Thanksgiving, which was really nice to just drive about 3 minutes and be somewhere. >> He's laughing. So, we Brent just I had not had the chance to have a physical copy of this yet. Um, I read it online, but a friend of mine, her she's a dual or her mom is a Dwalter and so we got talking about the history of Carver and all of this stuff and we pulled this book up because she was like, "Oh, I have a history of Carver. You need to read it." And I was like, "Was it this one that I already read online?" and she's like, "No, it's much shorter." >> So, >> the first one, >> probably the first the Lucy Harley one. Um, but we started going through the index of people and it was hilarious. She was like, "Oh, so and so and so and so and so and so." And it turns out that Barb Swanson was her Girl Scout triple leader. >> Oh, funny. That is That's hilarious. >> Barb was my sponsor when I joined the Lions. So >> Oh, was she? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Daryl. >> Hi. Daryl who has never not lived on Fourth Street. >> Daryl, >> even when he didn't live in town, the farm was on fourth street. >> So he is his entire life, he has never not lived on Fourth Street. >> Go Mark. >> I did have to go down on the Sunday before Thanksgiving to help my sister make the turn. Oh, did you find I just my fingers real quick? >> Our new puppy, you know, is for snow, right? >> So fun. So, zooming around, but I had haven't had like a short coated dog ever. They're always longcoated. So then the other night when it started to get a little bit deeper and a little bit colder out, he like literally like stepped into it and then he was like, "Yeah, I don't think so. I'm just going to go here." >> All right, it is 5:30. I will call this work session for Monday, December 1st to order. Um, first we have the mobile app review is good. I'm excited about this. >> Same. I'm also excited about this. and technology is working for me. So my careful careful shopping I am so excited now um as part of the strategic initiative u communications with the uh residents and citizens of Carver is a priority and um one of the uh tasks was to research a mobile app. After uh quite a bit of deep diving, I came across this Info Grove company, um it was really kind of tricky to find a mobile app that was kind of what we're looking for as to po as opposed to like a cclick fix or what they in the industry also call a 311 mobile app. So Brent and I sat in on a demonstration of this and um felt very good about the um offerings that they had and how easily it'll mirror with our website. So the company is called 14 Oranges and it's a Canadian software company that focuses on mobile and web application development. Uh the product is the infogrove. It's a mobile first community engagement product. And um they have web CMS which is content management system and then they create these native mobile apps. And a native mobile app I had to get clarification on that is it's an app that's actually created for Android and iOS and it's installed directly onto the user's phone. >> People have Androids. Um, yeah. >> Sure do. >> We're a house divided. So, uh, so Infogrove, um, I'll go into a little bit more detail, but they have modules that are kind of like building blocks, so you can kind of pick and choose which ones work for you. You can have them create custom modules for you, and then there's many thirdparty integrations as well. Uh so some of the features is customization. Um and with that would be like making it look like Carver. Um so including our colors and our logo and things like that is um what that means. And then um the next one down is high quality user experience. Um so it's native technologies like I touched on. Uh they make sure that they're ADA compliant, things like that. uh rapid deployment is something that they talk about and um I'll get into this again in another slide but it's about six week process from start to finish um and then there's multiple layouts and languages that can be incorporated it's easily managed on the back end and then there's new module mod modules and features that come out >> I have a question and I don't know who Dave I don't know so there are there new um accessibility standards for online that are coming in the state of Minnesota in 2026 that are required. Um I know for the U of M where I work we have >> we have to do some special things coming up in 2026. So the only reason I'm asking is if is a Canadian company are we making sure that if there is something in Minnesota that is coming for 2026 for compliance on websites and things like that that we that they're able to match that. So our really this I picture like it drives off of our website and our website is from Civic Plus and they're very focused on the ADA compliance. So it's kind of like an overlay, okay, >> to the website. So it a lot of times directs people to the website. It's a good question I could ask because >> just check on that. I thought that was it was like a state mandate. Maybe it's just a U of M thing, but for some reason I was thinking it was bigger than that. So just I can also check too to see if >> I think there's something coming but I think for cities of our size we have a little bit longer than 2026. >> Okay. Okay. >> On our website is ADA. >> Okay. >> Okay. I just like I said I thought if there was something new coming along and making that if it's a Canadian company that we can make sure that those are all married together. >> Right. >> So these are some samples. I have al all of these downloaded onto my phone. um you can go to these cities so I can tell you what's happening in Bari Indiana and um but just some examples of what it could look like on someone's phone when they actually open the app. So I envision like the city of Carver logo and um as you can see there's different options for like you know the big question mark or calendar or a to-do list etc. So, so they put together a concept demonstration which was really cool in my opinion. It kind of helped us me see it. I I do much better when I can actually see things in action. So, I've highlighted um here it shows Info Grove. Um it would show City of Carver when we actually if we actually move forward with this company. Um and then when you click on it, this is what it shows. Um, Sane is the person that demonstrated it for us and he kind of looked at our website and identified might what might be our prime areas that we would want to include. So, he just used these as samples, but as you can see like the city council page has six different updates since I had last opened it. There were two meetings and events. There's a direct link to our online payments, our website, report a concern, etc. So, if we dig just a little bit deeper into that. >> Sorry, I missed maybe what you said there. So, does the app then say Infog or we can it say city of Carver? >> There's two different options. So, I'll get into the pricing a little bit um for a little bit more. It can say City of Carver with our logo. Okay. >> Which if you look at these options here, these um cities and organizations chose to go with the more specific. So, yes, we can have it customized and um the feedback I received is that our website's in really good spot and they can take a lot of the information from there. So the development side wouldn't be much for them to take. The images are in good good format and things like that. So So if we click on the city council page, you can click on um members city council agenda guides, rundowns, a direct link to watch the meetings, our strategic action plan. So, we have the ability to drive all of this, but again, Sane just took it from the um what he thought might be important to us. And it was easily laid out on the website to direct this into a demonstration. >> And that's an example. We could add like report a concern and kind of whatever we wanted to those little circular icons. >> Yes. And so the next I'll go into that. Here's meetings and events. So, here's a format for that. And then I clicked on, you know, what did it fall? Yard and garden organic waste event. So when you click on it, it gives you a Google map and details about the event. Um online payments is an example there. And then report a concern. Um they have that with the infogrove um logo on there just because it was a concept demonstration, but we could have that into the city of Carver. So he could do the Yep. Good question. Uh so either they can do it directly to our website, link it directly to our website so it's all entered on there or they can build this interface in between and then to our website as well. And I just highlighted a couple of the options out there. So there is a base setup fee and that's a one-time setup fee. So the fully branded would include the city of Carver logo and that's $7,900. Um, if we off to the right, it shows a co-branded, which is $6,200. Um, but the Infogrove logo is what would be on the actual app, not the City of Carver logo when you go into the app itself. >> Are those numbers annual? >> Just a one time. >> Oh, okay. >> Yep. And then you have an annual subscription fee. Uh, so there's three different levels. I think the $2,195 a year would be the best for us. Um we can definitely switch between the