. >> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO THE JUNE 12TH, 2025 MEETING OF THE BLOOMINGTON PLANNING COMMISSION. THE PLANNING COMMISSION IS MADE UP OF SEVEN VOLUNTEERS. WE HAVE FOUR HERE THIS EVENING. WE'RE ALL APPOINTED BY THE CITY COUNCIL FOR MOST ITEMS THE CITY COUNCIL HAS FINAL DECISION MAKING AUTHORITY FOR SOME ITEMS. THOSE ARE APPROVED BY THE PLANNING COMMISSION. WE HAVE NONE OF THOSE TWO ITEMS TONIGHT. WE HAVE TO STUDY ITEMS. FIRST ITEM OF BUSINESS IS THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. PLEASE STAND IF YOU'RE ABLE TO THE FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS ONE NATION UNDER GOD INDIVISIBLE WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. RIGHT. LIKE I MENTIONED BEFORE, WE HAVE TO STUDY ITEMS THIS EVENING. SO ITEM ONE IS CASE PL2025-69. IT'S A STUDY ITEM OF THE ENORMITY LAKES DISTRICT PLAN UPDATE THE NORM DALE BOULEVARD 84TH STREET PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE AND PLANNING SUPERVISOR CARS TODAY YOU HAVE THE STAFF REPORT YOU SHOULD BE GOOD IF YOU JUST HIT THE ARROWS. OKAY I. I ASSUME YOU ARE MR. QUEST. I AM, YES. ALL RIGHT, GREAT. I AM JEREMY MARQUIS. I'M A CIVIL ENGINEER WITH ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT AT THE CITY HERE. I'M JOINED BY OUR CONSULTANT MIKE LARSON AND BRIAN NEMETH WITH BOLTON AND MAKE WE'RE HERE TODAY TO DISCUSS PEDESTRIAN IMPROVEMENTS TO THE INTERSECTION OF 84TH STREET AND NORMANDY BOULEVARD, THE NORMANDY LAKES DISTRICT PLAN CURRENTLY HAS IDENTIFIED A PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE AS A LONG TERM OPTION ACROSS NORMANDY BOULEVARD. AT THIS INTERSECTION A BRIDGE WOULD PROVIDE PEDESTRIANS WITH THE OPPORTUNITY TO AVOID VEHICLE TRAFFIC BUT ALSO HAS SOME MAJOR PRETTY MAJOR DRAWBACKS INCLUDING SIGNIFICANT IMPACTS TO SURROUNDING PARKLAND AREAS AS WELL AS I'M SORRY I JUST LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT. I'D THOUGHT HERE AS WELL AS THE PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE WOULD NOT PROVIDE THE MOST DIRECT ROUTE FOR PEDESTRIANS WHICH MAY LEAD TO A LOW USAGE. SO THIS STUDY CURRENTLY AIMS TO IDENTIFY ALTERNATIVE ACCURATE TREATMENTS THAT WILL IMPROVE PEDESTRIAN EXPERIENCE AT THIS INTERSECTION AND WILL HAVE LESS IMPACTS TO THE SURROUNDING AREAS. BOATER MAKE HAS PREPARED THREE ALTERNATIVES THAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK ON FROM PLANNING COMMISSION TODAY SO WITH THAT I WILL PASS IT OVER TO MIKE LARSON FROM BOLTON TO ME TO DISCUSS THE STUDY FURTHER AND THE ALTERNATIVES. WELCOME. MR.. LARSON THANK YOU. THANK YOU, JEREMY. SO AS JEREMY MENTIONED, OUR STUDY REALLY DOES FOCUS ON WHAT WHAT CAN WE DO TO THIS INTERSECTION TO MAKE IT FEEL SAFER, FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE TO PEDESTRIANS AND REALLY THE PURPOSE OF THIS IS THERE'S A DIRECT NEED TODAY AT THIS INTERSECTION AND ON BOTH CORRIDORS AS WE'VE GOT SURROUNDING LAND USES THAT ARE CONDUCIVE TO PEDESTRIAN GENERATING ACTIVITIES WITH THE BUSINESSES ON THE NORTHWEST SIDE, THE COMMERCIAL AREAS, RESTAURANTS ON THE NORTHEAST SIDE AND THEN THE PARKLANDS SIGNIFICANT TRAIL NETWORKS SOUTH OF THE INTERSECTION AND ALONG BOTH ROADWAYS 84TH STREET IS DESIGNATED AS A PRIORITY CORRIDOR AS PART OF THE CITY'S ACTIVE TRANSPORTATION ACTION PLAN. SO WE KNOW THERE'S A PLAN HERE . THERE NEEDS TO BE A PLAN HERE AND IT IS A PRIORITY LOCATION BECAUSE OF THE INTERSECTIONS LOCATION, ITS PROXIMITY TO THE MAJOR HIGHWAYS JUST NORTH OF HERE, THE SIZE OF THE INTERSECTION IT IS A DIFFICULT AND UNCOMFORTABLE LOCATION FOR PEDESTRIANS TO CROSS. AND AS JEREMY MENTIONED, WE DO HAVE THAT PROGRAMED PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE OR OVERPASS BUT WE'RE LOOKING AT MORE FEASIBLE AT GRADE ALTERNATIVES THAT MIGHT BE A BIT LESS IMPACTFUL. SO STAFF DIRECTED US TO FIRST TAKE A CHI LOOK AT THE PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE RECOMMENDATION. WHAT MIGHT THAT LOOK LIKE? WHAT MADE IT COST? WHAT CHALLENGES MIGHT NEED TO BE OVERCOME WITH A PROJECT LIKE THAT? THE FIGURE ON THE LEFT SHOWS TWO POTENTIAL ALIGNMENTS ON WHAT THAT ROUTE MIGHT LOOK LIKE. WE DON'T HAVE A RECOMMENDATION ON ONE OVER THE OTHER AT THIS POINT BUT WHAT YOU'LL NOTICE IS THAT BOTH ALIGNMENTS TAKE PEDESTRIANS AND BICYCLISTS SIGNIFICANTLY OUT OF THE WAY OF AN EAST-WEST MOVEMENT ALONG 84TH STREET. AND WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT PEDESTRIAN BRIDGES, UNDERPASSES, THINGS LIKE THAT THE MORE YOU INCREASE THE TRAVEL TIME AND DISTANCE THAT A PEDESTRIAN HAS TO MAKE TO GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B, THE LESS LIKELY THEY ARE TO USE IT. SO THERE ARE CHALLENGES WITH THIS WE ESTIMATE A STRUCTURE LIKE THIS MIGHT COST IN THE REALM OF $5 MILLION SO IT IS A SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT THAT COST COULD INCREASE. WE'RE IN A SLIGHTLY RISKY AREA WITH THE VEGETATION THE WATER BODIES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE OF THE SOUTH LEG OF THE INTERSECTION. THERE'S A HIGH POTENTIAL FOR POOR SOILS. OTHER CHALLENGES THAT MIGHT NEED TO BE MITIGATED THAT MIGHT MAKE THAT COST GO UP. I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT ON THE SLIDE HERE IS THAT LAST ONE WHERE IT COMES DOWN TO CONTEXT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THIS INTERSECTION, HIGHWAY 100 IS JUST THE NORTH LEG OF THIS WHERE WE'VE GOT A FREEWAY FACILITY WHERE IT'S CLEARLY DESIGNATED FOR VEHICLES. WE'VE GOT PEDESTRIAN OVERPASSES ALL ALONG HIGHWAY 100. IF WE CONSTRUCT A SIMILAR STRUCTURE A PEDESTRIAN OVERPASS