[00:00:00] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: I didn't notice this. Good evening everyone. It's 5:30 and I will call our work session to order. So members of the public are welcome to attend in person. Uh they may also choose to watch the meeting at burnsvillemn.gov/meetings or comcast channel 16 or 859. The public can also participate through Zoom by joining us at zoom.us/join and more information is available on our meetings web page and in the council agenda packet. So this is a work session. Our work sessions are very informal and uh we go directly to the items on the agenda. So the first item on the agenda this evening is the elections preview and Macheal Collins, our city clerk, is presenting. Mrs. Collins. [00:01:15] Macheal Collins: Thank you. Madame Mayor, city council. um go over some election stuff that we expect to happen this year. One of the goals of the leadership team work plan is to deliver secure elections with reliable operations and with a focus on proactive engagement and providing a positive voter experience. What's new this year? There has been some recent legislation that requires candidates to show a proof of residency. This would be similar to like your registration on election day. Um, also you're required to provide a phonetic spelling of your name when filing for office. However, if your name is something like Tom Johnson, you can elect to what they would call a default pronunciation. And that is so a default pronunciation is— [00:02:10] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: What? [00:02:11] Macheal Collins: Whatever—that that whatever the default is. We don't do the default. [00:02:15] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. [00:02:16] Macheal Collins: But there uh um I I think it would be maybe what would be considered most common pronunciation, but not everybody's sometimes names are spelled the same and sound different. [00:02:25] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. [00:02:26] Macheal Collins: Minnesota has had uh absentee in-person direct balloting, but this year technically we have uh early real early voting legislation. It was adopted in 2023. It goes into effect for this primary in August. And uh however, current technology does not let yet let us use the poll pads for this, but I'm told we're going to have a much simpler form for voters to fill out so that they can attest to their residency and sign the off. In 2022, we had um absentee ballots had to be returned by 300 PM. Then they changed the legislation to 8:00 PM in 2024, and I think they thought it went a little too far, so now they've kind of went back to the middle, and now starting this year, you'll have to return your ballots by 5:00 p.m. Um the other we have a new voting location this year in Burnsville, and this is because the Burnhaven Library is under construction. So, we've moved to Resurrection Church, which is just south of where the library is there on Burn Haven Drive. And we're really excited about our new voting equipment. This is, uh, election system and software, uh, the DS300 tabulator and what's called an express vote, and that's an assisted voting device. We have sample uh I brought a example of those here in the chambers for you to look at if you want. All right. What's going to be on the ballot this year? This is the midterm. So we are going to have governor, lieutenant governor, attorney general, secretary of state, state auditor, US senator and US representative, state senators and state representatives, city council members, school board members, and judicial seats. The mayor and county commissioner run on the presidential election cycle, so they will not be on the ballot this year. [00:04:10] Council Member Vince Workman: ISD 194 is having a referendum— [00:04:12] Macheal Collins: —on May 12th. This is a special election to fund uh some of their middle schools. [00:04:17] Council Member Vince Workman: Yeah. Yeah, I read it. [00:04:19] Macheal Collins: Um early voting is available right now uh at the Lakeville District School District office and um because we're not allowed to have meetings between 6:00 and 8:00 p.m. our May 12th work session, you noticed we have scheduled that back to start at 400 p.m. that day. Candidate filing. Uh we have two council member positions open this year. Council member Kealey and Council Member Workman. The filing period is from May 19th to June 2nd. And this is specific to cities with a possible primary. Uh the filing period is different if it's if you're in a city that doesn't have a possible city primary. The filing forms can be picked up here at city hall and the fee is $20. All candidates will be invited to a briefing on June 3rd. Um the last day to withdraw is June 4th. After that time, your name cannot be removed from the primary ballot. Um, election accuracy and security. The office of the secretary of state um does have many security measures. Some examples are that they certify our election equipment. Uh and they also maintain the state voter rec uh registr state voter registration system records to ensure that deceased voters are removed or that absentee voters are marked as voted so that they can't vote again on election day. We adhere to the Dakota County's chain of custody plan. Um, we do security training for chair election judges with like tips on de deescalation, when to call city hall, and when to call 911. We partner with the Burnsville Police Department so that they know where all of our polling locations are. Um, things like whether or not uh a polling place allows guns on their premises. Um, and uh go over what-if scenarios. We do voting machine testing. This is every machine that gets programmed with a precinct specific security encrypted memory stick and then tested with a test deck that has known results to ensure that it counts every vote the way that it should including things like over votes or cross party votes. Uh then we test them all a second time with a backup just in case something happens to that file if it might be if we fear it might be tampered with or if it gets corrupted for some reason. We use the assisted de voting device to create some of the test decks so that we that we can ensure that all of its features are also working. [00:06:50] Council Member Dan Gustafson: And you will announce when you do the public accuracy test. [00:06:53] Macheal Collins: Yes, we that is published in the paper. We also communicate it um through social media and the Burnsville bulletin and those types of things. [00:07:01] Council Member Dan Gustafson: It's very interesting, but I found out that the two times I went, I'm the only one showing up for the public accuracy test. [00:07:07] Macheal Collins: There have been times that that we haven't had a lot of attendance, but actually in recent years, the attendance has been more. [00:07:13] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Oh, good. [00:07:14] Macheal Collins: Um, and we test we do this public accur accuracy test uh before every election. And this is when we demonstrate kind of how we test the machines. We use those test decks, create ballots with our assisted voting device, and then go through the whole process of ensuring that it's counting the votes correctly. And then after the election, we have a post-election review. Dakota County will select random precincts to perform hand recounts of certain races. And this is just a another precaution to make sure that everything is working the way it should. There are three ways that we can vote. There's number one, we can vote by mail, absentee ballots. We can also do the early absentee vote in person here at city hall or at any of the Dakota County service centers. Uh in-person voting on election day is from 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. at one of the 17 precincts here in Burnsville. And if you need a ballot or if you want to find your polling location, you can find that at minnesotavotes.gov. There's some different voter registration opt options for our residents. You can go online to that mnvotes.gov and and register online. You can also pre-register at city hall or by mail with a paper application. Um, there's an automatic registration when you're updating your driver's license if you pre present citizen affirming documentation. And voters can also register when they vote early or on election day um with the proper uh ID or or a voucher. voting early here in Burnsville. We are under construction, but we will be open for voting uh starting 46 days before an election. That's for the primary. That would be June 26th. Or you could think of it as seven Fridays before election day is going to be open. [00:09:02] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. [00:09:03] Macheal Collins: And then uh the early voting or direct balloting portion of it will start 18 days before the election. That's July 24th or three Fridays before election day. Curbside voting is available for those with mobility challenges both at city hall during the early voting and also at each precinct on election day. Uh folks can call, we have signs uh out here at city hall. We also have signs at every precinct that give the city hall mainline phone number and they can call that number and we will arrange for somebody to come out to the vehicle to help them if they can't make it in. That service is really really helpful for a lot of our um mobility challenged residents because I've heard how well they like that service. [00:09:47] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Yeah. [00:09:48] Macheal Collins: That service that— [00:09:49] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: —and there are times when when people can can get into a car but maybe can't make it down a hallway to vote in a school. [00:09:55] Macheal Collins: Yeah. We have a ballot dropbox here. This was implemented back in 2020. It provides an easy, safe way for Burnsville voters to deliver their ballots 24 hours a day. No need to come into city hall to drop off your ballot. It's similar to the utility bill dropbox that we have in our parking lot. It's a good option to get quickly get a ballot to city hall uh since you the ballots have to arrive by election day and some people may not get them in the mail in time to get delivered by election day. [00:10:24] Council Member Cara Schulz: Have you identified a location for the dropbox since this is not available? [00:10:29] Macheal Collins: Our city hall project team uh is working uh on the exact location. [00:10:33] Council Member Cara Schulz: Okay. [00:10:34] Macheal Collins: And but I'm not exactly sure where that's going to be. [00:10:36] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: And Gregg, there will be cameras. It will be like we have— [00:10:41] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: —you absolutely will have cameras and it will absolutely be secured to the concrete. [00:10:46] Macheal Collins: The reason I wanted to mention that specifically was that when we first started using the dropbox, people would call me and say, "How do you keep somebody from just—" [00:10:54] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Yeah. [00:10:55] Macheal Collins: "—taking it and and running off with it." Um and it is secured to the concrete and we do have video monitoring of it 24/7. Um the uh dropbox will be open on until election day at 5:00 pm. For our community engagement efforts, we do uh show we do have uh like a a tent at some of the community events like party on the plaza. We were at state of the city yesterday, public works open house, fire open house, those types of events. We also uh do scheduled presentations such as uh we'll go to the senior center and present