As an expert transcriptionist, I have reviewed the context, speaker names, and specific titles from the White Bear Lake City Council meeting. Please find the formatted transcript below: [4:12] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** This is so much better. [4:21] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** All right, we're going to call the meeting to order here. Will the Clerk please note those in attendance? Oh, it will be noted. Will you please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Two, approval of the minutes. I trust everyone's had a chance to read the minutes of the regular City Council meeting on September 12, 2023. If so, I'd entertain a motion to approve the minutes. Do I have a second? It’s like I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? Minutes are approved. Item three, adoption of the agenda. We have one correction, I believe we're going to move item 8C to... [5:09] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** ...item new item 5C, and other than that, are there any amendments to the agenda? Seeing none, I’d entertain a motion to adopt the agenda. I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? Motion carries. We have an agenda item four, consent agenda. I’d entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda. Second? I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? Motion carries, the consent agenda is adopted. Item five, a Firefighter Appreciation Month Proclamation and swearing-in of firefighters. So, I have the great privilege to read a proclamation celebrating Firefighter Month, and I'll do that now. Whereas Fire Prevention Month is... [5:56] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** ...recognized each year in October to raise fire safety awareness, to educate families, students, and communities across the United States. Whereas we remember past firefighters who have lost their lives while serving their communities, to express gratitude to those who have served in this line of work, and to show support and appreciation for those who presently serve. Whereas regardless of the language a firefighter speaks or the country in which he or she works and resides, all firefighters fight against the same enemy: fire. Whereas firefighters follow a long line of tradition and honor that inspires them to help colleagues, neighbors, and strangers alike. Whereas at a moment's notice, firefighters are quick to respond to uncertain situations to mitigate... [6:44] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** ...danger and combat the threat of destruction of fire in order to protect individuals, families, and the economic being of our community. Whereas the demands of firefighters are accompanied by both personal and physical tolls that all firefighters knowingly accept while risking their lives to protect the lives of others. Now, therefore, be it resolved that I, Dan Louismet, Mayor of the city of White Bear Lake, Minnesota, do hereby proclaim October of 2023 as Firefighter Appreciation Month and encourage all citizens to show support and appreciation to our firefighters who protect our lives and properties so diligently throughout the year and by remembering past firefighters who dedicated their lives to preserve our safety. [7:33] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** All right, and with that, I will extend my thanks to all of our guests joining us here today for all of your dedicated service to our community. And I believe we have the great honor of swearing in a few new firefighters tonight. So, I believe Chief, if you want to proceed please. [7:52] **Fire Chief Peterson:** Mayor Louismet, members of Council, thank you for having us. I have the privilege of introducing four new firefighters that we brought on board this year. So I'm going to go through each one of them; they'll come up to the front room as I introduce them. We'll start with—all of them are firefighter paramedics—we'll start with Greg Wheelock. He has 14 years... [8:18] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...of experience. Started as a combat Army medic, he worked at Pleasant Hill Fire in Iowa, then went out to Lockwood Rural in Montana, and Ames, Iowa, and Allina. And his girlfriend Katie is here, Katie Panning is here to help recognize him tonight. The next one is Alex Weil. He has five years of experience, came from Sioux Falls, South Dakota. He currently lives out in Lake Elmo; he's on Lake Elmo Fire and he's been there since November of last year. Next firefighter is Ben Horner. He has 19 years of experience, started up north, worked at HCMC for 10 years, he was on Scandia Fire now for three years. His wife Taylor is here, six-month-old baby girl Scarlett is here, and brother-in-law... [9:04] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...Lucas is also here. And then last is Chris Dvorak. He has 12 years of experience; he started down in Louisiana and also worked for HCMC for 10 years. He's on Andover Fire for seven years. His wife Chessie is here, his daughters Mackenzie and Samantha, and son Trinity are also here. So this is our four new firefighters, we're very happy to have them. They all have a lot of experience. I've gotten a lot of compliments from our current staff like, "This is a really good class of people we hired." So here they are, we'll welcome them and we'll go ahead and with the swearing-in ceremony. Individually share your names after we start. So raise your right hand and... [9:50] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...repeat after me. I (Firefighters: I), state your name individually (Firefighters: Benjamin Horner, Chris Dvorak, Alex Weil, Greg Wheelock), do solemnly swear (Firefighters: Do solemnly swear), that I will support (Firefighters: That I will support), the Constitution of the United States (Firefighters: The Constitution of the United States), and the state of Minnesota (Firefighters: And the state of Minnesota), and will discharge (Firefighters: And will discharge), and will faithfully execute (Firefighters: And will faithfully execute), the duties devolving upon me (Firefighters: The duties devolving upon me), as a member of the fire department (Firefighters: As a member of the fire department), for the city of White Bear Lake (Firefighters: For the city of White Bear Lake), without fear or favor (Firefighters: Without fear or favor)... [10:36] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...to the best of my judgment and ability (Firefighters: To the best of my judgment and ability). Congratulations. [10:50] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** All right, at this time we'll invite friends and family up to pin them. [11:19] [Music plays during pinning ceremony] [11:26] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Thank you. [11:31] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Congratulations to all of you. Thank you. [11:47] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Thank you very much, congratulations. Thank you, congratulations. [12:08] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** All right, so yeah, let them all know they can go back to the South Station now and enjoy themselves a little bit. Um... [12:24] **Councilmember:** Another picture? [12:31] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** They're making the rounds. [12:39] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Yeah, come back. Okay, we're actually going to take a picture. There are some firefighters in the background; why don't you come on up and join and take a picture. [12:59] [Pause for photos] [13:16] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Okay. [13:28] **Fire Chief Peterson:** I'm not worthy. Absolutely. [13:41] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Thank you, guys. [13:49] [Background noise] [13:56] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** All right, so next we'll roll into the presentation, correct? All right. [14:02] **Fire Chief Peterson:** So, Mayor, members of Council, somebody's got a—there we go, thank you. All right, so I'm here tonight to give an update on the department. I was here earlier this year and I'm just going to go over things that have happened since then, kind of update as to where we're at with things as a department. So this is—I know all of you know this, but this is a reminder to anybody that's watching—so the service area that we cover is City of White Bear Lake, White Bear... [14:42] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...Township, Dellwood, Birchwood, Gem Lake. About 35 square miles, just over 40,000 people that we serve in that area. So it's a big service area, it's a lot of responsibility. Next slide. Our call volume: this is always something that people ask about and how we're doing. So that was our call volume over the last period of time there, with last year's volume ended at 5,283. This year we're about on pace, about the same call volume. And so there's a few factors that I've kind of figured out as to why. There were two people that were high volume users that are no longer with us, and so that's part of the reason why it's kind of plateaued a little bit. And the other piece is that we made the choice to not send our last... [15:30] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...ambulance out of our service area when there was a mutual aid request. And so that's made a difference, and that's where you see kind of that little bit of a plateau there. But we're on pace about the same for last year. Next slide. The split remains the same: it's about 80 percent medical calls, 20 percent fire calls. Last year we ended it was about 84 percent medical calls, so slightly higher, but we were always thinking about this range and this is a national trend for anybody that does both EMS service and fire service. So this is on course for what we expect. Go ahead. As far as mutual aid calls, this was one of the big things that we had discussed at our last update was, you know, our mutual aid calls as far as EMS goes, how many we provide versus how many we... [16:17] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...receive. Before it was about a six-to-one ratio; now it's about a five-to-one ratio. So it's remaining about the same. I would expect it would be higher if we're willing to send out our last ambulance. So that trend hasn't changed; it's remained the same. Go ahead. As far as fire mutual aid calls go, this is for reported structure fires. It's pretty balanced: we've given 20 and we've helped out 20 times; we've received help 16 times. So pretty balanced there. It’s been a little bit slower for fires; started off pretty busy but the latter part of the year it slowed down a bit. So go ahead. I always like to throw up what the five main types of medical calls are. So this is unconscious... [17:03] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...breathing problems, psychiatric, falls, and sick people. You can see how the pie chart splits out there; it's almost exactly the same as what we saw last year. So that again remains consistent within our industry. Go ahead. As far as our patient disposition, this is as far as transport goes and how many people do we actually treat, how many do we transport. So about 66 percent of the time we treat and transport people and you can see the split between the either we were canceled or they were evaluated and transported a different way. So this again is pretty normal for the industry; it's around 70 percent is kind of the norm, but it is very particular to each case and each person. So we're again within normal standards. Oops, go back