e e e e e e e e how you doing Brian is in his meeting what meeting is that for oh yes that's due my car pass your yeah I can't run anymore my KNE just saw yeah sweet you're good is is he from old hey hey how's it going good oh my gosh 402 I'm sorry yes thank you you're the best didn't know for it one can or two can night so I got two and that's the wrong liquid too by the [Laughter] way planing you know what oh did you you're oh [ __ ] you left it in the car yeah on purpose no get out of here you can leave I may have to step out for a quick second are we the okay we good everybody here um like to call the social workshop to order and this is our informational meeting for um the community center can you please do roll call council member Cole here council member schweer here council member Wong here council member nordby here mayor mongi here can I get a motion to adopt the agenda please so move j honor so move council member Wong second second council member s all those in favor say I I I topics thank you mayor this is is strictly a meeting for discussions on the community center this evening we have Jonathan loose here from wal that's going to be discussing and kind of how we got here and potential aspects of moving forward um so turn it over you Jonathan do you have the materials up here yeah they should appreciate it Brian thank you mayor council for having us here having me by myself here Paige couldn't make it tonight um again I think this has been kind of a long road um for us to gather all the information we needed to but uh really we took kind of two different steps in the process one was understanding the condition of the facility and one was understanding the potential purpose for the facility as well um so that's kind of how our presentation breaks down a little bit um we've got um essentially that facility assessment that um you have that full report with you I think as well that shows at least that snapshot in time when we did that visit you know maybe a year and a half ago now um where we understood kind of all of the potential deferred maintenance items that were out there and when we use the term deferred maintenance you know it does it's not a bad thing it just means that there's things that have to be done and often times things do get deferred for Budget reasons or um priorities or just because it just hasn't been gotten to yet so um that's kind of what contributed to that list certainly I know that the city's continue to make improvements to that building even today and so there's potentially some modifications within that report we haven't gone back and done like a whole update of it um but we have done is update the cost so that they're kind of real time for if you're going to move forward with something within there so if you see some differences from previous presentations to now um that's sort of contributing to that difference is really just us projecting inflation that's all um and then the sort of community input piece was the other big thing that we looked at was trying to gather um what maybe support or Partnerships or even just general thoughts there were on the use of the facility and so that's sort of that other big component of our um I guess presentation that we have um Brian did you able were you able to pull that up or oh I can just kind of talk through it if you do you guys have do you have in front of you at all or okay um so again I think where this started was um you know our core Planning Group um couple our council members thank you for being a part of that um if you recall sort of Craig um was a part of that group as well to sort of initiate the start of that discussion um and a few other key folks from the city helped um sort of move this process forward um so we had you know uh multiple different meetings with that group to sort of Bounce things off of and make sure that the process was being followed and that we were U making sense of what was happening I think the other big thing that we did was sort of establish some guiding principles about what we were going to do um I've listed them here and as we go back and reflect on those um you know I I think our core Planning Group has been on sort of a long path of what we discovered along the way here um we haven't had a meeting for quite some time as a group uh but I imagine that we may look at these guiding principles and think that there would be some potential modifications to those uh but again haven't had a full meeting with our Core Group um for quite some time but I'll just um State the three sort of major guiding principles um one is the true cost of operating the facility must match or exceed um the community's interest it must be justifiable to the city's residents the second is the facility should promote the potential Parks and Recreation Department and become an asset that they could then manage and operate and then the third is the project should build on the momentum of the resident engagement sessions to create relevant and usable community space now the third one is sort of um reflective of part of what we did throughout the process um and I'm jumping ahead a little bit as a part of that Community input process we met with about 22 different um groups within North St Paul whether it was businesses or churches or um other nonprofit entities and of those groups I think there was a large majority that had some amount of support for for this building being used as a community center and so that's the third one sort of projects that there would be some momentum already um only in so far as we heard that from the community we didn't put that out in front beforehand um so then just kind of going back to our agenda just walking through that facility assessment piece of it um I don't think I'm going to spend time like reading every single thing on these slides I don't know that that's beneficial for um anybody individually I can certainly go back to this and look at individual items but I think the major components of the building are really the exterior um so you know roof walls just kind of making it well weather proof and then some of the infrastructure needs of the facility too that are just aging um so that' be like mechanical systems and then some of the electrical components that are just at you know passor useful life so that's really what contributes to a lot of the items that are in here um I think again like I said some of those have been addressed um maybe even since we put this report together um but that sort of um led us to try to prioritize some of those items and a lot of times those priorities are um reflective of how it might play into some other project or some other investment you would make at that facility um let's just suggest you had a a a building with two different rooms right and room one um needed carpet replacement and room two was perfect and if you're going to go through and renovate room two would you then just decide to replace the carpet in room one as well and so sometimes you rep prioritize things based on what you think the project is going to be so you're not spending money twice or something like that um in this case we kind of looked at the facility assessment on its own irrespective of what the rest of that sort of Engagement process and potential use of the facility might be and that was just so we could get that true snapshot in time of what the Deferred maintenance costs were and what that also meant is the priorities that we put together um really had more to do with the timeline and maybe the size of the work as well um so as you look through that report and see some things that are you know Priority One those are ones that not just wed but in concert with Ron and the city felt like were high priority so um a roof that's leaking certainly would become a priority one if there was some other major life safety issue that would percolate up to a priority one and so that's sort of how those priorities were made we usually um sort of assign priori based on some agreement about what those are how those are defined and that's indicated here uh but then we do it in concert with the core Planning Group and and um City facility folks as well to make sure that there's alignment on what they think is Major because when we just go out to a building and see something that's different than them looking at it and saying well that's leaking and if it wasn't when I was there it's hard to really capture that so I think that kind of gets us to the point where we've got a report that's um pretty robust it really tells you what the cost of um some of these repairs are going to be and it gives you a guide as to when some of those repairs or different maintenance items should occur um so that kind of closes out that um at least the report portion of that as I stated before we updated the cost to be reflective of um if you were going to say you know start the all of those projects within the next few months um then we're talking about probably construction starting in you know 6 to 8 months or something just for time to design that and get a set of bid documents out for it now often times those get broken into smaller projects um but for the purposes of today we just looked at it and said okay what's the whole what's the whole package look like if you were just going to you know put everything into the