or we can do we have done some school parent events at the school. We communicate through social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Um we have information tables set up at city hall and we also have a table at the library. We actually get very good feedback that a lot of the information we provide at the library is uh people take it and use it. And then of course we communicate through the Burnsville bulletin. Um we also do healthcare facility voting. We visit up to 10 facilities in Burnsville. Not all facilities need an in-person visit for every election. uh we coordinate that with the healthcare facility staff before each visit. In 2024, we had about 200 healthcare facility voters, but uh if all the beds are full and all of the voters wanted to vote, that could be up to 900. The healthcare facility staff that work there can vouch for the residents in their facility if they need it. a little bit about Burnsville election statistics. Uh we have approximately 40,000 registered voters. And now this number can go up and down as uh some voters come off the rolls because they haven't voted for four years or we have deceased voters come off the rolls and then right after an election we have a lot of new voters that move to town and now are registered. So it it varies between 38 to 42,000. In 20 um in 2024, the general election, we had 32,539 voters, which is approximately an 80% turnout. Of those 32,000, almost 15,000 of those voted before election day. And this is about 46% of those that voted voted before election day. I thought that was a significant because if you look at the trend 10 years before that we had 13% of our voters vote before election day. So that has changed significantly. [00:13:30] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Does that have anything to do with our demographics that we're an older community um and the median age? [00:13:37] Macheal Collins: I think that a lot of things have played a different part in why the rise in in early voting and some of it is demographics, the aging that that can contribute to it, but also the um the ease and use of of now we have the direct balloting where you can put your ballot directly into a tabulator. It's not all an envelope absentee ballot process anymore. [00:14:02] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. [00:14:03] Macheal Collins: And I think that a lot of people have uh found that that is useful to go before election day and get that done with. [00:14:09] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. [00:14:10] Macheal Collins: Instead of going to their poll place. [00:14:12] Council Member Dan Gustafson: It is a a a growing trend. I would not be surprised to see us go over 50% this year. [00:14:16] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Yeah. I liked doing early voting this last time because I'm not standing in line at the precinct. [00:14:24] Macheal Collins: Well, and uh now sometimes it's going the other direction where we're standing in line to early vote and there's no line on the pre at the precinct. That can happen also. Uh we are recruiting election— [00:14:34] Council Member Vince Workman: Member—do you have numbers for 2022, the last midterm since this is another midterm? [00:14:41] Macheal Collins: I don't have those on me, but I can get those to you. [00:14:43] Council Member Vince Workman: I was just curious. It's obviously a lot lower than— [00:14:47] Macheal Collins: It was uh if I remember correctly, we—No, I don't I don't want to say we did have lower I think it was a little lower than 80% voter turnout and it was closer to about 30-32% were voted before election day. [00:15:02] Council Member Dan Gustafson: In 2024. [00:15:03] Macheal Collins: Those are just guesstimates. In 2022— [00:15:06] Council Member Vince Workman: Oh, in 2022. I do remember although it was a little lower, it was still very high. [00:15:10] Macheal Collins: Yes. [00:15:11] Council Member Vince Workman: Like it was still significant like shockingly high for voter turnout. [00:15:15] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Burnsville always turns out. Burnsville votes. [00:15:17] Council Member Dan Kealey: Burnsville votes according to my good friend Gemini. It's 24,500 voted in Burnsville in 2022. So it's I think your numbers—Yeah. 32 some change. So— [00:15:32] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Yeah, that's still— [00:15:33] Council Member Dan Kealey: It's about 8,000 fewer people that don't come out for Vince and I that come out for the presidential cycle. [00:15:39] Council Member Vince Workman: I mean, I don't know why they don't come out for us. [00:15:42] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: State of the city. [00:15:43] Council Member Dan Kealey: Yeah, that's right. [00:15:44] Council Member Vince Workman: A lot of major seats on the ballot this year. [00:15:46] Macheal Collins: All right. We are currently recruiting for election judges or poll workers, some people like to call them. We will need approximately 175 judges for uh to operate a primary election and typically over 300 for a general election. Uh some of those 175 that work the primary will also work the general. Sometimes they don't. Uh we we started recruiting just uh uh like a week and a half ago. One of the things we do is reach out to previous judges um and ask them if they would like to uh work again. And we also reach out to every resident or every—Yep, any resident that goes to the caucus and signs up to be an election judge there. We get a list from the from the parties of people that have signed up at the caucus to work. Um, we work with the uh ISD 191 civics teacher to recruit student election judges. And this is only for the general elections when we have the student judges. I think it's too hard to try to get students in in August when they're not in school. But we usually have about, you know, 50 to 65 student judges. So, we do get quite a few. Um, what's required to be an election judge? You must be eligible to vote in Minnesota. It will accept the students. They're not old enough to vote yet. Um, you must be fluent in English. You cannot be a candidate on the ballot. So, if a candidate, for instance, you could be an election judge in Apple Valley, but not in Burnsville when you run for— [00:17:15] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: —mayor. Right. Okay. [00:17:17] Macheal Collins: Um, you cannot be an immediate family, immediate relative, or living with a candidate on the ballot. and you cannot work in the same precinct with any of your immediate family. So, if a husband and wife wanted to both work as election judges, they could. We just couldn't um we couldn't place them in the same precinct. [00:17:35] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: We need to let people know that they need to speak English and read. [00:17:39] Macheal Collins: We do that. We our applications ask those questions. [00:17:41] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Yes. Read and write. [00:17:43] Macheal Collins: Yeah. And election judges do get paid. A lot of people think they're volunteers. They do get paid um they can volunteer if they choose. Um $14 an hour and we pay $18 an hour starting this year for what we call co-chairs. That would be our head judges in Burnsville. We have uh two head judges or co-chairs. One uh of differing political parties. Um it's approximately four to six hours of training. Um the statute requires a minimum of two. However, we typically have at least four for most of our election judges. And uh most of our judges work a full election day um which starts at 6:00 a.m. and ends somewhere around 9 or 10 p.m. at night, which is a long day. We'd like to offer more uh options for half days, but if we have if we have half people working half days, then we have to hire twice as many election judges. So, it's hard for us to do that. And if anybody wants to apply, you can just go to the burnsvillemn.gov/elections page and click on election judges. Any questions? [00:18:48] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay, questions. Okay. Thank you so much. I think this is very good for our residents to hear about um what is required and what to expect uh with the elections. I I think that's very good. It's good information. Thank you. All right, we'll move to the next item. And the next item is the mayor and city council member salaries. And uh our Human Resources Director, Mike Tracy, is presenting. [00:19:15] Mike Tracy: Yes. Good evening, mayor and council. Um as you mentioned, mayor, we are talking about city council salaries. Grab the clicker quick. Thank you. Sorry. You're good. All right. So, um, every two years, uh, staff comes forward to, uh, council, um, to do a salary survey on, uh, mayor and city council salaries. I'll provide a little bit of a background, um, and then some of that information, uh, for council discussion and consideration. So, background, uh, per statute, um, the city council can amend ordinance to increase annual salaries during an election year. Um the increase can be passed by a simple council majority. Um the ordinance must be adopted before the general election um and then goes into effective January 1st the following year. The last time the city council amended the ordinance was April of 2024. And you'll see here here's just a brief history of uh of those ordinance amendments. 2024 being the most recent. Um you see 2020 and then 2020 or 2006 and 2008. The 2008 amendment was just eliminating um a meeting uh there was an extra meeting stipend per diem that was just eliminated in 2008. So per our biannual pattern um we reach out to our market cities um and get salary information for city council members and mayors as well as their benefit eligibility. Uh so benefits um kind of varies a little bit from city to city. Um seven of the 11 cities offer health and dental benefits to their elected officials. Um there's a little bit of a mixed bag. Some of them they offer the insurance but they don't provide any contributions to it, others they do. Um so it's kind of a mixed bag in terms of of what um cities offer for those elected officials. Um and then here's just a quick summary in the background packet. There's the detailed summary that that shows each city's um uh salaries, but this is a a summary of the data showing um current Burnsville um salaries as well as market um numbers. And with that, I will um pass the discussion over to council and stand by for any questions. Members of the council. [00:21:40] Council Member Vince Workman: I'm fine where it's at right now. [00:21:42] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Good. [00:21:43] Council Member Dan Kealey: Good. [00:21:44] Council Member Cara Schulz: Good. [00:21:45] Council Member Dan Kealey: I think in the future we need I'd like to have a council discussion about a inflationary bump each year, but we would have to approve it each year. Some councils have taken that up as an option, but I don't see any reason to talk about it this year. [00:21:58] Council Member Dan Gustafson: I think we're good. I think even with that, we have to bring it back every two years to approve that COLA thing. So,— [00:22:04] Mike Tracy: —Yeah. Yep. That's what I stated. Yep. Exactly. [00:22:07] Council Member Dan Gustafson: I think we're good because if you go back to the slide, we stayed static for a long time and then we—Yeah. And then um we didn't do anything after 2008 until 2020. If you look at it, we were so I think we're good. Okay. [00:22:20] Mike Tracy: Thank you, Mayor Council. [00:22:22] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: There's a unanimous keep it where it is. [00:22:24] Mike