one... [17:57] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...control one more, there you go. Okay right there, move forward, there you go. All right, so there was some turnover this year. So we lost three full-time firefighters to other departments. There's a lot of opportunity out there right now. When I started in this business it was hard to get a full-time job; now there are plenty of full-time jobs out there. So that is just a sign of the times we're in and, you know, for whatever reasons they decided to go to other agencies, which was a bummer for us, and then you know we had to backfill and we've had some openings because of that. But fortunately we're back up to what we were planned for now... [18:43] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...with these four, and so we are up to 16 currently. We also had four part-time employees leave. Again, one of them retired, Lieutenant Margaret Jansen retired, and then we had three part-time employees leave to get full-time jobs at other departments. So you can see the demand that's out there. We're fortunate to have a lot of good people, but when we have a lot of good people, others are seeking them, and if there's an opportunity they're going to go ahead and take that. As far as our current staffing goes, we have 16 full-time firefighter paramedics, which is great; it's the most we've ever had. So we very much appreciate that. The part-time employees, we have 21 employees currently for the part-time staff and... [19:28] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...the reason it says "need" is because in order to fill another full shift, we need another 19 to consistently be able to fill another shift. So we have two crews currently; to fill the third crew we need that many more people in order to do that. So that is something—those numbers again have kind of remained about the same year to year. We add some people, other people move on for different reasons, and we kind of stay at that level. All right, so this is what I was already speaking to. We don't have that third crew available a lot of times both on weekdays, which is our busiest time, and weekends, which is a busy time, and then holidays are really tough. We're usually down to four people working to cruise... [20:14] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...the two, and that's just a nature of the industry. Our part-time staff are doing what we ask of them, but there isn't enough to cover it all. So they're able to kind of pick and choose what they want. As far as the future full-time staffing goes, that is really what we want to continue to do and I know that there's proposed to have a couple more hired for next year, which is great. I'm happy to see that. It will do all of these things: it'll help to improve our service level so we have proper coverage, it'll give us more of a consistent response, it'll create safer working conditions, reduce stress, reduce injuries, and will help to attract and retain employees. So the larger the staff we have... [21:02] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...the bigger the group there is, so then they don't feel like they're always under pressure because there's only a handful of them and they have to be mandated back to work because there isn't enough to meet the minimums. So that's what that's all about. Next slide. Um, so this is—I just want to get into some calls and this is a Fox 9 report, which I just wanted to show the video. It's just a short clip here, it'll be over soon, but this is a fire we had on Aspen Court back on May 14th. And when the crew arrived this is what they saw. This was taken by a neighbor's cell phone and that's how Fox 9 got a hold of it. And we arrived with a truck; we had a... [21:47] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...pump operator and then two people to attack this fire, which isn't much, right? So it’s so hot and so intense those flames. I went out there—I was in Hawaii when this took place, which was a great vacation, but was obviously a very sad event to come back to and hear about. But if you were to take away all the smoke and fire, that's about a 60-foot flame front that they encountered when they got there. Now unfortunately there was a victim right inside the door to the right of where the flames are. If you see where the vehicle is there, there's a little step and a railing you can kind of barely see it in that image. And she was a victim of the fire that was right in that door to the right. But a crew could only do so much at a time. Did a heck of a job... [22:33] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...of knocking this fire down, but it did delay us in our ability to go and get her. And when we first got there it was speculation that there might be somebody inside, and then as they're knocking the fire down they said, "Yeah, there's somebody in there." And so the crews with mutual aid from Maplewood were able to make entry and get her out and, unfortunately, she didn't survive her thermal injuries that took place during this fire. So that was a very unfortunate event, but it kind of highlights what we run into at times with not a lot of people that first show up. All right, next slide. This is another house fire we had, and the reason I put this up: there’s a... [23:20] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...picture on the left that doesn't look like a whole lot; the picture on the right shows the extent of the damage to this house. So this house was on Cottage Park Road, again early this spring. There were some oily rags that were left on the floor, burned through the floor down into the basement, up the stairwell there, and then burned the main beam in the house there—you can see where all the charring is. And because of that—it’s a very large structural beam—because of the damage, they had to raze the entire house. Kept the basement, but it was two weeks away from being completed and they had to raze the entire structure and then rebuild it. So it was very, very unfortunate, but just gives some perspective; it adds to what we're dealing with. All right, next. This is another house fire. So we always... [24:06] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...tell people: be careful with fireworks, soak them in water, don't put them in your trash. This was the night of the Fourth of July. This was a fire we helped out on down in Maplewood, but this is what it looked like when we first arrived. So it gives you some again some idea what we're dealing with. Next picture. This is up in Forest Lake; they had a significant fire. Crews did a great job of stopping this one. Again, the wind was out of the south and so this is the southern end of the building, and so as the wind's pushing, it wants to push the fire all the way through the building. So we were able to keep it basically just to that end unit there. Next. This is a modified trailer into a fishing house that blew up. So we got a call for an explosion in the area and a... [24:53] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...strong smell of natural gas, and then we started getting four or five calls of an explosion in an area. We thought, what the heck happened? So the owner where this happened didn't call right away, and finally one of our crews driving by saw what was going on and he finally fed up to, "Hey, my trailer blew up." So that was kind of interesting. Actually did damage to a neighboring house from the flying debris, which was a ways away, at least 100 feet away. All right, next picture. Storm damage. So we're familiar with this area, what happened with the storms. We had two significant storms that came through the area, a lot of damage throughout, a lot of call after call after call trying to help with power lines and trees on houses and all those... [25:40] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...things. So again, just another example. Next. Had a couple of Hazmat calls. We've used the Hazmat team more than any other department in Ramsey County since I've been here—it’s not a reflection on me, it's just stuff happens. So this was some pool chemicals that leaked and caused a heck of a bad smell and an ammonia leak inside the apartment building. So this is one of the Hazmat calls we went on. Go ahead. And then as far as water emergencies: the picture on the right is Bald Eagle Lake. So we've had three water emergency deaths this year. One of them was in Bald Eagle, another one was in a pond, and the third one was in White Bear Lake. So it's been a tough... [26:25] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...year as far as that goes. We're doing our darndest. But this event, we were actually helping another department by walking through the water for a missing child who was later found at home about two hours later. So that one was a good result, right? All right, next slide. So department training. We kind of look at what we have, we try to prepare as best as we can. We know obviously the water emergencies are a big deal. We've worked very closely with Ramsey County's Water Patrol and their Dive Team as well as Washington County's Dive Team, because we need a lot of resources when these types of events happen. So we have our rescue swimmer program—you can see three of the firefighters there in their gear in our boat out training the other night and also kind of... [27:12] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...familiarizing themselves with what Ramsey County has. Ramsey County's very happy to work with us, they're very complementary of working with us, and so we have a good relationship. We also do the usual firefighter training. Some of you have been in this building—it was a real fire and real smoke, but we do that annually. It’s a lot of fun. So, thank you. And then again, different skills. So we have some areas that don't have hydrants, so this is drafting operations. So we learn and practice moving water out of drop tanks. And then also we have a house—the picture on the left is a house that we have up in Bald Eagle that was donated to us to do training in. So that’s fake... [28:00] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...smoke there, and it's been great timing with our new people to be able to get them up to speed. As you heard, all of them have experience but kind of learning how we do things and our plan of attack and so on. Working with our crews has been a great opportunity. The picture in the middle is we always help with the Ramsey County Firefighter 1 and 2 program, so brand new firefighters, and so we're teaching them. They've done that for—I’ve been in the fire service now for 35 years—I trained on the same tower roof ladders when I was a rookie. So we've been doing it for a long time; we continue to do it. So they're doing ventilation ladder work here. Next. And our community outreach. I'm not going to read all these to you, but we do a lot of it throughout the year and it's a lot of fun. We get great... [28:47] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...feedback from the public and enjoy working with them, and we will continue to do that year after year. There's another slide, different events we've participated in. Next. So, and there's one last one: the Triad picture. So you see us all the time with little kids and City Manager Lindy Crawford said, "You know, you should get a picture with the old people because all you had was little kids." So it's a nice balance here, I thought that's a good idea. So they really enjoy that, learning about the ambulance, and they spent quite a bit of time talking with a crew there at the back of the rig. And so it's