anticipation and the Joy or the total Destruction of I made my first grader do that this morning watch the TV yeah cuz we didn't find out until they were already asleep last night so he woke up this morning and I flipped on the news and it was on the Seas and we're in the mountains School District so I said I don't know if you're going to have school there it's pretty cold but you better watch there were so many clothing took like 20 minutes to get from C to M and he was like when is it going to be here like like you can do you can figure that out it's alphabetical order let's let's go exactly we how are you I'm all right where were you you're all can um I'm getting my vitamin D from an artificial Source oh good for you whatever it takes you know plain or what yeah exactly it's no when I lived in Germany when you went in for your like when you went to the gym for your workout they would always ask you sun or no sun during the winter because they all had light rooms you could do light therapy in the gym in Northern Germany what good for you cuz it just gets so darn dark up there my body didn't know what to do cuz it was 50 de outside but we were only getting 4 hours a daylight my body's like it's supposed to be below zero if it's this dark where you go Palm Beach oh it's in chany you buy a package he called Palm Beach pal Beach okay so are we flies on the wall or is there opportunity for public input during the work session I was going to talk about it at the beginning but at work sessions there isn't an opportunity for public comment so we're going to be talking about things cuz it's we don't make any decisions during work sessions we just basically get the background on information right um if you want to stay for the meeting be the opportunity to public comment at the beginning I just found a comfortable seon wasting I sat down so but I said come we just get to listen I know I'm just here to listen so we're here just to take in what they say and talk about and then we can comment later so we'll roll into the council meeting afterwards exactly we'll see you there we'll be there too Calendar's open let's do it all right it is 5:30 I will call the work session for January 21st order um let's see um just for the record um now that we're on air this is broadcast live this is tape it's available on our YouTube channel um but this is our work session and it's it's where we um do our work we don't really make any decisions at this point there are no votes that are taken um if you want to comment share thoughts and ideas with us that would be your opportunity for that is during the meeting which starts at 7:00 and we'll follow after this all right um up first city manager report Mr May uh good evening mayor and Council so had a little bit of a handful of uh updates and kind of conversation starters um prior to the end of last year I talked a little bit about uh a public works or public services project that we've been working on for a number of years uh we have a space study that was done kind of during the co period and uh expecting that this is going to be a major investment for the community at some point uh just talk to the council about engaging with a different architectural firm to kind of redo the space study if you're going to be talking about millions of dollars of investment let's make sure that the data that you get is accurate um and is current based on needs and so as we've been working on this as a group uh with members of the Public Services team um and some other City staff as we get to the tail end where we're about to you know finish it up present it to the council I just wanted to check in and see are there any expectations IE information that do you think is going to be critical um what I'm trying to avoid is um and it doesn't mean we'll Pro provide a perfect product that's not the intention um but if there are big blind spots like uh I thought this was going to have this information um we I want to make sure that we can try to grab that for you on the first piece I will say that this kind of my um view of some of the results there's it's a quite a big departure from the last study um in that uh ortel and Paul I'm going to have Paul Schultz come on this um pres the space study has put out but he said this is the most intricate detailed process he's ever been through on a space assessment and he's been through a variety of them in his 25 years um so we're talking about space needs that are quite a bit different from the last time and so um in there you'll find you know inventory of vehicles uh methodology on how they got to space needs we have space needs for what we have today what they believe that we need today and then incremental like what you need for in 20 years what you need in 30 years what you need in 50 years uh they have some generic kind of what I'd call like site plans that aren't specific to a property but show kind of uh I'd call them kind of like thick of Lego blocks this is how you could stack the Legos together to get the space that you need um and then some uh preliminary uh sculping costs so that's kind of the ingredients of that uh space study but if there are whatever those things are out there that you think well well I'm going to need to know this uh we'd like to be able to try to get that for you on the first go around so for me I think what you outlined is kind of what I'm anticipating will be getting I think three of us you're in the council we got the first space study so I think like in my mind's I I like your Lego analogy of like this is where our three ploud trucks will go you know in understanding that these are not architectural drawings but I almost kind of want to see like this is the space that we need for what we have right now then we know because of our 10-year financial plan we're going to be buying another plow truck and and I'm pulling this out of the there I don't know but in 2030 so we're going to need an additional you know whatever space for that so so that's what I'm looking for from that is kind of a number of square footage and then like the full Bild R probably size of what we're going to need in 2015 yeah so they have our in current inventory they have our 10year uh equipment plan and our 10e staffing plan so they have an idea about the bodies and the equipment um and I should add you know we're going into this with the expectation that there isn't like a project date we're starting kind of from scratch meaning like we're giving you the flexibility to do so meaning that you'll see this space study and you might say okay this works but you know we need some more Runway to like um integrate this into our long-term financial plan we can't you know change a square footage by a factor of two and then say okay we're going to build it next year um so if there's any anxiety about like when are we going to build it like you'll decide that at the time that you think is appropriate but I think what we're aiming for is can we all agree at least starting with the council then moving on to the community can you agree to the space that's needed and anticipated to be needed and then you can all kind of debate from that same sheet of music if you will um but that's our roal in any event yeah any chis thoughts um no I have a thought a question we remind me did you say it was W so wal did our original study in like 2020 um and um after some experiences that we've had recently with them and then in in Consulting with some colleagues throughout the Metro uh ortel came pretty highly recommended we actually use them uh for a space assessment uh I would say probably in 2014 2013 primarily geared towards City Hall space needs um actually the kind of the architect who was kind of the working architect on that project is now the president of ortel and he's uh we've been fortunate enough where he's leading uh the space study on this side uh for us now um answer your question um one of my two questions the other one um more of a request that it would be helpful for me to see what projects they've done for other municipalities so I don't expect them to go out to like pure cities and ask like what their spare footage is or how they use this this but if they already have it the information from projects they've done just to be able to say oh like you this is and what other Public Works Public Services have done and why right we we can do that we we've also it's a good uh comment related to other cities we do plan on kind of reach you out I have this as an example I've reached out to Shan fer and won and just asked you know how many square feet they had and when they last built they last built at ' 08 I don't remember their exact square footage off hand but you know the a bridged version is they're looking at building a whole new facility because they're busting at the seams and they're not even 20 years out from their original and that's not to say that like there's a prescribed like this is what you should build otherwise you're a fool but um there's a lot of pressure clients or like existing state what other did the Walia facility um that's an example but we'll get a background uh for you that can be um added to the main report okay that was it thank you Kayla does that put your expectations for the space j it does um I'm looking forward to seeing plans for how we can make sure that the space works for the useful life building great the only other thought that I had when you used the examples I hope to see something um it's my desire that this last for a long time so I kind of don't want to see a conservative estimate on what we need for space just knowing how quickly our community is growing I want to see like what will absolutely fit everything we have and Paul Schultz will be able to open the door and the rest of our Public Services team will be able to open the door