Tracy: We'll do. Thank you. [00:22:25] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Thank you. Okay. Now, we will move to round table. The first item is um council member Kealey, the development notification ordinance. [00:22:34] Council Member Dan Kealey: Thank you. Oh, this is the uh—sorry, this is the uh—apologize that I couldn't get into my my background, so I'm I picked the link from the email. My uh agenda notes seem to glitch every now and then and won't let me in. Um, we had an issue with our notification of the gas station on County Road 5. The 350 or 500, I can't remember what was actually done, ends up cutting right through the middle of a neighborhood. So, you have people in the exact same neighborhood on one side of the street that got the notification and people directly across the street that didn't. or depending on where the line was cut, it could be next door or across the street. And we've talked about this many years ago and I think we might have extended it from the the state minimum to 500, but I think back then what I was trying to advocate for and you know we we we obviously settled on just adjusting it to 500 is to carry it out through a neighborhood so that we eliminate this one neighbor getting it and across the street in the same close-knit neighborhood, you know, they didn't get it and and they're like, "Well, I didn't know about it." And I'm like, "Why? You weren't—I'm, you know, I live across the street from you and I got it." It just creates to me nonsensical issues. And that in that case what I would recommend it have done is just carry the line out to Southcross to encompass the rest of the neighborhood and to the east until it encompassed a natural major barrier which might have been I suppose the property and try and think of what's what's after that residential neighborhood the blank lot where Northwest Athletic used to be and then maybe some other things over there. Um so each one would be different. It's going to be a unique line, right? It's not going to be a square or circle. It's going to be trying to just at least reach out to each of the neighbors so we no longer cut a neighborhood um between houses or across the street, right? When they're all in the same neighborhood. Um it just this always never made sense. And when I get calls and people go, "Why wasn't I notified of that? I'm I'm just, you know, a stone's throw away," and they find out that their neighbors across the street got notified and they didn't. It doesn't make any sense. So, I know that we boosted it from 350, the the state minimum, which I've never agreed with, to 500, but I think we just need to modify it to make sure that the entire neighborhood that's contiguous is notified. [00:25:04] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: You know, we just adopted the um planning commission, and Jeff, you can correct me if I'm wrong, the planning commission's um uh work plan and this is on it because they're looking at at the ordinance and the code on all of this. This is part of their work plan. Are they specifically going to take this? So I think your your concern can be brought to them because they're working with our attorney and I think since we adopted and approved their work plan allow the process to go through but uh let them know about your concerns and so it can uh fit with the with the law and that's I'm—you know we say that we want our boards and commissions and our people to have a say in all of that. Because one of the things uh Dan to your point is that and Gregg and Jeff you can correct me. One of the things that we also improved in the process were these uh neighborhood meetings. Instead of one I think you had two for that particular project with the gas station. They had two neighborhood meetings. And I know with the old County Road 34 development, there was more than two neighborhood meetings about that. And so our staff is doing some things to get more engagement, but I'm thinking about what we had already adopted for the work plan for the planning commission and bring your concerns to them and the attorney as they work through that and allow the process to go through. [00:26:30] Council Member Cara Schulz: I think it's a great idea to let the commission take it up. They might just have it need it called out specifically. Right. [00:26:37] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Yeah. But that but with this uh with your comments, they can uh that can be brought to them. Yeah. As a concern for them to consider in their discussion and then look at the law and I think because I know before before Joel retired and that this was the task force. Wasn't Joel present at all of those or who was it? Jared. Oh, okay. Then Jared knows. Yeah. Jeff. [00:27:03] Jeff Thompson: Jeff and mayor and council. Um so the planning commission does have their annual work plan. Um the the major component of that is their um uh update to the zoning code. Uh which is just reaching the kind of last chapters right now with the goal of that coming to the council uh in May is the current schedule is they're wrapping up their review of it, finalizing it. It'll come to the council in May. Um, as you recall when we talked about this this first phase of the approach to the zoning code, it's really focused on uh plain language simplification and and it's not making—and it's not really making any policy changes. Yeah. And so is this—is more of a policy change. It's not something the planning commission is take up as as part of that current work. Um, should the council want to pursue this ordinance change, it would ultimately need to go to the planning commission— [00:28:05] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: —to us and then we can do that. Yeah. But I would—it would—um it would—if we were to do it now and add it to the current work that they're doing, it would delay the overall— [00:28:15] Jeff Thompson: —Yeah. —uh work on the entire ordinance section. So, if it's something the council would want to pursue, we'd likely recommend that come back to the council with more information to get the policy direction and then we would come back to the planning commission and work through the zoning uh process project. [00:28:34] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Yeah. Yeah. [00:28:35] Council Member Dan Gustafson: I thought when we decided to go through all of our ordinances either through the citizens part or the planning commission part, I thought at that time we were going to actually look at ordinance whether they actually applied anymore or not, if they made sense to us because that's what we did on the citizens part. It wasn't just—wasn't just clean up language, which we did a lot of, but we also talked about does this ordinance make sense anymore? Do we want to keep doing things like this or do we want to expand what we're doing on that? So, I'm kind of a little surprised we're just dealing on cleaning up language at the planning to be honest with you, Jeff. [00:29:13] Jeff Thompson: Um, mayor and council, as they're reviewing it, they're certainly looking at—it's not just cleaning up language. It's really just about simplification. Um, but not changing in this current phase. As—Let me back up. Um I think it was in the November work session of last year when we first presented the approach to the the code amendment—really a two-phased approach. Uh the current phase which is doing a um simplification um reorganization of the zoning code then uh a second phase following the comprehensive plan where we would focus more on policy changes in the zoning ordinance that point towards um implementation in the comprehensive plan. So that's the future phase that— [00:30:05] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Okay. Guess you have more to do besides what you're doing. Just the language. All right. [00:30:10] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Several years out—cuz I know it took us a couple years on the citizen side to do this. And I would like to see what the planning commission and and anybody else from the community weigh into that because it comes to us and then we still have the final word on a lot of that. [00:30:26] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: Mayor Council, you recall to to Jeff's point, uh we we had talked about learning from the experience of the code review task force on the other uh chapters of code and then applying a a multiple-phase process to the zoning code. The first being simplification, plain language, clean up the code, and then that second phase being informed by the community vision process, uh, and ultimately our comprehensive plan update, and then a a thorough, uh, zoning code revision to reflect the decisions made informed by the community vision in the comprehensive plan update. [00:31:02] Jeff Thompson: Okay. And mayor, just for your conversation on proceeding forward potentially with this item, that phase is because it follows as as Mr. Lindberg said, visioning and comp plan is probably not anticipated till 2029-2030. So, um, if there's something you want to do in the interim, we can certainly do that as a standalone ordinance amendment based on the the council's policy direction here tonight. [00:31:30] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Mayor, I understand what you're talking about, Dan. More things. But I would like it to go through the—the planning commission to go through— [00:31:40] Council Member Dan Kealey: —street that didn't get something. [00:31:42] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Well, yeah. I think there's a lot of natural borders, large boulevards that that really kind of— [00:31:47] Council Member Dan Kealey: But you hear what I'm saying. I can be in one street and this guy's over here. He's across the street, but I'm already a mile out from it or something. Yeah, I—it just—we got to apply some common sense and just find the—you know the closest natural border where—like I said the shapes with every single application will end up you being unique to wherever that project is and then what's the makeup of the residential community around it. Yeah, if everybody's okay, let's allow the planning commission to go through all of that, but uh to let them know about what you would like for them to take into consideration when they're doing that work. I think it's a great idea to let the commission take it up. [00:32:32] Council Member Dan Kealey: I think it's separate from the the big plan that they're working on. And how how would we bring this one forward? Did you—you touched on it briefly? I just want to clarify— [00:32:41] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: —uh mayor and council uh the process would be if there are—if there is a majority of the city council—if there are three of you tonight on round table—like any other round table item uh I would suggest then uh you give staff direction—or that would give staff direction—to put this on a future work session and we would handle this uh back to to Jeff's point about process and timeline um uh we're coming to you with that first phase of the of the zoning code project. Staff would suggest that we work the plan that was established uh this last year. Uh let the community vision happen. Uh come back with with comp plan informed uh broader zoning code amendments after uh that process concludes. So with this, if there's a majority of the council that wishes to take this policy item up uh off of round table, I would suggest that then staff bring that policy discussion back to you on a work session. I really would need uh both staff time uh to come back and and provide to you our professional um and technical recommendation. Uh uh and then and then we