building and and get it all done which I I'm not sure that we would necessarily suggest because there are those priorities that kind of help you delineate what has to be now and what could be done later um but again just as summary um if you skip forward to I don't know probably slide 10 um so again the the the inflated costs are just projecting somewhere between like 6 to 8% inflation per year going out and what we typically look at is the state of Minnesota establishes construction cost inflation tables um so it's not just kind of us you know putting our finger in the air and deciding what we think an inflation amount is going to be um we kind of use um historical and projected data that the state of Minnesota puts together for construction projects um so again that that overall project cost is that $6.3 million defered maintenance cost we'll say and when we say project cost that's inclusive of not just what the contractor's price is for that project um but it's inclusive of all the soft costs as well so that's any sort of design fees testing plan review costs for the city or the state all of those sort of ancillary costs that go into that as well as you know typically a 10% or more contingency um when we're this early on in the process of looking at some of those items um it doesn't do us any good to tell you what the cheapest price is to be we want you to try to budget for a project and give you a contingency so that if you're going to move forward with something um you wouldn't be left um you know with $6.8 Million worth of projects it really should be reflective of the all-in cost to cover the items that are in there um when we look at um just sort of the investment in the facility and I think that that's another thing that we kind of wanted to gather as a as a group was understanding you know what what are the costs of the improvements here and is it is it worth spending this kind of money on this building and from just a very sort of objective Viewpoint um there's a national um facility managers Department that you uses this um facility condition index and so it's kind of an industry standard amongst um facility managers to use that and the facility condition index is really just essentially the cost of the repairs versus the cost to essentially rebuild the building exactly as it is um exclusive of you know land acquisition or site cost or anything what you're really trying to do is say if you're going to replace this building in kind how does that compare to what the cost of those improvements are and so that's what that facility condition index gives you um right now we're at like 45.5% and generally anything that's um at or below 50 is really considered a building that people would typically still want to invest money into so I think this just tells us that you're still within that threshold um but bear in mind too that of the 6.3 million we identified that there's different priorities in there so you don't necessarily have to do a lot of those and a lot of those things could continue to be deferred or some of them could be done directly by facility staff within the city thereby you wouldn't be paying labor costs necessarily you're kind of just absorbing it into the facilities existing you know operating budget potentially now we didn't get into funding mechanisms for for this um particular piece of the project necessarily so I'm just sort of suggesting some avenues that we've seen happen in the past but again ways to kind of cut back on that overall price tag um that's up here right now um any questions about that sort of just broad overview of the facility assessment the process that we went through um or uh just individual cost items or anything like that anyone okay continue that was way too easy we're not done oh I appreciate that um the the next piece of this um is really sort of all of the different groups that we met with and we summarized um some of the information from all the different um we'll just call them Community Partners um that are out there uh we can go back to any one of these individual groups um I have this in here for you know your own purposes to look at now or you know previously when you Reed the information but I think globally like I said said really of the 22 different groups we met with I would say there's a minimum of 80% of those that um really had support for some component of this building and whether that was um direct partnership or just felt like there was a good use for it or maybe just felt like this was a good component for the city to provide as a you know as a community there was some positive um sort of support for that building continuing to be a city facility and continuing to be a community center um when we looked at the individual spaces early on in our study and I think um I always use this example with our core Planning Group is we wanted to meet with those groups to understand if we were going to make some holistic changes to the building is there support for that and what would that cost and the reality is you know we maybe heard a couple groups say like we could really use a community pool well I think we kind of knew early on that we weren't going to be doing a pool addition to this project um but just as an example um what we wanted to do was understand if there was some sort of modest changes that could be made within the facility um to be more suited towards the community's need um then we would sort of program out that you know plan and maybe do some schematic diagrams or something like that and then identify a cost for that at the end of this whole process I think what we really found is that the spaces that that building provides um really are adequate for what the community was looking for and that would be a gym um the walking Track was certainly something that was attractive to a lot of folks um that would be those meeting rooms kind of adjacent to the library so there's a lot of discussion about just a community Gathering or community meeting space various different sizes of those were requested by the different groups whether it was you know using the gym for um some larger meeting or just using the meeting room for some smaller sort of individual group within the city I think all those spaces as they exist today um you know barring any deferred maintenance work that has to occur within those um really there was a lot of support for the building sort of I'll say as is um so that just told us that there was um not a lot that had to be invested from holistic changes or renovation to the building more of what we were looking at then was really reflecting back on that um sort of defered maintenance cost and saying it could really be used almost as is but in order to have it be a viable facility you would want to reinvest those dollars with that deferred maintenance cost so that you're kind of resetting the lifespan of the facility and its infrastructure as well um um so those are sort of the big takeaways from um the community feedback and then I sort of got into some of those conclusions that I think our core Planning Group started to um assess if we jump to um we we kind of have um something called recommendations on here on slide 34 but um I don't know that we're necessarily making any recommendation right now I would just reflect and say the the condition of the facility and knowing that that facility condition index and the different maintenance costs support sort of reinvestment um if there's a use for the building and the community I think we sort of heard and our core Planning Group heard that there is support for use for the facility and so with those couple of things and with receiving you know State dollars um in the you know previous bonding bill so um there's definitely large sort of some momentum around um potentially utilizing that Community Center and having some strong support there and saying this is a building that is you know from from our architectural opinion um worth reinvesting in now I know that there's um other factors at play like how you would operate it and who would actually be in there and I'm sure that that's more of the discussion that potentially takes place tonight but I think that's kind of the summary of our um sort of work that we went through and some of just highle conclusions that we found as a part of that I don't know 20 15 minutes I can go back and go back I can go back to any specific piece of information but um I wanted to just kind of give that broad brush stroke of of the study and and kind of cut to some of the discussion the study shows that there um were the businesses reached out to was any community members involved in it um yeah when when you say that do you mean like individual community members individuals that live in North St Paul themselves yeah there was actually a another community meeting that took place um sort of as a side um discussion from our group um that the city went through and I think that there was um just some Community feedback that there was support there I wasn't actually that meeting um but that was sort of another component that kind of fed into um really and probably echoed a lot of what we heard from some of the local businesses and some of those businesses have residents in the city as well not just outside um people I can add to that a little bit um there was one meeting open