foreign really good evening ladies and gentlemen it is now 5 30 and I will call this regular work session at the Burnsville city council to order the clerk would note that all uh council members are in the chambers as well as our staff this meeting has been conducted both in person and online um and uh people can view us.gov meetings uh or on Comcast channel 16 or 8 59. and our residents and whomever I would like to join us can do so at zoom.us slash join and more information is available on our meeting web page and in the council agenda packet work sessions we go directly to our agenda the first item on the agenda is the update on pedestrian safety efforts and community outreach and uh I am going to go to Captain Stinger who is going to introduce our guests and give us an overview before he introduce guests thank you welcome Captain thank you thank you madam mayor and council members for having us here appreciate you giving us just a couple of minutes I know it's a very busy agenda so we're going to do our best to keep it short and to the point but I wanted to introduce Amber Hanson she is with Ally Supportive Services and is one of our partners in our collaborative effort with Dakota County and our Behavioral Health Unit in addressing these pedestrian issues in these Outreach efforts so with that I'll turn it over to Amber all right welcome Amber thank you thank you mayor and Council for having me again I'm Amber Hanson with Allied Supportive Services I'm the executive director Ally's been around here in Dakota County for just about 10 years doing housing and Outreach Services today I really wanted to focus on just talking in a very broad overview of what we do at Ally what we're doing here in Burnsville we have been tracking city-wide specific data at for a few years I'm going to share that we've been providing a lot of services to the panhandlers in Burnsville and surrounding cities lately so I want to address that and give you some thoughts on what we're seeing on the street I'm not I'm not a public speaker by the way so um I'm going to do my best to do this or do we wing it didn't stay up there okay well there we go so this is the very broad overview of allies programs we have homeless Street Outreach emergency Hotel shelter for single adults housing support for the long-term homeless targeted Outreach for black and African Americans and a trusted messenger program and that is very specific to providing um covet information all these very targeted to Dakota County and the reason is I'm a Dakota County native been doing this for about 25 years and my passion is really bringing it back and serving our Dakota County community Hastings really but I used to come up to the Burnsville Mall all the time um part of what we do is collaborate with our local Partners years ago we started partnering with our Dakota County Law Enforcement with Outreach in particular it was not widely accepted at first but I thought that it was going to be the best way to serve our unsheltered or homeless population and we've been doing this here in Burnsville and Dakota County for quite some time other folks we work with is 360 communities the Dakota County Social Services the faith communities Dakota County Libraries specifically here in Burnsville we work very closely with bernhaven library to serve our unsheltered and connect our Parks departments and the local businesses they also have been very big collaborators with our street Outreach team this is the numbers that I've pulled quarterly from 2020 to now on who how many folks we were making contact with in Burnsville now this is very raw data we collect this at the best we can as in sometimes phone calls will come in and we don't know exactly where people are or if they don't tell us but this will give you a pretty good idea of um the trends and how many people uh it is seasonal we do see numbers vary by seasons right now and then increased collaborations will affect this trend I would imagine Q3 here in 2022 we're going to see already probably about an 80 percent increase in Burnsville contacts uh that is largely due to our increased efforts in connecting with um The increased panhandlers on the streets this is actually I think from Q2 but it'll give you an idea also of we do track it by City And if you notice the larger pieces of the pie there that bright orange one that's Burnsville so in Q2 we did have some of the most contacts here in Burnsville and then secondly you'll notice it's gray West Saint Paul and then I believe the um uh the other kind of lighter orange is it's hard to see from this far away might be um I think that's South St Paul so out of Dakota County um stats are up there and that is because um we serve people and get calls from folks that are out of County Ramsey County Hennepin County and Washington sometimes largely Hennepin County and that is a um probably the majority of the folks we're seeing here in Burnsville are actually Hennepin County residents unsheltered or sheltered um what we're seeing specifically with panhandling in Burnsville um we're 75 to 90 percent that's kind of a large range um are not Burnsville or Dakota County residents um this fluctuates a little bit um with the beginning we started really um uh connecting with folks I want to say late uh late spring early summer till now but most of them are not Burnsville or Dakota County residents um 90 are not currently homeless now in our third quarter stats that might drop a little bit to around 75 percent are not currently homeless their panhandling really um because it's lucrative and they're telling us that um they we're still offering services in alternate ways to increase their income improve their living situation most of them are not interested in talking to us or hearing about the services that we could offer them um it is widely known now that Burnsville is very lucrative so people are coming here um to make money panhandling so lucrative you mean that the people in Burnsville give them money they give them money and they give the most money um compared to across the border um maybe in Hennepin County or in West Saint Paul sells St Paul Hastings Burnsville is a place to be for panhandling to make a really good thank you is what they're telling us and word is getting out so we're seeing more and more and we're hearing it more and more um yeah um Amber one moment yes uh councilmember Keely sometimes the signs say I'm homeless 90 of them are not homeless that's true yes is there a fraudulent statements is there anything we can do with the fact that they are duping people for money by lying saying they're homeless when they're not number one number two um can we advertise these this stat this information like communicate to our general public that ninety percent of these people that are panhandling in Burnsville are not homeless and to not get duped by a cardboard sign with a a magic marker that says that they're homeless or whatever else they're writing on there guessing gessner's probably watching he's watching yeah yeah uh amber and um captain and chief I'd and the other is that I don't know what our attorneys would say but I think we that's a question we should ask our attorneys because you're right uh because I've heard from a lot of our residents who have said to them where are you from and they're usually all from across the river and then they leave all of the trash and they don't like that and a couple of our residents have picked up the trash because they don't like seeing it but they're putting themselves In Harm's Way also to get out Park their car and pick up the trash um but I do know that in other cities across the country they have signs up that says don't give money to the panhandlers so I think we can do that I don't know but we can probably I know that some other cities do that so we may not see something yeah they have the signs up but they also have like kiosk up that you can if you want to contribute to the homeless you can put your credit card in or cash card in and contribute and it goes to the Charities that are going to help the people and they encourage you not to give to the to the homeless on the streets at least on Colorado out there yeah and I think Amber you have tried because I've seen some of your reports that to to give um give them resources and I know that the pastors from Prince of Peace have also helped to give them resources and they won't take it 360 they won't take uh the help from 360 as well so please proceed thank you but it just to reinforce the statement um certain authorities will go after a business for committing fraud yeah saying like a fraudulent non-profit for example yeah just to pick one out there's a news right um to donate to something that is not a true non-profit yeah I mean some of their signage says they're homeless yeah there there must be something there and then of course communicating our to our citizens at 90 or not based on a study can help educate the public not to be duped into it not to let their emotions or the sign in the person cause them to pull money out of their pocket to donate to their their income not their homelessness do you criminalize it or do we try to educate the city itself to just well I think it's too full there's a terrification piece the 90 are currently not homeless but I hear that part of it but I'm just saying how do we but I think this is where our attorneys come in we need our attorneys to speak to us about that before soliciting a donation yeah I have no idea how you would do that because I could say something to you and you give me 10 bucks are you going to have the police arrest me because I told you a lie because that's what it would be it would be the same thing yeah yeah I think this is a one-on-one but it is but it's like going on for eight hours right and it's it's a Serial collection of yeah uh of money uh under fraudulent pretenses yeah right well I if I were a betting person I'm going to bet our police want no part of arresting people and questioning them to find out if they're lying or not yeah and that's why I say we need our attorneys to weigh in on this Greg I get what you're saying about fraud I do get that yeah Greg but you have Solutions though I I just uh acknowledged Greg Greg married Council council member Healey absolutely it's a question we can ask the City attorney to do that and follow up with the council uh you know I'm hearing the question certainly councilmember Schultz that you're that you're providing too I I would I would say that from my perspective I try not to speak for Tanya but uh I I do think that that puts our officers in in a difficult position to councilmember Schultz's point but nevertheless a question worth uh worth exploring a bit more I also want to say that um although we've talked we've talked with you about some of our educational initiatives along the way the past couple of months in particular we were staff was really viewing this is is the first public opportunity for the council to kind of talk about what we're what we know today um uh the issue at hand and I didn't want to get ahead of of any of you in terms of Staff Direction on additional communication with the community or engagement with the community until I had a good idea where the council was from a from a policy perspective on this so as much as we're we're trying to inform you tonight I also wanted to kind of get a litmus test for where the council is at and then we'll we'll get back to working on uh what what we think are are some options and ideas for Community communication to your point councilmember Keely because I do think education is an important component here I think around the table the directors and staff would agree with that yeah and I think we can talk to our attorneys and they can guide us into what is doable from a policy perspective just a follow-up think of it differently let's assume that they are allowed to do what they're doing then they're conducting business in the city don't we require a license or a Peddler's license for them to conduct business so if whether if if they're not using a sign that is fraudulently inducing people to give them money for I'm homeless if they're using somewhere they're like I need help or I want help or do can you give something to me they're conducting a business yes in the city thus would require which we wouldn't offer a Peddler's license for doing what they're doing so I don't know I'm just trying to think differently I'm approaching it differently than than just the emotional reaction of the city is frustrated residents are very frustrated they've made it very clear to me over the last several months that they're sick and tired of seeing these Peddlers out on our streets they think it's a major safety concern they don't like the trash yeah and they they don't like how it reflects on our city yeah and I and we've all gotten that so I think it is and I agree with you because I had asked can we uh constitutionally can we you know they need a permit so I think our attorneys need to uh weigh in on that as well well no the part of the intention mayor and Council of this conversation was to was to address the the pure fact that we do from a staff perspective from an operations perspective in PD have a real concern about uh about pedestrians in the roadway and traffic safety uh and that's something that I have uh told Tanya that I absolutely support us not only educating the community but educating folks out that are uh in the roadway in particular and the the motoring public about about the issues that we see related to that behavior although on how it reflects on Burnsville from what I'm hearing it reflects really well on Burnsville and and our residents so I mean if if you're looking for the bright spots I mean that's that's a huge one we're generous right now yeah yeah that are that our residents are caring and you know they they feel very compassionate towards people and they are willing to directly directly help someone that they see or perceive to be in need so well I mean that that does reflect but really well on our residence I think