All right, get the recording notification. >> Yep, we're good. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> All right. Um, let's call this work session to order. Um, this is a little bit of a different work session. We have some technical gremlins that we are dealing with tonight. So, um, we are going to call an audible, wing it, whatever you want to call it. Um, but we have council member M joining us remotely, so that's why we're in council chambers right now. So, um, up first on our agenda is the 2026 street project fem. >> All right. I hardly hardly call it winging it, but I think we're going to get this done. So, um, Christine, sound check, can you hear me over here? Okay, >> I can. Thank you. Okay, you got the slides burned up. >> Okay. So, we're we wanted to take an opportunity tonight, Baron Council, to do a kickoff discussion. Next year we have a a bigger or we have two street projects essentially two different project areas. So we have a local project and a state aid project that we're proposing at this at this time which is consistent with the favorite match. >> Hold on just a second. >> Yeah. >> Are you are you seeing this or this? Okay, >> first we have this morning. I know how to do that. >> Okay. I was seeing the presentation online but now I'm not. Oh, here it comes. Okay. >> All right. >> Take two. >> Take two. There we go. How about that? >> We can see it. >> Okay. Okay. So, wanted to just again take the opportunity tonight to talk about what the projects would be for next year if uh the council so chooses. So, wanted to kind of just step back, talk about the goals of the paper management plan again. uh looking at a 26 product in particular, maybe a couple items you want to get some direction on and then talk about next steps. So 2025 was a was an important year. This was um kind of the fifth year of the plan. So we took an opportunity to take a fresh look. We did all new street ratings um for the whole city. Andrew and his team completed that this summer and we we kind of took a fresh pass through the entire 10-year um pay of management plan and you saw that at your August 4th uh city council meeting. So um that's kind of the background of where things are at. Uh tonight we want to take a look at what next year's projects will be. So um these goals are all very familiar to to you. But number one, extending the pavement life is goal number one of the city. So by doing that, you ultimately decrease the the cost for the city. And >> I hate to interrupt. I'm so sorry. All I can see is the opening slide that says the maintenance project kickoff and the date. Is it supposed to be turning to another slide? >> Yeah. What was that? >> One second. >> Okay. If not, I have my computer open. If you're following the slides that are in the uh packet, I can just look at it that way, too. If you can't get it. >> Yeah, Zoom is what we're going to share um tomorrow for the recording. So, things. [Music] >> And I'm still just seeing the home screen. If I go to where I can see all four of the chambers and Brenda and everything, then the presentation is so far on the other side that >> no one will be able to see it. >> Yeah. It's only intended for you to see Aaron Schmidt and not the screen. That's the best we can do. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, on slide four, um, as I was saying, ultimately we're trying to set budgets that set clear expectations for, you know, the 10-year plan, and we did that this summer. Uh, lastly, trying to group projects by neighborhood to the extent possible is the goal just because we we don't want to try to disturb multiple areas if we can avoid it. So, for example, we've been in the Carver Bluffs neighborhood the last few years. So, um, by the end of next year, we'll only have one year left and then we'll be done in that whole development, um, for many years. So, that's kind of the goal is, um, as much as we can with, you know, the age of the streets and such, try to kind of go de development by development, um, to the extent possible. And you've heard me say this many times, but think of reclamations, which is, you know, grinding up the entire pavement section and starting fresh. that's about twice as costly as a milling overlay. So, we want to try to get those milling overlays prioritized in the plan, which I think we've done a really good job of doing. Um, but if you let those streets go, you know, see you start getting into the mid20s is kind of what we're seeing and they start to flip and go to the reclaim. So, then you're automatically spending twice as much money um just by letting things slip a few years. So that that's really, you know, pushing those millions has has been key to our plan. So with that being said, um as I mentioned, we've been in Carver Bluffs a few years now and we really have two years left um down in that area based on the plan. The area that I show in red is what we're proposing for 2026 and that includes um a combination of reclamations and villain overlays based on um the street ratings and what we're seeing in the field. So uh Ramsey uh excuse me, Ridgerest is a is a reclamation and then you can see some of those other streets there um as overlays. So that's um the general intent in the Carver Bluffs neighborhood. Um, looking just out to 27, you can see those final streets in green. That would be what would be done in 27 and then we'd be we'd be out of there for a while. >> Did you prioritize any of these since the last time we talked? >> I just I seem to recall Carver Creek Place was in 27. >> Um, we we rep prioritized this summer. Um, I don't remember that one in particular. I know that that one piece of Harbor Creek Place went to a reclamation >> based on what we received and then Overlook Drive shifted to 27 based on what we think will be an adjacent project on the county road intersection improvements associated with with the future summer field development. So, um we feel that would tie together nicely get that piece done at the same time. So, does that answer your question? >> Okay. >> Um, in addition, so this is all local street maintenance funding. We're looking at doing a Fox Seal on White Pine Way Trail. Um, that's west of Jonathan Parkway. That trail is about four years old now. So, we get that sealed up. And then as in all program years, we always preserve $35,000 just for general patching, other issues that come up throughout the year. And that will be reflected in the cash flow summary um at the end of the presentation. >> Okay, good over there. Keep going. Okay. Um and jump into the city streets on that and that program we're looking at doing road in 206 and that that's all with state aid funding and that would be that whole stretch it would be a reclamation project. Um the existing trail is in pretty rough shape so we'd be looking at to replace that trail in conjunction with the project. And then one piece we wanted to talk about in the next slide was possible trail connection from Lionsport down to Old Harbor Road. So there's a little bit of a gap in the trail system that I'll show you here in a little bit. And then also looking at the intersection improvements at Old Harbor Road itself. Uh lastly, um all the trails that were redone with the Jonathan Carver Parkway project two years ago, we're looking at doing five ceiling on those trails as well, which will seal those up and put those in good shape for a number of years to come. >> Erin, can I ask a quick question on Mount Hope Road because that's a pretty heavily traveled road. How long do you think that reclaim like how long will that road be down >> for construction? >> Yeah. Oh, that'll be that'll probably be a couple months at least. It'll be a pretty substantial project, >> but it's not a whole. >> Um, I guess we haven't gotten that far. I I haven't thought about that to be honest with you. >> Courtney, what was your question? >> My question was if it was going to be a full closure because >> Okay, overlays and >> traditionally we have um again, I haven't really thought about that. there's a detour route that would make sense. It would make it a lot quicker and less painful, but we'll have to see. There's direct access for some residents on there. So, >> yeah. >> Okay. I I've heard a lot of people who live off Mount Hope who are excited to have the road redone, but then the next question that we're going to get is, well, how long's it going to be closed down? So, >> yeah, >> it'll be extensive. Okay. It's it's probably gonna end up being a road closed to through traffic similar to what we do on all the other reclamations just because of the residential access needs. So, >> but a couple months is probably safe to tell people. >> Yeah, I would say it's going to it's going to be a couple months at least just with the trail work and you know concrete replacements that sort of stuff that that all takes time. >> Okay. Thank you. get with the weather dependent, right? They say problems weather >> dependent. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Um, but not a hard closure. It's we always have to provide access to the residents that need to access it to get to their homes. It's going to be closed to through traffic for the entire project. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, talking a little bit about that trail connection. Um, this is a picture looking south going down the hill just south of the Lions Park. You can see here um there's a narrow boulevard on our right hand side of the screen. Um, not really room to put a trail there today with the retaining wall. And then also on the left side of the screen, which is more of where the the residential driveways are and such, there's some definite grade complications with tying into driveways and cross slopes and those sorts of things. So, it's there's a lot to think about here, but I think it is an important gap in the trail network that the council should consider. Um it's it's one of the routes that we show on our master trail plan, but unfortunately it's an on street piece from from the Lions Park down to downtown essentially. So um talked about some of the challenges. Uh I think one of the biggest challenges is right now it's really not part of the funding plan for the project. Um it's it is one that we previously did include in the LRIP application in 2023. So that's the local room improvement program. We were unsuccessful in that cycle. Um but the council is going to be seeing us bring forth another application this fall essentially for the same um project scopes. But that would be a way to fund that trail piece. Otherwise, there would have to be a different sort of funding plan that would need to be considered. um by the council to make that happen. Kind of rough, you know, back of the napkin type estimate I put together last week. I'm thinking it's probably a4 to $500,000 issue to make that happen. >> How much does it have to be widened to accommodate that? >> Um it probably be widened probably eight or nine feet on the on the retaining wall side. So that either that retaining well would have to move back or you'd have to basically put it on the other side of the road kind of like what we did on Sixth Street where it'd be behind the back of the curb but then you're tying into all the driveways and there could be weird know tie in slopes and that sort of stuff. So >> So your estimate is for moving the retaining wall. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. And if you drive up Mount Hope on the left where this is the retaining wall dives into a private property and then their driveway exists. So it's complicated. I mean it's not just pushing the retaining wall back. You'd have to design a way to tie in to that driveway grading etc. So it's it's more than just moving the retaining wall back similar to what we did on In some areas, this is a a whole another kettle of fish as my dad would say that wall city. >> It's in the it's in the running way. Yeah. Um and yes, a large part of it is kind of behind the park. So, we have we have a lot of the room that we need to do it just on city property, but as Brent mentioned, there definitely would be some temporary easements needed from residential properties um and those sorts of things. So, it's it's a complicated issue, but we wanted to bring it up and kind of get direction from the council on is this worth exploring or is this is this not going to happen at this time. So that would be issue number one in particular that I wanted to bring up. And then issue numberhead. >> Okay. Um when I know that we have some trail minimum widths that we def you know generally go by. Uh that's kind of when we're putting in new developments so that obviously we have space there because we're just designing it. Will we or I hope we'll consider that maybe we don't meet that minimum. maybe it's only 6 feet rather than 8 ft or whatever it comes out to be. Um because we are retrofitting it into kind of a tight area. So I know there'll be more to come. Um, but this might be, from my opinion, this might be a spot where we have to um let go of some of that minimum trail sizing if we're going to consider this a a actual trail that we may not be able to fit that huge width in there that we do when we put in new developments or some of our um other linking trails. >> Does that change anything though? >> I'm sorry. What was that, Eric? Could you say that again? >> This might We have to check on this, but we are getting state aid funding on this road. So, our plan is going to have to comply with state aid rules. So, generally, I would support that concept, council member Conrad. But on this one, we're not going to be able to go below minimum standards because we're using that state aid funding. So, >> sure. Uh just it's going to be a non-starter because we'll send those plan that plan to be reviewed by the state aid team and they'll flag it and send it back to us. >> Okay. All right. For sure. All right. Thank you. >> It was a similar situation. Basically state aid standards are 8 foot minimum with two foot clear zones. So those walls on six are about 12 feet is really the minimum that they would allow. Should we discuss this? Yeah, we can. >> Um, for me, this is really important. This feels like this is a huge gap in our trail system, especially like in the downtown area. I think it's one of the last remaining gaps, maybe short of kind of heading out of town um by the bluffs. And I think that this is really important. I would hate to see us put any money into Mount Hope Road without figuring out this trail and at least saving room for it. Um the numbers are big for a what would it be lock trail. Um but I think that this is really important to have trail connection for downtown. Yeah, Courtney, I I'm sorry. There's a little lag, so I don't want to if I'm jumping over people. Um, I agree. So, this is one of our really like kind of the last gaps here and we've talked about it for the last, you know, how many 20 years, but and because it is such a big project and because that retaining wall is so massive that how and when was the right time to get this done? That is a a very steep incline on that hill and I see kids on bikes and things coming up and down that and I'm fearful that there's going to be an accident and I can't believe that there hasn't been one yet. So I agree. I'd like to see how the numbers shake out of course and what happens with that because we obviously have to pay attention to it because it's a it's going to be a large amount um and how it comes in and hopefully we can find the funding you know outside funding for it as well. But I agree with you, Courtney. This is to me a very important gap that we have, especially for safety reasons, not just for um modal reasons to get people, you know, I want to go up and down the hill, but just for safety on mine is a big one. >> So, the mechanics of doing this, you did some napkin calculations. Do you have confidence it can be done in that price range? Is there a limit to where we say this is really important, but if it's going to be 800,000, we just can't do it? I'm asking council to on that. What What's the the limit if if it takes more than this? I just you mentioned property concerns, rightway concerns. >> Um, >> yeah. What I did is I looked at the pricing that we got on Six Street because those were similar walls. will say when we had some issues trying back into you know into the woods behind it and stuff. So I I used that I put an inflationary factor on there just did some rough I literally assumed a 12t average height wall times 1,000 ft and just did that sort of calculation through the through the trail area on there and that was