would engage the uh the planning commission and and follow the process that would be required following the the clear direction from the council in that work session discussion. [00:33:57] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Okay. I'm good with the planning commission doing it. I'm not trying to to rush this along. that was just taken back from me when you said you're changing language and that was it and so I wanted a little more clarification on that. So I think the process itself is probably a good process and it will fit in with our visioning process and as we do our comp plan and everything so it can all tie together when it finally get when the final product comes before the council. [00:34:25] Council Member Cara Schulz: I think it's also respectful we adopted their work plan. They're going through it. Um, but letting them know the concerns and allowing them and uh the attorney and uh any other members of our community to weigh in on it and that it's more objective rather than subjective to get at what is reasonable and then it is within the law. I believe the state statute reads 350 ft but cities can go broader just can't go less. [00:34:55] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: So madame mayor members of the council the uh current ordinance is uh to meet the requirement of state statute which is a 350 foot notification requirement. So, I would propose that we give it to staff and it can be brought back in the future and dealt with uh more than likely as part it'll get scooped up in some of these other things, but that it's going to be on its own until that point. [00:35:22] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. Who would like to change the process and bring this as a standalone to a future work session? [00:35:28] Council Member Dan Kealey: Well, Madame Mayor, just for clarification, we're not changing any process. We're bringing forward a standalone ordinance change recommendation that's just going to go through the process on its own and may end up becoming something later, but it's going to go outside of the current planning commission's work plan. And I'm not pushing that it's got to be done tomorrow, right? I think it's—I'd like to get it—my request would be tee it up—get it on future work so it's not forgotten for another several years till more people— [00:35:59] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: —okay and that and I want to make sure that um Gregg I know staff's plate is full so and the capacity so however that is done I don't know what people are thinking. Do you want to go in the direction that Dan is suggesting to have it be a standalone to come before us at a future work session? [00:36:20] Council Member Vince Workman: Is everybody looking at me? [00:36:21] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: I'm I'm asking I'm I'm trying to get a sense of the council on where we are. [00:36:26] Council Member Vince Workman: And I'm just—process that we have now. I don't think this is urgent. Um, but it's something that we could look at in the future. [00:36:34] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. [00:36:35] Council Member Dan Gustafson: I stated earlier, I think we can go with the planning commission to go right down the line with that whole thing, the reasons why. [00:36:43] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay, Cara. [00:36:44] Council Member Cara Schulz: No, I'm I'm good with the process and having it go to planning. Like that's how it should go. [00:36:50] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Go through planning. [00:36:51] Council Member Dan Kealey: Will it—Will it go through planning on its own or be part of something else? I think is the question. [00:36:55] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Do you want it to just be folded into all of the the work that planning is doing now or to have a standalone is what? [00:37:03] Council Member Cara Schulz: Well, if planning is already going to be addressing it, then I think we're good. Yeah, according to— [00:37:07] Council Member Dan Kealey: I I think Mr.—I think Jeff noted that something is coming that work plan is coming back to us and so it may not—this may not—this may be too late to the party to become part of that. That's the way I took your comment and I maybe clarify. [00:37:21] Jeff Thompson: So, mayor and council, there's um there's two phases of the zoning code uh update that the planning commission is is working on. The first is the one that's just wrapping up now, which I'll call phase one. That's the simplification plain language. That is—they're just wrapping up that work and that will be before the council in May. So if you wanted to send and do it as part of that, it would delay the overall project that the planning commission has been working on. The second phase which is the more policy oriented changes is expected after the comprehensive plan and I can pull up my notes here quickly. My recollection is that's in '29-2030 is the time frame for that second phase of updates. [00:38:15] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Okay, Dan. Well, from what I recall on the citizens when we went through all the different policy changes each each month, we we did a couple of them and then that came to council. So, we don't have to hold it all until the end and the whole thing's done as as we go along. So, I can think it depending on when you come to that in the chapters for that particular piece. I think it will come to us then and instead of waiting for the entire project to be complete with— [00:38:43] Jeff Thompson: —I wouldn't—it shouldn't be a part of this current phase because it's too late and should go on to phase two— [00:38:48] Council Member Dan Kealey: —I certainly don't want to wait till '29 or 2030—I don't know for this— [00:38:53] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: —so to your point could it come sooner as as um phases of that final product that's '29-30 or is it possible to do it that way— [00:39:03] Jeff Thompson: —mayor and council so if the council um wanted to just do this ordinance amendment. What we would recommend is it be done as a separate ordinance amendment from the planning commission's work plan and their work as a separate project. Um we could do that in '26, but it would be just focused on this policy consideration of ordinance requirements around notification and we would do that first with the council as Mr. Lindberg said in a council work session to get your direction based on the information we can bring to you to inform that policy discussion before we would then go through the normal process of a plan—the planning commission is plays a role in any ordinance amendment to the to the to the zoning code. [00:39:53] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. To me, it's it's just a question of do we want to take care of this issue—well—outside of the work that they're doing because the work that they're doing with these other projects isn't going to occupy every minute of their day and they have no ability to take anything else on. It is a big project but I don't know that we say well it's hands-off planning commission can't send anything through them. [00:40:22] Council Member Dan Kealey: Well, Jeff just gave us—Jeff just gave us a a path. Yeah, that's what I think we already gave us a few minutes ago. Just go it as a standalone. It can go on after they get through this concept, but it'll come to us with what staff is going to recommend and then it goes through the process with the planning commission. [00:40:43] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Yeah, that's what—so I would like to uh suggest to all of us that we follow the path that Jeff has just outlined for us. Is that okay? [00:40:53] Council Member Dan Kealey: That's exactly what I asked for. Yeah. No, because what—you know we're we're trying to understand and make sure that we're respectful of what we adopted and how that's going to be. Jeff just explained that if we wait because this is wrapping up the second phase has to also do with the visioning process and the comp plan. That's why it pushes us out to 2029-30. Yeah, that's—and that's—Yeah. So—that's not the path. So this is—it's something that gives us a look only to this piece, but I wanted to be thoroughly gone through the planning commission and that process, right? That that's—that's a given as he just pointed out. That's—that's not a question. I think we're making it much more complex than it needs to be. [00:41:43] Council Member Vince Workman: I think we're trying not to add more on staff's plate, but that's what we're doing. Yeah. by saying we're doing this. Yeah. Yeah. But we're not— [00:41:52] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: —Absolutely. Right. That's what I'm cognizant of as well on our 2026 plan that's popping up now. [00:41:57] Council Member Dan Kealey: Yes. But I'm—I certainly am not saying there's a a time deadline except I don't think we need to wait four years to get this done. [00:42:04] Council Member Vince Workman: I just didn't we just go through this recently—a couple years ago. So then we're going to go through it again in four years. I mean, I don't know that we're ever going to have a perfect solution for this. [00:42:15] Council Member Cara Schulz: Oh, there's always going to be someone across the street that doesn't get a letter. [00:42:18] Council Member Vince Workman: Yeah, we just—we have—It's no different from the the uh school district lines. You'll be on the same street and one side of the street goes to 191 and the other side of the street is at 196. And that is a reality here in Burnsville. [00:42:30] Council Member Cara Schulz: Well, and we've talked about how that these are posted, that's in the paper. I mean, there's a million different ways to find this information now, especially with the internet. Um, and what—what is our duty, you know, to make sure every person in the city is aware of everything that's happening? [00:42:47] Council Member Dan Kealey: Yeah, I get what you're saying. This is very localized to a specific neighborhood. We have had this discussion. We just haven't made the decision to fix a problem. And it's a problem when you live across the street or next door to somebody who gets a notice in the mail and you don't and you wonder why why I didn't get one. I'm in this—I'm next door neighbor or I'm across the street in a neighborhood and does it make any sense to keep doing that? That's the same argument I made years ago and we're still doing the same thing that's creating this confusion by our residents. I'm trying to fix it. [00:43:24] Council Member Vince Workman: Haven't we expanded beyond the state minimum in certain circumstances though? Like I feel like the North River Hills Sue Trail project, we expanded beyond the minimums for that. Because I'm thinking of uh Sue Trail, Vince, it's—it's like everybody got it and then if you didn't get it, your neighbor told you about it and you showed up. Hello. We were packed. Yeah. So, we we've done it without an ordinance amendment. [00:43:52] Council Member Cara Schulz: So, is there a way to—I—is there a way to accomplish this without having to subject staff to backgrounds and market city comparisons and everything else just to—Yeah. Can we a couple—How how can we apply what was done in North River Hills, it sounds like to more projects. [00:44:09] Council Member Dan Kealey: North River Hills, it was a word of mouth. It was just a word of—And it was—So we didn't go—I thought staff did send—it didn't go beyond the 350. Did we go beyond a 350? [00:44:19] Jeff Thompson: Meetings? Yeah. Uh mayor and council, I can't speak to the specific