OF THE SOUTH LEG HERE ,IT MAY FEEL LIKE AN EXTENSION OF HIGHWAY 100. WE MIGHT SEE HIGHER SPEEDS PEOPLE COMING OFF THE FREEWAY AND TRAVELING INTO TOWN HERE IN NORMAN BOULEVARD SO THAT ILLUSION OF SEPARATION THAT MIGHT COME WITH AN IMPROVEMENT LIKE THIS MIGHT HAVE NEGATIVE IMPACTS FURTHER SOUTH. SO AS PART OF OUR STUDY OUR FIRST STEP IS REALLY TAKING STOCK OF HOW THE INTERSECTION OPERATES TODAY AS FAR AS HOW IT FUNCTIONS FOR VEHICLES, PEDESTRIANS, THE CRASH HISTORY, THINGS LIKE THAT. A REALLY KEY THING TO KNOW ABOUT THIS INTERSECTION. IT'S PROBABLY THE HIGHEST VOLUME INTERSECTION IN THE CITY IF YOU EXCLUDE SOME OF THE INTERCHANGES ON 494 AND THE SURROUNDING FREEWAYS REALLY BECAUSE THAT NORTH LIKE IS THE END OF HIGHWAY 100 WE SEE OVER 32,000 VEHICLES PER DAY ACROSS THAT LEG. WE HAVE A LOT OF TRAFFIC VOLUMES AT THIS INTERSECTION OF PEOPLE THAT WANT TO GET TO THOSE FREEWAY DESTINATIONS. OPPOSITE OF THAT WE DO STILL SEE A GOOD AMOUNT OF PEDESTRIAN ACTIVITY HERE AT THIS INTERSECTION IN ONE DAY WE SAW OVER 200 PEDESTRIANS CROSSING THIS INTERSECTION OVER THE COURSE OF 24 HOURS. JUST OVER HALF OF THOSE ACTUALLY CROSSED THE NORTH LEG WHICH IS SLIGHTLY INTERESTING. IT IS THE HIGHEST VOLUME VEHICLE CROSSING LOCATION OR LIKE AT THE INTERSECTION. BUT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE PEDESTRIANS AND FAST PATH BETWEEN POINT A AND POINT B, THEY REALLY WANT TO GET FROM THAT BUSINESS PARK ON THE NORTHEAST OR THE NORTHWEST CORNER EXCUSE ME TO THE GAS STATION. THE RESTAURANTS ON THAT NORTHEAST SIDE. AS FAR AS DELAYS GO AT THIS INTERSECTION, IT ACTUALLY OPERATES PRETTY WELL GRANTED ALL THE TRAFFIC THAT GETS PUSHED THROUGH HERE DURING THE PEAK HOURS WE DO HAVE SOME FAILING MOVEMENTS. THERE IS SOME CONGESTION CERTAINLY DURING THE RUSH HOURS BUT GENERALLY IT DOES FUNCTION WELL. WE DO HAVE SOME QUEUES FOR LEFT TURN LANES THAT MIGHT EXCEED STORAGE CAPACITY PERIODICALLY DURING THE PEAKS BUT OPERATES QUITE ACCEPTABLY AS FAR AS THE CRASH HISTORY AT THIS INTERSECTION IT'S ALL VERY GOOD NEWS. THE CRASH RATE AT THIS INTERSECTION IS SIGNIFICANTLY LESS THAN THE AVERAGE CRASH RATE FOR SIGNALIZED INTERSECTIONS ACROSS THE STATE . WE'VE ONLY SEEN EIGHT CRASHES AT THE INTERSECTION OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS AND OVER A FULL TEN YEAR HISTORY WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY PEDESTRIAN OR BIKE CRASHES. WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY IDENTIFIABLE CRASH TRENDS DUE TO THE LOW VOLUME OF CRASHES AND SOME OF THOSE HIGH SPEED RIGHT TURN AREAS ALSO DON'T HAVE ANY SIGNIFICANT CRASH TRENDS. SO WHILE THE INTERSECTION MIGHT FEEL UNSAFE IT IS OPERATING NOMINALLY SAFE. SO GETTING TO THE GOOD STUFF WITH SOME OF THE ALTERNATIVES THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE, ALL OF THESE ARE LONG TERM ALTERNATIVES WHERE WE'RE RECONSTRUCTING PORTIONS OF THE INTERSECTION MOVING CURB LINES, TAKING AWAY LANES, THINGS LIKE THAT. OUR FIRST ALTERNATIVE IS LEFT TURN LANE REDUCTIONS ON TWO OF THE LEGS. GOING BACK TO THE POINT ON THE HIGH VOLUME OF TRAFFIC AT THIS INTERSECTION WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO IMPROVE PEDESTRIAN COMFORT AT SAFETY AN INTERSECTION USUALLY THE EASIEST WAY TO DO THAT IS TO MAKE THE INTERSECTION SMALLER BECAUSE OF THE SHEER VOLUME OF TRAFFIC HERE THAT'S REALLY DIFFICULT TO DO. SO WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT HERE ARE THE TWO LOWEST VOLUME MOVEMENTS AT THE INTERSECTION WHICH ARE THAT NORTHBOUND LEFT TURN AND THAT WESTBOUND LEFT TURN. SO BOTH OF THOSE HAVE DOUBLE LEFT TURN LANES TODAY THIS CONCEPT WOULD PROPOSE TO REMOVE ONE OF THOSE LEFT TURN LANES TO CREATE A SINGLE LEFT TURN LANE WHICH WOULD TAKE AWAY ONE LANE THAT A PEDESTRIAN HAVE TO CROSS CREATE A LARGE CENTER REFUGE ISLAND TO MAKE THAT SPACE A LITTLE BIT MORE COMFORTABLE. IN ADDITION TO THOSE TWO IMPROVEMENTS WE'D ALSO TAKE AWAY TWO THREE LANES ACROSS THE EAST LEG TO MAKE THAT CROSSING A LITTLE BIT SHORTER AS WELL. SO ADVANTAGES OF THIS CONCEPT WE DO DECREASE THE CROSSING EXPOSURES ON THOSE TWO LEGS. WE DO HAVE LARGE REFUGE ISLANDS ON THOSE LEGS AS WELL AND YOU'LL SEE IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER TWO ALTERNATIVES THIS IS THE LEAST IMPACTFUL AND LEAST EXPENSIVE ALTERNATIVE OF THE THREE DISADVANTAGES HERE. WE'RE NOT TOUCHING TWO OF THE LEGS THE NORTH LEG AND THE WEST LEG WOULD REMAIN AS IS AS WOULD THE HIGH SPEED CHANNELIZED RIGHT TURN LANES THAT WE HAVE ON ALL FOUR CORNERS. SO NO BENEFITS THERE AS FAR AS THAT IMPACTING THOSE LEFT TURN LANES THAT WE'RE REDUCING BY HALF. WE'RE REDUCING THE OUR ABILITY TO STORE LEFT TURNERS IN THOSE STORAGE BAYS BY HALF. SO PERIODICALLY DURING THE PEAK HOURS WE MAY SEE THOSE QUEUES BACK INTO THE THROUGH LANES AND BLOCK THROUGH MOVEMENT TRAFFIC. SO OUR SECOND ALTERNATIVE IS A BIT MORE AGGRESSIVE AND RECONSTRUCT HITTING THE RIGHT TURN LANE AREAS WITH A MORE MODERN DESIGN CALLED A LOW ENTRY ANGLE RIGHT TURN LANE THE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE AND WHAT'S OUT THERE TODAY YOU'LL NOTICE THEY'RE MUCH SMALLER, THE RADIUS IS MUCH TIGHTER AND THE ANGLE AT WHICH THEY MEET THE CROSS STREET IS MUCH LOWER AND THAT'S GOT TO IMPACTS ON HOW VEHICLES TRAVEL THROUGH THERE ONE BECAUSE THAT ANGLE IS SO MUCH LOWER YOU CANNOT DRIVE THROUGH THAT TURN LANE AT SUCH A HIGH RATE OF SPEED LIKE YOU CAN TODAY. THE OTHER IMPACT OF THAT LOW ENTRY ANGLE IS NOW WHEN YOU'RE GETTING TO THAT YIELD POINT OR THAT MERGE POINT YOU'RE NOT LOOKING OVER YOUR SHOULDER TO SEE TRAFFIC ONCOMING