all right it's 5 30. so I'm going to call the meeting to order are we being recorded we are where we recorded earlier anything prior to them will be raised except if we need to use it all right um I'm going to call the meeting to order right now it is 5 30. this is September 18th the Yemen interest a work session uh present this evening myself mayor Lisa Whalen council members presenter Kathleen reffkin and McGregor and Claudia Lacy Peter Vickery is absent this evening and then we have um director of Public Works is Peter Peter Gary Peters Peter Peter Peter and then um Angie bowl is with us sitting in as our city clerk and then um Jasper krugel and then uh City administrator Finance director Brian Grimm and Sarah sansala with Kennedy engraven our attorney this evening thank you all for being here and with that we're going to start out with our water fun discussion I think Brian you're gonna start out right away Council so hopefully the um information in the packet or especially the memo tried to try to hit the highlights as far as um what what it was things are looking like for the uh water fund for 2024 for the draft um budget um as noted in the packet Geary and a2s they did a good job of putting together an updating updated infrastructure plan so we think we have a better idea of when though some Wells and the water treatment plant should be being constructed or Capital project items so um assume yeah obviously if things change or slide over move over the upcoming months we'll update that and then um yeah as far as uh the uh the uh utility rate study I think was very helpful last year in 2022 so I updated that for the purpose of this meeting for uh for the Waterfront projection so you saw that it was seeing that attached in the packet um went ahead and updated the projected rates and obviously you know those can change in the out years or they can be modified as Revenue amounts coming in budget to actual analysis is done um the the water fund debt which you know obviously there's going to be some debt coming on at some point in the not too distant future for first the wells and then the water treatment plant so we have to plan for that and we know we'll be adding annual Debt Service to our water fund um made the note that the current cash balance in the water fund is about 2.3 million but of that you know there's about 900 000 million left to play on pay on the Morning View project for the water name or about it we've paid about half of the project so far I mean I know they're past that as far as completion or whatever so um so yeah as of now I guess there's a preliminary to to look at a basically about eight percent rate adjustment for 2024. um based on you know some of the operations and capital and debt that's within the water fund I don't know if anyone has any questions on the documents included in the packet or wants to maybe I just want to open it up for discussion as far as [Music] the uh the thoughts on the water fund or at least you know we'll know more information um in the third quarter once we get that Revenue in so we'll be able to give it up hold on just a second hold on oh sorry we're trying to get this um Mouse to work that's okay okay this isn't working either and hers is working with mine not again yep but hers but mine didn't work with hers okay do we have any other Mouse try this one [Music] sorry I definitely want everyone to be able to follow along [Music] you're not working Claudius is yours working oh well we'll see now oh Claudia sometimes is working on yeah I can use it thank you perfect oh no that's okay okay so you your mouse is working well it's not working but this new one is working okay at least for now we have working houses okay yeah all right working mice all right there you go should I go back um anything or um um Council will jump in with any questions or comments or yeah let's let's do questions first go ahead um so on the capital Improvement program have 10 million allocated for the third Water Treatment Plant are those numbers accurate based on what we got earlier from 82s where the project was closer to 18. yes or so I don't know if Geary wants to jump into but we did um contact ae2s and get it updated dollar months as well as updated time 10 million yeah it was at least a good number from my perspective as long as that's a good yeah that's what they had said relevant or split between the two years yeah does that include engineering costs as well I believe so hopefully that covers everything not the way the wells are separate so right yeah if I made the wells are separate the total project cost that like what we submitted for the bonding request was eighteen five um that included the wells that included the also the infrastructure to tie everything together so that's the total project cost for basically three projects is this or the total cost that we will need to spend for the infrastructure of the wells and the treatment so I'm assuming the infrastructure comes out of the water fund yeah so I just want to make sure these numbers are right based on that because we submitted the bond for 18.5 and this is nowhere near median 18.5 my understanding was that that estimate was a little inflated or high to have a number but yeah so I think even with tying it together I mean I guess we can clarify and if we have to add a million or two for water main or whatever but I know from previous projects the water main shouldn't make it go from I mean I know the wells are like one and a half million and the water treatments you know tan so that's eleven twenty are both Wells the two wheels one and a half together that's the way I understand because I know initially they were saying you know one point and that's one of the things I was going to ask because I've heard and I've talked with other Mayors from other communities that are drilling Wells and they thought a million dollars per will a bit High they're doing well it's at around five to six hundred thousand yeah that's been our experience okay I asked it's like yeah 750 per will be plenty I mean and I think they're planning just a little extra just just a little buffer in case yep and if we need a third well so yeah we may end up needing a third well so so yeah so well so that was my other well that's a two-s question is that third well why no why don't we just drill deeper into the Jordan or the um tunnel City wanna walk and get more um gallons per minute well that is being discussed to see what we can do with that um we may not need that third well at all I mean the two primaries will be the primary will be the Jordan right the second Derby the mount Simon um if we would need a second one I did bring that up already too why I wouldn't do not space smart enough where we can you know drill into the Jordan again but to get that accurate space with me end up having to touch the Three Rivers again and getting some area in there to get them space to harden up and then to make sure with the hydrology of it that we're not you know yeah but what I'm saying Gary is rather than doing three Wells why not just do two Wells now and dig the Jordan deeper it well if I so just a deeper well doesn't necessarily mean more GPM I thought it meant um more pressure uh no no pressure comes from the tower the tower gives you water pressure so no no no Wells okay yeah yeah so what we're