a good... [29:32] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...interaction. So that's what I have for you tonight and I'll be here for any questions you may have. Thank you. [29:41] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Thank you, Chief. Two quick questions. We're supposed to be taking delivery of a fire boat soon, right? Can you comment on the status of that? [29:51] **Fire Chief Peterson:** Yeah, so we were told november-ish is when they expect to deliver it to us. It seems they started building it in August, physically building it. They seem to be online. We're hopeful. I can tell you that as long as there isn't ice on the lake, we will have that boat in the water, even if they're bundled up being out there so we can practice on it. [30:11] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Good. Um, you showed a picture of downed trees during a storm. So other than maybe down power lines, what role do we play when it's just a storm and property damage? [30:20] **Fire Chief Peterson:** Yeah, so we will—if it's not involving power lines, we'll help to move some of the branches out of the way. But oftentimes people are completely unaware, and so we'll be there with our lights on and they'll just come walking by and they might walk right into the power lines. So we tape areas off and then talk with the neighbors. They want to know how long is it going to be before the power comes back on, and you know, "Who do I call and how do I get out of here?" So we get a lot of kind of random questions, but without that, Public Works is close after us to help clear roads and so on. We had one in particular, though, where it had a tree come down out of their yard, ripped the power lines down, took the mast—their power line, the main service feed—the mast off of their house, which was right... [31:07] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...next to their front door, and then it was tipped over and laying on the ground. And I was talking with the homeowners, they had no idea. I'm like, "Hey, look, make sure you shut your main breaker off on your house," because I've been to fires where in those situations where weird things happen in the electrical grid and then they start back-feeding and now the house is on fire and there's no way to shut the power off. And so on. It’s kind of a reassurance; they feel good about us being there. But we will go from area to area to area to help out. [31:42] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Thank you. Council, any questions for Chief Peterson? Councilmember Walsh. [31:52] **Councilmember Walsh:** Thank you. In the unit there's four new guys that currently work at other departments. How does that work? I mean, are they working two full-time jobs? Do they ever sleep, or is it part-time here and full-time there or vice versa? What is the mix? [32:09] **Fire Chief Peterson:** Sure. So Mayor, members of Council, this is their full-time job and then they work part-time or paid-on-call typically for all of the ones that you heard of tonight. They're not very busy departments in comparison to what we have. I don't know if Andover's far enough away—I don't know for sure whether or not they have a staffing program, but I know that Scandia does not. And so it's, you know, they have a pager coming from home, those types of things, and they have call percentages and stuff that they have to meet. But no, it isn't like they leave here and they go live there. [32:32] **Councilmember Walsh:** Okay, so this is their—for these—this is their full-time? [32:34] **Fire Chief Peterson:** Correct. But even with our... [32:37] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...part-time staff, it isn't uncommon for them to have—we have a few of them that have three or four part-time jobs because this is the career that they want to get into. So they work a lot of different places to get as much experience as they can so that when that full-time job offering comes available, they say, "Hey, look, I've done all these things." [32:54] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Councilmember Edberg. [32:57] **Councilmember Edberg:** Thank you, Mayor. Chief, questions. Uh, let me continue with that conversation about full-timers. So just kind of looking at our experience with retention or non-retention this past year, it seems as though the offering of full-time positions would be a source of retention on the upside, where it gives... [33:24] **Councilmember Edberg:** ...us greater ability to retain folks that we've already perhaps hired as part-time, our training in our systems—is that an accurate perception? Does the increase in the number of full-timers that we hire increase our ability to retain and get an ROI on our training? [33:43] **Fire Chief Peterson:** Mayor, members of Council, it does in the sense that the bigger that group is, because we have minimums—we're currently there are four firefighters—and so the more we have available, the less they have to. You know, somebody calls in sick or somebody's out on a personal leave because they just had a baby, we don't have—if we have a really small group, it's like, "Well, you're up. Okay, you're up. All right, you're up." So... [34:12] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...and then just having sick time leaves and vacation time, that bigger group allows that flexibility. And they talk to each other across the industry, you know, they know where each department is at and what the situations are. So yes, it does, because it does play a factor. [34:31] **Councilmember Edberg:** Okay, so a year ago we had a conversation about mutual aid. You've showed some data and so forth. You provided a couple of—here’s a couple of other things that have shifted in terms of the total number of calls. Have—what our firefighters say that they have—they are experiencing less stress because they are making fewer mutual aid calls? [34:58] **Councilmember Edberg:** How much of a difference has our decision—a policy to not send our last truck—what’s the impact of that? Is it sufficient? Is it—where do we need to be, what do we need to be thinking about that? [35:14] **Fire Chief Peterson:** Yeah, so I know that they appreciate it, they notice it. You know, sometimes we get called as far away as the far side of Roseville or New Brighton or Forest Lake, and then they kind of go, "Hey, we're not in our area, like, what are we doing?" The problem is, as I mentioned in our previous discussion, is the whole system is struggling across the state, and so there's no easy answer to that. And just like we would triage a higher... [35:45] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...priority call, and if we needed to give a call to somebody else, we would take the cardiac arrest before we take the sore thumb—that happens with our crews also. So we're getting called farther away and sometimes the calls are not very critical, and so they kind of go, "Hey, what are we doing here?" But we can't be both part of the system and not part of the system when it's convenient for us. You know, we have to be a good player and be there. [36:13] **Councilmember Edberg:** Are you satisfied that we are proportionately part of the system? I mean, the medical given versus received is still, I think you said, five or six to one. That strikes me as not... [36:31] **Councilmember Edberg:** ...proportionately engaged. We are disproportionately engaged in giving and being part of somebody else's solution. Where do we go with that, or am I being a complete obnoxious individual for saying, "Hey, it's not cool that we are sending six to one?" [36:52] **Fire Chief Peterson:** I agree with your consensus. What I can tell you is it's the norm across the industry. And so it is—we can't fix what is going on throughout the system. We could refuse to go more, but I don't know how that would play out. I don't think it would play out well. So there's no easy answer. The problem is... [37:17] **Fire Chief Peterson:** ...easy to identify, but there's no easy answer to fix it. [37:21] **Councilmember Edberg:** Last question. Are we—so the last time you were here we had a conversation around what is the nature of the enterprises that are making the calls. Are they the for-profits? Are they other community-based enterprises? What’s how’s that breaking down these days? And has that shifted at all? Because my recollection of our last conversation is that a disproportionate number of those requests for service are coming from for-profit enterprises that are theoretically supposed to be meeting needs and responding to markets... [38:03] **Councilmember Edberg:** ...and I don't know that that's the case. [38:06] **Fire Chief Peterson:** They are technically non-profits. [38:10] **Councilmember Edberg:** Okay. [38:10] **Fire Chief Peterson:** Technically, yes. Um, but yes, that is the majority of the calls we're covering, is that other city-based but private-based agencies who are contracted by the communities that they serve and they have a service territory that they're inadequately serving. [38:29] **Councilmember Edberg:** That is correct. Got it. Thank you. [38:32] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Councilmember Jones. [38:34] **Councilmember Jones:** Thank you, Mr. Mayor. So following up on that conversation, and I'm going to put you on the spot—I really mean to, because I'm going to ask questions anyways—but it's like you don't have to have the numbers off, but on that one-to-six or six-to-one ratio, whatever it is, it's an ALS/BLS, it's a thousand dollars... [38:49] **Councilmember Jones:** ...that we're not seeing, and our taxpayers are paying for some other residence. [38:55] **Fire Chief Peterson:** And I want to say yes, that is happening. And Mayor, members of Council, yes, that is exactly what's happening. And you know, our reimbursement rates, because there's such a high proportion of Medicare and Medicaid patients—as you've heard already during the budget presentation—our return on that is oftentimes not very high because we have to accept whatever those rates are. They are not sustainable to the operation. [39:29] **Councilmember Jones:** I’m back, right. It's not White Bear Lake Fire Department's responsibility, or the City Manager's responsibility, to fix a non-profit or for-profit's problem, or another community that has contracted. I know you are, and I'm exactly very clear that we are subsidizing the emergency services of communities that surround us. Is that an unfair statement? [39:53] **Fire Chief Peterson:** It's fair in some—we cover—there's six entities that border us. I understand it's fair for some of them, yes. [40:02] **Councilmember Jones:** Thank you. I miss you. [40:04] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Any other questions for the Chief? Thank you very much, Chief. [40:10] **Fire Chief Peterson:** Thank you all, we really appreciate your continued support. Thank you. [40:16] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** All right, moving on to item 5C, resolution suspending SRO agreement with the White Bear Lake Schools. Ms. Crawford. [40:24] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** Mayor, members of the Council, I will kick this to Chief Hager, but I did want to note if anyone has been watching the news, you'll know that this has been ever-changing for the last several weeks. So the request, the recommendation that we have in your packet, is a resolution for you to suspend our contract with White Bear Lake Area Schools. We are changing that recommendation tonight. We're going to request that you table this item, not suspend the contract at this point, but table this to the October 10th City... [41:01] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** ...Council meeting. There's going to be more time, I think, for us to further evaluate as additional information comes back, and I would rather have this existing agreement in place should we be able to enter the schools. I don't know that yet, but should we be able to do that before October 10th, it will be on your agenda if you decide to table it at October 10th, and if we can pull it from that agenda and do not need to suspend it at all, that would be the best-case scenario. But I will kick it to Chief Hager for now. [41:35] **Police Chief Hager:** Sure. Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, we're asking that you consider adopting a resolution suspending the school resource officer program for this school year. [41:48] **Police Chief Hager:** We also ask that you give the City Manager's office and myself an opportunity to reinstate the agreement if the need arises. [41:56] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** Yeah, so that is what's in your packet. Chief is going to give you some background of why we're here tonight, but we're not requesting that anymore. So the packet was published before we had additional information. So Chief and I are now recommending that you table the item. [42:12] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** So that was the original request, yep. If you want to give them some background of kind of why we're even talking about this. [42:19] **Police Chief Hager:** All right. Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, as you know, we've always had a long, successful relationship with the White Bear Lake School District. We've always supported our officers to be in... [42:33] **Police Chief Hager:** ...school, and that's our SRO program. We've done that for the time that I've been here in the last 10 years and certainly far beyond that. We know that you've supported that, our officers being in the school. As of July 25th, you signed the last agreement for the school year of 2023-2024, and we appreciated that. Recent legislation, specifically Minnesota Statutes Chapter 121A, which governs the rights of students and responsibilities and behaviors of staff, has recently changed to include some provisions about when force can be used by employees of the school on their students, specifically program constraints... [43:19] **Police Chief Hager:** ...restrictions of movement of students. And in that process of changing that law, they added SROs, or school resource officers, into that language to say that that same restriction that they're stating about school staff now applies to officers who are contracted by the school for school events, either in or outside the school. Anything that the school contracts us to cover, which the Council likely knows that we cover a lot—certainly day-to-day operations at the school at two different schools, high schools as well as a couple middle schools, but also at any football games or any events after school as well. [44:04] **Police Chief Hager:** There's been many interpretations of this law. There's been interpretations of interpretations of interpretations done by the Minnesota Attorney General's Office, the Minnesota Peace Officers Association, Minnesota POST Board, as well as many unions around the area—one of the unions that covers our officers have all had their own interpretations of what it meant. And what we learned is that through those interpretations, we really feel like the law really serves as a barrier for our officers to successfully serve in the schools the way the law is written. The City Manager and I, after a lot of deliberation, decided to discontinue SRO services... [44:50] **Police Chief Hager:** ...earlier this month. We think it's really critical that we keep our cops in school, although at the same time we're really concerned that we're setting our officers up for failure by putting them in school and subjecting certainly the city, if not the officers themselves, to some real liability. During the time that we have suspended our services, we also promised and made the commitment that we were going to pay as much attention to the schools as possible during our routine patrol. Our two SROs that were in school are on the street now, and they do everything they can to try to get to the school as much as they can as much as the call load allows. We also made a commitment to continue to staff the football games on our own dime, or on the... [45:36] **Police Chief Hager:** ...city's overtime pay, because doing otherwise—allowing the school district to pay us for that—would mean then we fall into that category again where we fall into the SRO league, if you will, or category. We think that we would like to formally, when it comes time, suspend this contract for the 2023-2024, but we also are asking that we have the ability—the City Manager's office and myself have the ability to reinstate that if facts on the ground, if you will, change, which we are really hoping and possibly anticipating that they will. So we've been in contact and we remain to be in contact with all... [46:22] **Police Chief Hager:** ...the stakeholders involved, including people from the school district, the POST Board, the Attorney General's Office, MPPOA (Minnesota Peace Officers Association), as well as all my counterparts in Ramsey County, at least the other chiefs of police. We've been in constant communication with all those groups to kind of decide what the collective best decision here is, and we remain hopeful that this decision will—the stakeholders will make a good decision in this way—as well as the League of Minnesota Cities. Those are other organizations that we're relying on their opinion just to add to that. [47:04] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** Thank you, Chief. So what has changed since the packet was... [47:09] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** ...published is that the Attorney General's Office came out with yet another opinion that is somewhat set in stone until it is challenged by the court of law. Now, we are still waiting for another interpretation of the Attorney General's statement or opinion, so that is why we are recommending that you table it right now. We think we're close, but we just don't have enough right now for us to be back in or for you to suspend it. So I will continue to keep everyone posted. We want to be in the schools, our officers want to be in the schools, the school district wants us there, and so we want to be back as soon as possible. But right now we just can't be there. So, Chief and I can stand for... [47:56] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** ...questions if you have any. [47:58] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Yeah, so Chief or Ms. Crawford, I just want to make sure I have this straight in my head in layman's terms. So the legislature passed, at best, an ambiguous law that one reasonable interpretation is it significantly hinders our officers' ability to do their job in the schools. Is that a fair characterization? [48:19] **Police Chief Hager:** Yeah, certainly the outcome was certainly that, yeah. [48:21] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** And one of those ways that it impairs their ability to do their job is that if they need to take action which, before this law, would have been reasonable and within the scope of their duties, exposes both the city and then potentially personally to very real civil exposure. Do I have that correct? [48:38] **Police Chief Hager:** Yes, sir. [48:39] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** So now we're all sitting as a municipality and as a school district, everyone who agrees we want the officers in the schools, and now we're sitting here stuck not being able to provide this resource based on a bad law that the legislature passed. [48:54] **Police Chief Hager:** Certainly a law that doesn't do us any favors. [48:56] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Appreciate that. Council, any other questions or comments on this? Councilmember Edberg. [49:03] **Councilmember Edberg:** Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Um, so I'm just trying to understand the formal status of our contract. We entered a contract, we suspended a contract... there was a recommendation that we're not going to deal with, but what—so we're going to table something. What's the status of that contract and the nature of our legal obligations until... [49:28] **Councilmember Edberg:** ...further action? And do we have the authority to suspend a contract that we have voluntarily entered? [49:36] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Well, I'll defer to our City Attorney. My understanding is that the contract term—Lindy, correct me if I'm wrong—calls for a 60-day notice provision, but that is prior to termination. Is that right, Lindy? [50:04] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** Prior to termination. We're not looking to terminate. [50:06] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Right. And so since you haven't terminated and you're suspending, you're probably in some kind of a gray area. But my understanding is that the school district is satisfied with how the city is providing service, notwithstanding that this wasn't the... [50:14] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** ...intention of the parties at the time they entered into the contract. So while we may have a contract, they're not seeking to enforce the contract; they're understanding that we have this ambiguous, gray conversation. And so for the moment, this idea of suspending the contract is mutually acceptable and we can hang in that space for a while yet, ideally until some greater resolution. [50:50] **Councilmember Edberg:** Am I understanding that status correctly? [50:54] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** Mayor, Councilman Edberg, you are, and it is within my job duties—I do have that authority to act, and the Chief and I have acted so. [50:58] **Councilmember Edberg:** Okay. Well, as a technical question, do we have anything in writing from the school district declaring that they won't sue... [51:01] **Councilmember Edberg:** ...us for breach of contract because we are in fact pulling them out? I just want to make sure that we're dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's. [51:11] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** Mayor, I do not have anything in writing. Our contract does not state any default. It says 60 days' notice to terminate. We have no intention of terminating the contract. [51:24] **Councilmember Edberg:** Okay. Well, if the City Attorney is satisfied that we are at best in a gray area, then I mean, I think it makes sense to move forward with tabling this so that we can give some additional powers-that-be time to maneuver and interpret—now further interpret—and hopefully the goal is to get the officers back in the schools. [51:44] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** So I would entertain a motion to table this indefinitely until the next Council meeting. I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on this? Seeing none, all those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? Motion carries; this is tabled until the next Council meeting. All right, moving on to item 6A, the Special Service District renewal for downtown Service District. And Ms. Shimek, are you taking this? [52:25] **Tracy Shimek (Community Development):** Yes. For the Downtown Service District Number One, this