This transcript features **Mayor Wayne Boucher**, City Council members **John Geissler**, **Andy Hjelle**, **Brian LeBlanc**, and **Joe Peterson**, along with City Staff and Engineering representatives. Note on Speaker Identifications: * **Councilor Peterson** is transcribed phonetically as "Jones" in the original text. * **Councilor Hjelle** is transcribed phonetically as "jelly". * **Councilor LeBlanc** is transcribed phonetically as "lah," "leas," or "leblad". * **Councilor Geissler** is transcribed phonetically as "Geer" or "gerler". * **Pete Blomquist** (Northland Consulting Engineers) is the "Mr. B" referred to by the Council regarding engineering projects. *** [0:00] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Let's call the meeting to order and stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. (Pledge of Allegiance) [0:23] **Alissa McClure (City Clerk):** Roll call please. Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Here. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Here. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Here. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Here. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Here. Um, announcements. Do any councilors have announcements this evening? Nothing. Uh, we have no public hearings. We have a communication from someone on the Hermantown Road. Could you outline that? [0:53] **Joe Wicklund (Assistant City Administrator):** Well, just a question about to the council about an availability charge for water and sewer. Those are, uh, have been in place on that property and other properties for years and years in advance. There's some questions about some, uh, changes that have happened in terms of how we do, uh, availability. Over the years, we've recently changed that amount from 2,500 to 5,000. It aligns Hermantown a little bit better with other cities along with the past assessment we've done. But, um, but we'll continue discussing that particular communication. Staff will communicate and work towards a response to that, and uh, they'll keep Council advised. [1:08] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Absolutely, thank you. Um, do we have kind of a short summation of the budget presentation and the schematic design cost estimate, two significant presentations in pre-agenda? [1:40] **Joe Wicklund:** Kevin Orme covered our 2024 budget booklet presentation. Um, most importantly, that's going to be in front of the Council on December 4th, so folks who are following along with that can see that kind of come to completion at least at that point. Um, and then the second, uh, presentation was a schematic design estimate taking a look at what the work that K&A and GSW have done in terms of meeting the needs of the, uh, Design Group and the arena of their dreams, along with lining up with, uh, available funds. There's still a little bit of a gap there and there's discussions over the next two weeks about how we close that Gap and align with what we're hoping to build as soon as possible. [1:56] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Thank you. Uh, next is public discussion. This is general public discussion about items not on the agenda. Every item that's voted on later on will have a separate time for public discussion. So if anyone is here for any of the resolutions that we might pass tonight, there will be public discussion under those resolutions. Is there anyone that wishes to address the council about any item not on the agenda? If so, if you're in Chambers, please approach the podium and state your name and address. If you're online, please raise your hand or announce your name and address. We have a microphone right up here, sir. [2:44] **Robert (Resident):** Sorry, my name's Robert. I just wanted to clarify. I was under that communication piece of the agenda. I know this is kind of out of order probably. [3:00] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Oh no, that's not a problem. [3:15] **Robert (Resident):** Um, I missed what was said. [3:16] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** We received your communication. Okay. Staff is working on the issue and they will be communicating with you and getting back to you on this. There won't—there is no action that's going to be taken tonight about your, uh, request. We will—staff will be getting back to you and they'll be involving Council in whatever they do. [3:30] **Robert (Resident):** Okay, okay. Very good. So it's not done, but there's no action this evening? [3:35] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Nothing. Okay, very good. Thank you. You're welcome to stick around for the exciting meeting if you'd like. Thank you. Is there any other public discussion? This is the last opportunity for general public discussion on tonight's agenda. [4:05] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** With no more public discussion, we will close that section. There are no motions. We'll move to the consent agenda. Consent agenda includes the minutes for the November 6, 2023, Council continuation meeting and accounts payable approved General City warrants from November 1st, 2023, through November 15, 2023, in the amount of $619,235.45. Is there a motion for the consent agenda? [4:40] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor LeBlanc. Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next we have a whole bunch of resolutions relating to project 534. First is Resolution 2023-157 for Road Improvement District number 534. Do we have a motion? [5:09] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? **Councilor John Geissler:** I'll second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Geissler. Uh, this is the $9,750 adjustment or assessment for the road Improvement project. Uh, do we have any questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on this resolution? This is just one of the resolutions... what was your last name, sir? [5:50] **Resident:** Schul. 164. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Uh, 164. We'll be a little while for that one. This is just for resolution 157, the Mercer parcel. Is there any public input on this resolution? Last opportunity for public input on Resolution 2023-157. Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next, Resolution 2023-158 for Road Improvement District number 534. Is there a motion? [6:40] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Do we have a second? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor LeBlanc. This is a $9,750 assessment. Uh, do we have any questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on Resolution 2023-158, the property assessment? Any public input on this resolution? If so, state your name and address for the record. [7:28] **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next, Resolution 2023-159 adopting an assessment against the Vulm parcel for Road Improvement District number 534. This is another $9,750 assessment. Do we have a motion? [7:47] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? **Councilor John Geissler:** I'll second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Geissler. Any questions or comments from Council? [8:15] **Councilor John Geissler:** Um, I just wanted to... there's two parcels and I know this was one of them, but this is right across from the school drive and there were some issues with uh approach of the driveway and some trees and things like that. Do we know if anything was...? [8:25] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** I know that there was a culvert issue and that the culvert issue was going to be handled by the city engineer and public works at a later time due to the fact that the culvert is over a trout stream or a designated trout stream. They didn't want all of the federal problems that would go with fixing that during this project to delay the project. And, uh, they also are looking at the approach and any visibility issue and we'll take corrective action. [8:55] **Councilor John Geissler:** Okay, thank you. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Any other questions? Is there any public comment on this resolution? Any public comment on Resolution 2023-159? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [9:32] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-160 for Road Improvement District number 534. Do I have a motion? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Peterson. This is a $9,750 adjustment for the recent road improvement project on Ugstad Road. Is there any comments from Council or questions? Is there any public input on this resolution? Do we have any public input on the resolution adopting an assessment against the Olsen parcel? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next is Resolution 2023-161, resolution adopting an assessment against the Gilbert parcel for Road Improvement District number 534. Is there a motion? [10:33] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** We have a second by Councilor LeBlanc. He got it just by a hair. Uh, this is another $9,750 assessment associated with the Ugstad road project. Is there any questions or comments from Council? Any public input on this resolution? Is there any public input on the resolution adopting an assessment against the Gilbert parcel? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [12:11] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-162 for Road Improvement District number 534. Do we have a motion? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Peterson. Another $9,750 assessment for the Ugstad road improvement project. Are there any questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on this resolution? Is there any public input on the resolution adopting an assessment against the Postal parcel? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next is Resolution 2023-163 for Road Improvement District number 534. Do we have a motion? [13:25] **Councilor John Geissler:** Move to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Geissler. Do we have a second? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor LeBlanc. This is another $9,750 assessment for the Ugstad road project. Is there any questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on this resolution? If there's any public input please start with your name and address. Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next is Resolution 2023-164 adopting an assessment against the Schul parcel for Road Improvement District number 534. Is there a motion? [14:14] **Councilor John Geissler:** Move to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Geissler. Is there a second? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor LeBlanc. This is another $9,750 assessment for the Ugstad road project. Are there any questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on this resolution? If so, please state your name and address. [15:01] **Mr. Schul (Resident):** 4161 Ugstad Road. Um, and I guess since we've, uh, talked last time, I have done more reading on the laws of the state for this. And kind of reading through it, I—it kind of came to my attention there's a couple things. The first was it seemed like there's supposed to be a, uh, 35% majority petition signed off by the residents in the road to give a, um, the kind of the authority to move forward. Uh, but perhaps it was voted on across the board in the... for... but the other point was, uh, I think this maybe has come up before, these assessments just in general. Um, they are supposed to be tied to the value of the improvement that's on the property and there's—there's really been no, um, what I would say indication that there's an improvement to the value of my property or anybody on Ugstad. Really, the benefit has been more for the Greater Community. Um, so it's not like the value of our homes have gone up. We basically had a paved road that was decent, degrading, and it's been, uh, repaved and it'll need repaving again in the future when maintenance is needed. So to me, the value doesn't—doesn't seem like it's there. I mean, I will leave it to the state to decide or the county, I guess, is the next step to decide on the legality of that, but just wanted to voice my thoughts to that. Um, it kind of feel... everybody I tell of these assessments to, they say, "The city can really do that?" And that to me feels like a dictatorship almost. Of the city's telling you we're going to do this, we're going to charge you this, they do it and they charge you. Um, and unfortunately, yeah, we probably should have said—put our opinion in maybe two years ago. I actually thought the project had kind of canceled actually. I didn't even know it was going forward after, uh, I think maybe it fell apart in 2021 or 2020. But, um, that's I guess my two cents on it. But it just—it doesn't sit right with me more than—more than anything, just the the way it's handled and kind of pushed—pushed on the residents. It's, uh, it's kind of, uh, in the name of progress you're kind of pricing people out of their homes in my opinion. And that's really not progress in my opinion. It's—I mean, you just... it's getting very, very expensive to live in Hermantown. And I'm thankful I have a good job, but not everybody necessarily does. So if it's a, you know, 9, 10 grand, even if you $1,800 or $1,000 or $800 a year is still a lot of—a lot of money. So um, for everybody. [17:50] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Okay. If you're around at the end of the meeting, we may have some other information on the things you brought up. I'll ask our attorney. Are you aware of any 35% signature laws that would cover this? [18:05] **Steve Overom (City Attorney):** I am, but that's for a different process. [18:08] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Is that for utilities? Thank you. Any other public input on this resolution? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next is Resolution 2023-165 for Road Improvement District number 534. Do we have a motion? [18:47] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Move to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor LeBlanc. Is there a second? **Councilor John Geissler:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Geissler. And this is a motion to NOT adopt the assessment because he has elected to choose to be part of the Twin Pines Road when and if that, uh, road is ever rebuilt and he would be assessed with that. On a corner lot, we're only allowed to assess one road. So we, uh, gave him the option of choosing either Ugstad or Twin Pines, and he's aware of the possibility that when Twin Pines is done sometime in the future that the assessment may be more and that if he would have agreed to this, uh, he would not have to pay in the future. And he, uh, chose as he did. Are there any questions or comments from Council? [19:42] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** His driveway is on Twin Pines, right? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Yes. Yeah, and quite a—quite a distance down Twin Pines. In fact, uh, most of the corner portion of the property is on a hill and not usable. Any other questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on Resolution 2023-165? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [20:58] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-166 regarding the Hansen parcel for Road Improvement District number 534. Is there a motion? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Do we have a second? **Councilor John Geissler:** I'll second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Geissler. This is another Ugstad road assessment. Is there any public input on this resolution? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [22:11] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-167 for Ugstad Road. Do we have a motion to approve? **Councilor John Geissler:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Geissler. Is there a second? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Peterson. This is the total project assessment list including those we've just approved. Any questions or comments from Council? Any public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next is Resolution 2023-168 for deferral of assessment against the property for hardship. Do we have a motion? [23:19] **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Move to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Peterson. Is there a second? **Councilor John Geissler:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Geissler. This is a deferral of the assessment based on a hardship. You have any questions or comments from Council? Is there any public input on Resolution 2023-168? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next is Resolution 2023-169 for deferral of assessment against the property for hardship. Do I have a motion? [24:35] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor LeBlanc. Are there any questions or comments from Council? Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [25:44] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-170 approving change order number 17 for Road Improvement District number 534 Ugstad Road and Arrowhead roads. Is there a motion? **Councilor John Geissler:** Move to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Geissler. Is there a second? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Hjelle. Uh, should we move this to our city engineer? Let's ask Mr. Blomquist. Mr. B, can you explain this? [26:12] **Pete Blomquist (Engineer, Northland Consulting):** Yeah, Mayor and Council, this is, um, change order number 17 for the Ugstad road reconstruction project and it's in regards to a bituminous incentive, um, pay. Our construction documents allow for, um, an incentive when the density exceeds the requirement. So, um, there's—there's two pieces of this. One is the incentive for the pavement on Ugstad road and the second piece is the incentive for on the Arrowhead Road for a total of $16,416. [26:47] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** So this is an incentive pay for increased density in the bituminous? [26:55] **Pete Blomquist:** Correct. [26:56] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Но this was increased density that was made necessary by the late date of application? You've said in previous meetings that when bituminous is put down past a certain date that the density needs to be increased because of the temperature. [27:08] **Pete Blomquist:** Um, so that comment was made... when the temperatures are low, the hot mix asphalt cools off quicker and you need to, um, compact it and roll it quicker so it doesn't cool off. Because if it cools off, then you don't get the density. [27:26] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Okay, so this wasn't related to temperature then? [27:28] **Pete Blomquist:** No, it was not. [27:32] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Okay. Increase density increases the length of the road, I'm assuming. So...? [27:46] **Pete Blomquist:** The MnDOT specifications say that the target is 100% of the maximum density, and then there's incentives if you go above that. So they were hitting 101, 102. So there's incentives for that. And then there's equally—there's disincentives if the density of the black top is below the target and the MnDOT has tables for, um, each... the road is classified into different lots and then you apply the incentive or disincentive to each lot. And a lot is represented by the density test. So for example, a lot might relate to 500 tons of black top or, um, you know, 800 feet of road for example. So that's—that's clearly defined in the MnDOT, um, standard specifications. And our state and federal aid dollars require us to specify, um, the bituminous specification within the MnDOT, um, spec. So on our local projects we can take that element out. [29:05] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Yeah, does—does the higher density material benefit the city? What's the reason for the incentive? What's the reason for the higher density? [29:19] **Pete Blomquist:** The—yes, the short answer is yes. It's—it's been proven by MnDOT materials labs that a higher density gives you both better ride quality and better, um, handles the traffic loading better because of the density. That's why there's an incentive program. [29:40] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Is there a reason it's called a change order not an incentive pay? [29:45] **Pete Blomquist:** Well, the change order modifies the contract documents, you know, up or down and then the description of the change order is "incentive pay." [29:55] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Okay, I guess I just think the language is a little misleading, but okay. [29:58] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** I think anytime that we change the amount of money that we're paying, we have to have a change order. [30:04] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Gotcha. Any other questions or comments? [30:07] **Councilor John Geissler:** Um, just to clarify, I don't recall we've done this on other projects. Um, is this...? [30:15] **Pete Blomquist:** Um, in 2016 when we did Stepner Road, we had a similar incentive-disincentive program and that was the last time we did a federal aid project. [30:26] **Councilor John Geissler:** Okay, thank you. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Can't blame you for seven years down the road, right? You're expected to have a better memory, John. Anything else from Council? Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next is Resolution 2023-171 approving pay request number six for Road Improvement District number 534 to Uhlan Brothers in the amount of $98,514.43. [31:26] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Move to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor LeBlanc. Is there a second? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Peterson. Mr. Blomquist? **Pete Blomquist:** Yeah, thank you Mayor and Council. So this is pay application number six for the work associated with the Ugstad and Arrowhead Road project. Um, this $98,000-odd represents some of the final cleanup, some sidewalk curb gutter, and some miscellaneous, uh, turf establishment. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Thank you. Any questions or comments? Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [32:30] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Next is Resolution 2023-172 adopting assessment role for Road Improvement District number 538, Richard Avenue and Lindgren Road. Do we have a motion? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle. Is there a second? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor LeBlanc. Mr. Wicklund? **Joe Wicklund:** Uh, this covers all of the, uh, property owners that have previously been informed about this, uh, through Richard Avenue, Lindgren Road, and through, uh, the Hermantown Marketplace where some significant upgrades have been done for the roads including a new road intersection. Um, we don't have any objections at this point for any of these assessments. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Thank you. Questions from Council? Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next is Resolution 2023-173 repealing a $48,000 assessment. [34:36] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Move to approve. **Councilor John Geissler:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor LeBlanc, second by Councilor Geissler. We didn't cover this one in pre-agenda. Uh, just in passing, but Mr. Wicklund? **Joe Wicklund:** Mayor and Council, even the resolution number hints at it—in 2020, uh, one of the property owners within the Marketplace, uh, agreed to an assessment that was preliminary based on the work that we thought we would perform and is now on the verge of being completed. This, uh, piece of action then, uh, aligns the, uh, assessment for this particular property owner with the group that you just passed and makes everything equal for all the property owners in there. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** So that owner gets a lower assessment than what they had originally agreed? **Joe Wicklund:** They had started paying on an assessment because they were in support of the project and able to get in front of it, but now this again creates alignment through all the property owners. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Thank you. Prepayment is nice, that shows the person's support of the project. Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [35:55] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-174 approving pay request number five for Road Improvement District number 538 to Uhlan Brothers in the amount of $487,545.07. Is there a motion? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion to approve. **Councilor John Geissler:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle, second by Councilor Geissler. Uh, this is a pay as you go on the Marketplace road reconstruction. Mr. Blomquist, you can walk us through a little bit of the work. **Pete Blomquist:** Yeah, so Mayor and Council, this is, uh, pay estimate number five for the work associated with the improvements we're making in the Marketplace, and the the bulk of the payment is from bituminous paving, the concrete curb gutter, and sidewalk. Um, this project, just as a little FYI, um, there's some concrete sidewalk that we decided will be best be improved, um, next year. So we're going to put this project to bed for the winter and then we'll—we'll finish it first thing in the in the spring. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Thank you. Is the black top down? **Pete Blomquist:** Yes. And the businesses in that area will be happy with that. **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Just question following up—did this have an incentive for bituminous, uh, compaction? **Pete Blomquist:** Not a state aid project, no. **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Okay. Even though we don't have the, um, incentive, do we still test it though? **Pete Blomquist:** Correct. Yes, we have an EPC as our, um, material testing consultant on this one. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [38:25] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-175 approving the change order for the capacity increase to the Hermantown Arena Chiller. Do we have a motion? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Move to approve. **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor LeBlanc, second by Councilor Peterson. Mr. Wicklund? **Joe Wicklund:** So this is an opportunity for the city to enhance the abilities, uh, of the chiller purchased by the school to potentially service, uh, two arenas. The subcontractor for the city's architect reviewed, uh, the purchase of, uh, the chiller that the school did and believes that this upgrade before you today is necessary, uh, to adequately operate an arena that will have two, uh, sheets of ice. As it's already been purchased—the chiller I'm talking about has already been purchased—that's why we're kind of approaching this similar to a change order. **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Are we returning that chiller and purchasing a different one or what's the story of that? **Joe Wicklund:** No, this will just be an addition to the chiller that's purchased and ready. **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** So you can, okay, change the plugs and the points. **Joe Wicklund:** Actually add another compressor, I believe. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** I understand that the original purchase was around $800,000; this addition is $70,000. It's—it's a good deal. Any other questions? Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [40:29] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-176 authorizing and directing the Mayor and City Clerk to execute and deliver a CMaR contract between the City of Hermantown and Kraus-Anderson Construction Company. Is there a motion? **Councilor John Geissler:** Move to approve. **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Geissler, second by Councilor Hjelle. Mr. Wicklund? **Joe Wicklund:** So this is the contract to make KA the Construction Manager at Risk for the arena project. Uh, they have performed and continue to perform all of the pre-construction effort. Uh, this solidifies them as the CMaR, uh, which was recommended long ago through a process in a group that included, uh, members of this group, uh, the community, the school, uh, and the hockey community as well. [41:45] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Thank you. Any questions or comments from Council? I'll just add that the CMaR process was the same process that was used on the Wellness Center—a different construction manager—but the reason we do that is so that the city's not managing the project and that the city can take advantage of the tax savings of not paying sales tax as the CM acts as our agent in purchasing materials. I'll just comment that so far, in this process, it has worked better from my experience than the last one on the Wellness Center, where we were surprised with, uh, costs a lot more than we were are on this one, and I appreciate that. Is there any public input on this resolution? [42:52] **Tony Stokey (Resident):** 4866 Hermantown Road. Mr. Mayor, Mayor and Council, um, I want to ask you to maybe not vote on this yet. Uh, I read the contract. The guaranteed price amount in the contract is $18 million. Uh, prior to this meeting, there was a pre-agenda meeting. We clearly saw in that meeting that, uh, $18 million is not going to be enough. Uh, so I would urge you not, uh, to vote on this yet. Uh, secondly, um, I work with a lot of clients that work in the commercial construction space. Um, it's becoming a little more competitive. Um, I understand that we went into a contract back in March or, uh, May of 2022 and a lot has changed since then. Um, it might be, uh, wise for the council to consider opening it back up for bid. Thank you. [44:09] **Resident:** David Drive. Um, I would like to second that—um, postponing the vote. Um, from the fundraising portion of the partnership, uh, we appreciate more time, um, just to consider options. Um, fundraising has been going relatively well, um, but it—as we expressed during the design meetings—that everything just felt really rushed. We saw the design plan last Monday, one week ago, and that's not a lot of time to show potential sponsors, um, and just make sure that everything goes smoothly and this project is done well. Um, so any additional time, um, would—would be appreciated in postponing this vote, um, until another meeting would be ideal for our group. Thank you. [44:55] **Resident:** 4914 Trails End Drive. Um, I'm here to address you guys, Council, as a concerned member of this community and as a member of the... that was kind of a lead guy for this "Vote Yes" committee. I stood here probably about two years ago on the interview process that helped interview IC, Johnson Wilson, and Kraus-Anderson. The reason I selected Kraus-Anderson was because of their marketing agent and their individual that could help pass the referendum, because without a referendum passed we would not be standing here today talking about that. It was probably about within two months after we hired them, the individual that had pretty much promised us a greater than 90% pass rating on the referendum retired and walked away. We personally called him and asked him if he would stay on to help us because that's what they kind of sold us on. Uh, we were told no. So our "Vote Yes" committee pretty much passed this referendum out of a handbook from Kraus-Anderson with us doing all the work. Um, knowing that... uh, that I look back today, I can't guarantee you I would have selected Kraus-Anderson to go ahead with this process. And I kind of want to reiterate the question Mr.