out of the vehicles and I think that's the beauty of their process is it's to remove some bias and that they use a formula based on like it's not just the truck the truck will sometimes have a plow on it and the doors are going to need to be open and they're going to load so like it's a wing it's kind of uh providing kind of like the sometimes you'll call like the envelope it's just yeah you put the truck inside the envelope but there's a bigger space that's needed Beyond just the physical dimensions of the truck uh moving on uh I'm going to be sending out um some uh request for dates of availability so one of the things that we do every two years is kind of look at our strategic plan and goal setting for the council so looking our current city plan runs through 2026 so this would be kind of a you know it's not a full tear out in build of our existing plan but it's it could be if that's what the council wanted but it's uh what we have is designed to um kind of go over our goals give you a sense of kind of the conditions of the community from uh department heads perspective and then if there are specific goals uh within the next two years that the council has for staff or as a community that you'd like to get after that we'll set up a process for that uh We've plinary engaged with a facilitator Phil Kern uh who does a number of um projects uh throughout the Metro for goal setting and strategic planning uh he's also the city administrator in Delano um so I'll send that out uh Downtown Rescue you have a month think uh it's I'm thinking probably more like March april-ish just so um you know the council can get a rhythm and kind of get some projects but if you want to do it sooner we certainly can one of the things that I'm trying to plan for is um each of the department heads would do kind of like an environmental scan of kind of their part of the the community and I want to make sure that they have enough time to prepare that um but if there's feedback on getting it done sooner than later um no that's I'm going to be out the last week in February so we can't do that one for sure I'd love to do it sooner rather than later but I think if we're talking February March I get that we probably need staff to have some time to put some thought into their product I prefer not February right April Yeah March April is what I'm considering sooner okay you just said February so it was oh I'm sorry that's why I was confused I'm thinking March okay I'm thinking what Brent said March April uh then uh we haven't done this for I think 10 years as well that we have an application for a downtown restoration program uh Grant from the dog host it's a little unique uh in talking to Brian the owner of the dog host just because of his U experience level with kind of dealing with kind of processes and programs that we have here we had a miscommunication on you know applications and so on and so forth so I told him that I would support even they started their project and typically uh that would be kind of the deadline you wouldn't apply for a program after you've started your project they're not finished um they haven't had their final inspection and so I believe that meets the intent so I've been working with the city attorney on preparing paperwork um it's a basically it's a $2500 for forgivable Lo that has to be batched dollar for dollar which I think obviously their project exceeded well over $2,500 um so we're going to be bringing that to your February 3rd meeting uh the Fire Station construction project is moving along uh the internal part so that's the uh SCBA kind of um or not SCBA turnout gear kind of locker room will be done March 1st and then the HVAC and roof is plan to be done June 1st um we're working with two Property Owners one kind of the school district and then the other the wiener family uh um for the extension of Commerce Drive so that's the road that runs north and south past the lak view Industries uh the school district brought 20 acres for a future Transportation facility uh in that area the Wicken housers uh I believe have someone close to moving forward on an industrial development so uh we need to work with them on developing a alignment for the construction of Commerce Drive uh utilities uh Street configuration and so on and so again the City attorney and Aon Smith Ain Schmidt are working together on a uh agreement that both of those parties would uh pay the engineers office to prepare that feasibility study and so we get an understanding of costs um there could be a likelihood that they might pass the city to construct that road and then assess those costs uh back to them in some instances I believe this one would be an example too that becomes more efficient for the the city to do the project uh but in order to understand kind of the the the details of that we need to understand the cost the alignment Etc so if we are going to charge them back um over what period of time youd have to decide that you know typically it's 10 years you got as much as 20 negotiations with them so I think the city has a lot of leverage to if they want to do this we'll build it but we do on our terms so okay we'll have those discussions as we proceed with and we just have a really rough cost estimate the feasibility study Will Tell Us close to what it might be so the parties will have that information to see if they can cover it or they last the city so a helpful piece of the puzzle okay and then what do we do for funding for that how do we get the funding on our side to up front just like you would for like a reg reg like residential street project you Bond through a 429 Pro like assessment process that doesn't that doesn't tone against our that load and then whatever that cost is so let's just say you know you borrowed me aund let me $100 for air and night payback you know that we would split that cost over whatever period at no cost to you we cover the interest the engineering the um issuance costs Etc within the of the debt so we don't as a city charge additional interest for basically securing the loan for them we typically it would be it would be one usually it's one or two percentage points above what we are paying because there's cost that comes to that so the city is made whole um but um to BR I think you guys have used 2% in the past which is not uncommon I've seen that before and that usually makes makes sense and they pay it back annually on their tax assessments um okay and then the interest rate is a little more so that we're covered to make sure and they haven't formally requested that they may choose just to build it on their own sometimes people can do it a little cheaper and quicker than the city can because of all our public hearing processes Etc okay okay but if they did that we would have an agreement and our Engineers would still have to review plans and go through the artifical development process which we're used to but um for some reasons I think there's a few efficiencies that would come with the city doing it here and I know Brenton staff have been talking about that so okay we'll see where where it goes wait and see the Carver Bluffs HOA um is working on a tree removal project along carber Bluffs Parkway they have some disease trees um normally uh like if it was a smaller section we'd just go through our like a RightWay obstruction permit process which we'll probably still do we're still kind of working off the details but because of the kind of the size of it I want to have make sure the council gets a good line of sight to the project it's a major Corridor into that neighborhood there's street closure from Lely uh Bluff Park all the way up to Ramsey Avenue and just want to make sure that the communication um and coordination are up to your expectations I mentioned during a staff meeting today there's just a little bit of kind of uh experience related to this when Metronet came through the community and did their project it's not our project uh but uh residents reached out to us as kind of a first point of contact and even though the ho is involved I just want to make sure that we have good line of sight that if they're if the if they say the project is going to take one day and it lasts one week you know how were we prepared for that where is the notice out who do they contact Etc so so it's on the HOA to communicate that to everybody in the neighborhood but Ro closure well that's kind of what we're going to be storting through okay there there they're requesting a what's called an obstruction permit under a RightWay ordinance which requires typically it requires staff and administrative approval we can tie conditions to it and make sure that they have an access plan and all kinds of things in place to make sure if we're closing a portion of the street down um that it's not going to disrupt the everyday lives of our residents um and so a and Schmidt is working with them on those plans and reviewing those plans and I think to Brent's point he just wants to make sure the council is in the loop and is okay with everything because as we all know Murphy's Law it can go wrong it will and your residents are going to be complaining who they complain to probably you um if if they're upset about things so we just want to again make sure that everybody um has a say and understands what's happening before it happens I think a lot of projects especially emergency projects um require street closures and they happen without Council action um in certain circum es but we have enough Runway here where we can bring to council and they've um the good news is they're taking down like 17 to 20 um diseased trees that have Emerald ashp that that's not good and if they're you know if that doesn't happen they can become dangerous and fall on cars or people or other things so um we're working with them and it'll be before you I