we've heard from people who don't live here but do business in Burnsville from from Jordan and and cities south and they don't like coming up here and uh having to be bombarded with with people um in the medians asking for money and they don't like that so but I'm going to go back to Amber so she can finish her report and we had no idea you opened that candle well I think she has an options there's a lot of comments and questions usually when it comes to just the topic of homelessness and housing um but I love your guys's discussion really because this is what we talk about is we have this homeless issue a significant one or we thought it was a homeless issue this is actually not but it it is a related issue but how do we solve it and this is why I'm here tonight because I'm super passionate about education and this is where we start with the with our leadership and I think the way to start changing this panhandling in Burnsville is by educating and bringing the community together I think of the Burnsville Community had the right information on safety how the money is um actually being how much money and how it's being used and how to give more effectively to actually help the unsheltered we could make a really big difference um in Burnsville so that's why I'm here safety issues was my next bullet um we do note safety issues all around my Outreach team has experienced them we notice the safety issues of the folks in standing out there with signs asking for money the drivers and then my staff has experienced it as well um it's it's the the safety issues of the roadway but then also safety issues of approaching these folks many times they're very aggressive and the public too should should be mindful of that and know that just approaching these folks is not always safe um and then this brings me to the Community Education effective ways to actually support those that are in need and I I want to stress that um even though a lot of the folks out there may not be homeless it doesn't mean they aren't in need of something a greater income more services better housing and improved lifestyle but there are more effective ways to do that and um these are the ways that I would identify as low barrier I am a huge supporter of low barrier help uh not a lot of red tape let's just simply see the human and help them um so Faith communities are great at that Burnsville particularly has wonderful Faith communities that are really low barrier and helping those in need another big one which we talked about is 360s my favorite great organization um low barrier uh the link serves the youth neighbors Inc which is a little ways away another one of my favorites to donate to um and then items though for Street Outreach we love love love gift cards for Street Outreach like gas cards for folks that are outside it provides food a place to be warm in the winter gas to to be warm in the winter cool in the summer so those are super effective ways instead of handing the money I really like that kiosk thing too I heard a church has one um that and I think it goes directly to an organization and those can be really effective as long as it's easily accessible and low barrier no um that that was it trying to keep it short thank you Cara Okay so they may not be homeless but you say they may have needs so in speaking with them what are those needs and why are they panhandling I would say um it varies so greatly person to person um there often is um uh chemical health use so an immediate need would be to meet that need of drug or alcohol addiction um another need might be getting somewhere so some sort of Transportation I need money to pay somebody to drive me somewhere get a bus card that's that's realistic that may happen um put gas in my car um sometimes folks right around Christmas time there will be a lot of people looking for extra money for gifts for their kids brings me back to again let's let's make it easily except accessible for folks to get um donated gifts some of the programs out there are not easily accessible there's a lot of red tape I've been doing this many years and I've seen a lot of families not be able to provide gifts to their kids and um so they will Panhandle there's so many so there are some of those needs so those I mean those do sound like legitimate needs so it it does not sound like these are people who are well off and they're just raking in more money mm-hmm there's there are some I wouldn't say yeah a lot of them are well off there are um I I don't want to identify be identifying particular individuals but there are some people that um are well off and they the primary um job is panhandling yes just follow up that that was good information about the uses do you have any sense of what percentage of the panhandlers based on the ones that you've interviewed would you say is the the drug and alcohol need versus the other less you know more like kids toys or Transportation you know more everyday needs versus addictions I'd go with about 70 to 90 percent addiction drug and alcohol which is why you see a fair percentage of people who are unsheltered I mean it's it's the same thing it's our getting help when people are ready to get help for chemical addiction again it's not easy and it's not quick um the system you know it just works it doesn't work quickly um so we see that Amber Chief Captain thank you so much for the partnership because I do know that um because I had Direct contact with some people who were in a Target parking lot uh and that wasn't safe for them and they had a sign that says we have four children and we need uh money for rent so I went up to them and I said we have services for that in Dakota County and so I had my contact information but they wouldn't take it so I said you want assistance for your rent and this is how you can get it no no no no no no so you're not interested in getting help so I left but I said I had written down the information from my contact gave it to them and I said Dakota County has the resources that would help you with Brent and I also said and here's 360 because they can help you with rent because we donate the Lions Club donate to help with all of those efforts at 360. so there's a lot of organizations that are willing to help people who need help in Burnsville our faith community our non-profits Dakota County that partnership and I I I thank you all for that partnership and the work that we're doing together uh because it's tough work uh out there and I know uh because I've stopped and tried to help but um I just wanna are you aware of any low barrier shelter opportunities that are available in Dakota County it would the lowest barrier shelter would probably be the one that Ally operates it is right now emergency Hotel shelter we have 35 bags um turns over pretty quickly have a wait list but it's probably the lowest barrier the requirements are you do have to be Outsider we call a HUD homeless which means outside in a car in Dakota County verifiably which is usually by our team um and um connect with our our I mean be able to follow Hotel rules shelters so that's it's that's the low barrier I think as it gets but it's not walk-in you know as that prints a piece earlier this week or last week for the presentation from the county and it's a it's impressive of how many people you you guys are actually dealing with annually in Dakota County far more than a lot of people realizing yes yes yeah but thank you for the work that you're doing Amber you and your organization really appreciate it and thank you for being a partner thank you we're doing here in Burnsville thank you for having me yeah thank you Chief thank you Captain okay all right the next item on the agenda is uh phase three facilities pre-design project update Garrett back our Recreation facilities director is going to introduce our our team and have some overview remarks did you have anything that you wanted to add to this or I don't Garrett has it well under control okay very good Garrett floor is yours flap on yeah I've got the new technology yeah that's when I installed that before I'm sorry must have been Tom yes I don't but I will okay yeah you're gonna drive you've got the I don't drive for a little bit and then we will share because we're a team here we go uh good evening Madam mayor members of the council uh as mentioned we are going to talk about our next step in the phase three facility project uh just real quickly when I cover just a brief history uh the history of our facilities is long I'm not going to go through that just where we've been recently talk about our guiding principles which we use to help lead us in any of the projects that we do what that process looks like for facilities as you mentioned we'll get a chance to meet our consultant team and uh and then really talk about what is pre-design it's it's part of a normal process but it's usually not called out specifically and I'm excited that we are actually going through that process based on where we were before and then just a little bit about the funding process and whatnot so again real quickly earlier this year we went through a space study process of four of our facilities of City Hall police Fire Station 2 in our maintenance facility what we learned in that space study is that there's definitely a need for space improvements for our facilities and the space study only took us so far there are these facilities are 25 to 30 years old and there are challenges within them there are challenges with our sites and at the same time we heard that evening that as we continue to advance along in this process we're looking for solutions that solve for the next 20 to 30 years and a space study really didn't allow us to tackle that it just really was about yeah there there are some needs there are some shortcomings and it validated some of the things that we were thinking but it really didn't provide us with the solutions and the information for staff to be able to make recommendations for Council to be able to make good decisions going forward so fortunately that night uh council's Direction was yes staff please engage in a pre-design process and also begin to explore land options for fire station too so to that as I mentioned our guiding principles are at the harder than soul of of the things that we do it really helps us to as we're looking at questions and challenges and as things come up as a team we're able to reflect back to the guiding principles and make sure the solutions that we're looking at fit within those and also it does set a nice framework for how we present information going forward for each process so again if you followed our facilities story over the years you have seen these but welcoming to the community clear communication effective and efficient functional and flexible sustainable healthy safe and fiscally responsible so as we're looking at these different buildings some things like welcoming to the community may look different from a city hall police uh perspective than a maintenance facility or a second fire station and whatnot so it's not Universal across all of them but they all do have their importance within each project that we're taking a look at obviously we want to clearly communicate that's going to be consistent across everything that we do and then as I mentioned the functional and flexible really trying to make sure that when we're looking at Solutions and options how do we balance that functional and flexible to service for the next 20 to 30 years and also be fiscally responsible for for now too right so there's lots of things that play off of each other but we can always come back to these to make sure that we're doing well so our process I've had the privilege to to be going having gone through two of these with police and and fire station these are really best practices uh we start with that space study to kind of understand what our needs are um from there we uh in even earlier than that we we identify our partners and our project team both with our staff within the organization that are directly connected to these facilities and then our our outside partners that come beside us and help us to do projects well um the pre-designed piece is step three and that really is a part of a schematic design process and that's really where we are now um so we're going to kind of help try to figure out some of the answers that the space study left unanswered and try to get some more information come late January on what what we're really dealing with to the best of our ability if there is direction to move forward on a project then you really get the full-blown schematic type situation where things start to come to life on paper and then we start to move into that design and construction document which allows us to go out to bid and ultimately begin a construction project so again that's just really a standard process for any facility project that our organization or others would do with that I am excited to introduce some folks who probably look familiar to our community and to the council here cnh Architects specifically Quinn and Brooke were part of a very successful fire station number one project that we are just coming off of that span between 2019 and 2022 and we're excited to have them on our team to do this pre-design so with that I'm going to pass the mouse over to Quinn yeah and let him take it and welcome Quinn and Brooke it's good to see you both again and thank you for helping us out with this project that we're moving towards very excited Premiere Thompson so most of you you know know a bit about us along with us in the past but to you for the others listening a little bit about cnh Architects uh we're a long established firm in the South Metro we have our offices just next door in Apple Valley serving over 50 years um and but at the same time we have a long-term relationship with Burnsville and look forward to that as well we work a lot in this public Marketplace in Municipal design whether it be other City Halls we've done community centers police maintenance facilities Park related things and of course fire so