different options from year to year as well. Um he said some people start at gold and then move down or or you know there's some adjustments that can be made. But at the silver level module there's some questionnaires that can be used for campaigns, voting surveys, polls if we wanted. Um and then they also have some enhanced forms that we could use. And then the biggest thing is the synchronization. So it's like um things with the calendar and contents and business directory. I don't I think once you know if we move forward I'll have a little bit better understanding what their modules all I the syncing and things like that. So from the concept level it sounds great and then you know if you ask me to explain the nitty-gritty details I might struggle a little on that. But >> does this sync directly with the website? So the staff as they enter things on the website would not have to also update the app. Correct. >> Okay. >> Correct. >> Are the four examples that you used earlier, Mountain View County, The Clerk, Fulton Cares, are those all silver or those at silver level? >> They're the fully branded option. I'm not sure. It's a really good question. What their subscription level is. Um, I think really the annual subscription like like once it's built then the annual subscription has just a little bit maybe more module features based on that level like how many you could have many modules and then the syncing like you mentioned. >> Yeah, that's what we just we just put together an app for the for guardian angels like a year ago. So, we've been through all of this app development and and the app we went with had the higher the tier you went up, the more modules you could put on your homepage, the more like links you could have on your homepage. >> And so, it's a balance between, you know, how clickable do you want it to be versus how much are you willing to pay for that? And it doesn't it didn't it didn't and I don't know about infograph, but it didn't. You have a silver package, so you can't have this module. It's you. Here's our hund our 100 modules to pick from. Silver package means you could pick five of them. >> But I don't know if that's how infograph works, but that's how the app we went with for guardian angels worked. So >> is that like an Everbridge app or do you know the name of that? >> Uh Parisoft. So applicable to not applicable to city, >> but I I presume that a lot of these companies that are doing app development for a website have very similar pricing models would be my assumption. >> So that in Everbridge was my next question. So because the county for Everbridge like if there's a snowstorm it, you know, it comes across my phone for an alert. Do we have a capability to send alerts >> um through this >> uh with the silver module? Yes, >> with the silver. >> I saw push notifications on one of their features that you had correct earlier. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Um probably have it here in my folder somewhere, but push notifications and RSS feeds. I can double check on that if it's in the module or where it comes from. >> Okay, that one seems important to me. Um because if there is something then everyone who has that app can get it and they then we stop hearing well so I'm supposed to look on Facebook for updates you know that kind of stuff. So um this puts a little bit in their own hand then to pay attention. I personally like ever bridge that it comes through right there's a snowstorm coming or here's the weather alert or this or that. So I think that's a feature I want to make sure that we get whatever we decide. Uh so we um the funding for this would be in the 2026 budget via the enterprise funds if you decide to move forward with that. And then one other option I checked into based on feedback received is chat bots. Um I just did Google searches on this and then I also talked with infogrove and they are familiar and they do integrate that into the app as well. and uh just did some pricing and came up with chatbot.com otherwise com is another one that is used that um infogrove has we would manage it they would help us get the link into it but otherwise it's something we would totally manage on our own so as you can see there's different pricing for that so >> okay >> chat about it >> I think initially unless I can persuade otherwise. So if you go on and you're getting AI bot kind of responses back, right? I don't think that's going to make our residents happy and the expectation is I'm not chatting and someone's going to get me my answers and I feel like that just starts going you just end up going down a rabbit hole of like another question and another question and you never really or not often get to where you need to be. So, I've nearly struggled to chat about been there. I don't think anybody is ever like, you know, I had a really great experience with that. Like, I was trying to discontin a service at my home last night and it was the same like cyclical where I wanted to like arc my laptop. So, I don't >> I don't It's very inexpensive, but I don't think it's worth like the hassle of frustration for our residents. I don't think it's going to be as useful to our residents as everything else is. I think >> I think just a contact us page would be much more helpful, right? >> Because then you get the real person telling you the real answers probably like the next morning, right? So, and if it's an emergency, you use something else anyways besides >> the chatbot. You're not going to be like, "Well, my house is on fire. What do I do >> in the chatbot?" I think the only good chatbot experience that I had is that it would basically walk you through the contact us form for your specific issue and then they contacted you during business hours. So I had my kids broke the lid on the toilet and I needed to buy >> another story. I needed to buy a new lid for the toilet which is much more difficult than you would think it would be. And I found a website and I was looking at it at like 8:00 at night and I'm they're like, "Do you you know a chatbot? I don't know which one to get." And they said, "Okay, well it it just said great. What's your contact information? Can you send us a picture of the top and bottom of it? We'll get back to you." >> Yeah. >> When and that was like the one good experience I've had with an automated >> But that's really for us that's about like the online but it's still the form contact form. >> Exactly. I think we'd be better served by highlighting the report of concern. something like that and trying to funnel folks through there. I think that's accurate. >> And there is a an update related to this. O met with this group that I met at the ICMA conference uh in Tampa called reps and they do a very uh effective and by cost and by level of effort um video they have a video tool so you can record it as like a built-in teleprompter like 60-second videos or 30 second videos to give updates and and that was one of our strategic initiatives to try to introduce video And what they they have a and I'll have more information on this later for you, but they use AI in a different way than the chatbot is it's almost like a resource tool to help you navigate like the website. So if you ask, you know, um a question about plowing snow, you know, it would kind of help you reference the snowplow policy and if the mayor and Andrew did a video on snow removal, that would pop up. And then there's a button for like report a concern and then contact staff. So it's a far more I would say like ground level tool than >> fancy Google. >> Yeah. Chatbot. So um we're kind of kind of researching that on kind of the back end and if we think it works uh we might bring something to you in 2026. But we think it could be a helpful tool for more so the video side um for the comprehensive plan like just going through the experience people uh reading forms and flyers are probably harder to kind of consume than a 30 second or a minute video on the comp plan and it just so happens it has like an AI search feature on it. So um I would say more to come and um the chat a lot pricing with just something they had in before. So, >> so Brett, I have a um like when you come back with that information, I would be curious other cities that use it and people who have an app like what percentage of people actually watch their videos? You know what I mean? Like what percentage of people have 33% or >> if it's something else? >> They have they keep data on this. >> Okay. >> Or on the videos. I would um not to like upset the apple cart. This is just editorial, but I like comparing these like side by side. I think there's actually more value in like the tool that we just use than um the app. Like when I look at the app, the app is a conduit to your to the website. There isn't anything on this app that you can't do on the website. Um and so it's just a matter of where you want to invest money and how much you want to engage. And I think multiple things can be true. You can engage in a bunch of different ways for a bunch of different users. So, um, but I, um, I am excited to have like do a presentation on this rep program because I think, um, you with my experience engaging with residents, it's more of what I hear them wanting to say cuz