to uh approved this request was that a the town home associations take ownership of maintaining the signs that are out there if they get knocked out they have volunteered to put them back up for us we will put them out initially Public Works will the board also asked that if there are issues with other residents or visitors that have uh problems with the way that the no parking has been outlined through those neighborhoods that the town homes be the contact we did that last year um and then finally we requested something in writing that they are the ones that are responsible for this and we have received or we have gotten all three of those um available to us at this point so it's really just a matter whether or not you want to do it or not well as in the past it it uh there's a lot of pluses and a lot of minuses to to this but overall I I think those those neighborhoods do get impacted by State Fair parking and so it as long as we're not obligated to take every complaining phone call um I I don't see any reason not to I I don't think we received more than two or three complaints last year and all three of them we sent either to Jim or Jim other Jim yeah so all right and then uh Public Works just all we do is put up the signs to take it back down mhm y Tom got no I that's what I wanted to hear is we're initially putting up sign yes and we're taking them down when we're done and we're placing them where they want them yes so there's no confusion but it's subject to our adjustment as we see necessary correct yep I'm comfortable with it and this has not expanded this is the same they had last year same as last year so no I have no further questions all right uh you want a formal motion on this Patrick yeah please I move to approve the request as proposed I'll second that all right or SP second all in favor say I I I opposed all right moving on uh accouny clerk administrative assistant position yes um Mr chair and board we uh are going to be making a uh or we have made an offer to an employee to fill our accounting clerk position um she comes to us from uh whiter bu of course she's had experience in AP and AR which are exactly what we were looking for um we received almost 40 applicants which I was surprised about and we ended up interviewing seven of them um pending the the the board's approval she has accepted the position questions thas just to be clear this this is our entry level Administration ative Financial correct position yep uh mostly uh we'll handle utility building there'll be some uh front desk requirements and she will also be helping Haley who is our new finance manager um in her job as well and all these duties clearly been explained because we've had trouble keeping this position filled for about 10 years now now I think we're on this will be number nine okay no it's one that I just I can't figure it out yet it's a revolving door the one who maybe it's you no no CU it was happening before I got here um the one who has survived the position is our finance manager now so well kind of another reason why the town goes out of its way to make sure we pay our employees going rates because so they're not out shopping and yes we lose them and we are uh doing some Market work in this whole Finance area are we not to make sure that if we're not missing something as to why we've had the turnover Mr rusic and I have initiated that conversation with MRI or M uh where we are working um on improving our organizational chart as well as uh charting out some uh new responsibilities for our staff well you're pretty comfortable because we're going through this big software update and overhaul and I think that's why we lost the last applicant the last position so I mean you feel comfortable she's going be able to fit into that we're going to find out it would be over me you know that's part of the reason we're looking at our outside HR consultant is to help drill into the issues that we we are seeing and hopefully they'll give us some answers because turnover is expensive no matter way you look at it so and remember this uh employee is in a six-month probationary period to begin with all right any other questions all right looking for a motion to approve the hiring I'll make a motion based on the interview process and staff consensus approve the hiring of Christine frenning to fill the position beginning August 7th 2024 of accounting clerkadministrative assistant I will second all right motion made in second all in favor iOS all right let him see we have hugoo safety concerns yes Mr chair safety commission was busy last Thursday Tomy want what back into this one well this was the discussion on uh Hugo Road North as I recall MH uh 30 mph speed limit request where I believe it's 40 it's 40 so a discussion with the public safety commission same as the previous one the County engineer to take a look at this one and you want to add that to your to-do list when we approach him sure yeah I think that's the best way to start I think maybe we were over complicating this on Thursday Tom I I i' like to make a comment though I I depending on when this happens I I still think there is a problem with the new school going to from County Road F all the way down Hugo Road and it may change when the school gets in session if so if they if they were miraculous in God got it early they're going to get different result because the major traffic for the new school is coming from the north correct and they're going to come down Highway 61 until they find out that there's a lot of traffic they're going to cut over on Hugo Road and come down like a racetrack so incidentally we also discussed school traffic patterns last Thursday we tabled analysis of that for after the first couple months of school traffic to settle in as to what uh what everybody's driving that which time