with that just I'll mention that Brooke and I will generally both be at meetings and presentations we very much collaborate in our design and process so we will be doing that in our presentations as well and this right uh well we are very excited to continue working with the city not only Quinn and I but our entire team and as both Quinn and and Garrett mentioned uh we have a good history of successful projects with the city with the fire station one completing um also the Abel burn facility that was a few years ago as well as the recently completed Fire Station 2 study so uh so to just talk a little bit about the study process and the info Gathering that we'll be doing our first step is to understand that previous study that was done so we're working with City staff to really understand the program all the concept designs that were done so that we can take that information and move forward uh we'll also do an in-depth review of the existing facilities so we'll be gathering uh lots of we'll review all the previously gathered information we'll tour existing facilities making sure that we're listening to City staff on what the needs are and in addition to not only the existing facilities but we'll go and tour Municipal facilities at other cities as well to get feedback and what people like and don't like it about those and then we'll also be analyzing site constraints this is new to the project that didn't happen on the last study but we'll be doing that through surveys soil borings city ordinances and those will help us determine what the opportunities are on site as well as what some of the limitations are and then we'll kind of take all of that information from this early phase and we'll use that to update the the program that has already been started in the previous study and develop goals for the project another big part that we're looking at uh bringing to this part of the study is community engagement I know that the city feels strongly about that we do too we feel it's a very important part of gathering what uh not all stakeholders and when I talk about stakeholders it can be you know Council employ a staff citizens guests to the city they all interface and it's important to you know understand what their perspectives are so with that we've brought members very our overall team that are very experience with the community engagement and come up with some of our first steps we sit down with City staff specifically uh in that realm and develop a work plan of different ways using their experience and the city's goals to really reach out and and make that connection uh you know with those different options I want to point out that this will be a wide variety of methods we're not just looking at online or in-person surveys or or that we're really looking at lots of different ways to connect with the community and the stakeholders in general and so that'll be parts of of how to make that connection and also important will be to reaching out in different ways so that we're connecting with different types of stakeholders and citizens so we're we're really getting that broad ex uh expanse of that experience and interest is you know within that opportunity to engage on this project so you know with that that'll be something that we'll be starting right away and we'll continue throughout the process there's no necessarily you know stop and and start the idea is to really continue that first in getting feedback on what the goals might be what their current experiences are things like that and then moving through that engaging them on um you know where the city is going in the process and decisions that are being made so that we can communicate that with the city as uh the citizens as well foreign after the initial part that Brooke mentions it has been complete we will work into actually doing designs and looking at how can the information we've gathered uh as a whole team it's very important each member of the uh you know the staff as well as each member of our Design Team all integrate into you know coming up with ideas of things to explore so we'll explore many different ways to try to meet the the needs the goals of each of the facilities you know whether it's public works at the maintenance facility police or city hall of course all those elements need to you know we'll work into that and we're we're really looking forward to kind of gathering some of that additional information that we talked about earlier on and and reach out broadly in different ways of considering how the the sites in each case can play into opportunity yes there are constraints but that that also means that there's ways that we can look at and and develop uh approaches that haven't been looked at yet and to really try to maximize the opportunity for um you know the buildings on these sites um we'll come up with a bunch of varieties that get feedback and and keep refining those through the process working our way down you know from large to fewer and then as we do that uh with additional feedback we will also um include 3D imaging as part of that process so that key parts of the different concepts can be looked at so we're not just looking at diagrams or floor plans we really want to see how does the um facilities that we're looking at and how does those remodels and additions play in a welcoming aesthetic and flow in all those elements so we'll look at key elements of that in 3D and then as we narrow down and really focus on some recommendations and approach we will develop cross estimates along with the construction manager cross Anderson that the city has selected and you know provide that additional information as we kind of wrap up the study and finally we'll be presenting that to the broad members of stakehold is certainly starting at Council but with that I'm going to hand it back to Garrett unless you have any questions along the way thanks Gwen um you know as part of our guiding principles the fiscally responsible pieces there and and one of the questions we always want to know is is you know what is the solutions to our our needs and what are the costs right and um I know having been through a couple space studies and then a couple projects after that the the estimates at the time of the space study are really just a reflection of the estimates at the time of the space study and you really need to again our space study didn't identify solutions to all of our needs so being able to go through this step allows us to continue to advance down the project line and continue to get good information so that when we if we do get to a point where we are going to order a project we have the most and the best information available at the time right there are things out of our control currently going on um like Bond rates or the construction Market or Supply chains and all those kinds of things if there is a project ordered at some point are going to impact what the final cost of these projects are we did a fire station and it turned out we nailed that one of the best times we could have done it right and nothing magic of about how we got to that point but that's what we got to and it turned out to be a great situation for the city when it was all said and done so some of these things we can control some we can't what we do know is we're going to be working with our finance team with ehlers on a parallel course as Quinn and Kraus Anderson and our core team are working together finance and Ellers are going to be working on looking at what are our funding options we know some of the things as we've seen on the screen of what our current capabilities are for some of the debt service and yet there are some things that we don't know that we're going to be trying to find answers to as far as you know what our our Market cities doing with franchise fees and what are some creative options for funding with property tax franchise fee options and combinations of those things not necessarily just to come up with an answer for right now but to also be able to look at a long-term plan for that so all this takes time we did float some numbers during the the space study and you heard me say that let's not get fixed on those because we again it's a snapshot at that time we don't know we don't know and come the end of January we're going to have a different picture with more answers from cnh and our team and we'll have a chance to look at what does that all mean at that time what the first project were and then did some more work and came back and there was an increase that we needed to address and amend so we understand all of that this is not the first time that we're going through this and we understand that there are moving Parts all the time and there are many factors so but thank you for the update any questions from anybody I like the fact that we are using the best practice in how we got to a successful uh fire station one we want to do the same thing when we go through these next projects learn from some of the things that we did with police eliminate some of those challenges and move towards the best practice any other thoughts comments okay thank you so much Gwen and Brooke it's good to see you good to see you you know we're with a winning team last time I'm expecting the same perfect wonderful yeah I will add the queen of Records yes Quinn and Brooke have been great Partners uh mayor council and I'm very excited to continue to work with them uh and appreciate your affirmation of our guiding principles and our our process and as we've talked about we are committed to getting you the right information at the right time as we talk about the future of any particular project that you might decide to order or not well one one of the things is that um we have a good team we have a fine uh we have you folks um and we also have Kraus Anderson who is part of that team and we have ehlers so we've got a team together what I do like is that you're continuing with the community engagement because fire station one I did not hear one objection because of the community engagement process that brought people to the table and so thank you thank you okay thank you for coming in um members of our uh Community we are going to take a break uh and that might be 20 to 20 minutes somewhere in the neighborhood yeah or somewhere around there so we'll we're going to take a break uh at this time and then we will reconvene in about 20 minutes thank you foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign foreign we're now reconvening our Burnsville city council work session uh the next item on our agenda is drinking water taste odor survey results and potential next steps uh Carissa Larson our Communications and Community engagement director is presenting along with William Saint amor of cobalt community research and Ryan Peterson Public Works director I'm actually going to turn over to Ryan first oh okay Ryan the floor is yours yeah so this is about our safe drinking water or it's it's about our taste and Order concerns that we've had that we've seen in our last couple surveys I'm not going to get into a lot of that as that Chris uh we'll do that and I would just be redundant to what she's saying but I'm going to focus on uh what our our water our drinking water is safe our history of our surface water plant Edition which is causing some of our problems uh some of the things that we're currently doing Chris and the Consultants will work on the survey and then I'll be back for a recommended Next Step but I just want to say right off the bat that the drinking water here is safe the Department of Health reviews us this is nothing to do about um is this is the water safe to drink it is safe to drink I'm confident the water in here is right out of burnsville's tap I drink it all the time so that's not what we're focusing on but just because it's safe doesn't mean that everyone enjoys it so we've we've heard some concerns and we're going to go through those tonight and uh let's go to the next slide so some of the challenges of of the drinking water Jason order came about almost certainly associated with the surface water plant so that was a collaborative effort in 2009 it was built between the city of Burnsville the city of savage Kramer Mining and materials and the Minnesota state of Minnesota yep Department of Natural Resources so those four entities came together because they all saw the sustainability benefits of this we used to our Kramer mining used to pump excess water they still pump excess water into the river but we reduced that by taking some of it and turning into drinking water by treating it as surface water so instead of having 2.5 million gallons of water pumped into the river we're now using that as a drinking water source that has resulted in our aquifers being recharged in the area almost if you go look at the different Maps around the the Metro country Etc aquifer levels so that's the the groundwater levels have almost always are on the decline because humans are using more and more water because of this plant we were able to see an increase in our aquifer level making our our water supply more sustainable and more dependable and less at risk of of groundwater depletion of the aquifer and it truly has worked it also is really helpful to our number one customer the city of savage they buy about a million dollars of water from us a year and um they are now able to supply more of their residence water without having to increase the amount of water that they're pumping so it's it really did work out well for the the users which has resulted in some environmental things such as fans to continue to be successful with that uh the challenge we've seen with it is taste and odor um just a couple of the things that causes this is now we're mixing two water sources so we have groundwater which still provides a bulk of the lot of the drinking water and the surface water source there's two different process businesses we've produced the water and then combine it into one product that goes out into the system so that's the bulk of the presentation uh Carissa she's walking back to get