to the public and Dr wden was at that and I was at that as well um and they did open it up to what public needs they'd want um there was maybe 30 to 35 people there um maybe not quite half of them were just the kids that that they brought along but they had ideas of that's where some of the information came in that if we could open up to seniors we could open up to kids and it was just kind of a throw it all out there to see what kind of needs the community may want or need any more with your presentation or is that you wrapped up that that's what I have I'm I'm here to answer any other questions just want to make sure we W's nothing else yep by the way we appreciate you putting this togethers thank you and working with the city Jonathan I just want to personally thank you we've we've dated for a long time now there's a few of us there's a few of us in here that have have have some tenure together um I definitely appreciate you what what you brought forward I think you did a very nice job presenting and and uh um bringing everybody up to speed with you know kind of where the building is where the investment can be where the investment should be whether it's you know it's the building's not in too bad of shape yet that you know a little investment in the the infrastructure of the building is still good um I like the fact that you addressed on um roughly about 80% of the businesses in North St Paul support the fact of the community center in one shape or form um there was a whole lot of information shared on what exactly those uses will be and I I don't I think some of that is is in this document as well so uh I appreciate you bringing that information forward um because to date a lot of what we really talked about is just the financial aspect of of what it could cost this could cost the city and what each individual you know would be responsible and be on the hook for we haven't talked Revenue sources we haven't talked who would use it we haven't talked long-term strategy we haven't addressed any of that yet so I appreciate you starting to bring that information forward yeah definitely thank you yeah um I I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't there's one maybe big component that I didn't mention of the building that really is very important is the actual Library um so that was something that I think there was extremely strong support for um the library here and um the use of the library here tends to be very high um after we met with Ramsey County on site um there's a lot of folks that have um needs for Technology support um that they don't otherwise have at home and so there's a lot of use for technology in the library and as one of two um they're only one of two least libraries that Ramsay County has um this is one of the probably libraries kind of I I don't know if it's like per capita or by square footage but it definitely has a lot of traffic maybe compared to some of the other libraries that they've got so um just want to mention that that's another strong component of the building that exists and operates today right thank you thank you mayor we also did meet with the library today as just uh see where they were at and they're you know they're very happy with this facility um they were even saying that this is more attended than Mounds View so it's uh 50 to 60,000 or more people a year had been using this I guess so they're really excited about being here and want to continue that relationship in whatever format we have going forward okay can I ask a question about the library um you use the word lease my understanding is it's a zero cost lease so is that correct so the agreement was they did The Upfront cost to build the addition of the building which was the building itself was a little over $500,000 and then they put $200,000 worth of like books and furniture and things like that in there um with the agreement that then their monthly lease cost is a dollar a month so okay thank you for how many so for 20 years for 20 years excuse me that is up this year um there's some debate about that so so the records aren't accurate unfortunately there wasn't a signed agreement at first um and when it caught the attention of the powers that be at the time they said well we need some kind of signed uh contract in place so they signed it back in 2010 but you know they were actually started inside of there it sounds like um it started in 2004 I think they finished up 56 area that that it was already opening functioning so it's a question of what's their start date that they actually consider it by um but if you're going to buy a legal contract that have signatures on it uh that was signed in 2010 but they were open to the discussion by uh according to our attorney what would stand up would probably 2010 but um if if the contract is broke what they could do is um prate it out for the amount of time potentially um to pay out or off the lease um but that there's many questions to be asked to get to that point right now and can you remind me if that lease were to be determinated what the cost for us as a city would be for the county so um it wasn't spelled out as far as would they be able to prate it from the date that it kind of started so that would considerably be a lot less than well their actual construction costs like I said were a little over $5 million so I guess that would go down to lawyers saying well is it 5 million or do you prate that 5 million of the time that they've already spent there to win the end of the contract would be which if they went with the longer um idea of that contract it would be 20 uh 30 so we would still have another six years if that's the date that we had to go off of so it's a no different than this other contract that we're going to be getting into for the community center where there's a length of time and we need to be able to keep it open for that amount of time tied to it so it's 37 years for that one other agreement you're talking about is the dollars accepting by what the state has said that they us yeah just like she when she mentioned what the county is we're we're kind of at the same deal when it comes to what we're signing up for the other thing too the way the contract reads is um they take the what they call the useful life of a facility um we did an original calculation we used 40 years but I wanted to get it straight from deed who um carries out the bonding and they said well we generally anywhere from a neighborhood of 25 to 35 years so we picked 30 right down the middle and they said that um you need to be vested in that for 125% of its useful life and that brings us to the 37 and a half years I'm just the the difference you know y the the county we have you know with this one and how long and how things change over the years that's a that's a long time for both contracts yes the one point to keep in mind mind is we haven't discussed in group in Council uh anything that came from the county and from deed as far as what what this represents um and all of that is subject to uh revision so we can collectively go through it and decide if there's things we can and can't live without to your point I think 37 and a half years is excessive um so from it's my understanding that virtually every point is negotiable that's on there and we can then make our recommendations and submit back and I think you've heard the same as well that you know we we can present what we would like back to them to see where they they are it sounds like it has the potential of being multiple yes um that's coming from people who have experienced and have received monies in the past through the bonding process I don't know how much leeway that takes but that's a conversation to be had with deed what's next I guess uh if you guys don't any further questions it's uh your option to open it up if the public wants to give input and if but if they do you have to only talk about what's at hand the information about the uh Community Center do we have any more information on our side for our staff that we're over or is that or was presentation is it that was it correct yes um on my end I we came into this last year we knew W was part of this I would like to see a chronology of how did this come to play What was decided coko was in there they were under my impression they were they put money on the table and said we'll buy the facility it was agreed upon that that that we didn't sell it now this is stuff that I'm understanding so I'm not putting facts or anything on that table but what I understand is that we chose not to sell it to them that the city has decided to keep it unsure of what whatever we were going to do in the future um wal was brought on Craig was brought on and that's all I got I can give you what I know up to this I wasn't involved at this level back then but um so the community center has been closed down for about 12 years now um it just wasn't financially viable um it it was too much subsidies Too Much subsidization from the city and other funds um so they're looking at closing it then ended up having a hockey group came in and they did a lease with them for a little while that ended up not working out after a bit and that's when Coco came along and they were interested in the gymnasium for that space they grew since the time that they went in there you know brought in a couple other