the commission has requested analysis on that as well the timing to do this analysis though is critical because it may give you a different outcome so I'm just saying I whatever we go to the county and if they agree to do it it should be done after school start agreed okay but the speed limit is 30 up until the Bol launch right yes and then it's 40 to conro J yes I don't know for sure yeah well that's why you want to pull it back to 30 correct that's what I recall yeah yes so that's the section north of well directions are off right what I'm wondering is there are no houses after that why are they concerned about 40 from J to that because because they're ripping up speed as they're coming up through the clear area and by the time they get down to where tightens up and there's more homes they're in full blast at that point so it doesn't have anything to do with Overlake Drive coming in right there I had a little bit about that as well because the neighbor had concerns is from that corner as well I I just see this being an increase of a issue not a decrease of an issue with the new school I agree with you and so does a commission yeah it will be real interested to see what the traffic patterns are now compared to what they were before and what recommend because the traffic studies as we've talked about many times for the new school were done during covid by cell phone pings it's the only time they've ever communicated to me um which I question this the validity of the data and so um what me question the validity of the data oh so well you in the county get along so well I know maybe we should have Steve contact engineer no that would not be a good idea well we know it's changed it's changing with and it's because of the high school the whole dynamic's going to change well so when you when do you take when do you actually go out and analyze it do you don't want to do it now no probably in October after like we said when the patterns start to settle in mhm around the school yep you can communicate that right Larry okay makes sense to your engineering mind yes makes sense for us to review okay all right so you want that same motion yes please I'll second that no I can oh you can I thought he made it mov you are you the second Steve I'm the second he's he made it all fa sh hi hi all opposed all right that motion carried U moving on we have back in that neck of the woods Overlake Avenue and Lake Avenue CER yeah no parking signs um this is a very tight Road through there that the our nebor or this neighbor or resident appeared at the safety commission and made this request in addition to the Hugo Road analysis she is uh asking for no parking signs along the curve on Overlake Avenue and Lake Avenue subsequent to additional neighborhood input now they it sounded like the commission was in favor of this placing the no parking signs but they have requested that we get impact statement from additional Neighbors First seems remember I can remember this five years ago they were having problems with school buses making that turn with cars par there but nothing was ever done then why would they want to turn in there it's a dead end I can see it yeah tight roads there and uh or any kind of truck traffic yeah especially noway with so many delivery trucks I can see being a parking issue raised by the neighbor I my recommendation with discussion with Public Safety was just I'd like to see input from the home that's impacted there in addition to other uh homes nearby and if we could look at the file and see some of the history on this too I think this has come up before before we take any action well and plus all the sparking got to be done by the people who live there exactly so they're creating their own problem there yeah yeah they just want alleviate neighborhood problem yeah so get input is the best answer yeah I'd like to see some so maybe we uh maybe we table this until we get input from the neighbors and look at the address file first well do you want to just basically send out a a letter to all the people affected or how you want to handle this uh there's only few couple that are right down there that are impacted by if I'm right Tom yeah okay um maybe we do do a memo from from my office and request input that's fine all right you want a formal motion on that one uh no I I I would say we yeah this is Staff directive and I say you just table it until we get that data back or input so I move to continue this till second meeting in September again sure I'll second that thanks folks all right motion be second and all fa say I I opposed all right let me get back here all right that's our regular agenda we don't have any added agenda items item 10 is open time I know we have some folks here that want to talk open time Mr Sans you want to come up to state your name and address for the record good evening dick sand 2626 Santa Circle in the township and uh I had communicated my request uh to Tom and to Ed sorry Steve I didn't uh give you a call and I've talked with Dale Reed as well uh it specifically relates to the Improvement project we're having in the area and uh I did attend the first um public meeting regarding the Improvement project everything seemed to be fine in fact the meeting was held in this building and uh I didn't have any objections to anything what I did not know was that there was a request to remove the island with resp in in s Santa Circle and uh this came to our attention actually when the uh field engineer for tkda came out and was uh checking with everybody making sure everybody was happy with what was going on and happened to tell my wife oh yeah we're going to be removing the island and so anyway so that's the first I heard of it so that's when I got on the horn and talked with everybody um I I don't want to address all of the islands