or wanting to consume because even like the agenda guides, I mean, we can it's just I think it's just it's harder to consume. written than it is video. >> I the reason >> and there's a lot of production value and cost in that and they I guess Chan Hass is looking at the same software. >> Um and I I feel a little bit uh out of place talking about something that I've given you zero background on. I think it's important Yeah. I think it's important to the context of this conversation. >> Yeah. >> I just if it's 25,000 people, you know, because obviously cities are different sizes. So that's why I'm just looking for like percentage numbers like because what I don't want though is if if we have this and then we find out that 1% of the people who have the app are using it. Like is that a good use of our time to make videos that no one's watching? So I'd be interested to see other users, how much how much folks are actually using that part of it, >> right? And then if like if that's your like the standard like how many people would the council need to see sign up for this app to have that be successful? >> Yeah, I have no idea. So >> this is the first I've heard. I couldn't tell you. >> No, I was talking about like this app. If you had 20 people sign up for the app in 2026 for this app, the infog would you see that as a success or like what's the number? >> And I'm not asking you to come up with the answer. I just >> I don't have it. I just saying like the same uh theory would hold true on the app or this video piece is how many people are actually >> using it, >> right? I think if we have 2% though, we know that maybe it's not very effective. If you're hovering at a, you know, a mid-range number, then yeah, I think it is. So, the rep stuff was cool. I was I said it on the demo this afternoon and um it's not only videos, it's also like pulling information from the website. So, like if you're in line at Target and you don't want to watch a video, it can also work. Uh, but it was really cool and I there's a city in Kansas that maybe we can remember and send out to the group. >> Andover, Kansas. So, it's just confusing. >> It's just a little Minneapolis and Kansas. There's also just a little widget on the corner where you can plug in your question like I have concerns, you know, like how do I pick water? >> I mean, I'm interested to speak. >> But the question that you brought up, I literally have it written down here for the app. I how are we going to measure success? And I think that that's something that we need to figure out. If we have 200 people signed up for it and using it actively, which I assume they can get us metrics for if we want this path, >> like is that success? out of what 2,000 homes, you know, if we have that small of a percentage, like not everybody's going to have it on their phone. Not everybody has a phone. God only knows how many apps I have on my phone that I don't use. You know, like it would take a while and I think it would take a number of years before we can determine success on that. But I think that that's something that probably the help of this company that we're going to have to figure out like what is realistic and how do we determine success. It's also going to be something that's potentially kind of hard to put the genie back in the lamp, if you will, because even if we only have 200 active and engaged users that use that app, it's going to be hard to say, "Sorry, that wasn't enough and we got to we're not going to make that investment anymore. You'll have to just go to the website." Um, do you um are there any cities in Minnesota that use this? >> No. >> Okay. Um, I think you answered all the rest of my questions. Any other questions? >> I Yeah, I guess I hadn't thought of it that way. Like it doesn't go away, right? Once we choose to do this, it's basically forever until some other random technology wipes out the apps on our phones. We use something else, right? >> It's going to be hard to go away, >> right? But I mean, technology changes 10 years from now. might be like remember when we used to use apps um so >> yeah dot matrix um so I think yeah I think you're right and saying that like we need to realize that this is we are like committing to this now until something else a decade from now comes along and replaces it but um I think that the way of the world right now this we we have to we need to um and whatever that level that looks like I'm happier to start small right and and then if it for some it's booming, then of course we can always up it. But I think I think we have to just commit to doing the app in perpetuity until something else >> Yeah. takes over. >> Mhm. >> Um so when we were looking at apps for the church, we found that engagement has gone up with the website because we have it's similarly tied. Um push notifications are great. people love that. Um I think it would be even more important with the city than with the church. I mean for the church it's mostly like hey so and so's funeral is on Friday and um you know you can sign up by like you know oh you're involved in these three groups. Well now these three groups can send you push notifications. But um what we found really interestingly is that we were actually pulling a very different demographic with the app than we were with the website. So with the website, with churches, websites are almost primarily almost always just used to figure out service times. Like people just Google figure out when your services. We're actually getting engagement on the app. Um and we're actually getting a lot with um older generations. So um like 55 plus is really um engaging a lot with the app. It's a lot easier for them, we've found, to navigate the website via the like the modules on the app than it is to try and hunt through a website. Um, so that's been it's been really positive. So I think it and it serves, you know, my generation, my parents generation, we kind of all expect apps at this point. So it's been it's been good for the church. Um, what other platforms did you guys look at? Just curious, >> there were some different modules like from our website. Um I'd looked into the Everbridge. I don't recall why that wasn't as strong of a a website. Um Brent had connected with someone. >> Yeah, there um there aren't a lot of as many cities as you would think that use >> use apps. >> Oh, look at us leading the way here. Yeah, we did find uh somebody who out of like Georgia just by kind of research and we connected with them. Uh the issue that we had and they were more affordable. Um the issue is is just one person and they did >> two or three cities down in Georgia. And so our concern was if that person decides not to keep doing this as their kind of side hustle, then we have no one to maintain this. We're in for growth at least as a demonstration uh throughout. Um, we really kind of leaned in and where it's kind of a frustrating scenario with Senate Plus, our website vendor, but they don't have a tool that you're looking for. They have the Cclick fix. It's more of that transactional I see a concern and it's not a uh I mean I think when we were talking about it thinking about it it was the push notifications that was like that was the primary tool of like you know there's uh seal coding on Sixth Street today and you can you know push that out. Um and then just kind of that the ease of use of the things that are on there. But the the push notification uh is was the major piece. But um I think we talked to a total of maybe four or five and like two of them within like 30 seconds you knew that they didn't weren't going to have the platform to do this. It was just like >> they were trying to sell you what they had as what we asked for. Yeah. >> Um, so >> okay. Um, so my big things are push notifications I think is going to be our biggest functionality with this. That's the thing. Um, and then the second thing is I want to make sure that whatever we do, whatever we choose, it syncs with the website so that the staff only has to do one entry. >> That's my other big thing. So >> So who staff is going to be managing this? premise, you'll be you'll be the you'll be the face behind the app. So, you'll be putting out the notifications and that kind of stuff when it comes up, >> correct? Okay. Yeah. And it's really not much different than putting like a news flashash on the website and stuff. So, yeah, the push notifications might be an extra step, but >> this like if I went into the infog app right now, like it would be updated with the council rundowns, the agenda guides, it does its own thing. It's pretty >> minimal. this app is as far as interactions. So, we add something to the website for an event and it's just on there so it syncs it. >> That's great. >> I felt good about this one. A lot of the other ones felt like it was like managing multiple things and you know, we've got social media and the website and you know what we send out for council packets and things like that, but this one felt like it's pretty seamless. >> There's two other things. So, just to clarify that this is proposed in the 26 budget, but it's co-unded general fund and enterprise funds. And then two, you know, upon adoption of the budget, you know, we're talking about roughly like