good evening ladies and gentlemen it is now 5 30 and i will call our work session to order and i would like to let everyone know that this is meeting is a hybrid you can we have people online and in person and all of our council members and staff are in the chambers and we also have the ability to have our residents and anyone else join us by going to burnsvillemnn.gov meetings or watch us on channel 16 or 859. you can also watch us on zoom by joining us at zoom dot us slash join and all of the information is available in our meeting web page in in our council agenda packet so welcome everyone uh we in our work sessions go directly to our agenda items and the first item on the agenda this evening is planning land use zoning training for the city council so jenny and staff thank you very much for thinking about us in that way but as i talked to my colleagues um so i've been around for uh two years on a council 28 as mayor and i've been to a lot of uh training through the land use and [Music] through uli and through the university of minnesota for land use zoning and planning and i checked with my colleagues and they have all gone through that vince when he was on this on the planning commission and uh council member um gustafsson has already gone through all of that uh with the land use and also lmc um and council member keeley has also done all of the training that has to do with land use and so has council member schultz so i understand that you have 75 slides and i thank you and and our team that's here from stantec but truly can you keep it high level and move us through this and get get us through in a half an hour because you're going to lose us with with a lot of that if you're doing a 101 and i don't know but 75 slides seems like a lot even if you go one minute per slide it's more than an hour just giving you some information so you don't lose your audience one of the things that any presenter needs to understand is your audience and what is their level uh of knowledge base so that they can engage so with that um members of the council we will do our best to uh to make this an efficient experience for you tonight um and i absolutely have heard your feedback on how we might better approach training opportunities in the future and we'll make sure that i will make sure that we talk to us first about our knowledge base and what it is that we need absolutely rather than assuming that we need something um because conversing with us we can give you some feedback about where we are in terms of our knowledge base i will make sure that happens in the future thank you that would be really appreciated and um so ms madden i really appreciate all the work that you've done and you're an excellent planner and also for our team members it's nice to see see stantec jenny back as out as part of our consulting team so it's nice to see them back and because they've always given us good information and listen one of my first teachers with john charlo one of my teachers too back in the 90s like 1995 when i went through all of that with john charlotte and then i've taken it over and over so listen um yeah john charlotte was my one of my teachers way back then and i think all of us have yeah and so it's good to see stantec back on our our pool it is very nice to see you too and we have heard loud and clear um that we need to be efficient with your time and so we're going to do that i think you know beth and i are going to kind of be flexible here um we have a few like yeah is sarah going to introduce you to see i i know you i know i i know the stan tech team but but you know uh others you know it's just so simple do the introductions or sarah can do it sarah you want to introduce yeah so it's good to have stantec back on the pool thank you thank you mayor and members of council uh i'm erin perdue this is my colleague beth elliott and we're here from stantec our minneapolis office we have done this training many times also and can certainly be flexible and i understand you have a busy agenda tonight too that you want to get to yeah because you know you guys have been part of minnesota urban land institute and you've put on a lot of these um and we've had a lot of it we understand and also what john has also taught us is to be nimble and flexible to the needs of our audience and so we will i think what we can do is hit some of the interesting parts and actually see if there's any discussion uh that the council wants to have if there's certain examples that similar to the ones we're going to bring up and we'll keep it we'll keep it very short very good yeah we appreciate that yeah all right then john trained you guys well yes absolutely um okay so uh beth and i are gonna tag team here a little bit um our first chunk of information is is about legal basics and i'm gonna skip you know kind of the why do we do zoning because it sounds like everybody's pretty clear on the legislative basis for zoning and why we do it or the history of why we started to do zoning if you go back if you've taken john's course oh yes or the history of how that course that course has a lot of slides on history we already cut most of those out and understanding that you're a pretty sophisticated community um but one of the things that we had in this section that is actually pretty interesting beth is going to go through that as a recent case and there are some lessons to learn from that so i'm going to let her go through this um we're going to stop frequently to see if you have any questions too so yeah i'll bet i'll let you go through that case um so the reason that i thought this case was interesting is i've been with stantec for five years before that i was in the public sector as a planner for a decade and a half and i was with city of minneapolis and this case hoyt versus city of minneapolis came up uh while i was the downtown planner for minneapolis does anyone is anyone mayor you're familiar with this case are others familiar with this case um luckily i didn't have to uh provide testimony as a planner um but many of my colleagues did so if you're unfamiliar with this this is kind of the epitome of a lot of times what counsels um how you balance the interest in uh before there's an application and when it comes to an application so this was if you can think about loring park in downtown minneapolis right across from the walker there's this beautiful hill of historic mansions and there was a developer proposing a very tall residential tower with some uh townhouse townhouse structures on the bottom floor um and when you can think about that hill uh it really does not fit into the existing character um but so what the planning commission did is the planning commission desi denied all the applications one of the applications in minneapolis they treat height with a conditional use permit rather than a variance um and which means that the onus is on the city to say why they deny a cup and they denied everything um and then the developer appealed to the city council claiming they were denied due process so there's some great there's some great quotes that really kind of epitomize uh this situation but at the trial the developer introduced a variety of emails from a council member to various constituents quotes like i have already come out against the height of this project i will continue to represent many voices in opposition to the project i will do my best to advocate against the appeal um and this is where the council member really got into unfortunately some hot water here because um the council member said please do not uh be spreading the word that i have made up my mind if the developer hears this they'll be rightfully questioning it but the challenge is not necessarily that she came to a conclusion the challenge is that it was very public the conclusion before there was any public hearing or the applications um so the district court uh decided uh that the council member did take a position in opposition to the applications and was close-minded during the hearing and um and it was a violation of the the the due process and so some of the lessons that particularly we in minneapolis learned that i think it taught a lot of planners uh in particular and elected officials is that you know we can't make up our mind and i know this is something that you think about all the time uh we sometimes have come to a conclusion you can't say publicly that you've made a conclusion right um before the public hearing uh and you cannot advocate for or against a certain part of the applications or the project before the public hearing and we must remain impartial and i think that this is this ends up being great area a lot of times when you're dealing with constituents and i think that in this case it was very black and white um but it was a lot of um for us uh and for planners in particular the comprehensive plan allowed that density the comprehensive plan allow that density the policy allowed that density and ultimately we always go back to what the policies the comprehensive plans say if there's a dispute between the zoning and the comprehensive plan and we inherently take all of our kind of guidance and uh rules on zoning from state enabling um statutes so we really have to look to the state and how they uh look at this and with the municipal planning act municipalities have discretion in land use um but there's certain a certain process that developers and property owners uh expect and the law requires yeah so even though we have a uh the comprehensive plan we already have tools on the table to amend the plan yes and and we can do that there's a pud there's depending on a cop and yeah john should have told you about some really very difficult ones that we had here in burnsville one is the amphitheater the other is the heart of the city because we increased density and the people didn't like density yeah well in in this case you know i always looked at the comprehensive plan as like my my well our rule book right um and but what's challenging about comprehensive plan that you deal with all the time in your decisions is that it's made to be flexible it's policy yeah so ultimately in this case the zoning hadn't caught up with it minneapolis is a big city it you know planners do not rezone uh you know the whole entire city after every comprehensive plan so um this was a major challenge and a discrepancy between the comprehensive plan and zoning and minneapolis has less flexible tools like your pud and so that's really where it got challenged does this bring up any other topics that you have wondered about related to discussions with developers and property owners and prior to a public hearing and how that might impact decisions or any other cases like this as the mayor said the most recent well we had the berean baptist church but a lot of that is a lot of also conversations with the neighborhood one of the things we do well here is engaging the community in conversations about what what they want what is the neighborhood one and what what does the church want it's their land you know right and it's so important to do that i think while you're doing the comprehensive plan so that everybody is on the same page if you can um and so yeah so that you don't run into these things that come up in accordance with the comp plan but the people don't want if you've done a good job with engaging during the comp plan then you won't have so many of those problems yeah well and even with with projects we engage the community i mean because they reach out to uh well to me and i'm sure they reach out to others too and we have the conversation what is the problem you know find the obstacles that are in a way and then find the solution yeah and move where do you draw the line though because we've you know we've got a blighted property in burnsville where i think all of us kind of have an idea of what we would like to see there and we've had two developers come to us in the past and brought us projects that we all kind of collectively just said um it wasn't a good use i don't think we like that but that was kind of predetermined based on what i think the council is looking for there yeah sounds somewhat similar to this case where i guess we weren't publicly announcing that prior to them coming but that seems like a gray area with regards to this it is it's about having a vision we have a vision for that particular property and we wanted high density mixed use and they were just bringing a multi-family housing that doesn't fit the vision for that and it's the same thing with the uh what is now known as the center village the mall and that was an engagement with property owners community and all of our