everywhere in the project I just want to talk about Santa Circle and the culdesac that we live on have only two houses on it with an open lot so the maximum is going to be three houses it's not a full culdesac for development purposes so I'd ask that the town not the town board do a change order and not remove the the C the island in the culdesac the um the field engineer told my wife that it was uh at the request of the public works department so it wasn't something that came as a Grassroots uh request uh not to out anybody about this but I was out one day while the guys were trying to locate a shut off valve and while they're out there the the one maintenance workers said I this is my favorite culdesac I said why is that he says well because of the island I'm in and out of here in two minutes you know there's very little snow to remove I said I'm sorry but I'm going to have to quote you on that and so I gave Dale a call and uh I've discussed it with him but uh honestly and I've seen in past years in other parts of the township where we've had heavy snowfall the Public Works actually pile snow in the center of the culde saacs well there's no need to really do that here because there's an island so they can pile snow there and uh otherwise it's kind of nice to have the trees out there uh The Greenery the trees are gone by the way my daughter was going to chain herself to the trees so they wouldn't tear down the was that your words or his St but anyway so uh anyway so we appreciate the that the town not remove the culdesac or not remov the island in the culdesac and uh just keep it the way it was I guess we'll just have to replant the the trees out there there you want to bring us up the speed were were all the culto acts going to be taken out in that whole project yeah I mean not the islands not the culture so Mr chairing Town board we have that that's the only one I know of that has the center island in the for a culdesac there were several islands at the entrances and that uh um those were reviewed and and a resident uh I think it might have been after the second neighborhood meeting came up and said why do we have these they're kind of a nuisance they're um this was before input from Public Works correct this was before input from public works and so we started to review that and start talking about that with public works and so we started to talk about well we have two entrances that have these islands are they necessary um um should we um review that and that's what we did revie reviewed it through the project and uh um we're proposed to remove those as well as the island that Mr Sans is talking about because I believe after talking to Dale they use a smaller truck to do your C toac because that island is in there not the bigger truck I am I I think I'm right on that and that's when you're talking to Public Works whever you were talking to driving that smaller truck yeah it's it's easier with a small truck but that means that small truck wouldn't have to be there now and if they use a bigger truck that small truck is making a special run to do that c to sack I did speak with uh um Mr Reed um late last week Friday I think they um they do bring a smaller truck in there any way to clean up um the culdesac and other areas so I was just wonder if that affected their decision or not on maintenance and but if if if we were to leave it is that a savings for the township it would be a savings on the cost I would hold you on I wouldn't hold you on a dollar of my but and then obviously if the trees are gone I'm afraid that might fall on your responsibility dick if you want so I guess I'll have to put them back up they weren't Seas so you know but they were out there are braiy so Steve question I was going to say the history of of that neighborhood um was that a homeowners association or is it still a homeowners associ never was single family home single family so never Association Township was always maintaining the street but not the not the island not the island the neighborhood maintains the island okay but it wasn't part of a Association no so and the neighborhood the neighbors were you and and then I've got the guy across the street from me who helps me out let's put it that way so okay you go no Tom no well summarized I'm interested I know I live on a CTO saac and and the big truck makes a lot quicker work of an of a culto saac than the smaller ones and they do bring the smaller one around to just to clean up the edges but when they come through happens with us I I got to say that uh we do have the big trucks coming through I don't know what they are Ford uh you know the big dump trucks with the uh 5 yard boxes on them so and usually sometimes the smaller trucks also do Trails if there's in the area so they need that yeah so they need that there for that reason so if it's if it's not a special trip I don't see it being a big deal but uh how do we if we were to not remove it how would it was that is Dick right all we need is a change order through the contractor it wouldn't even be a change order it would just be a directive yeah it would be just less curb and less uh binus that we would put based on volume isn't it yeah yeah what's pleasure of the board guys just uh all due respect here dick um I am concerned about a vote being unanimous in favor of the project to remove these islands um and then based upon the feedback of one resident we're going to change that that wored about the Precedence yeah I'm I'm concerned about the Precedence and I it's not just you personally dick I going forward um to hear that as a potential I just I I and I'm not saying that it will but there's the potential that opens the door for well this is why we pay Chad so those big b yeah legally could you do it sure but practically I mean that raises a good point