Based on the context provided and the dialogue within the transcript, here is the formatted version with speaker names identified. **Note on roles:** * **Corey Colquist** acts as the Chair until [23:50]. * **Joe Peterson** (Chair) arrives and takes over at [23:50]. * **Eric Johnson** is the Community Development Director providing the staff reports. * **David Bolf** is the City Engineer (referred to as "Dave Holt/Bolf" in the text). *** [0:00] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** we're missing our chair he's on our way so you guys have to bear with me tonight but i'd like to welcome everyone to the city of hermantown planning and zoning commission meeting for may 17th it's currently 703 and i'll call the meeting to order we'll go ahead and start with a roll call uh we're missing mr peterson uh corey colquist i am here uh valerie roulette here samuel clark here buckley simmons here uh beth winslow here dante tomasoni here uh john geisler all right moving on to item number two uh approval of tonight's agenda can i get a motion on that [0:46] **Dante Tomasoni:** thomas only motion [0:48] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** thomas sony with uh motion can i get a second [0:50] **Buckley Simmons:** simmons a second [0:52] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** simmons in a second all in favor [0:53] **Commission Members:** hi hi [0:53] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right moving on to uh our agenda item number three approval of minutes from april 12th regular meeting can i get a motion [1:01] **Samuel Clark:** sam clark with a motion to approve the meeting minutes [1:02] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right mr clark with the motion can i get a second [1:04] **Valerie Roulette:** second roll second [1:06] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all in favor all right moving on to agenda item number four public dis discussion uh is anyone here tonight to speak on something that isn't on tonight's agenda if so would you please come to the front and state your name and address [1:33] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right not hearing anything did i have to open up a public discussion or can i just move on all right we'll move on to agenda item number five public hearing uh starting with agenda item 5a an application by glenn rudolph for a special use permit for the construction of 2400 square foot storage garage to be located at 4282 westwood road the property is located in our three residential zoning district eric what do you have for us tonight [2:07] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** great thank you very much uh this evening before us is a special use permit for a an accessory structure that's greater than 1600 square feet uh it's located at 4282 westwood road and what i'm doing right now is i'm putting up a location map on the overhead screen this is a property in the south east corner of the intersection of arrowhead road and westwood road this is an r1 zone property and the property is approximately 2.5 acres in size so as we mentioned the applicant is requesting approval to construct a 2400 square foot accessory building the dimensions are approximately 40 by 60 feet in size with 16 foot high sidewalls [2:52] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** the overall height of the proposed building is approximately 24 feet with the construction type being slab line grade with the steel siding and roof the building is going to be used to house the applicant's vehicles as well as personal belongings no business activities are proposed nor will be permitted as part of that use right now what i'm doing is i have a location map put up on the screen here so i'll use the pointer here this is the applicant's home located right here is an existing garage structure approximately right here with the location of the proposed accessory structure being in a cross-hatched area right here essentially he's on the corner [3:38] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** of the um of the intersection and so he's meeting that uh basically that front yard setback area which the way the ordnance is it's essentially equal to um the setback of the house that way uh what he's proposing then is on the side yard uh to have a 24 foot height receiving a 24 foot setback and per the ordinance uh that side yard setback needs to meet the overall height of the building so in both these cases uh he is meeting the zoning code that way as i had mentioned is this is going to be for personal use not for any sort of business use activity that way here's a couple generic basically looks of um what the building will look like [4:25] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** he's not finalized the actual detail but as i mentioned it's going to be basically steel siding that way with the steel roof associated with it so uh with that uh like i said the um the setbacks do meet the requirements of the r1 zoning district not only for front yard and side yard but also for the maximum high sidewall height maximum building height for an accessory structure in the zoning district is 35 feet once again he's looking at 24 feet so um at this point staff is uh recommending that um the planning and zoning look favorably on this and then it would go on to city council from there but at this point i'd welcome any questions or comments from the [5:10] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** planning zoning commission thank you eric do any uh commission members have any questions [5:15] **Samuel Clark:** sam clark not a question but uh it is an r3 zoned area correct not r or is it r3 zone or r1 [5:23] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** it's actually r1 zoning it's right on the edge of it so it's our over in r1 maybe just a note that on the agenda it does listed as an r3 other than that normal [5:32] **Samuel Clark:** okay great thank you appreciate that [5:35] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** does that anyone else have any other questions no questions i would move to approve agenda item 5a we have to do public discussions all right all right not hearing any other questions uh we'll open the floor to [5:56] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** public discussion at 709 if anyone has any comments on this please come to the front state your name and address for the record [6:11] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right commission members any last thoughts on this before i ask for a motion all right can i get a motion on agenda item 5a [6:22] **Valerie Roulette:** let's move to approve agenda item 5a [6:25] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right colette [Roulette] with the first can i get a second [6:27] **Buckley Simmons:** simmons with the second [6:29] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** simmons with the second all those in favor [6:31] **Commission Members:** all right all right all right [6:34] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** motion passes moving on to agenda item 5b an application by jay zierden zierden builders for a preliminary and final planned unit development for twin two twin homes four units total located on lots four and seven on the red tail hawk edition plot the property is located in [6:57] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** r3 zoning district eric what do you have for us thanks again as you mentioned this is a 5.6 acre site i have a location map up on the screen right now uh showing this uh if the planning zoning board remembers approximately last august uh the applicant came before the city to request it was a complete pud at that time but essentially it was a lot switch is what it was it was an overall it was like a 26 acre site uh originally the applicant uh did a lot of combination as well as some splits to create seven new lots associated with this so uh at that time i had been envisioned that these two particular lots lots four and seven could someday have a twin home associated on each one [7:44] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** so as the applicant has moved forward from that time it became apparent that with the existing shoreland area as well as a small wetland uh near the entry point uh it made more sense to basically pursue what's called a common interest community class so in that case you would have a shared driveway coming in as opposed to two separate driveways which originally had been envisioned so it's a little bit cleaner design than what the applicant could originally envisioned once again it's a um a shared driveway coming into the roadways or into the site off of arrowhead road because i'm pursuing it with the cursor here and then there's the two locations of [8:31] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** the proposed structures one is located essentially running north south the other one is east west these are positioned as well for two matters it's aid to basically minimize or avoid any wetlands associated with this portion a vast majority of this property to the north is wetland area and then there's also a shoreland setback associated with the unnamed tributary that's actually going to be the next agenda item that we'll speak to so in the process of clustering these two twin home buildings the applicant's able to save over 2.8 acres of existing wetlands and as i mentioned those are primarily located right in this area of the site [9:18] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** this is an existing home that was the original 26 acres and on the other side of that is a future single-family residential home right there the applicant would bring in the public water and sewer main into the site that's what this line is coming in here that would terminate into a manhole and then that from that manhole the uh each individual unit would draw its water and sewer [Music] capabilities that way now with the cic class and the separate utilities for each one the applicant does have the ability to sell each one of these units individually this is a very similar type of idea for what the applicant has built down in morris thomas road and gaines road [10:05] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** uh he has a small development right there of a series of five different twin homes and two three plexes but as i said this evening this is a planned unit development for two twin homes for a total of four units total on this total of 5.68 [10:19] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right thank you eric commission members any questions or thoughts [10:25] **Valerie Roulette:** nothing at this time for me [10:33] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right not hearing anything we'll open the floor to public discussion at 7 13 once again uh if you come to the front and talk into the microphone and state your name and address for our records [10:55] **Mark Romano (Public):** my name is mark romano 5146 arrowhead road my question i have two questions first of all i was wondering is this rental property or is this owner purchase property on the town homes and the second one on is on the capacity of the sewer line if this limits any other future development on the arrowhead road [11:18] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** eric can you help us out with that sure as far as the the rental property uh actually the applicant mr jay zerg [Zierden] is in the audience uh he may be after the answer the sewer question i'm going to look over to dave holt [Bolf] for city engineer uh maybe if mr zirjun [Zierden] can uh basically answer that rental versus sale aspect of it the way he has designed it is that our ability to sell those [11:42] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** because they have individual utilities on those but mr bolf are you able to help us open the utilities [11:51] **David Bolf (City Engineer):** um so all the question is with the added two twin homes is there capacity left in the arrowhead road sanitary sewer yes so this this sewer gets pumped it goes to a lift station it gets it gets pumped um i think that one goes to the uh east so [12:27] **David Bolf (City Engineer):** what we we need to do is look at the capacity of the lip station there's usually um when we design lift stations there's you plan for future growth and um this is probably a question that we need to ask our public works director because he he's the one that um monitors and has the flow data for the the lift stations but um it's four units you know that's four homes i the the eight inch gravity that's there has more than enough capacity to handle that flow it's the it's the lift station that we uh probably should take a little closer [13:13] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** look at sure in the case of the lift stations we've had this in other instances where it may require some additional pumping just to uh to service it that way [13:25] **Mark