stakeholders and yeah putting a vision in place is another way of looking at that it's in the comprehensive plan and we adopted all of the regulatory tools around all of that so we have we have a method of moving forward now as long as you're you know your vision is public and it's it's in the comp plan it's a you've made it a matter of record in your public conversations it's in the zoning then you've done what you should do um yeah i think the problem was in this case you know having conversations with constituents and making your predispositions to an application public before the meeting yeah everybody has a right to due process in a meeting and have a public discussion i think the gray area that you mentioned too is if the zoning code if the comprehensive plan allows mixed use on a site right and a developer comes with just residential what triggers do you have in your zoning code to require them to do that commercial along with the residential if you feel like your plan due to development allows you the flexibility to negotiate with a developer to get that commercial i think that that is the trigger but if your zoning if your policies say we want mixed use but yours and your zoning allows a mix of uses but doesn't require a mix of uses that's where it can be challenging so you can get yourself in trouble by over concentrating mixed uses in certain areas if you are sure kind of well you have to write your your language carefully if you you know as beth said if you have a mixed use district that allows a wide range of uses including a single use high density residential then you're you're kind of tying your hands to a wide variety of things that a developer might propose if you want to really require mixed-use vertical mixed use then you would need to say that in your ordinance or be firm about negotiating that in a pud well the other is that we have a couple of principles highest and best use of the property growing the tax base everybody knows that because that's our language we want to grow the tax base in highest and best use you know and we talk about that wonderful so it's not so developers know that if they're going to come you know what is the highest and best use right right um well this next section i'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on because i think you all know as a community what kind of support your staff provides um what the role of the planning commission is i know we have a few new planning commissioners that are watching remotely tonight um you know but in short you know the your staff are your technical experts they're the ones who do this 24 7 and can provide you you know professional recommendations the planning commission is where all the public hearings are held they make recommendations to you and then you make final decisions on all of your land use effort applications and so as long as everyone knows and respects what expertise they're bringing to the table i've seen some city councils that you know kind of try to bypass the planning commission and do their own thing and that's not good so you need to make sure you have good people on the planning commission that you trust and to make to make recommendations to you not that you always have to agree with them actually you know we have good good policies in place if it comes to us from the planning commission unanimous it goes on a consent agenda unless one of us wants to pull it for a separate discussion and vote otherwise we trust them we hired them we appointed them and our staff trains them and if we don't have the confidence in them then shame on us and then we have to make a different decision yeah yep absolutely well i think you summed it up well um the only other thing i'll mention and we kind of talked about this with the cake the case is you know making sure that all of your discussions and your consensus building and your deliberations happen out in public everyone has a right to know what you're thinking and how you make your decisions making a good public record and that goes for the planning commission and for council no our attorney tells that tells us that all the time and i always ask can you defend us in court anybody says yes we're moving on it's good to keep them on speed dial yeah so you know the tools that you have available the one thing i want to say is particular about the rule books what we're talking about is your comprehensive plan your zoning code your subdivision ordinance but we are very lucky in our region that our comprehensive plans get updated every 10 years we may not feel lucky when we're in that process of it with all the rules coming from that council but we erin and i work on with comprehensive plans that are 20 30 40 years old that don't match any of the zoning and that's when there's a real legal challenge on the day-to-day decisions that a council may make and like i said we always fall back on the comprehensive plan and so if you are judiciously doing amendments to your comprehensive plan that is the right way to go so you know if there's a certain site that you know the council has a vision on doing a comprehensive plan amendment is the formal process to really realize that vision um and ultimately if there are uh with the zoning code if there's certain variances that you are always always always approving to parking or you know that was the project i worked on with you um you should look at your zoning code and update your zoning code because if there's too many exceptions uh to the rules then that's the time to update your code we have a task force look working on all of those things yeah right yeah i remember that from when we were both doing the individual work with you that there was a list um so that's the primary um uh component that i want to say that these two to the zona coda and the conference plan obviously work hand in hand um and they need to be uh to match each other uh and can kind of be looked at frequently and it looks like you already yeah you're about a quarter of the way through your zoning code update as i understand two years ago no we we have about a couple of years okay maybe not a quarter of the way but yeah because we they were it's once a month okay and coming together because it's pretty voluminous it's a yeah that's a tough job and uh so uh yeah so that yeah we have a team of yep citizens working on it fantastic um all right so we'll dispense with because you already went through a comp plan update relatively recently yeah and um so the last segment here is about uses and applications and a lot of this is is pretty basic i think you all understand the types of uses that are in your ordinance but just to make sure you know there are principal uses which are the main things and accessory uses which automatically go with those things like a garage goes with a house right there are principal and accessory uses um and then there are also permitted and conditional uses right and you're all familiar with this conditional uses have to go through your planning commission and come to you for approval but permitted uses you can just do right away um yeah committed uses i think a lot of that jenny we do it administratively yes ma'am yeah yep um interim uses um the only thing that i'll point out the difference between an interim and a conditional use is that you can put a time limit on an interim use so if there's something that you want to tie to like a particular business or a particular owner you want to use an interim use permit because a cup goes with the land yeah and it stays there forever so but the review criteria are very similar yeah um non-conformities i know that when i worked on the heart of the city ordinance that we spent a lot of time thinking about okay we don't want to do anything with our ordinance that creates non-conformities if at all possible right so these are the structures or the uses that were legal at the time and then we changed the ordinance and now they're they don't conform with the current regulations and the main thing to remember here is that they're allowed to continue there's no reason that they have to go back and conform unless they're trying to expand and that's when you and i think as as you see more and more redevelopment you will see more and more legal non-conformities as your comprehensive plan and your zoning code change and it's not something to be scared and there are tools available to do all of that and it can be done exactly absolutely yep so you've probably seen that if if john shardlow gave you a good training 10 20 years ago you've probably seen this yeah yeah the pyramid of discretion right and you guys are you know finished your comprehensive plan a couple years ago and are diving into the zoning stuff now all the rest of it is either quasi-judicial or administrative and you have a great staff that supports you with all of that but the big conversations happen down in the orange area and sounds like you guys are are well um well into the second tier there yeah and especially we're we're about 98 built out so you know a lot of our work is around variances and yeah right well and trying to figure out you know redevelopments or expansions of uses or intensifying properties that are already being used for something but you know they want to improve themselves make themselves better so this non-conformity stuff is important um and yeah bringing sites slowly into compliance with your newest ordinances is is something to keep in mind too yes i'm sure you probably see a lot of cups and variances on individual properties rather than like a big new neighborhood right when we're working in the parking ordinance with you uh one of the issues was um uh commercial spaces that were being uh released to uh uses that were more um uh that had a lot more parking needs and um i think that is just a contin and it was perfect timing to work on something like that and evaluate how do you actually what tools do you have to enforce a parking standard when there's a release of a commercial space and so that's probably more and more of what you're going to see are these uses that we don't expect going into these spaces you know and uh our property owners like target they they came to us and said we don't need all that parking right because they look at where their experience begins is at the curb and in the parking lot and so they want a more pleasing um atmosphere in a parking lot more green space than parking and they didn't want all of that parking things have changed quite a bit you know i was gonna say there's fantastic planners working for target now that's great i know i'm kidding well so the only thing that i'll i'll this is one of those interesting points that i want to make sure to cover is um when you're creating findings of fact when you make a decision and this starts at the planning commission and ends with you all um it's important to have valid findings of fact that relate to what what's in your ordinance right so things like these are are appropriate you know whether it's consistent with the comp plan that it it meets the practical difficulty standard um you know that it fits in with the character all of that stuff is good to have in your public record and your findings effect um what we see a lot whether it's in the minutes or in the record or whether it's just the conversation is well this person lived here a long time what they're doing attorney would i'm sure right yeah like really nice guy no what's the big deal let's just let him do what he wants to do there are a lot of cities that do that and it all it makes us not only attorneys but planners just cringe yes um and so i'm glad your attorney is is on top of all of that um even if you're denying something you have to still remember this findings effect uh and not the key here is that if you have a lot of opposition to something that also doesn't necessarily mean that you need to deny it the reason that you deny something is because it does yeah i've been hung in effigy because of the uh of the um yeah the picture taken next to us oh yeah and it was outside and they were burning the energy outside and this had to do with the amphitheater and oh and and and john charlo was working with us at the time and that was yeah that's why you have consultants to help with that kind of thing no but but really um i mean what you need to base your decisions on is what are in those rule books that beth was describing uh and not just oh there's neighborhood i mean sometimes neighbors bring up valid points that you can consider in your finding effect but that's not the only reason uh that you would deny something and i think you guys yeah we didn't deny it even when bloomington says we're