trying to do with the third well potentially is meet a future demand for water to kind of get up to 2500 uh gallons per minute the what they have allocated for the mount Simon is kind of limited to what we have in current well for um the Jordan is I think a conservative estimate I think we think we can probably get more than what we have uh allocated but we just don't know a lot of times when they develop it's yeah it's a wild card okay um but just going deeper into the Jordan the Jordans it's like a lens of I don't know 100 feet or something like that once you're in it you're in it yeah it doesn't matter how deep you mean you don't want to go too deep into it I mean it's just all you're doing is submerging deepers okay so the third tunnel City Water walk would be to supplement any future development you could choose to do that with the whole project right now or as that treatment plant phases up and maybe expands so you could put it in another well um what Gary's saying is maybe you know the Jordan's looking pretty dang good why don't we just try to find a Jordan well somewhere else that won't interfere with this Jordan well oh okay yeah in the same aquifer but just space not far enough apart which is also an option another way like they need a third well if we need a third one yes so and just to go back to answer the other question here's and this is what Aaron uh Vollmer from e2s had sent us um they kind of looked at what the Robin's deal did the same thing two bitless Wells This Is 2020 there were four hundred thousand plus 100 um the pumps for each were 100 Grand and then 50 000 for all the electrical miscellaneous it's around 550 so what he's recommending he said with inflation of the last three years he would say considerably 700 000 per well is probably a good estimate for the same thing for the water treatment plant he said Ball parking a 2 000 gallon per minute plant Ramsey did a seven thousand gallon per minute plant came at 32 million so it just scaled it down looking at that he said probably around 10 million he said that we can fine tune the cost as we get through that water treatment plant study but he said it's a pretty decent start and you know that's where that's where he comes up with the numbers yeah so it's probably going to be closer to 12 to 13 million yeah it all just kind of depends on what we find yeah so you know and then that does include transmission lines and stuff too so yeah so I guess to Kathleen's point or even then if you say these numbers are correct then do we really need to raise it as much as we're predicting over the next several years because we were originally what when David Brown did this weren't they thinking 18 million projects yeah and I've updated that to come down to the uh modified a2s estimates so because David drowning without we were you know gonna have to do like 14 like earlier and stuff so that the eight percent and stuff um takes into account that now we're going to spend 12 13 million in infrastructure versus 18 million okay yep [Music] um and then on the um the next page there oh can you explain the depreciation why it just stays at the 931 I mean it's more of a non-cash item anyway I mean it probably will once we have the plans online it will be something higher but this was more to just try to project out cash flow and stuff so but yeah that depreciation once we get some of that especially once we get the new water treatment plants you can probably even see how it jumped over the years from back to 2015 that once you get something you know 10 million dollars over 20 25 years or whatever um that will um bump up but it it for the purposes of the illustration it gets backed out as far as a non-cash item so that'll be updated as as we go but no good question I thought about putting in like I could have put in you know five percent a year but really it's going to be pretty similar then it's going to bump up once we get the treatment plants built or whatever so so I don't know if this is a good time to put this in but so here's something else I found out recently [Music] for their water infrastructure projects in Corcoran is a fast-growing Community um probably very similar to miniaturista except they're going even faster than we are so I'm just throwing this out there again I know last time we briefly talked about the the lobbyists and stuff and we said well at some point we'll have to but right now maybe not so I'm just asking do we want to reconsider that because I mean I'm thinking Mound got six million they got 10 million why aren't we getting any money we get request I know but I'm just saying even if we requested it I don't know that that's going to get us anything but do we want to reconsider that I'm just asking what was the cost of the lobbyists around 40 000 a year yeah probably not used one I don't know so Mound did not um it was kind of driven by representative Myers uh Corcoran unclear I know that they are representative I can't remember also kind of sponsored that bill I'm not it's unclear if there was a lobbyist involved I don't I know that the the Lockridge list that they gave us um didn't have Corporation in it okay so it could have been another lobbyist group but not Lockridge okay seriously so the lady that was here as far as potential lobbyists made a comment about minitrista and the perception of an interesting so maybe the perception of corporate is different it could be yeah I don't know and see I don't know the I'm not being in St Paul I don't know the um so Limer was there is there's a rep there a senator and I don't know how much experience he has I don't know what committee he's on what pull he has you know I don't know that um he's been there a while but I think he was a representative and now I think he's a senator Morrison supports the bill as well right she was representative and now she's a senator and she actually um when I talked to her earlier this year before the end of the Senate um you know asking her to support the bill is she actually said you know I would highly recommend getting a lobbyist I'm not sure why we could ask her again I'm just asking if it's something we might want to consider if we don't that's fine I'm just throwing it out we do but nothing so it's already been submitted if it gets picked if it doesn't get picked up next year on the bonding bill we can submit it again in 2025 correct correct with the lobbyist behind it in theory potentially yeah so right now the request that we have in is through the Minnesota management budget they um facilitate the requests it's in their system that essentially goes to the governor they look at it it could be on the governor's list the problem with 2024 we don't know the bonding Bill potentially can be pretty small uh its own election year to um in bonding Bill requires super majority uh so there's a couple things working against us compared to last year which not an election year huge Surplus last year so it's it's tough to say the outcome of it you know and I just did some quick Googling and Corcoran did not have a lobbyist it was uh the mayor and I think some City officials that worked with limmer to give the bill drafted right kind of similar to us with um Morrison also had a companion building too that went along with uh with Meyer's bill in the in the house I mean so we can plan if it doesn't