Romano (Public):** okay because in the past they had told us not this group but another group that told us that that line was limited on development so i just wanted to make sure that if anybody had future lots that they weren't getting blocked out by anything new coming in [13:42] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** well thank you for bringing that to our attention and we'll follow up with the public works director on it thank you [Music] mr zirjun [Zierden] do you want to come up and you can address that question [14:02] **Jay Zierden (Applicant):** jay zierden 4571 martin road uh just to answer your question uh it would be the same type of uh scenario that i did on the corner of haines morris thomas it would be built for sale or lease kind of market market driven for first come first serve [14:22] **Jay Zierden (Applicant):** you know it would be one of the other for sailor leagues whatever market thank you [14:30] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** does anyone else from the public have any comments on this item tonight yep if you'll come to the front and state your name and address [14:40] **Jackie Van Volkenberg (Public):** hi i'm jackie van volkenberg um i own the property next door on gross ridge corner 5167 arrowhead road my questions i guess is um they have the trout creek back there and the what is it there's a rocky river run [15:08] **Jackie Van Volkenberg (Public):** you heard about and i guess i'm concerned how close it's going to be to that and then if anybody's checked with the dnr on this [15:18] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** yes certainly eric can you place with that great thank you so this area is known and that's actually going to be the next item after this is a special use permit for grading and filling in a shoreland area this area is what's uh there's what's called a recreational shoreland area associated with this unnamed tributary the sun named tributary through some different uh zigs and zags and bands eventually does run down to the rocky run on the lower portion of the city that way the so as part of that recreational um [15:56] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** shoreland area it requires a minimum structure setback of 75 feet and this application does meet that as far as the building setback so as far as the dnr we send information out to the dnr i've not received any comments to date this project still does have to go to to the city council for their actual action the planning commission on this item as well as the rest of the items this evening is a recommending board versus an approval board so i will reach out again to the dnr to inquire if they have any uh questions concerns etc that way there are a number of existing homes in this area that that are within that shoreland area most of them essentially been grandfathered in [16:41] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** i do know when um when i first started here back in 16 there was a property that put up a garage essentially in the shoreland area and so this is since the six years i've been here this is the the first time that additional work has really happened along this stretch of the um of that shoreland area foreign [17:28] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** and if you guys wouldn't mind we'll have discussion afterwards um but yeah thank you guys for your comments there eric thank you for the response yeah exactly too and if there's any other specific questions if you can since we are recording this and it's on zoom that if people can approach the microphone just so we can people in at home can hear these conversations as well thank you does anyone else have any additional comments tonight [17:58] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right not hearing any we'll close the public discussion at 7 21 commission members anything else [18:12] **Samuel Clark:** all right not hearing anything can i get a motion on agenda item 5b sam clark i'll make a motion to approve agenda item 5b with a recommendation to verify that the lift station can handle the capacity [18:27] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right mr clark with the first can i get a second [18:31] **Beth Winslow:** second winslow second [18:35] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all in favor hi hi all right motion passes moving on to agenda item 5c an application by jay zierden zierden builders for a special use permit for grading and filling within a recreational shoreland area associated with an unnamed tributary for the purpose of constructing two twin homes four units total located on lots four and seven on [18:58] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** redtail hawk edition platt the property is located in an r3 zoning district eric what do you have for us on this one [19:10] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** great thank you and uh if you don't mind them just uh scrolling across here so i can everyone try to see what's going on here technology is good but sometimes it takes me a little bit to get going on these things so um this is the second part of this same project this evening as we had previously mentioned this lot is within a recreational shoreland area associated with that um unnamed tributary to the rocky run so this map that i have up right here this dash line is a setback associated with the physical structure of the homes that way this piece right here this is actually a small deck that is allowed to encroach into that area and uh there may also be the ability that that could be a patio in that same [20:22] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** case it's it's not viewed as a structure as far as the city goes so the physical building structure is outside of that 75 foot zone that way so what you're seeing in this cross-hatched area and i'm trying to point to across here that's the full extent of that shoreland area in all of our shorelands what it is is there's a 300 foot setback or boundary associated on both sides of a creek and in that shoreland area there's uh additional requirements if person is going to undertake any sort of construction activity whether it's building whether it's grading whether it's filling that way so uh what it requires is that um they have tighter time constraints on having [21:08] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** the ability to have open soil because we just don't want to have erosion or any soil matter going into that unnamed tributary that way so as a construction activity uh becomes dormant for you know a couple days or so that we try to get the um basically erosion control in place just once again so we're able to protect that not only that creek but also the wetland that's on the periphery of this property here as well perfect [21:39] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** thank you eric commission members any discussion or questions for eric [21:44] **Valerie Roulette:** what is the dimension that we're talking how close is it to the structure itself [21:53] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** approximately well there's a 70 there's a 75 foot building separate right yes and then the actual shoreland area is 300 feet on both sides of the creek okay so there's quite a bit of swath of uh existing homes in that whole area that are actually within the shoreland area as well it's a fairly common occurrence throughout our city that we have okay [22:20] **Valerie Roulette:** eric what is the circle there uh kind of in the driveway area [22:25] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** right in this area yes that is a wetland a small wetland area right there okay so recall when the applicant is attempting to get that driveway more on this side of it to really minimize that impacts associated with that wetland right there [22:39] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right anything else from the commission [22:42] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** all right not hearing anything we will open the floor to public discussion at 7 25. once again please state your name and your address for the record [23:03] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** not hearing anything we'll close the public discussion at 726 commission members anything else no questions not hearing anything can i get a motion on agenda item 5c please [23:19] **Dante Tomasoni:** thomas only moves to approve agenda item 5c [23:23] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** uh thomas sony with the first can i get a second [23:25] **Buckley Simmons:** simmons with a second [23:27] **Corey Colquist (Acting Chair):** simmons with the second all in favor aye motion carries mr chair you're back with that being said i barely got us through but i'll pass it back over to you we are on agenda item uh 5d [23:50] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you for that i've got uh technology loading here get the top sheet thank you very much okay 5d this evening is an application by jay zier and zierdon builders for preliminary planned unit development for eight lots of twin homes eight units total and 21 single-family lots for a total of 29 lots on a 33-acre site located at the northwest intersection or northeast intersection of morris thomas road and orchestra road the property is located in our three zoning districts eric what do you have for us on that one [24:35] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** great thank you so um i've got a location map up on the screen right now mr chair if you can turn your mic on please well it is i think i'm green there we go there we go i've just been cued by the back room to sit closer to my microphone as well so the man behind the curtain is helping us that's right so yes what we have this evening uh this is a as i mentioned it's a preliminary planned unit development the pud for the construction of 21 single-family lots and eight twin homes for a total of eight units this application is taking place over three properties associated as you can see on the screen here the large piece in red that is currently owned by the applicant the area in orange the north that's what's known as outlot a of um the valley view division plot that [25:21] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** was planted back in the early to mid 90s and then to the north of that there's what's called city right-of-way that's a 66-foot right-of-way that was envisioned at that time of the plat for a carlson road extension this application did come before this board in june of 2021. [25:43] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** uh at that time the applicant was proposing a through road to carlson and that's located along the top of the screen that way so what that did is that provided access continual access as well as a continual sidewalk running from morris thomas throughout the site all the way over to carlson road back at that time planning and zoning did recommend approval from a 4-3 vote and then it moved on to the city council at that point which was approved for a 5-0 so once again back in july of 2021 this project had received preliminary approval of a different scenario [26:30] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** same number of lots same number of units but it had a different roadway configuration the applicant has been looking at this further uh through the last months and has come forward to the city to propose what you see in the screen this evening here uh what he's doing is once again the same layout that he had before but in this case instead of a through road going to carlson he's proposing to terminate that roadway in what's known as a hammerhead that's in the north portion of the property there at that point the sidewalk would also terminate uh there'd be only work going in that carlson road right of way would be the water line that's the blue line that you see right here [27:17] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** so um there's many different parts there's going to be three different um essentially steps this evening associated with this uh project the first thing that we're talking about this evening is the preliminary pud moving on to that will be the preliminary plot and then finally there'll be a special use permit for it so i'll just talk a little bit about this application before us this evening what the applicant is proposing basically the water is coming from morris thomas that's this blue line moving throughout this development or proposed development and then heads to the north where it loops back into carlson road at that point the uh it's a basically a looped water system which is beneficial [28:04] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** as far as the water pressure associated with this area with the development as far as sanitary sewer goes the applicant is proposing on taking at the bottom portion of the screen adjacent to keene