AND FINDING YOUR GAP. YOU'RE YOU'RE MORE STRAIGHT ON YOUR FIELD OF VISION IS MORE ALONG THE PATH OF YOUR VEHICLE. SO WHAT THAT DOES IS IT FORCES THE DRIVER TO ACTUALLY SEE AND VISUALIZE THAT PEDESTRIAN CROSSING RATHER THAN LOOKING OVER YOUR SHOULDER TO SEE ONCOMING TRAFFIC. SO BENEFITS THERE WE'VE GOT REDUCE TRAVEL SPEEDS AND IMPROVE SIGHTLINES IN THOSE RIGHT TURN AREAS. WE DO REDUCE THE CROSSING DISTANCE ON THE EAST AND WEST LEGS BY REMOVING THAT NORTHERNMOST WESTBOUND THROUGH LANE AND BECAUSE THIS CONCEPT ISN'T ACTUALLY TAKING AWAY ANY TRAVEL LANES WE'RE JUST CHANGING GEOMETRY. WE'RE MAINTAINING THE I GUESS AMOUNT OF THROUGHPUT THAT THIS INTERSECTION HAS. WE'RE NOT IMPACTING DELAY AND PERFORMANCE VERY MUCH AT ALL DRAWBACKS HERE WE STILL DO HAVE CHANNELIZED RIGHT TURN LANES IN SOME FORM OR FASHION . SOME FOLKS JUST DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH THESE AND THAT'S A FAIR CONCERN. IN ADDITION TO THAT, WHAT THIS GEOMETRY DOES IS IT MAKES THOSE RIGHT TURN LANE ISLANDS, THOSE LITTLE TRIANGLES ON THE CORNERS IT MAKES THEM MUCH SMALLER THAN THEY ARE TODAY. THE ONES THAT ARE OUT THERE TODAY WHILE THEY HAVE THEIR DRAWBACKS, THEY'RE HUGE AREAS. SO WHEN YOU'RE SITTING ON THAT ISLAND WAITING FOR THE WALK SIGN TO COME UP YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF SPACE AND A LOT OF SEPARATION FOR MOVING TRAFFIC. SO THESE SMALLER DESIGNS MIGHT FEEL SLIGHTLY LESS COMFORTABLE AS YOU'RE WAITING FOR YOUR WALK SIGN. OUR LAST ALTERNATIVE HERE IS A MODIFICATION OF THE SECOND ALTERNATIVE WHERE THE NORTHERN HALF OF THE INTERSECTION REMAINS THE SAME AS ALTERNATIVE TWO BUT IN THE SOUTHERN HALF WE REPLACE THOSE RIGHT TURN LANES WITH A MORE TRADITIONAL DESIGN WHERE THE RIGHT TURN LANE WOULD BE ADJACENT TO THE THROUGH LANE THE BIGGEST ADVANTAGE HERE IS NOW RIGHT TURN LANES HAVE TO OBEY THE TRAFFIC SIGNAL THAN RATHER THAN A YIELD SIGN. SO THAT GIVES OUR ENGINEERS AS I GUESS THE MOST AMOUNT OF TOOLS IN OUR ARSENAL TO CONTROL THOSE RIGHT TURNERS WHETHER THAT BE WITH SIGNAL PHASES AND SIGNAL TIMINGS OR WITH NO RIGHT TURN ON RED SIGNAGE, THINGS OF THAT NATURE SO IT OPENS UP THE DOOR TO DO MORE THINGS AS FAR AS PEDESTRIAN SAFETY AT THE SIGNAL THE TRADITIONAL TURN LANE DESIGN ON THAT SOUTHERN HALF ALSO BEST ACCOMMODATES A FUTURE CYCLE TRACK OR BIKE TRAIL ON THAT LEG AS BIKES NOW CAN JUST MAKE THAT CROSSING IN ONE FLUID MOVEMENT RATHER THAN THREE SEPARATE MOVEMENTS . DRAWBACKS OF THIS ONE WE'RE ACTUALLY MAKING THE CROSSING DISTANCE LONGER ON THE WEST AND SOUTH LEG SO THE IMPACTS OF THAT ARE I NOW HAVE TO CROSS MORE LANES OF TRAFFIC. I HAVE TO GO FARTHER DISTANCE AND BECAUSE I'M GOING A FARTHER DISTANCE THE DURATION OF THE WALK SIGN HAS TO BE LONGER SO THAT IMPACTS THE DELAY AND THE PERFORMANCE OF THE WHOLE SIGNAL SYSTEM. WE DO STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TURN LANES THOSE CHANNELIZED ONES ON THE NORTHERN HALF AND THEN THE TRADITIONAL RIGHT TURN LANE DESIGN HAS SLIGHTLY LESS CAPACITY THAN AT THE CHANNELIZED RIGHT TURN DESIGN . SO WHERE THAT GETS PROBLEMATIC IS ON THAT EASTBOUND RIGHT TURN LANE WE DO SEE WITH THAT LOWER CAPACITY WE DO SEE SOME QUEUING ISSUES IN THE RUSH HOUR WHEN WE'VE GOT A HIGH VOLUME OF RIGHT HAND TURNS SO WE COULD SEE QUEUES BACKING INTO THE UPSTREAM INTERSECTION JUST TO THE WEST HERE A NORMAN CENTER DRIVE. IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A FATAL FLAW OF THIS BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE'D HAVE TO FIGURE OUT ONCE WE GET INTO THE DESIGN. SO NEXT STEPS WITH OUR STUDY WILL FURTHER REFINE OUR ALTERNATIVES, MAKE TWEAKS HERE AND THERE. WE'LL TAKE A STEP BACK AND LOOK AT MORE OF AN 84TH STREET CORRIDOR CONTEXT AS FAR AS HOW DOES A FUTURE CYCLE TRACK OR BIKE TRAIL WORK WITH THESE ALTERNATIVES? WHERE DO WE CROSS PEOPLE OVER TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE USING THAT SOUTHERN CROSSING SINCE THAT IS PROBABLY THE PREFERRED LOCATION HERE AS FAR AS AN EAST-WEST MOVEMENT GOES WILL GENERATE A FEW ALTERNATIVE COST ESTIMATES FOR THE VARIOUS ALTERNATIVES TO GIVE A SENSE OF OF WHAT THESE MIGHT TAKE TO BUILD WE'LL ALSO LOOK AT POTENTIAL SHORT TERM ALTERNATIVES STRIPING STRIPING SIGNAGE, LOW COST THINGS THAT CAN BE IMPLEMENTED IN THE NEAR TERM TO GET US FROM FROM NOW TO THAT LONG TERM ALTERNATIVE . AND THEN THE LAST PART WILL BE WRAPPING IT ALL UP WITH A STUDY REPORT TO SUMMARIZE THE FINDINGS AND AND DOCUMENT WHAT WAS STUDIED RIGHT. RIGHT. AND THEN I JUST HAVE A FINAL SLIDE HERE JUST TO SUMMARIZE KIND OF SOME ADDITIONAL CONTEXT OR STEPS WITH THIS PROCESS. AND SO IT WAS AS IT WAS KIND OF MENTIONED STAFF KIND OF FELT LIKE THE PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE PROPOSAL DIDN'T QUITE MEET A COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS TO IMPLEMENT. SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE LOOKING AT THESE AT GREAT ALTERNATIVES BUT BECAUSE IT'S IDENTIFIED IN OUR NORTHERN DALE LAKE DISTRICT PLAN TO HAVE A PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE, THE CITY HAS CONTINUED TO PLAN FOR THAT IN ITS CIP AND SO PLANNING STAFF ULTIMATELY MADE A DETERMINATION THAT FOR THE CITY TO STOP PROGRAMING IT IN ITS CIP WE NEEDED TO REMOVE THE REFERENCE IN THE PLAN AND SO KIND OF DEPENDING ON YOUR FEEDBACK TONIGHT AND THE COUNCIL'S FEEDBACK, THE IDEAS TO INCORPORATE THAT TO REMOVE ANY REFERENCES FROM THE PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE IN THE PLAN AND AMEND THAT TO INCORPORATE SOME JUST BROADER GUIDELINES AROUND AT GRADE IMPROVEMENTS RELATED TO BICYCLE