go this year we can re-evaluate using a lobbyists are following here but still plan on just paying for it ourselves how does that work um if so let's just say uh because we we're going to have to move forward with the wells and with the treatment plan and right now it looks like uh the treatment plant would be built late 24 and or excuse me 24 25 so 25 minutes 25 probably completed in 26 right um this is my question if we've already started the project and and or even completed the project because we wouldn't be asking for money until the bonding of 2025 right so we wouldn't know until May or June of 2025 could we get is it likely we would get reimbursed unclear I would I I don't know um I've never heard of that okay but do you know any idea I guess I've never heard of that either okay it seems like it's always a upcoming project well then the only other option we would have is if we do it in 2024 um that we keep an eye on on what's happening in St Paul and if they do a special um session with bonding this fall I don't know if they decided that or not but if they do we need to keep an eye on that and and be on top of it and then if they do a bonding they do do bonding in 24. again we're going to have to then decide what to do I mean well we're definitely going to be evaluated for 2024 because there will be a bonding bill it's just small compared to the 2023 one um I think there's probably going to be a lot of requests that didn't you know get met in 23 that are on the list so I think it'll be highly competitive in 24. um and the wild card is uh it requires a super majority it's an election year so it's for 2025 we'd probably be in the municipal bonding process and have funds in by early the middle of 25 for the water treatment plant I mean it'd be close as far as knowing but until you really are know for sure you wouldn't want to be hanging out there with a couple million dollars of bills you can't pay right yeah right well that's that's just it all right okay keep an eye on it and see um yeah otherwise yeah is there anyone else have any is that eight percent seem reasonable to start and then maybe what we'll know more on our third quarter Revenue here we should have had this in October after we've got quarters three's Revenue well and yeah I guess the plan was to have an original discussion and then maybe do the follow-up or whatever you know once we know but um yeah if people actually conserve you know and we it just yeah it's all going to depend if we get you know five six hundred thousand in third quarter if it's you know four or five you know three four five hundred thousand or whatever if it's more normal what was it last year last year was it last year eight nine hundred thousand it shouldn't be that way um yeah okay so yeah I just wanted to seeing the water funds a bigger it's fun just want to at least get some and even give some updates on some of these infrastructure projects and the timing of and even get feedback as far as whether it's better to do like 10 the next five years or let it be a little lower now and let it ramp up as people can see tangible infrastructure building or just wanted at least get some of that initial input and then you know whether like people are good with the eight percent knowing we can maybe bring it down to like you know we did six percent from this last year I mean if the revenue comes in pretty good maybe we go up to five or six for um 2024. I mean we don't even know what what these projects and we don't know for sure what the projects are going to cost as well I hate to ramp it up and then so high and then also then later on go oh well we didn't need this much so that's why yeah to me it makes more sense almost once the projects we know did cost and that then you can ramp it up a little more I think people are probably more willing I mean never really super happy about paying 14 or 15 but I mean if they see somebody they're probably a little more understanding so yeah I mean I don't have a problem with eight percent that's fine um like to see what we make order three and based on how we estimated and everything like that okay I'm fine with you the other thing 19 not so much that's a couple of years out right the other thing that we don't know is I mean we know right now what our um comp plan is but we don't know in the future how much more we're going to be adding yeah that's kind of an unknown and until we and I think that's still a few years out until we have more water to provide we won't know that but that might be another thing to consider too [Music] um yeah okay Well for now but I hate to see eight percent is a lot six percent last year and really yeah okay yeah let's see what a quarter three brings and yeah okay sounds good it should be good directions all right so we can't do just real quick we can't do the tower until after the water treatment plant is up and running correct unfortunately yeah well we can but I will be gone that year well I was just wondering if um you know if you could do it in stages if because I know the painting has to be done in the summer but could the rest restoration be yeah drain the entire teller so once it's drained you do all the work and you have to paint the inside and out okay so it has to be done in this there can't be water in the tar when you're painting the outside yeah okay and then paint it or can they start draining it in April so they could paint it in you know June that's that's your busiest times June you're talking three month project June July August probably into September right time you're done with the blasting and first off you had to move all the antennas off of it that's a struggling itself then you got to come in net uh tarp it all blast everything inside no clean everything and then it's Prime and paint and yeah but can't they do all that in April and then Prime and paint are you gonna guarantee me good weather no no snow warm weather you know that's everything you run into them I mean that they are formulating cold weather pain but it really I mean you need you know 75 plus weather to do it so yeah as much as I loved it I mean it's it's needed it years ago and it's getting worse now every day so and is there there's no possibility of doing it earlier like Kathleen is saying but um maybe not quite April maybe May June July but here's the thing is there no possibility of in the interim getting water from Saint Bonnie while we're doing this I mean I'm just as we develop them sorry as we developed that agreement we could talk about it I think that would be a separate agreement from the emergency use agreement um we could look at it I don't know we'd have to look at e2s to see if they could you know if they could really if Saint Bonnie could actually produce that much water for that much water yeah yeah that's true it's quite a bit I mean hmm all right I mean the beauty of it is we can run I mean unlike the north then where we can't we can still run our plant and stuff so but when it goes in the backwash you lose that pressure so right right you know but we are up to I mean knock on wood we're up to almost 30 hours of run time on those filters which is great as compared to what we had in 10 11. yeah so yeah okay all right well right we'll try we'll we'll try to maneuver something to get it done sooner uh maybe there'll be some new technology