about it. So, it it was it's pretty rough what I did, but I'm just saying ballpark. It's >> maybe I misheard you. Do we have to get some concession for property owners there? >> Yeah, I mean, we're going to need temp easement for sure. If not, I don't I don't know what that dynamic will look like tied in the wall to the private property as Brent mentioned where that public versus private cut off would go. But at least um there will be some temporary easements at a minimum to make this happen. >> I don't there could be. Yeah, it really depends on again where where does our city wall end and where does their private wall start. >> And that's that's my only concern is I agree. I agree for the need of this. I know it's a big gap. It's a big hole in the trail system. I completely agree. I just don't want to find out that we have a million dollar project that's out of scope. It >> looks like you can because you have something to say. Go ahead. >> I don't want to keep turning. That is the LI application that Erin mentioned, you know, that has a a huge trail project in it too to connect to the bluffs. So, you're not like based on how we've applied for it, would that service both of those trails, this one and that one? >> Yeah. No, there's still a gap like >> that's funding plan. >> That's what I understood it. So, the LI will not fund this. So, and you don't have to decide that tonight, but if you based on what I understand of our finan finance, the council have to be able to or want to support $500,000 worth of bonding to get that trail done. there's not a you you know the the um street or the pavement management plan or the street maintenance fund uh doesn't have the capacity doesn't contemplate this trail uh you uh I don't believe we could use park dedication um so the um you could do a you could do bonding or you could do an inter fund loan from an enterprise fund but in order to kind of commit to that it would be kind of a new source of funds. And I'm not trying to um dissuade you, but the that's the biggest piece when we started kind of preparing for this and that this is a special call out and all the the things that the council has said I would not that you're looking for my advice on that, but I think they're completely accurate. People use that section. um the alternatives it you know is going through Lions Park but as you know people always take the most direct access and that's not it. So um but it if you want to think about that and you know discuss it at a later work session but moving forward with this section would require a funding plan to accommodate it. There isn't a a readymade grant application that funds this. Um, state aid can only be used for streets and not for trails. >> Well, this it can be used for trails, but the state aid that we have access to just funds this project. >> So, like we only get we get X amount per year. And so what we're getting is able to fund what we have. >> Dip a little in negative into state aid, but that's >> we can borrow ahead. Um that would be the only thing >> we might be in a position where we might need to do that just on the meat and potatoes of this but we um we get about 400,000 a year. >> Yeah. >> So we you know you know that that'd be an alternative as well. you know, just depends on um where you go with that because that it's also been viewed as an alternative on the former CASA 40 project is that if we don't get LI funding for that, which is competitive that in order to decrease our reliance on bond issuance that we would use because that's a state aid route, we would use state aid funding for that. So, um, looking at kind of the street, curb, gutter, that kind of as the meat potatoes and the trails as something different, but again, you set the strategy and the priorities and we'll go out and get it for you. >> Go ahead, Christie. >> Um, so in the presentation, number three says that it's proposed for inclusion in the grant application. So, I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. So, is any of the grant application able to be applied toward this? I mean, is it partial funding? Is it if it's included in the grant application? I'm just confused as to why there wouldn't be any funding for this trail. It's included in the application, but if you kind of add up all the sources and uses even with a grant applica, even with a successful grant, you wouldn't have enough sources of revenue to fund the entirety of the ask. >> Okay. So we included it in there but they'll like so if uh I think the grant application is for a million one and a half million but let's say the total cost of this project is 3 million and that includes Mount Hope and old 40 and the trails. So uh and we have a million from uh the county. I'm just dealing with round numbers for the sake of conversation. you might have anywhere from 500,000 to a million to like cover what wasn't covered by the county, what wasn't covered by state aid and the LI. We don't know what that number is, but we were offering to plan for the worst to hope for the best. And so I guess I'm looking for like a a flavor from the council on is this trail only going to happen if we get grant funding for it and then like in what order you know do you want that to occur and again this is just the first of probably several discussions. >> Okay. So when I was looking at that, so when I was reading this um before the meeting being that it was included included in the grant application, that made me really like yes, like obviously yes, let's do that if we could get the majority of the money. But now looking at it and saying that we it probably won't cover it. This is a big chunk um as compared to I guess what I was thinking which is why we have work sessions, right? So we can go through all this. But I was thinking that more of it was going to be able to be or most more likely to be able to be funded by that grant. Um I guess for that for numbers that are getting that big I I don't know. I'll let the rest of the council ch you know chime in on what they their thoughts are. >> Still not really clear what's the what we put in the grant application. >> M road. Okay. So, they didn't put anything in the grant yet because you get to choose ultimately what it is. It's it's due in December. >> Okay. >> But what we did last time, it was the Main Street West Trail. >> Okay. >> Going all the way out to JCP. >> It was the intersection at Broadway and at Main Street West. Okay. It was intersection at KC's and it was this piece of trail and it was >> feels like a $4 million project that we're asking for >> and it was the piece going out of town on on road on six more. It was literally all of it. >> Okay. And the maximum of this grant is 1.5 >> 1.5. And that so that funding plan included regional solicitation of $2.5 million which was also unsuccessful in the last cycle. >> So a $2.5 million grant and $1.5 million >> and a 1.5 L and then the $1 million that we already had from the it was like a $5 million project. Okay. >> At the end of the day for all of that stuff >> and $5 million with state aid get us there for all of that stuff. >> I guess I guess what I'm worried about is like let's be reasonable like if we have to chunk this down phase it like let's not ask for a 1.2 million grant on a project. Let's like really make sure I I still think that this is important. I also consider still consider continue to be dazzled by how expensive it is for again a four three four block section of trail but this is important and it's been a priority to tie up these trail gaps for a while. So um I had two things um well I guess probably three. So, first um I would support um if we had a bond for the estimated cost, I would support the city um contributing for that because to me, yes, we all recognize it as a gap in our trails. U my uh second thing is if it hasn't already been decided if the trail would go like the way traffic flows north or traffic flow south, I would just like to know like the pros and cons. Um and then understanding how um the grants have contingencies, you know, like the width or you know, bike trail or no bike trail. I would like to see if we're unsuccessful with a grant or we don't put it in a grant, what would it cost for the city, but knowing that we have a little more flexibility in that we wouldn't have to um do their standards. We still have