going to take you to court okay do what you need to do and he got some of our residents right to do that and then because they didn't like when i says well you know you do what you need to do we need to do what we need to do this is a valid application did all of the sound studies everything that was required they spent a lot of money on all of that so we moved ahead and all of the environmentals were all done it was a good application it would have been good for the city of burnsville yep so yeah as long as you stick with the rules a lot of times you hear good things from the community that can contribute to how you understand a situation but at the end this is what you guys get paid the big bucks for to uh to do the analysis with someone else clearly right yeah so um i will yeah i will wrap up you know you guys are good i said 30 minutes and you did it and mayor we have a lot of practice being nimble right and and so saying john is is he's he didn't retire yet no he still works full-time yeah because we're not making him come into the office anymore he's john right you know you let john do what he wants to do but he is uh doing amazing work well good then his email address is still the same and now it is absolutely an email yeah well you know if you guys have any you know issues that you want to bring up like i said i know planning commissioners are watching so we're always available for an email or a quick call if anything odd comes up um yeah do we just want to be a resource for you yeah uh cara you have any questions anything that uh burning in your heart any burning questions not really um i don't think it's any secret that i'm not a fan of zoning period i'm just not um especially in a city that is built out you know and believe it or not there are cities that simply don't have zoning and they thrive and they do well and so i i but i do understand that this is this is the system we are currently working within and you know we'll just we'll just muddle through zoning that's that's exactly an appropriate way to say it and zoning is muddling yes yeah councilmember keeley no burning questions councilmember workmen well this was helpful i don't have any burning questions um actually i just thought of one how is the city of minneapolis handling getting rid of their residential zoning codes now is that going to pose problems for them minneapolis is not getting rid of residential zoning what they're doing they're they're getting rid of the single-family residential zoning district the r1 district and it's a lot and this goes to the point of what's the how do you balance zoning minneapolis is trying to allow more flexibility in its residential neighborhoods for duplexes and um uh fourplexes buildings that still have that height and kind of the character same masses yeah they might have more units yeah but it's still very expensive to build on a little lot so um you probably won't see a lot of that but um they're tying much more um form-based elements to their zoning than they've had before yeah i i live in minneapolis well and we both work there and i i haven't seen a huge i think there was a fear that there would be a huge boon of single-family tear-downs and people building like three plexes or something that hasn't happened to my knowledge it was it was the same situation when accessory dwelling units were allowed in minneapolis and a lot of cities have followed suit with adus and they're just difficult financially and physically to do and so they work in some situations but not a lot yeah interesting just projecting what burnsville might look like in a few years got some revelations good you're good ladies thank you you did a fabulous job thank you so much no problem yeah stay safe very good thank you really appreciate it thank you okay thank you yeah okay our next item uh is a report and this is one that's really terrific and this is kramer mining and material coming and talking with about their development plan and ryan peterson our public works director is going to start out and we have a wonderful guest one that um mr ribisto that we know so very well and so ryan yeah thank you where's yours have a seat you can sit there if you like or you can send it to totally if you can't have a seat john as you um know the kramer mining materials was given approval for expansion of the mine to uh that will have mining going on there for more than a decade still from now um and we felt that the community council and community would be interested to see and hear about how kramer envisions development occurring there and what might be some of the triggers that they would use to start um actual moving away from the mining and towards a final end use plan so john will uh go through and help uh both you and the community understand what that looks like and i guess i work with john quite quite a bit and he's cramer's been a great partner with us on delivering water and they're in very good hands with him on the show and we continue to make collaborative progress on things that benefit both our city water supply and their mining operation so with that john aristo president of kramer mining materials thank you ryan thank you ryan thank you for for having us here tonight or me and representing kramer now as you know 60 plus years we've been running operating a quarry here in burnsville and we have to have a celebration 60 plus years you know 59 we started here we are 2022 so i'm doing my math right that's a little over 60 years and not without uh hiccups and challenges and and pushes and pulls but uh we're in a really good place right now and we really support uh the city of burnsville and and we really uh do that because we appreciate the working cooperation we have with staff and uh council and and everybody else it's been uh it's been really good uh working through problems and and that's what we do is we're constantly problem solving and there's a lot of questions that are often brought up to me whether we're i'm working on the city uh drinking water sump expansion or the the pud amendment and it was interesting listen here i think there's iup cups puds amendments to people these amendments to amendments we've got some things that we're gonna have to address in the comp plan in the southwest corner of the quarry as we mine through that section where simstone and the mulch store is there's going to be a different use there obviously long-term so all that seems really familiar but the questions are all often coming up um what are you guys doing next where do we go from here how many more years of mining do you have and the answer often is that all depends you know there's a lot of variables and i want to just go through some of the variables that we as a kramer mining are are discussing and working on uh long-term plan for on a daily weekly basis so with that i will uh proceed if i can figure this out right just a quick overview of the of the quarry and the operations just so everybody knows because there we go okay so i-35 over here uh to each of the quarry minnesota river is north of us freeway landfill uh superfund site is also to the north of us this is kramer property which will never be uh quarried or mined this is a freeway flood fringe this is the quarry um simstone's down here in this corner this is the city sump which uh ryan and and team and me and my team are working on the expansion of which is i'd say going along uh quite well our operations on the floor of the quarry and this all and represents about a 500 acre track of land of which about 350 of it will eventually be a pristine 100 foot deep lake uh in the south metro right here in burnsville pretty excited about that so one of the questions what are the things that i'm often asked city reservoir expansion how does that impact the life of the quarry it adds about five to seven years of additional mining uh the breadth of that expansion the depth and the square the area is it's about at the rate that we utilize that level of of aggregate in our quarry that represents about five to seven years of additional mining it's about a little over 2.8 million tons of limestone that'll come out of there uh the big pud that we just worked with the city on recently to get approved was the biggest chunk of that was the 35w mining and that there's a couple items here i want to discuss about one we were talking about iups and cups and we talked about the the reason why we needed to bring in uh material used for reclamation in large quantities and and have that material ready on the 35w site is about seven and a half million cubic yards of material we'll need to reclaim that site so that we can bring it back to a developable grade uh as rapidly as possible after we mine the aggregate out of there it added about 13 years of additional mining just that expansion on 35 w site um and please interrupt me yeah one of the things is that we've always talked about john with regard to um the reclamation of the site and in iup is accessibility because at one time didn't we have a road with it 117 that we were going to try and see if we can put a ramp in there so they have access to the to the site and for long-term uh development absolutely there's been discussions about an interchange along along in that area um also possibly a pedestrian access across the interstate from uh east to west um and and that was part of the discussion of freeway landfill if that becomes part of this whole development as well because when you're you're going to talk about some infrastructure if you're going to start building reclaiming the land and start an iup for buildings on that it's how you're going to access it what kind of infrastructure you're going to be putting into that right now um comprehensive plan shows how that may lay out it's very schematic in nature yeah um and we i would say we'll be back with grammars to figure that out in the future we just need to make sure that we don't forget that no that's a big big part of this long term and it's it is um you know it's conceptual right now but we have a lot of excitement about the future development of that and that's why when we looked at the value of the limestone and extracting that limestone uh it's just something that south metro is you know needs and so let's get the value out of there but then let's not shoot ourselves in the foot and destroy the beautiful development value adjacent to the lake along the interstate and so that the that that plan was hatched with conversations with me and you folks and problem solved how do we get to a solution where we get the value of limestone and yet we preserve the the tremendous development value along that lake along the interstate and we came up with a really good solution we were proud to be part of freeway landfill i get asked that a lot i don't know you don't know nobody knows we laughed about it yesterday um out loud so so loudly in a public sphere and it comes food a lot of places at the deli counter i'm an optimistic guy so when you ask me do we get somewhere with this and i said i i hope so and holy cow i said hopefully in our lifetime in our lifetime i don't know i mean we've been mining here for 60 years and and uh you know we still got 30 more years or so mining so um if i see it it'll be a medical miracle um the timing of that there's so many so many wild cards on that right we don't know it's very optimistic john i've been solving problems my whole life most of the problems i made myself solve them so i got pretty good at it um one of the questions that often comes up is is there potential limestone underneath freeway landfill if we were to remediate the waste and would the would they feel confident leaving the limestone in place is it going to be contaminated by leached material that it works its way through a poorer stone common sense to me says probably would we have a plan in place to mine that limestone absolutely we do and uh we can talk about that more when it's appropriate but yeah we do have a an idea and a concept in place on how we mine through and remove that limestone underneath there it creates a more attractive uh shoreline it creates other value to the development it's it's we've all seen the the renderings right it would be wonderful yeah it is it would be incredibly wonderful one of the things that it's a variable and it creates a bit of a challenge for us is this right here is a completed silt basin that was uh wash water fines wash mine fines that have been stored there for the last 25 30 years it's about 65 feet deep there's earthen berms engineered berms supporting that those fines material if we were to mine north through that north wall and into underneath that limestone we'd have to