that allows us to do it quicker nice all right yeah all right Sarah you're up okay or whoever wants to take it I don't think any of the rest of them go ahead Madame represent the council I was asked to come here and give you a quick refresher on the open meeting law that's what we're going to talk about today if you have questions feel free to stop me along the way I'm gonna go kind of fast through it because Jessica said I have less than one minute per slide okay so the agenda today the basic requirements discuss the exceptions review common issues and then know where to get answers so the open median law is in Minnesota statute section 13d and basically it prohibits actions taken by the city council at a secret meeting so basically the the default position is all means must be open to the pub there are some exceptions that we'll talk about so this assures that the public does have the right to get notice of the meeting and then to be informed and it gives the public the opportunity to monitor the council when you are getting information about official City business discussing information about City business are making a decision so it's all those things it's not just when you're making a decision the basic requirements are that there has to be Advanced notices that's done by setting your regular meeting schedule that you do usually at the beginning of the year and then also if you have a special meeting there needs to be a three-day notice that is put out before you can have the meeting as far as what's a meeting a meeting is a quorum so a quorum here would be a majority of the city council so three of you would be a forum so if there are only two of you here and everybody else is absent we wouldn't be able to have the meeting and then if there's a vacant seat like actual unfilled seat then that seat does not come towards the Quorum so if there's only four seats that are filled the Quorum is still three of them yeah but if it's three and then it's it's only three then it's two so so like I said there's a regular meeting which is what you're gonna do tonight by schedule um they're regularly scheduled meetings I know you sometimes set alternative dates for meetings um when there's hot lots of Monday holidays that come from your fear and then there's the special means those require a three-day notice um what's important about those is that you can only discuss what is on the when you post the notice it can only be what is on the notice that you're going to discuss so you can't bring up all kinds of other things with the regular meeting you can actually add things to the agenda the day of so if something comes up and we need to add something to the agenda you can do that when you set the agenda when you approve it at the beginning of the regular meeting so that's what's nice about regular meetings emergency meetings I know everybody likes to make everything an emergency these are really true emergencies you probably had some probably during the pandemic um I've had them where I had to see that was hit by a tornado those are real emergencies not just oh we forgot to do something and we need to do it we have somebody that you know they needed to get that bids approved and it was like well you messed up the dates it's too late for that so that's not an emergency and that's you just need to give good faith effort to brighten all this so you can call that the day of uh so just you might want to touch on who can call an emergency meeting and or a special meeting yes um so the American call special meeting or two council members two council members right so um if there are two of you that want to call a special mean you can do that otherwise the mayor can just call the the special meeting and I think I believe it's just the mayor that can cause the emergency meeting yes that's with my but my experience um the next thing we'll talk about this is um non-pandemic during the pandemic you had some special rules that applied um that allowed you to have meetings kind of by interactive and you could even do them by telephone you didn't even have to have video you didn't have to be able to see and hear each other it was just a matter of you know being able to listen in and in the public being able to listen in well those rules don't apply anymore because the pandemic is over there's no state of emergency for that um so we do have to comply with the interactive technology statute which is a different statute they did change it this last year to make it a little looser but it's still pretty difficult I think to make it work if you call that out yeah so um council members have to build a c and hear each other and then they have the public accessible here and see all the council members not just the ones at the meeting but the one who is participating remotely there must be at least one council member at the meeting location I've had that where everybody wanted to be remote no somebody has to be here um and you have to do the roll call votes which is kind of a pain and then remember we just have to do that the the other thing this is always the kicker is that you the council member that's participating remotely must be at a location that is open and available to the public so if you're at the you know the Marriott in Florida then you know we have to give the location of that Marriott and then you have to be in the lobby or whatever and um you know somebody wants to come and watch the meeting there then you have to let them do that and a lot of people say it's just not worth I don't really want everybody to know where I am on vacation I'll just skip the meeting so um that's kind of usually what does a trick is people don't want to bother with that notice requirement um I did actually have one just the other week that did do that she was in the lobby we noticed her location and she could participate that way so that's kind of that there's some other very limited exceptions where you don't have to post a location one of them is military on active duty and then the other one is um basically after the removal of the state of emergency then if you if your doctor has advised that you should not be in a public place for a personal or family medical situations I think it's essentially covid then you can do that three times a year which that I don't know doesn't seem very helpful that was kind of the new thing they added so continued means we don't do this real often but this basically would be if you didn't want to end the meeting and you wanted to continue it to the next day for whatever reason or maybe a day after that you can actually do that by establishing that at the at the meeting that you're at you just don't adjourn the meeting until Wednesday at two o'clock and you know I'll be back here at City Hall at that time and somebody would need to make a motion to that effect and then that would be in the minutes and then we don't have to do another notice but that very really I don't think it's ever happened here but yeah but it's enough it's enough it's a tool of closed meetings so like I said every meeting has to be open to the public but there are some exceptions and so if you're thinking an exception might apply it's best to talk to me or Jasper about what you're thinking in terms of that exception um same notice requirements do require um do apply to close meetings