to the the standards aren't contingent upon the grant because we get a a state contribution for our entire system and Mount Hope is in that system. So the standards never relinquish. They're always going to be there. Um and the trail wouldn't have like a it would be on the east or west side of the street off so it doesn't really flow with traffic. It's just it goes both directions. I think I would know why that's >> just conflict with driveways and tie in for grades etc. There's uh power lines on that side as well which we all >> cross it. Okay. >> You said it would go on the west >> west. >> Okay. All right. So that's already figured out. Um >> we also just one more we also talked about could we go on top of the the retaining wall. So, we we're exploring options. We know that we have more work to do. We can uh I I think, you know, if it's okay with the council, we I think we're taking in that it's important to the council like this and we'll keep kind of tinkering with it, but we don't you don't have to land on an answer. This is just kind of a project preview. We're going to do uh neighborhood meetings in the Mount Hope and the Carver Bluffs neighborhoods. So, this is, you know, exactly what we needed, but don't feel like you have to land a plane on like how we're going to do this and how it's going to be funded. I just we just want to kind of get this is kind of the big or section of >> right challenge like the state could do it without taking that money or it just doesn't work that way only because I realize like with the bike trail that came with the grant but what if we would have been like oh we really on six street we don't want the bike trail why >> yeah we we can't negotiate state aid it's just it's either in or it's I never want to say like no to grant money, but >> well, it says no grant money. >> That's a direct allocation we get for being a community over 5,000 people for to maintain uh major roadway sections through our community. So, Sixth Street, Mount Hope Road, Main Street West, we they park a third where the bridge is, right? Um, that one's a little different, but you know, think of like kind of like >> Okay. >> Y safety standard, but >> I take away it's an important section. Let's see what we can do to like one construct it efficiently and two what our and clarify what our funding approaches could be. >> Um yeah, >> I understand the importance of this trail gap. I've walked it many times and I've heard people downtown complain about it, but I'm deeply deeply concerned about the cost, especially with the big projects that we have coming up or theoretically coming up. Um this is just again more money coming from our budget and um it's that's a lot of money for a very short section. >> That's mine. >> Okay, I think we're good on this. >> Okay, >> thank you. >> We'll continue that. Okay, so I mentioned the intersection at Old Carver Road in Mount Hope. This was the one that was um kind of front of mind in the visioning study that we completed as part of the turnback of the sophomore e. So now that that's city street, we have the ability to do things that we want with it. And as a result of that study, there was a concept developed that looked like what you see on the screen today. And basically what that did is it removes the large skew angle of mount hope. So, think of looking all the way around your left shoulder as you approach Old Car Road and trying to see if traffic's coming over your left shoulder. That's what we're really trying to to get away from. Um, obviously a huge safety issue. So, what it would be doing is it would be squaring up that intersection. Um, in addition on the Casey side, so opposite there's two entrances entrances that are very close together and it would be making that more of a conventional four-legged intersection. Um, this is kind of what we've done the gateway to downtown. So, one of our gateways into the city. Uh, speed control is a big factor here. So, really narrowing down that typical section. uh maybe adding some concrete pavement to to make it feel tight, make it feel like you're really entering a city and getting people to slow down. So, those are all some of the goals of the intersection improvement. Um again, there's complications with this one as well. Um, first and foremost, the the property to the I guess in the northwest quadrant, there'll be some easements that will likely be necessary to make that happen. So, uh, we haven't we haven't done all of our research at the county yet to see if there's any existing rights there, but there might be some easements needed to build that road um, as it's currently proposed. So um again this was another piece of the LI that was previously applied for as I just mentioned. So the goal again I believe would be to include this unless the council wants to go a different direction. But that would be one source of funds for that. Otherwise, depending on how many things we do here, again, we're looking in that half million dollar range, maybe upwards of 750 depending on kind of final aesthetic treatments and such. So, >> I just to clarify, this only happens if we get the LI money. So, we're not you're not including this in the street maintenance project. >> Okay. >> So, the what we're this is just kind of a preview. We just thought it would be important to talk about this because we're doing the work on Mount Hope Road. We're not offering to include this at all. It's this is a I would say a separate discussion topic from the trail. But oftentimes, as you know, when we do projects and we do a fresh mill and overlay and then if we happen to get the grant in 2026 or 27, then folks might be saying, "Hey, you just ripped up a street that you were working on." So, we're just providing you with kind of the full view of what the future of this intersection looks like, but it's really a to be determined. >> Good point. I I would say if we would get the funding then we could roll it into the project, but yeah, it's a separate issue, but one that is good for the council to see if you get questions about it. So, okay, I'll pause there. >> I have one question. um where that number two circle is um not so much the pavement or my question isn't but when you enter in would that be a oneway and then um north that white car going out would that be a oneway? >> No. No one cities are saying two-way circulation there. >> Two-way circulation. Go ahead. >> Courtney, did you say go ahead? >> I did. Yep. Okay. Uh, I have a couple questions. So, one is, you know, we're coming in through Depot Park, but that's also Casey's parking lot. Correct. On that end, they own that property. Um, is that correct? So, where the new entrance, I guess, by depot park would be coming in. Do we have issues with Casey's like we have to get property for them or do they have to agree to that reconfiguration? How does that work? Yeah, we could have a conversation with them. I I think what we show there is actually going through park. [Music] >> GIS website and it looks like uh Casey's lot ends at the end of their parking lot on northish side. >> Task force for the project and Casey's was part of that. The man was in that. >> Sorry Erin, I didn't catch that. Aaron Smith is sharing that Casey's was a part of the concept development for this so they're aware that this would be coming eventually. >> Okay. Okay. U perfect. And then my other question is when I'm looking at all of these estimated costs and these asks, are we asking for too much? Are we hurting ourselves from getting anything? Or can will they peacemeal it? Will they is it all or nothing? Because if we're and I don't know what a typical ask to this is if this is kind of in the range of what other cities do or if it just runs such a huge gamut you there's no kind of average but I just want to make sure that we're not hurting ourselves in these grants too by asking for more than we think is available or possible and then we get nothing or again can they pick and choose inside the grant? Well, they they can fund at varying levels, but based on conversations we've had with their team, like this type of improvement makes our grant or makes our request more competitive because it fixes a safety issue. Now they pro like they probably would fund some of the aesthetic for the aesthetic treatments but the actual geometry or reconfiguration