PEDESTRIAN SAFETY AND CONNECTIVITY. AND SO WE WOULD ALSO PLAN IT'S ON THE 2025 WORK PLAN TO HAVE A BROADER DISCUSSION AROUND THE NORMANDALE LAKE DISTRICT PLAN AND KIND OF DO ANOTHER UPDATE AND KIND OF SEEING WHERE WE'RE AT JUST BECAUSE OF THE CIP TIMELINE STARTING THIS FALL. IT JUST UNFORTUNATELY DIDN'T QUITE NICELY ALIGN TO DO THIS AS PART OF THE BROADER UPDATE. SO WE'RE GOING TO BRING THAT AT A DIFFERENT TIME. AND SO FOR KIND OF THE PURPOSES OF TONIGHT OR WHEN YOU WOULD SEE THIS AGAIN AT A FUTURE MEETING, IT'S REALLY TO HELP FRAME THE DISCUSSION. WE ARE JUST REALLY TALKING ABOUT THIS INTERSECTION AND KIND OF PEDESTRIAN AND BICYCLE IMPROVEMENTS AND NOT SO MUCH AROUND THE KIND OF BROADER CHANGES IN THE NORM IN THE LAKE DISTRICT THAT WILL BE A SEPARATE CONVERSATION LATER ON. BUT SO THAT IS ALSO JUST SOME OF THE REASONS WHY YOU'RE YOU'RE SEEING THIS TONIGHT AND WE'RE LOOKING FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. AND SO WITH THAT WE DO HAVE JUST SOME OPEN ENDED QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION AROUND EACH ALTERNATIVE. BUT I GUESS I JUST WANTED TO OPEN IT UP TO IN CASE ANYONE HAD ANY KIND OF CLARIFYING QUESTIONS FOR STAFF OR THE CONSULTANT KIND OF BEFORE WE DIVE INTO THAT. EXCELLENT. THANK YOU. I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS BUT ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ? I WANT TO GO FIRST. COMMISSIONER OGDEN OH, THAT WAS AMIGO FIRST. OKAY. MY FIRST QUESTION IS RELATED TO BUS TRAFFIC. WHAT ARE THE WHAT'S BUS TRAFFIC HERE ON THIS INTERSECTION LOOK LIKE AND IS THERE ANY SHOULDER YOU SHOULD OF A BUS IN THIS AREA DURING PEAK TIMES? YEAH. REALLY? YEAH. OKAY IT LOOKS LIKE I THINK THIS IS OKAY WE DON'T THINK THEY USE THE SHOULDER CURRENTLY THAT'S SOMETHING WE CAN CERTAINLY LOOK INTO. THERE'S CERTAINLY BUS ROUTES THAT GO THROUGH HERE BUT ALL OF THESE DESIGNS WOULD BE I GUESS CONDUCIVE TO BUS TRAFFIC AND MAINTAIN THOSE MOVEMENTS. GREAT. THANK YOU. IF YOU WERE TO ROUGHLY ASSIGN I'M JUST TALKING THINKING ABOUT WHEN YOU GO TO A RESTAURANT YOU GET THE $1 SIGN, $2 SIGN, $3 SIGN FOR A DOLLAR SIGN IF YOU WERE TO ROUGHLY PUT A DOLLAR SIGN NUMBER ON THESE ALTERNATIVE FEES, WHAT WOULD THEY LOOK LIKE? THAT'S A I LIKE THE WAY YOU PHRASED THAT QUESTION. I WOULD SAY ALTERNATIVE ONE IS LIKELY $1 SIGN AND THEN ALTERNATIVES TWO AND THREE ARE PROBABLY ONE AND A HALF TO $2 SIGNS. >> OKAY, THAT'S HELPFUL. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS CONSTRUCTED? THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIR. NOT TOTALLY SURE WHO THE QUESTION IS FOR SO I'LL ASK MR. CASSIDY. HOW IS THE CITY ULTIMATELY GOING TO MAKE THE DECISION ON THIS? SO YOU'RE GOING TO GET FEEDBACK FROM US. YOU'RE GOING TO GET FEEDBACK FROM COUNCIL ARE WE THE FINAL DECISION MAKERS IS THERE IS BOLTON AND MAKE THE FINAL DECISION MAKERS AFTER THEIR ENGINEERING ANALYSIS WHO'S WHO ULTIMATELY OR WHAT GOES INTO THE FINAL DECISION YEAH CHAIR ALBRECHT COMMISSIONER COOKED IN I WOULD SAY IT'S A MIX OF ALL OF WHAT YOU MENTIONED SO WE'RE WE'RE ASKING FOR FEEDBACK FROM THE PLANNING COMMISSION TONIGHT ASKING FOR FEEDBACK FROM THE COUNCIL ON A DIRECTION AND THEN OF COURSE BOLTON AND AND THE CONSULTANT GROUP WORKING WITH OUR ENGINEERING STAFF AND PLANNING STAFF KIND OF INCORPORATE ALL OF THAT AGAIN KIND OF LIKE WAS MENTIONED KIND OF THINKING ABOUT THE BROADER 84TH CORRIDOR AND HOW THE CYCLE TRACK MIGHT TIE IN TO SOME OF THESE ALTERNATIVES THAT ALL KIND OF COME TOGETHER IN LIKELY KIND OF THE PREFERRED ALTERNATIVE THAT STAFF WOULD MOVE WOULD LIKE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH. AND THEN FROM THERE WE WOULD KIND OF PRESENT THAT WITH THE KIND OF PROPOSED AMENDMENT LANGUAGE IN THE NORMAN DALE DISTRICT PLAN BACK TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND CITY COUNCIL. SO SPECIFIC TO THE THREE ALTERNATIVES, CITY COUNCIL IS NOT TELLING YOU WHICH ONE WE'RE GOING TO DO. YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE OUR FEEDBACK AND LAYER THAT WITH THE ENGINEERING ANALYSIS TO ULTIMATELY REACH WHAT WE FEEL IS THE BEST DECISION. YEAH. CHAIR ALBRECHT COMMISSIONER COOKED IN THAT THAT IS MY UNDERSTANDING AND HOW WE'RE APPROACHING THIS. ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS BEFORE WE GET INTO THEIR QUESTIONS? WE'RE READY FOR YOUR QUESTIONS. ALL RIGHT. SOUNDS GOOD. SO YEAH, WE JUST REALLY HAD JUST KIND OF A GENERAL OPEN ENDED QUESTIONS FOR EACH ALTERNATIVE AND SO THE QUESTIONS ARE THE SAME ON EACH . WE'LL START WITH THE FIRST ALTERNATIVE AND IT'S JUST REALLY GETTING SOME FEEDBACK ON THE ELEMENTS THAT YOU LIKE ABOUT THIS ALTERNATIVE AND MAYBE WHAT YOU DON'T LIKE OR WHAT YOU THINK IS MISSING AND WHAT KIND OF DO THAT FOR EACH ONE JUST TO KIND OF HELP GIVE US SOME DIRECTION. SO THIS FIRST ALTERNATIVE LIKE IT WAS MENTIONED REDUCES A LEFT TURN LANE ON TWO OF THE SEGMENTS TO THEN INSTALL KIND OF ROUGH MEDIAN REFUGE ISLANDS ON TWO OF THOSE SEGMENTS. CAN I ASK ANOTHER QUESTION? YES. BASED ON WHAT I'M HEARING AS YOU KNOW, ZERO BIKE PED ISSUE IN THE LAST TEN YEARS NOW ARE THERE ANY ISSUES MAYBE CRASHES ZERO AND OVERALL OF EIGHT CRASHES SEEMS LIKE A BIT OF A SMALL PROBLEM . ARE THERE OTHER ALTERNATIVES? I'M JUST THINKING THAT GET THE DRIVERS ATTENTION MORE READILY LIKE THE FLASHING LIGHTS OR THINGS LIKE THAT AND MAYBE THIS THERE'S TOO MUCH TRAFFIC HERE TOO TOO MUCH VOLUME OF TRAFFIC TO ACTUALLY HAVE THOSE LIGHTS BE EFFECTIVE. BUT I'M THINKING ABOUT OTHER PLACES WHERE I'M LIKE OH THE LIGHTS ARE ON. THERE'S A PEDESTRIAN AROUND. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT'S FEASIBLE HERE? YEAH, YEAH. SO YOU DON'T TYPICALLY SEE LIKE THE FLASHING BEACONS AT SIGNAL SYSTEMS IT'S USUALLY ONE OR THE OTHER. THOSE FLASHING BEACONS ARE TYPICALLY FOR MID-BLOCK CROSSINGS OR UNCONTROLLED CROSSINGS. BUT HERE WHERE WE HAVE A TRAFFIC SIGNAL THAT'S THE OVERRIDING TRAFFIC CONTROL DEVICE. WE COULD LOOK AT THOSE BEACONS ON THE CHANNELIZED RIGHT TURN LANES SINCE THAT'S TECHNICALLY AN UNCONTROLLED CROSSING AREA BUT BEING CAREFUL TO AVOID SETTING PRECEDENT ON PUTTING THOSE EVERYWHERE, IT IS CERTAINLY A SPECIAL CASE IN THAT WE HAVE SUCH A HIGH VOLUME ON THOSE AREAS. SO THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE CONSIDERING. GREAT. THANK YOU. COMMISSIONER HOOTON I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS ALSO FOLLOWING UP ON COMMISSIONER ULBRICHT'S CONVERSATION A LITTLE BIT. SO IF THE CRASH DATA IS FAIRLY LOW, IS THERE AN ALTERNATIVE TO DO NOTHING OR IS THAT NOT RECOMMENDED? IT'S A GOOD QUESTION. GOOD QUESTION. YEAH. WE ALL WONDER THAT. YES, WE CERTAINLY COULD DO COULD DO NOTHING AT AT THIS INTERSECTION AND JUST JUST REMOVE THE PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE FROM THE DISTRICT PLAN IF THAT'S IF THAT'S THE WAY THAT THE PLANNING COMMISSION WANTS TO TO RECOMMEND THESE ADDITIONAL IMPROVEMENTS WOULD HELP IMPROVE THE PEDESTRIAN EXPERIENCE AT THE INTERSECTION . SO WE DIDN'T INCLUDE THAT AS AS AN ALTERNATIVE BUT THAT THAT IS AN OPTION. OKAY. THANK YOU MADAM CHAIR. I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION. GO FOR THE PEDESTRIAN, MR. LARSEN YOU SAID I THINK THERE WAS 200 PEOPLE OBSERVED AT THE INTERSECTION AS PEDESTRIANS. DO YOU HAVE A ROUGH IDEA OF WHAT PERCENTAGE WERE ON THE SOUTHEAST CORNER? THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE THE LOWEST VALUE CORNER OF THIS INTERSECTION. I CAN'T SAY FOR SURE I KNOW THE NORTH CROSSING WAS THE HIGHEST USE THE SOUTH CROSSING WAS THE SECOND HIGHEST AND THEN THE I GUESS THE TO NORTH SOUTH CROSSINGS ON EITHER SIDE WERE ROUGHLY A DOZEN OR TWO PEDESTRIANS EACH. AND JUST FOR CLARIFICATION, WHEN YOU SAY NORTH CROSSING, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE EAST WEST CROSSING ON THE NORTH PART OF THE INTERSECT. YES. YOU RIGHT. THAT KIND OF SURPRISED ME, MR. CHAIR. WHAT IT SURPRISES ME TOO. YEAH. I MEAN THAT'S A COUPLE DOZEN IS NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE 200 IS QUITE A BIT OF PEOPLE AND I CAN IMAGINE WORKING AT THE OFFICE PARK WANTING TO GO TO THE HOLIDAY OR WHATEVER THAT RESTAURANT IS OVER ON THAT SIDE BUT YOU WOULD THINK THERE WOULD BE MORE ON THE WEST SIDE FOR PEOPLE IN THE OFFICE PARK POTENTIALLY WANTING TO ENJOY THE PARK DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THAT'S THE CASE. I DON'T LOVE THIS. I DON'T LOVE THIS OPTION. >> THE MORE WE I THINK THE MORE WE SLOW DOWN TRAFFIC MOVEMENT. I THINK THE MORE DRIVERS GET FRUSTRATED AND THEN MAKE DUMB DECISIONS LIKE TAKING A QUICK LEFT WHILE IT'S VERY MUCH READ THAT CONCERNS ME FOR PEDESTRIAN EXPERIENCE RATHER THAN SOME OF THE OTHER ALTERNATIVES. SO THIS ONE I'M KIND OF I'M I'M YELLOW ON THIS ONE COMMISSIONER LOOKED AT MY WATCH I THINK WE CALLED IT AMBER. AMBER YES. AMBER THE TRAFFIC COMMISSIONER MCGOVERN SORRY. I THINK YOU CAN COMMISSIONER MCGOVERN I AM ALL IN FAVOR OF NOT DOING ANYTHING AS WELL. WE HAVE LOW RATES OF CRASH. WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, A GOOD AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WALKING THROUGH THIS AREA DISTURBANCE OF TRAFFIC I THINK WILL CAUSE ACCIDENTS AND THAT'S WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO SEE A RATE THAT WE DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. SO EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE FLOWING WELL IN THIS AREA AND I JUST CAN'T WRAP MY HEAD AROUND SPENDING A $1 OR $2 AMOUNT ON THESE ALTERNATIVES. COMMISSIONER LISA YEAH I HAD A QUICK QUESTION AND THEN FOLLOWED UP BY COMMENT. SO ON THE SIDEWALKS THAT GO FROM SOUTH TO NORTH OR NORTH TO SOUTH DEPENDING HOW YOU LOOK AT IT BUT DOES IT IS THERE ANY FURTHER SIDEWALK NORTH OF THE KIND OF EAST WEST SIDEWALK? SO LIKE I WOULD ASSUME SO BECAUSE IT'S HIGHWAY BUT DO PEOPLE GO PAST IS THERE ANY MORE SIDEWALK AFTER THAT? IS THAT WHERE ENDS IF THAT MAKES SENSE? CHAIR I'LL BET. COMMISSIONER HE SAID I GUESS JUST A CLARIFICATION ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ON NORMANDALE BOULEVARD AS IT TURNS INTO HIGHWAY 100 AND GOING NORTH? YEAH. I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS SIDEWALK ON ON NORMANDALE BECAUSE IT'S A FREEWAY AND THERE WOULDN'T BE PEDESTRIAN OR BICYCLE ACCESS IT LOOKS LIKE IN THE IMAGE THERE MIGHT BE A SIDEWALK THAT KIND OF FUNCTIONS INTERNALLY TO THE OFFICE PARK THERE ON THE NORTHWEST CORNER BUT THERE WOULD BE NO LIKE SIDEWALK OR BICYCLE FACILITY ON NORMANDY BOULEVARD ITSELF KIND OF NORTH OF THIS INTERSECTION. OKAY. SO FOR MOST PEOPLE GOING FROM SOUTH TO NORTH USUALLY TURN WEST OR EAST BASICALLY I WOULD ASSUME. OKAY. AND SO MY COMMENT IS I KNOW WHEN YOU'RE GETTING OFF HIGHWAY 100 GOING SOUTH OR TURNING RIGHT THAT LANE CLOSEST OR THE TWO LANES I BELIEVE IT'S A DOUBLE LEFT LANE DURING PEAK HOURS I TRAVEL THAT ROUTE A LOT AND IT GETS REALLY PACKED WHERE IT IMPACTS THE OTHER TWO LANES GOING STRAIGHT SOUTH. AND SO IF FOR MY UNDERSTANDING A LANE WOULD BE REMOVED ON 84TH RIGHT DID YOU KNOW BECAUSE I BASICALLY IF IT IS I THINK THAT WOULD MAKE THAT PROBLEM A PROBLEM IF IT'S NOT ALREADY YEAH NO PROBLEM. YEAH YEAH CHAIR OF A COMMISSIONER IS IN THIS ALTERNATIVE