so we still have to kind of you know we have to put out a notice if it's a special meeting we have to put out the three-day notice we have to say what we're talking about um so you would start by the having an open meeting and then there'd be a motion to close the meeting and then you have to stay basically on the record at the opening while you are closing the meeting there should be a motion and you should vote on that and then when you go into the closed session um for the most part those meetings are recorded with the exception of the attorney client privilege exception which we'll talk about um you have to give Advance most of you it's like an employee situation where um you know they might be their performance might be reviewed or if there's a disciplinary issue um they must be given notice that you're going to be having this meeting about them and and if it's a performance review they can request that the meeting be open and I have had that happen which is very uncomfortable for everybody if it's a bad review we have had open meeting reviews and I had a council member that was reading from a script and she though she thought it was gonna be closed and then she just started barreling down the script and then realized that it was and then she's like well you know I thought it was gonna close me and I know he requested to be open well but you didn't change your script not my problem um so reading the reasons to close the meeting um there's like Personnel things so like misconduct under someone under the council's authority so an employee um there's also um employee performance reviews when you review the city administrator about some closed means for that unless he wants it to be open that was my situation with the city Ministry wanted to be open um and uh the purchase or sale of property you don't have to close a meeting for that but you you can if you want to talk about an offer that you received from property or an offer you're making about somebody's property security data that can be a tricky one now you know you can't name everything the security day it would have to be something pretty pretty intensely you know secure like the whole you know I don't know secure security plan for City Hall and you're going to review it with the chief of police and you know that kind of thing it can't just be like oh you know okay yeah so that one's pretty pretty narrow attorney fight privilege is also very limited that's really when somebody threatens a lawsuit against the city and has to be a real threat it can't just be somebody standing at their city on the yeah I'm gonna see the city it's you know we probably got a letter from attorneys saying you know we're gonna bring a lawsuit or and here's our grounds for that and you know then I have to kind of make a determination that yes this is like a real a real threat and then we we can close the meeting for that um and then certain not public data but not usually so you do have the right Innovative Practices Act and mean a lot of talk about not public data in an open meeting without any consequence so you could talk about employee you know uh reviews in a open meeting without any consequence and you can talk about like a real estate appraisal and openly fine consequence so um that's something you can't just say I'm gonna close me because we're talking about not public data that's not so what we usually do in those situations is we would pass out the net public data and you could see it but it wouldn't be available in public packet and then you'd kind of probably want to be mindful about not saying too much that identify somebody or whatever you're talking about that it's you know the details aren't out there but you most certainly can talk about not public theater without any penalties that's kind of what we did when we were interviewing and hiring yeah yeah so the process to close um one thing that's important is to State the the statute and we usually write that on the agenda what statute you're closing under you know if it's for you know real property a sale a real property 13B 0.05 subdivision three you have to identify the property and then that should usually be done by the mayor or a council member should make the motion it shouldn't be done by me um there's an actual an opinion on that where the City attorney read the reason to close and they said that wasn't good enough and it had to have been done by the council which I don't think it shouldn't matter but whatever and so if you read the motion and then you said this is what the motion should include and then Kathleen says I move that I I so move whatever that wouldn't be sufficient I guess not you're supposed to repeat that it's a really difficult um so basically um describe it and then look like a salad those means have to be recorded except for the cheering plant privilege lots of times I'm in the closed session just keep people on track because it can be very exciting to be in a closed meeting and you can start talking about other things that you have to remember it is being you know recorded and I can come back to bite you I think it did in Mound yeah we're going off on other things somebody requested it it was like labor negotiations and they requested the recording because after all that's done you can request the recording and then okay um not in all circumstances but in some like labor negotiations in real estate you can get the recordings and that happened in Victoria too um so what groups need to comply with mean lot the city council the Planning Commission the part commission if the council appoints any other bodies of the council like if you have a you point a group to look into Transportation issues in the city you know you firmly appoint those people then that should be subject to the ultimatian law um don't have Fire Relief here but um I know some of you do go to those meetings and then um yeah like volunteer committees you know but um in our case I'm sorry in our case we were not a um a voting power and these um meetings of fire committee meetings they're just um we don't yeah yeah so I mean it's really I don't even know if they're really public meetings yeah so I mean I don't I don't think it's an old one yeah I don't think it's an open meeting law issue yeah but if if it's something that the city is putting together I mean if what I'm saying is if we wanted to let's say Kathleen wanted to talk to the representative in Mound and also the representative in Spring Park and Shorewood they could actually talk because in in not in their committee meeting they could talk outside of that because it's not a public commission correct um so okay just all right so pre and post meeting discussions um this is why I sometimes hanging around after meeting okay Sarah's listening I know sometimes when the meeting is particularly exciting it's fun to sit up here and talk about it afterwards but you should avoid doing that um obviously you can talk to each other about other things you know but then again you got the public standing out there and they're like what are we talking about in there so it might even look bad if you're talking about hey can I come over tomorrow and you know do something you know something personal instead of just City business so um and then the same thing avoid going anywhere and you know for drinks or coffee I