of the geometry of the intersection is >> is chapter inverse for the kind of uh funding that they want to have. So you know and that was one of the conversations we've had internally is that we we don't want to separate this intersection or frankly the Broadway and main intersection. We don't want to remove that from the LI application because it would make our application less competitive because we're not correcting safety issues at intersections. So, it's actually um the reverse of kind of maybe what it looks like on its face. Yes, the aesthetic treatments are going to be a local chair, but the actual kind of brick and mortar or the geometry of the intersection is exactly what we want to have in there. Okay. So, then another question because we're talking about the I want to make sure the right spot the Main Street and Broadway one that's down by down by the public utilities building. Um, is that included in this grant? Because I don't feel like we landed on what that intersection should look like. Well, the we're not so that grant is coming to the council later on this year, but the council did adopt the master plan for that intersection alignment previously. So, you're welcome to change it, but it has been um approved by the council in some way, but it can be changed. >> Let's take a look at the grant application in a day. Should we focus our conversation just on this intersection for the time being? the council's prerogative. >> In the interest of time, let's focus it on just what's in the presentation if that's okay, Christie. >> Yeah, I'm just gonna say because I I love this intersection. My last comments, I love this intersection reconfiguration here by Casey's. I think it makes sense and it's good. I am not in favor of the way it's configured down by the getaway and the public utilities building. So, thank you. >> Thanks, Eric. >> So, we talked about this. I mean, I remember this conversation as Brent says, it fixes a safety issue. Um, and it bolsters our ask. So, I'm I'm absolutely for this as long as it fits into the LI request. Yeah, for sure. >> And again, the LI is going to come to you later this fall. I think we're going is it October 20 [Music] >> later this month. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that this um looks good. I I am trusting you guys on your grant application uh proess. I have do not have you know it's a complicated thing and the strategy is hard. So um if you say this should be in there great. Um, I think it makes sense to include it. Also, knowing that we have Mount Hope Road be under construction next year. It would be nice if we could get that grant this year and be able to do all of that at once. >> And I think the frankly the number one thing that's hurting us is we got the same funding for Sixth Street West like less than five years ago. >> So, or maybe less than three years ago, frankly. So, um, but we do think we have a good project. Um, so we just wanted to show you the relationship between the two. So, um, yeah, last last cycle we missed by two spots. So, it was it was really competitive last time. >> Yeah, that was coming fresh off of the sixth street application. So, >> still feeling good about where Texas. >> I like this. I think this is great. I like the idea of safety of course, but I also like the idea of objects so slowing down traffic because it's coming into our community. Um, that said, it was either or. And I I'm not getting the impression that it is. I still like the trail better. I guess my question is do we have to because I'm thinking of again kind of what you spoke about the optics of doing a project completing a project let's say we do hope and then being able to do this two years later in the optics our residents don't love tearing up anything fresh concrete fresh asphalt you name it do we have to complete Mount Hope end to end of the state aid route or can we stop at Fifth Street East or can we stop at Lions Park knowing that we're holding out for that trail addition or that those intersection improvements, but we don't have a line for yet? >> Yeah, you can segment it if you want. >> That's completely our project in our pavement management plan. So, you can do anything you want there. not not ideal, but I think again like and maybe the maybe the trail can go in when we've got the funding figured out at a later date, but like clearly it would make more sense to do construction on all of in one construction season. >> We'll do the Can you go to open house slides? >> Yeah, we'll go to we'll do the open house. uh well this month and then we'll report back to you in November with what we've learned and then we can kind of dig into this a little bit more. But we understand what some of the pinch points are and we'll come back to you with some more information. >> The lower half be conducive to waiting to complete that part until later on. I know we're getting close to the break point on >> we're already assuming so. >> Okay. So, it doesn't change doesn't matter. >> Okay. >> But it's still it's not in great shape. >> No, I mean it's how long you're willing to take those sorts of things too. So, understood. Thank you. I think road got kicked a couple of years previously and I know that those folks were >> okay. So next steps obviously we got a lot of your feedback tonight. We'll be bringing this back to council again this fall. We'll kind of talk to you those specifics. We'll probably have some more refined information for you to review. Um at which point you can authorize the preparation of plans and specs and we'll start getting work on that. Um this fall we want to get the survey work done, get the soil boardings in the road done so we can use all that information this winter as we design the project and then ultimately looking to get it in spring. So that is where things sit for possible next steps. >> Any questions? >> Okay. Thank you. >> Do you need anything else from us? >> No, that was a great discussion. Appreciate it. >> Awesome. Okay. Let's move on to the water meter presentation. Should be Mr. Simmons. You don't have to say whatever I want. Sounds like >> nope. Um, so thank you um for letting us present this uh project proposal. Um, and just giving you a little bit more information about what is AMI. Tonight we have um Dan Moore here from Core Main. he is the specialist um and so he will just talk briefly because we could probably talk hours about this technology as um it's not just utility billing that uses it is used all over the globe different kinds of um electricity all different types of utility so with that I will introduce Dan Moore from to give us a little bit of information about AMI >> welcome Yeah, >> so no pressure, Dan. Our city council meeting um begins at 7 o'clock. We generally break from 6:50 until 7 again. Like no pressure. You've got a half an hour, but if we need, we might pause >> maybe the discussion and then pick it back up during our good. I was only expecting 10 minutes. So >> um expecting four hours. >> It could go either way. Um, no. I'm just here to kind of explain it a little bit and answer any questions you guys might have and um just kind of let you know what we're working towards. Um, so >> I might not know how to do it either. Um, and at the same time, I'll just breeze through most of these. Um, my information is here. You can get it. I can get you a card or from L or whoever if we need to. Um >> I'm jumping ahead because I didn't think it was working. So there you go. >> Yeah. No, it's fine. This little information, the company that I work for is called Corn Main. We're distributor of Census Water metering products. Um we don't need to go into heavy detail on that meat and potatoes of it. Uh what we're hoping to cover today, what is AMI? Advanced metering infrastructure. Um what you have right now is what we call a walk by driveby system. Um the advanced metering infrastructure. Um you put an antenna on a tower on a on an asset and it communicates with your water meters and other devices out in the system in real time and brings you, you know, hourly reads and data. um versus how you do it now is you know nothing other than once a month you go out and you get your reads. So um most commonly what happens is you know you'll have a customer that's got a toilet leaking or they forget their garden hose on or whatever the