Good afternoon, good evening. I guess now um that we've set the clocks back. It was afternoon in July and June and August. Um welcome to the Monday, November 3rd, 2025 meeting of the Orno Town Council. We're going to start this evening's proceedings with a with a workshop and then move into our regular town council meeting um at about 5:30. I will say um as we look at the workshop agenda, councelor Laray is not going to be with us this evening. Um so he asked for the food bank discussion at the end of the workshop. So I think we'll probably move on that until the next time when councelor Lar is here to help participate and lead that that conversation. Does that make sense to people? Yep. All right. Um, first for roll call, we have councelor Andrea Hardison, council Sarah Mars, myself, councelor dear, councelor Leo Kenny, councel Matt Powers. Um, we expect councelor Baker perhaps. Does anyone heard otherwise? So, um, we'll look for Jacob uh to arrive when he can. And, uh, we're going to get started first with a police station discussion, uh, in our workshop, uh, around the building across the street. And uh Clint, do you want to kick that off for us and kind of walk us through we get now we're trying we're going to try something a little new tonight given it's we've got a 3 hours worth of content in this agenda. So uh Amanda's going to be keeping um >> keeping a timer that'll kind of keep us honest and I'll try and keep the jokes and aides and quips to a minimum. So all right, police station. >> Okay. So, um, yeah, we got staff here as well that can answer some questions, but for most part, I just want to give you a quick summary, give you some updates and some information on the proposals and then turn it over. There was a lot of questions when this showed on the agenda last time. You asked for a workshop, so I thought this is best time spent with you and what else you have to follow up. Um I put about a page and a half memo together um in there and what since we last met um heard a lot of feedback and thank you to everyone that's reached out um on just different things that we can do regarding this project. So the changes with benchmark and the proposal they have to us. I've given you an updated AIA contract their letters the same. [clears throat] The only things they've changed between now and then, or I shouldn't say the only, the things that have changed, um, because we delayed two weeks, they've asked to have till January 30th to give a preliminary budget. Um, they've also agreed in the contract that at the preliminary budget, we will have to have a vote and notice to proceed. So, that means the council can look at that preliminary budget. It will not be a final one, but that would another decision opportunity for the council to see where we're at and how it's coming together. They also agreed in section 116 that the preliminary budget c to get to that preliminary budget they intend to spend $92,9528 and they outlined that in the proposal what that included. Um there is a contingency in that section that's approximately 30,000. Um for refresher it's a $434,000 contract but it's not just for design. This is Benchmark is a construction company. We went through an RFQ and that's the next section in this memo. Um where we staff recommended because we had no design, no playout. We bought a bank with the intention to turn it in maybe to a library temporarily for usable space and then eventually to become the police station. The library doesn't look like they need it for the temporary space. So we pursued just the police component, but we need professionals. So we went through an RFQ process, had five proposals come in from engineering firms and construction companies and we scored them as a team. There was, I believe, eight staff that all scored them. We ranked the top two and the top two came in for 1-hour interviews and also tooured the building. So Benchmark was selected based upon their skills. They've actually converted existing buildings into police stations. So that was why in my opinion the team felt they wanted to recommend them and bring them forward. Um, it is different. There was no set price. Notified the council, you know, after we did this that we were going to begin negotiating a contract with them to see what their price would be. We did and that's where we're at that stage with you to bring forward that price to what they're recommending. Again, this is design all the way through construction management, bid management. Everything's inclusive of this. So sometimes when you see what's it cost to design a building, that's truly just the design. bid services are extra. Construction management services are extra. This isn't a relationship we're building with Benchmark. They will be the general contractor that builds it with many subs. After January, if we were to agree to proceed, they would then spend the next four to five months getting all those prices in place and coming up with what's called as a guaranteed maximum price. That would then be brought to the council with a notice to proceed for what that amount would be. um they have agreed in this agreement to go to the $2.5 million goal and they said this is you know if that's our goal and that's what they want to hit. We just met with them today. They are willing to do that. It's just a matter of what we can accomplish. Um their initial phases between now and January are to assess that building and what needs to be done to make that operable as a police station. It is a change in use. They take us through all the permit requirements, but changing from a bank to a police station, you know, isn't the same as converting a building, a home to an apartment building or an apartment building into a home. It's it's there are different construction standards. They will review those with us and make those known to the staff so we can share them with the council. Um the lead for the staff that one of the things that's been asked is Earl um Levante who's head of public works. He's going to oversee this process with them as the team coming together. Um, the last piece you had asked was an alternative to an RFQ. We can do anything the council requests. If you would like to rebid this as an RFP, if you'd like to do design, bid, build. The other question that was asked was about could we do um the staff serving as its own general contractor. Um, more than willing to discuss this with you. The impacts to that though, there are additional costs. Um, we estimate through this process it would be at least 75% of the two employees time overseeing all the pieces they need to do to get us to a project. And you still need an architect or an engineer to do all the design. We are not confident that it would be a cost-saver from the design perspective, but we're also not going to tell you it can't be. The loss would be is in taking staff away from their existing duties. We hire a public works director and a facilities manager to oversee those components. Facilities is only three people. They oversee all the sites of the town, all the cleaning, all the maintenance, all the repair, all the safety inspections, you name it. You know, whether it's a fire uh whether it's a eyewash station, as we learned here a few weeks ago, or a fire extinguisher, they all have to be inspected. They have to be logged and we have to report those so that we meet our goals um as a town for the safety of our staff and for our residents that come into our buildings. The last piece with this was we were asked a little bit more about what other design options would be. I think the only thing that staff came back is if we do rebid it. We have the work we spent with benchmark to get to this point. Um had conversations with them. They understand the council wants to make a good step forward. Um they're willing to work with us on whatever that may be. But again, this is the status that staff has it at. We have it at a point where we can move forward on a project um with a goal of 2.5 million. That does not include the purchase price. That was a separate amount. We already have a half a million set aside for the beginning phases. 2.5 is not construction only. That's the total project cost, 2.5. Um, so again, great questions you've given to me. I feel like, you know, rather than continuing to talk about all the stuff we've done, which has been a lot over the past 3, four months, I'd like to see what questions the council has so that hopefully you can get to a point where you can give me and staff direction on where you'd like us to go with this project. Okay. And um typically we just for the public's information, it's a council workshop, so we don't have a public comment component worked into this meeting at this point. So um we'll have a discussion questions from um council to staff and see where we end up. Okay. Um any questions for the town manager? >> Good. Councelor Kenny, >> thanks for all that. Clint, um can you just um clarify? So you said 92,000 to get to a price. Does is there any design that we're going to get in that in that process by January 31st? I think you said >> so what they got to do is a building assessment. That's probably the largest component to make sure that the build what needs to be done to that building to make it be um [clears throat] converted into a police station. So that's confirming structural um snow load for the roof was one of the things that came up in the conversation today. Is it correctly built for the modern standard? It since it is a change in use, we have to adhere to our own codes and we do have codes that in the town of Waro that we got to follow. We wouldn't want to ask other people to follow them if we don't ourselves. So that's part of what they want to go through with us. That's what they will verify as they're going through that process with us. Um that said, they have heard clearly they want we want to keep that building and use it as a police station. That is our goal and that's their intent. They just want to make sure we have as much information as possible. It will include a full analysis of what we want to use the space as. And my understanding is is there will be a layout and sketch of how we intend to use the building by that January 30th deadline. Um it will not be finalized for construction. they will have to go through with some other mechanical needs, but they'll also have laid out um decisions on and one of the ones we got to look at is is uh how to meet the ADA requirements. Um we have done some research preliminary before we bought the building that we don't have to sprinkle the basement. They will confirm that. Um they're also going to confirm whether the top floor will need to be sprinkled to meet the current code and with the fire marshall. So those are the big things that they'll have in front of us. It did come up as well. We've done some research ourselves for ADA that we didn't believe that there need to be any accessibility to the basement, but they will confirm that as well on what accessibility needs would be for the basement. Um, but right now our understanding is since police officers, there's an exemption under the state code that as long as we it's police officer space only, um, stairs to the basement is adequate. They did talk a little bit too. They got to make sure for fire code uh, egress, there's got to be more than ones. They're going to confirm all those different pieces for us, but we would have what I would call is a preliminary design with a preliminary budget that if we notice to proceed, we'll understand where we're headed and they will finalize those documents between u January 30th and June 15th. >> You say preliminary design, but it I don't it's not a spatial sort of design. This is a and and this always does really bother me a bit that we've got a building standing for 60 years and we have to go do calculate snow loads in the midst of everyone saying we're we're all done getting snow. But that that just seems absurd to me um to be very candid. But um so for 92,000 in the next three months, it's really not going to be a design of like how this how we're going to use the space. it would be how we use the space and what we intend to put on each level and how we'll meet certain um requirements like we do have to we have to have a bathroom on the main floor. So, they're going to help us find out where to put that and how and how much that would cost. But is it going to be a construction level set of designs? No, it will be sketches, layouts only, you know, our our concept, I guess, if you will. >> Okay. Thank you. Can can you um if anyone wants to to jump in here, please feel me to sure stop. >> Um >> Jacob, just have a couple of clarifying questions, Leo, and then you can have at it. Um so these might have been discussed. Well, I wasn't here, so I apologize, but um Clint, can you just clarify the the costs and what exactly we're looking at because there was some discrepancies between how I read the first memo and the second memo. The first memo talked about 3.2 two with 434 in design and um soft costs but then the most recent one was 2.5 with 92,000 so I guess yeah what did I miss >> um so the construct it's still 434,000 I've given you of that 434 the intention to spend 92 to get us to January 30th um there are many contingencies as I've laid out in those memos for them but they're not changing that price um what we did update is they came forward initially after we met with them and hearing what we wanted to accomplish over there. They thought 3.25 million was going to be an approximate estimate, not any budget, just a good number to work for for the agreement, giving us an order of magnitude. I came back and said the council prefers a $2.5 million order of magnitude. They have agreed. They will try to reach that goal. No promises they will. They're trying to. That's the and they will show you how to get there and what those options may or may not look like, but we may very well be back at 3.25 or some variation thereof by January 30th. We might be dead on 2.5 and completely happy with what we can get for that amount. But again, they're coming in saying, "We'll try to meet your goal. That's what the contract says. But when you see the preliminary budget and you approve it, you'll have a new number to move forward from." And so that 2.5 does not include the sally port which I >> at this point no but I will say in the conversation we had today we'd like to get a one bay sally port out of it if we could and they're going to try to work that in if possible. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> The 2.5 is inclusive of their fee or not inclusive of their fee? inclusive 2.5 >> the the 400 the the number that we're being looking at tonight >> 435 plus construction >> and all the design work and everything that'll get us to 2.5 could get us to cutting a ribbon >> good. >> Okay. Um but we could also come back to us and say this is what 2.5 million gets you and then if you want these other elements there'll be more >> but the most we'll ever pay them for their work is the 435. >> Correct. Okay. >> And the most you'll pay between now and January 30th is 92. >> 92. And then we'll come back. Then they'll give us a number with a $2.5 million run. >> And then we [clears throat] might have a $3.5 million run if we want to have these different elements. >> Yep. >> Okay. >> Clint, I seem to remember that the last time we spoke about this that there was a clause in the contract about uh when it was at the 3.25 estimate, not the 2.51. Am I remembering correctly? there was some sort of clause where if things came in lower there that that amount was somehow split like the savings was somehow split between us and benchmark and is that now gone or does that still exist in that range if we're over 2.5 or I don't know can you explain to me that did that go away or what's up >> there's still the incentive components in here but since we've lowered it to 2.5 it's going to be a different incentive what will happen is when we do get to the guaranteed maximum price and they move forward there are contingencies still built in and if those contingencies are saved. Um, under an AIA contract, there would be performance incentives for them coming in under budget and you would split them. >> And currently the guaranteed maximum price is what >> isn't one? You won't know that till June. >> But oh, okay. So once we get after January, if we move forward in January and we get another contract after that, it will include a guaranteed maximum price which will still have those incentives. Correct. That they don't exceed that and if they stay under it, we share some of that savings and they share some. >> Correct. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yep. Any other questions or I guess just when you bring something back to us in January, what's your thinking? I mean, it's important that I think, you know, like the police department's heard in terms of, you know, what I know I know you're going to be working closely with I know um Norm will be working closely with all elements of the of the town office, you know, the town staff, but what will be your thinking on bringing us different I mean, there's going to be, you know, the Cadillac version. is going to be the and I'm not going to disparage anybody's make or model of vehicle. So, I'm going to stop right there, but there's going to be different I mean, what's going to be what's your thinking on how we we >> perfect case scenario, we come back and the project's at 2.5 and it meets the needs of staff and as a whole and we're done. If that's not the case, I think what we'll come back is show you the 2.5, explain to you what the differences are of what we feel we would like we we need and want to see in the project and have included and then that would give you a different number. So, I'm really not seeing where this is going to be like 15 different options. Yeah. Or where you could shrink it. It's this is where we can this is how we get to two and a half. Yeah. >> And this is where >> if we didn't get to two and a half and put the things back, we'd like to see where we'd end up. And again, that's but again, this is a little bit new. I've done AIA contracts before and different projects. This is a different step to get to that preliminary budget and look at the options. I like it. >> I think it's a good evolution of what we're doing to meet the needs of Oro. And so that's why I'm happy, you know, to see the different levels of what we could get. >> Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Leo. You got more? >> Yes. Thanks. Um I don't I [clears throat] don't know if I missed discussion previously because I two weeks ago I wasn't here, but you just said it doesn't look like the library is going to need the space. Can you expand on that a little bit for me? >> Yes. Uh so o over the summer the library and again we're waiting on an update from them. I got a meeting again tomorrow. But the library construction project with their original preliminary estimate when we went through came in high. So they began value getting the project down. When we looked at this, there was a significant amount of of construction happening in the existing 6,000 ft² library and we mitigated that. We said you can't do that. We we we don't have the budget that will allow us to renovate that much of the existing space. So they looked to more of just an additions project and they've redone the design now where uh focusing more on additions and a refresh of the existing space meaning some carpet painting of the walls minor minor adjustments not construction related. There was talks of moving bathrooms at one point in the existing library for the new project. With that the engineer and the design team came back and said you it would maybe only a limited amount of time we'd have to move out. And so rather than moving out at large expense and delays to the town, we said let's just look at it from a perspective that we would move out for a period of time and that we would continue to operate the library um while it's under construction for additions. That's the plan. >> So stay in place essentially >> staying in place while they build it. And again there may be full disclosure we don't know what it would look like. The contractors may come back and ask the library to close for a period of two weeks, 3 weeks at some point. And again, maybe even a month. I'm not sure, but if that were to occur, I think that's where we're as a town saying we'd be willing to put up with do that and have no temporary space. >> Thanks. Um, just another one. Maybe it's maybe it's more process and it's how how we're going about this. So, right now we're approving basically up to $95,000 for a few months to come back with a not a design, but something to tell us can bas kind of can we use this space to some degree. Um, [clears throat] and we we're not so we're sort of backing and then and then ultimately that leads to a 2 $2.5 million project, a $3.4 million project with without Sallyport. you know, that's kind of all up in the air, but we're still so we're talking about spending with the purchase of the building, we're spending 400, four million approximately, close to it, three and a half, somewhere in there. Um, and we really haven't had any dialogue about where we're going to get that money. And I and and so I I'm not real comfortable that we sort of are backing into the whole process like this to say, okay, let's let's spend this and learn what we're going to what we can potentially do. We're sort of in for the full amount unless we turn around and say we're not. So it it just feels like the conversation should go the other way that we should discuss yes we're going to commit x3 million 2 million 2 and a half three and a half 4 million and here's how we're going to do that and I know we have a lot there's a lot of we've had some bonding discussions and and that's that's what's kind of driving also my concern is you know we did learn maybe someone new but in the finance committee we learned that we have 300 million in outstanding debt as a town half >> town half school as a community as a for the taxpayers we have 300 million $30 million I was did I say 300 >> you did yeah [laughter] 30 30 >> this thing on um yeah sorry 30 million so we're paying about 600,000 a year in interest and that number when I heard it on the finance committee was concerning to me and So, we've had some conversation back and forth in finance and and um I'm just I I guess it feels like we have other we have lots of priorities and we have lots of things that we have to do and we're not having this all-encompassing conversation. We we parse out a piece and and this is an important piece and so is a lot of this stuff. I don't like that we're we're parsing it out like this and not hearing and taking a look at the full picture and making a decision because I personally I'm I'm more in you know every it's easy like I said to Clint I think I don't know if the finance was on there the easy button is let's just bond it. Let's just bond it and do it. That's easy. The harder thing is to figure out how we do it within our within our budget. How do we rep prioritize various various things and we're just not having that discussion? And I really appreciate Clint. I know you've chased down a lot of my stuff that request I've asked and I really appreciate all the work that's gone in, but it it's been a couple weeks worth. I don't I don't feel like I don't feel like that's what it it doesn't take a couple weeks worth. I think it takes time to really look at our whole infrastructure plan, capital infrastructure plan. What do we have? What do we what do we have on reserves? What were we planning to do? What can we push? We we things always get pushed. And I know everyone we all we like to say, "Oh, gez, we can't we can't push off." you know, we we've been pushing off and whenever we have, you know, we could have probably done more roads this year, but they also maybe didn't need to be done. So, those are all variables that can change. You can look at a chart and say, okay, every 15 years you're going to do a road and then you end up, okay, that can go 20, whatever. So the the big picture is that I feel like we're backing into this and it's without without looking at everything and it doesn't feel like the way we should be doing this and I I Yeah, I guess that's it. >> Okay, council Baker. And so, um, Leo, I hate to sort of disagree with you and we're last meeting and it really No, I'd much rather disagree with others, but no, really you. But, um, >> yeah. >> Anyway, um, no, to to to Leo's point, um, I I agree that 92,000 um, to be able to get to a preliminary, this is what we may or may not be able to do, just sounds absurd to me. Um, that being said, I I am going into this knowing that ultimately we've got to be comfortable with the, you know, full package, not just 92,000, not just 400,000 or 434,000, whatever it is. And so I'm the one that originally or in in collaboration with Leo, you know, wanted this push back uh, you know, so um, to get more information. And so I talked to, you know, some some developers and contractors that I know and and kind of ran these prices by them. And unfortunately, while they seem high on the surface, that is where we're at. Um, you know, this is going to be at the 3.2, too. It's at 6 $650 a foot and uh design costs um are a little high at 13% but everybody I talked to said we're looking at you know 5 to a,000 with 10% of budget. So I mean unfortunately I think that's where we are. Um, and as far as the project priority piece, I mean, I think of this discussion as something that that we started back this budget process where one of the last pages of the uh budget, you know, presented this list um of these are, you know, kind of the outstanding items all the way from a new fire engine to library and and everything in between. And and so at finance committee, we've been having these discussions about, you know, do we want a bond? Do we want to pay out of pocket for all of these? But one of the things that is not we're one of the things that that is keep that that that comes up and is not fully holding us up but is holding us up is that you know we are in a way postponing the discussion on bonding because we don't know what we're bonding for. And so this you know to I'm sorry Leo but to your point you know we should do this and then figure out what we're bonding for. I I guess we're just we're talking or we're going in circles here. So, um I mean I unfortunately am okay with this and and yes, I mean I'm not committed to bonding everything, but you know, we've already had conversations that if my understanding is correct in two council meetings, Clint's going to present us with an opportunity that combines bonding reserves and there's also one that may include all reserves. So I I I think these conversations are having Yes, it's a lot of money and yes, this is moving forward, but I I I'm comfortable with the process we're taking >> and we're not debating an issue now, right? This is a workshop to like gather input and ask questions, but um we'll have an opportunity to vote on this later in the in the um agenda. But Sarah, do you have anything else to look like you were >> Yeah, I just wanted to say um I appreciated everyone's comments. Thanks Leo and thanks Jacob. I think it's been really great process with really good questions asked and thanks to Clint and staff because this has been a ton of work and um a ton of work before the last stage and a lot especially in the last few weeks. Um, I guess I just sort of want to second some of what Jacob has said that I actually do feel that we've been talking about what we need to do with the fire station and police station for my entire years on council and we have had prices that we started with that I was very uncomfortable with that were in the 5 to10 million range and I'm not any more happy than either of you are that the costs are as high as they are. But I do feel that um you know what Jacob's talking about that they appear to be the going rate for this kind of work. So I do think Leo is right that when we get to voting on this as a council, we need to be taking seriously that you know are we committed to moving forward on this project. I agree from our finance committee discussions. I'm the third member on the finance committee and more numbers are coming to all of council from staff based on finance committee decisions. But there are multiple options for how to fund this that are one would be fully bonded and others are not to fund fully by bonding. Um so we do need to have those conversations quite seriously. Um but I I I think now is is a good time to make a decision about are we committed to doing a project in this price range and that's a different question from how we choose to fund it and how much we're going to take out of reserves. I agree with Leo that perhaps in an ideal world, I would have liked it to come the other way. I guess I'm just not really sure at this point what we would do to fix that retroactively. Um, and I I I think it's it's hard. I wish the price of eggs was not what the price of eggs had been this year, too, but I don't control that price. And I think to some extent, we are just up against the fact that costs are high. I'm pleased that we're looking at a project somewhere between 2.5 and maybe three now as opposed to 5 to 10. And I appreciate all the work council did to push back hard to try to get to a cheaper option and all the work staff did to really work hard to try to bring us a more reasonable and affordable option for taxpayers. >> Okay, there's nothing else. We'll close the workshop and we'll have an opportunity to talk more about this when we get to the action item, the agenda item. Can I I I would like to ask I guess I don't know who does any other does do other council members have any concerns with that 600 $30 million debt and and and the interest we're paying. Does anyone else have concern with that? I guess we're not talking we're going to hear diff we you guys are going to hear different options on whether we don't fund or do fund or bond or not but does anyone have any thoughts on that? >> Does anyone have any response to Leo's? >> All right. It's a concern that we all have. It's just this is not uh the workshop to sit and talk about this and it's a topic that's coming up in two weeks. So, it is a concern, but our concern right now is whether or not we're going to move forward with a project that we discussed during the P capital improvement and during budgets. >> Yep. >> All right, Dan, we're not taking public comment during this workshop. So, this is a workshop. We'll do public comment in a few minutes when we start the council meeting. Okay. And there is an action item where the public can um speak with us on the on this topic before we act. Okay. Thank you, though. All right. Anything else? We're going to move on the workshop. right on time. We are going to move on. We are not going to have the food bank discussion as many people know. Um SNAP benefits been have been an issue that a lot of people have been talking about and access to food and food insecurity. We've got a lot of people in our community who aren't getting paid right now um because of the federal shutdown. Uh Council Laray asked uh to have this discussion. Um he's not with us right now, but we'll have a he brought um some of the local food banks in recently. Um, so our next meeting on the 17th, we'll make sure that we revisit this question that uh, councelor Lway wanted to to lead a conversation on. And that'll move us into right on time at 5:30. The start of our um, town council agenda. And the first item on the agenda is acknowledgement of councelor Leo Kenny [laughter] who is um who is the the easy the most agreeable person to disagree with in I've ever you know it truly is. Leo's a tremendous gentleman and a lover of all things oro. Nobody loves orno more than Leo does. And uh I got to tell you you've been you've had a lot of influence on this council. um no matter what the vote tally say in terms of moving the conversation and getting things you know in front of us or off the table. I just I think you've been um really really effective and I really enjoyed serving with you. So I guess I started out and you are now completing as we probably meet until about 8:00 tonight by the time we wrap up our executive sessions. You will have served the longest town council term in the history of Orno. Leo was, that's the answer to the trivia question for those of you who play trivia down at Marsh Island tonight for one term because Leo was elected um in 2022, March of 22 with um you know, some number of votes, less than Sonia, but enough to get elected. And um and then we extended the we moved the elections to November. So Leo's term was extended seven months and he's the first person who served a full term under that new new timing. So thank you very much to Leo. I'm sure others may have >> Yeah. What's that? >> Yeah, Rob got elected to finish a term. So, you're Yeah, he Yeah. So, he's actually in his second term now. So, I had to convolute my way to make that true, but Yeah, I do that from time to time. Yeah. So, thank you, Leo, very much for your service. I I'd love to hear from others who have enjoyed working with Leo as much as I have. I know we're going to see him around town and here as well. Sarah. >> Yeah. I just want to add, Leo, I honestly am having a hard time imagining council without you. I've really enjoyed working with you side by side and we've agreed on some things completely, other things not much at all. And it's always a pleasure to work with you. I learn every time from the questions you ask and the attitude you bring really just the kindness, the big-heartedness, the warmth, and the deep caring that you have for everyone in this town and that you've brought to this council. So, thank you, >> Council Baker. [laughter] >> No. Uh, Leo was one of the first people I talked to when I thought about running and um just, you know, provided really good insight and and I also feel like anytime I call Leo with a ridiculous what I consider a ridiculous idea, he's willing to to talk through it with me. and and also, you know, I I truly appreciate the, you know, ability to, you know, talk through things and and and push back and and really kind of dive into the the details. It's not, you know, something you you see from a lot of of public officials. So, um, appreciate it. >> Thank you, Leo. We haven't agreed on much, and that's okay. [laughter] Yeah, we agreed on a couple of things, but um but you know, like government doesn't work if we're all thinking the same thing cuz then we just all go down bad places or we get the Shanganger. We we've gotten the Shanganger, right? No. Okay. But we go to bad places if if there isn't push back and there isn't disagreement and people coming with different ideas and um different viewpoints. It's really been um good to work with you. So, thanks Leo. And uh >> we'll uh see you around town and thanks Yeah. for and thanks for um yeah for your wonderful words with Pat. That was really amazing. I really appreciated that. Thank you. >> Yep. >> Okay, Andrea. >> I just want to say thank you for all that you've taught me in the year that I've been here. And um I think we're going to miss your knowledge and we might not miss the buttons pushed, but I think we will miss them, too. >> Yeah. All right. Well, Leo, anything to >> Well, of course. Uh thank you guys all uh very much. Um I saw five minutes on the agenda for that and I thought you booked about 4 minutes and 45 seconds too much. Uh, I figured you could wrap that up in 15, but I appreciate all the all the kind words uh from my fellow counselors. Um, and would echo uh many of them back to you as well. Um, and I would also mention the the a hand handful of other folks, same with a handful of other folks that I've served with over the last three and a halfish years. Uh, and I would probably especially say Tom Perry and Jeff Wingard, who I still hold in very high regard. So, um, I got a little got a little