think at the next meeting okay I just want to make sure there's a plan to communicate to Residents I know that be their job too associations are wonky in there of some parts are Association and across the street it's not Association so I just want to make sure that there's not a like that's not the association but like we'll notice it too as a city to the rest of the city is that we attend correct cuz there's more than just those residents that use that Ro true um I have a question and Aon maybe you can help answer this too so there has long been a desire to have a trail from the Bluffs Park up that Parkway um to the neighborhood so with these trees coming out does the HOA itself have any plans on putting a trail in does this leave room now if they don't obviously the city has not has not you know set aside any plans or money for something like that is it's something we can look at a grant for to see if we can get it up that road we've talked about it um like in relation to Creekside Park like what it would take to connect Creek Side across that HOA property I know we've talked like a city project on HOA property is arduous like it takes 90% of the residents within the HOA but we could absolutely at least talk to the ho see if that's something they'd be interested in doing it would benefit the BL residents greatly so I don't think it could be a city process on their property but we could absolutely approach the HOA and just say what do you think about this yeah the issue is that we need a trail easement or a public RightWay easement to to be able to put public Trail there and if it were a private land owner that was on board it would be easy they would just you know grant us an easement we'd record it but their HOA bylaws are written in a way that requires to ER point a certain percentage of like their members to approve it and they can't just feed land or give land to the city so um it's it's more complicated and requires some I think you know there's red tape from hoa's perspective that we don't really have control over we could always you I don't think the council is in favor of initiating inent domain for this kind of thing it's like if if they're willing to do it we'd be willing to do it but umre correct sa yeah I just was curious because it's a long stretch of road we've heard about it for 20 years that from the park up to the rest of the development has a hard time because there's no Trail or sidewalk or any of those things and so people I mean d off there they're walking down in the street and then they have to hop up under the grass again it's not there it is their property I said know if they had any intention of doing something like that or something that we could just talk to them about maybe there's opportunities that we can work together to get something in there good I do uh they're moving on uh the Carver Community Development uh Carver County Community Development agency is hosting kind of a I would say like a goal setting session on February 4th I sent out a flyer Aon and I are going to be attending that um there's been some recent board conversation regarding the County's role in economic development and I believe that's going to be a topic of conversation at this February 4th uh Gathering traditionally that work has been done by the the cities uh but there's an interest uh at least on by some of the members of the board to kind of get involved I don't know what that means or what that looks like uh but it's a um I would say a new sphere of conversation that we really haven't uh had to deal with or has been brought to us so just wanted to get that on your radar um if there's any specific comments that you have either now or in the future related to that I'll keep you updated as far as what occurs at that meting I'll skip the new Housing Development and do that last so we have commission interviews uh we have nine applicants uh eight for applying a commission one for HPC um because of the number um uh we've had success doing that on an off meeting night rather than trying to jam that into a work s agenda so um throughout a couple of dates I don't know if they work on your calendars on Monday February 10th or Monday February 24th uh we typically would start like at 5:30 and I think we did increments of either five or 10 minutes in the past so I just wanted to see if either of those would work for you then we get started on notifying the applicants the 10th does not work for me and the 24th could maybe what time what time are you planing like 5:30 cuz we'll be coming back from my hotel that day so I can possibly be here that night but the 10 is an absolute no for me I can make the 24th I can make the 24th I can do the 24th can you text um Eric just to see what he's available for y cuz I think if it's just the three of us on the 24th I find another night that works better I can the 24th should work I mean barring a broken down car or something like that on the way home yeah let's not it's bad carel yeah let's not do that um that should work okay and then the last thing and I might throw it toss it over to Erin but just want to kind of give you a line of sight I know that I've shared this previously but uh we've met with the h a number of times so they've um have purchase agreements on uh former John Lindon property or Ruthie lensen and then part of the hamers property so it's a combined 300 plus acres um so very preliminar uh preliminary at this point but Aaron Schmidt Aaron Smith uh the whole kind of development team has been meeting but I would say throughout the course of the Year you'll see petitions for annexation concept plans neighborhood meetings prary plat final plat uh all the things that you see but this is a pretty significant uh development piece kind of extends uh past the Midway point between 11 and 43 uh We've connected with Carver County uh as it relates to kind of where you know the future Monroe Drive extends and lands on to County Road 43 and then at uh in our comprehensive plan there's a it contemplates a kind of a BRI fly over kind of um at the Midway point between 11 and 43 over 212 so no access on to 212 but as a collector reliever so uh they've hired a engineering firm srf to to verify if there's still a need for that that would go in with the project but the RightWay might be preserved for a bridge that goes in 50 years from now um but when you have a piece that is this big uh you can imagine there's a whole lot of environmental reviews I think I don't if this is going to have a ea um but this will be a pretty big Conversation Piece in the 25 and likely in the 26 E I do okay thank we're talking to acronyms though I know and you know how much I hate acronyms I have a question what do we know about like that water feature is it lot of wildlife is it like truly filtering things or the same thing is it swimmable is it swimmable or is it just kind of the way the farm Fields were plowed or yeah we what do we know about it it's interesting because the old rail Corridor you can see runs through that pond oh so yeah it I would say it hasn't always been there but as we start learning more about the the project like the eaw will tell us a lot about it um right now in conso plans Dr hon is not proposing to touch it at all so I suspect it'll become part of their system but based on where it is like in the middle of farm Fields I'd say it's probably not a luscious swim pond by any means right we'll save the question about sleding Hill for the next time itable yes you know that is always on right you went on the border off all right the fun Starts Now um actually can we just do counil requests before we have too much fun um I did have one thing although I do want to put a pin in it um but maybe just to get us all to start thinking about um Brent sent out an email earlier this morning and now I'm trying to find it um where I just wanted kind of everybody to start thinking about League offerings um there is the elected leaders Institute I know that uh Kayla has signed up to go to the one down in Mano that's always an option for you guys and really really good programming the advanced program um for folks who have been around a little bit is being offered in Plymouth and in uh Alexandria this year the one in Plymouth I think is the end of February and then Alexandria might be a week or two after that um and then um there is the day on the hill which uh if I could find that email it would say that it is I think it's March 6 um but I think we've always worked pretty hard to make sure that we don't have a quum at that and just kind of wanted folks to kind of be ready um and kind of check their schedules maybe for our next meeting so we can kind of figure out who's going where and then there's also the leak conference which is the end of uh June and it will be back in duth again so that's my request is just check your calendars we'll talk at our next meeting all right now let's have some unless there are any other councel requests all right I agree let's have some [Music] fun to get my display actually fixed oh what we get to see your kids I know but St to do with both be hard to do the fun okay okay tonight we're going to talk about the zoning code update which the Planning Commission has been doing such a good job on in my personal opinion so we're going to say pretty high level tonight um the document is is definitely a work in progress right now but just wanted to hit you with some of the headlines that we've been working through at the Planning Commission level get some feedback uh talk about some big things that they've been tackling so why are we doing this uh zoning codes are always working documents as you know throughout the year we adopt change get rid of ordinances as we see fit the zoning code is no different but it's kind of a bear it's a big document there are implications