come up with a plan to remove a lot of silt there's and also a lot of that material that's part of that earth and burn so that's a big variable we don't have solutions for yet but working on and that's why when i say we're not certain how we're going to approach freeway landfill if that opportunity comes about in all the puds or in the pud and all the amendments um that area where the silk basin in has also been kind of identified as a green space you know whether these soccer fields or a park or whatever it's a it's a significant big area if we do mine through there then what do we do for green space i would i would still where the park is the the beach is being identified the beach is conceptually in and we've been planning for it is this right here close to that silt basin it'll be a big quarter quarter circle shaped beach with a real gradual slope going down into the lake near the development close to the green space but again if we mine through that north wall then what do we do for that green space we don't know we'll work together to figure that out we have time right this is one of the more recent ones that have coming up is the future lake elevation and that variable all along we've been planning at a future lake elevation of 690 feet the the river the means sea level for the minnesota river to our north is about 688 that gives a natural fall so the lake will always drain to the minnesota river in in in conditions that are rising now we're looking at do we have to hold that at a lower level at 680 instead of 690 it creates a lot of um challenges that again we're going to have to solve and i'll get into those in a little bit one of them is is edge treatments and the other one is this natural connection to the minnesota river we can't make water flow uphill um naturally we have to do it mechanically that's a long term for the for you know forever that lake if we have to maintain at a lower level will have to be pumped up and over and into the river because it won't naturally flow uphill and i'll show you that on a schematic some cross-sections i have the progression as we look at this the slide the progression just in big blobs that are our planning and we plan around the the beige colored areas are what we will be mining mining complete we start on the west side you see it goes from tan and then beige some i'm colorblind so deal with my description of colors you can see the the city sump and the this area i'm pointing at the screen and nobody can see my hand this area right here is the expanded city sump and if i go back you see the city sump here is is much smaller when we expand the city sump it'll it'll include quite a bit of this area out here as you'll see there so ryan and the team he has with barr and black veatch have done a great job we really appreciate the attitude and the work that we're doing together on that it's pretty exciting actually that's the progression northwest to southwest west to east to include the 35w site if you see we're going to start mining on this so where's my cursor the south side we mine from south to north and then we'll be reclaiming that as we go this is actually the the handiwork of some of my technical team this is uh actual graphics from our drone 3d um just again for orientation this is not the atlantic ocean this is the edge of the world from our perspective 35w yeah this is the mining site the interstate we're looking essentially southeast in this perspective this is the ramp that comes down into the quarry and our offices are right over here so this wall we have to leave a big chunk of that in place so that we retain the reclaimed filled material that will support uh 30 storage structures on the future development so a lot of this the next next progression is you see the wall of limestone which is a hundred foot wide is left in place except for a small opening down here we're mining from south near the near our offices and where mark marietta's asphalt plant is to the north this is a material that we have secured over many years to then backfill and reclaim the site it's a com engineer it'll be engineered compacted fill and then we mine all the way to the north end if you recall in in the the pud there will be a hydraulic trench mined and put in place along the interstate parallel to the interstate that hydraulic trench extension essentially creates a barrier to protect the black dog fen from the dewatering efforts from the city's sump and and cramer's ongoing dewatering efforts that was something that was a condition that uh was put forth and barr and my team put together a a solution for that which was it's pretty novel using a big hydraulic barrier we'll constantly be pumping water into that trench to keep it an active hydraulic barrier and the black dog fin on the other side of the interstate will be protected then the site will be fully reclaimed like i showed in the previous slide there's seven and a half million cubic yards of material that have to go in there to bring that back in material the cross section through that site here's that 100 foot bedrock wall that we'll leave in place the future lake to the west yeah and this is the reclaimed backfill area and these are to scale 20 stories is what i think i said earlier 30s 20 stories is what bar engineering said that this site would support engineering-wise with a 100-foot bedrock wall freeway landfill yeah i don't know don't the mayor laugh anymore than she did yesterday this is still our dream yeah i i still love our uh the vision for it i still like the solution it's a wonderful solution i love the vision if the state can and can and can get their motors running in the right direction and we can get things happening this can truly happen everybody on the kramer team believes this is not a panacea we can make this happen yeah i know um future lake elevations i just want to show this in depiction because a picture's worth at least a thousand words this is the um the the the section that we've been working along with all along our edge treatments and the pud and amendments have depicted this gradual slope holding the lake level at 690 so that pedestrians and users of the lake don't walk into a 100 foot deep lake they don't drown when they drop and and then in relation to the mine our our dyke rose the flood protection dike the minnesota river 688 and 690 that works water flows downhill gravity if we have to hold it at 680 now if you look up above this is now 680. our edge treatments that we've been mining and working along all all along have will create now a 100-foot drop-off so we're going to have to work with the city and staff to adjust our mining and that 30 foot of the meander line and our edge treatments otherwise we're going to end up with exactly what we don't want in that big drop off so we're going to mine back a little bit farther and taper that edge so that we have it's not just for pedestrian pedestrian safety but that shallow area is the little area for a lake that's the habitat it's the growth that creates the all the things that the fish and all the little animals in the water want right and they need to survive so we have to we have to uh talk about that we're not there yet and again in in the lower part of that slide at 680 and 688 we have no way to naturally fall and we've looked at this in a broader scale and said can we divert the water in a different direction and get it back to the minnesota river without going straight north over the dyke road or through the our pumping systems that we have now and i don't think it works uh we'll work more with ryan and his team on that but uh that's a challenge that's a big variable they have in front of us yeah i'll go to ryan and then to oh i'll go to dan keely and then i'll go to ryan question if you could explain for the viewers what was triggering the change from this long sought 690 that now has to be 680. yeah groundwater uh ryan do you want to answer that well let me let me at least start i i don't believe john was saying that 680 is the number now i think this was if we had to go down here that's what this would be so what the challenges are we are not at the city we are not looking at 680 at this point but if we are at 690 there could be some other mitigation things we'd have to do so yeah we need gravity related to the flooding presentation that we were given how are those related flooding might be more concerning than i think actuality dan but it's um it's a concern right that the models show that at six at 690 the groundwater table rises to a level that is concerning whether it be flooding or or just water that's moving in directions we don't want it to move in i'm not sure yet you know it's it's still a model and it's a study and so the discussion has been could we hold the lake at a lower elevation and how does that impact the groundwater is that fair ryan i think it is i just i would just say that we are currently getting our modeling results and getting out to agencies and property owners the next phase of study will be mitigation measures to if we want to be at 690 what are we going to have to do so we don't have groundwater going into basements and having our pipes inundated with water so that's that's where we're at and i think there is real plenty of engineered proven engineered ways to deal let's deal with 680 there's some real simple solutions that we just have to come to agreement on regarding the cramer property and how do we move water at those elevations to where we need to move it we can solve those problems 16k yes 690 okay yeah just this is questions for my own and others other benefits as well because we were presented that circumstance of where the water table would be um and you noted the river is at 688. so 690 is only two feet higher right doesn't sound like much what and this might be a geological question i apologize what causes the river to be at 688 but doesn't present that same um water table issue on those properties down by the river that 690 to two feet higher with the lake suddenly does i can't answer that i'm not sure exactly you know if it's just the the bedrock formation between the river and everything you know down south of that i i i would think more a lot as more geological you know barrier um but you remember in flooding conditions the river's much higher than 60 feet right and salt the salt property yeah really understands all of that and how that happens flood events happen like the yellow freights and everybody that's down in that area they're not dealing with water tables flooding their property or anything so even though that water table with the river comes up quite high it doesn't necessarily always pose an overall water table rise in that entire area but the lake seems to be one that's suddenly at least forecasted is having that effect right the lake goes up that causes flooding everywhere the river goes up it doesn't really cause flooding well we've been de-watering at 3 billion gallons a year right so and we've artificially lowered we've seen that with all the mpca studies on freeway landfill and the impacts and the protection of the water that we've artificially lowered you know at that point um you know the the deepening and the expansion of the city sump will also help in that too is that that'll actually become the deepest the place that water is drawn from within that whole footprint it'll be deeper than anything that we have that we mine so that'll be beneficial to this process as well but you know us there's a 100 foot 350 acre hole and with pumps at the bottom of it you know we we do a lot to keep those flooded conditions from going south sure thank you with me right so i'm not a hydrogeologist i'm going to pretend to be but um good yeah that's right did you stay at a holiday in express um thank you i think it's the fact of the surface water aspects of the river and moving on through compared to the water literally coming up from the ground water it's going to take six years to fill up that lake and i think it's that groundwater moving up that gets it more than the surface water right through and it's coming from underneath rather than the water that's getting over the top yeah and and you all have spoken to that it's that groundwater as it comes up and then when we have the flooding it's yeah that's where the water table was if you look at the pictures that cramer has on file from when they first first put a shovel in the ground in 1959 yeah it was a marsh that whole area around there was a little wetlands well you only have to look over to the east side of the freeway when it starts to flood and you see what happens over to black dog and how many times have we seen that road get go underwater