service was established in 1992. Currently, it is renewed every other year, and tonight we're here to request a levy for the years of 2024 and 2025. In the time that it's been enacted, it's been renewed a total of 15 times. This is a proactive request by the Special Service District by Main Street. They petitioned the owners of the property. They require a minimum of 25 signatures or 25 percent or more of the land area and either 25 percent or more of the net tax capacity or 25 percent or more of those... [53:11] **Tracy Shimek:** ...subject to the levy. For this year's petition, they've received signatures totaling 34 percent of the first category and 33 percent each of the respective two categories following that. On an annual basis, we collect roughly $45,000 on behalf of the Special Service District, which is then distributed to them upon request. The request this evening is maintaining that same level; they're not asking for an increase. The funds are used to carry out the activities of Main Street Inc., and Main Street represents property owners and businesses in the downtown area within the bounds of the Special Service District. The city acts as a... [53:56] **Tracy Shimek:** ...pass-through entity, collecting the funds and then dispersing them. Staff is recommending authorization of the 2024 and 2025 Special Service District levy as presented. I would note that this also requires a public hearing. And this evening, on behalf of Main Street, we have the Main Street President Lisa Beecroft and the Main Street Vice President Kristen Cranmer who are here to share a little more information about what Main Street does and stand for any questions Council may have of them. [54:39] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Thank you for coming, please. [54:43] **Lisa Beecroft:** Good evening, Mayor Louismet and Councilmembers. My name is Lisa Beecroft. Most of you probably know me from summer when I have a ponytail and I'm running around downtown White Bear Lake, but I own a business in downtown White Bear in the Avalon Mall, Beecroft Marketing and Events. Yes, I am the Market Fest Director, member of Explore White Bear and The Economic Development Corporation, and then I'm the current President of White Bear Lake Main Street. And I have Kristen here. [55:23] **Kristen Cranmer:** Hi, I'm Kristen Cranmer. I am the General Manager and Event Manager of Kellerman's Event Center and The Alchemist. I'm also Vice President this year of our downtown White Bear Lake Main Street, and I also sit with Lisa as well on Explore White Bear. [55:38] **Lisa Beecroft:** So we're here tonight just to give you a little bit more of an overview: what are we doing with these funds? So we collect roughly $45,000 per year from this levy, and we are grateful for that because it does allow us to help promote the downtown White Bear Lake area. So with Main Street, that is our governing body; that's the downtown business numbers that come together once a month and they plan and execute different events and projects for the beautification of downtown White Bear Lake. It's a vital part of both our economic development as well as tourism in the White Bear area, so we're really grateful to continue to have this opportunity. Just a few of the different activities that we've done in the last year include, in no specific order: we send out a mass email several times per month to 2,500 subscribers and 253 businesses downtown. We have the website... [56:16] **Lisa Beecroft:** ...downtown White Bear Lake, which features all of the businesses in that area and as well as different promotions that are happening. We man the two kiosks, those green kiosks that are on Washington Avenue at Third and Fourth Street. We have a reader board on Highway 61 that we sell to our business members so that once a week it can change and promote different businesses in the White Bear area, and we just reinvested with the city in that structure and refreshed it a little bit. We have numerous events throughout the year, including Galentine's Day, Spring Fling, Customer Appreciation Day, Fall Fest, Holiday Open, Small Business Saturday, Winterfest, and of course, Market Fest—personal favorite. We do different advertising campaigns through White Bear Press and other print advertisements... [57:01] **Lisa Beecroft:** ...we offer social media on Facebook, Instagram, and now TikTok. I will confess, even as a marketing person, that we bring on a young woman, McKenna, who does the TikTok-ing because I am not going on video to do that, and she does a great job with it. We will be relaunching our radio ads this year, so that's a good $8,000 investment of that $45,000 where we spend it on, I think it's like 165 radio spots over the holiday season, which brings people into the downtown White Bear area for all the good things we have going on. And then finally, Kristen and I are on the subcommittee of Outreach, which means we're also trying to engage the downtown business owners and managers and employees to be involved in downtown White Bear, because the more pride that they have in our downtown community, the... [57:47] **Lisa Beecroft:** ...more we are going to succeed overall as a district. Kristen, did you want anything else? [57:56] **Kristen Cranmer:** You covered it, Lisa. Yeah, when we do this together I just let you talk. No, and a big part of our outreach to the businesses this year, which I'm really thrilled with how it went, we didn't just send them the petition letter; we actually sent them an overview of all the different things that Lisa just described in more detail. As well as, Kristen assembled for every one of the property owners the petition with their personal numbers on it—in some cases there were many parcel numbers—but that made it easy for them to read about what this money was going to and then to send it back to us so that we had it ready to go and pass it on to Tracy for whatever processing that she does... [58:32] **Kristen Cranmer:** ...in her magic. But otherwise, you know, we're again we're trying to do all these efforts to make a really vibrant and robust downtown White Bear Lake, and with the passage of this, we're really appreciative and I think we can keep the promotions going. [58:49] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Thank you. Council, do we have any questions? Thank you very much. [59:01] **Lisa Beecroft:** Thank you. [59:04] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** So we do have the schedule for a public hearing, and we'll open it up at this time to anyone in the public that would like to speak to this issue. And I'll note that I do not have anyone that did sign up for this issue. Seeing none, I'll close the public hearing and bring it back to the Council. Council, what would we like to do? I have a motion. Do I have a second? Any further discussion on this? Seeing none, all those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? The motion carries, the resolution passes. Thank you. All right, item 6B, Special Service District renewal for the Birch Lake Improvement District. Ms. Kinswader, are you taking this? [59:58] **Kerri Kinswader (Finance):** I am. Good evening, Mayor and members of the Council. Tonight I'm here as a representative bringing the Birch Lake Improvement District assessment for your approval. So just as a history, the Birch Lake property owners created a petition in 2006 to form the Birch Lake Improvement District. The district's purpose is to finance and implement activities to improve and protect the quality of Birch Lake. The district held their annual meeting on August 16th to approve their 2024 budget. The district is asking the City Council to approve a Special Service District charge that was handled like a levy in the amount of $22,511 for certification in 2023 that will be collected on the 2024 property taxes for the properties within the improvement district. The annual charge for each property is $363.08. The city mailed the public notice to affected property owners with access to Birch Lake on September 6, 2023, notifying them of the proposed annual service... [1:00:52] **Kerri Kinswader:** ...charge and also published the public notice in the White Bear Press on September 13, 2023. Tonight we are hosting a public hearing for the proposed service charge levy. Staff recommends the Council approve the resolution certifying the service charge once the public hearing is complete. I just wanted to note that I requested a Birch Lake Improvement District representative attend the meeting to answer any questions. I do not believe we have one in the audience, so we can hold the public hearing but I don't know that we will be able to answer some of those questions. [1:01:31] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Okay, thank you. At this time we'll open it up to a public hearing. Anyone would like to speak to this issue, please step forward. If you can state your name and address for the record, I'd appreciate it. Thank you. [1:01:46] **Scott Samuelson:** Scott Samuelson. I have a property at 1291 Hedman Way in White Bear Lake. I tried to reach out to Steve, I believe his name is, and could not—I didn't get a response. I think Kerri gave me his phone number, he didn't respond. But I don't have no access to the lake. I don't even view the lake, but I'm getting assessed. And I didn't know the process of maybe getting my parcel taken off. I'm on the corner of 96 at Hedman Way, and basically there's no lake in front of me. So, what steps would I take? I guess I'm not getting a response from... [1:02:40] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** That's a good question. Anyone on City staff have an opinion or thought on that? Councilmember Jones. [1:02:46] **Councilmember Jones:** Mr. Samuelson, yeah, I spoke earlier and I think your best bet—I mean, your property ID is there, it's being assessed, it's going to happen. He may be able to stop it, but I directed him to VLAWMO (Vadnais Lake Area Water Management Organization) because the LID is part of VLAWMO. And the only reason I do—I think they might have the history and why your property ID would be on... you know, at least answer the why. Yes, we have it, you know, it's going to be assessed. We have that as facts, right? We don't have it as to why, and I think Phil Belfiori, the Executive Director of VLAWMO, would be able to help at least give you the "why" as far as what you're... you're close but not too close. I mean, and help resolve that with LID to get them removed. VLAWMO and the LID have a very good working relationship. [1:03:37] **Scott Samuelson:** Can I call in tomorrow and get the number from maybe Kerri? [1:03:41] **Councilmember Jones:** Yeah, yeah you could. Google it, VLAWMO—the acronym V-L-A-W-M-O—and you would find it. [1:03:49] **Kerri Kinswader:** Mayor, members of the Council, I will also reach out. He did call and ask about that assessment. I referred him to Steve LaLiberty, who is the President of the LID, and I had assumed his question would be answered. So since he was here tonight, I will also reach out to Steve LaLiberty tomorrow and see if I can get some confirmation to help him out. [1:04:14] **Scott Samuelson:** Sure. [1:04:15] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** No, I'm not unsympathetic to what your request is, I just don't think this is the body to help it, but it sounds like we can point you in the right direction and provide some City resources. Thank you. [1:04:26] **Scott Samuelson:** Thank you. [1:04:27] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Oh, is there anyone else that would like to speak to this issue? Seeing none, I'll