vendors with uh physical therapist uh Chiropractic um and that kind of brings us up to you know just a few years ago when they decided to build their own facility and move into that I know that's pretty broad but um generally how we got to where we are a lot of side discussions you know but more of the planning aspect of things so they weren't necessarily things that were voted on by council at time but you know I believe the city manager at the time was talking with um different people um through the legislature they they would looked in a while back before I got involved of going to the legislature for some kind of bonding money I don't think they just got quite got to that point um but there were just concerns of the cost that uh they we need to do something different than what we were doing to keep it working I guess I'm leaning to council members that have been involved in this and placing it on the table and helping us understand what's happening what happened what got you guys here you guys went to the legislator so I think there's a whole lot that hasn't been discussed or addressed especially with the the new the new presence of the three of you uh I would put it back on staff and put put the responsibility back on them to bring have them bring everyone up to speed at the same time so that we address everything um the building did have two offers for sale both of which were turned down by by Council um there's a whole lot of things that have happened in we've been together three years two and a half somewhere in there um that happened be um prior to and up to Bringing wal on on board a lot of discussion that um I think it would be incumbent upon the due diligence to be presented to council Lisa do you have any council member Wong do you have any other uh no I I certainly think that a chronological explanation would be very helpful to and and very foundational for you all to understand um how we got here because there are a lot of components to it um and it's not really just a straight you know line situation there's a lot of different things at play and so I think that would be really helpful um if we had that laid out and then we can have a conversation about um some more details when we have all of that information right in front of us does that help doesn't give you an answer tonight but do no I mean I it does help but what I find interesting is that we're having this meeting on the community center and it's stated as Community Center discussion and then find out wal is here presenting yeah where is the rest of the information regarding the community center we're supposed to discuss something on the community center and we're discussing a presentation that wal completed 18 months ago is that what it was no yeah I mean it was I'm sorry I yeah no that's fine it was it was maybe complete um six months ago okay around around the time that that bonding Bill kind of came to pass is about the time that we kind of concluded our study just you know it for no other reason than that just how the timeline worked out thank you so then we receive this we get the packet there's 75 pages in this in 24 hours we all work full-time jobs and we're supposed to look at this and come to the table just to listen to a presentation and we're supposed to have a conversation about the community center would you want to go over that um your PowerPoint and if we go over that by each page it may spark questions that they come up because you know like I said three of the people that were here haven't been involved in that step-by-step process um especially like the court group we did read it we just don't know the history behind the what we see there too that's part of it as well would that be helpful for you to for I mean for any sort of discussion yes I mean it's we're supposed to discuss this in front of the community we're we're having a special meeting on this this is that and right now what we be discussed is what has been out in the newsletter as far as what we've seen and what the the public has seen the grants and things like that so that's the information I I've received and that's what I'm looking at is to try to understand that can we do that I'm yeah I'm fine going back through stuff I mean let's do that please let's go I'll say that the information that we have is is um thank you wal for doing this work um I think you know it gives us a really great large picture of what needs to be done in a plan forward um does it probably need to be Revisited now that there have been changes as he had alluded to um because Public Works has done a lot of the work yeah so that could change it as well and so I think there's opportunity for us to also revisit this at another time but I think um what has been put before us really does lay out a very simple straightforward way on the building component I think one thing that we have not discussed at all is the financial operations piece and so um I think that's completely missing and so the information that does go out or has gone out only refers to expenses and does not refer to what Revenue could could and what that could look like right and that was one of the unknown ones I believe that was in that as well that just because we don't have anybody that's signed up or any kind of lease in place to so but we had the potential there that yeah it would certainly affect right now this has just tell us what the building what are we going to do with the building we know what it's going to take to get it fixed and pretty much it's going to bring it back up to 1992 we're not changing the inside as far as rooms and things like that we're bringing it back up to the way it was when when it first happened it's pretty pretty much by the looks of you know fixing doorways painting inside and replacing the gym floor which we all see as EMB beds the big thing is what are we going to do with it and where is it going to benefit and now that we got you know as far as numbers thank you again for the numbers and we got from the legislator what the stipulations and terms are then we have to for me for part of that too is understand is that something that we're good with as far as the terms and things like that as well I'm sorry can you reframe that I didn't understand it sure we know how much it costs now as far as the you know how much cost to fix the building up that part of it too is part of it and then to understand with the with the grants you know what the terms are what we have to live in with ins inside the grants is what I was talking about what are the terms that you have concerns about uh the years I do how long 37 and A2 years correct okay I mean we're talking about the library now and what we're going to do if we had to get out of that and you know you know so I just want to make sure that that's a long long time out 37 and a half years I guess my question is you know what's to say that we can't have a plan 372 years out to accommodate for for costs we don't have a plan now so I don't know plan 37 and a half years out what it's going to look like yeah and so I find it kind of difficult to um suggest that the terms can't be um accomplished or met without an initial plan so I guess if we had if we had the money and we did this ourselves we' be control of how it works it already it already failed once as far as the community center in 2012 and it hasn't been open since so now we're guaranteeing somebody else the length of so it's a lot that we need to put in and that's part of the whole picture of it too as well in my mind yeah absolutely I mean we have this building it's been sitting here for quite a long time 12 years it hasn't been utilized by the public unfortunately um I think it still can be used kakuro was using it and honestly I don't know why we haven't been for the last 12 years um opening it up to the public to rent out and use just like we do other Park systems and so I think with that said I mean I think there's a lot of opportunity for us to learn a little bit more about what the needs are um and what the payment and revenue could be and explore those models because the amount of money that um the state and the federal government have given us is $ 5.35 million that's over 70% of what is here um and this is over a long period of time we're already at 70% um of that in in year one that's a big deal that's a big investment and um I would just really you know caution that there are no ways to do it but there are certainly um I think that we need to give it more opportuni need to understand a little bit more about what our potential is yep and part of that is the financial and that's what I'm been looking at too as far as because I don't have any information on the other it closed in 2012 it was 350,000 loss in 2012 so they closed it so we have to learn from our past too to make sure we don't repeat it that's my point yeah and you know I totally agree I don't think always an old model Works um and I also think that our demographics have changed substantially and so there are a lot of different needs in our community that um you know hockey is not going to fly anymore um that didn't work out for the hockey team but we do have volleyball teams from my understanding knocking at our door wanting to use our gym so I just am wondering why you know we can't make that an opportunity is that there are there are