—Councilor LeBlanc asked—when he asked why can't we open this up to somebody else? And you say because they're the general. What about an IC, Johnson Wilson? Now, you know, they all go out and get bids. I understand that. But maybe Kraus-Anderson's contractor is more expensive than a Johnson Wilson or an IC contractor. So my question is just like everybody, just like Councilor LeBlanc, why don't we open it up to other people? Because strike two to me is when I sat up here and said this is kind of the budget we're looking at, Kraus-Anderson said, "I think we could work with that." And as a concerned member of this community, we're cutting everything out of this that has a community aspect. We wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for the community voting yes. So I want you guys as individuals that represent this community to look at the big picture. I am yet to see a $32 million rink. I see what they proposed and gave us $5 million or $5 million more than that what they need. If I don't see the big picture, I don't know what we need to be doing, but I'm standing here as somebody that was out on the street corner fighting to get this "Vote Yes" and selling a project that I hope we can make this community proud of. I don't see that on what they're presenting now. So I hope you guys reconsider that vote, uh, and we step back and take our time and get this right. We have one kick at the can. So thank you. [48:15] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Thank you. Any other public comment? (Mayor calls for comments from Council) [48:47] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Before we go back to council with questions and comments, I'd like to ask our City Attorney his thoughts on $18 million in one number versus, uh, what we were told the guaranteed maximum price would be that they can't commit to right now and the nature of the contract. [49:15] **Steve Overom (City Attorney):** Mayor, I'm going to defer to Mr. Mulder. Sometimes we divide and conquer on some of these projects and this has one been one that he has taken the lead on this contract. [49:34] **John Mulder (City Administrator):** Well, it evidently it was told to us just now that it's in the contract we're looking at approving. [49:40] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** And we were told earlier this evening that it wouldn't be prepared until later in the process. Uh, Council, I'm guessing we have some more questions. Councilor Peterson? [50:00] **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Yeah, just logistically. In a world say we did try and put this out for bid or whatever the process would be, one, what is the timeline and two, what does that do to, say we do end up sticking with Kraus-Anderson at the end of it? Is that still 1.95% or is that become a different number then? And then we're set back even further. Like logistically, what does this process look like? Who has that answer? [50:20] **Joe Wicklund:** Well, I think just the basic piece of it—you know, one part of what we learned in pre-agenda and we've learned in multiple meetings today is that time is money. Uh, and there's a desire for this project to happen and be a reality in September of 2025. So any passing time doesn't tend to lower the cost of something. Um, so if we're in a position where we were to open that up, uh, for bid, that is time. So there's—there's no way around that. Um, yes, similar to any negotiation or—or anything right now, um, we're staring at a contract with a 1.95% uh piece to KA. As has been mentioned time and time again, we could definitely potentially improve that and we could definitely potentially not improve that. Those are both, uh, risks of any contract negotiation. [51:10] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Well, so two things. The contract does have $18 million in it. There is $18 million listed in the contract. Yes, $18 million and zero cents, which also isn't accurate, right? So that's like a logistical... doesn't really matter. So I guess the way I look at it is you can't control the final cost because it's all going to come down to what the bids are, right? And to a certain extent, we cannot control what the cost of the building is going to be because we don't know what the bids are to build it yet. They're going to have a guaranteed maximum price, but they're going to put it out for bids first. I don't know the timing of that process. I don't think they would put it out for... they would give us a maximum price without first doing some due diligence on what the bids are going to cost. John, what is...? [52:26] **John Mulder:** I asked that question tonight and, right, yeah—the guaranteed maximum price comes then after the the bids are obtained. Yes. Again, remember the bidding process is open and transparent. [52:40] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** My point is the only number that we can control is the markup that the general contractor—or whatever you want to call them, construction manager—gives us. That's the only number. [52:50] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Well, I would argue that you—you don't control it, you just have an opportunity to influence it. We can say no. [53:12] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Yeah, so at the end of the day, that's the only thing that we can influence. Now, we can ask for estimates and bids all we want, but I mean, we already have a design, right? So the only thing that we can really change right now is the markup that KA gives us on the bids. In theory, yeah. [53:25] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Well, I—I think we're looking at a motion on the table and the motion is to approve. If the motion passes and approves, we can go forward with that. If it does not pass, I think we're done for a while. We have to start over again. [53:40] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Do we though? Because we have paid KA for the initial design work, right? So we could take that design and bring it to different builders, different managers. I don't—I don't know. It's just... I'm asking. What if we tabled this and were able to get concrete answers on that timeline and logistics and have that by 12/4 when KA can present us a more detailed...? [54:10] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** First of all, I think the thought of rebidding something that we've already bid, approved, and and committed to, uh, in this type of large process—uh, I don't think is going to work. I think if we vote against it, I think we effectively fire KA. But tbling it or voting... let me finish. We can change the motion if the people that made the motion and the second wish to alter their motion to table it. We can do that and we can have some time to find some more answers. But tabling it wouldn't allow another contractor to come in and say, "Hey, we'd give you a 1.5% markup on our bids." Not the timeline we want, probably. Maybe. We don't know that. We're also tied to like a very bureaucratic process. It's not just like a contractor can walk in and say that they will do something. Like, there's procedures in place. [55:10] **John Mulder:** The other thing, Brian, those plans that we saw tonight are very, very preliminary and schematic. Before the project can be bid out by KA or anybody, there are months of—of building that plan. You heard them talk about the need for mechanical, electrical design. Nobody even knows how big the HVAC units need to be or—or the electrical panels or that type of