is that we have one resident here who would rather keep the culdesac and it sounds to me like the culdesac really only affects uh two or three people you have it right here yeah I'm the lot split right uh but I mean this you know let's face it if changing the plans would make sense and would would make sense and you know deal with this the affected citizens I think yeah I can see doing it but you should at least have a public hearing and make sure everyone's aware of what's going on um isn't that a little late at this point no it's not because you're doing your changing the plans now or at least you're you're supposedly changing the plans right now project is started true I I guess yeah Larry so this pretty well under way huh it it started they've remove started removing curb and um it to to notice for a public hearing would would mean uh month a month okay well that's a problem then yeah is a problem that's a problem uh a month ago the time to I mean really the time to address this would have been at least a month ago before this thing got finalized um once it started I well Steve you know I did attend the first meeting and I don't know what to tell you I mean I don't want to have to come to every damn meeting that uh don't blame you no sorry don't blame you don't blame you so but I don't see the precedent if it were something where there would be a neighborhood interest uh maybe there's some people out there that are speeding down Portland Avenue that would object they would want to be able to come and speed through my culdesac you know but uh I just I don't see where there'd be a public interest for people that don't live on the cuac I understand your point but on the other hand are we setting a precedent that every time something like you know we can we can change plans on the Fly is that really a good idea I'm not sure I mean Larry that's more your end of it than is mine but it just strikes me as not a really good idea to be altering plans uh like that it's a project that's gone through the process right and and now um with approval of the the plans the way they are with removal of the KAC so yeah I see what you're saying I I understand what you're saying um you need to state your name and address for the record my name is Antonia Davidson uh 2635 Santa Circle D White beir Township Minnesota 55110 I wasn't sure how far I had to go with close enough can't go any further you're fine you're fine fine um we'll need to see a passport I I understand with the uh not wanting to set a president I I would say though that since it is really only our addresses on the culdesac and it wouldn't influence like if there were more residents feel like um located on the culdesac then that but percentage wise I mean aside from my mom we're at like 100% of that's why she's not here yes yes um of residents that this would affect on the cues act Tom do you have anything to add or to uh I'm comfortable with uh making a change here whatever we have to do I I'm a little uncomfortable with the process that said you know if one resident said can we just take these out and you know it wasn't really in public I'm concerned that we made that decision to do that I mean that was the original design we don't have a policy that says we're tearing out landscape Islands because why we don't like them Public Works doesn't like them we know they don't like called the hacks they're difficult more difficult to plow than a straightaway so um shoot I like the island design when we did it back in the 90s so i' I'd like it to stay um clearly these things need to be maintained and landscaped and Rel landscaped and it sounds like we've caught it at a point where we can we can stop you know stop the process and not delay anything else work around this culde act do we have to V for a public hearing if we're going to change this I don't think so no not really you're not removing something you're just leading something there and replacing I guess maybe some curb that's probably the whole point of if if we were adding on your request it would be a whole different ball game because then the expense would be more and now we are altering the design quite a bit I think leaving it isn't as hard of a pill to swallow even though I like I said and we have I don't know how many public hearings or neighborhood meetings on this thing to make sure we're everybody's on the same page especially when it comes to to assessments but now most of them should be happy if the thing is less that will come off the total cost of the project which means everybody's going to save a buck I don't know I don't know if it's if anybody's going to be able to feel it give us a re the assessment hasn't been adopted yet the the only problem I worry about is that if you're going to maintain that cult stack someday you're not going to be there and somebody else is going to be there and then they decide no no we're not going to do it then it's back on the Township's hands so that that be sticking in my prodct privately maintained that's exactly why I asked if this was an association to start with because the plans always are great to maintain public areas until it isn't and then it's been 25 years we've been out there maintaining it so yeah maybe in 25 years it's our turn I live there now there you go next Generation maintaining it the the talk about cost is important because if this actually did increase the cost that would really jeopardize all everything we've done so far legally mhm so the only saving grace here is the fact it's not increasing cost otherwise I'd have to re strongly recommend against any change I think uh I think staff and legal have expressed concern uh we will do as we're directed uh however I I I see this biting us down the road see what I see this biting us down the road changing not Midstream 