the clicker to move to the next slide oh we got it for you Ryan oh thank you Lord Bethany can do it uh she's good at that and so then um what are we doing now to help the situation we have staff monitoring at our surface water site so we do go out there test for uh different Organics that may be in there um so we're evaluating what's happening we're also at the treatment plan itself um literally smelling the water tasting the water observing different tests and sensors and that kind of thing we're currently treating for iron and manganese removal which is why someone might have a metallic taste with a chemical called permanganate we are removing Lusty and earthy smells and tastes with two versions of activated carbon we're always monitoring our chlorination levels one big challenge with that is you have to have enough chlorine to get to the fire into Savage and then if you're a customer that's a quarter mile away you end up having perhaps more chlorine than you like there just so it can last all the way to the end so that's a lot of the things that we're doing now um and then we will move into Carissa's portion of the presentation thank you Ryan um Madame mayor members of the council as you remember we did our resident and business surveys in 2021 that's our scientific sample surveys that we conduct every four years at that time we looked for a new vendor and a new way to do those surveys we hired Cobalt community research based on their expertise in working with government agencies schools non-profits so when those scores came back and we noted some lower scores regarding the drinking water we asked Cobalt to come back and help us to create a survey specifically around questions that may help us dive deeper into what what could be happening with resident experiences with their drinking water um so as Ryan mentioned this is this is really about experience this is about taste smell whether folks use it for cooking bathing drinking it was it was to hone in on how do people use their water and how do they feel about their water so William um Saint more from he's the executive director of cobalt community research he's here tonight via Zoom and he will walk through some of the highlights of the uh the survey results that we found as a quick reminder you may remember from our community survey results that some of our numbers here are presented as percentages of respondents some of them are presented as ratings or scores it kind of depended on how the wording how the question was worded what it was that we were we're after so you'll see those on the slides William will talk about it a little bit and then I handed out a couple of pieces of paper to you you've got um the presentation that you're about to see you have the survey instrument itself so you can see what questions folks were asked um you can and then there's a packet of cross tabs in case you'd like to look a little bit deeper into some of the demographics and we asked two open-ended questions so I've provided you with those responses I know that William will do a much more eloquent job of saying this than I will but uh you know the open-ended comments are are great and they're very insightful but they're not the data but they're it's very easy to um focus on them because they they tell their own story but they're they're not always reflective of what the data really tells us so um so I'd ask that you look at the data tonight and dive into the comments a little bit later with that I'll turn it over to William thank you very much good evening everyone uh just to give you a background for those of you who are familiar can you hear me you'll see they can hear them no I think it's us no I think it's us we want to hear you William I hope you can hear us I can hear you great can you hear me yet should have one but it doesn't know University yeah okay next door neighbor Doug drinks only bottled water did you worry about our water and he's worried about that while I'm just next to the airport are they working they are working on it yeah if I could just fake it this way talk there's somebody sounds okay you want to try William sure can you hear me now oh yeah I can hear you yes great awesome you got it so for those of you who don't remember Cobalt we're a 501 and C3 not for profit we work across the country we're based over here in just a across the uh the lake here in Michigan um and as Krista said we work with a lot of communities across the U.S on a number of different projects and we often ask about water that's part of our standard benchmarking and so when we're looking at this last year uh we saw that drinking water did become a concern for your residents and we looked at some of the different benchmarks and we saw your score over here in blue up our right hand side compared to the benchmarks and while your utility services in general had very strong scores this one in particular was significantly below the others and it was pretty uh it had a much stronger correlation with overall satisfaction so the form of a driver and so we dove in more deeply to get a sense of what was going on with those perceptions and those experiences to provide a little bit more information so the bottom line is that a lot of your residents don't like to drink City water so only 72 percent drink it overall and only uh 66 percent who live in multi-unit uh communities multi-unit buildings uh drink it taste and mineral residue are the things that folks said particularly stood out when they were talking about their experience when looking at drinking specifically taste and smell are the biggest drivers when we actually correlated that out with overall satisfaction with water um there is a lot of concern regarding the metallic taste uh and there's also concern about the earthy fishy characteristics so we saw that in the data we also saw that in the comments um interestingly about 56 of your residents are willing to pay more uh to have the water uh bumped up in terms of the quality only 17 percent are not willing to pay more so there is some interest and as we go into this you'll see folks are using water softeners and filters and those kinds of things and using a lot of bottled water so there can be some some coughed up cost offsets for residents as well so let's talk a little bit about the methodology so we sent a survey out with water bills back from April through June there was an insert and it also went electronically to your folks who managed their bills electronically so we heard back from over 11 00 people which is fantastic from a response standpoint that gives you plus or minus 2.8 percent and for your margin of error there were 712 residents Who provided account numbers which allowed us to take all of their responses and plot them geographically we added some Jitters but you can see exactly who that person was but we did plot it across the map of the city so you can see are there some correlations in terms of the experiences and the satisfactions of where they are in the city specific um a lot of the details are visible available in the crosstabs I know City staff have been looking at these with great interest with great attention to try to figure out okay what exactly is going on um one other thing that I just wanted to highlight from a methodology standpoint is I've used a sixth scale instead of the 10 point scale that we used back in 2001 through 2021 and the reason for that is that with this kind of survey we did we could use a simpler scale because we were using a different kind of math but how you did we're not looking at these kind of results you know over an extended period of time to do the comparison so it allows us to have a little bit of a simpler instrument all right let's dive into the results so looking at how do you use City Water you can see as a percentage of the respondents what the most common uses are so bathing and washing clothes are the biggest you can see the drinking water is only about the 72 percent the next slide when we look at ratings of the city water depending on how they use it this is on a scale of one to six you can see that drinking water was just a little bit below a 2.5 so clearly statistically there are concerns that residents have regarding the water next slide we want to take this data and look at it geographically so this is just giving you a quick little snapshot of what the mapping looks like and you can see the drinking water the red being low scores and blue being higher scores probably a little hard to see on your screen but you can see red you know it's a lot the drinking water is a lot redder than the other areas um but we really don't have a strong geographical concentration of where those lower scores are which was something was we're hoping to find smoking guns like ah it's in the specific area but that did not come out but we do know that it's a general kind of issue that residents are having next slide so we asked them what kind of water treatments they use in their home you can see as a percentage that a majority of folks use either a water softener or a water filter only about six percent don't use either of those so there is a lot of that conditioning going on once they get it to their side of the wall next slide please we looked at drinking water and our bottled water and how that's used you can see about 60 do use bottled water so a pretty high percentage some of them use it for cooking as well but not nearly as high of a percentage next slide please so we asked them what is about the drinking water read the different characteristics of your drinking water so you can better understand what it is affect the dislike or we're like and you can see the taste of the water came out as the lowest score just a little bit above the 2.5 um The Clarity of the water you know had a much higher score but the tastes and then the smell were a couple of issues uh the free of mineral residue also was a bit of a lower score as well so none of them really said that your water is fantastic for any of these different dimensions um but the clarity was the high school next slide looking again at the distribution of concerns so this is again ranking where poor is read and excellent is blue looking at these different dimensions of smell taste Clarity and mineral residue you can see again the distribution is pretty even across the entire city so it is a general kind of concern next slide please so we wanted to get a sense of what is the issue that is the biggest concern to Residents and so what we did is we took those different dimensions and we did a correlation with the satisfaction of drinking the cooking the bathing and the washing and what we saw is that the low scores were for drinking and the biggest issue folks had was the taste so the the lower they rated The Taste the less happy they were with the drinking essentially to a greater degree than the clarity or the free of the mineral issue smell of water was a close second but number one was the taste next slide and again looking at these characteristics in terms of yes is the yellow where they have an earthy concern uh no is the green where they don't again yes no one's metallic with chlorine and you can see again there's not a strong Geographic geographically isolated area where they're having these concerns it is something that's more generalized next slide and when we do a grid of this just to put them side by side if you can see that for the drinking water the metallic is the thing that came out the most and one of the challenges is that we don't really have you know the Smoking Gun so these percentages are all pretty close the metallic is the 30 percent is statistically significant so it's more than your margin of error of these other two areas but again they're fairly close back slide we wanted to give residents an opportunity to say in their own words what kind of challenges they have with the water this is one of those open-ended comments that Chris had mentioned and this is where I want to put a caveat on this is you go through and you look at these comments keep in mind that uh the comments are really designed to help us understand the data better they don't replace the data and the way that we're wired is this we're reading through comments if you see the same comment popping up four or five times then it really starts to stick in your brain but keep in mind that's four or five comments out of the you know almost 1200 people that responded so it's great for helping you to understand the results but make sure that you're not um using just the comments to draw your conclusions so we did some of these word clouds and the words that come up the most often are the largest ones in the cloud and then we go through the comments and we look to see what are the themes that are wrapped around each of these words so you can see the word filter up there at the top and essentially the comments are that residents they feel like they need to filter their water so they're not comfortable drinking it straight from the tap the word taste the residence mainly complaining about the moldy taste there were some talking about the chlorine or metal taste but most of the cabinets were around the the pond flavor and that smell again is that moldy fishy smell in the city water that people mentioned the most next slide please foreign here's the question where we asked if they would be willing to fund some of these improvements and you can see how much people are willing to spend on a monthly basis if the city is able to correct these issues from two dollars a month to five dollars a month to ten dollars a month or no they don't they don't support any uh additional payment at all so essentially if you're to take these three bars on the right and stack them together that tells you that essentially around 60 percent of your residents are willing to pay you know some amount in addition per month to have this particular concern resolved next slide again we have an open-ended so just another opportunity for them to share with the city what they would like you to know from a drinking water perspective you can see the