case may be. Um and because you don't have that data, you're not monitoring it, we don't know that until now a month has gone by and they've gone through how many thousand PS of water. Um there are a lot of advantages to it. Um you know, saving time for your your people that go out and do the reads. Um being more proactive, having the data, having the reports. Um like I said, I could talk for a long time about it. It's it's hard to monetize those benefits. Um, a lot of times when finance people look at this system and they want to justify it with dollars and cents and say, "Okay, well this is, you know, we pay Joe x amount of dollars per hour. It takes him this many hours to read." And you know, so they kind of say, "Okay, well this is what it costs us to read meters versus this is what the AMI system costs." It's tough to compare them that way because there's so many benefits to the AMI system that it that are hard to monetize and say, "Yes, it's a benefit, but what is that worth in dollars and cents?" Um, I think, you know, in talking to cities that have it, um, you know, you'll find that it it it's justifiable. It's it's it's needed. It's a it's a great benefit to the city, um, for many reasons. And um like I said, there are a lot of benefits that come along with it. Um aside from just customer service and um streamlining your people that are already, you know, uh spread pretty thin. Um there there's a lot a lot more you can do with it beyond reading water meters as well. um you get um you know alarms, alerts and alarms for leaks and things like that, reports. Um two-way communication. So there's um things you can do aside, like I said, aside from just reading water meters, um we can actually shut certain ones off. Um we can we can send firmware updates and a lot of things like that. um some of the other cities around you that that are already utilizing AMI um Andover, Buffalo, Blaine, Big Lake, Columbia Heights, Crystal, Dayton, Delano, Egan, Burnsville, Elk River, Hector, Hutchinson, Lake Elmo, Lbury. You guys can read them. I don't have to read them all off, but um you can see large and small. I mean, we've got cities with uh 200 250 accounts that are on AMI. Um, obviously the larger the city, uh, the more return on investment you're going to get, but also it it costs more because it's, you know, based off of the size of the city as well too. But, um, timeline for implementation, we could have the antennas on your tower very quickly, 6, eight weeks. uh that that the hardware side of it doesn't take long. Um you know in about the same amount of time have it um integrated and implemented as well. You do have um a good number of older radios in your system that are not AMI compatible. Um, so that's kind of the other piece to this puzzle is we're looking to upgrade um those older radios that aren't compatible nearing the end of their life um to get them so they are AMI compatible so that when we up they will be included in your system as well. So we don't have to kind of have two systems and you know some of it's AMI, some of it you're still reading walk by drive by. Um, obviously you'd want you'd want everything on AMI. Um, but in in terms of a timetable, it kind of just depends on how you go about the installation process of getting those old radios updated. Um, another benefit to the AMI system, uh, you would have access to what they call a customer portal. Um, which Lyn and these guys have kind of asked about a little bit. And a customer portal is essentially where the homeowners once you have this data flowing in um and you have got access to it. Uh a customer portal would allow the the residents to uh actually go in and and see their usage and monitor their usage as well. um they would also be able to receive uh alerts and alarms and obviously there's a lot you know you can scale that customer portal with what what you want it to be able to do um online bill pay and things like that are part of it and we can get into that stuff at a different time but um just so you know that with the AMI uh technology customer portal is um something that would be available with that a little bit about the water meter. This is our residential water meter that you guys are already currently using and looking to upgrade more and more to. It's just a more advanced meter than your um traditional uh positive displacement mechanical meters. Uh this is an electromag meter, so it's it's uh much more accurate, sensitive. Um, I guess the biggest thing with this is it offers the alerts and the alarms and the things that you're all the bells and whistles that you're looking for. Um, and at the same time kind of maximizes your revenue um because of its accuracy and uh lowflow capabilities which is where a lot of the the usage residential usage is and a lot of it gets missed there. your uh really maximizing your revenue by upgrading to a a newer style meter like this. This is a chart on the uh alarms that are cap that the meter is capable of. We don't need to go through all of that right now. Um this is a newer >> I had a question that it says low battery detected. Do these have batteries that the consumer that our residents had went on would have to change regularly? >> No, they're not they're not changeable. Um they're not field replaceable batteries. Um basically that's the the batter is essentially the life of the meter. Um and the the all of our meters and radios and everything have a uh 20-year warranty 15 and five. So 15ear full replacement, fiveyear prorated warranty. Um the battery that's in the water meter is actually um the manufacturer of the battery considers it like a 28 or a 29year battery. Census warranties the the entire device and the accuracy of that device for 20 years. So you can expect 20 plus um years of of life out of it. Any other questions? I'm moving fast because I'm trying to >> question. So after six years that you can replace it roughly what would a prorrated >> after 6 years? >> Yeah. >> Uh that would be a full replacement up until 15 years. So I guess the prorate would kick in after 15. So like years 15 to 20 is when it would be prorated. So years through 14, >> no years 1 through 15, if anything happens to that meter within the first 15 years of its life, it's full replacement. You pull it out, you give it to me, I give you a brand new one free. >> You're roughly, are we talking like $100, a thousand? >> Uh, I'd have to look at the chart. It's a percentage based off of the list price. Um, so it would be >> a ballpark number. I think you would lose uh what 20% for the next five years, something along those lines. I'd have to look at the the warranty information. I can get you that information. I don't know right off the top of my head what the how the prorating actually shakes out. Question, Krisky. >> Um as long as we're on this this uh slide, I had a question. So, I was looking at the broken pipe one. I'm just going to use this one as an example so that I um can ask the question. So, at the end it says transmitted by weekly alarm message. So, does that mean if you have a broken pipe, you don't get a message? I don't understand the weekly message. Does it come in real time? So, if my pipe breaks in an hour from now, do I get some kind of alert or how does that work? >> I think that transmitted by is um that's how census is is classifying that type of a message. But no, you would you would get that um within like 24 hours. So just like the like the customer leak alarm um you know if if that if that meter sees uh continuous flow for 24 hours and and we can actually um we can we can change it. We can kind of reconfigure some of these uh alarms as well and you can set it to like the leak alarm. you can change it. Um they're kind of customizable uh for >> okay >> when you want it to alert you and and how you want it to alert you. But no uh you would you would get that message um you know within 24 hours. >> Okay. Because to me if you're looking at a broken pipe that's a heavy water flow that's probably drowning out. Right. So >> um >> if you're getting it 24 hours later your house is already done for at that point. So that's why I was curious if it's coming in if there's like you said if there's settings or something so that there's a a more timely um alert to folks who have this in case some of these big things um you know if you have a little bit of backloor leak you know some of these may be or the low battery one are not going to be maybe high priority maybe they are but I know looking at like broken pipe you might have a big mess on your hands and then a 24-hour later notification doesn't really do you a lot of good >> right right Um, so the leak alarm I know is is 24 hours because it needs to see that that low flow um for an extended for an extended period to know that it's a leak um as opposed to just normal usage. Um the broken pipe one I think I'll have to look a little bit more into there's so many alarms I don't I don't know them all inside and out. I'll have to look at it a little bit closer, but um it may depend upon um the how we have the settings set like how many gallons per minute flows through for an extended period of time. And again, those are kind of customizable. Do we want it, you know, x amount of gallons per minute for x amount of consecutive hours? Um some of those are are programmable. So, >> and just to be like the alarm isn't telling you that the pipe is broken. is telling you that you have usage that's consistent with a broken >> Right. Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> But you're going to see a you're going to see a like a high volume flow coming and that's why you're going to get that alarm. So, I just wanted to make sure if it's something that because if it comes out a week later, it's too late on some something like that. So, um if you could maybe get back to us on that, that would be >> great. some clarification on exactly how these alarms um work in the system and and how we can customize them as well. >> Okay. And then one more question. Um maybe I missed it. When the alarm goes, who does the alarm go to, the city or the homeowner? >> Um so through the through the software, it's set to go to the city. So we can set um uh individuals email addresses um or text messages. If you have a customer portal, it depends how that is set up. Um, but same thing, it would be email or text message depending on how you want to do that. >> That would come to the homeowner or that would go >> It would only go to the homeowner if you have customer portal, which is a separate additional >> Okay. >> widget that can be added on to your AMI system. >> Okay. So Brent, um, if we were to go with this and then I'm not I don't know who in our, you know, employee group is would be getting these messages, these alerts, what would we do? How do can we handle that? Uh, who would do that? >> That is up to you guys how the how the city decides you want to handle that. might be >> that's a Brent >> Lynn or Ashley or Mallerie depends on the name but you know um I would offer that one of the bigger flash points between residents and you can't see me well between residents in this in the city this it happen it's our leaks >> you know whether it's a toilet or someone left an outdoor faucet on And so, um, I'm not assigning a value judgment. That's up to the council. I would say that it'll give us an opportunity to reach out and we have the ability to do that prior to someone getting a, you know, 30,000galon water bill. We're trying to, you know, because our message is water used is water used. Sometimes we can do something on sewer if it's an outdoor spot. Um, but it still cost the city the same amount to treat a gallon of water, whether it's intentional or unintentional. So, um, we I would say that, uh, to your question, Council Member Conrad, we'd have to set up our own kind of protocol for how we do that, but we feel like we could. It's just a matter of we just haven't we haven't gotten that far because we don't know if this is something the council wants to invest points but >> I'm not worried about the people power it would take to implement that. >> Okay. Um so would you envision then that this is something where because again if if are they getting alerts in the evening? I mean, is this something like on call immediate or are we going to the next day like an alarm came in the next day, you know, Lynn gets here at 8 a.m. and sees we've got alarms and now she she reaches out to the homeowners or do you have any >> and again, you know, it it's kind of up to, you know, you guys in the utilities how you how you want to handle those types of things. If you want to be reaching out to people, um h how you want to handle it. But typically most cities, yeah, when they come in in the morning, they'll they'll pull up their software and they'll check um to see, you know, what what alarms they've got um and things like that periodically through the day. It's this this system is you're not getting an AMI system just so that you can have somebody sit and and watch it in case a res gets a leak. It's just that is a that is a benefit um to kind of help with the customer service part of it. Um, but every city's a little bit different on how they how they handle these alarms and what they do with them. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Yep. These are just some commercial meters. Um, you've already got all these types of meters in your system now. So, um, as I mentioned, uh, with the two-way capabilities, this is a meter. Um I don't know if you guys shut off water for for non-pairs. Um that is one ability with this meter. Um the other advantage to this meter is it's got pressure and temperature. So you could strategically place those in areas where you might want to monitor um temperature or pressure and then you would get that data as well. Um downsizing meters. um with the AMI technology uh now that we can see usage and calculate flows and all that type of stuff. Um kind of discovering that a lot of apartment buildings and and larger um services are are a lot of times oversized. Um, so they just have been saving a lot of money in recent years um by by downsizing or right sizing um applications to smaller meters. When you've got the AMI system, you can see, you know, what their usage or what their uh kind of hourly flows are, what their high flows are um to help you determine where you can uh downsize meters and and save yourself a little bit of money there. This talks about the radios. We talked about the warranty already. Um, we don't have to get super technical uh with this stuff. This talks about our network a little bit. Um, basically just showing devices in the field. Um, you know, coming up to the antenna and into the to the headend system. Um, and again, different types of uh devices that we can add on we'll talk about at the end here if we've got time. Um it is a >> sorry to interrupt but just for those watching and the council can you just describe the difference between the technology we use today and this technology from a public services technician perspective how do they use it how do we um collect meter information today and what it would look like if we used this I think that would be helpful for the council >> so um I've got some slides of what the actual software looks like. Um, and >> just from a 10,000. >> Yeah. And I think I think some of those questions will get answered um as we as we get into those slides. But essentially it's right now what you're using you're already you're using I pro water meters already. So you're already using the electromag residential meters. Um, and the newer radios, the radios that you've been installing over the last number of years are already the AMI capable radios. So, we're actually using the same hardware in the field. The water meters and the radios are the same whether you're reading them monthly and walk monthly or quarterly or whatever in walk by driveby mode versus if you have an antenna up and you're getting um hourly data from these meters. It's it's the same hardware in the field. The meters and radios are the same >> like level of effort. It's going to take maybe Andrew can help here, but it's going to take x amount of hours to do it the way we do it now or why. >> Um, >> so the big differences there um obviously right now you have to send personnel out in the field with uh a handheld device and drive the entire city and you know going slow getting reads. Um, it's a little bit of a tedious process. I mean, you can I I can sit outside of a house and I just have to wait and wait and wait and your read will pop in and then I can go on. So, it's it's a little bit timeconuming. Um, and