know I had a console that liked to do that to go out for drinks I don't do that um serial meetings um so don't do this either this is it's like this I think straighten things along so you know the mayor calls Kathleen and then she calls in and then you know it becomes a Serial meeting where you're well not all talking same time but you're even if I call Kathleen and then Kathleen calls Anne and then Anne calls Claudia yes that's that's a Serial meeting the other thing that is somewhat ambiguous a little bit gray is if somebody were to call Kathleen and then say Oh I'm going to call Anne and calls Anne and says well this is how Kathleen is going to be voting and then Claus calls Claudia and says oh well this is how Ann and Kathleen are going to be voting you have to be careful about that as well and so I've actually at times I've asked people I've said well who have you all talked to and then if they say well they've talked to other council members I say well let me just explain right now I said I don't want to know what the other council members have said I don't want to hear what their what your conversation was if you want to tell me your story that's fine but that's the end of it so so be careful about that um that that's it's a tricky one sorry because you don't want to tell tell people if they want to talk to our you know to you or our elected officials I can't talk to you but you have to be careful that they're not telling you that they've talked to so-and-so and how they're going to be voting yeah so Sarah what is the time period one day one day you know what no I mean it's whatever I mean right I mean I think it if it's construed it's all the same subject and some same subject bring that all together that before the meeting you know you know 20 days before the meeting this person you know because they can request phone records and I've had that where they have strung together they've seen this person called this person and they talked for 20 minutes and that was right after the meeting and then they called this person and they talked for five minutes and I mean they they put it all together through a data request no I guess my question is what makes it not a cereal if I wanted to speak with all the council members and the mayor about something how do I go about doing it so it's not a Serial meeting well you you can speak to them individually about anything at any time can't be can't be you know calling the mayor and saying well how are you going to vote on this oh it's just about I see thank you yeah something related to counseling counselors to do it during the meeting yeah yeah it's really about you know how you're going to be voting on issues and discussing the other members yeah yeah it's just that if you want to talk to whoever whenever you can it's just it's important too to not be getting together with two other people and having our Forum of you talking you know either by email or yeah on the phone or whatever so that that's the important thing regardless as long as you know it shouldn't be City business if that's happening but if it's not City business I mean there's been times where I've maybe talked to Ann I said no and I I'm only talking to you and I'm not going to talk to anybody else about it um or you know that's so you can do that um but you know like one time I I wanted to just inform Anne what I was doing so she would know what what my thought process was and I said but I'm not talking to anybody else about this I just want you to know what I'm doing so um okay thank you so that kind of comes up to the electronic communications so um this is when you can get in trouble with cell phones computers emails um basically you know people can request this information and and then that's kind of how they can figure out if you're finally an open meeting line we've had that happen here I don't know if there were any opening law violations it was just more lots of data requests of emails and so people got a hold of all these emails and then they you know could kind of string them together to see who was talking to who and then if somebody I know not in the city but in a different city I had one of the council members refused to provide their emails and their Flags don't have any emails and then we found that they had emails because we found them in other people's email boxes so produce your emails if there is a data request and we'll go through them and and it doesn't matter where they are like if they're people will say well that I sent that one from my work computer well it doesn't matter if it's about City business you know same goes with either you're using your Gmail account doesn't pose to your city account um you know it's still a city business email so it is except there's some exceptions so for instance if Claudia talks to Jane Dole um resident okay that email can remain private she does not have to disclose that you can make it public if you like if you wish and that would be at your discretion but if you send me an email that's public okay so there's there's a little bit of a difference so if it's a residence it sends it to Jasper then it's probably any City staff right so lots of times I know somebody will contact you and then you send it to staff because it's like well hey you know can you deal with this person right I kind of do that a lot it does become public at that point which is probably fine I mean right I I don't I don't even know I mean I guess I'm not in your position so I don't know when you would probably not want it to be public but they might be might be there's a cut there's times where you don't have to pass it on I mean whatever and then the one thing too you should keep in mind too is if somebody's complaining about their neighbor's property or something like that their their information you know the fact that they are complaining who they are that's confidential data so that is always no matter if you send it to Jasper or not um that can't be disclosed to anybody so um that that's yeah under the data Practices Act and that's not just their name but like anything that would identify them their phone number or their email address or or even if they say I live on the corner of this these two streets and you can figure out who they are by doing that so um that's something to keep in mind too that you know if somebody's complaining because I know you get complaints about real property too and it's fine to respond to them and all that and to forward that to City staff because they know to keep it confidential but it's just important to know that in case you're putting it out there somewhere else I don't know where that would be but um and so yeah this basically applies to any kind of communication so text messages emails telephone calls and you know people can request all that right and it doesn't matter if it's your personal cell phone or you know the city computer it's all it's all fair game if it's cities City business so it's about the content except when it comes to Personnel issues yes and it's not necessarily public correct yeah so okay just yeah yeah well there's personnel and there's like you know real property complaints there are exceptions yeah but just I I would just keep in mind that it's gonna probably be public so because I remember there were some embarrassing emails in the past that they