word pay being very large this is where the comments are a little bit different from the staff we saw that 56 are willing to pay something but there are a number of folks in the comments saying no we don't want to pay for drinkable water we're already paying for it we want to make sure that that you're you're giving us drinkable water for what we're already paying um the word improved so again residents want to see improvements the quality of the drinkable water and safe people want to make sure that the water is also safe we know that it is safe from an analysis standpoint but from a concern standpoint from the perceptions that's something to work out a bit more next slide please and I believe that's the end of my pieces and Kristen do you want to hold off on questions or take them now until we get to the rest of the the conversation I think if we hold off for just one second Ryan's going to do this this slide and then I think we can open it up okay um yeah yeah so uh thank you William excellent job presenting the the facts we will be working on processes and uh to get communication on our water treatment process out to the community um I can say you know we're in public works and the water department we are not satisfied with these results we we love the fact that we're sustainable as we can be but we do want our residents to love to drink our water as well so um you know there are 1200 people saying that there's a challenge here we aren't hiding from it or anything like that we want to do something to make it better so that everyone no you know it can be safe and you can like to drink the water while retaining all the sustainability benefits that we talked about our recommendation to do that would be to um order a comprehensive drinking water taste an older study we do need some professional help to go through some of the things that could help us determine what it is you heard William say on a number of occasions we were hoping there was a Smoking Gun we were hoping it would be a geographic thing okay all the Reds happening in this area something's going on there or the one slide that was the most challenging for us to figure it out was the one where thirty percent of the residents felt it was a metallic taste problem 27 percent felt it was a organic or musty pondy smell and 26 percent said it was chlorine each one of those things has an incredibly different type of process to fix the problem so we don't the the survey is awesome it tells us we have a challenge but it does does not get us to the point of saying here's what your challenge is go fix it provide us some options so that's why we're recommending uh that we go about this we review the history of the the plant and everything that's occurred and everything that we've done to date we would be uh and very intentional about reaching out to Residents that there are quite a number who said they were willing to be reached out to so we'd bring them out perhaps we go to their house taste their water bring them in to taste it right at the plant do all these different things to try and maybe they thought it was metallic because it was a choice but really when they got into it it was the the musty pondy thing that was the problem we just don't know uh there are ways to evaluate our processes right now we're doing treatment to be as efficient as possible which results in a different percentage of surface water versus groundwater that we're putting out into the system maybe there's a way to do it differently that could end up with a more homogeneous product all all year round we could do some more testing of our water supplies from a taste and Order perspective and then once hopefully we could dial into something and then the study would also then allow us to um up start opening up some recommendations be it operational be it maybe this chemical would help you perhaps it's a a new feature for treatment at the plant that would be recommended to solve the problem something like this we could do our concerned that we would utilize um said this would be approximately a 60 65 000 study this wouldn't affect your um uh tax rate at all this would be out of the sewer and water fund so our recommendation is to add this to the CIP for 2023 and you know it will have just an extremely small modification to the um to the water and sewer rates that would be our recommendation so that is the last slide um so to William and you and Carissa did we ask them which water that they've tasted around the metro area that they thought was really good drinking water we did not ask them that metamere well I have asked some people who told me that they didn't and they came from Minneapolis and they say oh Minneapolis water is really good and I said well they have surface water and that's what we have I don't know if they have any groundwater that they mix with the surface water if everything comes out of the Mississippi for Minneapolis basically old Mississippi yep so I'm thinking so if that's the case maybe we can find out what's in their water that is lacking in our water well they have uh the first time we talked about this rainy so they have they do something different they soften their water America members of the council let Ryan answer the question but it's kind of an apples to oranges comparison in terms of infrastructure well yeah because ours is a uh it's a it's a blend of ground and surface superintendent here today but it is a Apple Store oranges is correct it is um much larger much more sophisticated operation uh and a much uh they are able to do a lot more with the huge Revenue yes uh Tony white our utility superintendent is here tonight and perhaps he could just talk to the question welcome to the table Tony thank you uh yeah just real quick Minneapolis gives us lime softening it's a very intensive process with Labor Staffing footprint type of treatment they also have ground correct so that's so that in itself is an A factor that we have that they don't have correct um and then they also utilize ultrafiltration as well which reduces the particles that's in the water that makes it out into the system that's kind of the big difference in the type of treatment we have compared to the type of treatment that they are running yeah so Pepsi uses of reverse osmosis everything that they do is I mean their product is water and sugar and so they have to have very and I've gone through their plant with the new uh reverse osmosis um plant that they have it's really high tech correct reverse osmosis is probably one of the most extensive types of treatments as far as removing stuff out of the water yeah um the problem with reverse osmosis is it is getting rid of the brine the solution that you're left over with of all the stuff you took out of the water it's hard to get rid of yeah and so like I said those would be treatment options on the back side of a study of um what residents are seeing yeah for for anyone who's wondering uh Pepsi does not purchase the water from us it goes down to the groundwater themselves they drill right down to the aquifer so they're using the same uh aquifer the Jordan and uh but they use reverse osmosis and yes the brine but Pepsi this is their product water and sugar is the product that they have yeah you didn't ask this but there is we there's not enough quantity of water for us to take all surface water no we it has to be a mix it's just an augmenting of our total so we couldn't do the Minneapolis system and take all surface water AR plant doesn't set up for that level and be I don't think the amount of water that we need is available that route so well and the thing is prior to 2009 we used all groundwater some folks wrote about Edina um our water before the treatment plant expansion was was the Rave it was phenomenal drinking water and didn't have these things so it's it's the introduction of the surface water that's caused the problem uh I'm curious what sort of filtration we would need to do to to get outside of the sediment and maybe filter out some of this chlorine and this chrome and this swampy smell is it is it can it be done without trying to soften that you know mentioned that they use a line process to soften water if we chose not to soften but just filter it to get out all these other uh impurities is is there a path to filtration for us well softening is adding things to the water it's not re it's not reducing yeah I don't we haven't talked about it but I don't necessarily think we're interested in trying to soften the water we're just trying to get all the crud out of the water and some of the smell and there's some people that wrote in their comments that they put in a heavy duty filtration system it's not adding anything it's simply multiple filters to get all the stuff out and they say when they clean their filters out it's there's rust and and calcium and all this you know sediment that you see in the bottom of your glass if you put a tap our tap water in a glass and let it sit long enough you'll see it all sitting at the bottom of the glass right so in their case they filter all that and everything other things out like the chlorine comes out and they say their water tastes phenomenal and all they're doing is just filtering our water yeah I mean I guess so to answer your question yes there is a way to to put together some sort of ultra filtration system for the surface water system it obviously would be building a a new treatment facility type site again I know the the it would be require additional employees as well the process is very finicky and it does I know that I have heard from operators in Minneapolis outside the their ultra filtration is it is difficult to keep it operating properly because you're filtering such I don't know such a fine level if those filters break then the stuff just gets right through it right through the filter so okay there's uh there is other options as well that I'm aware of that instead of trying to absorb the taste and Order molecules like we're currently trying to do there is processes that can destroy the molecules that that people are seeing and tasting which which there are other municipalities that are looking into it it's kind of the newest form of Jason order treatment that they're looking into for ozonation basically is what it is so you use ozone to destroy okay so I think councilmember worked my head oh okay event um Savage gets all their water from us correct yeah about 85 percent is what I'm aware of is this they produce 15 of their own who did we check in with their people are they getting the same type of calls and complaints and Savage we checked in with the person who represents them at us and they've never have never complained as a customer no yeah they are further Downstream you know it takes so it could be that things dissipated as it goes out you store their water in their water towers yeah we Supply them once it gets to the 42 border there it's it's their deal so and they're not we treat their water before it gets to their it's the same Burnsville water yep there is no separate we don't filter it or something at the Savage board or anything like that I will just add that this this survey was for Burnsville residents so your Ryan's answer is you know based on Public Works folks talking to Public Works folks folks but we focused the survey just anecdotally I mean if there was something there I'm sure they would no absolutely they would be complaining yeah I'm gonna be curious to see if we dig into this more if this is something that is more on a house to house level um with the type of piping within the home or or what because to get some of these results they're they're saying you know one day it smells fishy one day it smells metallicky and one day it smells like chlorine I mean that's all over the board yeah right which is our our challenge I was actually councilman were working on I was going to say the same thing before you did I think slide 20 captures the the challenge that we Face uh the best right that really 30 would uh what statistically might be something for us to pay attention to is is really as I understand it's the one area that we feel that we treat for the best right in terms of our our current infrastructure um and the kind of the disparate across chlorine earthy fishy metallic that creates a challenge for us in that from a staff perspective we want you to have this information but our recommendation to do more study on this is is really a reflection of there is no there's no absolute Clarity here in some of the solutions councilmember Keely particularly that you're suggesting or the comparison to Minneapolis would be significant Capital Investments and I don't I don't want to staff doesn't want to jump to the conclusion that we need to we need to put really big scary numbers in front of you in the community to talk about this issue before we we best understand it yeah that's where our recommendations if I may ask how much why water how much water do we treat a year last year we were on Pace or we did about 3.4 billion gallons we're currently on about that same Pace this year yeah and um the overall ratio of 30 of it is probably about 30 percent I would say a surface water the other sixty percent is certain water but you're treating both you when you're when you're combining and mixing you're treating them both before it's distributed out correct yeah yep every day both ground and surface water combined and they're combined and I had a time before going out so for reverse osmosis that is an entirely would that be an entirely different yeah treatment plant or would that be something you do in addition how does that go es it would be an entirely new type of treatment and it's highly expensive just because my so when my son was in Air Force Reserves the Air Force had portable reverse osmosis I don't even know what you would call it but they were they were taking them to other cities in the world large cities to install them and they were doing that as as part of our sofa agreements with various countries and then that was part of their training was to to hook those up and the