platform here, but um, past 20 years I've been I've been serving the town of Orno in some capacity. So, whether it's been way way back in the school consolidation days to the RSU board a few times to this current town council. Uh, and unfortunately, what you guys, I'm sure, will all come to realize is that even when I'm not serving, I'm still around and engaged. So, you got you have that to look forward to. Um, and I think it's safe to say that pretty much on all the boards that I've wound up on, I've fallen into this certain role that we've kind of already hit on a little bit here, if you will. Admittedly, cost and spending and budgeting has always been sort of a key focus. Um, for me, with within every board that I've been on and typically diving maybe deep deep into the weeds at times, which can maybe get frustrating, but I I do think it's important. Uh, and it's put me at odds with maybe several of you at times and all of you at times, which um, uh, even and even the town managers we've had. So, um, but I I appreciate that even though when we've, you know, [snorts] maybe disagreed uh, at my proposed spending reductions, um, fellow members have always been respectful and I believe, um, also understand that my motivation is like all of yours, which is trying to provide relief to to oro taxpayers. Um, and I appreciate that differing opinions are always respected on council. [snorts] Um, I believe that staff has hopefully always understood that budgeting and all of these funding things are never personal. It's it's really it's always what we're forced to do, which is balance infinite needs against the finite resources that we have. So, um, it sometimes requires unpopular decisions and and votes. um which I think is a big part of of our role of council's role in my in my opinion. So this is Orno is obviously an amazing community. I've been blessed to grow up here. I I moved back 20 years ago and also more blessed to raise my kids, but um you know crushing taxes are a statewide issue and Oro unfortunately is is not immune to those. So, um, uh, you know, I I do hope that in my absence, maybe my voice at times, that that quiet little voice of mine might might be heard in the back of your mind. >> What would be Bo do? >> WLD. >> Yeah. >> Um, and again, really, really good chance that Leo Q Citizen will will be on the other side of the Diaz and able to maybe share an occasional point of view. Um, and uh, I I would also want to add for the record that I think our most important job is to hire a really good town manager. And I really feel confident that this is one of the best things that we've done as a council um to to for this council. We've it's been a, you know, fairly turbulent three years. We this Clint's our our third and third and final um that that we've that I'm I'm working with. Uh but Clint, you've absolutely been such a great hire and a great fit for for Orno and and he quite literally has not stopped since he started. Uh the guy doesn't sit still. Um and I think is just doing do an incredible job. So if if I can be associated with with one thing and it's that hiring we hired a great manager, I'm I'm going to be I'm going to be proud of that. So, uh, lastly, I do want to say for those that may be wondering, uh, after 20 years of serving the Orno community, I'm actually I don't intend to stop. I ran for state senate in 2024 for district 8 and, uh, currently planning to run again in 2026 and hope to continue serving Orino and the other 24 townships that make up Senate District 8 down in Augusta. So, stay tuned. Thank you guys. Excellent. Thank you, Leo. >> Thought I was going to have to use all five minutes. So, >> no, we you know, we were um that was fantastic. Thank you. Um so, next item up is agenda review and looking ahead [clears throat] looking out in the audience and looking ahead to our agenda. Um I want first wanted to ask to before I do that, any other councils have anything under agenda review in terms of adding subtracting anything from the agenda? feels like we're going to be in a good spot to take a vote on the um the benchmark piece. You know, we have what we need to move forward with that so we don't have to pull anything off the agenda there. Anybody have anything else? Okay. I have a looking out into the audience. Um it's nice to see everybody. Um I wanted to ask how many people are here to speak on the Crossland Hall or are interested in that issue. So, excellent. Um we have a future agenda item question um that it will be will come well over an hour hour and a half after people hear from us um after people share their their views and in the first public comment. I'm wondering what the council's view would be on moving that up so after public comment we talk about that briefly get some feedback from staff. Um, so people who came in here to talk about that and hear about that will hear the council discussion as opposed to staying for over an hour till we get back to it. >> Can you highlight what item you're talking about, Dan? >> Yeah, under future agenda items and council requirements, Lincoln was with us um and thank you for that um expansive packet that you sent um with us at our workshop and talked with us about the Crossland Hall issue and then sent us some materials. So, in re, you know, we typically don't respond to public comment in the moment. Um, but typically we we try to be responsive and get back to it. So, we added um a Crossland Hall public comment piece to the future agenda item. So, we as a council could talk about if this was something that, you know, was relevant to the town of Orno, if there's something we wanted staff to do or if we wanted to move forward to have some sort of formal discussion about it other than what we've heard in public comment. So, I'm suggesting um if we move that forward, we can have the public comment and then um I am going [clears throat] to ask people to limit their public comments to a couple of minutes as opposed to five minutes. Um but then we could take the cross hall um issue under future agenda items and just and have that conversation while people are still here. I mean, people can stay until 7 and wait for us, but I'd rather >> I'm still confused. Where are you suggesting we move it to the first public comment time, Dan? Our first action item. >> Yeah, right after the first public comment. >> So, we take >> So, we do public comment item number seven and then before we do the public hearing, we'll have a brief conversation about what we you know what we know about >> that makes sense in my my view. >> What's that? >> That makes sense in my opinion. >> I think that's fine. >> Yeah. Okay. So, we're going to do that. So, um is that okay with you? Should ask Amanda first. She's um All right. So, we'll make that change. Okay. Anything else under agenda review? Okay. Great. Thank you everybody. Um approve I'll take a motion to approve the minutes of October 20th, 2025. Second. Any discussion? All those in favor? You going to abstain? Yep. So, it's five to zero with councelor Kenny abstaining because he wasn't in attendance at that meeting. All right. Now, we're going to do public comment. looking around the audience. Um, typically, um, this is an opportunity for people to talk with us about something that's not on our agenda. Um, a future agenda item discussion doesn't really count as an agenda item. Um, but I'm going to ask people there I didn't count how many hands went up, but I saw a lot of them. So, I'm going to ask people two or three minutes. Try not to disrupt. We're going to we're going to time you for two. We're going to stop you at three. If you if you stop at two, all the better, right? And and try not to be repetitive. Um, if that's okay with people, really want to hear from you. Um, we didn't expect you all, but we're happy to have you here. And, uh, I guess we'll open public comment. Anybody have anything other than Cross Hall they want to talk about? I guess I'll take them first. You got to We got a public hearing for the junkyard thing. You want to talk about that or you going to talk about something different? Okay. And you want to talk about You can talk about anything that's not on our agenda right now or you can wait until it's on the agenda to talk about it. Okay. Okay. Great. Thank Thank you, Daniel. Okay, please join us. Yep. So, we're capping everybody at 3 minutes. We'll give you I'll give you two minutes. Okay. And just make sure the lights on over there and tell us who you are. I'm Daniel Leo 2011 Kelly Road or Main owner of 25 um map uh map 25 lot 8 and uh 18 15 and 15-2 44 and 57. Um, we we have something here that is down in the Supreme Court and it has to do with business as usual. I've been trying to get this paperwork out to bring it to the um the town manager's knowledge and I'm not going to belabor that here, but I'm going to preserve the rights on that so that I can bring it forward. Very important. It's a new It's not a new way of doing business. It's a right way of doing business. And the Ponopscot County Commissioners have been notified of this. And so hasn't the AG in the state of Maine and the Supreme Court in the state of Maine and several other counties also. Um this uh um I I will be bringing this issue to uh the town manager so that he can disseminate it to you and I think it's very important. Um I don't mean to be mysterious but I don't want to take anybody else's thunder at this time. I do have a prepared speech for three minutes but I think this is not the time and it's >> Thank you. Yeah, >> potential for a lawsuit against the University of Maine for their destruction of Crossland Hall, which is the only surviving building from the original deed that the original town um council actually deeded to the original board of trustees back in 1866. Now, I see that the director of space and capital management, Ryan Ward, is actually here in the audience. I had a meeting with him along with Alex and the vice president of SG. He is probably, if he's going to speak, make many arguments to you that I've already proven false in the research that I submitted to you. He's going to say that this building needs $10 million in deferred maintenance. That is categorically false. That is absolutely not true. I've spoken with many facilities folks who have literally said that that is a number that they pulled out of thin air. You can go through the building and see that the two buildings they are going to put them into are the worst buildings that they are much in need of maintenance compared to Crossland Hall and that there is no reason whatsoever. There is still no justification from their department of why it needs $10 million in deferred maintenance. We still have no explanation for it whatsoever. He is also going to make an argument that the space for Crossland Hall will start to com um contribute for 200 parking spaces for their new sports facility. That is also not true whatsoever. Upon their release of their October 22nd uh information about their developments, you can actually zoom in and see it will only give you 50 to 70 parking spaces. So, we're talking about destroying the only surviving building from the original deed, which also violates the trust that the town of Orno put in the the board of trustees when this was first established. We're going to do that for 50 to 70 parking spaces, not for what the act established this university to be, but for expansion for parking for a sports lot. This is not going towards students because you can see the location of the parking lot is not best to serve students is going to be for folks attending a sports arena game. So, you will see many arguments by Ryan War, but you will also hear in my own arguments and among students. >> Go ahead, Leo. >> Yeah. Uh just one point. Um, definitely with public comment, you are addressing us and and it's pro it's not appropriate to be calling out some another >> I'm sorry I haven't done this before so I apologize. >> No and and I completely understand but it it's not appropriate apologize you so >> thanks Leo [clears throat] >> but um you'll hear many comments I suppose can I at least address the university's public announcements that they have made which have been endorsed but >> those announcements are full of misinformation. And I do not have another word of being able to put it because if you actually look at the facts on the ground, this is not true. So I do encourage the town council to review the history of this place and to also see that the board of trustees is currently violating the trust that the town council put in this original board and that is still uh part of this major history that they are destroying a part of not only university history but also town of Orino history just for a couple of parking spaces and they are not being honest about it. And I thank you all for listening to our arguments. >> All right. Thank you, Lincoln. Appreciate it. >> Uh hi everybody. It's uh great to be here. Thank you all for what you do uh for the town of Oro. I've uh been living here for the past four years as a uh student at the University of Maine. My name is Alex Emmery and I'm the president of the Arano American Resource Opportunity Group as well as of the uh student heritage alliance council which serves to give a voice to all of the cultural clubs on campus to the uh um Uain student government and uh really really the work that Lincoln has put into this that all these individuals here have put into this and have put into Crossen Hall. Um, I hope that you guys can see the value in that and can see that, you know, the Franco-American Center that that that calls Crossen Hall home now serves as a beacon for Franco-Americans across the state of Maine, Louisiana, Quebec. It it serves an international community of French speakers and non-French speakers. Um, I myself, I made fun of French back in high school because I took a Spanish class and so we had a rivalry going. But but then coming to UMain and um um you know meeting French professors and French students who have been touched by by the French program, the modern languages and classics program, but also of the Franco-American Center. It uh it it it gave me a sense of home away from home as I'm from 2 hours uh south of here. And so really I believe that Crossson Hall serves as a home for all students regardless of where you come from. um so that they can go there and have a cup of tea, can have some chocolate, which is always um in supply. It's uh the most hospitable place on campus and and I believe that that that its destruction will will result in a fundamental part of uh the University of Maine's history being being lost forever. And uh I personally believe that it's a slap in the face to all of these staff and the volunteers and community members who have uh spent the past 30 40 50 years uh dedicating their lives to preserving this culture which is uh um so so almost thoroughly forgotten which [clears throat] is sad to say but but but the destruction of Crossen Hall and the displacement of the Franco American Center um it's something that all of us students here we do not support it. Um um and uh again, I hope that you all uh hear this well and and see the value in our arguments. Thank all for your time and thank you for um having us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right. Who's next? Thank you. >> Good evening, town council. I'm Tommy Pette. I currently live at 19 Oak Street and I've been a resident of Oro for four years now. I'm a lifelong mayor. Um, and I'm here tonight to alert you of the UMIA administration's ill-planned uh destruction of campus's oldest building, Crossland Hall. This building is an essential home to the Franco-American Center, a regionally renowned cultural resource that works to preserve the culture of Franco-Americans in Maine, uh, who make up one-third of Maine's population. There's many Franco in Orno itself and in Oldtown uh while also providing community-gaged research. This is something you have to keep in mind. This is not only a cultural center. It's a a unique place where graduate students, visiting scholars and humane faculty can work with the community itself. And this is coming from me. I'm a graduate student. That's a unique opportunity you can't get at other universities. It is an asset. So, the Franco-American Center has been vital to my time in Oro. I now research Franco-American history. I've taught in the cent's French after school program and I've grown my community community immeasurably through the cent's community projects. Tonight, I urge you I urge you as a UIN student or resident and mayor to confront the university on its misdecisions which Lincoln so clearly explicated. So, being a graduate student at UMAIN, I've witnessed firsthand the harm of the administration's undemocratic campaign to demolish Crosslin Hall. It's been made clear that the university board trustees has violated the original deed of Crosslin Hall, which required the board to use the building in alignment with the purpose of the main college of agricultural and mechanic arts, the original name of UI. Um, and I actually quote the quote here, the moral act of 1862 to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions in life. And again, that's from section 4 of the 1862 moral act, which provided the land for this university. And it's clear that the end goal of Crossland's demolition, a parking lot for Uain athletics facilities master plan, uh, extends outside of this deda obligation. So, as a connected proprietor of this building with breached obla obligations by UI's administration, I urge you to demand the university to fulfill its original responsibilities or demand compensation or legal redress. Finally, you must know that evicting the Franco-American Center from its long-standing home will have a widespread impact, negative impact on the citizens of Orino. You got to think about the people who live here. There are people who have lived here for decades, elderly people who rely on that center not only for connection with other elderly people, but they're connecting with young people