probably what's more time consuming is after they go out and get all of the reads, they come in, pull the data into the system, then your utility billing clerk said, you see, okay, we didn't get, you know, they print out a list, we didn't get these for whatever reason. Um, >> yeah, it's about 480 hours for the guys to read annually and 200 hours for Ashley to load and troubleshoot. And so as long as it takes to read right now, it takes probably as long or longer for them to go back and get those last stragglers that they didn't get the first time around. And it may be because a wire's broke or something needs to be repaired or they just, you know, didn't get close enough or went too fast or whatever the case may be. But getting those last, you know, that no read list is is time consuming. So, and let me add on to that. When he's talking about a wire is broke, that is the piece that goes on the outside of the house that we needed to communicate to us. And so, it could just be as simple as somebody got new signing and they didn't let us know. And so, we didn't go out there and fix that. Now, if we had the AMI with the alerts set up, it could say this home isn't communicating, ding ding ding, you know, instead of it being a month later and then we get a no read and now we've spent four hours on that one home, you know. So, So, you're being Yeah, you're being much more proactive with the system because right now, even though it's going to read, it's going to be an automated process. Um, your personnel will be able to be more proactive and see, okay, we've got this house and this house and this house that aren't communicating right now. They can go out and take care of that prior to the day that you're going to read and bill. they can do that on their own time when it's best for them. And that's where I mentioned it. It helps streamline uh all of these processes because now they can do it on their own time. They've got three or four weeks to do it. They know when when they're going to be reading. So they can have the whole system keep it working optimally so that that day when you guys want to get your reads and do your you got all of those reads because they've been monitoring it all month and keeping up on everything and and keeping everything working as opposed to working retroactively and going, "Okay, we didn't get all these reads. Now we have to go out scramble fix everything because we want to get our bills out." um it's it's just uh gives you the ability to just streamline things and be much more um proactive with your system and um use use time much more efficiently. >> So that was just kind of like an overview and I know that we're getting short on time. So if you does council want any more information would you like to ask questions? Did you want Dan to go into regular session? Um, >> can you advance to that last slide? It shows cities. >> Yep. >> Um, okay. So, this here is your prop study. This kind of just shows Carver and your coverage slide you were looking for. This is all soft. >> Here's a slide. >> Yep. So these are peer um cities that we often compare a lot of our um key points to um our key point indicators. And this I have the population, the city and then um what vendor they use. I added um additional uh cities that Dana provided as well. And um Ashley did ask additional questions to some of these cities. So if you're if you're curious, I can also get back to you those questions. >> Just a quick general question. So technology can become obsolete prematurely because there's some proprietary piece of supported software portal and the company that does that ceases to exist. In this kind of system, how much of it do we own and can we just carry on forward without some proprietary portal? Um well, I guess what would be pri proprietary here would be the census um the actual software that you use to read this. So you're going to depend on census for that. Um but I mean if if census went away or if something were to happen to that I mean a large portion of the country would be in the same shoes as you guys. So I I obviously I don't I'm crystal ball but I wouldn't anticipate that happening. Um, not only that, but they they try to be very good at being backwards, >> meaning as the technology advances and progresses, they they try to keep the legacy stuff working with the the new technology as long as they possibly can. But >> yeah, thank you. >> My question is for Andrew actually. What percentage of our members need to be updated in order for this system to work? >> I don't know the percentage, but I think it's was around 800 or 500. It's 500 >> meters and 850 MSUs. >> We m them all. >> Okay. >> Based on the information that the Andy gave us. >> Did you say 500 meters and 8 month 850 MXUS? And some of those the NXUs aren't the most. >> So you've got a water meter and then you've got a radio and the radio actually is what communicates with the tower. >> So more radios need to be updated than actual. >> Yeah. >> And then um I know they have lives on them. Are they are those meters that we're discussing and those radio units that we're discussing are they coming up on the end of their useful lives anyway? about when would we expect those to have be have to be replaced as it stands right now? >> No, I understand that. But, you know, do we have >> five years of expected useful life? >> This is kind of like the road and trail situation. If you're going to do one, you might as well do the other. So, if we're gonna have to replace these meters anyways because they're dying >> and we're not getting as accurate flows on them as we should and we are going to upgrade those meters to this new technology, we might as well use this technology. >> Yeah, I I I understand that. >> When did you do the original wizard? >> That's what you're looking for is a year and I don't think I can provide you with that. Okay, but I can look into it. >> Okay, that would be great. I'm just curious like you know do we have five years of useful life on those meters that are still out there or do we have a decade >> or have they gone past >> yeah or I'll record that for you. Yeah. >> Thank you Christie. Anything from you. >> Oh good you're shaking your head now. So I just want to make sure I understand this. So we would need 500 meters 850 radios two base stations. That's what we need to convert over. And then if we want to make it so that me as the customer, as the resident can see if I need to yell at my partner to start taking shorter showers, >> we need to be part of this customer portal. That's an additional >> if you want to have access to that hourly data. >> Yes, that's what >> it's getting to be more and more. It used to be um well, I take that back. I got I was thinking two different things. It used to be that we had a smaller percentage of customer participation within the portals which is gaining traction now. Um as far as how many I don't know the percentage of the ones that have customer portal. I can I can do some checking around but I know um that it's becoming much more popular as the technology is getting better. um the cities are finding out about it and the AMI is not new new but relatively new and so a lot of our customers that have been on AMI for many years are are now bringing the additional you know the portal and stuff like that on kind of adopting that later on now that they're now that they've got their feet in the water with the rest of it and they've got their system established now they're starting to to add customer portals on >> um we're coming close to time I I think we've given you a list of >> if you know any more question you can >> and you don't get to answer those. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Um we have a couple items on the work session agenda that I would like to vote meeting. Um and then I would entertain a motion to adjourn session. >> I'll make a motion to adjourn. Thank you. I'll second. Uh, we got a motion from council member Pasco and a second from council member Ser. All those in favor say I. >> I. We need to do a roll call. >> We sure do. >> Council member Pasco. >> I. >> Council member S. >> Hi. >> Council member Pchment. >> I. >> Council member Conrad. >> I. >> Mayor Johnson. >> I. Motion passes. We are journ session. Great. Good evening everybody who joined us tonight. Um, you just