value of them was they were smaller they were portable and they could be hooked into a water system rather than replacing and retooling um but I don't know if that is kept particular to the military and they have not released how to do that or that type of equipment I would say the restrictions would be as to treat this amount of water in such a large quantity to feed it out and then that adds the other complications I'm getting rid of what's left over where do you send it the waste right and a footprint of trying to add it into what we our current infrastructure that we have it would all play a part on whether there was space for to be able to put enough filters in even to treat that amount of quantity of water got it because these were for cities that are much larger than Burnsville like a considerably larger population obviously I don't know the situation it seems unlikely that they could bring a portable plant in and like that and treat the entire water supply for a large city but that's not a fact that's just speculation on my part okay find out can you put up your slide on next steps from an operational perspective please so from uh staff's perspective what we need to do is to uh to further study and this will come out of our because water is an Enterprise it'll come out of that Enterprise fund and it won't affect uh the levy because it's an Enterprise fund so what you're suggesting is that we move forward with this sixty five thousand dollar study that will give us more information as to what we need to do then yes and we won't move into study water treatment purpose processes until we are able to figure out or at least believe we've figured out are we solving for chlorine are we solving for solvable our hard water are we solving for musty are we solved for metallic so we don't want to figure out what might be the the winning um salt what will solve the process until we know what we're trying to solve for well I think you know uh members of the council I would say that we direct staff to continue with the work that they're doing because when you look at all of the findings of all of the comments everybody has an a different opinion yeah and a lot of it also is probably preference Ryan you and I drink the water and and like it and you know um councilmember Keely says you can fill up your picture or glass of water and leave it there and it'll settle down so I in making coffee I fill my carafe and set it and it's ready so in the morning I just fill it into the water Reservoir and I don't see any of that you don't see it either so you know I go five water bottles at our house every day with tap water and nobody there's no issues yeah I know my house but my next neighbor Doug by his bottle of water yeah and so it's a matter of preference so I think we need to because cilantro yeah exactly cilantro yeah yeah because it smells like yeah yeah people like there are people who like cilantro and the other think it's like soapy water it tastes like soap so yeah so anyway to get it fixed yeah so I don't even see that well that's another part residue uh in my coffee pot and you fill three and you don't see the residue either okay um members of the council uh your direction for step continue with finding out more information with the with a study that digs a little deeper with these um with the metallic the musty and what was the other one chlorine yeah yeah good luck we'll bring it back on our future agenda shortly then if that is the clear Direction yes yeah is that oh yeah we um this is a pretty damning report I think we got a major problem we've known about it for years we just haven't done anything until now yeah I think we need to move forward with taken care of it yeah so Greg it it is unanimous just a quick follow-up question it I'd be curious to know if the Kramer digging deeper has any impact on any of this with their pumps at the Quarry we're hoping that's going to help we're open it's going to help and there's some other process things that may get it you know like I said in the presentation right now the percentage of groundwater and surface water is changing throughout the year maybe a process Improvement is we try to keep it more similar so it's but this is the kind of stuff we got to learn out from a true expert but so there's it may not result in a recommendation for a huge uh investment maybe we'd try something and it's you know to your point that I heard because we don't hear any complaints from Savage but you say that it uh when we distribute the water to Savage then it goes and it sits in their tank before they distribute it to the residents I wonder if there is a holding pattern for us yeah until all of that dissipates before we distribute out I don't know I you know you guys are the experts we're not you're the subject matter experts this is an operational deal and uh I have a quick question I know we've been we have been dealing with this for years ever since we built the surface water plant how many different formulas have we gone through now to try and get that loss Ryan I I don't know if that I can answer the question it's it's a lot of experiment where you know I experimenters yeah and so but I don't know you guys you work with the Consultants who are subject matter experts around here compare the amount of calls that we get from like 2009 it's not close I mean we're probably getting one or two a month but it could be some people are just resigned to it so I'm not discounting the problem yeah and yeah like say some people I can drink it and not taste something but everyone experiences differently so um anybody who goes out to dinner with me or else just going out I always order water thank you right everybody knows what's your beverage water lemon always the martini might be smiling that out you know that alcohol in there yeah I can go with that one yeah yeah okay the Vodka kills the smell so anyway there's a unanimous to move forward we'll put it on there on staff's recommendations a year for more from us okay thank you thank you very much we appreciate your understanding on this okay well the next one is also yours Ryan everything we do is awesome you already said Jeff uh this is the um the hardship on Boulevard mowing yeah I knew this was come back okay Jeff technology okay huh evening Madam mayor members of council I'm here to give you an update on Boulevard mowing uh I guess for the Public's benefit uh we we traditionally mowed uh side and backyard lots of long roadways for a number of years until that was no longer sustainable and then we started mowing the hardship boulevards it's our the boulevards that have uh prevent that barrier that prevents access to easy easy maintenance of the Boulevard and we uh started into the opt-out opt-in up opt-in hardship Boulevard going program uh currently in the hardship Boulevard mowing program there's 174 Parcels that would qualify about one-third opt-in and have us maintain uh the boulevard for them about one-third have uh taken private ownership of the Boulevard and maintained it themselves and currently we're sitting at about one-third that goes unmaintained uh we do have challenges with the program and that's why we're I'm here tonight uh community members are generally dissatisfied uh with the program uh either that it should be just a basic maintenance service well they're all they're all over the board we should be right I guess the number one thing I hear when I take calls is uh that this should be done from the city level uh you shouldn't be putting it on to the individual property owners so uh then the revenue we collect from the opt-in program is hardly covering uh the costs of just administering the program so I got a couple of options that we we'd like to explore in the next mowing season this isn't going to affect anything currently eliminate the hardship more of our Pro mowing program and utilize 25 000 in the in the 2023 budget uh to mold all hardship boulevards getting rid of our original op poor Optics of just mowing the hardship boulevards and not mowing the adjacent Parcels as we travel in between them yeah so this would go the recommendation is go from the nearest Ingress egress Point uh Mo up to the hardship and back uh removing the the original bad Optics that got us here in the in the first place so there isn't another alternative would be basically develop a fee for service program uh onto the utility bill for collecting of our of our that's what we do for snowplowing there's no the sidewalks yes it came back to us to do it but we but we do it we we assess and we do it everybody but everybody pays yes Ryan I'd just like to add that really nobody likes the program yeah that we got now the people who opt in are unhappy they have to pay 125 the ones who aren't in there are are unhappy it's not being done our staff is unhappy they want to do a good job they want to get this done they don't like looking at it I don't know Jeff if you go back to that one with the pictures on there like um the bottom picture you know is what it looks like out there they don't want to maybe that one goal involved the next one's there you can some of the administrative things you can see the pink lines on the curb and sidewalk there that's what we're going out doing trying to tell a seasonal employee Mo here and then the second one you can see where we've Whited it out the next year because they didn't they didn't opt in year two so and just keeping track of all this is Administrative um it's just the program just isn't uh isn't very effective the objects don't look good because we get complaints of people saying they're going right by it and they lit their blade and that's not a good thing about talking about staff they're coming up to it lift their blade and then going on to the next one and they say why can't they mow that on their way to the next one right you know doesn't give you um good news reviews from the citizens and you know that you've seen that in those emails that I get and pass on to you guys so we're recommending I'm scrapping the program and it what's currently in the budget would uh cover the dish the cost that we would need to go mow up to those and back and mow everything in between that's that's what we'd like to do we think we could do the best job that way that's what we're recommending okay Cara uh so I am in favor of eliminating the hardship Boulevard Mooring program um but I also don't see why why our residents are paying for the city to mow only certain people's lawns and a certain portion of their lawn if that's your lawn that's your lawn to take care of and I do understand that it's a hardship but it's a hardship because the homeowner has a fence which was their choice to have a fence without a gate to get out and there are a lot of houses that I see that they have a gate on that back part so they pop it open and they they mow it or you know they're going the long way around but that's that's their property and I do not understand that we are taking money from residents to mow someone else's lawn so I would I would scrap it all together if it's if it's your lawn it's your lawn take care of it well when Mary Sherry was here is when we put in place where we mowed and it had to do on Park Avenue when she would come down to City Hall there was that long line of homes with the fence and they would complain about it because nobody goes around to mow that portion and if we're going to want a vibrant City then we need to make sure that the city is vibrant and oh by the way do you all remember when the council took away 31 000 that we had to spray all of the weeds and the medians and then come close to fire muster in a city looked awful with all of those weeds so I decided to go weeded from five to Parkwood where people were getting off um the freeway to come down that way to get into the parade lineup so and then of course the I had some help from the rotaries who came and helped with the shrub roses because that was really bad but the next year we put the money back in 31 000 this is 25 000 if we want the city to look good maybe we should mow all of everyone's lawn a big homeowners association well everybody I'm in an association so you guys already have people mowing yourself I like having that done and I I pay money because I'm lazy and I don't want to I don't want to do it um right now everybody everybody is doing what they can but the thing is these are some of those properties that they can't get to yeah I kind of like the idea of this just we're there just mow it it's it's so to me it's about making the city look nice and inviting to people not just our residents but future residents and businesses nobody likes to drive through a town and see tall grass shark grass Tall Grass they don't feel like an area is taken care of at all and some people I hear what you're saying here but some people just they're not going to take care of it they're just not going to do it and we don't enforce that because we don't enforce except by complaint in areas like that so we're already there I mean just all the want to be done yeah but are we like are we already there we are already there um in many places yeah we're close by but some it you know we would be going up a further distance in areas so I would say it's somewhere between what the two you're saying yes is sometimes we would be going up and other times I just want to take care of our neighborhoods yeah Dan K you go to your alternative slide because we already have this established with uh sidewalk snow plowing this is what I would do because I think I don't have a problem eliminating the program because it's not a it didn't work out but um I I also don't agree that the city should just be paying for 171 properties to get mode or whatever percentage of those that never did any anything with it and those 171 can be part of the assessed fee and it's all going to get mowed and if a person owns their property and they mow It Anyway then our blades are just going to go over the top of it to the next one and there won't be anything to mow but that'll be up to them but I I just think we already have a model to use let's use it I don't think we should just get free mowing away then it needs to be priced that they are paying what it costs to do it because otherwise we are asking other residents to pay for someone else's lawn to be mowed is the 12 a month the number that that covers is that a cost recovery number per property yeah it's a 25 000 divided by the 175 74. 