thing. [55:40] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** That was kind of big into my question was what... because what do we pay KA $60 grand for pre-design work? What does that bring you? What point does that bring you to in the project? Do you buy schematics for $60 grand or do you just...? [55:50] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Two separate contracts. KA is only the construction manager. DSW's scope of work is separate, and so that money pretty much went to DSW. Well, it's to do this. Yeah, and it's—it's again, it's just a portion of the big picture of the project. [56:10] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** I get that, but we should be able to know what we're paying for. What are we buying for $60 grand from KA? Because that's what the pre-design work was, right? Am I remembering that number correctly? [56:20] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Yes. [56:21] **Joe Wicklund:** There's—there's an additional time-based reality in what you're considering, though, is that there's likely work that has been performed already, uh, that is in a contract that's not yet signed because of the length of time it takes a project of this nature to be negotiated, uh, through the legal teams on both. [56:45] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** So sounds like we have to start by 2025 for all our money to still be good. [56:50] **Joe Wicklund:** No, what I'm—what I'm saying in this particular example is any—anything short of... if—if you table it for two weeks because you want more information and then you make a change, it isn't going to be a quick change. It'll be a many, many month change because of work that's already been performed, that's likely already baked into this contract, and it's likely been performed to the degree of good faith because of the entire process they went through earlier. Um, again, certainly the Council's choice to table and/or walk away, but I don't think it—I think it extends some timeframes pretty considerably, no matter who we're dealing with next, because of all the work that's gone into this time thus far. [57:30] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** I would... can I just say one thing? I just don't like being told what the markup is going to be without the chance of other people bidding on that. We just weren't part of that process. [57:45] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** And they've already bid on that. [57:46] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Was that number ever discussed in your meeting? [57:50] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** What number? The one—the markup? I think we went through that process. [58:05] **Councilor John Geissler:** I agree with Mr. Stokey that it's disappointing that the person who was going to help with the referendum retired. Very disappointing. But the fact that Kraus-Anderson has built most of the recent arenas in the vicinity here, in the Heritage Center and the project in Virginia... so I think that too—and again, I wasn't part of that—but I think that too weighed into it. And again, I don't think going to get somebody who's never built an arena would be of a—a good benefit for the city. [58:40] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** If you... there is a contractor in Duluth that's built two other rinks. [58:45] **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Yep. But they were probably also part of that RFP process. They were asked for to submit a proposal and they did not. They did not. [58:55] **Councilor Joe Peterson:** So we can get hung up on this, but also realizing like this could also turn out poorly, right? Like we could take this route and we could tarnish this relationship with KA and not save any money and maybe miss out on some expertise. So I would be comfortable with like tabling this and getting a few more answers, but I don't think that we should come at it the direction of quote-unquote voting no or firing KA. Because also Joe said like a lot of this work has been done in a good faith effort with the assumption that they are already in a contract with us to perform this work. So there could be work already completed that is not in contract bounds. So I'd be comfortable tabling it till December 4th when they come to us with more of those skimmed-down numbers, but I—I don't support kind of just a full stop and start over because I think that that would cause more—more headache and more cost and more money in a very much longer timeline than we're facing right now. [1:00:20] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Uh, just from the limited experience I've had doing this, I don't think it's wise to change your construction manager at risk at this point. I understand the disconnect and thought between construction manager at risk and contractor. There is a big difference. General contractor. So there is a big difference. But we've already asked for bids, we've accepted those, we've developed a relationship with this company. We don't like the results that we have in front of us right now; we don't like the cost of it. There are some things that we don't like that might have happened along the way. But I financially and for the construction of the project, I don't think it's wise to change horses at this time in the process. If we need a few weeks to answer some questions, that is fine. But we're asking them to do some work now and to come back to us in two weeks. If we say no tonight, will we get that work? Probably not. Will the price go up or will the price go down? We don't know. Some people say prices are going down in the construction industry. In 28 years on Council and public employment, I've never seen prices go down enough to make a big difference. When people have a chance to make more money, they do it. [1:01:45] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Well, it's the cost of materials that are significantly going down, but... [1:01:50] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Um, I think answering the questions is reasonable and prudent, but I—I don't think jettisoning KA is a good idea. I don't think it's wise. And I think that maybe a couple of weeks to investigate and to find out why or what are the possible results of our actions is a good idea, because my gut tells me that it's a bad move to get rid of KA right now. But let's ask those hard questions. Let's put that in the question and answer and find out what are the unintended results of our decision if we decide that way. I think we can make a decision based on as many facts as we can, but to your point, we can't say no and then ask them to do two more weeks' worth of work. No, I wouldn't do it. So it's right now it would be up to the two people that made and seconded the motion if they wish to change it to a motion to table or we can just go forward with the motion that's on the table. [1:03:00] **Councilor Joe Peterson:** I'd feel more comfortable approving it at the December 4th meeting. Let's—let's go with the the person that originally made the motion. [1:03:15] **Councilor John Geissler:** I do not want to—I do not support tabling it. Then they're stuck. We—we have to vote on it yes or no. Because tabling it's not going to do any good. No, because they're still not going to do any work on it in these two weeks. Why—why wouldn't... I would wait until it approves. Yeah. And I mean the—the the cost is—the the percentage of fee has already been worked out and agreed upon. Uh, again, everything's bid out; it's an open and transparent process. They built other arenas. Went through the process. Again, I agree with Mr. Stokey—disappointed in the fact that the gentleman that was going to help with the referendum left, but that's water over the dam. [1:04:00] **Joe Wicklund:** Well, a little bit to that point though too, Councilor Geissler. Not only Tony did retire, no doubt, but I think if we went back and looked