were public and it was like oh I don't think they thought they were fun so um just keep that in mind when you're writing anything down um so that's another thing do not reply all so like let's say staff like Jasper sends you an email good practice not to just all or you know reply all and say well I think this should happen or you know don't don't do that just reply separately back in Jasper or any other City staff that are emailing you um and then like we talked about one-way email communication does not violate the open mean law but the best practices to use staff so you can get rights of Jasper yeah yeah well the problem with one-way um communication to everybody so um is is an issue I think because then that in one individual has sent out their opinion or whatever and nobody else then can reply see that's that's the problem with that so nobody else can State their opinion and that's kind of a disadvantage for the other four council members you mean like when we get an email from a resident no no if you sent out an email to all of us you know and you just you know say an issue whatever and we can't reply you know and and we shouldn't but it's a disadvantage for all of us because now you've put your ideas on the table you've told us what you want but we have to wait until the meeting to discuss our um issue or our part of it so I really I know it's it's not illegal but I really discourage people from doing that if you have if you want to say something say it at the meeting no hold on I'm just saying it's it's come up before it's come up before so not not here okay like the using staff um one of the Cities I represent um one time I got I got five phone calls from five council members and they all asked me the same question I responded to all of them on the phone and then I I always tattletail them you know with with to the city administrator so I wrote the same answer I got caught from so-and-so this is what they asked me this is what I told I uh so I did that five times and then he wrote back to them all and he said you know you should have just asked your question to me and I could have asked her and then we wouldn't have been built five times for this we wouldn't wasted everybody's time you know asking this question that you all have you wanted to know the answer to and um yeah so you know it is good to use staff in situations like that where you know everybody's asking the same question and then you know Jasper can kind of be the judges too if you know is this something everybody needs to know because in that case it was like can we close the meeting I think this is the question yeah I wanted to close it for a certain reason so he was able you know so you make sure everybody will say yes you know returns that we can close the meeting here you know here's what the requirements are so social media um that's allowed if you want to use it um but you know it can violate the opening law if you're using it as a discussion tool so if we've had this in another city I just gave a speech about this last week about people commenting on social media council members you know getting on there they're trying to be helpful but then it kind of gets into a discussion and then you know other council members want to chime in and then it becomes an open mean law violation if there's you know three of them talking amongst themselves on social media so just be careful about that and also if we get a data request and they want all of you know one you know your social media posts then we got to produce those so um that's just something to keep in mind when you're posting on social media it's you know it's that you know something you can't do but you know just be careful of it I guess and mindful that it is you know subject to all the other it's subject to everything that all the other Communications are subjects I've also heard that um some cities have what they call social media policies yes and in procedures in place so that everybody clearly understands their role and what you can do and what you shouldn't do and that kind of thing I don't know if we have we have that yeah okay I don't do social media so I don't pay attention but well if we have that you know that you should share that with the council then I mean just so we all are aware of it and I think a lot of the city's social media policies also speak to like blocking like we've had issues in one of the Cities I represent where people you know they say they say something they make some announcements and then these people start making these nasty comments and um you know the city wants to block good comments I know there's a First Amendment issue with so we've been able to use the policy to we can say because it'll say like disrespectful comments or you know offensive language those kinds of things are not allowed so then we just say we're blocking it because of the you know it's done but it's nice to have that thing a hat on as opposed to say well we just didn't like it I didn't like it yeah so that can happen with people or sometimes I just don't allow comments like just put this up there this information or this news is you don't need to allow comments because that just kind of invites problems I think sometimes so exceptions um of course you can all get together at a party and hang out just don't be talking about City business that's absolutely fine social Gatherings are fine so you don't have to freak out if you all find yourself sort of event together I know sometimes if we have like an official City Event we might just post that just to be safe and be like you guys were caught talking but we still shouldn't be talking no business because there's no agenda and there's no you know so you know so when we have our holiday event and you all come I'm thinking about the tree lights yeah I know so you know that might get posted you might be like well why are you posting that that episode you know it's a social Gathering well that's why just just to be safe so there is some personal liability in some situations so the city does have insurance through the league of Minnesota City's Insurance trust and it does cover open being violations um and somebody who brings a lawsuit on an open mean law violation can recover their costs disbursement and attorney's fees uh commonly up to about 13 000 that's within the statute but there has been more than that that usually does come out of the League's pocket um there's also a 300 fine so if like three of you were caught by the mean law that's three another five and that comes out of your pocket the city can't pay that the league can't pay that um if you do it three or more intention intentionally three or more times which is I don't know it seems like that would be hard to do but then you do forfeit office and there are some mandatory attorney fees but there it's pretty Brazen usually when that is um this one was a lawsuit against the city there was actually a data practices office opinion and the city even though they had that opinion still failed to comply with that so um the data practices office does issue opening opinions in addition to data practices and opinions so you can read opinions on open mean law issues if you want through the through the data practices office so those are my points and I don't know if you guys have any questions but um it's kind of a