25 000. you get your yeah your Boulevard mode for 12 bucks a month you get it mode Weekly right then I would I would be fine with that um Ryan just two things to uh consider so that the two-thirds of the folks who didn't opt in or did mow it will now be charged that and that probably I think the only larger thing on your utility bill would be water usage so just so you know you know this is a much larger charge than the sidewalk snow plowing or what have you so is that is that five or six or eight bucks or something like that sidewalk's not buying yeah it's enough for less than that less than five bucks yeah yeah because there's so many Parcels this is a large yeah it's very small the the sidewalk for snow removal it's a very small area because it's all going around schools sure well I think it's more there's many more Parcels who are participating in the program so the costs are split over a much larger paying yeah right pair group how many times do we mow a month those boulevards um we keep it under control is the great num the the policy depends on growth yeah okay so it could be two times in July when it's getting fried could be four times in May when it's getting a lot of rain and a lot of growth yeah that's not a that's a very inexpensive amount to pay to have something done at a large group of people don't want to do I will I haven't chimed in on this yet I like Jeff's presentations it was at three slides I got help cutting it down [Music] Google here's the guy who just jumps on everything I mean everything gets it done yeah um I I want to scrap this because it's just clunky and I think Jeff and our team has much better things to be doing with their time than what they've been doing with this program and we talk about efficiencies and this just doesn't seem efficient at all what we've been doing um I also think about boulevards and that's kind of a gray area to me there is some assumption that there is shared responsibility with the city on boulevards when somebody has a issue with a tree on a Boulevard you know our Forestry Department goes out and takes care of it and as far as I'm concerned I don't think we invoice homeowners for tree work on boulevards um so then again it kind of begs the question is that then what we need to talk about next I had somebody call me last week that had a limb coming off on a Boulevard tree and before she was out there the next day because of Hugo to address it and um I don't think they got an invoice for that um took care of it so I guess I'm I'm kind of in the same school of thought where but you know boulevards are very visible to the public um it's kind of just general maintenance as the city at large I don't think that us mowing these boulevards is is a favor or we're doing I they they're they're still mowing their lawn this this to me just kind of Falls like I said into a gray area of somewhat of a public right-of-way um because it's shares space with the public sidewalk as well but we can't keep doing what we've been doing because after hearing about what we've been doing it's not we can't keep doing it with the spray painting different color marks it's just it's not good government it's we gotta scrap it yeah so you're saying eliminate and until it's just eliminate eliminate it and take care of it in what way so you're not because there's two different methods to take care of it what were we doing before we had this we took care of that just took care of it we took care of it we we mowed people who didn't want to have to bother mowing the wrong one we just did it for them but there's a lot of people who took care of theirs and but we it's just like people who don't take care of their property and then a lot of our if we search why wouldn't we just mow everyone's Boulevard then why would we give certain treatment to some homeowners and not to others because we're talking about ones that are difficult to get to because they have a fence on their own property that they wish to have they probably bought the house so then are we going to go to each homeowner and say put in a gate you just bought this house last year go put in a gate no we don't tell them what to do with their property that's the point because it's their property it's Thursday maintain now if we're going to say well because you have a fence it's difficult for you to get to which it is I get that I get that it's it's not easy to get to it but if we say well if that's what happened we're going to mow this for you but we're not gonna have mow other homeowners boulevards so if we're saying the boulevard is not the homeowner's property and it is a shared piece of property and that's why we're going to maintain it then what is the difference why would we not just mow everybody's why don't we I don't know I'm asking if that's what we want to do I think we're just going after properties where we don't think the homeowner is going to mow it because they'd have to walk the city block around hardship do it it's it's hardship so rather than have that fight with the homeowner of saying get out and mow your lawn we're saying we're just going to take it on for 25 000 I mean yeah her budget is massive and we're splitting hairs over yeah this okay so what you're saying just eliminate it don't even um consider that it's just Alternative Program here because we're already it's twenty five thousand dollars yeah and it's about making sure Burnsville doesn't look overgrown and yeah okay Benji eliminate it in Bowl okay and Karen um having other people pay to to do that if if we want to do that I would want it to be that it's being paid for and not being paid for by everyone else because I believe that I believe it's unfair but we do that I don't use soccer fields and I pay for those to get mode yeah I don't play soccer yep do we do you own the soccer field oh but I think the if you promise is the same field I'm still playing someone else owned a soccer field and we'd be like well we're gonna we're gonna mow this other person's soccer fields but we're not gonna mow yours and we want you to pay for this other soccer field to be mowed that's what we're doing all right um Dan and Kara you say you want the alternative program yeah I think it's a easy uh I'm with existing president to follow yeah from the very beginning we were mowing it everything worked fine and we'll go back to where we were doing it before so there is three to two there's a majority to eliminate the program keep the city looking good it's twenty five thousand dollars for us to do that correct yeah okay it's no different than thirty one dollars to get in them in a and uh and spray all the weeds before they get really bad and the boulevards and the so that spring the weeds along the boulevards and the medians people's home yards pardon me we spray people's homes yards yeah in front of the you know between the uh the sidewalk and uh and uh and the street and uh what it what is right-of-way more of the mediums yeah yeah and the medians yeah and that's and I it's probably more than thirty one thousand dollars now and we because when we're supposed to be like friendly with butterflies and yeah um just one concern uh I have a chain link steel fence and I have long grass in my backyard and you're mowing the city's mowing my median does Code Enforcement go uh if a complaint comes in about my backyard what am I going to do as a homework fence or is that on the is visible from the outside the city keeps coming buying mowing my mowing my median but won't mow my backyard link fence and and it's an and the grass is in your yard I know but the homeowner is going to go why you're mowing my median why don't you just mow my backyard there's a chain-link fence I know it's a it's a change and there isn't an opening we're splitting here and right now we have a 3-2 just get it done make the city look nice got a direction thank you yeah vibrancy we want a Vibrant Community okay the next one is the elf Grant discussion fire chief BJ Youngman and Regina Dean good evening mayor members of the council uh I also was able to keep this to a couple of slides into three but uh a short number thanks a lot of work on that BJ thanks to Regina who did a phenomenal job putting this together but Regina and I are here tonight to talk about I don't want that to be the precedent like that you have to have three slides to get a compliment BJ before you uh get rolling uh just quickly for the council and for the community uh our new community development director Jeff Thompson is joining us this evening uh Jeff's first day was yesterday so nothing like throwing Jeff right into the public process Jeff joins Burnsville after uh several years as the community development director at Maplewood in uh it is with great excitement that I introduce him to you and to our community we're excited to have Jeff here bringing his expertise and talent to our community he's going to do great things so welcome Jeff yeah and thank you for introducing Jeff to the community and welcome I hope your first two days I think okay it's not so bad I will be here tomorrow he's been fed twice today that's always good we're excited to have Jeff here so yeah so now on with the presentation so we'll talk about environmental Legacy fund Grant um so some background 1.1 million was approved by Dakota County uh we can use it for land acquisition Demolition and environmental cleanup it's subject to a jpa that is approved by the CDA Dakota County CDA once the funds are approved by the CDA the city can seek reimbursement funds must be expended by November 25th 2022 unless an extension is approved hence why we are here today that is a really small slide with a bunch of timelines I would point out the important piece of that is the November 25th uh 2022 exploration of our current Grant and we had 800 of the 1.1 million allocated for the MWF project on the U.S bank property site they went through their application as their purchase agreement expired with U.S banks so it leaves us in a position where we got 1.1 million dollars of money that needs to be expended in the next six weeks not really feasible to do that we want to go to the county with a strong reason for the extension and we think the best way to do that is to have some idea of what what kind of project we'd be using this for we think that's our best case to the county and we think there's many opportunities to use it none of these are perfect the timing isn't perfect but the reality is we want to expend the 1.1 million dollars in our community so our great Community Development Economic Development staff came up with some ideas there's two properties it's kind of narrowed down to the three 301 and 315 Concord Place there's a purchase agreement in place to be used for Gap funding for land acquisition and demolition for the future of a multi-family development as you know we got two buildings going in there already so this would be kind of a phase three ready to go as you may see there's a letter of support from the current Property Owners Association they like I said they do have a purchase agreement in place for all all eight units there so that is property one uh property two is uh the wolf pack site at 140 20 count of five it'd be for Gap funding land acquisition and demolition again it'd be the future of a multi-family development the point here is that there isn't a purchase agreement in place we we've had a developer interested in it but there's nothing in hand so uh it's a little further down the road than the Concord Place So based on that really our question is and I'll let Regina fill any gaps I might have missed along the way uh what is the council's priority for the use of the 1.1 million elf Grant if an extension is granted and the staff recommendation on this is that we consider using the elf grant for the Concord office building Redevelopment project for Gap funding associated with land acquisition and demolition again I know this isn't a perfect solution but we think the timeliness of this and having a purchase agreement in place is probably the most uh compelling case for us to use that money so with that Regina anything to add the only thing additionally I have Chris stoker with MWF properties is available if there are any specific questions but um BJ did an amazing job going over the two options that we see is feasible one being the staff recommendation Genji if you want to get right to it I look at the the Concorde as the Bird in Hand it's the one that there's a contract on that we can do something about quickly I do have concerns that the colony might not give us an extension if we don't come with something and we've been playing with this for a few years I never thought it would be this difficult for us to spend 1.1 million dollars in Redevelopment in our city but it has and I don't I don't want to lose that money it's uh and it will finish up that finish out that little area where those other two buildings are going to get rid of that that what that is I saw that Concord Building and it just helps for the entire Heart of the City area itself so that would be my my belief that's what we should do bench um yeah we need to have something prepared if we're going to ask the county for an extension and this is ripe for redevelopment and if all the heavy lifting's already been done um I'd be in favor of it um my only I guess ask would be that we have a discussion with MWF when something comes forward which I know we will about how this development will look um but I'll save that for another discussion okay would the city be putting any of our funds in towards this I know in some of the other projects we had looked at we would be getting the grant but the city would also have to be putting in considerable