WHERE THEY WOULD BE REMOVING A LEFT TURN LANE IS ON 84TH STREET SO IF YOU WERE GOING WESTBOUND ON 84TH AND YOU'RE TURNING LEFT TO GO SOUTH ON NORMAN DALE THAT WOULD REMOVE A LANE AND THEN IF YOU'RE HEADING NORTHBOUND ON NORMAN DALE TO TURN LEFT OR WESTBOUND ON TO 84TH WOULD REMOVE A LANE BUT SO THE IF I'M UNDERSTANDING THE LEFT TURN MOVEMENT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT COMING SOUTH ON NORMAN DALE THERE WOULD NOT BE A REMOVAL OF A LEFT TURN LANE THERE OKAY AND THEN LAST COMMENT IF YOU DON'T MIND GO FOR IT I'M SURE. YES. OVERALL I IF YOU KNOW OBVIOUSLY LOOK AT THE SAFETY HISTORY IF IF IT'S BEEN PRETTY SAFE RELATIVELY SAFE I DON'T I WOULDN'T SUPPORT LIKE CHANGING IT I THINK IT'S UNNECESSARY BY OPINION I KNOW THERE'S LIKE PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVE CONCERNS MAYBE PEDESTRIANS RIGHT THAT EXPRESS SAFETY CONCERNS WHICH I UNDERSTAND AND YOU KNOW YEAH I UNDERSTAND BUT I JUST THINK SPENDING MONEY UNNECESSARILY WHEN WE DON'T NEED TO ISN'T MAYBE NOT WISE. THAT'S MY PERSONAL OPINION SO AS A CITY BUT YEAH. THANK YOU COMMISSIONER GOOD TO THANK YOU MADAM CHAIR. SO I HAVE SOME JUST KIND OF GENERAL COMMENTS THOUGHTS ABOUT EVERYTHING. SO YOU STILL LIVE IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS I WOULD AVOID THIS INTERSECTION. THERE'S A PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE JUST NORTH OF THE IMAGE HERE THAT CROSSES OVER NORMAN DALE THAT WAS A LOT SAFER WAY TO GET OVER TO THE OFFICE PARK AND DOWN INTO THE PARK WAS TO TAKE WHAT I BELIEVE IS ACTUALLY AMERICAN BOULEVARD THAT BRIDGE THAT CROSSES OVER NORMAN DALE. SO THAT'S A CERTAINLY MORE COMFORTABLE PLACE TO CROSS THAN THIS BUT I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO CROSS HERE IF YOU'RE WORKING IN THE OFFICE PARK OR WHATEVER AND OBVIOUSLY THE DATA SUPPORTS THAT PEOPLE ARE CROSSING HERE. I ASKED THE QUESTION OF WHETHER DOING NOTHING IS AN OPTION. I DON'T NECESSARILY SUPPORT DOING NOTHING. SAFETY IS SUCH A HARD THING BECAUSE LIKE IT'S EASY TO SAY WE DON'T NEED TO DO THAT UNTIL SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS AND YOU'RE GOING OH MY GOD, WHY DON'T WE DO SOMETHING AND SO LIKE IT'S A SAFETY IS SUCH A HARD THING WHERE YOU'RE TRYING TO PROTECT AGAINST THE FUTURE WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW SOMETHING BAD IS GOING TO HAPPEN BUT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS PRUDENT TO KEEP IT SAFE SO NOTHING DOES BAD DOES HAPPEN. SO IT'S LIKE A VERY NUANCED AND COMPLICATED THING AND SO THE OTHER THING I STRUGGLE WITH AND THE REASON I ASKED MR. CASSIDY WHO AND HOW WE MAKE THIS DECISION IS BECAUSE I ALWAYS GET UNEASY WHEN WE AS LAYPEOPLE ARE ASKED TO MAKE ENGINEERING DECISIONS LIKE I JUST KIND OF FIND IT A LITTLE IT'S JUST OUT OF MY LANE. I DON'T HAVE EXPERTISE IN TRAFFIC DESIGN AND I REALLY RELY HEAVILY ON OUR OUR ENGINEERS AND FOR THEM TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION. SO HONESTLY IF I TOTALLY HAD IT MY WAY THE CITY COUNCIL WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. WE WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. THIS IS AN ENGINEERING BASED DECISION AND THEY DO WHAT'S BEST BY CODE AND BY BEST PRACTICE AND THAT WE TOTALLY LEAVE THIS UP TO OUR TRAFFIC ENGINEERS. THAT'S NOT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S BEING ASKED OF US. SO I GUESS I'LL PROVIDE SOME COMMENTS RELUCTANTLY BUT IF IT WERE TOTALLY UP TO ME I WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THAT THIS WOULD BE AN ENGINEERING DECISION. SO WITH ALL OF THAT SAID, I GUESS I'M OKAY WITH THIS. IT'S I THINK I LIKE OTHER ALTERNATIVES BETTER BUT I GUESS IF LIKE BEING THERE'S A $1 SIGN THING TO ME IF IT'S ONLY $1 SIGN AND WE MAYBE HAVE A CHANCE TO MAKE IT SAFER, I'M OKAY WITH IT IF WE GO TO THE NEXT ALTERNATIVE. YEAH I WAS JUST TRYING TO GET THERE. MY COMPUTER'S DELAYING I GUESS WHILE THIS IS COMING UP. THERE WE GO. YEAH. AGAIN, IT'S A SIMILAR QUESTION I GUESS MAYBE ANOTHER WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT IS HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THESE LOW ANGLE CHANNELIZED RIGHT TURNS VERSUS THE KIND OF EXISTING CHANNELIZED RIGHT TURN LANES THAT ARE OUT THERE TODAY. SO THAT'S REALLY THE MAIN CHANGE HERE WITH THIS ALTERNATIVE TOO. IF YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT THAT ELEMENT OF HAVING A LOW ANGLE ENTRY COMPARED TO WHAT'S OUT THERE TODAY? >> COMMISSIONER OGDEN I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS MADAM CHAIR, I WAS MOST SURPRISED BY IN THE STAFF REPORT WE RECEIVED AND FROM THE CONSULTANT WAS THAT THERE HAVEN'T BEEN MORE AND MORE ACCIDENTS GOING WESTBOUND ON I-84 TO NORTHBOUND ON NORMAN DALE THAT VERY FAST AND THEN YOU HAVE TO MERGE THEY'RE GOING PRETTY HIGH SPEED AS PEOPLE ARE SPEEDING UP GETTING ON TO WHAT TURNS INTO BE 100 AND SO I DO THINK THIS THIS DESIGN WOULD CERTAINLY MAKE US SAFER BECAUSE IT'S SO AVAILABLE TODAY THAT PEOPLE THINK THEY CAN JUST KIND OF MERGE AND PEOPLE ARE GOING PRETTY DARN FAST GETTING READY TO GET ON TO WHAT IS 100. SO I DO LIKE THIS FROM THAT STANDPOINT BUT THAT'S A TRAFFIC QUESTION DOESN'T REALLY HAVE IT'S NOT REALLY A PEDESTRIAN THING SO I DON'T KNOW I AGAIN I THINK I LIKE THIS I DON'T I DIDN'T LOVE ANY OF THE OPTIONS TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. I WAS REALLY HOPING TO SEE SOMETHING WHERE THERE WAS A REFUGE ISLAND ON EVERY MOVEMENT, EVERY PEDESTRIAN MOVEMENT BUT SOUNDS LIKE THAT'S NOT AN ENGINEERING ACCOMPLISHMENT THAT CAN BE MADE HERE. SO WE'RE KIND OF DEALING WITH