80% stream down the road I mean this board has always been very sensitive to the views of residents and if you do decide to make the change I would strongly recommend you make it very clear that this is a very unique situation and do not expect this CH this to ever happen again because you're right you're you don't want to open the door to this kind of thing not that it doesn't make sense but you just don't want to it's a it creates a policy nightmare Mr Sans as being a ex-board member I think you understand what I'm talking about but actually too this does happen on other projects hmond Road was a prime example when we had to battle with the county for an easement so that that changed everything after we had it all situated that that came up so these things do come up um I understand your position on how to try to frame this so it does not come back to bite Us in the butt I'm not sure how we do that well just if you decide to make the change this would be a simple motion uh just make it clear as you make the motion that this is a unique situation almost to it's almost a finding effect in some ways but it's not all right well I I think if if if we go that direction I think it's also has to be clear that those we're not putting trees back in there not the township isn't paying for trees I mean that's it's public property but they are the ones that would be putting them back versus US I mean actually it's a these islands you're talking about are very unique from a legal standpoint they're not tell you what I'm not going to keep everyone here discussing the please well if you want me to I will but no uh no but well I'll apply for a dick uh but no it's it's it's you know these these kind of things are are very unique and the issue of who's responsible for what is interesting but it's not well the concern Chad is is that they've already been removed he he mentioned the trees are gone and and so now it there is a cost increase we get a reduction to one side but then you say okay now you put trees back well I don't want trees back maybe instead of just if you decide to do this to change the plans it should be done as a as a a formal motion and it should and as part of the motion should be made clear that the town will not in any way reconstruct the make any changes to his plans for that well no I take that that take that back you are making changes um exactly that uh town is not responsible for maintaining any of the uh Landscaping in this in the uh Island and will not take any steps towards uh rehabilitating the island uh Chad just maybe it's a point of order because this is open time do we have to have a formal uh some or application for Mr Sans can't they just direct can't the board just direct staff Jud you know let's Larry's raised a very good point we're halfway through you you're already under the product's already underway if you want your only choice would be bring this back again in September it it' be two weeks no no I take that back in two weeks yeah it's only the first meeting of of August but it sounds to me like two weeks is not a it's not a really good idea in a construction project like this I think a simple direct directive yeah would be good enough perfect yeah right well again then I will ask what's the pleasure of the board I will try to make a motion here um don't do consensus okay just I guess we're just going to do a simple directive instead consensus for staff directive yeah I was prepared for a motion well you could motion you could bring a motion to direct staff yeah okay motion to direct staff to work with the contractor to modify this section of the plans to retain the island as is uh uh due to unique circumstances where the uh property owner subdivision designer appeared not knowing or unaware of the uh completed plans which eliminated the culdesac islands and the property owner has stated that they would replant this island and I would say subject to uh Town input on the types of trees um I think I address this address that this is a unique situation of uh uh Communication Breakdown should we call it yeah I I'm wandering a i don't no you're fine yeah know I'm I'm getting off the point here a little bit but uh I don't know what your perspective is but I don't know if we should include unaware because yeah the the township as Larry has noted went through the process of publicly notifying res and Su neighborhood meetings and then finalizing the plans um that implies that we have to it could address and communicate with everybody individually and that's a very good point it could create um a higher level of of communication or a high level of of in know of notice than than Town's legally obligated to follow that's the only part of it that I would object and I would also add a condition that this only be done as long long as it does not increase the costs of the project thank you for adding that yes I would add that to the motion the directive yes well actually it's a motion is Megan gonna have fun with this one oh yeah that's our secretary who takes notes she's had it pretty easy the last few [Laughter] meetings that's my motion that cover it I hope so second I'll second it all right motion be second all in favor say I I I I all right sir don't ever put us in this spot again see me again for another 12 hold you to that dick all right we're still on open time don't tell me you got an island in a culac you on Ralph T 4294 Oak me Lane White Bear Township I have a few items about the development at White Bear Parkway in arter Lake Road right down here on the corner um my understanding is a building is going to be constructed and each owner of a garage in this building is going to own the garage until all of them are sold and then the developer is just going to leave um and walk away from this no well let's put it this way you're