and then it becomes a huge issue to clean up the mess we're snowplowing yourself now we have uh xl take care of the road it's now their road it is sometimes silt is a really fine sand right yeah it might be good beach materials the last point that's a variable that we're dealing with or not really dealing with but we're now mining with this in mind is is uh prior to the the pud and the bar study that just recently looked at the depth of the the quarry they have been monitoring and looked at a lot of data for a lot of years the the water table pressure pc but we have p piezometers throughout the quarry that measure the pressure pressures uh of the sandstone the jordan's handstone and the aquifer underneath and uh the original depth of mining was based on their their belief and their engineering calculations at that time what the pressures were uh when we asked them to go back and reevaluate that they have said that the pressures in that area are much less than what they originally estimated in their engineering data and therefore have revised their depth of mining recommendations and that is the information that we are using now the conclusions and finding in the bar report it was the same hydro geologist that did it originally it's a very well respected a team at bar to include at the point of that uh ray willow and uh so his his uh conclusion findings recommendations were um that there's estimated three to eleven more feet of rock that can be mined across the quarry than previously estimated doesn't seem like a whole lot but over you know 350 to 500 acres three to 11 feet make a significant difference in the value of the asset so and they have uh uh suggested and recommended and we are in the process of uh installing additional piezometers to continue in more data points measuring that pressure and if we ever see any increase in the uplift pressure in that then we would immediately cease mining to it that's three to 11 feet deeper than than we would but the whole the whole trick to that from a simple engineering and a buoyancy is you have to have enough mass on top of the uplift pressure of the artesian jordan aquifer to keep it in place and not crack and fracture and flood the quarry and that pressure is less than what they originally engineered many many years ago and so we could take a little bit more of that mass out and again make the most of the asset that we have um these are a busy picture but the 2014 data that we used this is the depth of mining 21 is the new and um this graph though is the is what we're now using as our bases for drilling and blasting and mining what you see on there uh in the northwest corner it says minus 11 feet that means in that area we can go 11 feet deeper in that area we've already mined through that area so we're not going to be but we can go 10 feet deeper than adjacent and you see these contour lines based on the varying pressures throughout the breadth of the quarry this is what our plan is now so it's a little more rock that's what i have those are all the variables that we deal with on a you know ongoing basis at kramer and i am here to answer any questions that i'm able to john i don't have any questions i just have i i just have um comments to make in thanking you uh and your team in continuously working with us on solving all of these problems because at the end of the day it's about your property and the value that it's going to have when you're done mining and the mixed use it so what it is that we need to do to partner and work together what i've always appreciated is that when you come you give us good information now sometimes we may not agree on some of the things but you know one of the things that i really appreciate john is that we work walks work through the problems identify what the obstacles are and then find the solution that would be good for kramer and for the city and i i just speak for ownership they also appreciate that um and you know they send us force to afford to the wolves uh and and it's not that at all we have these conversations it's a very cooperative we solve problems we don't always agree on everything but it doesn't uh create barriers it just if there's a problem let's solve it if we can't come to agreement let's move on yeah well david kramer really established a great culture in partnership and where there are some challenges we work through all of those together we just had a little hiccup in some of the transition that took place but those were solved and ownership took made some decisions that was very helpful to all of us file cabinets follow those hiccups in my office it's been good i do appreciate the cooperation and the ability to pick up the phone and call any of you council mayor staff i've never been intimidated to pick up a call i'll pick up the phone and make a call to any of you that's that's very helpful see the thing is it's about all of us working together amen for your good and for the good of the city at the end of the day that's what it is it's not about power and control here no yeah i agree so i thank you and again you've come and you know you're consistent with with your message well the only obvious they just pulled around my back and i started talking to chatty cathy thank you all very much yeah wait dan keely has uh just uh thanks for giving this update this is very comprehensive and and really uh it's been a while since we've looked at something like this i'm glad you put that billion dollar development idea in there too because that certainly looked a lot better than the green pyramid that the mpca is continually proposing and i wanted to just thank you for your uh your approach to working with the city uh you've been great to work with your predecessor was great to work with uh but you're always uh you know willing to have a conversation and um support the community and have open transparent conversations about what what the the mining operation is and what the future holds and if you're going to be there another 30 or 35 or 40 years so be it uh construction and development in our area personally yeah oh no we want you medicare well the thing is you're building the culture you're continuing the legacy of david cramer yeah we do have a good team over there and and dave evans yes um and uh but no thank you i mean it's great to have with a massive operation like that an aggregate operation of that scale uh it's great to have a relationship that we have and that's thanks to yourself and your predecessor that has always uh you know nurtured this relationship and been very productive and very mutually respectful so it doesn't matter if we disagree we can work it out through mutually effective respectful conversations and there's never any question of the integrity of either side and that's that's nice to have yeah thank you thank you love working with you so thank you so much for coming in before we get to the next item we are going to take a seven minute break we'll recess for seven minutes and come back okay welcome back we're back from recess and the next item on the agenda is the phase three facility study introduction of our team garrett beck director of parks recreation and facilities is going to introduce the team and that is the nature of tonight's report garrett floor is yours thank you madam mayor good evening council and mayor i'm here tonight to take us through the phase three facility study uh the introduction i'm giving right now is actually going to be appropriate for the second study the introduction that's coming up after this we're actually running two studies simultaneously with our consultants and i'd like you to have the opportunity to meet both of them so real quick our agenda i'm going to give a brief history talk about our core team go over what our guiding principles are for our projects and then turn it over to our consultants to introduce themselves and talk about what the plan is for the study so our history about a decade ago we actually got really intentional about looking at our existing facilities a lot of them were 25 to 45 years old trying to figure out what the existing conditions were how do we plan for our cip to maintain them and how is our community changed and what are the needs of the community for the next 20 to 30 years and so we did that by doing a study that actually had four of our buildings it was city hall police our two fire stations and our old maintenance facility across the civic center here and the result of that was we completed that study uh through 2014 and it was uh accepted by council in 2015. from that the police project was identified as the highest priority and so we started that in the planning for that in 2016 and completed that in 2018 from a construction standpoint um the phase two construction project was fire station one uh which we had deemed had reached its end of life and i'm pleased to share that our fire department was able to move into that facility earlier this year and just a public service announcement we have our grand opening for the public on may 7th which is a saturday so feel free to join us at that and that fast forwards us to today the phase three study so seven years of over seven years have passed since we did the original study a lot of things in our society and in our workplace have changed and it made a lot of sense with all those changes to to look at the two buildings that were in phase three which was city hall and fire station two to redo those to make sure that things are accurate and then also our maintenance facility is now 22 years old and it seemed appropriate to get that involved in this process as well so that's kind of what we're talking about tonight so our core team you know our core team is really about setting um the the strategic direction um for the project working with not only the staff members but our consultants to really help us figure out what that strategic direction is and then also as issues arise that group helps to make decisions on how we navigate through those issues real quickly our core team members are our city manager green greg lindbergh community development director jenny faulconer public works director ryan peterson our police chief tanya schwartz tom venables our i.t director chris larson communications and community engagement director carissa bartholomew human resources director and then we also have jeff fraddick who's our assistant uh public works director dan hill who is our maintenance supervisor who works on all of these buildings and daniel tintner who is our interim finance director so this group is meeting weekly almost on uh and occasionally we cancel those meetings if we don't have a need to meet but doing a lot of work to help us through this process and then obviously the consultants are an important part of that core team as well our guiding principles so in 2016 for the police project we established guiding principles they're essentially setting our values uh for the project uh with the idea that you know everything that we do should be able to feedback within those guiding principles and i've worked we've talked with the consultant not only are they very aware of what they are but tonight's presentations they'll talk about how they're looking at this study through the lens of what our guiding principles are and helping us to navigate that information so real quickly i'm going to get them all up here at once because our consultants are going to go through them a lot more in detail but here's a look at our eight guiding principles for both of the studies and with that i'm excited to introduce susan morgan is with bkv and their firm i was we were extremely impressed from the city's perspective on the team that they brought together to help us through this process she'll go into detail on who who it is but it's it's an it's an excellent group of individuals and we've had a pleasure working with them thus far so oops and there's clear communication all right susan take it away wonderful welcome thank you all very much glad to be here tonight so for the city hall police and maintenance study our team is led by bkb group we've been working with municipal clients since our founding in 1978. we are specialists in police fire public works municipal facilities and our partners on this are our hotel architects specific expertise with public works assessment kraus anderson who is our partner on this both for cost estimation for the facility assessment and for providing that strategy about how to phase the potential projects once recommendations are developed and we're also working with true north for technology consulting because that's a really critical part of facility success so as mr beck noted