throughout it that if you get rid of one section it might impact several others so change updates can happen at any point this is the biggest revision that we've done on a grand level uh in probably 10 plus years so it's important to do every so often there are changes in markets Trends staff development so if the Carver City code is say 10 years old Carver look is really different in 2015 than it does in 2025 so there's been a lot of changes in what has been happening both private market and the work that we're doing at a city level um several sections are really close so like there are sections of the code that haunt me the specifically like the fence section is really hard to read that it's something that a lot of residents probably are thinking about but it's hard to read and figure out what applies to your lot and what doesn't so one of the main goals of this and the work that the Planning Commission is doing is to make it understandable and easy to process there's no harder conversation that I have than with a resident when I'm trying to read the code and it's like I that part means um so hoping to make it clear you're easier to understand and then the updated comp plan should include updated zoning regulations so should happen more often than it probably does But Here We Are Tonight working on it so the Planning Commission again has been doing this work since 2023 they've been doing such a good job it's been long um some of our meetings have been pretty boring but they truly have ke uh they've done a really nice job they're really invested in the process so it's include many hours of discussion feedback and EV and laughs and fun and I truly mean that Christa Goodell is she has a degree in technical writing so she'll sometimes catch me and stuff and it's like I'm not even thinking about what that like um so it's been really helpful and great to get that group looking at it the Planning Commission has completed sections 50-1 through 50-70 which is 43 total pages of Revised Code and then any feedback the council provides we'll go back to the Planning Commission we'll keep discussing keep working on the document so our goals for the work session tonight receive feedback on Big Picture items know that the document is work in progress I shot this over to Natalie Meyer a couple weeks ago and said like help me not embarrass myself with how this document is formatted so she's done a ton of work um once we're in a spot where the city council says great continue on I'm probably going to enlist Brenda as well and natal to do some additional cleanup they both are kind of our uh spell check grammar gurus so getting some expertise in our office and then some general cleanup will continue through the process so the headlines the things everything you about on a large scale General readability and cleanup so a lot of our code feels Antiquated and it feels like we are trying to outsmart ourselves which is a little bit tricky so hoping to make the information more readable so changing things like shall to must making it more conversational formatting throughout the document is a nightmare right now you can tell pieces that were added that are just formatted differently personally as a person who does not care about details I've never noticed it but people who do care about details are this thing is hard to read um so formatting is going to be important ease of read and cutting jargon is one of our main goals as one of the headlines number two this is where it gets kind of meaty and some more information so we've been talking a lot about residential lots and our current zoning districts so again Lots has changed in the city of Carver since the zoning code was written and last revised there are some districs in our city code that frankly don't make sense anymore that should be removed so one of those is the residential unsued district which um right now there's some properties on dedri that are zoned that the residential un sewered but as you all know we just went through a street project a couple years ago they are sewered so we should get rid of that zoning District probably because it does not describe the properties that are there so I know there was a question at the council L level earlier today like what happens to those lots we would take a look at them and have them rezone to what zoning District they most closely match so if that's R1 or R2 so iton won't be Lawless land of no zoning we would res Zone those properties to one of the zoning districts that closely matches the type of lots that are there right now the planning commission's also been talking a lot about our relationship with a PRD or a planned residential development so a PRD creates as you know an independent ordinance for each neighborhood so if someone is looking for the zoning of their property they can't go to the city code and look and say oh I live in an R2 development they typically live in a PRD and those are part of our city code but they're hard to find so prds uh can be a little bit confusing and challenging to track down so depending on what our math looks like if someone looks and says they live in a PRD you have to track down that specific ordinance and then uh people in our seats typically have to know why the PRD happened was it for smaller lot size was it for uh reduced setbacks what was the thing that triggered that triggered that PRD so it just makes the process a little bit clunkier doesn't make it bad by any means but it just is a process that we do fairly regularly that I've been thinking a lot about like what is the Merit of our zoning code if we're continuously doing prds if we're continuously having people ask us to change one of the parts of our zoning ordinance to allow for a project so our most common PRD request is smaller lot size reduce side yard setback and again any section in the residential uh table sets minimum so we can say our minimum is 10 ft someone could come in with side yard setbacks of 15 ft that probably wouldn't happen but could so again remember that these are minimum so here's the residential table that's in our city code today so the R Us is the residential ued um you can see the minimum zoning lot area is 2.5 acres which property of dri is obviously not that it's a neighborhood so a lot of this is just not applicable I don't anticipate that the setbacks would change they mirror pretty closely like the front yard setback side yard set back rear yard to the R1 zoning District so we would get rid of that District likely rezone them to R1 since they seem to fit those requirements but it gets rid of some of these uh strange requirements like the two and a half acres so everything on this table is what we currently have correct okay yep and then the residential insured right now is that weird part of our code that says you can have one animal equivalent unit which in our code is like 15 chickens or a go or a which obviously seemed pretty inappro in Carver today so cleaning up some of that getting rid of the residential un sword if I get my horse now is it grandfather did [Laughter] now so thinking about the zoning of the city right now feeling out which districts are often used like what the market is demanding lately you can see that R2 is really popular so that includes Meridian Fields Timber Creek oak tree uh Haw Ridge and then some of the Blues also R2 and Meadows at Spring Creek and Brookview um so thinking about that R2 is the district that the market is calling for right now developers are seeing that there is Success there they're asking us to rezone properties that come in the city from egg to R2 so that's just anecdotally the most popular zoning District you can also see on the screen now that residential un Sewer District uh where everything it's that blue in the center where everything should be 2 and a half acres which the whole area might be 2 and a half acres and there are obviously several more homes there can I one thing too so but your point about the PRD I think is a good thing to keep hang okay oh those are all our prds yeah because the just the way I think about this and I know Council some of you have a lot of experience with planned residential developments um others less but there's an underlying zoning District so it's like R2 is what we look at for the rules what apply um but then there's a PRD overlay which gives them the right to have whatever flexibility the city council granted at the time the PRD was approved right to eron's point a lot of times it's setbacks or minimum lot size that's what we give leniency on um but there's always an underlying zoning district and I think to aon's point R2 is clearly the most utilized residential district from a single family develop development perspective in the city so um I don't mean to jump in yeah sorry I glared it you I just think it's I always I always like to think of that like overlay District as being special a couple special rules that apply but otherwise it's our R2 district and rules that would apply to that property so so on the screen now all the checks are where we have approved our prds so uh I'm going to toot my own horn a little bit but if someone else were in my seat trying to figure out what all of these prds were for can be a little bit challenging to know like Timber Creek was uh PRD because it was a mix of housing types they did a reduction to five yard side setbacks reduction in lot size um Carver Ridge is the increased density so that's a PRD mix of housing types um but again you'll start to see really common themes that the reduction to 5 foot side yard setbacks and reduction in lot sizes have been so popular those have been a majority of the prds we've approved in the past several years so thinking about that I been contemplating with the Planning Commission what does it look like if instead of this PRD process