opportunities on the table it's not that we can't visit them revenue is a great resource but we can't always utilize it specifically to revenue if we don't open it up to the community and we're renting it out all the time then what's purpose of all of us in the community paying for it if again I have no idea where the dollars are coming from we have a grant that was awarded to us we're not sure what that looks like we're not sure what the community center looks like right now um but we have to have some sort of plan and identify what are we going to do with this community center and right now what we know is that um we were Grant to the dollars we did not want to sell the facility and we're having a discussion and now we need to really figure out what we're going to do because we don't know what the timeline is on this money either this could be I don't know why I can't put them something down but we it needs to start we need to start discussing this because those dollars could be taken away from us well you reached out and said de's been getting a hold of you Brian to see where we're at correct they have I believe the whole process I believe they all lot 5 years so I mean there's a lot of work that needs to be done for the planning process by bringing in the air Architects the layout of what we're looking at and also the the plan and goal of what those uses will be and then all that information is turned back into deed they go over it and then approve or deny or mold it into uh what works for what was asked for for the grant to begin with so but like I said there's they do have the ability to mold that a little bit a couple other things that um I I think should be in included as we take a look at the chronological order one one thing that hasn't been provided um is what was what was um submitted to the House and Senate to provide the for them to provide the funding um keep in mind that both Lisa and I testified uh I testified in front of the house and you in front of the Senate and council member Wong testified in front of the house for this funding um the legislator voted and approved funding from taxpayer State taxpayer dollars to come to North St Paul so keep that in mind as well as we as we look at things not only did the prior Council see the benefit in it so did so did the state to invest their funding into our Direction so I think it's imperative that that information be shared um and I'm hearing that the results of the community center meeting that was held um um the the Jonathan rep reference that probably should be represented to um this group as well because it was very well attended it was very positive um there were individuals in in there who would love to have signed a lease that night I think with with what it would done what it would do um you know one of them was a youth program um so there's information that still isn't been brought on board um and not to sound preachy but the responsibility of the council is to not draw a conclusion of a project or of an event or of a of a comment until all sides have been heard um and I am currently feeling that decisions are being decided based on financials alone and that's not necessarily the way they look because we haven't taken a look at what this is going to do and provide to the community um just 80% business support combined with a lot of support here there's a lot of backbone support for this community center what's incumbent upon us is to figure out what that looks like going forward we haven't talked about that yet so to draw conclusion to the outcome of the community center is premature and I guess I ask that the remainder of the council remain open to it I haven't decided where I stand if it's strictly Financial it doesn't make a lot of sense but we haven't weighed in the benefits the revenue sources the Public Funding we haven't taken a look or discussed or even talked to anybody about any of that yet so I would just kind of like to level level set the group because this is a multi meding conversation well I've done three tours of the community center with different groups too so I have not you know as far as being open I've you know wanted to make sure that uh we had we had the um gorilla was a gorilla of war vets from the Vietnam they wanted to look at it we've had a couple other groups look at it so we have had groups come through when they've when there was opportunities for them so we have given tours for that as [Music] well yeah that's good information to know um I think also you know what are the inquiries that we're having around the Community Center I think there's been changes in the last year and a half so you know we've heard some volleyball teams we've heard some organizations um what are they asking for I think that's something that's you know not captured in in our presentation today because time has changed and I also think the scope of it it um you know we were looking very much at you know the businesses in town which are really important um and there's a lot of other folks you know interested in it that expand be beyond our our our B boundaries and Brian was there during those tours as well the two feed the feedback we had was the building you know they like the the layout of the building but the biggest thing we had is there's no yard because both of those groups wanted to have some outdoor thing and parking those are the two things that uh were the most common as far as you know it's kind of deceiving you look over and they think the um the apartment build building is is the is the community center yard and it's only a couple feet off of it and then it starts their property so it was a that was one a couple things we had there um question and I'm not sure who to direct this at so I apologize um one of the phrases I've heard um lately is 80% of the businesses um C can you tell me where that data came from so I can research that a little bit more is was it 80% of the business in attendance or was a poll put out yeah so I guess I'm saying of the 22 different groups that we met with um we actually went through a pretty extensive list of all of the businesses and groups within North St Paul and sort of determined all the different folks we were going to meet with and um 80% is based on my gut check like five minutes before I walked in here um but of the 22 I think there was pretty large support for use of the community center now I don't I use the term use very generally because I think that it it has different components depending on what different group we met with um but you know I'll just say use of it or support for it um was pretty large amongst the 22 groups that we met with and it it's all information we have and we can certainly share that I think if you read through the comments um in that sort of presentation um you'll see sort of where the support lies from those different groups to to address that a little a little more um we sat down collaboratively as a group and identified any business any entity whether it be Church bar youth group that could potentially have need or use for the community Center and I think that that list was brought down to to 22 lack of a better definition businesses or groups within the city at which point in time wal did extensive interviews with each one of them and had so it wasn't you know you tell me they went to them to solicit whether it was up or down yeah and we made a point to basically go to their place of business and be on their Turf I think that helps with that conversation so that was part of that process as well like for example I believe the VF the VFW was contacted um or at least the legion was and they already have space so to them you know they didn't necessarily see some of the uses as a smaller group that would um have lots of needs to do things provided whether it be business space or Recreation space um and I think a lot of that a lot of that was in the questions so it's I believe it's all in the packet for the most part but do that help it it does because we I was hearing 80% of businesses so I didn't know if 80% of the 22 oh okay I'm very data driven in y my life so I I just wasn't sure where that data was coming from I appreciate that clarification yeah and I by myself I reached out to the Conway gentleman that sent us the email just to have a little discussion with him too and you know when it comes to their location it's it's more partnership when people say use I you know we're not looking at a you know the old style Community Center it's more of a partnership where you have different partners with you on that it's not just oh yeah if you have space we'll use it we'll rent it here and there for our once a year meeting or something like that that's uh that's to me in my mind it's a full partnership it's a partnership with that because we have our we have our 37 and a half years we have our amount of time we need to have it so we need to have people with that as far as a partnership and it sounds like the library you said is interested in continuing to partner is that how I understood your statement earlier correct yes is that partnership going forward with after 2000 is there any kind of because right now they don't pay electricity they don't pay cleaning nope they don't pay a thing correct um they just paid for the cost of the addition onto it um but they like the the facility and