for us the guiding principles are a lens for the action and the priorities and the recommendations that we develop and so what you see on screen was our team's start at actually paralleling the principles into components of facility planning and space needs so picking out a couple of these that when we talk about a space that's healthy we're really concerned with indoor environmental quality when we talk about sustainability is both a building performance aspect but it's also a longevity and a responsibility and so for us all of these are are things which come into play in every step of our process going through i just want to note um you're one of the few cities that has a plaque like you do outside of the city council chambers that this building is for the people and so as we talk about this long-term investment it's the people's house exactly and so it is really critical for us that that is in the forefront of our team's mind as we support these plannings and these recommendations we want to make sure that facilities are supporting service delivery that they're encouraging people to connect with resources that we continue to follow through on the commitments that the city has made for sustainability and wellness and being mindful that spaces need to be both welcoming inviting and also safe and secure and so part of that folds into both our assessment and our planning recommendations for planning outcomes we really are mindful of two sets of users as much as the buildings must in need support the community they also must in need support your staff and the work that they do both collaborating with one another and providing distinct services so our our goal here is to assist you in understanding um and planning ahead so that you can be proactive with your investment in facilities and that it isn't as something breaks or as something fails you have to react to it you can actually plan ahead um to accommodate changes in evolutions in service and that it allows you to be fiscally responsible to actually parcel out your projects in ways that allow you to manage your investments over time so our approach is sort of multifaceted and as you see the guiding principles are of course the umbrella to this in an assessment study like this our team is working on multiple tracks at once on the one hand there's an analysis process we have to gather the information so that we can really be a tool and a conduit for objective recommendations so that's taking in information from your facilities from dialogue with your staff even as you see at the bottom even engagement is part of analysis and then at the end we go through a process of cost estimation as well so on the one hand you can read this diagram as a series of parallels the analysis the critical path milestones the assessment and engagement but you're also seeing kind of color wise how this also their tasks in each tract which come together so we're looking at the buildings as physical resources we're looking at the spaces for how they support your operations your functionality and your service delivery and then for us the heart of this is an exploration as needed of space plan recommendations that's either interior reconfigurations that might be some recommendations about investments in the exterior of the building or the site in the landscape and that we proceed in a way that allows us to engage both you as key stakeholders to connect with other community stakeholders in the broader burnsville community and to feed all of that information into a set of recommendations that we then structure through a series of phasing if needed and through cost estimation and then there's this object a final report that you get to use long term over time for implementation on this next slide here this is mapped to schedule and you can see in another way that there are these parallel tracks the key pieces to point out here is that as we're doing our work kind of inside the walls of city hall and and maintenance and public works we're also starting to work outside the walls our community engagement happens at three points starting right now we're connecting with the community for primary visioning once we have options developed we will share them with the community for input and feedback and then once we have the voices of both the community and yourselves we hone in to either a single option or two options most typically and then proceed with that final kind of evaluation of phasing and costs and i actually got ahead of myself here so i'll be even shorter on this slide so our goals with stakeholder and community engagement are first of all that we're establishing transparency this is a public project we're investing in public facilities long term so it's critical that we have those voices that we connect with on the one hand we're doing that to be transparent on the other hand it's really important to gather those multiple voices and multiple perspectives each of you is used to using this building in a certain way that's a particular voice that we want to connect with we want to connect with the folks who come in to pay bills we want to connect with those people who don't currently utilize city hall that aren't aware that it's a resource and then it's a way to connect both to resources and to governance you're seeing here a list of stakeholders and again that reaffirmation of the potential project touch points that we're looking at to summarize where we are today our focus in phase one to gather that visioning is we're doing that at a grassroots level we're providing comment cards that are available at your service counter we have us and that's a short four or five question little survey those will be available for folks like crystal lake that's renting a space downstairs tonight those will also then go out into kind of key community meetings in the near term phase two may or may not be a digital survey or a public open house and for phase three we'll look at the methodologies that we utilize thank you very much any questions it's good to have the information in the process and thank you and welcome thank you very much yeah okay very good the next one well it's good to see you again okay all right yada yada yada blah blah blah so again this is uh the the introduction is the exact same we're running this parallel and so i'm going to jump to the introduction of our consultant for the study for fire station 2. quinn with cnih architects has been an absolute pleasure to work with for the last two years now he's been part of our team that helped us design and construct fire station one which has just been a great addition to our facility system and for our fire department so it was a very easy decision when we were getting to this point to invite quinn back to the table to be part of this study and to work with our team he has intimate knowledge of our organization and of our operations and it's just going to help streamline this process so with that um and i will say i as i'm flipping through our core team is our city manager greg lindberg myself terry and bj for this particular project so it is not the same as the ones for city hall and police with that gwen hudson cnh architects welcome back quinn yeah thank you mayor council nice to be here tonight i look forward to it i just wanted to thank you for the opportunity again to extend our relationship with the city of burnsville as mr beck mentioned we've spent a lot of time working together on station one but we've also reached further back to the abel training facility as well and look forward to future projects as well so thank you for that opportunity and okay uh just as a quick overview you i'm sure remember some uh past experience but we're uh apple valley based architectural firm that is really a lead leader in public safety design we have done large numbers of both studies and fire station designs additions and models of all types around the minnesota area that kind of the process that we're kind of starting up in the middle of right now is kind of information gathering the early stages of that um and with that we've been doing staff interviews and and stakeholder feedback you know working to you know learn more about uh this the process particularly at station two obviously we know a lot about the department uh overall from our our you know work on station one but we're we're also looking at the in developing a good and in-depth understanding of the building and the site that station 2 sits on and and things related to that existing conditions evaluating ordinance and requirements for the site and then of course looking at applying and comparing that to uh fire station design standards of all types whether it's just national best practices nfva standards uh building codes ada uh you know all the things that that go into making a you know top-notch fire station facility so uh real quickly the history of this uh station two it was built in 88 so it's 34 years old it's about a 13 500 square foot facility uh six small single depth uh apparatus base so it's um and back in uh approach at the moment so that's kind of the building that that's existing you know obviously we're looking at in much more detail but at a high level that's uh you know the outline of that guiding principles uh i won't go through individually i will be shortly as but my point in the on this slide is the point is that we are looking at uh the uh current facility and the goals through this lens as we've talked earlier of the guiding principles and how that fits and so that's what i'll be looking at how do under each guiding principle what are the things we're looking at uh through the you know this study so first of all is it welcoming to the community so do we have a clear entrance how does that relate to those coming to uh have service or connections with the fire department at this location uh is public parking uh clear and safe what's that location uh is this sufficient or that connection to the public that we've been able to offer in station one is there some amount of that opportunity so is it welcoming we'll be looking at effective use of space and how is that uh being met at the at the station or what are some of the shortcomings of space use uh flow flow is really critical for a fire station uh you know flow of whether it be apparatus uh or flow of uh the firefighters you know from where they are when a call arrives so flow's really critical we'll be looking you know in that in a lot more depth uh of course we're also looking at um efficient and effective uh categories and in um building systems whether it's be mechanical systems building envelope elements within the building but just seeing you know how is that meeting the efficiency and effectivity test inability similarly uh you will be in inventorying all the existing building systems and seeing you know are they efficient users of energy and of other sustainable features uh you know analyze that we look at environmental factors on the outside of the site and see you know where that fits into current goals and kind of compare all that into an overlay of lead strategies much like we did with station one functional and flexible and another you know key uh guide so we'll be looking at our space needs being met is it functional for the department are there shortcomings what what does that look like uh what about the future what are we are we meeting today's needs but of course are we also meeting long-term needs for the city and the department uh we'll be looking at how it's organized is it uh you know does it work well is it working well for the the staff now is it working well in the ways we need to move into the future um and then operational flexibility are there spaces that can be used to meet more than one need is it being you know efficient in that way and of course is it uh generally meeting the accessibility guidelines as well healthy is key uh especially in in today's uh you know fire department world uh you know the health of firefighters uh is you know critical uh and something that's really uh been you know top shelf for the last you know about 10 years and then really a lot of focus on that so of course we'll be looking at carcinogen and toxin separation are we you know decontaminating and removing uh those contaminants you know from the firefighter environment what's the opportunities there how is it meeting the current building meeting those guidelines mental health uh physical fitness things like that as well to maintain a healthy and strong firefighter and you know and support the department that way also kind of similarly acoustical there's a lot of aspects between residential areas of the fire station and