in that neighborhood of 15,000. So this wouldn't go to the council. So if you support it, we would move forward in January. So we're trying to check in like, do you want to move forward with this pending the budget adoption or do you want to think about it? Do you want to delay till middle of the year? Kind of where where's your where's your comfort level? How do you want to see this executed? >> I'm okay with it. Kayla, what you said about it kind of it turning into more of a tool for making the website easier to navigate resonated with me? Do I think we need an app? It's probably not in the top, you know, 10 of my list of what the city needs. But I think that like looking at it through that lens, there's a huge benefit to that because I think all of us sitting around the table here can probably navigate the website better than most. But like, can Zach find what he needs? >> Maybe, maybe not. >> Without saying, Courtney, >> where is it? >> We don't live in everyone's house, so we can't tell them where it is, >> right? I used to work at admissions at a university and the joke was always that the ven diagram of what you want on a university web page and front page and what is actually on a university front page and the intersection is just the name of the university like that I feel like that is city >> and I think our website is great. It is great and like especially remembering the old WordPress site but I just wonder if it's just my familiarity with it that makes it easy for me to navigate. They did say our website is great. >> Oh, good. >> I believe everything. >> Was that the sales guy, though? >> Okay. Does anybody feel like No, let's not do this right now. >> Okay. You go. >> Good. Great. >> All right. Do we need to talk about our Are we mean are we're going silver here? And we're going to go with because we've got different pricing up here. So, we've got enhanced fully branded, we have co-branded, we have fully branded. >> We're going to I guess our recommendation is to do the fully branded car disc carver and then the silver. So, >> okay. >> And you said I'm sorry, that top one is just the onetime fee, right? >> Correct. >> Okay. Okay. >> And we can if we're finding we're not using all of the options, we can downgrade the following year to the >> broad. So, the annual cost just after the one time is like $2,200. >> Correct. And then there is um just a little bit of pricing >> um through the >> just to have it listed on the app. >> I have a slide for that, but you know the app and like Google is like a onetime fee. Y >> it's $100 a year for Apple. >> Okay. And then just confirming it's a free app. >> Correct. >> Okay. Correct. >> Great. >> All right. Maybe you can take some of those apps off your phone now. >> Thank you, Brenda. >> Thanks, Brenda. >> Thank you all. Um, all right. Private well or discussions. >> Need that chunked all the way down here. All right, good evening everyone. Thank you. Um, so last time we talked about the wel ordinance was actually in July. Feels like it was April, but it was in July apparently when I last looked at our notes. Um, I just want to get this in front of you again. Um, after the conversation last time, it was just kind of, you know, um, you know, we've learned some new things, uh, since that conversation and now we kind of pulled other examples from other cities on kind of how they're handling this issue. So, kind of the purpose of this ordinance um, is to protect groundwater quantity and quality long term. Um, another purpose is reducing the risk of our wells interfering with private wells, which we had an issue with this summer. Um, and then the third is just reduce potential of crosscontamination. And so that would be if someone has a private well, hooks it up to their house, and that house is still hooked up to our system, there's a potential of that contamination of our system, which we don't want. Um, so if you've never looked at kind of cone of depression type drawdowns for municipal wells or any well really, you know, we're pumping large quantities of water and usually we're deeper in a deeper aquifer than some of these uh other wells in the area. That doesn't mean if we're in a deeper aquifer doesn't mean that the aquifer above is not connected to the aquifer below um through a fracture or fault or anything like that. So the more we pump that water gets drawn down in the area. So if their pump is outside of that cone of depression where we pump that water down, their wa their well runs dry and we're on the hook to fix it. And that is what happened this summer. And fortunately in that case, uh we were able to hook that gentleman up to city water since it ran right in front of his house. Um some other times we won't be so lucky on that. >> Andrew, would you mind just kind of digging into that detail like where it was? >> Yeah, so it was well six was one of our newest wells. Um and that was one of the wells that we were going through a permitting process through the Minnesota DNR that took I don't know a year and a half or so. Um, and through that permitting process, the DNR actually identified, I think, five or six wells within the area that had potential for us to draw them down and interfere with their private wells. Well, this one wasn't one of those wells. For whatever reason, it wasn't documented on the DNR sort of Department of Health's website of where these wells exist. But he had a well, his well stopped working after we pumped well six for like a month straight. Um because that was one of the only wells that we had in operation this summer. >> Where's Well six at? >> Well six is I want to say >> by Tamarak. >> Yeah, Tamarak. Is that is that the road or is >> Meridian Fields? >> Yeah. Is that Meridian curve that goes around >> the flag house? >> I was going to say that sounds like the flag house. But that I mean that was like a few thousand feet away from our well. So that's you know how far that draw down can occur. So just keep that in mind. It doesn't have to be directly next to that house or that well to actually cause an interference. And in the eyes of the DNR when it's the large uh quantity producer that's causing the problem it's their fault. There's really not much discussion all the time. >> I know that that's true of pre-existing wells, does that apply also if new wells, new private wells are >> not all the time. It probably depends what they're for. >> Okay. >> If it's providing domestic water for a household, there prioritizes it. That's significant from the emphasis of if you are a large user and you cause that domestic well to fail or be drawn down to the point where it can't provide water to a household, they're going to say always you got to make it work. You've got to pay for either you you dig their well deeper. In this case, it was nice. We had really close access to city water. We can just connect and the property owner was very amanable to that. But some property owners would say just dig my well deeper, fix it. Um I don't want to be hooked up to city water. >> That's even if the city well predates the private. >> It can be. Yeah. Okay. Right. And and um keep in mind that obviously as we we are a municipality that provides treated water. Um there aren't going to be a lot of domestic um wells providing household water for homes in Carver. Now there are outliers, right? Yeah. Um, that's just the case because it's normal as cities grow for areas that are in the township and they get annexed and historically been unwalted that those to be out there, but that this was kind of a unique circumstance where sort of all the stars aligned and this guy didn't have water. >> I was just curious, we're going over the well ordinance and it's, you know, what are all the possibilities and it's like what if we allow just allow well drilling, you know, what does that look like? And so I was just curious and that's very important information to have. >> So if we want to look at, you know, some of the surrounding cities, um, it's really hard to go through these ordinances and try to get apples to apples, but I try my best. Um, you know, Laconia, the private wells may be may be maintained, but no cross connection. If the well fails, no well, new well can be drilled. Well must be sealed. Um you know Chaza, no new private wells to better regulate the withdrawal of water from the metro area aquifers. Um existing wells may continue for irrigation purposes only. Um Jordan actually has like a cross connection inspection annually which would be a lot of heavy lifting as well. Um, Madina has no private wells where the city water supply is available except irrigation wells installed to supplement storm water ponds and private water supply wells used solely as a part of a heating and cooling system. Um, Chan, no new private wells upon failure connection to municip municipal system shall be required. Um so that's kind of the similar theme. Corkran all new properties must be connected to the city services. Existing properties are mandated to connect after you know 10 years of availability. So that's kind of a common theme in some of the growing cities. Once that water pipe gets to a certain distance of that property that's with now within the city um they have a certain time to