close the public hearing and bring it back to the Council. Council, do we have questions for Ms. Kinswader? Or I'd entertain a motion to approve. Councilmember Edberg. [1:04:42] **Councilmember Edberg:** Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Um, so even before the exchange that we just had, I had some questions earlier as I reviewed the packet and I've reflected back on the number of entities that the city either provides as a... funds via pass-through or funds directly with City resources. So the pass-through would be, for example, Main Street and or LID. The other items... there are multi-jurisdictional bodies like the Lake Conservation District where we had assessment and there's a formula, etc., etc. And then there are other things like Market Fest that we finance directly out of City coffers. And the item that I've invited myself to have a conversation with Ms. Kinswader and Ms. Crawford about is the... standard: what are the things that we care about in extending our approval and how do we monitor financial performance to ensure that at least for the dollars that are flowing through and out of our coffers, that they are being managed in a way that passes the smell test. So I'm going to have that conversation. If there's any other member of the Council that's interested in sitting in on that conversation, feel free and let us know or let me know and I will try and accommodate that. But the item that was just raised to the podium gets to the issues of: so are there bylaws? Are there legal descriptions? Is there legal language that identifies who's in and who's out? That might not just address the "why"—I think that's helpful—but the "hmm, what is this? Who's responsible?" etc., might be yet another layer, a different layer of conversation that needs to be had. I support both of the actions that we're being asked to take tonight. I think it's... when members of the community take proactive and come to a shared agreement about how they want to finance it, I think that's a good thing. I'm just trying to look for the "and what happens if something goes haywire?" and "what's our obligation and assessment?" So that's my comment. [1:07:07] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Very good. I’d entertain a motion to approve this. [1:07:11] **Councilmember Walsh:** So moved. [1:07:12] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** I have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on this? Seeing none, all those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? Motion carries, resolution passes. All right, item 7A, second reading of an ordinance amending zoning regulations regarding tobacco and cannabis uses. Mr. Lindahl. [1:07:54] **Jason Lindahl (Planning):** Thank you, Mayor, members of the City Council. This is a repeat item here for the Council. So what staff will do is run through the presentations you've seen before just to kind of set the stage for our discussion and then open it up really to the discussion that the Council has requested to have continued from the last meeting. So just by way of reminder, this is a zoning ordinance text amendment application that was initiated by staff after direction from the City Council. It would create Tobacco Product Shop and Cannabis Retail uses and assign them to the B4 General Business District. By way of the process that got this item back to the Council here tonight, the Planning Commission reviewed this item and held the required public hearing back on July 27th. The first reading of this ordinance was presented to the Council back on August 8th. At that meeting, the Council requested that staff bring it back for a second reading on September 12th. And at the September 12th meeting, there was a lot of discussion by the Council, but you were unable to reach consensus on a particular action for that item. So you requested that staff bring it back to tonight's meeting. During the Council review of this particular item, we have received one set of comments from Solomon Hale, who is a business owner of the property at 2008 County Road E. To summarize—and I believe he is in the audience and here to answer any questions you may have for him—but to summarize his comments, he basically originally... his original comment was to be included... to have his property included to be eligible for a dispensary under the zoning standards. He then, at the second reading, clarified or expanded on his comments to request that the buffers that would separate these uses from schools be reduced to assist his site. During the second reading, staff presented two versions of the ordinance to address the cannabis and tobacco shops and, looking at those two... those two options are in your packet again for review. Looking at Option One, which is dated again at the top as 7/27/2023, it contains one definition for all cannabis-related businesses and limits them to the B4 District subject to the buffers again that we've seen in the map a few times now. It appears on this screen. Option Two was developed after some discussion and questions from the Planning Commission but prior to coming to the Council during the first reading. The second option creates separate definitions for "Cannabis Businesses," which can be thought of as full dispensaries, and then "Edible Cannabis Businesses," which would be limited to the sale of just edible and consumable related hemp products. Under this second version of the ordinance, Cannabis Businesses would remain, and full dispensaries would remain limited to the B4 District, but Edible Cannabis Businesses could be allowed in any commercial district as long as the business that is selling that product has a current tobacco license or an on-sale or off-sale liquor license. Under this second version of the ordinance, or under either version of the ordinance excuse me, the tobacco shop and buffering standards remain the same: that 1,000 feet for a school and 500 feet from a daycare, a residential treatment center, or a park. In the context of either ordinance, looking at how it affects tobacco shops, we've talked about the fact that White Bear Lake has six existing tobacco shops and they would become what's called "legal non-conforming," or commonly referred to as "grandfathered." Because the six tobacco shops that currently exist in town are either not zoned B4, or the one that is zoned B4 is within the buffer areas for the school districts or the schools or the other related uses. They would again be grandfathered; they'd be allowed to continue just as they are. They just couldn't expand, and they would remain subject to tobacco licensing standards. The low-potency hemp product sales would become permitted subject to the new zoning regulations, and full Cannabis Business retailers would remain prohibited under the current moratorium that lasts until January 1, 2025. The development of Option Two that's in your packet was the result of conversation at the Planning Commission, and it really... this slide looks at some of the questions that were asked by the Planning Commission that led to the development of that second option. And just to highlight for you kind of the last bullet point here: "Can existing tobacco shops sell cannabis or low-potency hemp products under either one of these options?" Option One would be no, only allowed in Cannabis Related Businesses, but Option Two would be yes—the alternative ordinance or Option Two would allow Edible Businesses with tobacco or on-sale or off-sale liquor licenses. Included again in your packet is a copy of the map that we looked at originally that includes the overall zoning for the community and the location of the six tobacco shops related to that zoning and the buffers. The takeaway here again, really, this shows the northern half of the city, and the takeaway from these two maps is at least for tobacco-related shops, none of them are located in the B4 zone and outside of the buffer standards. So again, you see the south side here again circled in white, the locations of the existing tobacco shops showing either again outside of that zone that we're considering B4 or inside the buffer areas. Since the last meeting, staff did prepare another map that again was included in your packet, and this looks at the liquor licenses and tobacco licenses within the community in relationship to the cannabis buffers. And so also included in your packet is a list of those sites and their addresses and their prospective licenses. Really from that list, you would find again the six tobacco shops that we mentioned, 31 restaurant or bar on-sale licenses, nine total off-sale or liquor store licenses—six of which also have a tobacco license—and then 15 total licenses related to uses related to, you know, gas or pharmacy or grocery stores; 13 of those would have tobacco and eight of those would have a 3.2 beer license. Similarly, you see those displayed on this map, and similarly, you can see those located now here on the south side of town. Since the packet was distributed, staff has also developed, working with Councilmember Edberg, another set of maps that have been just distributed to the Council here tonight. And they attempt to, I think, simplify some of the information that's already been presented by staff. The first map shows just the B4 zone within the city of White Bear Lake and the buffers from the school or other related uses as part of the tobacco or cannabis-related businesses buffers, and then the second one shows the B4 district overall and the total sites within the community. And I guess with that, I might defer to the City Manager or Councilmember Edberg to provide any kind of elaboration on their thinking related to those maps before we move on to the overall recommendation from staff, which remains the same from the last review of this ordinance. [1:17:15] **Councilmember Edberg:** Thank you, Mr. Lindahl. So, the purpose for me in asking for this information to be developed is to think about... we are going to be faced with an opportunity to identify and approve one or two or X number of potential dispensary locations at some point in time. The zoning decisions that we have before us that we have been under discussion create some land-use competition. I'm going to assert—I don't know this, but I'm going to assert—that somebody in this community, or more than one or two, are going to be interested in establishing a dispensary. And as we zone, we limit or identify which locations are eligible locations for hosting those sites. The item that says "B4 outside the cannabis business buffer" are the business locations that are in the B4 and that are outside of the buffer, and I count about a half-dozen or so. What that means is there's going to be a "land rush" when somebody... if we move forward with adopting our resolutions, Option Two is going to be a very limited number of places where it will be legal to establish that. And once we establish that, it's going to induce a tremendous amount of value in those locations that are eligible. If you look at the other map, which is the unbuffered map, substantially more possible locations. And I don't think we've had enough conversation about the role of buffering and the intent and the impact. So when we get into the conversation, I'm going to suggest that we actually not take up the resolution as it pertains to zoning of dispensaries, but that we defer that so that we can understand these perhaps unintended consequences that will result if we adopt them right now. [1:19:30] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Question on the map then. So Councilmember Edberg, these... these are lots in the B4 business district