in that R2 zoning District we go down to the reduction to the 5 yard 5 foot side yard set back minimum and a reduction in the lot size and jump scare to the Planning Commission we started I I threw out a very low number for minimum lot size and they all looked at me like I had two heads so we came to a happy medium they brought me up a little bit so thinking about um setbacks we did a little bit of research at the Planning Commission level so the top is the R1 zoning District the bottom is R2 what we're at right now so what is proposed in the R2 District right now is 5,000 square fet for lot size so I will say I uh spoke with the Community Development directors in this cohort of cities that we often compare ourselves to and I asked like what are you thinking about for your zoning code what are you thinking about for lot size and they all are contemplating the same question because the market is demanding smaller lot sizes and they also told me that I can be the sacrificial lamb to try first and see how it goes and then report back but just thinking about how often we're doing that PRD for the same things consistently do we just make our code consistent with the requests so looking at that the R2 zoning District typically Falls in our low density um low density residential and medium density residential it floats between those two if it's a single family product R2 you can go up to duplex so on the screen now is our comp plan uh the taupe brown color is anything that's an egg preserve so don't take that as a residential district but anything in the yellowish color uh the lightest yellow is low density and then as you progress through the darker yell as it's higher density uses Aon would you mind to share with the console just like a little bit on the Met console's work to change density requirements CU I think that might uh inform their future decision making on this topic good call so the 2040 comprehensive plan lowdensity residential for Osment 3 to 5 units per acre the Met council is doing work on their local community handbook that would increase low density residential to a minimum of four units per acre so uh it would be likely four to six for us in the low density category we have had a lot of conversations with our sector at McKenzie and Deb Barber with the Met Council talking about impacts that would have to the city of Carver if you are tracking news at all for the city of Carver and development it's a pretty hot topic right now there are a lot of communities that are talking about it the feedback that I got from McKenzie our sector rep is that they may change the way that they look at platting where it's it wouldn't be a plat by plat basis so it wouldn't just be Timber Creek it wouldn't just be oak tree it could be CommunityWide so as you can see the average net density in Carver based on our 2040 complex plan is 3.65 units per acre which they would round us up to four so if that is the intent that they choose to move forward our current plan would meet that intent not all communities are falling in that same situation so if you're familiar at all with Chasco planning they have some area called a green belt where their density is really low so their density plummets a little bit lower than ours does but net the net density would be Citywide so across our high density projects across our medium density across our low density I hope that holds true that my C I think has a meeting next week to talk about it so we are uh anxiously awaiting their decision but if it does increase to four we likely are going to continue seeing small lot development with reduced sidey yard setbacks to increased density in projects and The Leverage met Council has is all of our sewer goes through their processing so they won't issue a sewer permit for developments if we don't can't meet their density so I think everyone through some type of experience has heard from somebody about small Lots or you mean Christy M you're one of those so I just I think you know that'll be an opportunity for us as for Council for you to kind of advocate for whatever position you have but then a responsibility or opportunity for us as staff to communicate that as this process goes that um it kind of feeds into the um some of your legislative priorities about local decision making that um it's been said that sometimes the Met Council looks at things as a one- siiz fits-all and so like there are nuances between Suburban communities even though maybe some don't think so and so opportunities for advocacy in this area impact real impacts to our community here you're have a question um on the slide so where it's a 3.65 units per acre and that is the total of the city all factored into one now we have two more high density um buildings going in here how does that factor into those are either of those in that number yet yes both of them one both so this is based on our entire growth area so that's not everything that's existing in Carver today as our whole growth area okay but the we anticipated Carver Place and Carver Oaks with that Medium density that it was zoned as so it's included here okay I know that is still working through all this ER but I'm just curious what the planners are hearing can you include the growth area when you're making these calculations or do you have to just include city limits or what where do you think they're going to go with that I hope that they go growth area because we hit some high density yeah at some major intersections that would help us through some of these spaces like in our meetings with Horton they're already struggling to hit density for the project because there are some challenging areas on that property like the topography is pretty wild um getting streets into the site gets a little bit tricky based on some of the typography so if you think about um The Project D Horton right now is proposing 398 or 498 units and they're struggling to hit three units per acre so what does that mean in 3 years when I say you have to hit four like how small will those lots be do we have to include some apartment facility like what does that look like so I hope it's a on stop check box that we can say our growth area covers it but they can build some smaller homes that fit in the size of the lot rather than these monstrosities or attach town homes or other things y yeah so I don't know I hope it's our growth area but we'll learn more in the next couple weeks I have a question too on met council's process like roughly do you know when they make the decision and then like when we need to um yeah adhere to there was a change it'll be our next comprehensive plan process so we'll likely start that in 2026 2027 with adoption in 2028 okay that'd be the 20150 comprehens okay so we wouldn't have to change we wouldn't have to meet those re requirements until that time correct yep but it is tricky like Dr was asking already like is are you set at three for the low density residential and based on our playing we have to be like we don't have much wiggle room here to go lower because we don't pick it up elsewhere so that was a nice thing about the two CDA projects over the past couple years is that it's helped some of our density balance credits as far as density goes right and we might get a couple high density projects in the next couple years but it was nice always thinking about that project knowing like it it'll probably happen sometime that it would boost us for a while coveridge was great for that too so so thinking through our current districts thinking about our low density residential typic is R1 and R2 the medium density is R2 primarily in the traditional residential so lots are a little bit smaller downtown densities are higher and then high density residentials R3 mixed use would be a mix of um our R2 district and R3 so think about mixed use as potentially retail bottom uh living space above and then just for reference car Ridge density is 18.57% think about so you can think about high density like what that project looks like of a site that hits about 19 units per acre okay so what we know currently about our zoning R2 is our most common zoning District we use prds often our housing stock is pretty similar and our Market is strong so what does that look like longterm for zoning districts uh what thoughts do we have about R2 the use of prds uh Dave caught me in a quick conversation today of if we go to more straight zoning a PRD like we have a little more capacity in our PRD process to request more things probably so PRD should be a negotiation process where the developer says if if you give me smaller lot sizes and a reduced IDE setb back we'll give you XYZ my thought about flipping that script a little bit is if we boost our zoning District that R2 is solid and it meets current market current demand and we work hard on our buffering and Landscaping ordinances to increase those request environments across the board we might get a product that uh currently feels like the prds that we're getting but we're using Straight zoning instead of the PRD process so it's a lot to think about it's a pretty technical brain process you have to go through thinking about a PRD um I don't have like this is not something it's not I'm not I don't have a conviction to go to straight zoning it's helpful it's clearer I think we can make our code more usable for us and developers if we want to straight zoning but absolutely open to some feedback the Planning Commission was supportive of it to work towards going to straight zoning knowing prds can absolutely still happen like if there is a strange project that requires it or something that we don't know about that could get a really neat new product in Carver we absolutely could continue using it doesn't take it out of our toolbox but it makes it less used than what we're doing right now so I'll