connect. Um, Corkran is probably a little different than city of Carver where Corkran, you know, has a lot of like township characteristics, but it's one city. Like there's no township anymore. Like we have the township around us. Corporate is all one city. Um, you know, some considerations to think of in our ordinance. It references the drink and water supply management area the disma. So in there it states that no well for irrigation or domestic should be drilled within the dwisma. The dwisma is not like a hard and fast line. It can change. Um, specifically our well one is a Mount Simon Formation well which is the deepest aquifer that is generally available in the metro area. Now, if well one were to fail, it'd be very unlikely that the DNR would allow us to drill another well in that aquifer because that aquifer is kind of like in a protected status because the DNR doesn't want municipalities drilling past usable water basically to get down to the oldest water. So typically the deeper the well, the deeper the aquifer, the older the water, the more clean it is. Um the recharge rates take longer. Um so things of of that nature. But you know, if well one were to fail, it'd be very unlikely that we would get permitted for another Mount Simon well, which would drastically change the deisma because that recharge area would get bigger because it's not as deep. So um let's see and this is our the current well ordinance 48-41 section B. So except for irrigation wells, the drilling of new wells shall not be for shall not be permitted for existing dwellings which can be serviced from municipal water system. Irrigation wells may be drilled after securing a permit from the city which we do not have a permitting process for wells currently. Um and shall not be drilled on property located within the doisma as specified in our wellhead protection plan. Um and it notes that it is amended from time to time um and upon failure of private water supply connections in municipal system shall be required. So it doesn't really talk to if something you know if that I guess it does sorry I was going down a weird path in my mind. It does kind of talk about if there's a failure then you have to connect but it doesn't really specify if it's a failure of irrigation well do you have to connect or you can just drill another irrigation well >> the you talked about the disma for well one is there a disma for the other wells as well >> so well one and well three have they share a disma because they're in close >> proximity >> approximation that's what that green line is >> okay Um so well two has its own disma. Well four um where is well four? Well four is up by the water tower >> and then >> five and six have their own doisma because those were the new ones. >> So what are you looking for from us? I mean thank you for overviewing this and I didn't wasn't aware of a disma. So, I've learned something today. I'm going to I'm going to bed, you know, smarter than I woke up this morning. >> So, I guess this all kind of started this summer when someone asked to drill a new irrigation well. They had a existing well >> and I don't know if it didn't work anymore or what the status of that well was, but they wanted to drill a new well. So, that's the question is reading through our ordinance, is it allowed? Right now it kind of is. >> Mhm. >> But kind of isn't because we don't really know what the permitting process is. >> So it is allowed but we don't technically have a permit process in place because it says except for irrigation laws. >> And I would say like from a staff perspective we we think it's the council should consider not permitting them at all. uh just because of the nature of how the disma can change um and just um coordination with residents and the possible adverse impacts it could have to our own well. So >> you're talking about drilling new ones, >> correct? >> Okay. Because as someone who has an irrigation well in my yard, I have zero idea when it went in. I'm assuming the house was probably back in the day, right? Um I'm I mean I I'm not going to go for telling people that they have to cap irrigation wells. The city already went through. >> We're not asking that, >> right? Um I'm just prefacing what the rest of it was at. So >> So I'm not about Yeah. So I'm not I'm not about telling that to people because as a city, we've already went through and had people say, "Hey, you either have to get on the city and you can keep it for this." Um, and being that it's irrigation, so if it does go dry, you know, it's not that we're feeding someone's home. So, we are not on the hook for anything that happens with an irrigation well. Correct. No matter what happens, >> Dave. >> So, let's say my well, my irrigation well goes dry. >> Yeah. Those aren't domestic. I mean, those are those are different than what the DNR considers domestic wells. Those are wells that provide the soil water source to a domestic home. >> Um, so there would be no reason for it. I mean, they they wouldn't require the city to go out and fix someone's irrigation well, right? In other words, >> but there I mean, hypothetically, I couldn't come and say, "My irrigation well is dry." City, what if you you've bled my well dry now? So, >> well, you could do that. >> Well, I could, but the DNR is not going to recognize that the city is on the hook for it, right? So if that would happen that would just be >> and that's the practically that's the concern is that the DNR wouldn't get involved but what other unintended consequences of a a resident I don't know how much a well cost to to dig couple thousand. >> Yeah probably 10 to 15. So that someone spends 10 to 15,000 on a well and they're convinced that we've drawn down the water. So now their well is like do you want to what benefit is the city getting from that creating that experience? And again we're we're asking the question >> um we think uh obviously we allow it now and we can create a permitting system. It hasn't come up obviously a lot um but we do think the conversation is worth having. So if they do an irrigation well, do they have to get a DNR permit for that as well? >> So they like the >> it's only if they pump like a crazy amount of water, a million gallons a year or 10,000 gallons a day. >> Oh my gosh. Okay. >> But they still need, >> you know, the the well driller needs to be licensed, >> right? >> And I think they pull like a permit from the DNR. It's not like an appropriations permit like what we have because we pump in high quantities. Um, and I think, you know, there's there's the quantity of water, but there's also the quality of water. And the more holes we poke into the aquifers, the more potential there is for contamination because those are direct conduits for pollution. If someone doesn't know what they're doing or God forbid. Well, God forbid you have a well at your house that hasn't been used in 20 years. You don't know what it is. It's just a hole in the ground and you start dumping chemicals down it because that's happened in the past. Then that can has potential to contaminate everybody's drinking water. And the more holes there are in that aquifer, the more potential there is for that. >> Okay. I've never heard of such a thing. I don't even know how we get water down or chemicals down. But besides the fact with an irrigation well, um, for me looking at it, the likelihood of this plethora of residents who are going to come in looking to put in an irrigation well is very low. Um, well drillers are licensed. They have to know what they're doing. Anything can go wrong. Any a street project can go wrong. anything I mean the laws of nature anything can happen you know there's a percentage that can go wrong I tend to air on the side of a little less government oversight if we are able um I think that the well ordinance obviously it says except for this we've got some good writing in here the permitting you know it obviously that at some point maybe we did but that's fallen off um I think there's a way to write in here that the city is not liable if your well goes dry. If you choose to put in an irrigation well for $15,000, you are taking on the sole responsibility that you are going to have water in it. And if it is dry, then the city's ex is also exempt from being on the hook for it. Um I just to me this is kind of a the likelihood of it. I mean, we've had we had one, right? We had one that happened and it was a domestic well that went into the house. It wasn't for irrigation. I think this is such a small percentage that anyone would even want to drill into have an irrigation well at that cost. I mean, because the cost, if it's already not there, the cost effect ratio of putting in a $15,000 well to water in your yard, it's going to take a lot of years to recoup. So, I I just think we're I think this is a little bit of mountain or molehills here. I think the ordinance can be cleaned up and if if someone wants to put in irrigation, well, go for it. you have to follow our policies. You have to follow whatever other policies are out there. Um, and I just don't think that it's going to be I don't think there's going to be this influx of hundreds of households who are going to want to put in irrigation well. >> I so I agree. Sorry. I that I