that are sort of available? Like, why am I looking at these? [1:19:42] **Councilmember Edberg:** That's my understanding, is that these... locations where businesses might be located that might conform to our definitions. [1:19:54] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Mr. Lindahl, can you help me with that? [1:19:59] **Jason Lindahl:** Mayor, members of the Council, this is every B4 parcel in city. It has nothing to do with the availability of those parcels. This is the Zone B4 just called out so you can see it more easily. But this is downtown, isn't it? Yep, we have some B4 in downtown. There's one little tiny dot that's... the one that does not have a buffer on it. This identifies all of the B4-zoned parcels in city limits; that's all that this calls out. [1:20:41] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** All right, so then again, what am I looking at here then? [1:20:45] **Jason Lindahl:** The other one shows the B4 zoning districts with the buffer. So with the buffer, the other B4 districts that you're in—the parcels you're not seeing on the buffer—are ineligible if the Council adopts the ordinance that has the buffer in it. [1:21:07] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Okay. It looks like there should be more overlap, but that's all right. Trust it, thank you. I appreciate Mr. Lindahl's and staff's development of the map. I don't... I think we should let them continue with their presentation and then when we get into discussion or choose to start taking some motions, we can come back and probe on this if there's interest. [1:21:30] **Jason Lindahl:** Very good. [1:21:32] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Councilmember Jones, did you have a question pertaining to the map itself? [1:21:36] **Councilmember Jones:** No, thank you. [1:21:38] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** All right, Mr. Lindahl, please proceed. [1:21:41] **Jason Lindahl:** Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, really staff would conclude the presentation by just stating our staff's recommendation remains the same from the last meeting, which would be to recommend that the Council adopts Option Two. And with that, I'd stand for questions. [1:22:10] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Okay, so Mr. Lindahl, so I'm looking at this B4 map outside of the Cannabis Business buffer, right? The one we're referring to. So I want to make sure I have this straight: this is what Option Two would allow for, but in addition to this, there would be grandfathered-in current tobacco shops that would also be allowed under the zoning code to sell the low-potency THC products for now? [1:22:39] **Jason Lindahl:** Mayor, members of the City Council, that's correct. [1:22:42] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Okay. So let's extend that then further based on what Option Two allows, fast forward to January 1st, 2025. What would that allow for by way of a dispensary? [1:22:55] **Jason Lindahl:** Mayor, members of the Council, dispensaries would be limited to the sites that you see on the B4 map that also says it's outside the buffer area. So this second map again with the limited number of B4 sites on it and the buffers shows the net sites that would be eligible for dispensaries come January 1st of 2025. [1:23:25] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Okay, so— [1:23:27] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** Go ahead, sorry. I would just want to add to that because I think the question may be: if a dispensary opened right now, what would happen? The dispensary cannot open right now; there is no grandfathering that could happen because it's not allowable by state law right now. [1:23:44] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Right, yeah. I think Mr. Lindahl did answer my question, I mean as of January 1 after our moratorium is expired. So Councilmember Edberg is correct that that would be the result if we passed as it sits today. And then as a matter of policy, then it comes down to: do we care if this is the limitation that we're placing on dispensaries come January 1st? Which is a fair debate, but I just want to make sure I'm properly teeing this up so that we're all on the same page. Okay, so then before we get too deep into that, the other question I have is, as Councilmember Edberg suggested: why don't we effectively "punt" on the dispensary discussion? If that were to happen, we're saying we could amend Option Two to narrow it to the tobacco shops, which we know we want to get passed tonight because we need to clean up that area of the zoning code and low-potency, but we're going to carve out and punt on the more significant stuff, the dispensary. Is that easily achievable by way of amendment? [1:24:43] **Jason Lindahl:** Mayor, members of the Council, yes. [1:25:00] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Okay, all right. Now it's clear in my head. The rest of the Council, what questions do we have? Councilmember Jones. [1:25:10] **Councilmember Jones:** Yeah, so on the map that we were given tonight... this is where I think I find we can agree to disagree, but I'm having a very difficult time separating—and again, if we punt on the conversation, I get that—but I'm going to make my point: dispensary of cannabis versus serving alcohol. We've got 12 locations of restaurant/bars, including one that just had a shooting I might add, right in a damn park that literally butts a park—like, I can throw a rock and hit it—and those are in the buffer zones. 12 of them. So tell me how much this makes sense that a dispensary that has a much higher qualification and security than a liquor store, let alone a bar restaurant, has this? It just seems really not fair, I guess, for the best word. And again, if we want to talk all day about, "Well, cannabis dispensary is different than an off-sale liquor store," okay, but they're still legal products within the state of Minnesota and we're required to sell two of them—or at least 1.894, maybe. I just find that very confusing and strange when—and I am going to speak for Mr. Hale here—is that I find that his property... and again Mr. Edberg, buffer all you want, that liquor store has been there for 30 years. I'd argue how many people have been living behind there? But that's always a question. On the south side it could be longer; it's an established liquor store that's been there for a while. Secondarily, on County Road E, to limit County Road E and that ability... it's the corridor we're trying to do everything we can to make that flexible. And so to limit certain areas to say, "Yeah, it's just B4"... B4, as you can see, is pretty skinny zoning, pretty specific, which I know the Planning Commission is going to be looking into in the future. Am I wrong interpreting that map? At least 12 locations, there may be some overlaps that are within the buffer zone that currently serve alcohol right now. [1:28:13] **Jason Lindahl:** Mayor, members of the Council, I think that's a fair interpretation. [1:28:15] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Okay. I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the things you said there. So I guess, is the point—because I'm trying to understand what your point is there in terms of... are you making a distinction between the low-dose Edibles and a dispensary or not? Because those other 12 locations that we're talking about, to me, that's the meat and potatoes of what's before us tonight is the low potency of the Edibles and then the tobacco location. And I would be amenable to saying: let's punt on the dispensaries because we've got 15 months of regulation that is still as yet written by a newly established state agency. I'll throw that out as maybe a starting point because I think that's a fundamental question that the Council needs to perhaps consider. Councilmember Edberg. [1:29:10] **Councilmember Edberg:** So, Mr. Mayor, I don't know if... let me speak affirmatively. I think staff and the Council have had good conversations about the tobacco zoning components, and I think there is an urgency with regard to Edibles that both of those suggest we ought to act tonight in support of. Though I prefer Option Two, where others sit I don't know that we know. But I think that is the action that we should take tonight, and then we let sit for 15 months or 12 months or some period under our control to better understand the role and impact of buffering, and whether that is a useful construct, how we think that really works in the world these days. I think there was a day when it may have had a different purpose or a different impact, and I'm not sure that that exists today. And I think from a standpoint of understanding the role of public policy in creating wealth... I'm talking about the unanticipated consequences of a very small number of parcels all of a sudden becoming very valuable. And when we talk about how small, I would actually—so Councilmember Engstrand noted that the square and the long skinny triangle in the southwest corner of Ward 5 is now apartment buildings. I suspect we would take those off of our list, making the number of options even fewer. And I think that's just something we all want to understand, think about, debate some more. So when you are ready, Mr. Mayor, I'd be happy to offer a motion, but I'm happy to be quiet while we discuss the rest of Option One versus Two. [1:31:30] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Sure. I don't know if we're quite there yet, but just one follow-up on that just so the Council knows where my head is on this. I understand where you're coming from on the unintended consequences—you make certain areas very valuable. To me, that's an afterthought because, one, that's not our intent. If it's the wishes of the Council to set, as a matter of policy, limited areas where we're going to allow dispensaries, then necessarily those few areas become more valuable, assuming there is a market and an appetite for entrepreneurs to want to put it in there. So I don't want to go as far as to say I couldn't care less, but that's a long afterthought to me, although I understand your point that will by definition make those more valuable if there is a market for proprietors that want to open up a dispensary. Anyone else have a thought? Councilmember Walsh. [1:32:15] **Councilmember Walsh:** Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Just maybe a question still on going backwards a little bit, but I'm trying to get this wrapped around my head. So I made a little chart for myself: if I start with three different products here—tobacco, edibles, and then retail/dispensary. So in this resolution tonight: tobacco, we're going to say Zone B4, but we're six current ones, most of them are getting grandfathered in. They're also getting grandfathered into the buffer, right? We have a buffer in this new ordinance in front of us, but they grandfather into the buffer so they're not affected. Is that right? [1:32:56] **Jason Lindahl:** Mayor, members of the Council, yes, all of them are grandfathered with regard to zoning and the buffer. They remain subject to the licensing standards. [1:33:07] **Councilmember Walsh:** Okay. Edibles, proposed in the second resolution, Option Two: any commercial district. We're not doing B4 for that one, we're opening that up a lot wider, limited though—you gotta have an alcohol or tobacco license already, which I like, I appreciate that. So you already gotta be in our system, you gotta have a tobacco license or an alcohol license, but you can be anywhere. On the number, we're not going to have a lot of control on the