notification area we did for Sue Trail. um it was more than the minimum 350 and the and the—the reason—the reason is we told the developer that he had to go beyond that. So that was done ahead of the development review process that was not a develop—we didn't—we didn't ever get a development application. So, the ordinance that we're all referencing is a statute and ordinance requirement when we receive a development application—notice that was done under the our neighborhood meeting practice and staff just used our best judgment and knowing that there was strong interest in it and uh to to meet our community engagement and experience um uh goals. We expanded it because we knew there was interest—engagement got involved and expanded it in that way without an ordinance change. They made a judgment call that it needed to go beyond the 350 required bound. [00:45:19] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: Yeah. And—and to empas—mayor and council—to emphasize Jeff's point, our commitment to connecting with the community, communicating well, and engaging the community uh oftentimes goes beyond statutory minimum or ordinance minimum requirements. As a matter of fact, the past couple of years as the community development team has evolved and and grown and rethought process, uh we're really talking about two separate things. Statute and our ordinance reflecting statute sets a minimum requirement uh that that we will always follow. It is the objective criteria by which we meet statutory requirements and that we hold developers accountable to uh uh to making sure that that uh notification happens. The second part of this conversation is what staff is doing operationally, which is thinking about how are we making outrageous efforts to reach and connect the community and and going beyond those minimum requirements. So, I think there's slightly two different conversations going on here. Uh, nevertheless, uh, regardless of those minimum requirements, we're always going to apply the lens of making connection and communicating. Well, I think the policy question for the council here, which again, just as a reminder, round table is, is the majority of the council wanting to add an item to your agenda? Um, the the yes or no question there is, does the council wish to discuss uh that minimum policy requirement expanding beyond the statutory minimum as current code uh as current code establishes, right? [00:46:44] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Yeah. Okay. So the policy—the policy question is do we want this is a standalone to just bring it back. [00:46:51] Council Member Vince Workman: I think there's a way to do both though Gregg because we don't have to necessarily amend the code. Yeah. We could just say with—to Dan's point is—if we're sending out notifications and there's a clear wonky line there. Is there a way for staff to just fill that out and then without an ordinance amendment? Well, they did it for North River Hills. If council gives the discretion to just say, yeah, if it looks like it's going to be strange to just fill it out and we don't need to come back with a policy to do that. [00:47:20] Council Member Dan Kealey: Yeah. I guess the question is to city manager, can the—can staff work on that premise without the ordinance stating uh the 350 with, you know, plus any additional homes until there's a natural road barrier, right? Or some border like that. Can you just do that as a matter of community engagement extension? [00:47:38] Council Member Cara Schulz: Could it be like an administrative decision to be based on the size of a project? I think the entire neighborhood doesn't know that I have to expand five feet on my driveway, but they might want to know that. Yeah. You know, Sue Trail is being built with 90 some homes in it. And so, I mean, depends on—it depends. And I think administratively maybe our economic development people would—could make those decisions as to where 350 is going to suffice or we need to go out a bit farther because of the scope of the project. I mean, they have precedent. They did it in North River Hill. So they, you know, can you work with that as we come up with our ideas. The thing no is that instead of doing an ordinance change or else go through a separate process that administratively you can look at it there's a minimum but you have successfully especially with the sue trail um experience we we really accomplished a great deal without even having an ordinance change I don't know if that's something staff can do. [00:48:47] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: Yeah, mayor and council. Um, you know, we—I didn't—we didn't do a lot of background research in preparation for this conversation knowing that it was a round table conversation to see if the council—majority of the council wanted us to put more time and effort into gathering that information. I think at the end of the day, how you how we want to notify uh neighbors, neighborhoods and neighbors of development applications is written in ordinance. It that's common across all cities. So, it's inherently a policy question of the council um and how you want to establish that. And I would want to make sure that if you want changes to that or have expectations that that—that policy is clear to us in a convers—and—and—if if it's unclear can also be that staff can make that decision administratively. [00:49:37] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: I don't think they really like that kind of fuzzy guidance. [00:49:39] Council Member Dan Kealey: Well well but but I mean what he's—empowers them. [00:49:43] Council Member Cara Schulz: It does but we have to promise not to go—So let's get back to—what do—what's the direction to staff? Come back with for a at a previous work session with how you can put minimums in that is beyond the the statutory minimum of 350. [00:49:57] Council Member Dan Kealey: Yeah. And—and it's—like I said, it's—it's not a—put the protractor on the project and draw a circle that's 500 or 350. Now we're becoming subjective rather than objective. No, it would—we would define that it goes to the natural the the nearest natural boulevard, artiller, some defining border that sort of ends that neighborhood. So we're not cutting right through the middle of one or a third of one and leaving the rest out. Um it it's going to vary. Um, in some cases the 350 may—cul-de-sac city. My god, I'm sitting here thinking it's a cul-de-sac city, so you're going to go in and have it. I mean, it requires cults. Are you going to—I think staff would handle it just fine. I just think I what I hear community director saying is give us a little defined guidance rather than let us just wing it and hope that we hit it each time to everyone's satisfaction—different way of putting your words. [00:50:56] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Members of the council, what do you want to do? Do you want to direct staff or stable? Again, I think letting them hand it administratively depending on the scope of the project seems to make sense. That's for me. Yeah, that's the—that's a policy discussion that—I get the feeling that they're not maybe comfortable with that. Are you not comfortable with that? [00:51:24] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: Administratively, they need to rely on statute or ordinance because if something wonky happens, then are we going to come back and ask why why' you do it that way? [00:51:32] Council Member Vince Workman: Yeah. And I don't want to put staff in that position. Not at all. It just this seems like a lot of discussion about maybe one or two people that didn't get a postcard when there's a million different ways to get notified of things. didn't get I didn't—because conversely I'm sure there's people that got the postcard and were mad that we paid for postage for it and so it's just—yeah I didn't get any matter of fact the only thing I got I got three uh messages thank you that eyesore is gone the people across the street that looks at it all the time— [00:52:03] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: —I stopped short of saying that at the work session it— [00:52:05] Council Member Vince Workman: —and the neighborhood and the neighbor that was right next door. [00:52:08] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: It's going to be a really nice development when it's done. [00:52:10] Council Member Vince Workman: It's going to be nice. He did a nice job. Yeah. So, the question is, do we want to fix it or just leave it as as is? Well, it it—to Ben's point, you know, I did not get one um conflict from—from North River Hills from Sue Trail. I didn't get one, not one. Uh, I did not also on Old County Road 34, I did not hear from any of those residents because those are the big development and the Roar project on the Parkway. That was admin administrative, was it not? because that was it was oh it was a a um a conditional use because it went from industrial to residential—roars on the parkway the boltar— [00:52:56] Jeff Thompson: —uh mayor and council off the top of my head uh that project uh only required platting so—the platting but—and so the plat had to go through their normal processes but—but housing development is of of right development so—by—quick. Yeah. No, nobody. Huh? [00:53:14] Council Member Vince Workman: If we kick this to '27 work plan, would that be more acceptable just because we're already getting close to halfway through '26. I just don't want to lodge something in the middle of what we've already decided on. And so if we were to tee it up for next year— [00:53:30] Council Member Dan Kealey: —Well, yeah. I I think if staff were to have come back, we need a little bit of time and it ends up they recommend we just put it on next year. I—like I said, it's I'm not asking. I don't think this is a rush job. I think it's just a—it's fix it. To your point, council member Workman, the only people who ever write me and call me about it are people who are paying attention and and get frustrated that they were—notified. Usually it's a contentious development, something big, something they might disagree with. [00:53:57] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Were they okay with the development though? Were they okay with the development? Because you're you're talking about this particular case. Yeah. They didn't have a problem with the development. They didn't understand why they weren't notified when people right across from them were. And they're like, why were we cut out? Right. Which is pretty much the story. Whenever I get the the complaint, it's the same thing. It's, hey, my neighbor got it, but I didn't. Or person across the street got it, but why didn't I? And it's kind of hard to explain—sorry, you were outside the 350 radius of the protractor circle, so you missed, you know, we didn't tell you. I'm like, you can't explain that to anybody and and they're going to agree with that. That's common sensical. That's why I'm bringing it forward. Like, it's such an easy fix. [00:54:43] Council Member Cara Schulz: Okay. Members, council, could you restate what you are looking for? because with all of this back and forth, I have no effing clue what's happening at this point. So, could you restate what you're looking for? [00:55:00] Council Member Dan Kealey: I will and I'll amend it with with council member Workman's suggestion because that's fine. Thank you. Is let's bring this back till 2027 and put it on—their—run through planning commission and we'll do it in 2027. That way it's outside of the the current— [00:55:20] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: —Well, that makes sense. And—and and for me it is about staying with our process. So if we wait till 2027 for them for the planning commission to be part of their— [00:55:30] Council Member Dan Kealey: —Oh it's nobody's saying anything about changing the process. It's going through planning commission period end. Right. That's not that question. [00:55:38] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Vince is saying that it goes on their 2027 work plan. What year it is? Yeah. That's different. There you go. [00:55:45] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: Madam Mayor, members of the council, I'd like to clarify if we continue to to work the current plan. I—I would caution the council operationally against providing me policy direction on what goes on the leadership team's work plan. I'—I'd like to keep this conversation as simple as is—is this is this an item the city council wishes to add to your agenda? And if the answer from the majority of the council is yes, we'll get a work session item on future meetings and get it planned into the work that we do. My—my caution to the council would be let's not suggest this is one of the most important things that we're doing next year. Uh uh but but be focused rather on this is a policy discussion. The council wish—wishes to have and staff will prepare that and bring that back to you. [00:56:32] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Do you want staff to prepare it and bring it back—next year? Is fine. bring it back—next year. Just let let it go through planning and its process. I think if it goes through staff, they'll they might recommend next year, but I think it just has to fit in schedule—to a work session. I agree with Gregg. Exactly what Gregg said. That is exactly what I agree with. This is ridiculous. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Bring it back to work. Okay Gregg. [00:57:04] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: Uh, Madame Mayor, members of the council, I have direction from the majority council to get this teed up on a future meeting and we'll do that. [00:57:11] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. All right. We'll go to the next one and it's Dan's—um—pledge. [00:57:16] Council Member Dan Kealey: April's my month. I have three things. Okay. Um Dan and I attended the National League of Cities Congressional City Conference. Um and uh Chief Jungmann was there for a day or two. Fortunately, it abutted his fire chief's uh DC trip. And one of the major messages that came out of uh the National League of Cities uh congressional city conference was uh amongst the many many things that were discussed was um sort of a national—a need for a national uh civility pledge which is actually tied to a dignity index. So I prepared a little packet actually. Could you just send them around? Um, Gregg, there is one for you and then the other council members. Sorry I didn't bring bunch cuz it's really—they're civil. They don't need it. That's right. Um, and so there's two parts to this packet. And on the top you'll see this um kind of like a take-one brochure that can be blown up to be bigger as well. could be kept in a size like this and put out for the public as they come to our council meetings. So the the dignity—dignity index is to provide a visual way to measure the pledge. The eight-point scale is this visual that you see. Um there's a right behind it there's a scoring guide that goes into much more detail. The goal of this is to visually remind people that that actually goes beyond what we as a city have had posted—over there. Our value statement has mutual respect on it. Um, which is good. And Madame Mayor, when she anticipates a contentious issue, she uh rightfully and dutifully reminds everybody in the audience that, you know, this organization values mutual respect, etc. etc. This takes that one piece of our value statement and sort of expands on it as more of a standalone um civility pledge. Now, the civility pledge portion of this is really for—it's for everybody to um to adhere to. And the d the dignity—the dignity index is a really great visual way of saying where do I—you know for people who might come ready to yell at us. They might look at this and and that might cause them to dial it down a little bit because they're likely going to get more heard and understood um if they are mutually respectful in their behavior and and how they address the council. This also is about council members addressing each other because we've all seen the stories of councils who kind of lose composure and control and argue and yell at each other and um there's this has been going on for a long time but at a national level it's reached a point where the National League of Cities felt that it would be very wise and very timely um to participate in this program, adopt the dignity index as a measure and actually put together a civility pledge and have everybody adopt it and sign on to it. So, it's really pointed to us—to those of us elected—to commit to something like this and then we could actually post that commitment in the council chambers right outside the door uh and have these uh like this dignity index brochure sitting out. In this packet that I passed out, there's also a proclamation template. Uh this was taken from the National League of Cities. This is a guide for cities to use. They can you—we—if we were to choose we could modify this to our own Burnsville flavor, but ultimately it has the nuts and bolts of what we are committing to. Um at the time of uh CCC um the NLC board of directors uh adopted this unanimously and we all signed a large poster board. Um it was actually brought through the executive committee in January at our retreat and it was unanimously supported to be brought forward. Um um I I think the goal really is it kind of falls around this quote. Local leaders are the ones stepping up and leading and it's important for us to behave in a way that we expect our citizens to come before us and behave. Um I I think this is a a good thing to do with all the national level um extreme partisanship and arguing and yelling etc. Um cities I believe are the right place because we are a nonpartisan body and we probably have the most civil today of all levels of government. uh maybe the county is really probably there with us too, but we're also the ones I believe that can lead on this and that can influence a lot because there's 19,500 cities, towns, and villages around the country. The National League of Cities has 2,700 members and hundreds more that look to the National League of Cities, thousands more actually, for guidance on things. And I think this is something that um is a good thing for us to adopt, be aware of because it it basically checks, right, checks us as we walk in that this is a place of mutual respect and dignity and that we're going to pledge to do that. I just want to add too, I'm presenting this on Thursday to the League of Minnesota Cities board of directors along with Mayor Kim Norton of Rochester who um is on the board of directors of NLC as well. Uh Luke Fischer of the League of Minnesota Cities is very very supportive of this. He is a member of the executive committee of the National League of Cities and the board. He's the current chair of the steering committee of all state leagues in the country. and the state leagues have a very significant impact on how National League of Cities operates—the direction they take—um the activities they get involved in. Um so uh no pressure. I'm not saying that that's expectations. I just want to put it out for discussion by our council um to consider this. Don't have to make a decision tonight. That's not the point of this. It's to bring forward the concept and uh get your feedback and I'm of course hoping that you'll support it, but if you don't, I respect that. I think I expect that the board of the League of Minnesota Cities will likely adopt this and then it'll come through the league uh in their programming and it'll be a part of the annual meeting in uh the summer that some of us are going to. Happens to be in Rochester actually. With that, be happy to take questions and answer them the best I can. [01:04:15] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Yeah. Okay. Dan G, I I read when you—when I saw the notice that we were going to talk about this, I pulled all this up at the league and everything and it kind of struck me a lot of this we already have in our values right now. Um, I think as a council, especially the last, I think couple of years, we're pretty civil with each other. We we disagree on things and we all we all know that and I think we all agree to disagree on things, but I think we do it in a very civil way. Um, I'm not sure what we're going to fix with this by getting into this doing—by going with this. I mean, it's u—I don't know how it will change our residents and how they're going to talk to us if they're angry about something. They're probably they're going to talk to us the way they're going to talk to us. I know our mayor is very good about when anybody talk comes to talk, she talks about being civil and being—being respectful to everybody as we as we speak to whatever issues they come up with. And so it's we all worked very hard to come up with that value system over the years and that's what—that's what we came up with and I think it—I think it works well for us and I'm not sure that changing all of that and putting new values up on our board on the wall of the city is the way to go. I mean, I'm willing to listen to more about this, but my first blush is we're already doing a lot of this and and uh I'd hate to just change it all again. [01:05:42] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: You know, Dan, I I respect what the league is trying to do with all of this because um everybody—when there is an incident and there is a national discord with a lot of incivility happening with people's language—then people come up with this. In 2011, uh, Mayor Walkup of Tucson after the shooting of Gabby Giffords came up with a civility accord. And like you, you—you signed this uh civility um pledge, you know, and that's good. you're on the board and and and your prerogative because I told Mayor Walkup and the um Board of Trustees and Executive Committee of the US Conference of Mayors is that I'm embracing the things that Burnsville is doing that—that really is about civility and we continue to build on that each and every day in terms of our culture and and the things that we do internally and externally continues to highlight how we treat people with respect, with good manners, with politeness. And um yesterday's state of the city was all about being civil, was all about how our—our staff treat our residents with dignity. It's a culture that's been building block by block, year by year. Um, and I want to embrace the things that we in Burnsville have done and not say, "Oh, we need something else from the external to make us better." How about if we embrace what we've been doing and saying continue building on that? because right after I read what was going to be on the um round table, I got a message from the US Conference of Mayors. Providence Mayor Brett Smiley would like for us to have um a resolution about respect and civility because of the political nature and disrespect in uh the dialogue. And to Dan's point, we may disagree with one another on things, but once that's policy, once it's done, we're—for me it's—it's policy. It's not personal. And we treat each other with respect. We're polite. For me from the very beginning in being mayor I said that I would treat everyone who comes before us with good manners and with politeness. I would address them by their surname. Now our staff—I do that—and—but in our