kind of you're you're right from the standpoint that if he does carry through with the idea of developing as a condominium as a commercial condominium eventually he will be free of responsibility however when you create a condominium you also create an association who takes responsibility for the maintenance so if your concern is there's going to be nothing there to to deal with maintenance of the property there will be an association that will take that that responsibility under statute okay so all of the new owners over there are going to have to form a homeowners association under the state guidelines yeah under the well actually the process of this it's under chapter 515b the Minnesota common interest ownership Act and the in this case the owner will have to create will have to prepare a declaration and create an association which will have to conform with 515b the requirement of 515b that requires a declaration which sets out easements responsibilities bylaws and it also creates an association then the association will take as they sell units off there'll be a point at at some point in time the owners the owner will relinquish control the association to the actual end owner of the end user of the units okay so we're going to have um a group of owners over there similar to condominium yeah like a town like a Town Home Project exactly so they're going to have to get together through a real estate agent attorney or some like herself to formulate a homeowner's association yeah the the way it will work is this is if they decide to create a condominium a commercial condominium they'll have to file a set of floor plans with the Ramsey County and the Ramsey County Surveyor has to approve those and when the County Surveyor looks at those documents they automatically require that the Declaration be submitted to them and if I remember correctly is this property I this property is torren or abstract I think it's Toren yes if since this property is torren that means not only do they have to satisfy the requirements of the county the County Surveyor they also have to satisfy the requirements of the county exam the title examiner for the RAM for amam County district court and they will require that they create a declaration that declaration I've done this so I know how what the steps are the the both the county both the County Surveyor and the examiner of titles will review the Declaration make sure conforms with the statute at that point then they can file the floor plans but they have to file declaration floor plans at the same time okay is a developer going to do that developer has to if he wants to he has to do it he has to yeah because until such time as he files the floor floor plans he can't sell individual units they don't okay well that's what I was concerned about is that uh there might be an oversight where the developer cannot be found anymore and we don't have a condominium in place to pass on responsibility to the new owners yeah if if they want to create a new T you create simple separate tax Parcels with each unit they have to have the de the floor plans and the Declaration filed otherwise the county will not allow the county won't create new tax Parcels until such time as the de as the floor plans and declaration are approved by the surveyor and in this case the ex of titles because the property is torr's property registered title R this is we just were informed of this what last exact meeting so they kind of came as a surprise to us too we assumed he was renting them out also that's why he knows the statute and if he knew that statute without that discussion I'd be worried yeah and one other thing too under the under 515b the statute the town can't forbid a condominium well I just um I understand what you're saying I I appreciate exactly what you're saying yeah and yeah um Ramsey County is then going to have to issue separate deeds and tax statements for each owner over there that's right they'll create separate tax parcels and they're not going to be happy about doing that either um one other thing they created a big pile of mud and Earth and soil over there how long is it going to take before that disappears I mean we turned something that was rather fun to look at into an eyesore a big one right now well that's the nature of construction Ralph it's not going to be pretty for especially with the weather not cooperating right now but I would Su I'm sure Michael Mike Johnson's made sure they have proper Sil fencing up to protect yeah they do but they I presume this soil came from a retention pond because I think the township could have insisted that they put in a retention pond because that property acted like a big sponge there are two ret there are two Retention Ponds right so that soil probably came from the retention Pond some of it anyway but hauling that out of there is not going to be an easy thing for the developer because where where is it going to go it's not soil that's going to create a good base for another condominium so well and that's their responsibility to dispose of it well make sure that they take that responsibility that's why we have Engineers on site on these projects building inspectors in building yeah in water creek or Watershed comp districts and yeah now we're making a big hard pan over there where we had a rather nice open Green Space and as project or me progress this this was Township property right yes yes it was sold this yes that's right okay it's your responsibility to follow through on it then yes yes absolutely understood okay thanks you're welcome thank anyone else going once going twice all right uh item 11 I need a motion to receive agenda materials and supplements so moved second all in favor say I I I need a motion to adjourn at 8:14 so moved second all favor I we are adjourned thanks for