stop there if anyone has questions or feedback that one's kind of the big ke one you know for me and I think you kind of outlined these reasons it seems like straight zoning would be more user friendly not only from the developer side of things but also from the resident side of things so that they can understand what their setbacks are whatever they may want to find I know that we'll find ourselves in instances where we have residents who will go in and try to find the code and they will be reading something or misinterpreting it and it's easy to understand why is because it is in part it's like written in Greek sometimes um so what sh what shell you mean right um but I think you know like at the end that part that you said about kind of losing our negotiation power that was the one thing that made me think like oh shoot but like kind of the way you explained it if we are able to change our requirements and you know make sure that those are really really clear as well and again kind of going to that more user friendly more resident friendly more development friendly um I think that that's more straightforward I think um I think it also kind of on the political landscape I think we all are aware of what happened last year at the state legislature where there was the housing bills and year before that and the year before that when they were trying to really clamp down on building permits and what we're doing as far as zoning and those kinds of things I I it gives us a card to play if we're saying like listen we're already doing 5 foot minimum setbacks we're already doing you know whatever 20 foot minimum setbacks of you know whatever we're not part of the problem we're trying to be part of the solution so I think that gives us kind of a good example to use as kind of being good partners um and just understanding just how tricky the market is right now and I keep going back to that slide that you showed us years ago it was like cost this much for infrastructure it cost this much for roads it cost this much for pipes um so that's why you're not getting a brand new house that's $200,000 and you know when you were starting it just like infrastructure alone you're talking I forget what the number was but it was like $300,000 before you build a house on there so um I'm inclined to say like let's and and because the Planning Commission recommends it I'm inclined to say towards straight zoning I'll also say working in carbo now the time that I have I feel like our climate here has changed a little bit too like when I first started um it felt like there was a little bit of a boom in 2018 we were seeing a lot of projects all at once and that it's not typical that we've continued that boom like there has not been a year that we're like oh we're not really working on anything so based it feels like we are growing up a little bit in our zoning code that we can start to say like this is what we're seeing this is what we understand to be true about our market and I like to think and um some feedback we've gotten is that Carver is really easy to work with like we are a small team which means you get pretty quick answers if you get one of us on the phone but I think that that would encourage that relationship to continue to say we understand what you're looking for we can meet you add on some of this so I like the idea of also being able to add things like the buffers because they feel like sometimes I just don't have like the visibility of you know what that development would look like for you know this one little culde that's in the back ofat and I feel like so many those times when we do ask the developers to do things it's feedback from the residents which is great but what if we had residents that just weren't engaged and so y I think having that earlier in we do have buffering and Landscape in our city code but it definitely can be enhanced MH especially I think about uh major corridors like we thinking about projects that develop along 212 we often are uh kind of pulling teeth with a developer to get a burm along 212 it's typically noise from 212 that triggers that bming and buffering but in my dreamiest city code there's language that says if you're adjacent to Highway 212 you need to have XYZ for buffering and Landscape day one not even part of the negotiation so if you want to develop in that area knowing that buring and Landscaping is required yes to that because residents who are building there aren't going to realize how much noise and what quality of life impacts that has okay um so I'll start down the PRD Road for a second so I've made it very known at many of our meetings that the PRD like gets under my skin a little bit because we have zoning code and then on just about everything that comes in we're slapping a p on it so my irk with this is that if we have the regular zoning code why are we not just enforcing it as the zoning code that we have in there um now if we if we look at something that's kind of combination as we as we upgrade this that the R2 and the prds because we you I do agree that we've grown up as a city a little bit to where we kind of know what is happening every development comes in isn't okay this is brand new what are we going to do here right we've done this before a little bit um I would prefer to have a straight r two that we can follow generally obviously there's always an exception to every rule we live on a bunch of Hills here so the things are going to be different in different areas um but I am tired of seeing what looks like to me the exception to all the rules true and um I mean this is nothing new I've said this many times before can we go back to the slide that has the comparison with the cities on this one yeah and can you remind me because columns don't have yeah so the top is R1 it starts minimum lot size lot size lot width front yard set back side yards up back rear yards up back okay and this is the one we're looking to move towards or this is what we have now this is what we have today so U my biggest push would be for the R2 zoning District to change a bit so minimum lot size would go to 5,000 we would keep the remainder with with the exception of the sidey yard set back down to five so reduce from 7 and 1 half to five so I I am absolutely not in favor of reducing the side yard setbacks 5T is reach out and touch your neighbor and I worry about other things as in fires different things that happen right because that can skip from house to house really quickly um I just there's nothing to me that says that five yard 5T I'm sorry from your property line that's shorter than me right and then another one so that's it between you and your neighbor that is too close for comfort for me for Carver we have one chance to do this right cuz once those houses are up they're up forever and I don't I know that 2 and 1/2 ft maybe seems like something small to squabble about but to me that every little foot you can get between homes is important so I am not in favor of going down to 5T um and I'll make that very known that's my stance on that for the rest of the council um but when it comes to the when we go back to the R2 I think that if we have have what we have set and then we don't Grant below that except in special circumstances this will become the norm because this is what we require and that will just be the end of the story there unless there's an extending circumstance I will say not that your concerns are not valid but with a five yard um side yard setback sorry five they uh you have to have a different fire rated wall for the two walls that share so yes fires can jump absolutely but there is some uh rest a little easier knowing that the walls have to be fire rated on the two sides that are close together okay that's good information to have definitely it does not change for me that um we're stacking on top of each other in some of these developments so again I would be happier to STI stick at the seven and a half ft and have that be our standard uh because I think aesthetically and realistically when we say well this is what selling this is what's on that's because that's all that's on the market right so I think from what I have heard from people who buy their houses they certainly would love to have a more size but that's all there is so we've got that one chance to do it right so again I'm just going to say that I'm not in favor going down to the 5 ft um there's a lot of things in here to go through so um after that how how what does this look like for coming back like do we you're going to come back for some more I'd like to go through this again for some more input um especially after our talk tonight I didn't I kind of came in keeping a really open mind really open late to everything and I'd like to dig a little bit deeper now that I've heard your presentation rather than say okay we've made all of our our discussion points send it back and we're and that was the goal just keep it um the Planning Commission has gone like literally line by line and it has taken us hours upon hours we didn't want to do this in this work session so thank you just some highlights um I have a couple of questions about the um the CDD downtown but do we want to wait for that ask want to wait yes um but that commercial business district sorry but there's so difference so I completely agree with Christy's concerns that's was my overall opinion of this is that I'm really concerned about the city creating an area where residents are just stacked on top of each other as close as we can get them especially if we remove prds and our ability to make sure that we have green spaces and trails in those communities as well um I don't want our our new residents to be jammed in and not have the same amenities that we all love in the parts of the city that we're in already um other than that I have I have um