work sessions we use our—I use the—their—their first names because it's a work session but other than that when I address them I use formality and politeness to do that. I see that with the way that our residents also come in and talk to us because they understand what it means to come into this chamber and to address us. You know, they may be angry about things, but it's our responsibility to listen and that's being polite. So, I went and pulled up our first shared value statement that was adopted in 1997. And then the most recent one that we adopted um—when was—when did we adopt the—in 2019? Yeah. The—the—the revised—where we—but everything in it talks about—I—we have—we are Burnsville and we have been doing some really good things. I like to own that. I don't want to give it up. You know, we—we listen to our citizens that they're important and we—we value their feedback and their input. Uh and we want to provide the best service uh for them. It just goes on and on. And when you go to the new one in 2019, we talk about mutual respect, about belonging, stewardship, adaptability—all of the qualities of what it means to be civil. I want us to embrace and say, "Yes, we're doing this in Burnsville. We don't need it." Yeah. And I went back and looked at why the National League of Cities I think um—you hired this dignity group to do—the NLC partnered with them. Yes. Yeah. To come up with this. uh and that is also to go through the—the national—it's to trying to combat the rising polarization in and reduce the harassment of local officials uh and restore trust in local government. Let me tell you, I think in Burnsville there's a lot of trust and it didn't just happen. It's because we work on it. We work on it every day. It's not just us at the dais—the staff—when you listen to the stories that people tell about what they experience. Yeah. Not everything is all roses but most of them is they feel that they are being respected. The programs like the blue envelope. What do we do about whole blood? That's because we care. We build about all of those things. I—I want us to hold and uphold the things that we've been doing. So, I don't think it is necessary for us to say we have to participate in something for us to be better. We're doing that every day inside the organization and with our community. [01:10:48] Council Member Dan Kealey: I don't disagree with any of the thing you said. I want to just point out that we are just one city and yes, we already have this. We want to make sure that that's sustainable over beyond all of us, but we also want to be um a voice at the national level with this national movement. There are going to be— [01:11:06] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: —Well, you can say we've been doing it. That's what I say at the US conference. Mayor, I did I did represent that at the executive. So, it's not that we are disagreeing with it. No, it's—I think you gotta separate. It's not a solution to a problem we have. It's a solution to a national problem that they're asking us to be a part of the voice. Yeah. At the national level to participate in it—to take it—to do the—You're all lean. You signed it. That's good. Like it's just like I signed—the civility accord. [01:11:42] Council Member Cara Schulz: I like this. I like things that we can join into and like every person putting their shoulder to the wheel a little more helps not just in our city but other cities. I like collective actions that are voluntary. This is a nice voluntary collective action that we can be a part of. I do not see anything onerous in this. I do not see anything objectionable in it. I do not see that it is asking us to do anything out of the ordinary that we are not presently already doing, but merely to say yes, this is a good idea across the country and this is a good effort for us all to—to join in and not crap on. So like I'm—I am a—I'm a yes. I am a yes on this. Yes, I would like to look at this further and probably unless something weird happens, I am a yes on this. This is simply don't be a jerk. That's really what that is. Like across the country, we're not being a jerk. I don't think that we are not—we're not being—what it is. That's not what it is. This is not saying Burnsville you have to do this because you suck. That is not what is happening—or Burnsville you have to like do all these things to improve. That is not what this is. It's saying there—there is a movement which we could add energy towards that is a positive thing trying to happen in the country and it is that very very little anything to ourselves to—um actually maybe be involved in something decent and it has all these materials are available. we just have printing to provide them like to post something or to have these brochures available is a very minimal printing cost. So it has very little price tag to the city. [01:13:30] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: So we also then joined the US Conference of Mayors and the respect and dignity and—I didn't know that one existed till you just talked about—you know this is coming up and this is coming up it's and Burnsville is doing so—well I—I think I—I am going to embrace all of the wonderful things that we are doing in Burnsville and that if our efforts in one city can u—influence also because it's one city at a time doing something it's so it's yeah Burnsville—if the League of Minnesota cities board adopts this and they as as a member we're a member they're going to bring this forward are Are we going to say, "Hey, you know, thanks, but we're we're good. We don't need this. We don't want to be a part of this. Go ahead and do it without us." I mean, there's only upside to this. There's no there's almost no cost and there's no downside. And it is a collective national effort. It's not just, "Hey, I thought we should have this, right?" kind of deal. I'm with you, Dan. Um, that's three. [01:14:40] Council Member Vince Workman: I don't like uh—Yeah,—that's dignity and respect. —Four. —I don't like the trajectory we're on when it comes to partisan politics and how it's had to slow creep into this room at times. Who was the other gentleman that got shot when um the speaker was murdered? Senator—Hoffman. Yes. —Senator Hoffman—um I don't know if it was today or recently. —Yes. —Um talked about not using dehumanizing language and um it was a pretty powerful statement the way he presented it and um it stuck with me. And this I think sticks to that same way of thinking um that we're we need to remember that we're all human beings and that we're all trying to put food on the table and pay our bills um and that all this stuff that we get worked up about sometimes um doesn't defy those things. So I like this. [01:15:40] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Well, Gregg, you have— [01:15:42] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: —Madame Mayor, just think of what we're doing in Burnsville as the foundation that helps us join this kind of thing even easier, right? It's because I I brought it up at the executive committee. We have—a pledge—and it—and we're very proud of it and we make sure that the—this is taking that turning it into something that is someone else put on a national platform put the package together so everybody could join in and it's a national voice on—it has nothing to do—takes nothing away from what we are already doing—it's adding another layer to be part of a bigger thing so I I don't think there's any reason to feel defensive that it's trying to replace what we already—It's augmenting. It's actually enhancing it in a big way. [01:16:30] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: You know, the only people who enhances that thing is the humans. It's—sometimes they need coaching. It's the humans who—who behave. Yeah. It's the discord that happens. It's—it's not a piece of paper and it's not a dignity index. It's the people. It's the people and how they interact with one another and uh and how they treat one another. So, um you have three votes and by signing on to this then we're going to all respect this, right? Yeah, that's the purpose of it. I mean, I think we all—I want to hear is we all respect what this has to say. Yeah. At the dais—Yeah. Okay. I'm always pleasant, so I don't know what you're talking about. Referring to any single person. It's including myself. Just joking. Just joking. It's 7 o'clock. Okay. The next item is the Burnsville Festival and Fire Muster Security Funding request. Uh, I believe that that's Dan Kealey's, but because he's on the board, Gregg, [01:17:35] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: madame mayor, members of the council, is an item that B.J.'s bringing forward as a uh staff liaison to the festival of fire muster. [01:17:42] Fire Chief B.J. Jungmann: Good morning or good evening, madame mayor, members of the council. Uh, thanks for your time. Uh as the festival and fire muster staff liaison, the festival has requested additional financial support uh from the city beyond the current legacy event policy. Uh following the recommendation and request from the city's public safety departments, private security has been implemented as of last year to monitor the entrances and perimeter of the festival grounds on Civic Center Parkway. Uh this uh has been recommended following public safety concerns over the previous years. Uh this year's anticipated uh expense is around $18,000. The festival has requested the city pay this expense. Uh this has not been a budgeted expense and I have brought it to round table to get direction from the council on whether you would like staff to further investigate this request. Uh we believe there are questions on how this fits into public purpose under the state statute and potential funding options since it wasn't included in this year's budget. So uh my request is to get council direction on whether you'd like staff to look further into funding options and/or challenges uh with this request uh from the festival. So, okay. [01:18:55] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Dan—B.J., what was the the uh balance of the festival at the end of last year on your financials? [01:19:03] Fire Chief B.J. Jungmann: I don't know off the top of my head. I again, we can do some additional staff work, but at this point, I'm just bringing it forward to ask for council direction to spend staff time on it. [01:19:12] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Well, I think if we're going to talk about this, we should have a board member present this to us and they can give us the financials. In fact, I think the city should request financials just so that we know what the city's been paying for and what the festival has been paying for and then we can make decisions on whether additional funding is needed or just wanted. It's—as B.J. presented, it's a cost that has not been borne before until the city public safety—recuse yourself from this discussion. [01:19:40] Council Member Dan Kealey: No, I thought the attorneys had discuss it. I just can't. Oh, so—the city recommended additional security because of city—which the board voted for—which I understand—which affect the entire city. But what I'm—what I'm trying to ascertain is—is this a need or want from the festival? And I'd like to hear from the board in here talking to us about it. And I'd like to see the financials on it so we know what the monies the city gives to the festival go to and what the festival actually pays for itself. So do you want to get it to work session so we can have a board member do it? Because we can't have a board member do it on round table. That's not what round table's for. Round table is do we even want to look at it? So, do you—I