they have uh use for you know the kids coming in and doing Story Time and things like that they have uh High usage on and that's what they' like to continue on with um and they've said that it's as far as a lease and making payments they don't know that that's in the C um they have their flagships of Maplewood and Roseville and that's where they put the most of their time and effort but um they still said this is a very good used when you say not in the cards it's it's not being you not have funding available now or in the near future so it's you know we provide a facility they'll provide us a library is that what you're saying um that's where we're at right now and plus the people we met with they weren't the decision makers and they don't know what they're still except expecting that they would have until at the end of this decade so they certainly haven't put money aside and they did shut down their Maplewood last one last year because they did some Renovations and updates and the next one will be um um I think Roseville some money they're going to put into that so and this isn't even in the cards right now and you mentioned Tim and you agreed that you can massage some of these I I don't know exactly what that means but I believe cuz one of the ones I was reading here it says you know for other Minnesota Legislature use for T of time they could use the facility so what would that look like what what is that what we don't know what that means that's I'm just saying want to have a meeting there that's what came out or what else they going to use it for there everything is is so broad here on this stuff but that's one that grabbed my eye it's from time to time they can use the facility for what they deem fit so that's something where we have to understand and too y so that's why I suggest that we probably have another Workshop just to go through that and put our concerns down and uh I would think that would be one that legal should probably be in attendance um as well as I don't know if there's an expert in the field that could help guide us and direct us but uh at least help form us to to what that could look like because there might be some deal breakers on there to your point so um are there any time deadlines that we should be aware of I mean and I I know that we might not know the answer to that question but um are there any hurdles or time deadlines that are are coming um to help us plan on how to make these decisions to give us some goal posts so the requirements are that I believe this process they give you 5 years um but a lot of these steps take a long time um the planning aspect the laying out of the architecture um you know then bringing that all together turning it into deed them going through it all then us going out to bid for contractors as we move forward um it's all a very um long time span that it takes to do all these things so and we're at the point now that uh we we either need to start spending money to make this moving forward or we need to decide if this isn't going to happen so that's why and this is good to have this meeting and get to know exactly what information that I can get back to you um so we can move forward with that um can you speak more to that deadline that has not been uh Line in the Sand it is just the time process it takes for all this but it sure sounds like uh people who did get bonding money have turned in their information by now um they're further along in the process so deed has just been questioning you know where are you at what uh do you have the information for us yet or where are we at in that process so us as a as new members here new brand new mayor that type of thing when it comes to it um you're asking for us what the next step is what is the role of this the city city manager for this process to keep it going it is it five that have to you know say things as far as to get things moving or is there a plan that we're going off of as far as um to continue to keep this ball rolling and getting all the information we need that type of thing how does that how does that look so this process started a while back like I said even the city manager before me they started the process the then they formed that Core Group um and Lisa and Tim were on that group and if they can expand more that's great but um it's finding out exactly what you wanted to do with it what uses are there and we kind of threw out ideas you know whether it would be helpful for Community Education um programs for potential the Vets or for kids after school uses um so it was just seeing what ideas could be thrown out there and might gain legs and traction by where are those where are those things that were that were out there uh we had that drawn up in that Core Group we'll have to pull that uh out but that's what I'm trying to get there's such a disconnect between us three and what's happening that's why I had requested a chronology of events who was involved why were they involved when did all this begin where did it begin that way we can grasp an idea of everything financially we're getting a lot of financials like council member Cole put out there um we're looking at financials we got to look Beyond this I mean yeah there's Revenue it could generate Revenue but where did all this let's begin and then let's start from there and figure out what are the needs and where are we so then we can make an educated decision on all right we are for or we are against or we we don't know yet what we're going to do with the community center but we were granted these dollars we know what w is presenting to us um are these individuals that have gone through the original study still believe what's being said um how did we get to the point that we got went to find uh get lobbyists had Tim and Lisa at the legislator advocating for the city of North St Paul all of this will help shed light not only to the current Council but also our community members I would really like to see that and I would like to see this continue into workshops because this is this is a desired and expressed to not only the City community members businesses um brought to council we need to keep this going yes so the more information we can get the sooner the better we can continue this ball rolling and understand some of the history that should go out to in the newsletter whatever as far as you know the the groups and what happened beforehand because a lot of it is I think we just got to make sure it's still relevant yeah I mean and as far as who was involved in that Core group we knew that this process was was just starting and we knew that some people were not running again for the next Council so the only two obvious picks were the people that we knew still had you know the last half of their four years for at least this round of their election process um that they would be on it since we're were going to have new people coming in um and it was still just shooting ideas out to see what the needs are for the city um it was I get that but we asked for money so then it became when I asked Victoria Reinhardt you know when I called her up to see what kind of options you know when we were talking to her she goes well why would you ask for a grant before you had a plan so like she kind of chastised me a little bit to you know where is your plan and I said well we're we're working on it now and that's where she brought in a couple of those groups that may be may be a fit for that type of thing but it seems like the cart was before the horse a little bit maybe and I just knew that uh that uh coko was going to be moving on uh being that you know we weren't going to sell the property so we had to try and find out an idea of does this building still work um what are the needs of the community and uh it was just the group pulled together to look into that and you guys were involved before I I don't know if you guys had any more input on the coming together of that group and yeah I mean I think um wal kind of outlined it as as they were updating us on their feasibility study and who they've been talking to and um I think I think you know thinking about funding that's that is an important aspect of it and um the legislature was up and so yeah there probably could have been a lot more plans in place and I'll say that we had some direction from staff on what that would look like and so I wasn't going to go up and say you know whatever um I was going off of what um was provided to me yeah and when I got involved it was still at the exploratory stage we didn't there were a lot of good ideas out there whether or not it was you know for kids after school stuff or whatever programs um but nothing had been decided of for sure that I'm interested in this and we are willing to be partners with you to get into a long-term type lease thing we just we hadn't gotten to that point since I've been involved I know Food Shelf was one but I know they got their place now school I met with um this was a while back with um Christine it Christine yes you and you know she said they had enough space but if there was something available the people I've talked to so far as if there was something available they could use it so that's where we have to see where where people you know are going to lock in and be able to work with us and partner up I don't think we're going to have a hard time