amount of money would the city be putting in any other funds with this um thanks for the question I can answer that BJ um we would the proposal would be not to add any additional City funds we would certainly be open to working with the developer to partner in any grant opportunities through either the Department of Employment and economic development or through the Metropolitan Council but no City additional funds Associated thank you Economic Development doesn't have any funds yeah Dan Kate um what was the butt for test that this particular project passed to qualify for Elf Grant so we will be working with the developer if there is um consensus or a majority of the council says move forward with this project they'll submit a application financial assistance application with the city they'll be provided to provide the required application materials and then we'll work with allers our Financial Consultant to analyze to to verify that they will meet the butt for test that portion has not happened yet okay so it's it's actually a stretched pardon me what we're trying to do is um take a leap of faith um to put these all funds on the hook for this particular project which may not even pass the butt for test yeah well they did approve this one point they the one point um one according to the background and remembering what that we can purchase it for um demolition we can use it for demolition and also for land acquisition correct yep yeah BJ yeah mayor members of the council we don't have any project that's ready with the butt forecast so yeah unfortunately again timing wise we're stuck with kind of a leap of faith and putting something forward uh to the best of our ability based on what we have in front of us again it's not a perfect scenario but we want to put our best foot forward so could we if this one were put forward and we were granted an extension and this one failed the forecast do we have an option to flip it to one of the other projects that we might see as more valuable to take control of and demo it I don't know if the county Grant has any restrictions if they extend it unless they give us an extension that says you can only use it for it so I think it's yet to be determined burning the extension is really the key here and the project could actually yeah could move to something else if needed and that's if we get the extension right step one it's not a sure thing but correct correct okay we just don't believe that if we just go forward and say we want an extension without anything in hand sure we and we just lose it yeah we don't think that we have a great chance I don't even know the percentage with this but right we think that this is the best the way to put our best foot forward in best position the city so we don't lose the 1.1 million yeah okay and the 1.1 million with the Concord is like shuttle ready you use that vernacular yeah if it's and if it could pass the blood forecast yeah which County Road 5 property that has been a property that we've gone over and over and there I I don't have trust with the ownership of that of that property to even see that they would have anything close to doing something on that property if you remember and there are a lot of constraints and challenges with that property because the county will not allow any in and out remember we were also thinking about that for fire station one and even for Public Safety they weren't going to allow us to put an in and out and that means it'll go through um the neighborhood and the neighborhood did not like that yeah that's a lot more issues the workforce housing that was proposed was a different kind of use that that was probably going to pass and go through the neighborhood and be okay because it's building another neighborhood basically just putting more homes in that area right as opposed to a different type of development yeah and a neighborhood has a huge voice that neighborhood has a huge voice yeah I know that a lot of them would like to see that redeveloped too their that voice is not saying leave it as is it's saying no please develop this do something with it right yeah not quite as loud as stiffly but it's there yeah yeah so for me the Concord piece is the most viable piece that I believe that if the county takes a look at it and says okay the ownership of the property with this letter that they sent us uh is on board with doing that and this is to provide Gap financing for this property and that fits if you're looking for a but four it fits what they're talking about with regard to how the the funds should be used well yeah it's triggered off of need and the project so it's not just well hey we got a building to demolish can we have some money we don't need it but can we have it anyway right we've had projects you know it goes for that sort of approach yeah it goes through and in reading the background and also from the past in what the 1.1 and how we have used it in the past um we fit the criteria that they put on the table so it's a shovel ready project with willing sellers and is there a willing buyer yes I see is there need yeah is there right is there hardship is their soils is their uh you know exactly all the things that they have to do yep yeah but at least when we come to the county we say here's we have a we have willing Sellers and we have a willing buyer and there is a project that can be put in place and it fits the criteria that they have given us so if you're looking for a butt four does it meet the criteria but we don't but we we don't have any there's not going to be any tips so there's no but for for a tiff there is we don't have Economic Development funds so there's no need for a but for for that we don't have any money no we're not talking about Tiff we're talking about the health yeah but the county has given us criteria we meet it so Concord you voting for Concord to get us time yes yeah Concord yes Concord Concord Concord you have unanimous Chief Council thank you for the direction on that I appreciate it and we'll get going preparing a letter to the county and making sure the CDA is aware and package that up so thank you very much well thank you for all of you and to you Chief I want to thank you for stepping up when we needed someone to help us with Community Development and you've done a lot of heavy lifting there was a lot of property maintenance stuff that you had had to do with and thank you for going with me to talk to neighborhoods who were frustrated and so forth so thank you for everything that you have done because you were wearing quite a few hats so thank you thank you Mary we've got great staff and it's been a great opportunity to learn and work with them so thanks BJ thank you yeah thank you Regina okay uh we now move on um Michelle first round table item is yours thank you madam mayor um like you to the council to consider we do need to have a special counsel meeting to Canvas the general election results and that needs to happen within 10 days after the general election looking at the calendars I have noticed that quite a few are going to be out of town especially that second week we're not capable of getting it done that first week remember we have Veterans Day on Friday after the general election so that puts us in a time crunch we have council members leading for NLC on the 14th and 15th and I want to make sure that we have a quorum oh let me pull up my calendar to make sure I'm not giving you a wrong date here on the 15th and 16th you'll be leaving for NLC I'm proposing maybe late afternoon on the 14th as a potential date for the canvas and wanted to see if unless you have works for me um what was that date again the Monday the November 14th I have a due date on the 13th so I may you may be there you may not be there may or may not be at a hospital in the 14th well without everything that's kind of happening we know that the mayor is going to be out of town we know you're leaving on the 15th and I believe councilmember Kelly is leaving on the 16th so we want to make sure that we if Vince is not available we want to make sure we have we have a forum I'll be I can be here on the 14th okay I'm available on the 14th and are we looking at 5 p.m or 5 30 or what are we looking at it's open we could look at 4 pm if that works better I mean if the baby comes on the 13th I can sneak out for 20 minutes and be here yeah but if it comes on the 14th yep when I get home oh just having a week early okay and I don't know what your schedule looks like on that Monday but I'm happy to to do it at 5 30. that works for you okay go ahead and do that okay is the next one yours also or is that who's who's this the next one um work session for Holiday lighting another scheduling item yes yes um Madame mayor I brought this forward um our Public Works director had talked about giving the council a tour of the holiday lighting so this would need to happen after the holiday Lighting Event on November December calendar back up yeah on November 23rd so we need to have an after that and and preferably before it gets very deep with snow so it's on the 24th is Thanksgiving yes the 23rd is is the holiday lighting ceremony so it would need to be after that time so yeah and so Thanksgiving is that weekend we could look at any time in the next couple of weeks there like the 20s did you have a preference on any of those dates right but are you back on the 28th um 29th 29. we have a hold on we have a hold for a council work session yes but are we still doing that or not I am currently locked out of teams give me a moment did you forget your answer question just attended oh you know just new it stuff Vince Tom's not here to yell at um I I know who I'm blaming internally no doubt about it November 29th Council work session hold currently we do not have items scheduled do we have a November 22nd special legislative work session with our lobbyists on our legislative agenda and bonding right now the 29th is held for any potential budget discussions that need to happen I would suggest that the council is pretty late for Budget discussions based on where we are so we probably are open that night okay yeah we'll change out a meeting for us sure yeah we'll do a work session Tour on the 29th okay you may recall that the conversation was do we want to change it up and we said no let's just take a look at what we got first in person so that we've got a good feel and then we'll we'll go through all that stuff okay okay um will we invite the we should invite the Burnsville Community Foundation to be with us that would absolutely because they're helping us to raise the funds for the holiday lighting they're very tied to it and yeah helps everything else as well and we need to make sure that they're a part of this yep good call okay all right okay reports Vince do you have anything no no Burnsville meets next week karaoke uh just dbb is pushing ahead we're trying to get it mapped out a little more on what it will look like to dissolve it and then also we went through um areas where the county is still open to working with cities and that type of stuff so we're just starting that conversation so we can get that going and look at are we are we going to do a different joint Powers so okay but we're plugging along okay Dan nothing really major of note MBTA and sta are having a lot of discussions we're just teeing up discussions on post-pandemic ridership and express Services brt routes Light Rail Etc with the Met Council it's probably going to be a fairly lengthy discussion uh prolonged over a period of time for ships as large as the Met Council to adjust to the post-pandemic reality that the workforce is not likely to go back to the office at the levels of pre-pandemic and that we from a Transit standpoint infrastructure have to do some studies and um figure out how we shift resources from one area that is obviously not as big as it used to be to other areas that are growing very very quickly in suburb to suburb service that is fully recovered and growing past pre-ta pandemic levels on demand service point to point on demand is just constantly growing month over month and it never ceases to slow down all over the city and so the the need for more infrastructure drivers equipment buses of different sizes and so a lot of very very difficult discussions but we're Nimble the Suburban Transit Association members MBTA Southwest were very Nimble uh very efficient what we do I'm not sure we could say the same thing about met Transit with the projects of brt lines that they've they've been putting in and planning orange line is one of them where there is empty buses going back and forth North and South every day and uh and the Southwest light rail line which is uh half a billion dollars in the hole and there may be serious questions whether it should be built and so this pandemic is probably going to have a pretty lasting jarring effect on Transit across the country in major metropolitan areas so tough to ski decisions and discussions coming over the next year so some some good some good challenges that take people outside of the box and inside of the box okay um Municipal legislative commission um I'm going to spend very busy this last week so Hugo has been my my partner on a lot of these and uh Greg's uh Greg's up weekly update uh gave you information about what happened at the municipal legislative commission and he also included the link to uh the uh slide that had to do with elections and what's going on in that regard otherwise the Burnsville Community Foundation meets this Thursday and um you know that's where we're at so all is good okay is there anything else step BJ Bethany you have anything yeah hey Jeff Thompson you have anything Jeff and Ryan we're good you're good thanks I would like to uh thank my wife for eight wonderful years it was my anniversary yay happy anniversary defying all the odds yeah I understand that you go anything else somebody actually wants to hang out with me anything from your side uh and you don't have anything with that we stand adjourned by acclamation thank you everybody and have a good night along my exactly