can do it either way just like we did with the just like we did with Pride when you presented. We said bring the board in and let's talk about it with them. Have a board member do it just the same way, but also—but also want the city under our agreement to—to request the financials so that we can look at the financials of the festival itself. Yeah, it's a good—how the tax dollars are being spent. Yeah, absolutely. And then I want to see not only the financials but right now in just looking at Gregg—I don't know if because Jenny's not here—just remembering how much right now the festival is pushing $100,000 in expenditure because we pay for all of the um personnel and everything that we do. Public safety and public works. Yes. Under our legacy—public works. There's—So we pay for all of that for the two days. That's a $100,000 if I remember correctly. Might be higher than that because that was a few years back. Yeah. Well, they did that. Yeah. And I'm thinking—you can raise the money to cover these expenses instead of continuously adding and enlarging and asking the taxpayers of Burnsville to pay for it. I look—I—I get—I get that our chiefs are looking at this and they're like, "Hey, what would be—what would be really good for safety?" [01:21:55] Council Member Cara Schulz: My view of this is some of these requirements are excessive. They are excessive for a community event to—to have and um they—it no longer feels like a community event when you are walking through metal detectors and you have to line up for an hour and all this kind of crap. That's not a community event. like I'm not getting the warm fuzzies of a community event in this. Um I refuse to believe that that's where we're at. As a—as a community that—that's—that's just now the expectation that people have to have when they're going to events. Um so I—I have multiple reasons for wanting to take a closer look at this. multiple reasons. So I don't know about the metal detectors. Was that something that was—But we don't do that for the international festival. Nobody goes through metal detectors. Festival had to do it last. [01:22:50] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Elizabeth, maybe we need to know why public safety wanted the additional security for the event. And I'm sure they had good reasons, but are they good enough? Well, they're here. I don't know. Well, I—I'm not going to—I'm—I'm just letting you guys know that when this—because it sounds like this is coming back to work session. When this comes back to work session, this—this will be information. What I'm hearing is that have a board member come back to work session. Have a board member come tell us why they want the money and—tell us why they need security and I—the public safety needs to tell us why security is needed. What were the reasoning behind that? So, bring it back to a work session because I—I can't just see more money more money being spent with the festival. That's ridiculous. Well, as I understand it, there's a recommendation for more security, which is going to cost a substantial amount of money, and that's why we're here. Yeah. Yes. Well, raise the money if it's necessary. It's part of doing business. Raise the money. Well, that's one way of looking at it. But uh—how many companies want—provides municipal public safety and we're a legacy event that is in our legacy policy. Public safety is provided by the city. The extent of going to gated magnometers and private security was, as we'll find out, right, and public safety can speak on. It's time to look at what we do for legacy events in the city itself. [01:24:25] Council Member Dan Kealey: Yeah, it's—it's a dramatic jump in cost and it's not just that easy to go out and find somebody to sponsor it. And it's—I feel like the—the—the volunteers today and in the future are fundraising for a core function that the city provides, public safety for legacy events in our legacy policy. So it—it—it seems inconsistent on that point. And to Council Member Schulz's point, I do share the frustration. B.J. will tell you I wasn't real happy with, you know, turning it into a fortress. I'd say people are more used to doing that these days because everywhere you go, you got to go through a gate of some kind. But at a community festival like that, it just seemed—it was tough. Now, I'm hoping some things will change and that it'll get better and we won't have to do it in the future, but our city isn't trending in that direction. Gun violence is a problem, as we all know. And we want to make sure that everybody who comes to the event feels secure and safe and has a great time and doesn't have to worry about gun violence entering the festival. And so, we—we're at a really challenging place. And I will tell you, I have a lot of conversations with our neighboring cities and our one to the northeast is facing the same problem. They're talking about fencing. They're not talking about private security yet, but they're heading in that direction and it's a challenge. It's really a frustrating, unfortunate situation to be in. [01:25:52] Council Member Dan Gustafson: Well, you have to remember—if it's too expensive, then we don't do it. And this is a private festival. It's a 501c3 which the city is the large sponsor of—which I—very much so. Absolutely. —But it is a private festival that's—that's doing this. So there certain expenses that have to happen. So it's—I think—I think it's time for us to kind of just take a look at all of our legacies and see what are we doing and is it proper how we're doing it with all the festivals right now because this could escalate with all the different festivals for—so far we haven't had to do any security as far as extra security with anything else that we've done in the city. Right. Yeah. We haven't—party on the plaza. We don't do that. We don't do extra for international festival. Um Okay. What I'm hearing is there's people want to future meeting and have the board members come and talk to us because I also don't like it that members of the city council with election certificate are on boards. And then because you make the decision about money, the people's money and uh—this bill continues to go up and up and up and I don't know where it stops. [01:27:07] Council Member Dan Kealey: If we didn't—just remember—if we didn't have gun violence, this wouldn't have even happened. We wouldn't have done a lot of other things, invested a lot in public safety, hired a lot more. I mean, we're dealing with an element that we've never had to deal with before. That's the only reason that this exists, why we're having this discussion. It's—it's an unusual and unfortunate situation and a trend in our city. [01:27:32] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: It also is a situation where there's a debate at the legislature when they don't want to look at gun violence. So, and it's—that's out outside the scope of this council. So, but I understand all of that, but at the same time, we're paying the price. Yeah. And it's the people's money that we are stewards of. Yep. I'll answer—because we've talked about this. This is remind Council Member Gustafson. And—and—it's wrong that—the 50,000 that the city pays us back after we expend it goes toward all entertainment and fireworks, which are free to the public. That wouldn't have happened years ago when they used to charge $5 button to get in. that would have prevented that from being able to happen. Now we're a lot like our neighboring cities, free to enter, lot free entertainment and free fireworks. So those—those monies go against those bills which are usually 80,000 a year. So it doesn't pay all of it, but it pays a good portion of it. [01:28:43] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. Well, we'll wait till the board members come. But I like it. I—I—I don't think any of us like any of it. It's—there's no one part of this that any of us— [01:28:55] Council Member Dan Kealey: —just to give you my personal perspective after giving a thousand hours the first year I took over the event damn near killed me. The next two or three years it's been 500 plus hours. I've given my entire life to this—to this event and to be in a situation after creating with tremendous help by the board members and the volunteers creating this great event open to all, welcoming to all, supporting all, and then to have it fenced in and gated and private security. You talk about knock the wind out of my sails, it was like the last thing I could ever imagine. But I was—I was prepped. B.J. thankfully and—and I—I appreciate it. Kind of brought it up over a year and said, "You know what would happen if we discovered a gun inside the grounds? We'd have to clear everybody out. It would—it would end the—could happen at 8:00 at night on Saturday. it would just—and that's not exactly an exciting thought either, right? And when guns are threatened and guns are going on around us at the school events, it became a real threat and the board supported public safety's recommendation to fence and private security. None of us liked it. Everyone hated it. But public safety felt it was the right thing to do to ensure a safe experience for people coming to recreate at the festival. It's just a—it's becoming a runaway cost because, you know, those things go up every year. And I feel, like I said, I feel like we're supplementing public safety. [01:30:30] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. You have—you have the majority of the council. Um Gregg. [01:30:35] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: Yes. Mayor Council, I have direction on this. I do have a timing concern on this one. Um—or may work. I—I—I will not have the staff time uh to ask public safety to prepare for and come back with. No. Certainly the security part of the conversation. Frankly, I'm going to need some time to—to—to connect with them. the—Gregg I would say—the May work session is already a two-hour—timeline so we're probably looking at June but then my question would be council expectation around uh uh you know—the the event is going to be then shortly thereafter—so is that an agreeable time frame uh June or July uh and will that I would have to ask the festival does that does that work from a timing perspective so—Sure. Absolutely. No problem. [01:31:35] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Because right now we agreed that we would listen to you, Gregg, as you manage the capacity of our staff. We've got—they've got a full plate and I want to be respectful of that agreement. So I leave it to you. Okay. There—reports. Vince, [01:31:52] Council Member Vince Workman: I have no reports. [01:31:53] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Dan— [01:31:54] Council Member Dan Kealey: Experience Burnsville will be at our next meeting to report on our year. So, [01:31:58] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: okay. Cara, [01:31:59] Council Member Cara Schulz: no report. [01:32:00] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Dan, [01:32:01] Council Member Dan Gustafson: I've said enough. [01:32:02] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Okay. And uh this Savage Burnsville is meeting this Thursday and um the community foundation continues to work on homage placing scheduled for May. We don't know what date depending on some of the volunteer work that—that we're waiting on. So that's all I have. Anything else, Gregg? Anything else from you? [01:32:20] City Manager Gregg Lindberg: Nothing from staff. [01:32:21] Mayor Elizabeth Kautz: Um Macheal. Okay, with that we stand adjourned by acclamation and uh we have uh a quarterly round table downstairs and um we will hold that meeting downstairs. Okay, thank you. We stand.