creek running it in this large about 12 acre wetland area through here and then moving its way towards the east where it then hooks into the actual roadway associated with this project so what i also point out here too is the number of lots associated with this uh this area is zoned r3 the developer is proposing for planet development which are allowed in any of our zoning districts the rationale why he was looking at a planning development there's a couple [28:49] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** aspects the first was these lots along the top here lots one through thirteen those are a little bit smaller than the r3 required lots in an r3 zoning district it's a one-half acre lot size these are a little bit smaller these are coming in probably around 18 000 square feet so just you know under sub under half of the acre that way so that was the first part associated with this plant unit development the second part was by pursuing this pud the applicant is looking to construct four twin home buildings in this portion of the site right here it's located in the interior of this actual site per se it's uh basically boarded on both sides [29:37] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** by the roadway and once again it'll be building one building two building three and then building four associated with that so the plan unit development also allows for the mixing of different housing types associated with it uh the remainder of the lots in this development these lots basically on the other side of the of the curve in the road at the end of the cul-de-sac as well as these two lots on this side as well as a lot that's going to take frontage off of um okay strum those are all at least a half acre in size so once again the plaintiff development allows for the ability to uh look at a different you know configuration of lots different type of um [30:22] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** products associated with that in this case it's a mix of single family home and some twin homes associated with it if you recall being the planning and zoning we went through a brand new planned unit development ordinance last year and a big portion of that plan unit development was the requirement that a project show a public benefit associated with that project now in the case of the previously approved project that had the through road and the sidewalk going out to carlson that was viewed as a public benefit the fact that we had a connection road that could benefit the health safety for any emergency vehicles coming through here and allowed two points of ingress and [31:08] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** egress to this development provided a better traffic flow that way and then also the the big thing is being that continual sidewalk not only did that sidewalk serve uh future residents of this subdivision but it also tied into johnson road where a person on johnson road or the surrounding neighborhoods through there could access that sidewalk move throughout this proposed subdivision and then connect into the city's trail system just on the south side of morris thomas so with this new application that's before us with the termination of that through road into a hammerhead as well as no sidewalk being proposed there that the developer has is lost that public benefit aspect of it [31:54] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** that it's just everything is tied internally into this development that way so given that staff is not recommending this project as seen before us this evening staff is recommending that the original approvals from last year continue to move forward with the through road onto carl onto johnson with that continued sidewalk system going through there as well as you realize from reading your staff report there's been a lot of discussions on this property and in this project and staff is looking at a potential alternative once again it's not our recommendation it's just a potential alternative [32:42] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** in lieu of that construction of the carlson road extension and that sidewalk that the applicant instead construct a 10 foot wide paved trail running from johnson road to this hammerhead area that would be a 10 foot wide trail paved with gates on both ends of it similar to what you see on our park just to the south there in addition to that as part of his sanitary sewer work on this lower portion of the site that instead of backfilling with the native soil material that he actually provides clean fill associated with that and then a gravel surface that gravel surface would run the length of [33:28] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** the sanitary sewer and then connect up to that hammerhead so what that would do then is that would essentially create a combination of a paved and a gravel surface trail that now does provide a public benefit for this potential project that way once again that is not staff's recommendation staff's recommendation is to proceed as we had been approved last year but this is a potential alternative to that should planning and zoning wish to consider it [34:10] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you for all that eric commission members any questions or thoughts or comments on this before we uh hear from the applicant and from anybody else that would like to speak this evening [34:19] **Corey Colquist:** i do have a question regarding the sewer line so if i understand you right the applicant would have to put gravel the entire length from morris thomas all the way over to the carlson road for that whole sewer line is that is that what you just said [34:33] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** it's actually it's a essentially yes it's gravel from morris thomas to that hammerhead on the west side on the east side of that what's in that known as the carlson road right-of-way that would actually be a paved section through there so that would be approximately 500 feet of paved surface running from johnson road to this hammerhead and then at that point it'd pick up another plus or minus 2 000 lineal feet of gravel surface running down towards the south and the west where then it would essentially align with the city's trail to the south of that [35:36] **Corey Colquist:** okay so i guess i'm not clear why does that need to be done with the hammerhead solution opposed to if we did the carlson road option then he would not have to do that gravel for the sewer line [35:48] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** that is correct that is correct it would be our preference that he did but at this point we would we're essentially offering an option a or an option b that a is the construction of carlson road in the sidewalk as previously approved or b in order to have a public benefit that he construct the things that i just spoke to [36:09] **Corey Colquist:** and i guess eric to follow up on that so the green line running across the screen is where there will be a path of some sort [36:16] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** that is correct yes all the way up and okay [36:20] **Corey Colquist:** so was this something a solution it just seems i guess a little different to me that we would require something like that when we already had a solution that worked it could i guess could you speak to that a little bit why did the plan change i guess why did the plan change as far as the hammerhead you mean [36:34] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** correct believe that the applicant um through um as we all know that there's been a number of residents that are concerned about carlson road punching through and i believe in basically mr zeardon was at these meetings he heard a number of the residents speak and he has looked at that further and that essentially is his um response to the what he heard from the neighbors at that time but once again we have a we have an approved project already on this and what the applicant is doing is he's gearing it back he's he's essentially he's proposing less than what's already been approved and so that was [37:19] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** staff's rec staff's thoughts was if he's going to go the less route then he needs to provide that gravel trail surface as well as that paved travel surface he's once again we have an approved project and he's trying to do less than what he's been approved for [37:37] **Corey Colquist:** okay can we have him speak to this i guess i just that's a huge expense to a developer um and getting back to i mean the city our intention when we met a year ago and went through all this is we wanted to end the dead ends and here we are creating one so i guess i'm just a little taken back as to why we would be doing that after we went through a lengthy process saying we wouldn't do this anymore [37:57] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** sure exactly i think maybe what we'll do is go through the rest of uh any questions from yeah we'll see if any of the commission members have any other questions before we hear from the applicant this evening [38:15] **Buckley Simmons:** simmons with a question as far as how many of these hammerheads are in the city right now [38:21] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** how many hammerheads yes there's very few i mean traditionally you see these terminated in a cul-de-sac right versus a hammerhead um when this was first shown to the city uh we spoke with public works and they said if this was to happen a hammerhead is a little bit easier to maintain versus a cul-de-sac okay just be able to uh back in and out that way and and once again i'm going to kind of gear back more to mr colquist's comments you know i said we're talking about with the staff recommendation because they said yes we went through a lot last year and in our ordinance there's there's three specific sections within our ordinance that directly speak to through roads uh the big one being is permanent cul-de-sacs will not exceed a length of 500 feet and this obviously exceeds exceeds that this is probably more in the means of clocking in around 900 almost a thousand lineal feet now are there other cul-de-sacs within the city of that length yes there are but in a lot of those instances where we have the ability to is we require that there's a future road stub that that subdivision could access land to joining it and that's what had happened when the valley view division was planted is there was this open section of land through here and carlson road extension was planted at that time to be able to get into the interior of the site and so 25 years later can't do my math but 25 years later that's when that opportunity came to connect the dots in a plat that was envisioned back in 96 and once again that you know there's there's three four different instances within the ordinance that support why a through road should happen versus another cul-de-sac or a hammerhead thank you [40:32] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** commission members any other questions or conversation on this before we invite the applicant to come up and see us [40:40] **John Geissler (City Councilor):** mr chair i just have a couple of comments um just reminding everybody when this was approved it was tied amongst the commission and i cast the the deciding vote um since then i've thought a lot about this i've listened to a lot of the neighbors discussion talked to mr zeardon and mr colquest you asked why i think the biggest reason why is hearing from the neighborhood that neighborhood doesn't really they don't mind the development but don't mind don't want this extra traffic we talked about the the added benefit of the trail and i think that the hammerhead is a good solution i've kind of a year later been rethinking this i think the hammerhead's a good solution i do think the connecting link from the hammerhead to the johnson road is a good idea paved trail with the gates i think we've all seen how nice that trail is the gates would be there for an emergency vehicle etc um i'm not totally sold and i'm only one of us five city councilors i'm not totally sold on the gravel trail portion we have applied for some grants for that work so there is possible some other funding again we got option a b or maybe there's a c we do the hammerhead and the connecting link to the johnson road and maybe there's some shared use or something with that the backfill of that of that rather than putting all the backfill onto the to the developer uh maybe there's an option there for uh it's too bad we couldn't get grant money right now to help do that but uh i guess long story is is that i've kind of backtracked on my thought about through street and i think mr zerton came to the council and told the council what his intentions were and i think the council is largely in support of that again i'm one of five i know i am and i think there's a