finding people to rent that facility in my early career I rented facilities in a university there are people that are going to going to come knocking on that door I'm not concerned about that I don't think the city should be even concerned about that people will knock on the door to utilize that space overall we need to figure out what are we going to do with this community center where did it all begin again I'm asking the for the chronology of everything let's I want full transparency where are we financially with this what is it costing us monthly what did it cost for the lobbyists what did what where are we with this and once we lay it all out we'll have it we'll be to decide but right now we're discussing well we think we're going to have some people we know we've talked to this people and we've talked to these people now they may not have the space for it what are we going to do with Community Center well it sounds like the library is part of that discussion um and that needs to be front of mind I think for us as we discuss this and it has been I think there's still uh disagreement on when that date what that dat date counts as um and I think that there's still yeah a lot of questions out there for sure um and there's a lot more information that we need to gather um and often times there are dedicated staff who do this um and that's because we didn't that's why I think Dr Waldren and and um uh wal was hired on to start to explore that um and so I think that's kind of where where we're at in terms of of the information there still needs to be a lot more information on the table totally agreed I don't know how much we spent on the lobbyist to be honest I don't remember at this point but we did invest it was a collective decision on behalf of the city council at the time that we would go forth and make that investment so it was a discussion um at some point and now we're to the point where we're getting some numbers back and some different things where we now it's our the council up here's turn to to make sure we're going the right direction yes and I can answer what was spent on lobbyist they were it was $36,000 um and we we've done some upgrades to the community center just for the sake that they had completely stopped working and we had to do things I mean spent $35,000 on just a patch to get the roof through last winter um the boilers had to be replaced cuz they failed so it it just needs a lot of work um I know that before utility costs for the building were anywhere from $80 to 90,000 a year um there were some of these costs that were gathered and can you talk a little bit about the electrical systems in the community center that's our fiber optics correct there's an it uh room over there that works as kind of a backbone we have uh the main uh Junction point if you will here at City Hall but that's there's a backup room down there for the fiber system that we have the backbone um we are also tied to that building through the um generator that's down there the generator is needed clearly for the public Orcs building because we are the people that respond when the emergency stuff happens power outages things like such so they that runs that building and the community center um so that would have to be moved back across the street I think those uh both would be sizable costs maybe a couple hundred thousand dollar to move those two units across there depending on what we do with the building um so we're tied to that building a bit and our in terms of our fiber optics like looking at that from even a financial standpoint where we are we looking at generating Revenue now on that fiber optic it generates Revenue it has a long way to go to pay itself off it was millions of dollars were spent on that um and I'm sorry I do not know the numbers off top of my head Dan is a $150,000 a year that we get off of Revenue off of that 25 more years to have I go to start was because I remember when it went around the area like 99 like the late '90s early 2000s where they tried to do fiber to the whole neighborhood okay cuz the backbone was put in for the whole entire city and it did it didn't pass so all that money was spent up front and it's been sitting there except for a few businesses I think I am 105 and I know we can't vote so I don't know how to ask this um and this goes back to something Brian said earlier um in in my opinion this is one of the the most well attended meetings we've had in a long time Brian you said we could have public comment uh did you get that okay from the city attorney on this if we didn't allow it uh obviously there's people with a lot of opinions like say I'm only one of five so I don't know how to bring up stuff in a workshop we can't vote on I'd appreciate guidance from anybody yeah it's just public input I mean it's important to you guys believe you something like that you have a specific amount of time is that it's normally the three minutes that you give to the when you open the public I mean if anybody like to speak go oh wait a minute let's start from the back car you're already standing you can name and address please I'm Carrie B I live at 2887 Lake Boulevard in North St Paul I too council member nordby was a little I'm a numbers person so when you know 80% 80% kept getting repeated I actually have wal's proposal on my phone and I was flip flipping through the pages so there were 22 different um labeled as business entities that were um surveyed um 14 of those are not for profits churches other you know 501c3 kind of people six are businesses one was coko they're not in town anymore of those businesses one business said no they did not support the community center like at all um one business said they would like the parking lot space would be great one business said they wanted a specific type of recreation space then there were two other um like one person that looked like he was an individual Alliance club person and a Condominium Association so out of those 22 of I think 14 not for profits of course they're going to want to use a free space like I would love to use a free space for my little nonprofit that I'm involved with but I think that it's to and even our world representative said that was his sort of his gut reaction that people were in favor of it and I think that's part of understanding where those numbers come from and we don't have a huge big business community in North St Paul we're not like other other suburbs where we've got you know we do have Target Target wasn't on the list we've got you know the medical clinic not on the list some other bigger businesses you know the flex what's it called reflex medical you know they're not on the list so there are some other businesses that just you know if we're going to talk about businesses in favor of it then maybe we do want to do a more extensive thing and yes I would love to have some more Community meetings I mean I was at the other community meeting where there was you know 35 people but it was half kids and um there were a couple of really really vocal almost I wrote down on my paper loud people that um and I I don't want just the loudest voices to be heard but how can we in a town with no more newspaper you know our Facebook group doesn't allow any political discussions how do we get people involved and to let you know what they think that's hard so anyway thank you for this time thank you thank you um next who wants to go ahead name and address how then good afternoon my name is Tom Armitage I live in North St Paul 2584 Swan Avenue and I've been in the community for 21 years happy to have been here and happy to have raised my family here I'm here representing Ashland Productions Inc it's a nonprofit you might be aware of it just a mile and a half down the road we operate out of the uh Maplewood Community Center we're in year eight of a 10year lease now normally two years would be plenty of time but if you're looking for a theater that's a more difficult entity to get after so yeah we're very actively looking I can't answer all the questions you guys brought up there's a whole lot of stuff you all need to do but I can offer uh one suggestion please consider Ashland as a candidate for occupying this facility I think that we would make a wonderful anchor uh we're not asking to have exclusive rights to the building and yes we are a nonprofit but we pay we pay rent and so I think that you know what we could do is not only bringing to the city of North St Paul a meaningful art focused entity and this this is a theater that's child focused youth focused it is the most accepting environment I've ever been in from A diversity perspective whether you're talking about color sexual orientation this is a welcoming environment I think Ashlin would be a jewel for North St Paul we would love to work with you we think we have a lot to offer not just in terms of artistic contributions to the community but financially we can work with you guys um I know that there are going to be other people council member sh you said people are going to come out of the woodwork there are going to be people who want to use that facility Ashlin Productions is one of them and we're ready to talk and appreciate your time thank you thank you next welcome I'm Jerry lampia at 2097 Charles Street north um I just think it's it's too expensive you know I mean you I don't know