like me. You know, that's that's such a rich resource. I mean again from the French after school program to social clubs orno residents benefit immensely from the ease of access and the unique facilities of Crossland Hall. >> Tommy you're coming up on well you're a little over three minutes now so >> okay my final statement is Libby Hall the alternative given by the university will adversely affect the oro residents who you know benefit from a Franco-American Center Crossen Hall and the Franco-American Center they're inextricable from each other. >> Y thank you. Thank you. >> Yeah, three minutes goes fast. I can I'm sure. Yeah. But thank you. >> Good evening. >> Good evening. Uh I just want to start out with saying thank you for giving us this opportunity to talk. My name is Finnegan Christian. I'm an undergraduate at the University of Maine. I am also Franco American and I am a museum worker. And I wanted to bring up the inaccessibility of this all. Um, I just want to say that I have worked personally with archival files and if we try to relocate the Franco-American Center over and over and over, not only are we going to slowly lose these files and have them damaged, it pre presents an a massive inaccessibility because the the files should always be stored with the place that they belong in. For example, I work at the Hudson Museum and all of our records are housed within the museum. They do not go anywhere else. If we were to relocate these files, it's going to result in damage. We're going to lose very important cultural information. And not only will we lose that, I feel as if as a Franco-American person, we are slowly going to lose the Franco-American Center itself. Relocating over and over with all of the inaccessibility problems with both Libby Hall and the other building that they intend on moving it to after Libby Hall. I'm just concerned with like [snorts] the stairs. I've heard the stairs are pretty much impossible to get up. And building off of what I believe Leo said earlier mentioning um the town's debt, I'm very concerned about the debt problem with Orno and taking on this essentially big project that isn't really going to benefit every anyone. Is going to displace a bunch of groups. It's going to displace a bunch of research and all for 70 parking lots. I think that's like like someone previously said, a massive slap in the face, especially coming from a campus that claims to be so like reliant on culture. It just doesn't make sense. Thank you. >> Okay. Thank you, Finn. Anyone else? Okay. >> Hello, my name is Paula. I am a graduate student at University of Maine and a community member. Um I will be very brief. Uh I just wanted to bring to your attention that the historical value of Pros Long Hall and the labs that are set up there currently uh and the work that is being there uh that is being done there and the engagement of the community uh are invaluable to the residents of Arono and everybody who belongs to the community at the University of Maine. Um and the town would be mistaken if it didn't take actions to protect the building. uh the value that we gain as a community cannot be um compared to 50 to 70 parking lots. Parking lots are not a good use of our space, of our time, of our money, and certainly parking lots don't bring the engagement and the richness that Crossland Hall currently brings to our community. Thank you. >> Thank you. Good evening. >> Hi, my name is Liam Rearen. I'm a resident of Bangor and a member of the Bangor Historic Preservation Commission. I moved here in 1997 to become a history professor at the University of Maine. And I'm here to urge the council to consider the importance of this farmhouse that was built in the 1830s that predated the creation of the University of Maine. Uh back in the 1860s there was a big argument about where the university should be located and a lot of different towns lobbied for getting the ability to host the university and Oro won that contest by giving two farms to create the state university. And that's part of why we've got this interesting connection of the deed and why the town might actually have a claim on that property. You know, the town council does not want to get involved in micromanaging or telling the university what to do. We benefit from a positive relationship between the town and the university. But I am very concerned about the loss of something like this 1830s farmhouse which is quite beautiful on the inside and has a incredible physical record of history that if that gets demolished, there is no way to recover that. And so my hope is that you will consider asking the university to save this building in some form. Its current location is not where it originally was when it was a farm building. It's been moved before, as have a number of other historic buildings on the campus. And if that was a way to economically save the building and allow the potential for some kind of fundraising campaign for the future preservation of the 1830s farmhouse, that would be a real achievement. So, thank you for considering this request. >> Thank you very much. Do we >> Good evening. >> Evening. My name is Deborah Dean and I'm from Brewer, but I graduated from the University of Maine and I have three daughters and two stepdaughters. They all graduated from University of Maine. It was a stepping stone for them. This building is very important from being from the ancestry of Canadian, the Tardiffs. I think that it should stay. And us older people really like to visit these places. But anyway, we're neighbors to Canada. Why would we want to lose it? Please don't tear this down. I mean, I've seen so many buildings now that are being torn down, and you know, it's just not right. I mean, all these kids, out of five children, one lives in Canada, works, one's in the military here, two are in Boston, my daughter here. I mean, we just don't want this to go. And isn't it grandfathered in? Is it grandfathered in? >> We don't they're not going to answer it. >> We're not in a position to answer that question. >> Anyway, thank you. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. Anyone else? Don't wait. We're going to close it out. Go ahead. Pop up. [clears throat] It seems impersonal to ask everybody to line up. So, was this but just when after this speaker is done, if you want to go next, please pop right up. Go ahead. >> Hi, I'm uh Gabriel Veu. I'm an undergraduate student at the University of Maine, um and a resident of Brewer, Maine. Um I'm here to talk a bit more personally on this issue. Um we've heard plenty of beautiful arguments from everyone here tonight on why this building is is so important to preserve. Um, and I want to talk a bit more about the the cultural impact that um, the Franco-American Center really has. My grandfather um, at age five um, was told he was not allowed to go to school because he spoke French. Um, and he was not allowed to to go to school until he spoke English. This is a loss that my family has felt um culturally um by preventing the the use of our own language. You know, this pain is real here in Maine. I mean, the Ku Klux Clan was so active in Maine against the French community here. Um that's a another little known bit of history, but um it's it's really painful, you know, the the Franco-American history in this state. there there's a lot of pain and having community pa spaces in order to process that historical grief um in order to to process um our history to share in our culture is so greatly important and I'm deeply concerned that with the loss of Crossland Hall um and the plan for relocating the Franco-American Center we have a real chance here to actually lose the program as a whole. Um, a lot of the suggestions the university has put forward seem very unsustainable. Um, and through a lot of the research that Lincoln here has done, um, that's been kind of proven that, you know, this this move is is rather unsustainable for the for the whole program. Um, and I had heard earlier as well, you know, there's a lot of archival materials um that are that are very precious at the Franco-American Center that would also be subject to loss and subject to um destruction or damage. Um, but also on a personal note, I would hate to see this community go away. I mean, there's older folks and younger folks of Franco backgrounds who are able to kind of express their their culture in a safe space on campus, which is something I think we need more of in this state. We need to recognize where we came from. Um, and by getting rid of Crossland Hall, I think there's a real concern that a space for the Franco-American community could be lost, which is the last thing we need in in a long history of loss. I thank you for your time. >> Thank you so much. Y come on up, sir. Good evening. Uh my name is Michael Mson. I'm a double double alumni of the University of Maine. Got my master's degree here just a few years ago. I started attending university in 1979. So I have about a 45 year relationship with Kland Hall which at the time I began as a student was called North Hall and was early on introduced into the fact that it was the home of John Gard who owned many of the sawmills here in town which related well to the forestry classes I was taking and learning about all the industries that were here in the basin in Orno and the other mills that were up here on the Stillwater Dam of H Longfellow who built that house. Um for me it was a direct connection to my heritage in the state, the forestry, the agriculture, the dairy farming that my family participated in season to season. and to see that building disappear and lose that connection that sustained me during that time in this community and during the time at the university and convinced me that this was the area to relocate to after I finished my schooling. So after my first degree, my wife and I moved to Oldtown, which has an intimate connected history to Orno via this little patch of land on Marsh Island. We all shared that two communities evolved, co-evolved, shared the resources, got together when they saw that the future of resource economies was disappearing and they provided these farms of the University of Maine a long-term forward-looking plan to sustain these communities. We had a nucleus at the campus. We were able to retain our industries. The university furthered the education of students and they were able to remain in this community and not be exported to other states. As I've written in many of my papers, our greatest export product in the state is our children. If we want to hold them here, we need to retain our culture. We're stewards of properties like Crossland Hall. We have an obligation to those people that come after us to retain this for the people that are coming in the future. If you lose sight of your past, you don't know where your future is. Thank you. >> Thank you. Okay. Anyone else? All right. Seeing no more. No one else. Seeing no more. Um we moved up the future agenda item for this one item. You know, people have another bite. If someone has another future agenda item they want to talk about, we typically do. Um but I I wanted to when after Lincoln sent us um the expansive materials that received by email um I for me hearing you know reading you know scanning through the materials and hearing from Lincoln and um I had a couple of questions about you know one is well I think it's unexpected and extraordinary for one public institution to tell another public institution you know like to change course with an operational decision that gets made. I mean, the University of Maine system has $1.6 billion in deferred maintenance that that they it's a burden to, you know, taxpayers, tuition payers, um, across all their campuses and and this is apparently, you know, one of one example of those. Um but I I think it's an extraordinary and and expected thing for you know one public institution to tell another public institution to change its course in an operational decision or path that they're following whether it's the university here in old in or whether it's visa or oldtown you know or whether it's a state or federal government issue I mean we I think it's it's a difficult thing to to make decisions to to suggest that we know better than than a different institution and so but the one question I had from the materials Lincoln shared was is there any link legal standing? And this would be an like an awesome decision for us to make in terms of size and scope and the things that we need to understand before we were going to challenge the university, you know, through a legal process in terms of some kind of right to this property. Um, as Lincoln suggested and you know, Lincoln started out his comments with that suggestion. And I, as a counselor who represents all of Oro would need a great deal of information before I was prepared to suggest that Orno has a standing or a case to be made. And I guess that was the first question I had for for Clint for you and for staff and just for us to discuss. So what do you think? I mean, what what would it take? >> It's [clears throat] the same question I've had since the information was shared, listening to everybody speak tonight. I mean, the great causes, great passionate reasons. It's going to come down to do we have legal standing to say that our rights were violated from when we transferred that farmhouse. I have no idea. That was my next question is I don't even know what it would cost to enlist an attorney to find out what that would be. But again, step one would be speaking to an attorney to understand do we have standing. Could we go back look at those original transfers and say that we have a right understanding and full disclosure it's been 160 years since that transfer has occurred and that Crossland Hall has moved and I there'd be a lot more research great document but where did it move from? How far is it from its original location? You know there's going to be a whole lot of factors that would go into that but I mean if the council wants to pursue that would be by far the first step. Um and there would take some time and some resources. I don't think we'd spend much on the initial question. I think if the answer comes back with there's an opportunity and we did have legal standing. You could be talking about significant legal cost to pursue that path. >> Okay. Anybody have any question on that piece? So the second piece I had I I I was interested in is just people come to us for things that are clearly oral matters that um are go through our adjudication process through led by our planning board or potentially are a subject of some kind of construction or demolition permit. And Mitch, I don't know if this is something I don't know what the status of this project is in terms of anything they would have to clear with the university. And my question or suggestion is is there anything coming before the planning board on this or through the community the economic development department that would be it would be extraordinary for the council to step in and try and do some you know direct the town manager to try and do something to stop this. Um but is there are there places for citizens other than the town council within our process? So, uh, currently we have not seen anything. M Mitch Don, I'm the assistant town manager. Um, currently we've not seen anything regarding this property from a planning board or a permit, uh, standpoint at this moment. Um, if there was something that came across, [gasps] I mean, demolition is a permit only typically for a building. Um, we don't that does not go through planning board. Um, so that wouldn't, you know, really trigger a public conversation. But if there was something bigger that came through, um, you know, through us that was clearly identified this property as part of it, um, and it went to the planning board, there's an opportunity at the planning board to to hear that. But basically the reality is if that goes to the planning board and it meets the requirements there's not a lot of you know a lot of pieces there um from a from a for the planning board to actually overturn that because of that. So >> I think there's you know >> yeah no I get it but we're talking lots of hypotheticals but yeah even less so for the council you know in terms of >> rights. Yeah, sure. Council, >> just while you're up there, >> might not provide any solution to folks who are here tonight about a specific building, but I'm just wondering, do we maintain as the town some kind of list of what are considered to be historic buildings in town? Is it anything we have ever considered maintaining? Would there be a different process for um buildings that do have historic value? Have we considered such a process so that folks do have some recourse on historic buildings of import are interested now. >> I don't know if my mic was just off. Sorry. Um, do you want me to repeat all that? My question was, do we have any kind of process around buildings um of historic nature in town? Does the town have any different process that folks need to go through to demolish buildings of historical importance? And is that something we might consider as a council going forward? That does seem like potentially a council um ordinance change to me. >> I think I mean, yes, you >> the changes are not retroactive. So, I understand it may not solve this problem. I didn't mean that, but I do want to understand what we currently have as law. >> Well, we do have the historic district, but again, the University main campus isn't in our we don't have an historic district on the University main campus, and they have the board that oversees that and their properties. So, I would assume, and I've never looked, but they must have properties list on the National Historic Register on their campus. >> This is not one of them. >> Right. and anything that that that that entailed would go through that would would be um governed by those rules that are based on that. So, >> but again, you can expand it for the town and you know there's a lot of options of what you can or can't do with