don't think there's going to be an influx and I think that it's a little cost prohibitive at face value, but just looking with the examples, I'm not really seeing anybody that says it's okay to do an irrigation well. And the language that Andrew's been using, inverse adverse impacts, contamination scares me. I don't think that I want to take that gamble. I don't think that the need is there to warrant this. And if something happens to our water system, I mean, we are a community that has experienced some issues, not contamination, not like super severe, but some sleepless nightcausing water system issues. And knowing that if we have a vehicle, a way of preventing some really bad options, I want to take that. So my I would like to see irrigation wells not being allowed to be drilled. No new wells. My question is would this impact commercial as well if we had a industrial user or if somebody wanted to come in? >> How about city irrigation loans for parks then? >> I don't know that we get to be just for me but not for the >> Yeah. either. >> I Yeah. Well, we we currently just for what it's worth, so um I think this is a good good policy discussion because um you know, to Christiey's point, um what's the harm in allowing it? There's probably not going to be a lot, but there's also policy reasons why, you know, let's say municipal water becomes more and more expensive, and many people start to think, "Oh, well, maybe I can drill a well for cheaper and it'll pay for itself like solar arguably does after a certain amount of years and does our public services team and our city benefit from having more connections or not? Um that's a policy call. Uh but to to answer your question um about the parks and irrigating areas that we don't have, you know, water stub to municipal water. We do allow it to for HOAs that have to water common areas. We have a carveout in our subdivision. I think it's somewhere in our subdivision ordinance that says, you know, if you're an HOA and you have a big um common area like an outlot or a storm water outlot that has grass, I mean, we want to make sure those areas are maintained and and don't necessarily um you know, dry up and look bad. So, the city does allow um wells to supplement storm water ponds much like similar to what Madina allows um for those developers and their HOAs to be able to put in wells for that. So, very kind of narrow reason. Um, and I know the city also uses some wells to do the same thing for our parks because one, we don't have water stuck to our parks and we want to make sure our parks are green and get water during dry times and all that. So, um, there are reasons to allow it in limited circumstances. The question I think really for tonight is does it make sense for individual households to that have municipal water service already? um does it make sense to allow them a way to drill what you know we're talking about here with these irrigation wells in those situations? Um so that's just more food for thought than anything. But um but isn't there like the answer is like you can determine whether where and when you want a lot or a well to be drilled. So you can allow it in parks or not. You can allow it on for HOAs or commercial businesses. I mean you're the policy makers. you decide it will I'll help draft something that reflects your uh opinion on the matter. >> In either way, it'll be a clean up. Some This is going to have to be cleaned up. If you do nothing today, I think staff needs to come up with a way to permit this stuff because when someone came in this summer and asked for an irrigation well, it says you can have one if you get a permit and the city has never issued a permit for that. And I don't know what we ended up doing there or how we handled it or if more requests come in what the process is. But either way, um it's kind of a general like let's look at this policy, determine if it's okay for the council, and if it is, we have to figure out a way to get to implement it. And if it isn't, we can change it. So >> regardless, I'd like to see the language of that last sentence cleaned up so it's clear if that applies to both domestic water and irrigation wells because the way it's written out it's a little >> Yeah. And what you don't see Yeah. What you don't see here is so that's 4841B. What you don't see, >> do we define private well supply as >> what you don't see is 4841 A CDE E FG which talk about I mean generally speaking if if you're if you have um if you own a home and you're within 66 feet of the water system you have to connect to municipal water >> for all the policy reasons that go along with that. That's no different. Most cities require that. >> Yeah. um you know uh but there are different exceptions and different rules and you know my guess is this section 4841 started as you know maybe A and C and then over time it just kind of morphs into its own thing. Every city's ordinances have their own life and they turn into things based on amendments over time. Um it's hard to kind of determine how that all happened, but that whole section sort of dictates the rules around when you have to connect, when you have to >> transition from a private well to a city water supply, um and everything in between. So, um >> I would just say that with and this is not this is apppropo of nothing right now because this is supposed to be a policy discussion, but Aaron has been working really hard to make the city ordinances more readable and user friendly and having a clause like that that is only gains clarity by the by referencing all of the other sections around it is tricky for usability. So, that's that's a legal comment. I agree with you on the white sentence. Yeah, >> I comment. Um >> I do agree we need to update the wording. Um and then I don't have the whole context. So I'll go back and look at the A and CD. Um but it would be helpful to know when it's they're talking about a new well or existing. Um because when I first read this that was confusing but like I said um because I think the thing is new wells are prohibited but existing wells you can use. So just to clarify is it new or existing? >> New wells are prohibited except for irrigation wells. >> That's a second note but just like what is it? Yeah. Is it a new or existing first? Then can we look at those city examples? I have some questions on that Madina. So, I wonder if we do something like they're do did or doing where if you don't have it for heating and cooling that wouldn't be such a high quantity or demand that you might see in a commercial district. And I'm also so curious to know which one you I feel like we're trying to go close to what Chaza has, but maybe a little bit of Chaza and Madina. >> Well, we can do what Carver is. Well, we're going to go close to like the examples of Chesa Madina, but um yes, so I think we should clarify what irrigation is it just to, >> you know, things that grow out of the ground. >> So, I think unlike Madina's case, you know, >> talking about the storm water pond piece, I think is huge because that's going to be a growing sector for people to meet their storm water requirements as they develop properties. are going to have to find ways to reduce phosphorus and reduce sediment and meet abstraction rates. Um, and one of the ways to do that is irrigation. So, if we're already going to have a, you know, have to meet all these requirements and we want our lawns to look nice and green and we already have a pond that's collecting water. Let's use that water, put it back on the grass. But when that pond is dry, you have to supplement it. So, that's kind of the >> Do you like the frustrating as a city we would benefit from that. >> Uh we would because it you know would reduce phosphorous runoff and it would help you know meet TMDL goals and things like that. So it would increase water quality throughout the state and the city. >> I I would add too I think it's good to have all these examples. Um, you're not always comparing apples to apples because what you don't know about Madina is that they don't allow and the only reason I know is cuz I'm your city attorney, but they don't allow um people to irrigate with municipal water at all in the city. So, that's a that's a unique thing that they have just because they're very protective of their um their groundwater and their municipal water system. So, that's one of those cities where every new development you can't have you can't install irrigation if it's going to use municipal water. So, a lot of developments in Madina um just have storm water reuse systems that pull from um the ponds and supplement it with with wells for that whole reason, but and that's a different policy because they're not Carver. They're not located where we are. Their aquifers are different and you know, Andrew can speak to a lot of the um >> Do you know what the heating and cooling system? No, that one actually I wasn't sure what that mean what that has to do with. I didn't look at the ordinance. Um, >> but I'm more familiar with their >> Do they have a water? >> They don't. >> I think sometimes I I know there was a place in Rogers that used a groundwater well to heat and cool their building. So, I don't some geothermal trend that was probably popular in the '9s or