the operational side you know where acoustics is really critical is that being met in the facility in what ways can that be addressed you know better safe also very very important aspect for the fire station operations for there we will be comparing to national nfpa or national fire protection association standards for station design and looking for making sure that all the uh best practices for firefighter safety you know are being met in the uh in the facility in ways that could be improved or looked at building codes of course we'll be looking at that and with a goal that the in the end the facility meets a safe secure uh operational uh environment for the firefighters uh operating out of there and for public visiting and of course meeting best practices throughout very important still fiscal responsibility as we're looking at the study as we develop it near the you know later options we'll be looking at how can we meet uh different goals and you know as uh fiscally responsible ways as possible being objective about different choices and what the trade-offs are that and what costs might be involved um looking both at current cost but also what's long-term cost whether the operational or building costs uh so that uh you have a facility that provides value to the city for many decades to come and then of course balancing those as always the case with the financial goals is to balance what's the you know the best long-term goal while still minimizing costs and getting you know the best end result so with that those are kind of the way we'll be looking at the study to filter it through the guiding principles um after we kind of get that initial gathering of information portion uh you know done we'll be looking at you know space needs we're and really developing how big and how many and what are the issues and things they're shortcomings on the facility uh we'll analyze the existing building of the systems um and compare it again to that list of things we just went through and then we'll develop concepts on that and this is an example of one of the early concepts there's an early one it's not you know how station one ended up but the idea of just what are those spaces how might they organize around each other and what does that mean within a facility we'll be looking at you know an option to work with the existing site and we also know with some goals of the ability to have drive through bays we know that's not a possibility on this existing site so we'll look at other options that would uh provide that as a as an option as well just to be so that we've had a broad interview of what that might be and look at both of those approaches so with that that's an overview of our approach so thank you for the opportunity to present it to you and if you have any questions let me know councilmember keeley fire station one is about as ideal as any fire station could be given the land circumstances in the building etc is it feasible to achieve the same safety health separation et cetera et cetera at the fire station 2 site that's what we'll be looking at um you know they're we're not far enough along and to really have an answer to that but that's certainly what we need to be identifying um it's certainly uh you know i anticipate there will be some balance on that and then challenges to make that happen so we will be looking at it but that's what we'll be bringing back the options to evaluate thank you okay member keely madame i think we we are far enough along to know that if drive through bays is the standard that's not a possibility at that site members of the council i think we know on that site as they're saying it's not a possibility to change the lines and then just trying to get the trucks behind that building to come back it's i think we know it's not a possibility on that site there's a lot of challenges on that site vince well i know we're early but have you designed buildings up i mean could you go up a third story then allow a tuck under you know yeah we drive through looked at that we did actually our groundbreaking on a project for bloomington that was very tight site and um we looked at whether it was going to require a third story we ended up being able to meet their more limited goals but uh meet that uh with only two stories in a basement a full basement under that portion but it was close and uh we had we did explore options uh to go up higher um you know it you know then we're looking also at massing and uh you know community fit and other things as well but yeah because i've looked at that and dan and i went on on one of the trips to look at fire stations and police stations richfield went vertical and so you know i looked at that site and he said is it vertical possibility but when you take into consideration drive-throughs doesn't work there's a lot of part pieces about that site if we had to forethought perhaps 10 years ago 15 years ago to buy part of the land that is now townhouses that would have helped everything huh so we can buy dairy queen the hell you say yeah yeah no so the thing is you know um i appreciate the team that's being put together uh our staff um greg you and our leadership team and we trust you you're the experts of the delivery system and you know what we want that we want to uh deliver services to our community and when you bring back your findings with regard to the project i remember the facilities the first facility study the next was police fire city hall so when you come back it'll be interesting to take a look at that and also i know the big challenges for fire station 2 because if part of what you're going to do is also find land that's part of should be in your should be part of what you're exploring because we as decision makers need to know all of that yeah madame are members of the council um as i reflect back on fire station one's project um terry and and chief jungman were kind of leading a separate analysis of the community and response times and things like that on if if fire station old fire station one site wasn't the right location if that's what we got to what were our options and i know through discussions and early stages they're looking into those types of things i think our goal will be if if station two site is the site what is the best that we can bring forward if that is not the right site for whatever reason then you know cnh quinn has been tasked with what is what is the square footage that we need what does that you know if we do find that land how do we how do we make sure it's the right size it has the right and it's in the right location that meets the service area that's the big thing of course you know i think that's what we're working on bj myself is the dry drive time analysis through gis and stuff to make sure it's placed in the right spot if we have to move it because i know that you did that when we were really looking at fire station one and uh available land and where was it and then of course the infrastructure needs around all of that so we were lucky to find the property on noon now i don't i i'm driven around our community to take a look and see what is available unless we took some parkland a river view i know but mayor and council we i have absolutely been in conversation with both terry and bj along with garrett uh this project will allow us to look at those options and get you the information the data that you need to make good policy decisions whether it be about fire station 2 the order of these projects um or back to your budget conversation uh just last tuesday right now we have a 26 million dollar placeholder this work through june when you'll see both bkb and cnh back in front of you will allow us the opportunity uh to get that information and data in front of you not only on on fire station 2 but on the potential of the city hall project uh as well as the potential as well as the maintenance facility yeah good news is that we have built a lot of buildings over the years in this city we're pretty experienced at it so i'm really looking forward to the recommendations coming to us yeah so what i'm saying to you tonight and this will take some community engagement if you're going to look at some of our property and what's available might be some parkland because there's not much around in madame are members of the council we we've had discussions on that there are certainly some challenges on at least one of the nearby pieces of park property um but that doesn't mean that i think again at the end of the day yeah our goal is to bring back something that could be successful on the current site that's all of what you all i'm just saying is that you know there are opportunities we just have to think differently about all of this uh and and and get it done because i know the site that we have now not going to meet the highest and best use and excellence of service that we expect a swap so that the current fire station would then become a park and then we can do anything we want vince anything comes from every workman counseling i think we can do anything i got a wish list no just about this just about that's a good point and i i probably have driven our team a little bit nuts because i'm pushing for a pretty high level of creativity as we think about these needs and we think about the information and the data that we bring back to you on all three of these projects knowing that at the end of the day we need to inform a good policy decision uh from from the council on what the future of our facilities fund uh the the placeholder we currently have and the impacts that that has not only on your budget but at the end of the day on our service delivery to the community so that's what we'll use the next several weeks to do and get back to you again in june as we've committed at your at your work session well being that we're in redevelopment mode in this city i wouldn't say it would be out of bounds to look at just other properties if there's a reasonable buy somewhere for us too councilmember gustafson heard absolutely and chief gentlemen and chief ritchie are working diligently with the the project team and and we'll work with cnh today we looked at some properties for fire station one and some that were way out of bound in terms of what they wanted we looked at nine different properties yeah yeah we did drive time analysis on all of them and we're kind of like i said there's a we've looked just just a small window looked at is there any property around and there's a few that but there's we have no drive time analysis yet anything of that nature that chief gentleman wants to do still so before we before we put it get it to the team and back in front of you guys and we trust you you've done some great work and with uh with fire station one and other things that we've done and you know what the bar the the you set the bar high we expect that and more and when you build the nicest fire station in the midwest it's hard to top that you can bring us a shack yeah but you know it'll be great to see um the facilities needs all of it okay there are some of us who have long memories so thank you very much and we have a great group of people working on it two great consultants and we look forward to getting you more information and in moving this along so i'm really happy that when i look at the compliment of the staff team that we have community engagement the communications team why in this day and age it's important for us to communicate communicate and let our people know what's going on we've set that bar high and we will continue to strive to make it higher okay and i trust you will okay anything else council members thank you thank you very much thank you really appreciate it nice work nice work okay reports vince you have anything um i'm gonna let our chair go over some fire mustard highlights other than that i have nothing okay yes uh found out today that uh jim sanders is leading america and so he'll be leaving the cbp and he's our chair so oh wow fortunately we have our meeting next week so we'll be able to discuss all that yeah so that's interesting and the vice vice chair is oh god i can't remember offhand be honest with you yeah so the uh the other thing is on our citizen tax force you've probably already seen in our preliminaries we're going to be looking at the liquor ordinance coming up just to make you all aware that that's coming back to us with a split vote it was a thai vote and the the what they're discussing is where the split came in is whether it should still be single buildings and whether we should just still have our three percent limits and that's where yeah i was kind of surprised when it happened but it's but that's that's coming back