I'm glad to hear that we're going to look at doing the Landscaping ordinance as well that was my biggest concern going through this because we've even removed that section from the PRD section um all of the landscaping and everything it's just as p take took all of that out um my other my next thing is um the under what we have written down it doesn't appear the generic offer space is permitted in light industrial but we talked last time about pause Okay no Okay [Music] um yeah those are my big things okay I'm going to keep rolling through some of these but that was helpful for the R2 PRD discussion um next the Planning Commission has been talking a lot about accessory dwelling units which I feel like you all are approached about quite a bit too so offering uh more generational housing on a lot so allowing an accessory drawing unit that would be a separate uh essentially like a mother-in-law unit is what I call a grany flat is what they were call for a little while so legisl yeah the Planning Commission feels pretty strongly that we should start thinking about the idea of an accessory dwelling unit to allow for um they're not cheap to put up so I think saying greater housing affordability is kind of a scam because they're expensive because you need a separate set of utilities but that's a fish we can fry later so can we just go into that they must have utilities it can't be like an office space that I have that's just a converted shipping container because like for this AUD it absolutely must have in order to get a certificate of occupancy to for someone to live in it you have to have plumbing and all that sewer y so General feedback do I know a lot of you are approached about it I love it I've been talking about this for so so being [Music] recorded the work that we've been doing would allow them in the R1 R2 and then the traditional residential district so obviously not R3 where it would be an apartment with an Adu behind it so we'd be focusing on the residential district so that seems like a pretty easy discussion to continue down that path and this just like chickens if there's an association that disallows it those restrictions are greater than what we do at the city level correct that was easy did we address um because I know I know that residents are going to love the idea of having an Adu and then using it as a um additional vbo or something yeah have we addressed that we don't have restrictions in our city code I um I would say that's worked favorably for people that are offering their homes like the Airbnb above getaway Josh has one downtown there are a couple throughout town and they historically haven't been an issue for us okay and that but that's allowed in our current correct okay yep okay we'll continue on that path on that one we'll cruise through a little bit uh next up is the commercial industrial zoning District so on our comp plan it's purple we don't have that District in our city code so when people call and they say I'm interested in your commercial industrial district what does that mean we don't have it right now so this would add it which would be great to have it as an option so it's the purple areas um language from the propos code allows for employment areas that may develop as a mix of typical industrial commercial users so thinking about like Lake VI would fall into this since it's an office and light manufacturing space the projects that we're starting to see along JCP so like the United properties piece that they're proposing the two buildings would fall into that category so allowing the same typical projects that we've been seeing and being excited about but actually establishing a district for those how did we them because it was just commercial or industrial so how did we make that work for like Lake View then Lake View is light industrial which is on our city code okay yeah all right number four there are some changes to commercial districts so Gateway commercial would be intentional zoning of property directly adjacent to Jonathan Carver Parkway so this started at the Planning Commission level when we were getting some questions from residents about uh the LW project that came in why are we doing lashwab instead of a grocery store what um does the city really need it and it was in our uh freeway commercial district and it was a permitted use so the Planning Commission we took a step back and said let's be a little bit more thoughtful about the gateways of our community so thinking about where people enter our community where they travel often what they see um I know the city council also did a lot of work on the Lush project to make it feel a little bit more commercial than it did day one so thinking about that differently creating a Zone District of Gateway commercial so anything directly adjacent to JCP would have a different zoning district with some additional regulations and um like bulk material so thinking about what a project looks like so we would enhance uh that it might need to be stone or brick or party board siding only so thinking about the gateways in our community thinking about where people not only residents but people traveling through making a different zoning district for those important corridors that I think we all are realizing how important they are RS Carver continues to grow um Central business district making it specific to our Historic downtown so uh the HPC obviously does a ton of good work but I would like to mirror those two processes a little bit closer that the central business district also needs to adhere to the HPC regulations so thinking about that and then right now we don't have a General commercial District we've been using freeway commercial as our like General commercial District so um children of tomorrow OD to be kids sorry um M's Pizza Carver Dental those are all guided freeway commercial and frankly they're not adjacent to a freeway so thinking about a General commercial District that could get us there and then thinking about Gateway commercial so some important sites that we would think about right when you come up off the exit at 212 so 212 in gcp along the strip on um Carver common so it wouldn't be the entire site it would just be properties directly adjacent to Jonathan cover Parkway so we could set anage that it's the first 200 F feet adjacent to Jonathan Carver Parkway so thinking about that area and then a couple more in our future growth areas we continue to move both both west and south Again The General commercial District get rid of us using freeway commercial in places that it's probably not appropriate just based on what the language comes for okay I got through all the slides uh we're looking for some feedback we'll pause on the commercial stuff so give me feedback thoughts comments Etc you want to go first on this one i' you yeah the last for yeah no um I mean if we're the comments that I made about the residential are the comments I already made um the otherwise everything is my concerns are with some of my other concerns or questions are about uh commercial and Industrial so I'll pause those until we address those directly no that's right now don't that's right anymore okay okay we're unpausing this okay so um the under what we've written here it appears that generic office space is not permitted in light industrial generic office space the way that it's written right now it appears that it is it says that um only office space that's ancillary to Industrial is allowed in that spaces and I know we talked about in United properties that they are looking to possibly do generic office in there as well so I would be concerned about that um um we talked about green spaces yeah that was my biggest thing okay there's some wording problems but that'll be cleaned up as we go so I'm not worry about that give me a final draft and I'll start it picking um I really like the idea the commercial District um especially um that slide that is 22 out of 6 where it you know big picture you know there's five areas that we could say well yes this is for sale you could build it but oh wait we have this checklist and we're trying to plan this out okay I just want to make kind of say that back to make sure I understood it you got can it be as specific as just Trader Joe's I would love that but okay get us closer okay chy um okay so when I was looking through the downtown business district um I was wondering why we so specific on permitted uses now I realized before I mean because we're having here like retail s such as such as such as such as such as you know Finance Insurance real estate service it seems like an exhaustive list but it also seems like a list of things that are already here so I don't it seems overly specific to me yeah I just and not for I don't think it's going to do much but for me it just seems like it's a lot of unnecessary wording to read through and a lot enough document and a lot of that feels kind of antiquated like we've had so many conversations at Planning Commission about what a brew pub versus a brewery like there yeah but I mean personal services laundry Barber shoe repair shoe repair um I haven't seen I call in the downtown that would be appropriate but no um so anyways I would like to just broaden it I don't think there's a I mean we're not under general laws there's nothing that we're going to stop from coming in here anyways so what well keep in mind if it's not listed as a permitted use it's presumed to be prohibited that that the only caveat with that though is similar uses from a land use perspective it would be hard to say no to right so if if you have hundred things listed one of them is a nail salon but you don't have a hair salon those are very similar from a land use perspect perspective right you have service industry where people are coming in and so I think it would be hard for us