at the notes, it wasn't like KA left. Sign-Driscoll did considerable work both on the education side and on the, uh, promotion side. And memory does not fail me in that it passed. So there was some factor in which KA was helpful in that and I would not discount that. [1:04:30] **Councilor John Geissler:** Yep. So again, I don't see a need to table it and that's why I'm not in favor of changing my motion. [1:04:40] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** That stops a second. [1:04:42] **Councilor Joe Peterson:** So just—so we can all be clear on like avenues forward now. So even if we approve it, we are not approving any specific design, any cost, any timeline, nothing associated with this project. Essentially what we're approving is remaining with KA as a CM. We vote no, we are firing KA and this project is absolutely halted. Okay? [1:05:00] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** KA has every right to come back and put a better bid on the table in front of us. We're not firing them, we're just saying we don't like your bid. [1:05:15] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Which isn't really a bid, I suppose. I have a question for Mr. Mulder. In this contract, we have the right to cancel it at any time, correct? [1:05:30] **John Mulder:** Yeah, there's a cost we'd have to pay them for the work that they've done so far. Yeah, I—I think so, but I mean again, I don't foresee that. But I mean, there are provisions for if, you know... I think they could leave us too. That would be a... that would cost them money. [1:06:45] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** 13.2-3 termination by the owner for convenience. "If the owner terminates the contract for convenience in accordance with article 14, then the owner shall pay the construction manager of 1.95% of the estimated cost of work not completed as of the date of termination." It's actually where it says what the fee is. 6.1.2. Construction manager's fee right here. So there is verbiage that also ties this... so that also ties it to the naming rights agreement. I think we all need to read some contracts. I would imagine it's tied to that if there was a fall-through because the funding would not be there to build the arena. And so clarity both on our part and KA's part on that would be pretty necessary. Any other questions? Our city engineer might have some input. [1:09:15] **Pete Blomquist:** Yeah, Mayor and Council, if it's appropriate I'd like to just add some, um, professional experience in—in this arena and specifically with KA. And I—I've sat on—not a lot—but I sit on, um, interview committees where we interview construction manager at risk for other projects. And the—the percentage that I've seen is the—the 1.945% is at the low end of anything I've seen. So in my professional opinion, if we were to go a different route, we—we would not see a number that's lower than that. That's—that's my opinion. And at NCE we have successfully worked with KA on multiple projects over the last 20 some years, and I have great faith in their company in order to deliver a quality project to the City of Hermantown and the residents. Um, it's—it's unfortunate because the bid prices and stuff—the budget and the bids are, um, not in alignment, but that—that is not, um, in my opinion, a reflection of—of KA. That's the market, things outside of their control. And like, um, Geissler and—and Joe had mentioned, they've—they've done some recent work on hockey rinks in our community, and that's why they were a big part of why they were selected when we did put an RFP out, um, to select the construction manager at risk. So that's—that's all I'd like to say, but I think that was important just to... [1:11:15] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** I have... I'm sorry, I didn't mean to... go ahead. I just have another question as far as like procedurally. So, yes, KA goes out to bids, but is there an opportunity to... when these bids come out, say if members of the community have developed a relationship with any of the contractors that are going for the bid, to kind of work with them in that front as far as the cost goes? [1:11:45] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** I think we are obligated to take the lowest responsible bidder. [1:11:50] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Well, right. Okay, let me give a better example or more specific example. Say someone in the community has a relationship with the window supplier and they're like, "Hey, we'll give as part of the project... will give a 25% markdown," whatever it is. Like, there's still some work that can be done on the backend as far as the... like again, KA is not building the building, right? [1:12:10] **Pete Blomquist:** That's correct. [1:12:11] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Am I understanding that properly? So there's still opportunity to work with the contractors that are actually building, to go to, say, Johnson Wilson wins the pavement bid... okay, well can you cut cost XYZ to help the project? Not in a sense of us completely stalling this project or going down a path that could not be financially beneficial. Because again, like this is a world that you operate in and you operate in, and it's not as easy as a different contractor being able to walk in here and say "I'll do it for 20% less." Like the way that the bureaucracy works, it's not—doesn't work like that. We're not building a single-family home where we can just call in Joe Schmo. [1:12:55] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** But the competitive bid process is going to give us the best price. If—if a contractor... it would be to their benefit to say, "Here's my best price and oh by the way I'll give you $25,000," because then it's a tax write-off to them. There's no benefit for them to lessen their price; they're going to—they're going to give you the price that's competitive amongst the market and just depends—again, depends how busy the contractors are. We're going to be looking at it. So there's still avenues on the building aspect to save money in that front, whether it's through relationships, donations, concessions, whatever it may be. That is completely separate from the KA portion. Okay, I just want to be clear. [1:14:05] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** And the Council holds those... the city holds those contracts. We are going to be approving multiple contracts, right? [1:14:15] **Pete Blomquist:** To manage... I just want to make sure I'm understanding. So Councilor Peterson, if I—if I could maybe help clarify this. So once we... assuming the project... we approve it to go to design development and then ultimately construction documents, a set of plans will be prepared and KA will prepare a set of—of bid scopes. So there'll be bid scopes for each trade, and then they will solicit bids, multiple bids for each trade. Similar to what Paul did on the—the estimate for the site work; he went out to six different contractors and he got bids for site work. These are publicly bid, so they're taking the low bid from all the different vendors that are bidding a specific work scope. And then also it's my understanding because of this is, um, the sales tax we have a—we'll have a, um, project labor agreement. [1:15:55] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Yeah, so my point was just be clear—there's still opportunity to leverage these relationships in the construction community to benefit the project. Engaging in locking in with KA is not going to change that. [1:16:10] **Pete Blomquist:** No, correct. [1:16:11] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Но again, if we think we know a contractor that—that wants to donate or give money, we I think we need to direct them to the HEDA and the committee. [1:16:25] **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Well, right. That's what—but that's what I'm saying. If like if the basis of bringing these concerns and asking to table it is, "Hey, we've spoken with members in this in this world in this community that say they can do it for XYZ," well also KA is not physically building anything. Those contractors can come in and bid and provide benefit and cost savings on that front. That's my point. It's like we're not tied and locked in. There's still avenues possible to leverage those relationships. [1:17:15] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Put a... call for a vote. Are you still set on that? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Tabling? No. **Councilor John Geissler:** No, I I don't want to change my motion. **Councilor Joe Peterson:** We're done with discussion. Roll call. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** No. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [1:17:55] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-177 authorizing the disposal of surplus property. Do we have a motion? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Motion to approve. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor LeBlanc. Do we have a second? **Councilor John Geissler:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Second by Councilor Geissler. Mr. Wicklund, can you describe this? **Joe Wicklund:** Uh, yeah. Paul Senst and the Public Works team are taking a plow truck that is no longer needed because of new purchase and moving it out of the fleet and into auction. This is the plow and the plow truck. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Any questions or comments? Does that get sold...? **Joe Wicklund:** It gets sold, right. An auction, yes. **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Are we using a vendor for that? **Joe Wicklund:** Uh, same auction house that I think we traditionally use. Government auction, state or something. We don't administer the auction. No, no. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [1:19:16] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-179 approving change order number one for Road Improvement District number 451 to Vite in the amount of $39,821. **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Motion to approve. **Councilor John Geissler:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Peterson, second by Geissler. Mr. Blomquist? **Pete Blomquist:** Yes, thank you Mayor and Council. This is change order number one for the Ugstad Road, um, reconstruction and sanitary sewer project. So there's five different pieces to this change order. One being is we had to, uh, put a—a new gate, a longer gate that we wanted to access the the pond. Um, additional topsoil, so we had some extra grading that we needed to do behind the curb and gutter that the the onsite material wasn't suitable, so we directed them to bring in some topsoil. Item three is a coarse filter aggregate. We—we had a wet and unstable trench, so we had them excavate and bring in some granular rock for, um, bedding and backfilling that trench. And then there was, um, item four in here is there was some extra pipe related to the, um, lift station that we had to remove. And the last item is the... once there was a manhole that, uh, in the field was different than what the record drawing showed, so we had to do some modifications to that manhole. In total, that was $39,821. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Thank you. Questions? Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [1:22:01] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-180 for sewer improvement district number 451 to Vite in the amount of $325,100. **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Move to approve. **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor LeBlanc, second by Councilor Hjelle. Mr. Blomquist? **Pete Blomquist:** Yes, thank you Mayor and Council. So this is pay estimate number four associated with the sewer improvement district 451, and the bulk of this, uh, payment includes the bituminous paving, the concrete curb gutter and sidewalk, and some restoration. [1:22:45] **Councilor John Geissler:** Just I have one quick comment that I drove down the road and I think it's great. Uh, I was a little surprised at how big the the T is and, you know, with access to the pond, but looked great. Um, and I—I was concerned at first about how close the curbs and sidewalk would be to the neighboring buildings and they're closer than the setback, but it didn't seem uncomfortable to me. **Pete Blomquist:** So Councilor Geissler, the the turnaround to the pond is the minimum requirement based on the fire access code and our standards that we have in place. Heck, it'd be a nice parking spot for... so Paul's able to turn. **Councilor John Geissler:** I just remember we've done other Hammerheads, but I don't remember it being that big, but it's nice. It's very nice. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Just can't park during the winter. Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. [1:24:31] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-178 adopting assessment role for delinquent utilities. Do we have a motion? **Councilor John Geissler:** Move to approve. **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Geissler, second by Councilor Hjelle. This is assessment role for delinquent utilities; it'll be put on next year's property taxes for the affected, uh, landowners, and all of these relate to storm water utility. **Joe Wicklund:** Yep, Mr. Mayor, they're all storm water, uh, pieces. As we made the changes to the, uh, staff's ability to negotiate and work longer and closer with water and sewer delinquencies, the storm water ones are a little more straightforward. It's folks who are not paying. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Uh, next we have a motion to to close the meeting of the Hermantown city council pursuant to Minnesota statute section 13D.05 subdivision 3B to consider an offer or counter offer for the sale of real property for economic development. And upon that discussion ending, we will reopen the meeting and address Resolution 181. **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Motion. **Councilor John Geissler:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle, second by Councilor Geissler. All in favor say aye. (Chorus of Ayes). Anyone that's here is... sorry. Okay, do we need another roll...? (Meeting moves into executive session and then reconvenes) [1:26:40] **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Resolution 2023-181 authorizing and directing the Mayor and City Clerk to execute and deliver a commercial purchase agreement with BMax Incorporated. Do we have a motion? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Motion to approve. **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor LeBlanc, second by Councilor Peterson. We don't need any explanation? **Joe Wicklund:** Nope, just a—purchasing property for trail easement near the Morris Thomas Road. Yep. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** And, uh, do we have any questions from Council? No. Are we online? We are online, but we don't have anybody online. Do we have any public input? Roll call please. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Peterson? **Councilor Joe Peterson:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Geissler? **Councilor John Geissler:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor Hjelle? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Councilor LeBlanc? **Councilor Brian LeBlanc:** Aye. **Alissa McClure:** Mayor Boucher? **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Aye. Next, motion to recess. Do we have a motion? **Councilor Andy Hjelle:** So moved. **Councilor John Geissler:** Second. **Mayor Wayne Boucher:** Motion by Councilor Hjelle, second by Councilor Geissler. All in favor say aye. (Chorus of Ayes). Oppose same sign. (Meeting adjourned)