couple others that are so um just as you're thinking about that again a recommending board will go to the council for final approval so and i think you know eric's point of we had a we had a approved project well that's part of the the preliminary in the final is that there's some time to rethink it listen to the neighborhood etc and i think the neighborhood has spoken and i think we're going to hear from tonight again that i think in general i think they like this and then the last thing with the hammerheads um it's ironic that we are as a city going to close take out a bridge on the lindau road and create two hammerheads on the lindal road so it does happen the city is doing it so again just kind of ironic that it's all happening it's that's project will happen the bridge is closed but possibly the hammerheads will be built next year and a more permanent solution so so it does happen um so that's just kind of my thoughts and and uh as we were so maybe there's an option c that we we do the hammerhead and the trail to the johnson road and then maybe try to let the city and the developer work out some sort of a shared agreement with the rest of the sewer line i have one last question for eric does that sewer line come out that would cro is that matching the trail that's already constructed on the other side of this [44:14] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** fairly close what we would do is and once again we'd have to look at the engineering because it obviously it's meeting at an angle yep we have the ability to come in flatter or straight line that way [44:24] **John Geissler (City Councilor):** all right so those are my thoughts and comments on it so thank you for that [44:31] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** commission members any other questions or comments before we i have a i was um happy to see this i do think that the pay trail is necessary um i think that that's a minor expense in some ways i know it's not in in dollars but to help the city but on the other hand we do have a lot of neighbors that are important too and that's part of what some of the give and takes of some of these things have to be as long as we're meeting them most of the criteria um i really like the idea of the hammerhead there and then eliminating the idea of having as much going on to the other road that that was that that's difficult but i think that that the paved trail would be very good for the community at least thank you for that [45:32] **Valerie Roulette:** yeah kind of going off what counselor geisler said um going back to part of the original problem with the johnson road issue is that road was rebuilt in 2020 and it was rebuilt extremely narrow so in a sense we've kind of created our own problem here because the whole community in that neighborhood feels it's unsafe to have the additional traffic on that road because that road is so narrow so in looking at that to now and then a year later in june last spring come and say okay now we're going to add all this additional travel traffic on this narrow little road that we just built seems seems kind of like not a really great plan um i think the addition of the hammerhead is a perfect solution it'll be attractive there'll be a nice trail there it'll be linking to the new development but i too kind of question why the the whole sewer line would have to be the developer's responsibility to gravel over it for the trail all the way out to morris thomas that if he didn't have to do that before i don't understand why he would have to do that now but i think to the the fact that the whole community 100 of the neighborhood did signed a petition um against the original carlson road design i think this is a great compromise if they're willing to go along with us on that trying to be representing the city adequately as well as the the residents [47:35] **Samuel Clark:** yeah just to kind of take off valerie and mr geisler i personally remember being not impressed with the community response and the petition with i believe unanimous support on johnson and portland road not to stop the development but to work be able to work and come up with a compromise they did provide a lot of detailed information such as the road was undersized they had information from st louis county showing that the road wouldn't isn't appropriate to serve the amount of vehicles that it would uh they were willing to meet with the developer me with the city um i agree with the sentiment that i don't understand why the gravel trail would be appropriate i do i would be supportive of the paved trail connecting johnson and uh the hammerhead if it was not opposed by the residents and they had worked with uh mr zeardon the expense of the gravel seems almost kind of arbitrary at this point since i think from the maintenance you know longevity etcetera might not make the most sense uh i do agree with mr geisser that if you could work in the future towards some sort of grant and maybe pave that or make a part of the trail system that could be a public benefit and then i also would just like to say i'm personally i've been on the commission now for over two years i had the opportunity to sit on a meeting that was publicly locally televised with a community opposition and i've never seen a the city not recommend the citizens of hermantown working with a developer to come up with a compromise that just personally was a little bit interesting to me thank you for those thoughts [49:33] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** anybody else [Music] mr bolf or jake to speak on this at all as the city engineer on the hammerhead option versus the road going through [49:43] **David Bolf (City Engineer):** oh so planning commission we at the staff level we've had multiple discussions about about this project and you know i i i really really echo what um erica said about the road going through and for for a number of reasons one is the the commission in the council in the mid 90s had the vision that that carlson road would go through and serve uh this this property to per our zoning code we have three reasons to support the road going through and not you know not creating the cul-de-sac or a hammerhead option third is there's approximately 30 homes and you know if if you generate four to six trips a home you know you're you're about 200 cars 200 trips in my estimation in the county traffic engineers estimation we would estimate 80 of that traffic would go to a morris thomas road so you're at adding you know 20 of 200 about 40 to 50 cars [Music] spread out through the course of the day and in my opinion johnson road can easily support another 40 to 50 cars throughout the day um in discussions with the county engineer he the the traffic engineer excuse me he had great opposition to allowing a connection to morris thomas at all he wanted it to come up oprah strum and the carlson and we um after his further discussions he kind of you know softened his um position on that so you know i know this is you know very um contentious on what we should do here you know at the stop level we're we're holding with our recommendation but eric you know presented in an option that um it based on the comments from the commission it feels like that may be the the path that we're we're going and if if that's the just if that's going to be the recommendation of council then um we're okay with that so i guess i'll leave it that um if there's you know any further questions from uh the applicant or the public i'll be here to help answer their questions thank you very much [53:01] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** commission members any other questions or comments before i invite mr zirin [Zierden] to come up uh practically speaking why would anybody take johnson road i'm looking at the map out of this maybe to the north because carlson goes right to haynes right so that'd be the fastest [Music] no no i should that's why i asked the question that's why i'm asking the question maybe you'll never shut it down um [Music] i i don't want to lose control over the meeting this evening yet but uh yes that is you guys are right that is not where that road ends up that's for sure okay mr sieren [Zierden] i guess you're up next coming up jay state your name and address for the record please tell us why you're looking at making these alterations to your already approved plan [54:10] **Jay Zierden (Applicant):** just to be clear uh our proposal is what you have in front of you it's a development with a hammerhead it's not a development with a hammerhead and a trail or compact itself okay the city from this project will collect forty five thousand dollars in park and recreation fees it will collect more than fifty thousand dollars annually in uh property taxes if the city wants a paved trail they should use those funds to do that trail if not they can give me those funds for the next 10 years i'd be happy to build a trailer but to be clear my proposal is with the hammerhead period not building trails okay there's not part a part b if if you guys aren't interested in this project it goes on a shelf maybe i sell them in eight acre chunks and walk away from it but it's not it's not a hammerhead and a trail or a hammerhead or a hammerhead of a road our proposal is a hammerhead period as you see it if you've read any building journal or article on barriers to affordable housing in the state of minnesota in the last five years it is very clear that cities and municipalities are adding costs to developers which is a main point driving costs for housing and this is a clear and varying example let's have the developer build a public trail it's observed i don't have anything else to say unless somebody has any questions [55:54] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** i do have one jay and that is i mean it was approved last year with the road connection and why coming back with the hammerhead now just because of the neighborhood [Music] [56:08] **Jay Zierden (Applicant):** okay honestly that road is i didn't really look at it but not only is it narrow the ditches are clips if you're walking a dog and need to step off for a car it's not even possible so go look at the road it's not just narrow top the ditches are ridiculous they're absurd so i agree adding any traffic to that road it's unnecessary it does it does nothing for my project and it it it hurts all these people so if we can make everybody happy with this let's do that [56:45] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** cash members any questions for mr zeardon [56:51] **Samuel Clark:** sam clerk no questions but i do appreciate your willingness to work with the uh the residents [Music] thank you for that [Music] [57:05] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** we're going to open up the floor at 7 59 for a public meeting anybody would like to come up and speak please state your name and address for the record [57:15] **Tony Marino (Public):** my name is tony marino 3760 johnson road um first of all i'd like to thank jay zurden [Zierden] for submitting an alternate plan and all the council members comments here it's kind of music to our ears as a neighborhood i think it's a perfect example as i told you last month of a developer listening to the needs of the community and adjusting his plan so that all uh all parties can be happy with the outcome um i also agree with everybody that just said the cost for the trail shouldn't be put on the developer you know in right now in fact going back to what eric johnson was saying the city has been planning this trail system since the mid 90s enough so that they put a uh easement across the back of a lot of these properties here so this has been in a in the works for a long time and through that whole process the city has applied for grants to cover the costs of these trails and if if the city is going to try to transfer that cost to jay zierden we all know how that works it gets transferred to the people that have yet to buy the lots you know when you put all the other costs that the city is charging you know park delineation fees bedroom fees you know hooking up sewer water you've already probably put 25 000 under the cost of a lot and making it very expensive to build in our city i believe you all had a picture put up on your thing there those are pictures i took this winter of the trail as it goes south up the morris thomas road that trail was plowed beautifully all winter long it doesn't get the traffic all right they did a great job on our road all winter long but the hiking trail or my monthly use trail was clear as can be all winter if you look on the left-hand picture there you can see that at some point the city came in there with a apparently a very large vehicle with a wing blade and winged the furrows back you know to open up for future plowing that tells me that they have the confidence that that road is is able to handle heavy traffic so um i think mr kolk was asked why why this change now simple because at