WHAT WE'VE GOT. THE OTHER THOUGHTS ON THIS ALTERNATIVE THIS FEELS OKAY I LIKE THE GEOMETRY OF IT BUT I DO APPRECIATE COMMISSIONER CAPTAIN'S THOUGHTS ABOUT NOT BEING A TRAFFIC ENGINEER BECAUSE I AM NOT A TRAFFIC ENGINEER. I'M NOT EVEN AN ENGINEER SO I DON'T EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS FIELD AND I THINK THAT SLOWING DOWN THE TRAFFIC IN THE THESE CHANNELIZED RIGHT TURNS IS A GOOD THING REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THE GOAL IS TO INCREASE SAFETY OR TO SLOW DOWN TRAFFIC GENERALLY IT FEELS LIKE THE GOAL HERE THOUGH IS TO SLOW DOWN THE TRAFFIC WHICH THEN AGAIN I GUESS INCREASE THE SAFETY FOR A PEDESTRIAN. BUT I THINK THE THE IDEA OF CROSSING AT A FREE RIGHT FOR A PEDESTRIAN IS NOT AN IDEAL SCENARIO REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE GEOMETRY IS. AND MY THOUGHT HIS THOUGHTS ON THAT ONE, WE MOVE TO THREE. ALL RIGHT. WE'RE MOVING TO THREE. ALL RIGHT. AND THEN THREE AGAIN ON ON THIS ONE PROBABLY THE MAIN DIFFERENCES THERE ON THOSE KIND OF SOUTHERN PORTIONS WE WOULD BE REMOVING THE CHANNELIZED RIGHT TURN LANES AND HAVING A MORE TRADITIONAL RIGHT TURN LANE ON THE SOUTHERN PORTION OF THE INTERSECTION. SO I GUESS AGAIN KIND OF ON THIS ELEMENT DO YOU DO YOU LIKE THAT? DO YOU PREFER A TRADITIONAL RIGHT TURN VERSUS A CHANNELIZED RIGHT TURN? WHAT YOU DON'T LIKE ABOUT IT OR WHAT YOU THINK IS MISSING HERE? WELCOME. ANY FEEDBACK? COMMISSIONER MCGOVERN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT TRAFFIC SAFETY AND PEDESTRIAN BICYCLE SAFETY, I THINK THIS ONE IS NOT GOOD CUTTING OFF THOSE TURN LANES AND MAKING IT AN ACTUAL STOP TAKES THE FOCUS OFF OF LOOKING FOR PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU'RE LOOKING AT TRAFFIC COMING TOWARD YOU. I, I CAN'T WRAP MY HEAD AROUND THIS ONE. I DON'T LIKE IT. COMMISSIONER COOK THANKS MADAM CHAIR. ALSO HAVE SOME RESERVATIONS AGAIN, I DON'T FEEL SUPER STRONGLY ABOUT ANY OF THESE BUT ADDING A LANE SEEMS LIKE KIND OF A STEP BACKWARDS HERE. I THINK WHAT WE COULD ACCOMPLISH WITH ALTERNATE ALTERNATIVE NUMBER TWO IS IS KIND OF BETTER THAN THIS BUT I REALLY HATE TO USE WORDS LIKE BETTER BECAUSE THAT'S THAT'S THAT'S UNFAIR OF ME TO SAY THAT. COMMISSIONER YOU SIR. THANK YOU MADAM CHAIR. I GUESS THIS IS JUST MORE OVERALL FOR JUST OVERALL KIND OF ADDING TO WHAT I WAS SAYING EARLIER IF WE HAVE LET'S SAY DATA ON THE PASS I BELIEVE IT'S TEN YEARS RIGHT AND IT SHOWED NO MAJOR INCIDENTS WITH PEDESTRIANS OR BICYCLISTS THAT IS IF WE WERE TO CHANGE THIS I KNOW OUR INTENTION IS TO IMPROVE SAFETY BUT WHAT IF IT DID DOPS AT LEAST WITH WHAT IT IS CURRENTLY WE KNOW HOW IT IS OPERATING RIGHT IN TERMS OF SAFETY BUT WHAT IF THERE'S UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM OR I THINGS THAT HAPPEN? MY MAIN POINT IS THE WAY IT'S SET UP NOW IS WE KNOW THAT THERE HASN'T BEEN MAJOR SAFETY INCIDENTS SO IF WE DID INVEST IN CHANGE THIS I JUST FOLLOW THE CITY PLAN TO THE TEE RIGHT MAYBE TEN YEARS FROM NOW IT DOES IMPROVE MORE BUT MAYBE ALSO IT NOT YOU KNOW SO WITH ONE WE HAVE PRIOR HISTORY AND WITH OTHER WE DON'T BUT OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY HAS GOOD INTENT SO THAT'S KIND OF MY OVERALL STANDING. >> YEAH YEAH I AGREE WITH OTHER COMMISSIONERS ON THAT. THIS ONE IS PROBABLY IN MY OWN WELL SECOND TO LEAST FAVORITE PROBABLY I THINK ALTERNATIVE TWO IS PROBABLY IF WE'RE GOING TO PICK BETWEEN ALL THREE OF THEM I THINK THAT'S THE ONE THAT I WOULD GO WITH STILL NOT REALLY LOVE IT AND I THINK SO MAKES A REALLY GOOD POINT ABOUT IF THERE ISN'T AN ISSUE NOW ARE WE GOING TO BE CREATING AN ISSUE AGAIN, I'M NOT A TRAFFIC ENGINEER SO I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T HAVE EXPERTISE ABOUT WHAT POTENTIALLY COULD OR COULDN'T HAPPEN HERE. I HAVE NEVER CROSSED THE ROAD HERE. I'VE ONLY WALKED IN THE PARK SO I HAVE NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH IT EITHER. ANY OTHER THOUGHTS? COMMISSIONER MCGOVERN, IS THERE AN ALTERNATIVE FOR LIKE LEAVING EVERYTHING THE WAY IT IS AND BUILDING A BRIDGE SIMILAR THAT THE ONE THAT GOES FROM NORMAN 84TH FROM THE OFFICE PARK TO THE LAKE WOULD THAT BE SUFFICIENT ENOUGH WITHOUT CHANGING ANY OF THE TRAFFIC BUT JUST BUILDING A BRIDGE THAT THEY CAN GET ACROSS SAFELY? BUT AGAIN THE RATE OF CRASH IS SO LOW WHY CHANGE COMMISSIONER MCGOVERN ARE YOU REFERRING TO A PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE ACROSS NORMAN DALE BOULEVARD? YES OR OKAY THAT I MEAN I GUESS THAT'S WHAT'S ORIGINALLY IN THE DISTRICT PLAN FOR A LONG TERM OPTION IS IS A PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE ACROSS NORMAN DALE BOULEVARD THAT AS MENTIONED EARLIER THAT THAT WOULD BE SIGNIFICANT IMPACTS TO THE SURROUNDING PARKLANDS AND MAY PROVIDE AN INDIRECT PEDESTRIAN CROSSING WHICH MAY LEAD TO LOWER WATER USAGE THAN WE WOULD WANT FOR SUCH AN EXPENSIVE BRIDGE. SO THAT THAT WAS ONE REASON WE WERE EXPLORING AGREED TREATMENTS SUCH AS ALTERNATIVES 123 AT THE INTERSECTION INSTEAD OF THE PEDESTRIAN BRIDGE. >> OKAY. THANK YOU. I KNOW LIKE ON JULY 3RD IT WOULD BE VERY USEFUL BUT THAT ONE DAY OUT OF THE YEAR BUT THANK YOU ANY OTHER GENERAL THOUGHTS? I HAVE? I KNOW THE OWNERSHIP OF THE OFFICE PARK IS A BIT IN FLUX BUT HAVE THEY BEEN ENGAGED HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN ENGAGING ON THIS? I MEAN THEY WOULD HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WITHIN THEIR TENANCY THAT WOULD BE THEY WOULD BE THE ONES WHO WOULD BE USING THIS. SO DO THEY HAVE ANY OPINIONS, THOUGHTS? YEAH. CHAIR ALBRECHT I WOULD SAY WE HAVE NOT