if you have to look at or if you have to spend all the time to you know consider what to do when the numbers kind of speak for themselves you know you don't you know it it considering it's going to be a million dollars for the first year Well add cost of living to that for 37 and a half years by the time you're at the end of that everyone in the whole city is going to be paying for it you know I mean uh the only viable solution maybe if you can get you know people like Ashlin or or other businesses to commit to 37 and A2 years just as the city would be willing to commit to se 37 and a half years maybe that would be an option but you'd have to have it in writing legal you know if they back out early they have to pay you know whatever they're going to pay to the end just like we would you know what I mean if it's going to be that kind of thing that could work but I I bet you you wouldn't get anyone to bite on it because it's just too you know it's it's that's the kind of commitment you're talking about it's it's a big deal so you know that that's my two cents I guess thank you thank you comment I know I was just up there would you mind 15 seconds go ahead so the last gentlemen um he said you're looking for people it would make sense because you got to run the place for 37 a half years you got to look for somebody who's got staying power ashlin's 25 years old this year we are as strong as we have ever been a long-term lease long-term usage of that Center that does not deter us at all thank you thank you Lan welcome haven't seen you here in a while welcome it's just wonderful to be here here so I came here thinking I probably would hear some discussion about the plan for the actual use not the costs those were in the council packet so I guess what I'm looking for potentially or my suggestion would be put together a timeline and figure out here's when we need this information so we can start having real discussions because I agree people might come out of the woodwork that you never expected I don't know how you could possibly even know what to do next if you don't first get some of the information that you all say you need and I understand the turmoil over the past three years or so but I'm less interested in the history than in what are we going to do going forward because there are going to be costs and there'll be operational costs so I would just suggest you come up with a some kind of timeline for so that they know what you need and when you need it or when you're expecting it so that's all I have to say thank you thank you appreciate it don't be a stranger yes sir hello good sir afterno good afternoon Cameron muick 2596 4th Avenue East and I want to encourage you folks to not simply think about this from the dollar cost standpoint and what can it bring to the community I think that for example if we do something that loses us the library here that's going to be a tremendous deficit to this community and quite frankly I think as we have a population that is aging it's better to have some things available here in the city and not tell people who have a problem getting around that they have to go over to another city to use their Community Center it's obvious we can't do as much as a larger town can do but we can do some things and there may be a possibility for using the community center for other things to generate revenue for or offset cost for example possibly putting solar panels on the building to help you know defray the cost of electricity for the city and that type of thing so there may be other use that will help bring the dollar cost of operating the building down so thank you thank you thank you anyone else ref you can't a referendum correct you can't I mean not even next November no come on up sir I'm George sin I live at 2411 11th Avenue here in North St Paul 72 years I was around when they Bob Gaddy decided that we needed a community center and he plunked it down in the middle of the wrong place so I have avoided going in that building as much as possible because I my belief is it was built in the wrong place on a side note I had to go in there and ask the tenants to get their buses out of our parking lot at Franklin Center on more than one occasion and we've given up parking that is our private parking to tenants that the city brought into that building because there's not enough parking for a tenant in that building uh if the city's going to get it spend money to fix the building from what I saw and I'm short of memory on it but I believe you're looking at over a million dollars just to get some basic stuff done you had a 3 $50,000 loss 12 years ago you cannot get enough Revenue without charging every household in North St Paul a minimum of $100 to fund the community center and based on my experience in this town it's highly unlikely that you're going to get enough people to make use of it to keep it from being a an albatross the city of mampa wood is leas theirs out to the Y MCA and the other groups in order to defray the cost so are you going to be a landlord of a building that you can't fill and you've got grant money coming from the state of Minnesota from last session or this session or whatever you're willing to take on all of the tentacles that go with other government agencies money when you take it you guys got a lot to think about and I just I don't see the value in that building in that place for this town the size that it is we're at about 13,500 residents more or less so that translates to about 4,000 homes more or less and I don't know what businesses we're talked to you got six bars a Flor shop a couple of barber shops the pizza place another pizza place in the other shopping mall that's closing his doors in a building that is 98% vacant um City's got a lot of things to think about and put more money into that building would not be high on my list and I would vote against anybody that voted to spend more money on that building at this point without a better plan and from what I've heard tonight there isn't a better plan you guys are still tossing the balls up in the air trying to figure it out and I appreciate the juggling act but somewhere along the line somebody's got to put their foot down and say okay it's going to cost us $2 million to do this we can get $800,000 in revenue for a 5-year lease is that going to cut it for us if we can find that okay thank you thank you anyone else John excuse me John schal 2750 Chisum Avenue it's hard to follow what I just followed a very very very important presentation and just uh commenting on that on the theater group he just brought up the big problem with that uh bill building and if you ever drove by the mid Civic uh Center or whatever it is you would see the number of cars parked in that parking lot and that's the number one problem with our community center no parking I would vote no thank you thank youn one anybody else if not we'll continue on all right thank you everyone we Contin you have more conversation and we'll get the information together you guys looking for and bring it back up at a council meeting where people have the ability of stepping up and having their comments heard again so our next council meeting is next week first next Tuesday we okay it's a short time frame for getting out the agenda but we can get together what we can all right I do have one comment before we adjourned sure um there was an article in Sunday's star trib about community centers uh we're not the only ones facing this um there it it was not necessarily in depth but it talked about several communities that were investing in excess of $120,000 into a community center and other community centers that were just looking for a little help some communities that are evaluating the necessary needs so I appreciate everybody's attendance this obviously is a very passionate topic to um you know all the residents as well as the council um we're not in it alone a lot of the communities that were referenced in the article are going in front of the house and the senate for funding now we're ahead of that curve so we've got that benefit um but there are a lot of Aging community centers uh out there and so it's incumbent upon us to make the correct decision as to what we do with ours so we're not in it alone there's a lot of passion here um you know we can agree to disagree that's that's a wonderful thing um so uh with that Jonathan I want to thank you again for for hanging with us as long as you have um and I'm done anybody else have any last comments I thank everybody out here for coming yes everyone that has emailed all of us has taken their time to um tell us how you feel about it um I know I've emailed several of those individuals back indicating to them that we are going to have this meeting to come to these meetings so I appreciate every one of you out here attending this yes I same and just understand we're trying to get all the information out we can so be able to everybody see what's happening and just understand it because it is a big decision it's a big commitment big decision and as our community you know our size it's it's very important so I appreciate everybody attending tonight and thank you if nothing else I'll call to adjourn the meeting so move so move council member Cole second second council member Wong all those in favor say I I hi thanks everyone thank you