the first meeting last june there was no other options you know all the discussion of how it was going to be was done between the city and the developer and quite frankly the developer was being told that he had to put the carlson road extension in by the city staff it's not something that he proposed he was being forced to he's heard our pleas and and he's re-examined it and he's come up with an alternate plan that ties in very well with the plan city trail system in fact on the city website it shows section 7 to be paid for by future grant monies not by mr zierden or by transfer future residents of the city um so i'm here to ask you to approve plan b as it's called without any conditions thank you sir [1:00:36] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** anybody else like to please come on up and state your name and address for the record man [1:00:49] **Lisa Smith (Public):** hi i'm lisa smith 3761 johnson road on behalf of all of the residents of portland and johnson roads i'd like to thank jay um he heard us he paused and he rethought his design for the planned unit development that he's proposing at king creek jay heard and it's important for all involved to remember that every household of johnson and portland roads signed this petition last summer asking that the extension of carlson road not be included in the pud by signing the petition which was presented last summer we were asking to be heard our roads had just been reconstructed resulting in a narrow 20-foot wide road for johnson road and design and safety concerns for the curve at the portland and johnson road junction last summer i shared data from st louis county's road design standards for plants and subdivisions within st louis county [Music] that data estimates that a subdivision of 21 to 30 units will produce a traffic impact of up to 150 cars per day and that road must meet the minimum design standard of 24 feet wide that traffic is the traffic game that we're trying to avoid for our newly constructed and narrowly designed 20-foot road which unfortunately does not meet minimum design standards for our own neighborhood in essence the new development could double the traffic count for the johnson and portland roads so the city wants a life safety solution for the king creek planned unit development we as residents suggest that by taking the grant funded segment of the monger trail spur which is already planned to be located at the corner of johnson and portland roads and moving it to the carlson road easement the city gains the public safety solution for its emergency vehicle access also by moving that segment as it's now planned away from the currently planned location and moving it to the carlson road easement you remove the danger to pedestrians who would utilize that section of the trail since it won't be located at the dangerous junction of that johnson and portland road curve creating a trail rather than a road eliminates what would be a double traffic load to our neighborhood it preserves safety it saves overall cost and it even enhances both the king creek planned unit development and the johnson portland neighborhood everyone benefits from this simple shift in a thought process which is a common sense solution current residents future residents and the city gained by this solution we're asking that you vote yes to jay's revised king creek development as he has submitted it thanks for hearing me [1:03:32] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you very much ma'am would anybody else like to come up and speak this evening sir please come up state your name and address for the record [1:03:53] **Bart Smith (Public):** yes my name is bart smith 3761 johnson road actually it was 27 years ago when the valley view plot was designed 26 years ago lisa my wife and i were working with the city looking at that and what the vision of what outlook 8 was and i can tell you what the city told us then it was so that a lot was not landlocked that was the envision they told us we built our house based on that information i just want to say i was very happy to see the modification application that jay submitted the city is stating a local resident neighborhood only is concerned with tarleton road extension is about to increase traffic however with increased vehicle traffic is a concern that real issues are that our daily health and life safety is at risk we all know that our road is created at a 20-foot width uh and the deep distance are a risk for walking on that road the king creek trail subdivision currently proposed by jay meets the requirements that a pdu must provide public benefit to the surrounding neighborhood the carlson road extension recommendation provides no benefit for our existing neighborhood to support this statement please reference the petition opposing carlson road extension submitted last year by to the city please do not negatively impact the health life safety of our neighborhood by requiring the carlson road extension be built thank you [1:05:25] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you very much please come up state your name and address for the record [1:05:37] **Jim Samberg (Public):** my name is jim samberg 3789 johnson rose [Road] hello commissioners uh members of city concord [Councilor] heisler [Geissler] and hermantown officials i'd like to start by reading from chapter 11 of the city of kermit down zoning code planned unit development specifically section 1105 public benefits a pud must provide public benefits to the surrounding neighborhood and to the city above and beyond what it can be reasonably achieved by application of the zoning provisions applicable to the underlying zoning district i'd like to say that the carlson road extension doesn't bring any benefit to johnson and portland road if that i mean other than the more traffic and wear and tear on our two-year-old road i haven't heard from this commission i have heard from this commission that it would make it better a better neighborhood and good for the city i would like to strongly disagree with that statement i have heard it's a safety issue but we as a neighborhood have done our research on that and find that new development would be just as safe without the carlson grove i have heard utilities and services as a reason for the carlson road extension i think if cul-de-sacs and hammerheads developments are built by the city codes utilities and city services should have all the access that's needed that's the way we need to build those i have heard it would be better for the new residents of the development i would like to disagree with this also the cul-de-sac and the hammerhead keeps streets and sidewalks safe for residents and children and also create nice quiet safe neighborhoods we have had the opportunity to visit with mr zeardon and mr reeds and the carlson road extension didn't seem to matter to him or them if it was put in at all i also have heard about making all new developments in the city have an inline outlet i personally think that each new development should be looked at individually as it would be best for the future residents the existing residents with connecting roads and what's best for the developer in the city i know three if not four city officials that are pushing the carlson road extension the residents of johnson and portland roads have signed 100 petition which you've heard against this extension if the residents don't want it and the builder isn't for it or against it why would city officials and commission members be pushing for it i did hear some reasons for mr bull [Bolf] with access to the new city trail from johnson road and the new development what benefits does the carlson road extension have other than increased traffic and safety issues on small quiet johnson and portland roads a neighbor of mine kathleen johnson lives at 4721 johnson road she's 80 years old and doesn't drive much and doesn't have access to a computer she called me and asked me to speak on her behalf if i may may i [1:08:44] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** that's absolutely fine sir okay [1:08:46] **Jim Samberg (Public):** she has signed the petition and wants to know if this if hermantown city officials and commission members listen to the people of hermantown anymore or if they're just interested in more tax dollars to me mrs johnson sounds like she hit the nail on the head when there are only a few city officials pushing the carlson road extension she said she is strongly against this extension also i would also like to thank mr xerden and mr wheats for taking the time to visit with visit with us on this issue we wish both of them well with their development also thanks to all of you who are here tonight for listening to our concerns and i hope that these concerns will help you make a just decision on this matter and one more thing on the 30 to 40 cars they're 40 to 50 cars a day that's a lot on johnson road that's a lot i know the road can handle it but it's a lot on our road and we don't we don't want that traffic we're going to get some anyways from that development it's going to come on mars thomas and turn on johnson anyways people do it all the time they use it as a shortcut from haynes road to morris thompson so i live there i'm out there a lot i see it now i don't i would sooner not have any more traffic on that road so i thank you all for your time [1:10:15] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you very much sir anybody else this evening like to come up and speak at the microphone come on up please state your name and address for the record [1:10:28] **Joe Pike (Public):** hi i'm joe pike 3729 johnson road um my question is actually regarding the acreage of the lots that are kind of along the east side there behind my property how how large are those lots [1:11:03] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** they're less than a half acre record but that is correct they are less than a half acre i want to say they're approximately 16 to 18 000 square feet [1:11:10] **Joe Pike (Public):** and what is that in acres is it like a quarter acre [1:11:12] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** no 0.4 plus or minus [1:11:14] **Joe Pike (Public):** okay just quick math sure i mean my concern is i'll admit a little selfish that my view behind my house is going to be a wall of identical looking houses packed as tightly together as you can in undersized lots and if i had one issue with this development beyond the carlson road because if given the choice between you know a development with the carlson road extension and a development without the carlson road extension i'm absolutely going to pick the one without the carlson road extension but the development in general irks me in that way because i don't understand the methodology and the logic behind allowing that that development to go in with the undersized lots why have the rule in the first place is my concern that half acre limit just seems arbitrary and completely ignored and that's frustrating because it is going to very much change you know what i see when i look up my back window it's it's going to be different and different isn't always bad but in this case i think it might be bad that's that's all i have to say thanks everyone [1:12:12] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you sir anybody else like to come up and speak in the microphone tonight please coming up state your name and address for the record [1:12:35] **Jake Perry (Public):** hi i'm jake perry i live on 3779 johnson road um i'd like to thank jason [Jay] for working with our community i think it's pretty uh impressive to me i haven't been a part of a lot of these meetings in the past other places i've lived or here but to see our community come together and put together what they have um and to work with the developer with the city i think that's pretty encouraging and i think it would mean a lot to see this approved to kind of reiterate that working with the city that they care about what we're saying and what we think as a community i agree with all the statements that my neighbors have made previously but especially the traffic and like we stated how narrow the road is and steep the ditches are like mr zircon [Zierden] said um my wife and i have a 20 month old son and we like to walk on the road uh quite a bit and if you've been on this road before it's kind of a road where if you're driving and another car is coming you have to slow down and kind of move over because there really isn't enough room and if you look at it when there's snow on there or if you got a you guessed vehicle driving down the road it's even worse um so to add even the 40 or 50 cars of traffic which i also don't agree with i think it'll be more because people are cutting through there if they're coming from the mall area that's going to be a lot put on the road that's already undersized something also i guess that was noted that was kind of discussed amongst our community was how there was