historic buildings across the town but where why lots of big questions that you have to put into those um which seems different than this I guess. And the other question I mean absent any has I guess I wonder the question I can follow up afterwards. Has any attorneys looked at this to see what the legal opportunities are or is this not been reviewed by an attorney yet? >> Just just kind of thinking out loud uh to all the comments. Really appreciate all of the work uh done by Lincoln and all the passionate uh speakers tonight. Um, but even I I feel like even if there was a historic building in Orino that somebody owned trying to intercede and make them spend, you know, I think 10 million I think is what I saw. I again, I don't love these numbers anywhere, but um, you know, you going to you're going to intercede on a a private owner to say no, you can't tear down. you have to you have to put 500,000 into your historic building because it's a historic that just that seems like we would we would not have standing for that. So I' be really hesitant to to be spending money to find out just to find out if we have standing and then even if we do to get into you know back to um was it Michael? No, it was um Liam Reen maybe that spoke. I'm I'm never in favor of trying to micromanage another Dan spoke to it too, trying to micromanage another uh entity uh from here. So that's that's a tough one, I think. >> Yeah, I'm okay having an opinion about what the university does, but I got to take off my town council hat and go, you know, as a black bear dad or, you know, some other wherever the right standing is. Anybody have anything else? else. I guess I'd like to Clint had a question about the legal thing that I think we want to could put a bow on this, but I wanted to Does anybody have anything else? >> Just just one more. I do think I mean it sounds like a really interesting proposition. I assume it's been discussed on whether or not it could be moved, but I mean that if that were a real that that seems like a a viable option, but again, I assume that the university's it's been brought up and they've decided not to do that or or has not been brought up. Oh, it hasn't been brought up. Okay. I mean that that sounds like an interesting thing to pursue, but it's still not under our purview in my opinion. But >> I'm just curious like what does the student um government say? Do they have um sway and and and can they can they like vote on um a resolution to the to the president or or something? because that that's a government-to-government um intertwined group there that we don't have quite the same standing as the as the I I see we have a member of student government >> liaison to the town. >> Um at this time the student government as a whole has not made an official statement on this issue but many of the senators on the Senate have expressed major concern over this issue. the way that we were informed about it was sort of like we were unilaterally told like this is what's happening. There was no input on our part you know uh so we can I will bring this to Senate tomorrow and see if there is any action that we can take in that way if we can make an official statement if we can have our attorneys look into it but I can't really make any promises on at the time and at this time we haven't made a statement on it. >> So there you go you have a you have an attorney on retainer right? >> We do. >> Yeah. So, I can see what we can do about that. But I if there's a legal opinion out there, I mean, I'm hesitant to ask, you know, so we can't act on this tonight anyway. It's not on our agenda. Um I'd be interested if there's a legal opinion. Yeah, Lincoln, I'll ask you just a second. You want to >> um to answer that, um I'm a GSG senator and we do actually have a resolution going in front potentially for Friday because there's a lot of senators who are also deeply concerned on the graduate side for the same reason. >> Okay, good. So I I mean if there's a legal opinion that's been developed or could be developed in terms of oral standing and and someone I get the research that's gone into it, but I mean I think that'd be worth reviewing. Um again, I would not be I'm not interested in it'd be very difficult to take this on without a clear understanding that Oro has a clear legal interest in a property based on you know it's 150 shoe. we have a hard time f you know finding out what the previous public works director we got to reach back out to um so these things are difficult um if there's a previous if there's a legal standing that someone could produce for the town to look at I mean I'd be interested in having a conversation about that >> um I'm not so that's kind of where Jacob >> or so to clarify are you asking staff to engage an attorney to provide a legal opinion >> I'm not I'm not ready to take that step. Um I that's a step that council would have to you know we'd have to direct the town manager to >> I am not >> engage. Yeah. So and I I think that that's >> we couldn't at this meeting anyway. So it's a future agenda item. So I So that's kind of where I I I come down in terms of I'm I'm not ready to be I I I'd have a hard time directing the town manager to expand, you know, stop doing what you're doing with the police station, stop doing this, stop doing that to um compile a legal opinion. And I think a legal opinion would have to be just the very minimum the bar that we'd have to clear before we'd even consider anything as a town. But that's just that's my opinion. But Anyone anything else on this item? >> I guess I have just a different question kind of apart from the legal questions and formal stances. Um, has there been any informal conversation between the town and the university yet? And is that something that our town manager simply might reach out to the university about the process? And are there ongoing conversations or I don't know. We have a significant number of folks here who've showed up and it seems like some kind of informal conversation could be appropriate without any direction or opinion or pushing anybody in any way. Right. >> I do feel like we've had a lot of people show up at our meeting and it would be maybe polite and appropriate to reach out to the university or perhaps our town manager to have that conversation, but that's a question to the rest of council. >> I think that makes sense. We've been working hard to have, you know, better relationships with the university. And I think that's part of if there's, you know, we learned more about where they are in the process and what's and we did hear, you know, there's a the university shared a an FAQ on cross hall with us in our email this afternoon kind of stipulating their points. Um, but I don't know whether >> was that is that that action is technically different than what we put on the agenda. Correct. So, we're Can you Can you >> do that or is that appropriate to do that >> today? >> Yeah. Where the agenda item says what? >> Well, we can ask Yeah, we can all we can ask the manager. We We could request for supporting items. So, it sounded like Sarah, you know, I asked is there legal is there formal is there any kind of formal legal guidance that could be shared with us? So, that's one request for a supporting item. And Sarah asked if the staff could have a conversation with university officials to get kind of a sense of where things are and maybe come back to us in the next town manager report. That could be, you know, an appropriate way to do it. >> Yeah, I guess I want to clarify. I mean, I'm interested to hear where things are at from that perspective, but also just to communicate back that a lot of folks have showed up at our meeting and that is not a common thing to have this many people who show up and it is obviously of concern to folks in our community. um we may not have jurisdiction or desire to, you know, um tell another government what to do. I fully understand, but I think it's a respectful conversation between governments to indicate that, you know, folks seem concerned and that we're interested in and I I imagine the university, I would hope, is also interested in trying to hear these concerns and to see if there are any creative or collaborative solutions. I don't know. It sounds like there's been a process. We know nothing about it, but I don't think that's going against another government to just reach out and express that, you know, we've had this concern here. One final quick question. There's no residence right at Crossland Hall or Yep. So to cap to put a bow on it, I guess Clint, you know, we're we're open to legal opinions if they come through and if anybody shares anything, they should share them with the the town manager if there's anything. and if there's anything that comes out of the student government resolution and you know their the work that their council may may do. And we'd also be interested in hearing back if there's just a conversation between um staff in terms of the concerns we heard here today and where things are for the next manager report or meeting on the 17th. That makes sense. Anything else? I appreciate, you know, we there's little that we can do um without doing something really extraordinary and uh this is a political process and I really do appreciate everybody coming out. Um you know, I think you're shaking the trees as to the extent you can and I I know it's difficult, but I appreciate you being here with us and we'll keep you watch our agenda for the 17th and Lincoln, I'll make sure you hear back from me on what happens, you know, what we're going to have come into that meeting in terms of Okay. I really appreciate all of you everything you've said and shared with us. It it does mean a lot. So, thank you. >> Great. Thank you. All right, we're going to close that future agenda item. Um, thank you everybody and thank you council for letting us take that on while people were here in a way that was um timely. All right, now next up on our agenda, no more I'm going to close public comment. Um, and well, I already closed public comment. We had our future agenda discussion. Now we're on to public hearings. Um, and we have a I'll open a public hearing to consider an automobile graveyard and junkyard permit to the points yard 2011 Kelly Road. Keeping in mind that um, speakers will be limited to five minutes on the topic. Anyone like to speak on this public hearing? Oh, we're going to introduce it first. Sorry. Thank you. Pat. >> Pat Smith, code enforcement officer. Um, I was over at the La Points yard to look over the progress that the [snorts] representatives of La Point's yard have done over the past year. They continue to make progress on cleaning up the area, taking care of stuff as they can. Um, staff recommends approval at this point for the permit. Okay. Any clarifying questions from counselors? Okay. Now, we'll open it up for Thank you for that, Pat. Uh, we'll open it up for members of the public. Dan, you want to speak with us? Five minute. >> All right, Dan, we're gonna have a five minute. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Um, I have this write up. It said 3 November 2025 or workshop town council meeting reference agenda review item A. Consider to consider an automobile graveyard and our junkyard permit to La Point's yard, Inc. 20104473. Also, consent agenda order 25-268, order approving agenda review item A. Under the American Disabilities Act, I Daniel Leo, give this notice. I, Daniel appoint, give this notice. I have a claim that perhaps oversight. I give this notice. I retain rightful titles to the agenda review item A and consent agenda 25- 268 201 Orno Main 04473 Orno tax map 25 lot 8 Judge probate William Blaell has been actively removed from the bench for cause and feed is in the process. I reference the uh main statues and uh 698A2D page 1059. Also, case number in Bangor District Court 94 LU00007. I Daniel Le Point did not receive advanced notice of this hearing from town of Orno. I Daniel Leo point can be contacted at 201 Kelly Road or Main. Mail is often forwarded to 173 Kelly Road or Main 04473. I Daniel Leo am captain US Merchant Marine retired. I have um signed this and to this date and I put down my address and I put down my phone number 20786643772078520157 cap dan at 007gmail.com um Should should council have any questions? That's a would be a good question. If you put it in writing and send it to me, I will be able to respond appropriately. This notice is of my claim and I will submit this to the uh Mr. uh the town manager Duchaine or yourself, sir. >> Yep. You want to give it to Clint? You going to give it to him tonight? Right now? I'm giving it right now this notice. >> Yeah, please provide it to Clint. >> Thank you, Dan. >> Okay. >> Anyone else be heard of this? >> I guess I had one one thing more to say. I I am owner soul owner the property in question. Thank you very much. >> Thank you, Daniel. Anyone else would like to be heard on this matter, on this public hearing? Okay. Hi, I'm Michael Le Point. I'm the uh personal representative to the estate of Perry Le Point. I didn't think I would be speaking tonight. I thought this was just going to be like it normally is. Um, I uh applied for the junkyard license or permit. That's what the word is. Um, and uh had it inspected like we always do. I have it uh with the state. We did change the name to La Pointard, Inc. Everything's fine with it. And uh I don't want to point any fingers, but um probate court has ruled on this and that's where the standing of the ownership is. So I don't see where the dispute of ownership of this property is and that's really all I have to say about it. >> Thank you. >> If you have any questions, that's fine, but I think we're okay. >> Okay. Thank you. Thank you. >> I would appreciate if you'd stick around. I feel like this may not be a consent agenda item, so thanks. Anybody [clears throat] have anyone else want to be heard on this public hearing? >> You coming up? Yeah. >> It's okay. >> Hi, I'm I'm Deborah Dean. I'm from Brewer and this is a very sad situation. I have I'm an advocate for the disabled and I've seen a lot of abuse in this situation on this property. I also as a woman who isn't there isn't many junkards around anymore. I miss Mr. Le Point the dad of this property. It was his wishes that Daniel point would take over this business and it's been run around for years. It's caused a lot of emotional abuse. It should be resolved. But as a person that looking for parts, just for an example, there's hardly any junkyards around anymore. I have asthma, so sorry, perfume in here. But I I just think it would makes me sad that a family would put another person through such abuse when it was left to them. And it's been around every court you can imagine. Perry's wishes were to leave it to Daniel a point. He took care of the property. He paid for the property. He bought the trailer. He did all that. And you know, the American Disabilities Act is probably going to step in because people shouldn't be removed from their homes when they own it. And and the other thing about rims on your tires, I'm going two different places. I have a 19th centin 2009 Buick. To find 19inch rims, it was the points. You can't find them around here. I've had two sets sent from them places in California. They had bought up all the properties. I mean, I don't even know if Greenpoint's around anymore. I don't think it is. But the one in VZY, we need to approve this permit, but it needs to go back. Should never have left from who the original owner was. I don't know how that happened, but it was Daniel a point. Went from his dad to him and he took care of him. It was his papa. You know what I mean? So, I think it should be approved and it should not have ever gone left the hands of that person. I don't know how this agency got away with it or whatever. Whoever did it, I'm not pointing fingers, but it's going to be a terrible situation if we don't approve this to the original owner. That's where it is in the state of Maine. So, I looked it up. Anyway, thank you for your time. >> Thank you. Appreciate you coming in. All right. Is anyone else [clears throat] anyone online? Okay. Okay, we're going to close the public hearing to consider an automobile graveyard or junkyard permit to the points yard. We're going to you can take something off the consent agenda if you want and then Yeah. Okay. All right. We have um I'm going to close the public hearing. There will be a chance to ask questions if someone and I'm I'm going to ask to pull it off the consent agenda anyway, so one of us will. Um acknowledgement by council members. Start. Council Baker. Uh yeah, I'm all set. Thank you. Yep. Yeah, the um junior high girls and boys won um their division. Great in soccer. And the uh the varsity will play tomorrow um in for um uh the playoffs in Hampton if you want to see them. >> Okay, councelor Kenny, last time to acknowledge something. >> The last one. I'll acknowledge my fellow council members for uh three and a half years of camaraderie. >> Okay, council marks. Oh my goodness. I guess this is a pre-agnowledgement, but with the election day tomorrow, acknowledging staff for all the incredible hard work that goes into that every time it happens. Um, and just a thank you to all the community members who were here today to speak. >> Hardest, >> just a thank you to Chief Merrill and his team for their multiple responses on Saturday and uh, thank you for all the hard work. I've dying to know what happened on Saturday. Um I'll just I'll just thank everyone who's running for office in Orno. Um just running is in of itself a service and uh I think the we've got good choices for town council tomorrow. I think I guess the school board seat is um unopposed, but I hope uh as many people as possible get out and vote um and take part in our our process. It's very very important. So all right, that concludes acknowledgements. Now the consent agenda. any member of the public or any counselor can pull something off the consent agenda. Are there any interest in pulling? >> I'd like to council >> to pull order 