to us so the it's going to be a discussion yeah so everyone's aware and and and i've heard from the prop from the uh license holders what's that and i've heard from the license i'm sure you have yeah they were they were actually at one of the meetings we had yeah we just discussed that not but we did it we did we did we did have a task force now yeah here we go again yeah oh we got lots of stuff yeah okay carry the massages i'm ready for that one i'm sure you are uh so really the big thing is and i don't have anything to report yet because it has not happened but tomorrow the dbb meets the county is doing a presentation at that and i think um after we get that presentation we we might be on a little firmer ground for knowing what's happening and uh then we can go from there okay good yeah and i want to thank um really great reporting uh greg with everything that's coming out of the dvd and and and sending us the information that came from the county because that allows us to really be on top of it as we continue to move forward yeah because that was it it was they had it that they were going to make a decision and then it they backed off and so and the slides gave some good reasoning why they are taking some time along with council member uh schultz uh tom venables is doing a great job of uh working with our partners and the dvd board as well as the county and other agencies so i will continue to do that yeah thank you councilmember keeley boy you guys over there at the at the mvta what and look at all the things so all of these letters of support to get money from the feds is that all part of that bus garage board oh the board the new boardroom yeah that's that was actually done months ago completed months ago yeah completed months ago it's been waiting for us to come back in person really beautiful we had our uh our sta meeting there at the brunswick bus garage in the new room at a conference table that's in front of the uh the new board deus and it's um it's pretty nice it's reminiscent of of ours only a darker wood that's very nice um uh sta mbta express service is slowly coming back but we got a long way to go mvta connect expansion in eagan the on-demand uber type uh we we expanded that into the eagan area and it is almost instantly 48 of all of our micro transit trips how is it in burnsville because i see it all over there all over everywhere we were really surprised uh that uh the expansion up into eagan ended up being the the demand is higher unbelievable oh yeah more so than burnsville yes much more than burnsville it's it's literally half of all mvta micro transit trips are in eagan um and it actually we have all of savage burnsville and eagan and eagan was the latest expansion and instantly it exploded and you know one of the things that i think that mvta could do a little bit more of is more communication of all of the connect service yes marketing is a it's always a challenge in a public transit operation it's not like they have a huge marketing budget but um they do incorporate a lot of uh digital marketing and of course bus wraps and social media but um you know they're not gonna they're not gonna you're not gonna see ads on network tv or anything like that but so along that lines however a very exciting announcement we just approved funding investing in a brand new mbta app which brings together the on-demand and the mvt bus however it also integrates ride share services so a person can say i'm here and i need to go here and that might involve getting picked up by an mbta connect bus being taken to the transit station to ride a bus and then being picked up by an uber to take them to their final destination all inside one app this was an idea that i pushed really hard for myself actually at our retreat several years ago about four years ago five years ago and uh and i just said i look at things through the guest experience purely what is going to be the most logical and easiest for me as a transit writer to go from point a to point b when i'm crossing different transit lines or i need to be picked up at my house because maybe i've got mobility challenges and i can't get to the transit station because i'm not going to drive so how do we get that person there and then how do we get them to the final destination and what's the last mile look like if the last mile is a significant distance from the you know the last bus stop so this new app was innovated by the dallas area transit authority and they are actually they innovated it and now they have built it to where they're reselling it to other transit providers around the country um and so um we just voted on that at our last meeting and very i'm i'm like i was super excited i said well let me let me make the motion to prove because this is a this is a big day uh because this is a huge improvement for uh the writer and convenience all in one app um and and the payment would be so even though they might be taking an uber either on the first leg or the last leg the last mile all of that would be paid for integrated through the app um so it's it's a one one one click yeah it's one click uh ride mapping a route and paying so it's really really gonna be awesome we also um through met council funding um net transit mech council funding we're buying 10 additional ticket vending machines we only have one and we've only had one for quite a while at the burnsville transit station now there will be ticket vending machines at all of mvta transit stops which southwest was very interested in doing the same thing so we did some collaboration with them and they're going to reach out and follow a similar path but luther paved the road for for the other ones to be able to take advantage of this opportunity to get these ticket vending machines installed uh just something that that transit was doing for all of their transit stations but we weren't getting as suburban transit providers but we now are getting the other thing is uh we had a discussion about ev charging stations mbta it was actively interested in pursuing um a different or a couple different models for putting in uh ev charging stations so i said ironically we had just talked about this with a presentation from city council with another partner and i gave uh luther the city the carbon solutions contact and information and passed along our background materials and for them to pursue discussions with them as well because obviously ev charging stations at transit garages make sense because their car is going to likely be sitting there for a while so plugging it in so it's fully charged when i get back and i mentioned the new board um tab i gave that update because we had our work session late in march our next tab meetings in a couple weeks nlc tis advanced air mobility and the mndot nasa air advance ceremony have not met since we last talked there's been two meetings cancelled by the mndot nasa group work group they were just really at the tail end of of all of these four-hour block work sessions developing the governance and so i think they're churning through all that and i expect that we'll have a meeting at some point in the near future actually the nlc tas aam meeting which it goes by different name but it's all the same um in 2022 they um rerouted that their their essentially their advanced air mobility and drone uh subcommittee and it's uh they came up with three new the tis committee uh came up with three new subcommittees and intergovernment intergovernmental communications was uh was one that i signed up for and uh brittany our liaison from nlc said she would explain how they're going to integrate the uh the am into the work that we're doing but we just had our first meeting with introductions of all the the members and we had a lot of new members a few more members from the state of minnesota uh at one point there weren't very many of us i think i was the only one at some point but now there's four maybe or five members from minnesota it's great to see other uh folks from other cities join that particular committee and then on this the festival i i think we did you give a pretty robust update the last meeting i remember providing i wasn't here though i think you did you gave you gave a very very okay that comes from zoom oh you're on zoom that's right yeah you differ you gave a pretty comprehensive yeah we could skip fire monsters i just i just uh would remind everybody in the audience because we have thousands of people tuning in uh that the uh the new fire monster burnsville firemaster.org website is is up and live there's a lot of community festival and fire mustard it is the burnsville festival and foreign the old url we can only build rome in you know a few days that will that will evolve and that will change in the future right after this year's event we will be changing our url but the burnsville festival is is the uh the new brand uh fire muster is always going to be a part of it because we're always going to have fire trucks uh and the the fire the the really the fire muster will really associate to the fire truck display and all of the fire safety and our fire department all that kind of stuff but the burnsville festival is really the umbrella that encompasses everything with the carnival the music the beer our international stage you know et cetera so really excited about our our shuttle service um i really think uh we're gonna we're gonna market that very heavily because uh parking is a major problem uh mobility uh folks who have mobility challenges parking in let's say they get a spot at the church so now they have to walk from 130th and nicolette down nicolet and then all the way down civic center to the other well about halfway down to get to the festival grounds to finally get to where the music and the movie or the food and the and the and the beverages are and the merchandise and the carnival and everything um they can pull their car into the burnsville transit station walk a short distance get on a wheelchair accessible bus every one of them most of them are going to be 40 footers and they'll be driven to the festival grounds and dropped off right in front of the ice center right smack in the middle of where the food the music and the beverages are uh so it's gonna be fabulous access from nicolette so the the the bus will go down to one thirty fourth oh and one from the back side from the back side right and then come in the ice center loop yeah drop it off and then pick up others so they are not going to be in the front where there's a lot of activity and oh congestion it'll it'll take some pressure off the nikola civic center intersection which is always a challenge and uh it'll also allow that's a good route it's away from all yes it'll be safer and uh for vendors vendors can come in that back way as well and drop their stuff off and leave and they'll stay out of the congested nicolet and civic center which we really want people to stay away from that there's still a lot of people walk in that way yeah yeah that's the pedestal that's the big main sidewalk entrance yeah but we don't want a lot of uh truck and vendor and car traffic so for um you know those with mobility challenges uh folks in wheelchairs walkers scooters or just you know kane they don't have to really walk hardly at all just get out of their car and get on a bus and be dropped off right in the middle of where everything is so a big big improvement on that so i think that's worth announcing okay we'll still have golf carts at the ready if somebody's going up like yes they do okay um our burnsville community foundation we're meeting on thursday and we're doing a strategic plan as we look forward and really understand you know do we have this right mission what's the vision for the future for the burnsville community community foundation so i'll have more to report after that that meeting and the international festival is going well doing good with uh with um fundraising because we need to get all of that done and all of the people with the different aspects from the cultural to the entertainment to the children's activities and all of that so everybody's working hard and that'll will have more to report okay and the other meetings are all that are on my list that are they're all quarterly we haven't met mlc hasn't met um metro cities their policy meeting is coming up and that's going to be virtual so anyway that's all i have greg do you have anything i don't have anything mayor council okay erica anything from city clerk's side i do not okay with that we stand adjourned by acclimation thank you very much and it's the first time in a long time that we're a journey after two hours seven thirty almost could say under two hours you