a 0.5 sales tax increase that would be coming for the city partially to go to trails so i think that along with the grant funding would really help fund that 10 foot wide trail for the emergency egress another thing to look at if you look at the trail that's planned by the city to use the grant funding to develop right now they have the trail access coming up to the corner of johnson road where it curves and if you actually walk down there and look at it it's pretty much a steep drop off that goes down quite a bit and if you're looking at it purely from a city cost point i think it's pretty clear that extending that trail instead of at that point to give access but at where the egress would be for the carlson road extension would be quite a bit cheaper for the city as well so um that's all that i have to say there i just i just think this is a great compromise that is all benefits with no downside and it's listening to everybody and and coming up with a good compromise and showing that it matters to engage with the community and with our local government so thank you [1:15:39] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you very much come on up please state your name and address for the record [1:15:44] **Darren Wheats (Developer):** uh darren wheats 3960 paid lane um the first thing the question i got was it seems to all come back to johnson road when that was built and it was under built so i think this is dealing with johnson europe being under bill that's the main thing if it was built even to the specs that we're doing in our development this is a different story and uh i just want to say like being a local guy and yeah it's uh if we're from twin cities this road would be going through to carlson because we wouldn't care uh we care about the residents and what they want it's a good project but as a developer too we're sick to get nickel and dime it's hard to do this stuff and that's all i got to say thank you [1:16:32] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you very much would anybody else like to come up and speak this evening sir please come on up state your name and address for the record [1:16:51] **Public Speaker:** 3775 johnson road i just think this is a great example how community and city and neighbors and contractors can get together and come to a conclusion that that works i think this solution that jay came up with in his team it covers everything it covers the access in and out of johnson road if it's necessary for police fire whatever that may be and that was a big concern early on in discussions um there's access in and out of that neighborhood onto johnson road push traffic that sort of thing i just think this is a great solution and an answer to everybody's issues there so i just want to say thank you for coming up with what he did and thank you all for hearing me thank you [1:17:34] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you very much sir anybody else this evening to come up and speak either for or against the proposal we have in front of us not seeing any i'll close the public hearing now at sorry got technology issue 8 21 pm commission members any other questions or comments or discussion about this mr both if you have any discussions you're welcome to join us [1:18:25] **John Geissler (City Councilor):** mr chairman i would just like some clarification a reminder about the land swap i don't think we talked about that tonight remind us about the land swap and how that affects both the city and the developer [1:18:36] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** yes thank you um i'll use this map here initially so the city owns this approximately two and a half acres of land right here that's out lot eight what the city when they're first approached by mr zeardon on this was there may be the ability to extend his development to the north utilize this outlet a for that purpose now the city has different means of doing that whether it's a purchase by a developer whether it's a land swap a different means that way through the conversations and then the nature of the design is there's a 12 acre outlet that essentially exists through here and i apologize because i'm having trouble getting the other plan up right now so in the staff report it speaks to the city swapping their two and a half acres of land for that 12 plus acres of land here at 12 acres of land um under that outlaw scenario right now it has the existing king creek running through it uh it has a good portion of that is encumbered by a 300 foot shoreland area there's going to be at least three storm water ponds in there and uh predominance of wetlands as well so um you may say it two and a half or 12 doesn't make sense but when you look at the actual potential buildability of that 12 acres it's it's a little bit harder to use so at least that's what is being proposed um should this development go forward uh there'd be uh basically actions by the council approving that land swap of the city-owned property for that outlook associated with it [1:20:41] **John Geissler (City Councilor):** does that answer your question yeah i just don't recall that we talked about it too much and that the developer is gaining some buildable area with this land swap that is correct yes yeah and then the other thing is just remember the all of the work we put in on this pud requirements and the big component was public benefit we talked about parks playgrounds all of those things so just think about that and to me the i know the developer doesn't want to do it but i still think the connection from johnson road in is a good if not a trail a sidewalk or something but public benefit is what the whole idea of the of the pud that we all worked quite hard at so those are my comments thank you counselor geisler [1:21:28] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** yeah i just want to echo that too and mr sandberg i believe you kind of hit on it as well as it talks about overall public benefit and that's what initially that sidewalk connection provided as well and so the applicant is proposing does not have that piece so i mean if pnz somehow was supportive of his application as is that you know to meet that public benefit component overall public benefit there should be some kind of connection going down that carlson road thank you [1:22:15] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you eric uh mr bolf i just have a quick question as well uh just from my own curiosity if that hammerhead was to be built let's say as it's proposed could it potentially someday go through [1:22:24] **David Bolf (City Engineer):** absolutely as long as the right-of-way exists is not vacated it would have a you know potential to go through yeah [1:22:31] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** so if it became a you know a need you know you could prove that there was a need for that road to go through it could be added at a later date yes [1:22:42] **David Bolf (City Engineer):** there's also a very large parcel that they could sell to a developer that would want to put that road through the parcel to the west 3770 orchestra road i mean that that so that right away is still going to be there and that road could go through at some other time [1:23:01] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** and john if i could pick your brain real quick i might seem a little strange but i think there's other developments in the city that have been designed with the future in mind you know it might be five years it might be 10 years it might be 20 years before the neighboring property has been purchased and the road has been extended so to speak i mean even in my short time of planning in zoning here which is 11 or 12 years something like that i mean i've seen multiple projects come before us one would be my neighborhood was built in sections like that i live in the jackson estates neighborhood you know they pushed in the first road then they pushed in the second road then they pushed in the third road and pretty soon we were like we need another way out of this neighborhood we can't get you know there's too many cars driving around that they've got to get in and out of i just want to make sure that we're not locking the the future abilities of this neighborhood to be tied into the existing infrastructure there because somebody obviously had the wherewithal to put that road extension in years ago or that proposed road extension in years ago to unlock this parcel i mean i go back and i look and i go what if johnson road was being added to alexander road today would we have all this fight you know what if johnson road was the new road today and alexander road was there would everybody on alexander road be here tonight fighting johnson road because i haven't heard from anybody from alexander road they all connect correct that's that's my point they all connect eventually correct except for the at what is it is it portland right it goes around to portland there right sure absolutely sir i'm just trying to educate myself a little bit more please come up please give your name and address again for the record [1:25:02] **Tony Marino (Public):** tony marino 3760 johnson road um what you were just saying is i've been kind of waving my hand back here because i wanted to say the same thing there's projects going on in this city um i think peyton acres is one that eventually is going to be connected correct with the development of the northwoods properties and stuff like that that's exactly right what we're asking the city to do and maybe we haven't made it real clear here today you know there's there's already a planned trail system through this whole uh space between johnson road and oakerstrom that's going to get built okay just like the connections from paid makers on east what we're just suggesting here is let jay zirin build a hammerhead okay and when the grant monies come through and they continue the trail they use the carlson road access for that portion of the trail that right now is scheduled to be up on the power or the sewer line that runs from the corner of portland and johnson over to ochre strum i've looked at the maps and you know i mean i have it on my phone even but so i think the city's been working on this trail system for a lot of years and they need the land swap to get the permission to put the trail through that 12 acre outlet that they're getting in exchange for the two and a half acre once they have that the city can go ahead and get the grants moving and we can have the trail built north and south of paying walls east and west hopefully on the carlson road to the johnson and on the sewer line down to uh the openstream road and with a little forethought you know we're talking about maybe a 450 foot section of trail that would be from the johnson road to the hammerhead okay that could be designed maybe to a little bit higher standard than the rest of the trail system so that it would easily accommodate emergency vehicles you know the gates that are down there are built so they can have basically shear bolts in them so they could be bumped and opened up and now you've got your emergency access in so as some of my neighbors have stated the carlson road has no benefit to the johnson road neighborhood the trail does the trail adds to it it also adds to the alexander road because many people from the alexander road they walk the loop on a regular basis they walk it with their dogs they walk it with strollers and and being a narrow road that's one of the reasons we don't want the added traffic to it so we can we can have a benefit to our neighborhood out of this pud by putting the trail in a position where it can also serve as an emergency entrance and exit without adding the traffic to the johnson and portland roads [1:28:16] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** sure i fully comprehend that part of it my my question is making sure that the other land around here has access to be tied into your development [1:28:28] **Tony Marino (Public):** there is no other land nothing at all [1:28:30] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** well i mean in theory you could buy a couple of parcels and put them together 37 30 or some could sell for some developer and they could put the road through where is that land located that would be straight west of the of the carlson road right away [1:28:50] **Tony Marino (Public):** that right away is still going to be there yeah but they can sell the house sell the house to the developer and they can they got looks like 40 acres there because i i know the area pretty well i used to hunt on the land um that is adjacent uh borders behind all the properties um from the carlson road eastman this one's going north on the southern side and back right behind your former the city clerk uh hank said whatever her name was um bonnie yeah her next door neighbor basically owns owns like nine or ten acres and they they bought it for the property that's the only other property that the map is there i'm