25268 from the consent agenda and move it to action item. >> Okay. We will move that to an action item. Anybody have any others? Okay. Um [clears throat] that being said, we'll uh take a a motion to move the consent agenda as presented without order 25268. Second. Okay. All those in favor unanimous. Thank you very much. Um action items. Yeah. Let's do that one first if that's okay with everybody. Um so we just had a public hearing on this. It removed it from the consent agenda. Um what do people have questions about? We're not going to get another presentation on this. We had one from staff already, but Andrea, do you have something you want to raise or >> I think I just would like a little bit more clarification from code as to how is are we meeting code with this and have we looked at any effect on neighboring storm water or water wells, anything like that. Those are the kinds of things we could address in public hearing too, but since we've got it off, yeah, that I think that's the clarifying questions like that are always appropriate. So, yeah. >> Uh, previous to me being here, there was a plan for this property from the previous code officer and the representatives of the property. Um, and it was to slowly clean it up. From what I can tell, that has been continuing. As far as storm water, I have not come up against anything or seen anything that shows that there is a plan for storm water or anything of that nature. Um, again, I have not been here that long to >> Okay. >> Um, Pat, sorry, just I still had a question. >> Chris, >> can we just up there? >> Thanks. I just don't make you jump up and down more times than you have to. Um, so also just want to be clear, this is not the first time that we're approving a permit for this junkyard. There have been permits in the past many times. Correct. Correct. >> Is this the first time we are issuing a permit to this particular new owner or has that already I'm a little confused on the ownership question at this point? Is can >> last year? No, it came up last year as well. >> Okay. >> Y >> So, thank you. >> All right. We're going to do questions from counselors first on the on the and then Dan if you got it'll be an action item so you get a chance to say something as an action item as well. Okay. So just give us one minute. See if anybody else has any questions. I have a question about the um Dan's concerns about the um disability Americans with Disabilities Act. Do we have any response to that in terms of notice or how we noticed this? >> Uh I can take a look at it. We again last year we looked at these. We were noticing the person that we were identified. There is a pending status of legal litigation that the former manager had looked at, staff's looked at, the attorneys looked at. Um, I met with Dan and his representatives afterwards and left it that if unless there was new information brought to us from a court, we needed a court decision changing it. Otherwise, we were staying on the path we were on. Nothing has changed. We've been given no other decisions. Um, bringing forward an American with Disabilities Act. We can see I look into it. I think in all likelihood without a legal opinion, but my personal opinion as your manager, this will again come back to why did he lose access to that land and is does he have a potential suit against the people alleging to have that ownership right? Gets a lot back to being a civil matter between two property owners. The town does have the duty to permit this site and I would urge against denying the permit with pending litigation potentially out there because we don't we would then be putting judgment on something we don't have the information on. Do we have I do we have um you know we we follow our process though in terms of issuing like a issuing notice. I we do the public notice. Our meeting this agenda gets noticed. People came tonight because they knew we're having a meeting. They knew this was on the agenda. Um so we took those steps. Yep. >> But there's a I guess there's a question of we notice who we believe to be the owner of the property in terms of the permit work and things. >> Correct. Do you feel like there's any jeopardy for us acting tonight without you first talking illegal representation? Is this something we should take? >> I'd be more concerned of the reverse. I would take action tonight and then if you want further information brought forward for future research, we could do that. But I would be more inclined to say to move forward. Nothing's changed. Um, we're getting a recommended to continue. Um, we could get another legal opinion to share with Mr. Le Point and Mr. to a point to share where the town's position is to solidify yet again that absent other court decisions, we have no standing as a town to not grant permits on this site. >> Right. Okay, that clears it up for me. Anybody else have any questions? Kim, Mr. Le Point, do you want to briefly have anything else to share? >> Yes, I do. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Um the judge returned all deeds, all contracts and ownership of the property to me. The docket record does not reflect this. The man has been removed for cause. Now there is a question about storm water. Storm water is ongoing and up to date. I pay it every year. And that that's that's a fact. That's um then that has been approved by the state. And it had one um it had no requirements other than the way that it was. Now, at this point in time, it's hard for me to say exactly where that is, but they still it it is approved. It's up to date. the permit exists. There's numerous records here and uh Phil Ruck was the one that did this and he was a good man serving on the council and in many capacities for the town. The issue is at this time that again the Americans for Disabilities Act is in effect and it does have an effect. While the decision can be deterred for a month, I think I will have in a short period of time information to you because I've now have help. I haven't had it for a long time. My health has been very bad and I am improving. However, um uh that process for be giving you your answers and I wanted to give the answers to the town manager but uh through disability. Um and Mr. Town Manager, you could speak to Paul Pangburn on my behalf and ask him. he has firsthand knowledge that the council might be interested to have also and I thank you for listening to me but I wish to assure you the the deep concern on this issue and not only is my health affected but other people that have property up there is affected because my ability to administer has been interfered ed with some very powerful people and Peter Baldachi of the Baldachi family is no small person to have to contest against. Excuse me. You have a good evening and again if you have any questions I will be happy to answer. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. All right. Anybody else have anything on this? Okay. >> Yeah. We're going to need a motion on order 25268. >> So moved. Second. >> Move and seconded. Any discussion? D. I hope I I'm going to vote to permit this. I hope if to the extent for you and your family and extended family. I hope the ownership interests are resolved to everyone's satisfaction at some point. But I think it's I'm voting on it because I think it's permanent in good standing. So yeah. Y >> yeah. All right. I'm not Yeah, I don't I didn't mean to open up a debate. I meant to have a little empathy, but I hope this gets resolved, but in terms of the matter that's before the council, the information that we have. So, okay. All those in favor? Okay. It's unanimous. Thank you. That closes order 25268. And we're going to move on to in our action agenda, order 25271, a resolution honoring remember June Anderson for outstanding service, leadership, and dedication to the community. Could I have a motion? >> Second. >> Moved and seconded. I would share um in the interest of time, I'm not going to read it tonight. Bob Sinclair is not able to be with us this evening. He's going to come to another meeting, our next meeting um to talk about this with his thanks, but uh he encouraged us to move ahead with the resolution. And thank you to staff for working on it and bringing it to us after Bob's presentation at our last meeting. Any comments? Okay. Anyone want to be heard on this? All those in favor of order 25271 unanimous. Thank you. Order 25272 MJ. Uh the order authorizing expenditure of $10,000 from the funds allocated to the support orno festival day and oral arts fest in the parks and recreation operating budget for MJ Sedlock to organize the Orno Fest 2026. Do I have a motion? So moved. >> Second. Moved and seconded. Clint, do you want to introduce this or >> can I just before you begin? Clint, I cannot open this attachment. Did other counselors have the same problem. I have tried all day and it it keeps saying I can't open it. So if it's possible to reshare that in a way that we can open it while you're presenting >> on the website and opened it, I'll we'll double check with you on it is I can just It was just an email, correct? That's what I >> just a copy of her email. Yep. >> Okay, perfect. Thank you. Um, so the only thing I was add, I had a chance to meet [clears throat] with MJ the process we've laid out. Um, she is going to continue on with operating the arts festival for next year. Um, we were working on the agreement. Typically, we pay this in advance so that because she incurs greater costs. This allows her to start executing contracts, putting them in place. Um, she talked about the ability to ask for more. And I said, I'm always open to requests to bring to the council if you think that you can enhance or improve. Um, she gave us this email where she's asking it to go from 7 to $10,000. I've looked at this with staff and because of the way that the fall festival played out, you would have, as long as the council understands we are going to be expending the revenues we brought in from the fall festival to pay some of the bills, you would have enough from using the expense line from fall festival in this fiscal year to increase this to this request amount without increasing any budgets. Um, that being said, next year's fall festival, there's no reserves being created from the fundraising you've done. That will be a budget item for you to discuss this winter when we set the budget for fiscal year 27 because the fall festival will happen after July 1, the next fiscal year. >> All right. So, to be clear that the funding that we raised from getting dunked in that dunk tank actually was a donation that we gave to the Black Bear Mutual Aid and the food cupboard. So, that didn't have anything to do with this, right? It's just going to >> nothing to do with that. This has to do with business donations that came in >> to do things like the uh and we had set aside a budget as well for things like the uh fireworks >> and because we had enough donations for that even with doing them there is sufficient funds we would just have to use those expenses to pay it which is if you approve this what we would do. >> Okay. So, can you clarify because of this order? I guess I read this to say I know MJ didn't take on oral festival day. She did Artsfest. I thought I was reading this order thinking, "Okay, cool. MJ is going to do both." Is that not accurate? >> We tried. We tried. >> We almost Thanks, Leo. We almost got away with it. No, it's it's actually using the funds. If you see, it's funds allocated to the festival day and arts festival. So, we're using funds allocated to a fall festival to go to the arts festival because you're under budget. There was about 14,500 for both. We have not spent the full seven on the fall festival and if you use the revenues you spend in that will be left over. So, you could increase arts festival funding using the fall festival money that's in the budget. >> So, it's using two line items to cover one cost. We could increase orno festival budget to in we could use the funds to increase orno festival budget >> to just 10,000 and leave that language >> I guess I'm I'm pretty much lost I think on what we're doing here. I think Mitch was going to try and straighten me out. >> I don't know that I can straighten you out, Leo, but >> um we worked on this together. So, just to be clear, there is a line in the parks and wreck budget that supported both of these events that had a total amount of $15,500. after the fall f after the um orno festival day, we were able to cover all everything, all the costs and all the donations with money raised except for the fireworks which would come out of that that um the parks and recck line which leaves uh $10,500 left over. So there is that money available for the the um arts fest if you so choose. >> Go ahead. So that answers I think my question Mitch what you're I was curious businesses who donated if they believed they were donating to the fall festival that is where their money actually went is directly to festival day and there was just other money we had budgeted in a line which could either have been used for festival day or for arts fest. Okay, I'm clear now. Thank you. Okay, >> any other questions? MJ, thanks for sticking with us. Um, okay. All those in favor? That's unanimous. Thank you so much. And um, just thank you for I think you've done a great job on two years and really exceeded our expectations. And when we joke about you doing the ornal festival day, it's because you did such a good job. >> Really appreciate you taking on the ornal festival. It's a festival day. Thank you so much for that. >> I'll just say thank you um for your um, support of this and for the increase in funding. Um, I really, um, the thing I was most proud of coming out of last year was the ability to offer everything for free to the public. I really, um, see myself as an artist and arts administrator as, um, promoting the arts as a service to community and and that's really what I want to do with this festival. And, um, this is just a really appreciated vote of confidence towards that u mission for the Orna Arts Fest and I'm really excited to bring it to you all again this year and uh, and so is Everett. [laughter] >> Way to go Everett. >> So, thank you so much. Thanks, Bob. You stick around. Or no, Artsfest is a lot of fun. You're going to stick around. It's a couple weeks after school gets up. Um, okay. Can I get a motion for order 25261? Order authorizing town manager enter into an AI AIA agreement for design services with benchmark for $434,586 with funds drawn from capital facilities for 56 Main Street. So, >> second. >> Okay. Um, we already had a workshop on this, so I don't think we need to hear anything else from Kip. Um any clarifying questions or comments from the tum counselors? Any comments from the public? Okay. All those in favor? That's five. All those opposed. Okay. That's 5 to one with councelor Kenny opposed. Thank you for all the work and thank you for the presentation today. Um order 25273. order authorizing the town manager to expend $86,351 to purchase the currently rented excavator and $84,649 to purchase the failed Foreman's truck for a total estimated expenditure of $171,000 with funds drawn from the vehicle fleet capital reserve fund. Could I have a motion? >> So moved. >> Second. >> Moved and seconded. Uh we have a presentation from staff. >> We got Earl here as well, Leonte from the public works. Um there's additional a handout was given to you today. some great questions from the council. Um we've looked at this and again part of this is as we're moving into our planning. Um you've had a lot of changes in projects and priorities and goals. Um the excavator was pulled out 200,000. Earl's been here and the backho that we have in services as memo explains is not safe to be run. He he's taking it out of out of commission. He spoke to the company that rents us the excavator. They offered the excavator to him at a crediting us 80% of the lease payments we made for the two years we've had it. So it's allowing us to purchase it for just under $90,000.8 $84649. You have 60,000 sitting in an excavator reserve. So for an additional $24649 we could get rid of the need to ever rent the excavator again, remove a backhoe from service that's unsafe to begin with and dispose of it. um it's actually got a greater cost to repair than its actual repaired sale price would be. Um and that's in the memo that Earl shared with you as well. At the same time, they have been trying to make do with the Foreman's truck. They actually went to put a different motor into the Foreman's truck. This is the Foreman for land and mowing, not for roads. Um Mike Smart versus Adam. And when that was done, it did not work. and they have to spend additional funds to get it running, which would be another 10 to$14,000. And again, [clears throat] it would be a 2013 truck. Um, I've shared information they have some additional that was slated for replacement last year. We've been reworking how to do it. So, what I gave to you in that handout is an order that would move money from all the other little things at 25,000 for a wheeler truck, 45,000 for a mini loader, 60,000 for the excavator, and put it towards the purchase of all three of them. You would still have to use a small amount of this year's funds. We move 575 in the order 25. It was in the August order where you move the money around. So that all net effect, you'd have 350,000 left over in capital equipment reserve. You'd have no little reserves left remaining for public works equipment, but it's setting the stage for Earl to come in with a clean slate, have the equipment he needs. Based upon his preliminary capital improvement program, to me, it would only leave one item left for equipment that he's requesting for next year, which I still want to vet with him and review, but it is the conversation of replacing a vehicle for a van um for the staff, but I want to go over that a little bit more. So again, what we've asked is for 171,000 to buy a new truck for the head for the foreman as well as to buy the excavator we've been leasing for the