to say you can't you can't exist here hair salon and we say nail salon does exist but um but a lot of cities rely on the fact that a certain use isn't listed specifically as a way to prohibit that use and say that that's not something we allow in our our zoning district and so um you want to be a little careful about how you craft sure but I take that list and brought in agree with that we already have things like there's some of the like let's say sex based Industries like strip clubs and things like that are already prohibited in our ordinance correct well you can't downtown downtown yes okay okay any okay thank you and thank you we'll broaden it a little bit um am I reading this correctly that we don't have a section right now for General commercial as the proposed draft is correct okay so we would propose that we include that in a new yes because we've got a section here for Gateway I'm seeing a section for Gateway and I'm seeing a section for freeway but I'm not seeing a section for General okay that might have gotten Lost in Translation yeah or it just could have got it's a long document it could have just gotten Miss just went missing which is totally fine I'm just not it okay so um if we go to on the next page then um l so it talks about the outdoor Sidewalk Cafe so when we're talking about timing for that that is literally just the ones that we permit on the front sidewalks that doesn't include like behind the dogghouse or behind Lisa or those would be patios but the like Harvey's is a Sidewalk Cafe okay it have to be in the public right away gotcha okay um so another one here was a little bit overly furniture will be washable constructed of metal plastic or other weather resistant materials why are we calling out what someone's materials are is that the sidewalk cafe or well it's under 50-64 and it's just all this I've seen some sorry what was patreon um I haven't printed out so I'm on page 32 on my printed out C it's uh outdoor Sidewalk Cafe permitted is on page 31 of the proposed or uh proposed ordinance I'm good and if we don't we don't need to go this far in detail if you want to send me your notes we can some of it yeah so I think I don't know if Carver has had this problem I know some cities have allowed this and when you when you start to allow furniture that can absorb water or can't absorb water and it gets moldy disgusting gross you're going to have blight issues downtown so with sidewalk cafes they don't want you to put they don't want you to go find a couch on and put it I'm serious there are some establishments I don't think any in Carver would do this but if you have a provision there then you know you can't do it so I think that's probably the reason for that um you know you want to make sure that the furniture isn't going to get Fly gross and because it's outside right that's my guess I I could be wrong but that's what the council wanted at the time is like five or six years old that's why it seems to me and correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me we simply ported chapter 10 into this like cuz we have a section on in the code as it is now that is just it's outside of our zoning that's specific to outdoor cafes and it sounds like we've just ported that into the zoning is that correct I think it was the other way around we it was in our zoning and I said don't put it there because P out when you put things in your zoning code you're admitting that when you change it Granda grandfathering issues happen but if it's in a business regulation then that problem doesn't exist and that's probably our issue now is that we haven't fully codified our ordinance to take it out of 50 yet that was the goal and talked about doing it with this rewrite I don't yeah according to the website that has all of our Municipal codes it's a separate section so we'll pull it out of 50 we'll keep it and the goal is to eventually bring okay that makes sense uh let's see here and so the zoning lot requirements and standards that are on the next page for this those are what are currently here nothing's been changed to that in which district in the CP no okay um we I anticipate that the HPC will do a little revision work in the central business district if they so choose but there'll be the reviewing Agency for that section okay okay that's all I have um my feedback is a little bit more high level um I love the idea of freeway commercial um I'm on board with that Gateway yes I'm sorry yes Gateway commercial um yes um as far as commercial industrial really good that we have code for that section now um I do have and I can probably just email you or share you like just some nits but I'm just kind of wondering um for readability I know that there are like you know the chat gpts where you can like put it through and kind of make sure that is is this at a second grade reading level or whatever and there are just a few nits of like still lots of there Afters that are in there that might be a little bit confusing because again like I want this to be something that any Resident can read and understand my nephew could read my dad could read it someone who English might not be the first language can read it and understand I haven't used chat GPT this might be a fun I don't know I don't know that chat GPT is the well maybe you could put it in and be like rewrite this and put it in a second grade reading level I'm sure you could do that with ch GPT but I think they're also specific yeah stuff I also like getting more eyes and having Brenda and Natalie go through it more as and allowing just like go nuts on it I think will help too yeah Dave do we run into any precedent issues if we start to change some of that language uh if we're just changing readability no it's not going to create problems I mean one thing I'd remind everybody about too is mean what the city code is it is legislation and you know as when we look at State statutes it's got those those you know there Afters and it's got some of that legal ease that's a pain in the butt and it's like oh how pretentious was this person who wrote this right but on the on the same Tok on the other side of the coin it's like you also want to make sure that it's clear and forceable that a judge is going to look at it if we have to sue somebody or charge somebody with a crime so there's like a balance you kind of want to I there I I like the readability goal but I also think we have to make sure to keep that other part in mind too know I ask because my field of law there's a difference between consisting of and comprising like a legal difference between those two phrases so yeah I always ask there's a lot of things that when we write code it's like I would write a little differently than I would maybe a a memo to residence or something that I know is who the audience is but really with the audience here it's going to be your police officers your judges your attorneys who are going to have to enforce it um and then explain it to Residents you don't want to make it you know hard to understand but at the same time you got to you have to make sure that what you're trying to accomplish is accomplished in words um so It's tricky at the end of the day I want this to be enforceable and not get us into trouble and you know for those audiences that you were talking about make it make sense to them but if there's anything that we could do to make it just a little bit more easy to read and understand that would be fantastic so um that is it for my feedback the one thing that I didn't mention at the beginning was just a huge thank you to you and the Planning Commission for going through all of this you this is not fun this is dumb this is boring but I attended a couple of meetings where you guys were doing this and you made it fun and the Planning Commission was laughing and exchanging jokes with one another like you really made this fun and especially when it was a really lovely June evening you know or whatever it was and these folks were stuck inside council chambers for two or 3 hours like they did a lot of really hard work chrisy gell has been fantastic but everybody contributed um and just have just watched meetings of you're like oh Krista where did I forget a come you know like everybody has been fantastic and this is a lot a lot a lot of hard work so thank you all yeah thank you can I ask a final question um so if we do have more feedback on this what's the appropriate way to wait till the next work session can we send it to staff i' let eron decide that okay if it's uh like small knit picky micro things I would love to get it not in this room just because I can drive your conversation down and I P um so we're we're going to keep cleaning up the draft let's maybe get it back in front of you another time we'll work through some of the things we discussed tonight and then if it's nitpicky I'd love to get in in an email if it's high level topic that should be discussed I think should happen here uh possibly send it though so that you can have a list of those High Lev ones so you can those in a presentation to us okay and I can share it with Brent you can share it with the rest of the Council of what I'm working on sounds good thank you when we get to the point py could you share a Word document so try all right um all right perfect [Laughter] timing um okay um so just as an explanation we always try to allow 10 minutes before our meetings so we are going to push the parking and vehicle operation regulations to the council meeting um I will try to rejigger the order of things so that we can get to you guys sooner rather than later guys that you've been here for the better part of the last hour and a half so um with that uh I would entertain a motion to adourn I'll make a motion tojn second by counc member second by counc member s all those pass thank you guys for your PA