just saying 37 70 has a lot of acreage they could have nine acres so you could build 18 lots you could put a lot of you could put so there's there's a lot of wetlands in there too i'm just saying that okay well that if we could save that argument for another day right right but that right rail the trail will also be there you know the trail is designed in there you know so it's like i say the plan is in place um jake perry also mentioned as far as the cost goes you know the city's already in the process of getting grants for all this stuff and now you're going to ask the city is going to be asking all the taxpayers for a half a percent sales tax increase for improvements the picner field and ice sheet and trails when all that money is flowing into the city that trail system could be built probably within a few years not five or 10 or 15 years down the road like should i take for the other project up here and we could have all the access for ingress and egress to that development that the city is requiring so the only difference is is this client came along second [1:30:45] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** sure i understand that i just want to make sure that we're not being short-sighted because i've watched lots of developments over the last 10 plus years that like you gave the example of peyton acres that just keep getting extended into the next parcel the next parcel there's usually a way to figure out to make it semi-buildable i just want to make sure we're not shortcutting ourselves in any shape form or fashion i understand the trail system i understand the egress that's why i asked if the hammerhead went in you could extend the road if they ever needed to be to be tied in i understand why you guys don't want it i comprehend all that stuff i just don't want to be short-sighted i guess yep [1:31:26] **Tony Marino (Public):** okay well i know thomas for mike mcguire and his wife that own that land there and it's also a very unique shape and it would be i'm looking at it right now yes regardless of how you try to juggle things yeah but there is a road easement going through there correct that that carlson wrote either it goes to it goes all the way to orchestra no it goes it goes for them right goes to that it goes right to that property though okay all right thank you thank you very much sir [1:32:05] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** and actually i'd like to provide a point of clarification as a number of people talk about grants with the city this particular trail segment i'm all for five i've applied for grants five times to build this trail section and have not received grants and even the sales tax initiative that's an unknown entity as well so when we have the ability to try to create or bite off pieces of these trail systems we try to try to do that where we can and hopefully it's a developer who wants to work with us on those things i just want to provide some clarification that the grants are they're a hard thing to get [1:32:51] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** yeah they're not guaranteed money that's for sure and the problem is too is for instance um we're maybe covering thirty percent of costs with the grant we put pasta trails now so eric do park dedication fees are they available for trail construction [1:33:04] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** they are but they're available but they're for everything i can tell you right now that um park dedication even with hopefully developments like this bring in 40 50 60 000 which is a lot of money but in the case of a trail system it only buys you a couple hundred lineal feet it would might buy you a playground it's a problem i mean right now for instance you know fitner park it's potentially millions of dollars we'll never touch that with park dedication that you have to try to find other means and methods to secure monies to do these things [1:33:48] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** eric where does the current trail system can you just point out on this map where we're trying to get it in and out of this property [1:33:57] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** so right now you can see the trail right there in the south so that puts the vision in the trail master plan is it follows king creek roughly through here gets to the city land at this two and a half acres and i believe as mr marino one of the people had referenced that there is a 20-foot existing easement on the back side of these lots on johnson which goes up to the sewer corridor running through here is there a trail system currently at that sewer corridor no there's not but but one of the grant scenarios we looked at was providing an east-west trail through here connecting ochrestrom connecting johnson running down to the south hooking into this system and then getting back there and once again it's it's it's a great idea have not received any traction from grant agencies to date the overall plan then is to get from this point over to our trail over in the in-walls property whether that's your right-of-way whether it's the back side of this development that's things that staff is going to continue to work on [1:35:10] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** and of the existing trails we currently have in the city how much that has been footed by developers and how much has come in through grants or the city's allocating money too [1:35:21] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** the city received two grants uh one was just a percentage percentage keep it simple okay yeah i don't want to yeah make it hard well it is because there's a number of different funding sources on the private development how much has that contributed to our trail system here in hermantown zero so far because all the all the trails we've built so far have been through public land this is the first instance where we've had that a trail is going through private land and so once again what did it mean to do to try to achieve that so okay [1:36:01] **Corey Colquist:** well yeah i guess just as far as a couple of their comments i want to thank everyone for speaking uh thank the developers jay and buzz i think it's pretty cool you guys went back to the neighborhood and figured out a solution um and working with the city however you know in preparation for this meeting i did drive through and i agree the road is tight and the ditches are steep so i can understand where you guys are coming from and you know that's not your guys's fault it's a product of the circumstance um and so that being said i i can live with the hammerhead although we spent a lot of time trying to avoid those but i also don't feel that this should fall on the developers to foot the bill for um this trail system it just doesn't seem right to me you know i i it sounds like they're gonna have a sidewalk in there is that correct [1:36:50] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** that is not correct they are providing an interior sidewalk only for the development it does not tie into johnson okay it only serves these 29 lots [1:36:59] **Corey Colquist:** okay and i guess i i could live with that and in the future you know with grant money as we've done it it just to me doesn't seem right that the developers should have to pay nor the the neighborhood should have to pay you know we're kind of a tight spot and it's unfortunate but um you know i definitely feel there's a need in the development and i like everything about it and so i'd be in favor of that however i just wouldn't be with uh demanding that developers pay for that trail system [1:37:34] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you for that cory commission members any other uh thoughts or comments [1:37:41] **Commission Member:** i'd like to say it better but i think cory said it for me what corey said appreciate everything that tony and tom and jim the word fight came up and i never once did i hear a fight and i saw the community coming together i think that's what this whole process of knowing so i've got to echo what corey said there too i uh i appreciate what everybody in this room has done tonight and has done for the last year it's not just one time you guys worked hard and i think there's a very very good uh potential alternative here on the table [1:38:15] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** commission members any other thoughts before we look for a vote [1:38:18] **Corey Colquist:** i guess yeah just one more comment eric i appreciate all your time and effort on this um and i just you know the comment you made of a hundred linear feet is gonna cost fifty thousand it just when i look at how big this is um you know and so that just it just doesn't quite seem right and i think there's other ways as it's been you know the sales tax increase that you know may or may not go through grant money and we'll con continue to pursue it um but i guess with that being said if i could make a motion i might need a little bit of help getting through just because it's not as stated but i guess i'd like to make a motion um to approve the application of xerdon [Zierden] builders for the preliminary planned unit development eight lots of twin homes a total 21 single family lots for a total of 29 units on the 33 acres located in the north sea intersection of morris thomas and oakerstrom road with the hammer said hammerhead but without the stipulation of putting a truck in thank you for that we have a first can we get a second or a different motion your choice [1:39:21] **Dante Tomasoni:** thomas 20 seconds go for it [1:39:24] **Valerie Roulette:** okay we'll let i would second that motion [1:39:28] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** okay all in favor [1:39:31] **Commission Members:** aye aye aye aye [1:39:34] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** anybody object motion passes thank you for that mr colquist next up is 5e it's an application by jay zierden of zeardon builders for a preliminary plot for eight lots of twin homes and 21 single-family lots for a total of 29 lots slash units on a 33-acre site located at the northeast intersection of morris thomas [1:39:56] **John Geissler (City Councilor):** jump in real quick i'm sorry these people are leaving this goes to city council and hi guys so june the city council is the ultimate board that decides this this is a recommending board so just want everyone to know that 6 30 on june 6. [1:40:08] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you sorry joe oh you're welcome uh the property is located in our three zoning district [1:40:27] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** just letting the room thin out a little bit oh it's fine thank you i think i lost my microphone it doesn't sound good no it's on oh there's back so this is made easier let's do it again yeah [1:40:53] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** by the vote that you just took because the plot that was submitted obviously mirrors what pnz had just recommended even though this drawing that was submitted doesn't show that so what it is is this this plat with the hammer head so it would be for the 21 single-family homes the eight twin home lots and the outlook a that contains a stormwater pond keane's creek as well as sanitary excuse me sanitary sewer this would not touch then that existing carlson road right away that would remain as part of that existing plat but the city's outlaw a would then be incorporated into this overall development once again that's subject to a land swap agreement between the city and the applicant [1:42:04] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** mitch members any questions or comments on this one this evening [1:42:15] **Valerie Roulette:** no questions or comments i'm concerned or confused on the um shrinking of the lots like he was saying having it be a half acre where did that come into well that was the pud allows that and this is a p first thing we just voted out is the pud right the pud allows for essentially lot standards as proposed so if this came in as a straight plot with an i'm sorry not a plat but a subdivision uh coming into the r3 zoning would have half acre lots this is just the plating of land to reflect that pud okay so that's the difference [1:42:44] **John Geissler (City Councilor):** yes it's still a plea to still be a plaque at the end of the day at the end of the day but it reflects the pud requirements versus the r3 requirements but remember too part of the pud it there's a lot more acreage than just those lots right so by average there's a lot more than a half acre by by lot so that's kind of how the pud process works so i wanted that to be explained because i think that's important for us to all understand that it's not just we're getting away from the half acre not utilizing that rule but there are more square foot square feet to be used um protected in some ways yep no it didn't be developed exactly [1:43:24] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** both yourself and mr geyser explained that well is essentially this this could also be almost called a conservation subdivision right there's 20 29 lots on 36 acres once you include the cities i mean that's greater than one house per i'm sorry each and if you do so yes quick math it's one point two acres per lot right so so that's where i was just i i that's was sort of hanging in the air and i wanted to make sure that we could understand that [1:44:10] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** commercial members any other questions or comments before i open up the floor for public comment not hearing any i'm going to open up the floor at 8 47 p.m would anybody like to come up and speak on this matter this evening sir please come up state your name and address for the record again [Music] [1:44:31] **Joe Pike (Public):** joe pike 3729 johnson road thank you i very much appreciate the clarification thank you eric and thank you bet for bringing that up unfortunately it kind of doesn't help me right if you uh can you scroll to the the page that shows the um the the drawing with you know the boxes for the planned houses in the development two pages down it's the one where the road is wrong okay yeah it's the one where the road is wrong but you can still see that yeah you can see the building area so you can see my name up there if you look really close yep you're in the middle you can see the number of houses all packed in like cord wood there in undersized lots that abut my property that's my concern it essentially is going to create a big tan wall of identical looking homes that isn't going to be super aesthetically pleasing that's the part that concerns me and here earlier point mr peterson about alexander road uh squawking if johnson road were going in today i think a big difference there from my perspective anyway is that this planned development is much much closer to johnson road than johnson road is to alexander road there's a greater distance between alexander and johnson than there is between johnson and this development [1:46:12] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** i think you're right on there there's a little bit more in the distance but you still have back-to-back lots from each road but up to 100 feet or more i would imagine between structures whereas in this case these structures are you know the setbacks are absolutely at the minimum they're packed in there as tight as it can be if it's a 40 foot setback that structure is at a 40-foot line if it's side to side you know 10 feet on each side that's exactly where the property ends and the structure begins that's my concern i guess i'm happy to see the thing go forward as was just voted upon and i'm not going to begrudge the developer for wanting to make money on this endeavor you know that's his job i just don't understand how it benefits the city to ensure that the developer makes money on this project when you know we're circumventing rules to make that that happen for him i guess that's my concern although it sounds like we're we're actually not serving benning [bending] rules right yeah okay well i've aired my grievances i'm happy to see it go forward without the carlson road go through so i'll just be happy and go sit down thanks everyone [1:47:11] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you anybody else like to come sir and speak sir come on up please state your name and address for the record [1:47:18] **Jim Langdon (Public):** hi jim langdon 3733 johnson road i'm in that area too right next to joe i don't know where you went to school and learned your math but the whole project i don't care if there's 2.5 acres per house if you're using team trick [Keene Creek] or whatever i have three lots across the back by lot now in your plan there part is designed i think to try to keep things the same in the neighborhood yes no maybe not i asked this question last time when we were here last year at this time about development in the same size and bit never mind i'm not going to go that way all i'm going to say is i'm disappointed in this plan because i have three lots behind my house now that's not the same type of building if you want to say there's more acreage down because of king crick that doesn't help me at all i have three neighbors now that i didn't have before i think your plan isn't proper thank you [1:48:47] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you very much sir don't forget you can also go see the city council in june eric two and six that's correct okay [1:48:51] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** and if actually i'd just like to point out that each one of these lots is proposed at a 100 foot width that is the r3 generally that's the minimum lot width that we have in our r3 zoning these lots just aren't as deep that you would see under a half acre scenario they still have the setbacks associated with it so in all actuality you know if this was a straight up plat not platinum just an r3 go under standard zoning it would look just about the same these lots would be a little deeper right but there'd still be a 100 feet marching down so just just to say that the pud in this case these are smaller lots of 16 5 to eighteen thousand versus twenty one thousand once again though but these are hundred foot wide just like we see in the r3 [1:50:06] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** and eric maybe you could give us a little bit more clarification i mean in theory i mean you could have something else in here designed not just single family homes correct you have more duplexes or triplexes under the pud scenario correct [1:50:18] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** exactly and that's what you're seeing in this area right here you can see the boxes you know the common wall one building two building three building four correct but in theory the whole development could be like syria could yes exactly that's correct you could have 67 foot lots across that that is correct right i mean the city we've approved a pud that has 5000 square foot lots yep so okay thank you for that it allows us to set those standards [1:50:39] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** would anybody else like to speak on this matter this evening if you want to please come on up state your name and address for the record not seeing any i'll close the public hearing at 5 or at 8 53 in the evening we've got 5e before us commission members any other questions or comments before we look for a motion i'll look for a motion then please [1:51:09] **Commission Member:** mr chair i approve uh prime i move to approve agenda item 5e as stated [Music] [1:51:19] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** would that be correct eric that's what we're looking for yes it is thank you can we get a second please [1:51:24] **Buckley Simmons:** summons with a second [1:51:27] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** all in favor aye aye aye anybody opposed not hearing any the motion passes moving on to 5f it's an application by jay zierden of zeardon builders for a special use permit for the grading and filling within a natural shoreline environment shoreland area associated with keene creek for the purpose of constructing six lots of twin homes and four single-family lots for a total of 10 lots slash units on a portion of an overall 33-acre site located at the northeast sect intersection of morris thomas road and orchestra road the property is located in r3 zoning district eric what do you have for us on this one [1:52:16] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** great thank you so if you recall back to almost two hours ago we had almost a similar conversation so in this case the blue line at the bottom portion of the screen is king creek as i talked about previously there is a 300 foot offset of that on both sides for shoreland area now in the case of this property as well there's another unnamed tributary that the dnr has uh basically through their work has identified that parallels uh morris thomas road it looks good so that 300 foot is set back not only from king creek but as well from that unnamed tributary so what you're seeing here the cross hatched area in green are the number of lots that are affected in the shoreland area now in both cases they would be able to meet the um the building setback as well and then in the same requirements apply as far as the least amount of time possible for disturbed soil etc that way thank you for that [1:53:19] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** eric commission members any questions or comments on 5f this evening not hearing any initially i'll open up the floor for a public hearing at 8 56 in the evening if anybody would like to come up and speak on 5 f this evening that would be wonderful not seeing any we'll close the public hearing at 8 56 in the evening as well commission members any last comments or questions on 5f not hearing any i look for a motion please [1:54:02] **Dante Tomasoni:** thomas sony moves to approve five as stated [1:54:05] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you very much can we get a second [1:54:07] **Corey Colquist:** colquist with a second [1:54:09] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you for that all in favor aye motion passes moving on number six continuing business eric do we have anything on that this evening [1:54:19] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** no continuing business [1:54:21] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** uh number seven new business anything on that this evening [1:54:23] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** yup i'm not gonna let you off that easy come on so the city is in the process of going through our uh community that's why i'm blanking now it's been a long night [Laughter] comprehensive plan process uh the city has received four applications from different planning firms uh as part of that there's going to be twofold is there'll be a we're discussing internally at least the interview process how many um outside people are we going to utilize for that members of png members city council we're still trying to figure that out but for sure there's going to be for lack of better words of steering committee once the um once the um the consultant is chosen so we're looking at probably upwards of maybe 10 people total and i could see from at least this board that there could be one or two people to basically serve in that in that steering committee here as well so this is a little bit in its infancy we've not identified total numbers yet but i just want to you know give everybody that quick update that uh probably at our june meeting we'd be looking at one or two of you to potentially volunteer to be on that committee as well thank you for that [1:55:40] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** eric uh number eight communications do you have anything that i'm not aware of [1:55:46] **Eric Johnson (Community Development Director):** no there's none thank you for that [1:55:49] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** number nine commission member reports myself i have nothing corey colquist [1:55:54] **Corey Colquist:** no report [1:55:56] **Valerie Roulette:** valley roulette [1:55:57] **Samuel Clark:** samuel clark no report [1:55:59] **Beth Winslow:** beth no report [1:56:01] **Buckley Simmons:** buckley simmons no report [1:56:03] **Dante Tomasoni:** dante thomasoni [1:56:05] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** and counselor geisler [1:56:08] **John Geissler (City Councilor):** well some people call the planning and zoning commission the junior city council so if you want to step up to the next level there are two two positions uh up for vote on the city council this fall um i know one will not be running at all she's moving the other one i don't believe is going to be so i think there's going to be two open seats uh what's weird is that uh the vote is in november but the filing period is right now from the 17th to the 31st so if you're interested uh you can come talk to the city clerk inflation hits everything it used to be two bucks now it's five bucks so if anybody wants to do it i bet you you could break your piggy bank get the five bucks and duane hoffman had paid for my two bucks the first time did he really he did yeah anyways but uh that so the filing period is open through the 31st if you're interested or know of anybody uh the city clerk can uh get that paperwork taken care of so um that's it [1:57:12] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** thank you for that really appreciate it um i look for a motion to adjourn [1:57:17] **Buckley Simmons:** simmons with a motion to adjourn can i get a second [1:57:19] **Beth Winslow:** second winslow [1:57:21] **Joe Peterson (Chair):** all in favor meeting adjourned that's nine o'clock in the evening thank you very much everybody