quick refresher on open meeting law but if you do have questions you know feel free to reach out to Jasper or myself no all five call me with the same question but um you know definitely you know if there's something you know it's better to talk about it ahead of time than to try to close a meeting at the meeting when nothing's been noticed you know just make sure that we're following all the right procedures okay thank you thank you all right I can share our social media policy it's in our personal policy so yeah this would be good yeah like I said I don't do social media so I don't know and you probably know it you probably noticed this when I send emails to all of city council I usually I blind copy everybody and then at the bottom of the email I just say who I blind copy yeah I think that then we avoid any reply all situations and you just reply back to me if you have a question so that seems to work Kathleen and I we play Under Personnel committee we apply because it's no yeah um yeah and it's the Personnel committee and only two council member is present so okay all right very good that's it all right next all right mayor and city council we received a letter from uh city of Saint bonifacius um requesting our response regarding uh uh requests to increase the service benefit for the uh Saint bonifacius fire department um firefighters uh to the service benefit to move from fifty two hundred dollars which is what the current rate is to uh fifty seven hundred dollars um Saint bonifacius is favorably considering this but they've requested our official action uh I'll give a little input this this number is lower than what Mounds is what is wrong I think is it 6500 now I want to say it's in six thousands um which was a big increase this year um so and basically what that means is for every year of service that they have they they gain that in their pension which they gain access to after they retire and um in this case I believe they're they're partially vested at five years and then it they're fully vested at 20 years um things to consider you know if if there's ever a district that's formed uh we would have to reconcile these things if there would be one day one one fire department um so that's something to consider um the the fund itself another consideration is can the fund that the fire department relief associate or Fire Relief Association have can that fund this and what percentage are they at um what I got back from St Bonnie on this is that yes they do they're they're like 118 funded right now this would get them to like 112 so they'd still be over funded which is that's a good spot to be you know um St bonifacius is the Fiscal Agent for that Fire Relief Fund so a lot of times there's a question what happens if that is underfunded um the the relief Association would then request money from Saint bonifacius which then would work its way through the budget to us uh we're 70 contributors uh right now I think in 2024 well we're about 70 so want to get some feedback uh from the group on this um this request from from St Bonnie so I'll entertain any questions yeah my my first thought was if we ever did want to create a district we have to bring Saint Bonnie up to well regardless of one way or the other plus I don't think it's a big big ask to go from 55 to 50 yeah to 5700 and I think it's it's we I think it's something we should do absolutely reasonable because it's gonna it's harder and harder to to get recruits in the lower this number is in all the worse it is so I can I can either bring official action I'm not sure what we've done in the past um previously a lot of years we've just put it on consensus and then have the official response from the call to be done this this is something separate a little bit about fire related but and he responds yet to our original question about the the 17 000 but yeah yeah eighteen thousand seven hundred dollars um yeah so uh after talking with uh council member revkin today uh I've been working on this I'm trying to get a hold of uh Watertown in Lake Township folks which is challenging yeah I talked to Eric Anderson the fire chief today um St Bonnie had a work session either this month or last month where they discuss what they're going to do with their Public Safety money one of the things that they were discussing was possibly using some of that money and putting it into basically putting that 18 700 back into the capital fund along with a couple other things Eric mentioned that um the the furnace and things like that that got used in uh not in the capital fund but in an operations fund refunding that so kind of I think it was a total he kind of said they were considering adding forty thousand dollars from their Public Safety money into the fire fund they haven't taken official action on that I think that'd be probably part of their their budget adoption okay um so there's potentially some movement there um I think we still want to look at uh working with lake town and Watertown Township um kind of reconciling the agreement that we have right now there's three separate agreements it'd be nice to have one agreement everybody signs it I know I'm working with uh with Sarah on that potentially still waiting on getting the the agreements currently that Lake Town has and Watertown has so it's moving forward I think that's positive um if it actually happens it's even more positive but I still think there's there's probably some just clarification things in the in the contract we should still go through that exercise uh to complete um talking with council member rafkin I think it's a third meeting would be good too uh right now we only meet twice a year um with them uh so we and and I speaking with uh meetings that's speaking of the fire chief he's definitely on board with that he thinks that'd be a good idea it'd be great to get one maybe right before September so we get like the final proposed budget for the fire departments we can put it into our our budget maybe get some input or be able to give some input in that situation um I think we had our meeting when was that in may we had a meeting in May and from May to September I think the budget maybe increased about two percent from what we were proposed which you know Eric indicated that could happen um there's a portion went up higher contract form for me so it was like a 12 yeah overall it was it was a two percent budget increase but our proportion went up to 12 um increase so I think overall was nine but ours is 12. because of just the way the contract is so I think it's good things it's positive in my opinion but I think we'll still continue down the path of uh attempting to amend the agreement um and try to clean a couple things up I found Mounds pension 6185 okay so they're getting closer yeah but I think if is it are they making an adjustment in 24 I can't remember I believe I thought they were no we approved it last year for okay either way they're getting close okay good so what you'll see is a an item on consent um uh providing support yeah okay for this yeah at our next meeting okay all right that's it that's it all right um then we can be adjourned for 20 minutes well until the next month okay Kathleen made that motion is there a second second thank you all those in favor signify with thy all right motion passes for all so we'll uh yeah 27 minutes