ENGAGED THE OFFICE PARK AND I DON'T THINK IT WAS PART OF THE ORIGINAL PLAN SO I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK FOR ENGINEERING AND THE CONSULTANT TEAM BUT THAT CERTAINLY A GOOD GOOD POINT OR MAYBE ONE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SOME LOW LOW STAKES ENGAGEMENT AND GETTING SOME FEEDBACK AS THEY'RE PROBABLY MORE LIKELY THE FOLKS THAT ARE CROSSING THERE ON A REGULAR BASIS. COMMISSIONERS YEAH. THANK YOU MADAM CHAIR. I THINK IT'D BE REALLY BENEFICIAL IF AND IF POSSIBLE TO LIKE DO LIKE A SURVEY CONTACT THE CEO OR SOMETHING OF THE COMPANY OR OFFICE RIGHT AND DO LIKE A GENERAL SURVEY OPTION PROBABLY OPTIONAL BUT YEAH IF MOST OF THE PEOPLE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT WORK THERE THAT ARE GOING TO BE IMPACTED OR HAVE BEEN IMPACTED, THEN SEEING A GENERAL SURVEY ON FROM THEM WOULD BE LIKE I THINK PRETTY BENEFICIAL TO IF POSSIBLE YOU KNOW YEAH YEAH I WILL SAY COMMISSIONER YOU SAID PUBLIC OUTREACH WAS NOT INCLUDED AS AS PART OF THIS SCOPE OF WORK THAT WILL BE INCLUDED LATER WITH THE DISTRICT PLAN UPDATE THAT THAT IS A GOOD POINT THAT WE SHOULD REACH OUT TO THE THE BUSINESS PARK ONCE ONCE THE DISTRICT PLAN UPDATE IS IS READY TO BE UPDATED. I WOULD SAY HOLIDAY TOO. I MEAN THEY WANT TO HAVE MULTIPLE MODES OF TRAFFIC THOUGH THEIR GAS STATION BUT THEY PROBABLY BENEFIT FROM BEING CLOSE TO THE OFFICE PARK AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST HOP OVER THERE SO BE INTERESTING TO KNOW WHAT THEIR THEIR THOUGHTS ARE AS WELL RIGHT? OR TO MAKE ENGINEERING HOW DO YOU FEEL? ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? YEAH. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DO ANYTHING ELSE? I WAS JUST LOOKING OVER TO BOLT AND LINCOLN ENGINEERING. I THINK WE'RE OKAY SO OKAY. ANY OTHER FINAL THOUGHTS, COMMISSIONER LISA YEAH, MAYBE THE SURVEY COULD LOOK THANK YOU BY THE WAY. MANAGER MAYBE IT COULD LOOK LIKE SOMETHING LIKE IS THIS AN ISSUE? DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS AN ISSUE IF YOU DO WHICH ONE WOULD YOU PREFER? ONE, 2 OR 3? SO IT JUST YEAH. UNSOLICITED ADVICE. YEAH. THANK YOU. YEAH, SOUNDS GOOD. THANK YOU. YEAH. I MEAN IN COMPARISON TO OTHER INTERSECTIONS I MEAN I DON'T KNOW I REALLY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TRAFFIC ENGINEERING BUT IS 200 PEOPLE A LOT? YEAH FOR AN INTERSECTION I'M GETTING NODS. OKAY, SO 200 PEOPLE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE CROSSING THE STREET? YEAH. OKAY FAIR ENOUGH. BUT SO LIKE I'M JUST THINKING ABOUT LIKE WHERE ELSE COULD BE SIMILAR LIKE WHAT ABOUT THE LIKE ACROSS LYNDALE ON 84TH BY LIKE THE DEVENUS AND THEN TO THE GAS STATION OVER THERE LIKE WHAT'S ROUGHLY RETHINKING AND SURE JAILBREAK I DON'T I GUESS I DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER ANY OTHER DATA FOR PEDESTRIAN CROSSING VOLUMES. I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF THE OTHER I MEAN WOULD YOU SAY LIKE MUCH LESS MUCH LESS OKAY . ALL RIGHT. SO THIS IS I MEAN THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE SO THAT'S THAT'S GOOD. GOOD. I THINK THAT THAT THAT MAKES IT IMPORTANT FOR US TO AT LEAST DISCUSS BUT I DO THINK ENGAGING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CROSSING HERE WOULD BE GOOD AND IT FEELS LIKE ANECDOTALLY IT FEELS LIKE IT'S PROBABLY OFFICE PARK PEOPLE OR HOLIDAY PEOPLE AND NOT NECESSARILY PEOPLE WHO ARE ENJOYING THE NORMAL LIKE PARK THERE PROBABLY IS SOME BUT I WOULDN'T SAY THAT'S PROBABLY IF THERE'S 200 ON THE NORTH SIDE AND ONLY A COUPLE DOZEN ON THE OTHER SIDES SEEMS LIKE A A WIN WIN SITUATION TO BE ASKING WAS YOUR CHARACTER ANECDOTALLY MADAM CHAIR, WHEN I LIVED OVER HERE I WOULD SEE THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF APARTMENTS ON THIS NORTHEAST PART HERE AND SO PEOPLE WOULD GO FROM THEIR APARTMENT TO THE PARK. SO I THINK THAT'S PART OF YOUR DEMOGRAPHIC. SO YEAH. ALL THANK YOU. THANK YOU. >> ALL RIGHT. ITEM TWO OUR APOLOGIES. THIS IS A STUDY ITEM SO THERE'S NO PUBLIC HEARING AND THIS WILL GO ON TO THE CITY COUNCIL'S STUDY ITEM AGENDA FOR THE MEETING ON JUNE 30TH 2025. NEXT ITEM WE HAVE THIS EVENING IS ALSO A STUDY ITEM. IT IS THE PLANNING COMMISSION POLICY AND ISSUES UPDATE AND PLANNING SUPERVISOR CENTENARIO DO YOU HAVE THE REPORT? CHAIR ALBRECHT COMMISSIONER HAS A BRIEF REPORT YES I JUST WANTED TO BRING UP TO SPEED ON YOUR UPCOMING MEETINGS ON JUNE 26TH MORE OF A LONG RANGE ORIENTED MEETING WITH ANNUAL HOUSING REPORT AND A STUDY ITEM ON HOA IS HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATIONS. THAT'S ALL WE HAVE IDENTIFIED SO FAR FOR JUNE 26TH JULY 10TH MIX OF ITEMS SWEARING IN NEW PLANNING COMMISSIONERS AND WE HAVE A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR AN IN A SCHOOL THAT'S LOOKING FROM ONE OFFICE BUILDING TO ONE THAT'S NEXT DOOR. THEN WE HAVE A CITY INITIATED DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION WHICH WE DON'T SEE VERY OFTEN AND THAT'S FOR A SALT SHED EXPANSION TO A PUBLIC WORKS BUILDING AND THEN A FUTURE PHASE FOR A NEW CITY FLEET MAINTENANCE BUILDING. AND THEN WE HAVE A ANOTHER STUDY ITEM ON THE BLOOMINGTON FERRY ROAD CORRIDOR IN TERMS OF THE THE NEW COMMISSIONERS THAT ARE COMING ON BOARD, PLANNING MANAGER JOHNSON IS TRYING TO COORDINATE SOME TRAINING OPPORTUNITIES FOR THOSE ARE TRAINING AND ORIENTATION OPPORTUNITIES FOR THOSE COMMISSIONERS. THAT'S ALL I HAVE. GREAT. ANY ITEMS FROM THE COMMISSION ? ALL RIGHT. SEEING NONE THAT WILL CONCLUDE OUR JUNE 12TH, 2025 MEETING OF THE BLOOMINGTON PLANNING COMMISSION. HAVE A GREAT NIGHT