something. they do with geothermal thing too. >> But >> so one of my and I brought this up briefly is one of the things is so I don't want us to stop irrigating our parks with the well because we're not drawing on the municipal system that's treated and you know with then we're not dealing with our um our towers. I don't think it's fair to say, well, the city can put in new wells wherever we want them for irrigation, but you, homeowner A, can't, right? We're going to allow ourselves to do it, but you can't do it. So, I have a little bit of a problem with that. Like I said, the number of people who are going to put in an irrigation well are is so low that I think we're picking at probably two people that will ever come across us in, you know, our tenure on council that will maybe want to put that in. I I do think there's really something about government saying we're going to go ahead and drill some new wells for lawn irrigation, but you homeowner who pays your taxes here and lives here cannot do the same. But I think the difference with that is when we put it in, we know what we're doing. We know the location. We get it figured out versus like if I drill a well out, I could put it wherever I want. It could go as deep as I want it, as much as I want to pay, right? There isn't that knowledge of what's going on. >> I want to know that that's 100% fact though because you have to your well driller has to be licensed. >> Um I don't know through the I'm sorry. I was I'm going to hit you guys up real quick. So, do they when you go to do an irrigation well in your yard, I can't remember sorry what you said Andrew, but I know the well driller has to be licensed. Do they have to get some kind of DNR permit period for well? >> I think it's just paperwork. >> It's not really >> Yeah. I mean, the difference too here is that let's keep in mind like the city parks don't necessarily have easy easy access to irrigate a huge field. I mean, these are there this is a lot different than someone wanting to put an irrigation well in on a residential parcel that has municipal water coming into the home, right? Um, so there there's a I don't necessarily think that's a um >> it is my argument and I will go with it because >> well I from a legal standpoint there's clearly no difference but >> um and the city saying where you can use wells and where you can't um because all these homeowners again have have water coming right onto their property but the city doesn't have water going through the acres of acres of parks and the fields of parks right That's most of our parks. We could easily hook right in there. >> Well, it it could be, but I just mean the difference in price between irrigating um your home and your yard versus the difference between a city installing a probably a tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars irrigation system in a huge park when you have fields and baseball parks is is pretty substantial. I agree with that, which is why I don't want to not irrigate >> and everyone benefits from the parks being irrigated and not just one specific homeowner. >> Well, one specific homeowner paid for it. Again, we're not going to change my mind on this. I don't really think that it is this is we're picking at at almost nothing here. So, >> knowing that the issue is do we allow private irrigation wells or not, where do you stand? Um to allow private irrigate um I want to define what irrigation is which that's future um >> watering your lawn >> watering your lawn or pulling from storm water or so >> a private irrigation well correct me if I'm wrong is what you would use for a hose that's attached to wash your car or to water your flowers in your lawn >> or but can but I want to have addressed the storm and ponds what help and diagnosis so that we as a city there's a lot of benefits to it so that we could too so um and then um yes there should be a permit since the ordinance says but I think the permit's pretty um not not very painful yeah it's >> on the issue of irrigation wells are you private irrigation wells are you for or against them >> um I'm for them. >> Okay. Yes. >> And that they can be used for more than just watering their grass or like where I guess it's that whole um to supplement >> that watering the grass. >> They're not a lot a lot. >> It's it's like a two layered. >> Yeah, >> it's a two- layered ordinance. See, if we keep looking at the Madina one, it's like there's the private resident has their own irrigation well or it's an HOA or a business that has a storm water management plan that utilizes water reuse on their property and would need >> the storm water separate though from this, right? This is just for the well part. So, the storm water is another. >> Yes. I um for irrigation only I am okay with having private irrigation wells in the city. I would like to make sure and I haven't done my research on this that we're careful about um the possibility of private largecale private wells. So I'm I we're seeing a lot of things in the area about data centers and a lot of data centers want their own private well that we have if we allow it has we have no control over and it goes through the DNR and all of these other things can affect city water. That's more concerning to me. I am okay with residents having private irrigation laws. >> All right. So it sounds like we need to firm up that permitting process. >> And then is there a separate one for like data centers, that kind of stuff that we need to look at? Because I think >> they're not they're not they wouldn't be putting in an irrigation well. >> No, that's why I said different. >> This is a different >> and do we address that in other places in your ordinance? Then if we were to have certain businesses, I think we'd have to do it by his own. You'd have to just say commercial industrial lawyer. Well, that's a good I mean, this is that's a totally separate conversation. Most cities have no uh data center zoning provisions yet. I mean, this is all this is all very new. Um, so I would um I would say that, you know, that's probably a good issue if the council's concerned about it for Aaron and her and our team to to start thinking about. Um, one city that I know of is in the process of updating or creating zoning provisions for data centers, um, and tying some of the requirements into resources like water and electricity and those kinds of things. It's the only city that's done it um, and that was because it was prompted by a small data center that was um, looking to to locate there and they wanted to try to get out ahead of it. So I don't think that's a bad idea, but I I think that's a huge discussion that is very different from the irrigation well discussion. >> What is a data center? Is that considered industrial? >> Um could be or um some cities um well there's really no definition of data centers yet. So but generally yes because it's large warehouse type uses, industrial type uses that are less business, more industry related. >> Okay. So, we're just saying the word data center because it's one we can all put our brain on right now. So, when we're talking about whatever might else might fall into that category. Um, I don't know if we have any provisions on that for what's coming. >> Yeah, my concern would be under from my understanding from our last discussion Dave was saying that as of right now, we don't have to worry about it because anything within the city, there's no other than irrigation specific, we don't allow any private well drilling with the exception of irrigation in the city. So, >> as long as you're as long as you have municipal water, if you have access to municipal water, that's true. And I don't think we have any land that's zoned industrial, business, commercial, that isn't within the water service area. It would be an egg property. And before we would reszone it, we'd want to make sure those things. It's kind of a >> But I just >> backwards to get >> I just want to make that clear because not that I'm I'm against that usage going forward. I just want to make sure that if that usage ever comes up, we're prepared to have that discussion because that can have a much bigger impact on the community. um when it comes to those responses >> as an aside and realizing that it's a separate issue than the one that we're dealing with now. >> I would like to see us kind of think that through being able to read the tea leaves and knowing that potentially we could be dealing or whoever's in our seats in a number of years could be dealing with an applicant that kind of applicant and making sure that we're ready for that. Yeah, their is the data center issues. I mean, they use water to cool their servers and they use lots of water to cool their servers. Um, at least the way they're currently being created. So, the issue, you know, those are those are big deals for the city and any um group of people that live near it. So, >> are you okay if we bifurcate those issues though? Two separate topics. >> Yeah, 100%. Yeah, but I kind of want it to be on our maybe a longterm radar. Yeah. >> You say long term like do you have an expectation? >> Do you want to just parked or do you want us to be actively looking at it? >> I think we should be actively >> before it gets here behind the