renting for the past two years. The reason it's here is when we turn the excavator back in, they are going to put it up for sale. This offer will be lost. So there's been no competitive bidding. This is an approval of the council. Without that, you'd be fully uh aware and acknowledging that this is a unique purchase that does not allow for competitive bidding. That was a lot to share. Earl's here as well. I'll open it up to you for any questions you have. >> Okay. Any clarifying questions? >> Yeah, I don't I don't I don't know if it's just semantics or what, but the way I'm I think what was in response to my email that we allocated 65 for reserve. I don't I'm guess I'm not clear why we're how you're getting to 171. It's because you we had put 60 grand there. So, it's really a net of we're asking for a net of 24649 that we hadn't that we hadn't already allocated for the for the um back not back excavator which I think is a that's awesome. I think it's a great >> great deal and we should we should get that. So, I think that's I I support that, but I'm really not it's I'm not clear on the funds because I mentioned there's no such thing as a just vehicle reserve fund in any of our >> There actually is. If you look at the capital improvement program, you actually have what's the net effect of residual leftover funds for capital equipment for public works was sitting around just over 400,000 in the capital improvement program last year. This year, it's coming forward as of today. The finance department's updated. It's at 329,000. You added on order 25198 an additional 575 to it. So what we're saying and what's recommended by the order that was proposed in front of you is also add 25,000 45,000 and use the excavator reserve. When you put it all together, you would be well in excess. You would be actually growing the capital equipment reserve. It would be undesated. That's what led to the last sentence of the order in front of you that we need to properly identify in our programs all the account numbers to coincide with the equipment numbers for the next year's capital improvement program. It's one of the challenges we've had. You own a lot of equipment, you set money aside for it, and it's not easy to understand when you buy a light duty truck that you have four light duty trucks. Which one are you setting money aside for? So, we need to clean up how we're setting aside your reserves. That's not Earl's fault or your fault or my fault. It's a reality of just growing the needs of a community to better establish where that money is being set aside. So, this takes those funds out, the 575 and 251 198 with the 60,000 and the additional 70,000 listed to you in this order exceeds the 171 need and it's already designated reserves. No additional tax dollars. Just expending money you have towards meeting the common goal. You will need a mini loader in the future. you will need that wheeler truck in the future. We're leaving that problem to future capital improvement programs that could be presented to the council as part of a 10-year plan. >> So, I had also asked because I I I'm really I've lost track at this point and and [clears throat] it's too late, I guess, but I how many how many new trucks how many trucks did we get rid of and how many new trucks were were we already slated to buy? >> This will be the fourth truck. And when I looked at this, this is one of the issues we've been trying to address. When I started here, you had a lot of older vehicles on on your equipment list trying to fix the one we have and it not working is evidence of how we're trying and we're actually spending money and trying to keep them on the road. You had a 2013 uh looking at this. It's still at uh 2016. Oh, it's on the other order. Where was it? Got to pull it. You had two trucks over the 15 years in age and two additional over 12 years in age. So you were trying to maintain four trucks that you used on a daily basis. This is catching up with that need. The three you gave us prior July to do, we've done. We're implementing it. It's worked out great. Unfortunately, the fourth that we thought we could get away with for one more year or two with some fixes didn't work. And we're going to continue. If we spend again, we'll have $24,000 in a 2013y old pickup, which staff's recommending against maintaining. This is when you try, my words, to keep old equipment going. You sometimes get caught and spend money trying to keep them going. I don't like the fact that we're buying four trucks in one year, but I also don't like the fact that 14 years ago, you basically bought four trucks in two years, three years. You've got to get into a better cycle. This is part of the caval improv cra. you asked me to bring forward. You can't do this quickly. We've got to operate the department and try to have a plan. It's been difficult. It's no, you know, no qualms here at all with staff. We've had multiple directors looking at it, new staff coming up through. You lost a lot of institutional knowledge. We're recreating it as we go, but we're actually making it better so that we have a longer forward-looking vision. So, the CIP plan showed that we had I think nine trucks and I and we've got three new ones this year and I think I don't know. I think we might have gotten rid of three or two. I I really don't know, but I guess I guess so. >> You got rid of an08 Sierra 2500, an '09 Silverado 2500, and a Ram 1500 2013. This would be adding a fourth which is currently a 2013 GMC 2500. So that is four all slated were all slated to be purchased in the p in the next two years. Um we moved three of them up to this year. This is moving a fourth one up to this year. The next ones on the list from last year's plan is you will don't have you have an interceptor, a 5500 RAM and a 4500 RAM, but those were not slated till 2028. Thanks. >> Okay. Any other questions? Any comments from the public? So, is there uh [clears throat] is there a uh interest in moving this amendment that the town managers offered? You didn't do that while I was out, did you? Right. So, I I guess I'll move um that we replace the existing order with the order 25273 that the town manager has provided to us authorizing the reallocation of the reserves. You have it as well. Is there a second? >> So, second. >> Okay. Moved and seconded. Any discussion on the amendments? Okay. All those in favor of the amendment. It is five in favor. All those opposed, one opposed. So the amendment is the order is amended. Now on the underlying amendment, assuming there's no discussion. >> Okay. >> Are these items that were on the original presented plan to us for consideration that were then taken off and now we're being asked to put it back on? >> Just one of the two. The excavator was on the original, taken back, taken off, and is now being put back. The other one we had intended to repair and make it through the year. The repair did not work, so it's not functioning as we speak. >> Okay. And we'll be equipped with what we need to handle snowplow. It's getting cold. >> Yep. >> That's why this is being brought forward as it is to get the team ready for the winter. >> Okay. All right. All those in favor of the order as amended, there's five in favor and all those opposed, one opposed. And that passes 5 to1 with councelor Kenny opposed. Thank you. Thank you staff for the work. Um [clears throat] order 25274 order disposing of the town owned property located at 3 water street by formal bid with a due date of December 1, 2025 at noon. Uh could I have a motion? >> Second. >> Moved and seconded. Uh Clint, anything you want to give us on this? >> You tried to sell it before. We've had continued interest in it. We want to readvertise it and see if there's anybody that's interested it again. If this doesn't work this time, I'm probably going to recommend that you u contact a realtor and sell it through a realtor and see what happens that way. But just a chance to put it out one more time. >> Yeah. Just Yeah. All right. >> Um All right. There's this document says due Wednesday, May 29th, 2024. Is this just going to be updated or something that >> that we had put out? >> Yes, >> but that's why we updated the language. We will update that if you want to do it, but I didn't rewrite it because I was worried you might say no, you don't want to bid it. But the go the order is what would be done. Put it out to formal bid due date December 1, 2025 at noon. >> Okay. and nothing different because it looks like I think on this one it said like 7,000 minimum do minimum offer or something like that. So >> should we just drop it to just a >> I'd put no minimum on it. >> I mean say I didn't see Yeah, it did say minimum purchase price of seven. I'd remove it. It's time to get it back on the tax roles. It's a buildable house lot. >> All right. Do we need to We don't need to make a motion to move. Okay. So, you're going to just It's good. It's a good deal for Bob. You want to own some property in Orno? This is get you started. >> All right. You probably probably smart >> make no minimum purchase and it comes in at I mean, are we looking at we eventually can decide? >> Council is the final vote. You can vote yes or no. With whatever you do, the bids come in, you're supposed to award it to the highest bid, but again, you can reject them all. All bids will give you the right to reject any and all bids. >> Yeah. >> The reality is there's a lot of trees. There's a tear down. There's there's >> got to live close. >> And I'm your neighbor, too. So that's >> all right. Um so I think we're ready. Anybody want to be heard on this? Sorry, I'm being a little informal. It's getting late. Um All right. All those in favor of order 25274. You know, come on. You're still a counselor even though it's late, right? Yeah. All right, >> that's unanimous. It's five to nothing. Uh, six six to nothing. Um, thank you and good luck. Good hunting, Clint. Order 25275. An order directing the town manager to develop an orno stops initiative to lower the speed of the fastest 20% of drivers on Main Street between Island Avenue and Westwood Drive successfully measured by reducing this cohort's average speed to match the average speed of the next fastest quintile, the second fastest 20% in the spring of 2026. This comes from the community development committee. Could I have a motion? So moved. >> Second, but only if I >> that uh your question is out of order. >> Matt and I wrote it together after we had a long discussion with um with Andrea and Mitch was in the room so he gets some of the credit as well. Um so Matt, you want to present this or Yep. >> Sure. So, um, as part of our, um, or no stops initiative, what we want to do is lower the speed limit, um, mainly between, um, Island Avenue and, uh, on Main Street here and Westwood. And one of the ways, and we're also approaching, we have um, these new stop signs that tell us what um, people's um, speeds are. And so we're using that data, trying to figure out ways to use that data to see if any initiatives that we do here in town actually do have an effect. And so this is one of our first approaches and it will be to take say the top speeders and then break that into um quintiles and then try and drop that very top top speed um quintile average to the next lowest quintile. And I know that sounds very um um statistic um heavy and it is, but what we're trying to do is take those top speeders who are going through and lower those speeds and in the process um we will see probably a decrease in in in speeds on Main Street and hopefully see if any of the initiatives that we're doing are work and if they don't then we'll go back to the drawing board and figure out new ways because we're worried about um mainly the the people who are really going through here too fast and try and drop those speeds. So that's um >> that's what uh we're going to do and this is a work in progress. So if it doesn't work, we'll let you know that it didn't work and we're we'll go back to the drawing board for new ideas. >> Okay. Any other clarifying questions? I I do. In all seriousness, all joking aside, >> also Cheers. Um anyway, uh so listen, I I understand and I'm in favor of this and and but how is this going to work from a practicality standpoint? And how much time is it going to take to do this? Because >> all of these little like I understand it's not that difficult of calculation, but >> all these little things add up. I think what what we're looking for is um for Clint and Chief Merrill and the public works, whatever ideas that they have to come back to us and say this is what we think the manpower would be. This is what we think it would um Yeah. [snorts] And then and then we'd have to make a decision on whether we go forward with that. This is more of like a a factf finding to figure out how this would work. [snorts] >> Is that is that right, Clint? >> Yeah. I mean, we're not going to eliminate speeding. Speeding is going to continue. And if you wanted to eliminate it, you you have a staffing problem. >> So, we're going to stay away from those. This will be existing resources, some marketing money through press and communications >> and working with the police department as well. Um, putting out some notices, getting some good information. You know, some rough numbers. We've looked at this the if you look at the speeders, those, you know, greater than four 30 35 miles an hour. This is there's a measure that we could probably put together where you would lower the speeding by two three miles an hour in the worst offenders category. Um, and see how that works. And again, moving towards those kind of goals. I think it's a good number. I've reached out to other police departments. They've given some good community documents that can be shared with the public so they understand what we're doing and why. And we'll do our best. I mean, not everybody, the people that get pulled over will not be happy. Um, and the ones that are want to see speeding come down will be very happy. So, I think it's just an effort to lower the speeds on route two in Orno. >> And the buck stops with Dan. So, if you have a problem with any of our initiatives, you can talk to Dan. >> Yeah. You know, I'm happy to I'm happy to go into my election. Leo announces, right? I mean, I'm happy to, you know, >> this is an oro. This is a a councilled initiative. >> Yeah. It's it's important. Council marks. >> Yeah. I just want to say thanks to the committee and the staff who worked on it. I really do think that really trying to target the fastest speeders and what we need to develop as a plan to bring those down is a really great approach because that's by far the most dangerous situation for folks in our community. So, I'm assuming from what I've heard from Clint that staff is in favor of this initiative. Is that correct? >> We're willing to give it a shot. >> That's the spirit. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Y is smiling in the background so we're okay back there. Okay, >> we worked with, you know, a metrics and something to measure and, you know, we'll see how we do. So, if there are people, if the average in the top 20% are going 42 miles an hour, I don't know if we have the data, but if they're going 42, we can get them to go 36, we're all, you know, it's still too fast, but it's a step in the right direction. All right, anyone want to be heard on this from the public? All right, all those in favor? Okay, that's unanimous. And I can go home tonight and say we lowered speeding on YouTube, which is going to be good for it's very handy for my most important constituent. Um, okay. Order 25276. Ordered I take a motion uh for order 25276. Order directing the town manager to develop an orno stops initiative installation rather of traffic calming and pedestrian and bike safety crossing elements at the Oak Street intersection of Main Street just before the Brandon M. Silk Bridge over the Still Water River. That's at Marsh Island, Jacob. Um to be completed before the end of the 2026 construction season. And this is from the community development committee as well. >> So moved. >> Moved and seconded by the my fellow members of the community development committee. >> Again, this is a this is a plan, right, for traffic calming and to make a safer crosswalk at Oak Street. This is a very high um pedestrian activity area where people are going on the river um trail and then um wanting to get um a beverage at uh Marsh Island. No. Or just coming into downtown. And um it also hopefully would allow for us to lower the speeds of people going onto the bridge cuz that's a difficult pedestrian crossing especially for cyclists. But we're this is again just ideas and then we'd have to come back and decide whether we would want to implement those ideas, what the cost of those ideas are and so forth and whether Yeah, we're leaving that up to the staff how they want to approach it. >> Yeah. But it would come back to council for if it's a capital project, right? So >> council marks. >> Yeah. Um I just would like to suggest that we perhaps change the wording on this one a little then if this is also meant to be a plan. The one above said to develop an initiative. So that comes back with ideas for us. But this one actually says to develop an installation. So that actually sounds to me like to go out and build the installation. So I would suggest based on what you've told us that we change the wording to say directing the town manager develop an or stops >> plan >> regarding installation of traffic calming or some word. >> Yeah, I agree. Would that be >> Yeah, I would to like to have that um changed. >> Okay. I will say so in theory this could come back as we're going to put the blinky lights there. >> They might just be and that's what installation kind of sounds like to me and I think that's a those are fabulous additions. So >> great. I do think just to be clear Sarah on the point you made though like my my expectation or my expect as I read the one we just acted on that the town manager will update us but we don't expect them to come back and say you know at you know from 4 to 8:00 p.m. we need council's approval to have police officers >> I need zero approval on the details. I just want to be clear what you're asking from me as a counselor and I thought I heard you say on both that this is for staff to make a plan come back and tell us we have a plan and then for us to say go implement. Is that correct? there's a second implement or are we already saying go implement? >> We're going on the first one we said go implement because we're directing them giving them this clear goal and go do it. Second one they're going to have to spend money. So >> so that's a plan that will come back to us. >> We can change that word to plan. I'm happy to have that. That sounds like a good amendment to me. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Any other comments from counselors? Any comments from the public? >> I want to say that one thing I like about this idea is that I don't think this just um I don't think this just helps at this intersection on this side of the bridge. Um, for those of us who lived on the Webster side, it's also quite an unsafe crossing on the other side of the bridge. And just having a place where you knew you could cross potentially with safer lighting or a safer plan that comes forward, I think would actually potentially help both sides of the bridge. So, thanks. >> Great. Thank you, sir. Robert, >> um just fell again, you know, liaison um for thems. I will say um I'm sure you've heard about the issues on campus with pedestrians getting hit by vehicles like usually multiple times a semester. I think we've had at least three incidents this year already, which is crazy. But, you know, I appreciate your efforts in increasing pedestrian safety, especially in town. I know a lot of students walk through town, especially the ones that live on the side of the river crossing this bridge. It's very important that pedestrians are safe there and people do fly down this road. I see it all the time when I am here. So, I appreciate your efforts on this. Um, we're also making efforts on the campus as well. But I appreciate you keep making it to every meeting. We're going to name one of these speed tables after you. So, kind of you're doing a good job. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Anybody? So, we need to Jamie Ballinger speed bump. Um, all right. Yanny Powers. Yep. All right. So, I heard a sounds like we're going to amend it. So, Sarah, can we >> Is it acceptable to say order directing the town manager to develop an or no stops plan of traffic calming and pedestrian and bike safety crossing elements and just substitute plan for installation? >> That sounds like a motion to me. I'll second that motion. Any discussion on that? All those in favor of that the marks to merit amendment. Those passes unanimously, six to zero. And now back to the underlying order. All those in favor of order 25276. [laughter] Excellent. All right, that passes uh unanimously as well. It's good work out of the community development committee. Um council committee reports. I think I bet we go through these pretty quickly. Matt, you have anything? Community development? >> No, not right now. Just that we're working on um more of the same. >> Yep. Finance and operations committee. No update since last time. >> Nominations, evaluations, council policies. >> Um, we're meeting uh I believe it's next week to work again on policy and procedures manual. But I do want to highlight to my fellow counselors that one of the recommendations from the kneecap committee that was approved a long time back included some transitional elements that will happen right after tomorrow's election. And one of them is for all counselors to respond to a survey telling us what your choices are for which standing committees of council you want to serve on. So we're all on them now. Whether we're on finance and operations or community development or NECAP, we're all on at least one. Some of us are on two. There are also some council liaison positions where we have liaison to the Bangor target area development or OEDC or oro historical society. So, this is my telling you that as per the recommendations, you all adopted as a council, you're going to get an email from me that's been seen by Dan and Clint tomorrow night when the election's over along with whoever our new counselors are. And you have four days or five days, I guess it is, to respond to that. We need those responses back by Sunday night. So, this is my calling out to all of you. Please check your email. It's a quick little Google survey, but do your thinking. It's great if you want to continue serving where you are. If you don't like where you are and you'd like to move, this is your chance to say, "My first choice is not the committee I'm on. I'd rather be on a different one." So, please do check your email and respond to it before midnight on Sunday. Thank you. >> Good. Um, ordinance review. That's uh Rob, he's not with us. We'll skip that one. Unless Leo, we don't We're good. Yep. Um, DEIB, >> no update. >> Okay. Comprehensive Plan Committee. We had a public We had a workshop a week ago. Then the planning board and comprehensive comm planning committee had its public hearing um last week that was Yep. There are folks. Nope, there are folks there. Blind and I um so now that I think they're done with their their work and we'll come back to the council for we'll have to set a hearing date for the p for the council as part of our process and we'll work on that um through our agenda planning and setting elections tomorrow. Oh, now I'll move right into council chair update. Uh elections tomorrow. Um good luck and thanks to the candidates. Please get out and vote. Council kickoff retreat November 18th. We've got an agenda for that, right? that's set aside um for November 18th, we're going to do it at the Keith Anderson Community House. No, >> we're gonna move it. So, long story short, because of the setup and what's going with staff and the way to record it, we're not going to make this is not going to be available for the public to participate, but we are going to have it for viewing capacity and we're going to do it here. Um Keith Anderson just had some logistical issues that we just decided I really want to get you out of the building and thinking but when it comes right down to it having access to the public this is the place where they know that they can come and see you and we can record it best. So we're going to move it back here. >> Okay. Good. Um I shared um in the council packet we got a wonderful letter from the Blackberry Mutual aid uh fund thanking us for uh their support and the funds we raised as part of the um ornal festival day. I shared that for everybody. It was wonderful. Uh 25 26 municipal year organization. Um Clint Sarah and I are going to continue. We got an election tomorrow. So we the new council starts right after that. But we will um do this work to prepare the the council for a decision based on you. We'll have an election for chair at that first meeting. We'll swear in the new on the 17th. we'll swear in the the the return the counselors the new coun councilors who are elected and then we'll uh select a chair vice chair um and move forward with that. So that'll be um and we've got a series of things we're going to do over those first few meetings in November and December to get ourselves in that um sequence or cascade of events of setting our goals and leading up to the development of uh the manager's work plan and all those kinds of things. So more on that to come. Um the good neighbor meeting in composition. We approved the three humane students in our consent agenda including Bob Robert for thank you for joining that committee and uh Leo Kenny will be joining as a citizen member. Um we have to decide as a council if we want to appoint another counselor to serve on that committee and I think we'll probably want to talk about that at the 17th. Um it's Joseph I was Bobby. You did. I was going Bobby Joey thing and sorry Joseph. Um anyway, Joseph >> and can you remind us currently on the um good neighbor committee it was you and Leo and did I just miss you say was it also >> it was Rob was the Rob and I co-chair it and Leo is is on it. So we'll have to decide if we want three counselors. I think Rob wants to continue to serve and I'll continue I'd like to continue to serve. Um, but we'll have to decide if we want a third counselor to replace Leo now that Leo is a citizen representative and not a council representative. And Joseph, Jeez, crow. Joseph is on the committee. Thank you, Joseph. Um, winter 2025 observer. The deadline. Um, we know that Cody is not with us tonight, but the deadline for the observer. I like the idea of having a message from the council. Um, and I wanted to see if anybody had anything particular they wanted to highlight for the observer. there. >> Truly, I'm like blanking. >> I think there's some recommend I think there's some recommendations, Dan, that are coming out of the kneecap committee's discussion on policy and procedures manual that coming into the winter months is a really good time to target all the ways to volunteer in oro because it's not just the zillions of committees that we appoint community members to, but many departments also. So, departments may or may not be choosing to hire that. we can talk I mean highlight that we can talk with Clint about it but it's certainly council's prerogative to be sure we highlight and publicize clearly that um those committee appointments are open to everyone in the community who's interested in volunteering to serve. So I think that's something we could work with Clint to be sure we highlighted. >> Okay. Anybody have any other I'm drawing a blank truly writer >> script. >> All right. Maybe we'll come up with I know I was I don't want to miss the opportunity, but um anyway, [sighs and gasps] all right. I guess I'll wrap up my you know, council chair update before I get myself in any more hot water. This close to when the council will choose a chair for the next council town manager report. Can you bail me out, Clint? >> Easily. >> Thank you. >> Um so the sign up to donate for Thanksgiving dinner is out. Please get that in. Thanksgiving dinner is Thursday, November 20th. Same format as in prior years. Um the request we have taken care of signage for up for Ponomscot Street parking and we put in a temporary one-year ban for parking past um a certain area. Those signs are up and clearly identified. We are not putting a parking sign up in the uh land owned by Orno VZ water district. They did not want it to be a permanent parking location, but we have put a sign that clearly tells them where they can go and park um without causing on street parking issues on Ponovskot. Um Gilbert Street Tree, that work is being is completed. Bill's in um because that's a limited budget. I'm going to temporarily or permanently post that to a council project for this year since it was an appeal that came to you. And if their funds are available year end, we'll move it back to the tree. But it it was not intended to cut a $3,100 tree this year. You have a project line. So that's where I'm posting it. >> So ordered, I guess. [laughter] >> So told. >> So told. >> You wanted me to get you out of hot water. So what do you >> do? I like it. I like it when you stand up to us. I love it. >> Um >> yeah, >> the [clears throat] uh Benick Road, Mil Street, Route 2 traffic control upgrades are completed here on the street. Um, best we could tell, they did a lot more work than they wanted to in the last day to get it done and done quickly, and it led to some severe traffic problems. I'm sending another staff member, Earl, to our locally administered project management courses. We've got some refreshers with the existing staff. Um, this is one of those he said, she said, but I will take responsibility on behalf of the town that we will exert greater control over flagging and traffic control on what they deem locally administered projects, even though it was 100% MDOT funded. Um, so again, apologies to the community. That was bad traffic. It will not happen again. And if it does, I'll tell you who and why and how we will take care of it. Earl. Oh, they are coming back. does not affect the school. >> Well, there'll be none because we're in charge of the traffic control now. So, I guarantee you it'll be done our way and that will be the only way. So, there we go. Um, I'd like this one to be quick, but it's not. The county So, the process of how the county does the budget is interesting. They have a budget committee. The budget committee is not had not even been selected as of last Wednesday. And on last Wednesday, the county commissioners adopted a budget to take to the budget committee on November 18th. Um it's approximately a 20% increase across the county. Um managers have met and have had some conversations and are crafting a letter. Um I'd love some input from the council, but a 20% increase on county taxes is difficult. Um of that increase, it's hard to get to it. They spoke about a lot of numbers very fast, but from the numbers I interpreted at that meeting, it's a 16% increase to bail out their um 5 years of not funding the jail debt and 4% increase to all other programs. One of the thoughts that's come about, I will take part ownership, but it's a group decision, is that maybe it should be recommended to the county commissioners that if we are willing to support a 16% increase um for the jail that they should figure out how to come in flat for the year, their problem, their issue, their budget. But again, is that something we want to suggest? I would love input from the council if that's Oro's opinion. That concept is being thrown about and again, nothing formal. No one's been saying they're behind it 100%. But it was a conversation that was being shared. Um, in addition to that, there's a lot of ideas coming out. They got to reconstitute how they create budget committees. They want a strategic plan committee. Certain parts of their budget aren't fully detailed. They got to get a better calendar out. We've suggested it's coming out in advance. When that letter is available on behalf of all the managers and been approved, I will share it with the council as a whole and then it'll be shared with the commissioners. But there are a lot of needs for a lot of changes in the county's budget process. Um, and one of the things I will take ownership for is I said that with this kind of increase there maybe should be greater than a one-year commitment for flat funding. Um, that I don't think is been denied or approved. That's more of one of my suggestions. But this is a significant increase that has long-term impacts. And they still got to figure out how to fund the jail and when they're going to vote to approve it. So the county budget, here's your first town budget announcement. It's a 20% increase for next year. Um they are looking Yep. 2027. They are looking at a different fiscal year. There's a whole lot of changes they need to start implementing. On top of that, the county administrator resigned and they are going to be posting and looking for a new county administrator. So, there's a lot going on in the county budget process and getting it done. The night of that meeting is November 18th. That's the night of our kickoff retreat. It shows you some of the difficulties. they didn't announce that date um until weeks after we had picked that date ourselves. Um that's one of the things we suggested. They need to tell us that date well in advance and we can work it into our calendars and schedules. So I think what we're going to work is with between the managers or there will be representatives to speak on behalf of all member communities and I'll let you know as a council if there's anything you need to do. But right now I think it's more of a we need to see more changes in the county budget process. And if there's concerns, please call me oneonone and we'll talk to you about what you want me to convey. >> Okay. >> Is there a And I'm obviously dead men walking here, but is there like a 5-year historical like what have the increases been? Do have we looked at that? I mean, obviously we have that >> we have that from last year's budget. They're up I mean Brewer put them up over a 10-year period. They're up 88%. They were 3 to one roughly >> from last year's budget process over a 10-year period of tax increases. Um, if you look at actual percentages, so they're going, you know, for every dollar we raise, they go up three in comparison, >> but but for tax, but what about total budget? Because that's that's a different number. >> It's up a lot. There's a lot. I mean, I can't even begin to tell you what the staff increases are, but I mean, that's part of what we've told them. They're not giving us the information we need to convey to the community why their budget's up and what they're using it for. And we said that's one of the problems they're running into now that they're in a situation we can't explain to people where their tax dollars go. But we can look at five years of what has our what have what have they charged us for five years. Relatively easy. >> Oh, I can I that was in last year's budget analysis. I'll give it to you again. >> That's pretty straightforward. That would be an interesting number and not to break out tax and compared to what we are taxed because we've gotten 2 million extra dollars. >> I will share that and put that on the next manager update for everybody to see for the 17. >> I'm going have to tune in for that. >> Yeah. Yep. That's it. Okay. Thank you. Um, we don't have any public petitions, any future agenda items or council requests for supporting items. Seeing none, um, final public comment. >> Okay. Um, we're going to move into executive session. >> Cancel B. >> We're going to cancel and we don't have any >> no action. >> No actions after. So I'll take a motion to move an executive session pursuant to 1 MSR section 4056c for economic development. So moved. Second. All in favor? Okay. Thank you. >> Good night. Or help.