number; the state's not going to let us control that when we get to January 2025. The buffer, though—I don't understand the buffer in play here for edibles because this is a new product, new industry. So the buffer would be in play? [1:33:51] **Jason Lindahl:** Mayor, members of the Council, under Option Two and talking specifically about the edible products, the buffer is not applied to that use. It’s allowed in any commercial district as long as the business that’s selling it also has a tobacco or on-sale or off-sale liquor license. [1:34:10] **Councilmember Walsh:** You're right, the buffer is not there. Okay. The buffer remains in place for Tobacco Product Shops, but Option Two removes the buffer for edible sales in any commercial zone. Now, is that a policy decision we have control over, or is that just deferring to the state law? Do we have the ability to do a buffer for edibles today if we wanted to? [1:35:05] **Jason Lindahl:** I do not believe we are allowed for edible cannabinoids. [1:35:11] **Councilmember Walsh:** And I talked about this last meeting... you know, in my little head I'd love to separate edibles from drinkables. If this... that’s the real issue here: you know, these products are going to be in liquor stores and in bars, infused alcohol products. I see it really a difficult time trying to regulate that out with the edibles. So what I've come to... there really isn't anything different in front of us because there really isn't a lot of options. The edible thing has been taken out of our hands in many ways going forward. So that's edibles: any commercial district, gotta have a tobacco/alcohol license, state preempts the number, and buffer not applied. That leaves us with the retail dispensaries. We have said in this resolution, Option Two: B4. And I appreciate the logic and the reasons behind that as laid out in the memo—it’s a destination, it’s not a neighborhood location. We’ll put it in our regional business areas, which was B4. The number is to be determined; we're not deciding that tonight. The buffer is intact because the legislature specifically wrote that in as an option for cities and counties as a buffer and suggested these numbers. The last thing I'll say is... I don't know if we need to wait. I'm happy to wait, I guess, if everybody else wants to wait. I think I'm ready to vote for Option Two tonight based on the staff recommendation as is. I'm more interested in the policy discussions around the availability of cannabis in White Bear Lake than I am in the business decision or land-rush discussions. [1:40:17] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Councilmember Jones. [1:40:33] **Councilmember Jones:** I would almost be there. I mean, if we want to defer the cannabis, I'm assuming that is on page three of the draft, subdivision for Cannabis Business. It’s just those two points just get removed from what we would authorize this evening? [1:40:49] **Jason Lindahl:** Mayor, members of the Council, that is correct, and some retitling because of the effect of that, yes. You would be striking subdivision four that is on page three, and then you would be zoning Tobacco Product Shops and Edible Cannabinoids. [1:41:20] **Councilmember Jones:** So, what I will support is Option Two with removal to defer to another day. For those of you who know, I'm not going to be here after January 1st and I don't want to be part about talking about cannabis or pot anymore. But with that said, if the Council chooses to keep subdivision four, Cannabis Business, in there, I will vote against it unless there is a provision for the County Road E, Mr. Hale's location. I just think it's absolutely ridiculous that we have an operating off-sale liquor store there and we're not going to treat it the same. It’s just hypocritical. [1:42:19] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Councilmember Hughes. [1:42:24] **Councilmember Hughes:** For an edible business, don't we require them to have a license? A cannabinoid license? Why aren't we also requiring they have a current cannabinoid license underneath subdivision three? [1:43:57] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Well, we have that separate ordinance already adopted. That is a temporary license that we will have until 2025. This is a zoning regulation. It’s pretty often that zoning regulations cover just land use. Because this is in the zoning code, it's really just regulating the area where the business can be established, not necessarily permitting that use. [1:44:44] **Jason Lindahl:** Mayor, members of the Council, another way to look at it is the licensing standards for cannabis were already approved by the Council. So this regulation just addresses the zoning component, but it is implied that they need the cannabis license. [1:45:30] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Bottom line is, if you want to sell cannabinoids, you're still going to have to follow our ordinance which requires you to have a license. The fundamental question is: do we want to address dispensaries on a broader level? Would someone want to enter a motion to pass Option Two as is, or does someone want to bring a motion to pass Option Two as amended? [1:46:01] **Councilmember Edberg:** Mr. Mayor, I don't know if Mr. Hale wants to speak to this topic, but I'd at least—we've done this on other topics—he clearly has an interest. I leave it to your discretion. [1:46:12] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Mr. Hale, please. Why don't you come on up here, state your name and address for the record. [1:46:21] **Solomon Hale:** My address is 2008 County Road E East, White Bear Lake. I appreciate that you guys are working on this. I'm not asking for special treatment in this case, I'm just asking that if we're going to be allowed to have a low-dose THC product to be sold in the liquor stores, I'm just having a hard time understanding why not the full dispensary? We are a business that sells over-21, and a dispensary is even more secured. Why not be treated the same way that we treat liquor? That’s what I wanted to say. [1:47:32] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** So just to be clear, your intent is you would like to operate a dispensary? [1:47:37] **Solomon Hale:** Yes, because Option Two would allow me to sell cannabinoids, correct? But I've been working with the city before even the law passes and I said I'll pay my time and my money if the city needs information. I kept one open space for this reason for a year and a half. That’s how important it is to me. [1:47:50] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Understood. Okay, thank you. [1:48:01] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Well, my sense is that the dispensary discussion isn't ripe right now. The cannabinoids is a pressing matter that has to be addressed tonight. Personally, I would support Option Two as is. Admittedly there's some unintended consequences, but I have very real concerns as a matter of public policy as to how many dispensaries go in and where they can go. But having said all that, that decision doesn't need to be made tonight. We have a moratorium that buys us 15 months. Councilmember Jones, if I'm hearing you correctly, you would move for Option Two as amended? [1:49:15] **Councilmember Jones:** Yeah, motion for Option Two, removing subdivision four regarding cannabis retail and dispensaries. [1:49:28] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** I have a motion and a second on that. Any further discussion? [1:49:34] **Councilmember Edberg:** I think we are deferring so that we can have more conversation. Buying time allows us to experience what happens around us and think about that. [1:51:15] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** I think that’s a good point. All those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? Motion carries; the ordinance passes as amended. I would entertain a motion to pass the accompanying resolution. Motion and second? Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? Motion carries, resolution passes. Item 8A, County Road E Ramsey County Critical Corridor Grant. Ms. Shimek. [1:51:44] **Tracy Shimek:** Thank you, Mayor, members of Council. Tonight what you have before you is staff requesting that Council authorize the City Manager and Mayor to enter into a grant agreement with Ramsey County, accepting the $30,000 grant and also authorizing staff, in partnership with the cities of Vadnais Heights and Gem Lake, to put forth an RFP requesting professional services to create a branding, marketing, and placemaking strategy guide. [1:54:30] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Thank you, Ms. Shimek. Do we have questions, or I would entertain a motion to approve the resolution. I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? Motion carries. Item 8B, Otter Lake Road Cooperative Agreement. Mr. Kopke. [1:54:49] **Paul Kopke (City Engineer):** Thank you, Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. Tonight we have before you a cooperative agreement with Ramsey County to do right-of-way acquisition for the Otter Lake Road project. This has been in the city's dreams for quite some time to upgrade that roadway, to make a trail that connects at least this first segment between County Road 96 and Fourth Street. Staff would recommend that Council adopt the resolution approving the cooperative agreement. [1:57:56] **Councilmember Walsh:** Thank you. Acquisition from who? I assume it's the property owners along that stretch. [1:58:15] **Paul Kopke:** Mayor, members of the Council, right-of-way is used as a broad term. Most of this is actually temporary easement. Along the corridor, there's 43 properties. There is one permanent easement that we would seek at the southwest corner of Otter Lake Road and Fourth Street to soften that corner for a pedestrian ramp. [2:00:16] **Councilmember Jones:** Mr. Kopke, define... it says "Road Improvements." What is the County planning to do for road improvements? [2:01:02] **Paul Kopke:** Mayor, members of the Council, the total project includes complete reconstruction of the roadway. It would remain a two-lane roadway, the lanes would narrow up, and we would add the trail on the lakeside. We will meet or exceed any current standards for stormwater treatment and increase protection of Birch Lake from what it is today. [2:03:10] **Councilmember Jones:** I’ll move approval of the resolution. [2:03:16] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** I have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). Any opposed? Motion carries. Mr. Kopke, you had some follow-up? [2:03:30] **Paul Kopke:** Just to note, we have been talking with the County to potentially take back this portion of Otter Lake Road in exchange for the County taking back White Bear Parkway. It would give the city the ability to restrict truck traffic on Otter Lake Road, which is more appropriate given it is a residential area. [2:08:19] **City Manager Lindy Crawford:** Thank you, Mayor. Just a few events: the Fire Department has an open house on Tuesday, October 3rd, and Homecoming is Friday, October 6th. And lastly, it is Human Resources Professionals Day, so a big thank you to Rick and Sandy for their hard work. [2:09:44] **Mayor Dan Louismet:** Before we adjourn, I see a number of high school students in the audience. Are you in Cameron Malm's American Government class? 20 years ago, I sat right where you were sitting with the same assignment. I hope you learned a thing or two tonight. With that, I would entertain a motion to adjourn. All those in favor say aye. (Council: Aye). We are adjourned. Thank you.