book. >> Yeah. Cuz what if we get a call and then Carver seems really lucrative or data centers where our answer is no. We don't have anything on the books. >> Great. We'll be out tomorrow. Yeah, I think it's Yeah, I think we should work. >> Understanding that we can't say no to any user, I think there are some guard rails and expectations that we can set through >> ordinance and other rules. >> Okay. >> Sounds like a fun project for you, Dave. >> Okay. >> And I mean, that's that's going to be that's going to be a planning commission endeavor because this will be a zoning it'll be zoning related. So, that'll go through there. >> You guys are going to have fun. And I don't think we need to have this finished by June 1st, but >> and especially like if there's a neighboring community and I know that there are oodles of them that are working their way through this and we kind of want to see how it shakes out, but I think it's a 2026 project for sure. >> That should be data centers. >> Correct. Yes. I'm sorry. >> I'm way off. >> Okay. Um Okay, moving on. Next, uh we will start draft hydrant flushing. >> Okay. Let's keep talking about water. Yeah, >> everyone's so excited about it tonight. >> So, we're looking at uh creating a hydrant maintenance and line flushing programs. Kind of a policy. Um you know, the purpose is the why we flush is to inc improve the water quality and the distribution system. Um, it gives us an opportunity to verify the operation of hydrants and valves in the system. Um, it helps us find weaknesses in the system. Uh, when we're moving that much water, we can, you know, tell where, you know, there might be a spot where a loop is needed or we have bad fire flows in a location. So, really kind of just tests the system every year. Um, you know, and it checks for closed valves. If there's something in the system where they open a hydrogen, they're expecting a certain flow and it doesn't happen. You know, why is that? Is something closed that we don't want it to be closed. Um, and then, you know, just make sure we have adequate fireflow. That's kind of the purpose of flushing hydrants. So, we don't really have anything in policy for ourselves. It's just kind of a practice that seems like it happens most years but not every year. And I think we understand the importance of making this regularly. So that's why we we really want to have this uh policy in place um to flush hydrants twice a year. a spring campaign starting around in April or going into May and then a fall campaign in October through November. >> Does that mean every hydrant in the city gets flushed twice a year? Yeah. >> Okay. Well, this when you're looking at those dates, um, you know, as we're getting into November, I worry a little bit about temperatures with ice because once you flush all that water out in the road, um, tell >> everything is temperature based or like water usage rate. So, if there's if we're peaked in early May for some reason and we can't just we it's a strain on the system to dump that much water on the ground because we can only produce so much water a day. That's why we pick these windows where hopefully it's thawed, >> hopefully it's not too cold. Um, but you know, that's where we want to try to keep it in these windows the best we can so we have enough water supply to clean everything. It's been sitting all winter. Um, so we can flush it out, make it all clean for the summer and then again in the fall, clean it out before winter. So, you know, those temperature things are always playing in our heads. Hopefully hopefully we're done in October and not going into November where it's starting to freeze. But >> do most cities do twice a year? >> Most do. >> Okay. And that's considered best management practices. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> It's a good way to get water main breaks to happen, too. Um, which we don't want. >> Could not happen. I hope you're not >> to happen. They always happen when you're flushing because you're wrenching on the system and you're >> forcing a lot of water through and it's in the freeze thaws time here. But uh >> so right now I think we do a lot of postings on Facebook and we have like a sandwich board that we put out through the neighborhood, you know. So we would continue uh to do that type of social media presence. If we have an app, it would be a cool way to push it out to people that live in a specific area. Um, so they can get used to that. Um, you know, >> I've heard good feedback on the signs, by the way, and people like those sandwich board signs. I've heard good feedback on it. >> Definitely helps when you drive into your neighborhood >> to see that. It's kind of a reminder. And that's why I think, you know, part of this policy would be very good to get into the rout routine so people expect it to happen. So when they see those sandwich boards or they it hasn't rained in a week but my curb line is all wet, you know, like what happened like that was us flushing, right? So that might uh drive some other decisions that they make in their homes to flush out their system maybe before they use it. Um so another aspect of this policy would be recordeping. We want to keep track of when we flushed it and uh if there was a problem with it and keep track of it in our asset management. So if there is a hydrant or you know there's probably going to be like five or six hydrants that need to be fixed or valves that need to be replaced so we can mark that on the map and get after that e either during the summer during the winter months when it's we're able to do it. Um, you know, and then another big important thing is if there's a hydrant that doesn't work, you know, the Carver fire department knows about it. So, we can tag those physically on the hydrant, but also let them know um that it's not working. So, if they pull up to it, they know. some of the normal disruptions and issues that occur when we do flushing. Everyone's heard of them and got complaints on my water's cloudy. Um, you know, so we can provide best practices on how to avoid that. you know, if people notice us in their neighborhood, they probably shouldn't start washing a big load of laundry or stuff like that because as that water gets stirred up, it's cleaning that pipe out of sediment that has been dropped in there. Um, and if you use your water, you're going to basically suck in a cloud of that murky water. So, we want to try to avoid people to do that the best we can. And if they do get it, then it's, you know, running your laundry tub faucet for a few minutes until it's clear just to clear out that line from the street to your actual house. So that's where those things happen. And if there's, you know, volume pressures that occur in the home, it could be from the screens that everyone has on their faucets and a little sand grain can get clogged in there and cause issues. But, you know, making that information available to people. So, we just want to get everyone into a routine, our staff included. So, that's just expected. And this is what we're going to do. So, I think the policy was attached in the packet for review. So, if you have any questions or anything on that, I can answer them. Super quick uh um input from me, too. Um, it's really good to have policies like this in place. I mean, if you wanted to have a policy about everything your staff does, you could. So, you wonder like, well, why do we have a policy here and not in other cases, but thing when it comes to um, hydrants and having a policy in place like this legally can be really important because it brings the flushing uh, policy into what's called a legislative immunity thing. So, if there's, let's say there's an issue, there's a big fire and a hydrant doesn't work and for some reason something terrible happens and the city was blamed for it. Well, you at least have a policy that cities have the authority to create policies and councils have the authority to use, you know, resources, cost, all those things and balance. What's the right policy? And you get immunity from legal liability when something bad might happen because staff is simply implementing your policy as a council. Um, so, um, I I say that because you probably wonder, well, what qualified? I mean, this is something that is a great policy to have for that reason, especially given the, um, you know, nature of what fire hydrants are are there for and the fact that they tie into your water system and water supply and all those things. So, from my standpoint, this is good. >> Okay. >> And two thumbs up of approval. >> It is 650. Um, I think this is pretty straightforward. Do you guys want to hold this and opine in the regular meeting or can we thumbs up it right now? >> I think it's great. I have nothing to >> All right. I think we got four thumbs up on this. So, we look forward to seeing this on a consent agenda sometime soon. All right. We will hold everything else for the regular meeting. Can I get a motion to adjourn? >> So moved. >> Got a motion by council member Pasco. >> All second and a second by council member Sar. All those in favor say I. Oppos same. motion process. I was able >> deeply controversial, but is this best practices? Do other cities do it? Okay, we're good. >> It's an email.