Here is the transcribed townhall meeting with speaker identifications based on the provided city officials list and the context of the dialogue. *** **[00:00] Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Let's get this meeting started. I'll uh call to order the city council meeting for the city of Lake Elmo, Tuesday, May 6. If you all please stand with me for the pledge of allegiance. Pledge to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with all. The item be on the agenda this evening, as always, is approval of the agenda. I'll entertain a motion. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Motion to approve the agenda as written. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Support. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** There's a motion to approve the agenda as written. Uh and a second. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. **City Council:** I. I. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Agenda is approved. I don't believe we have any presentations this evening. However, we do have a couple of people that would like to have public comments and inquiries. As I call your name, please come to the podium. State your name and address for the record. Uh you'll be given six minutes and uh please keep the quorum in the in the chambers as you do so. Colleen Swedberg. **Colleen Swedberg:** Hi, good good evening, mayor and council. Nice to be back. For those that don't remember me or are new since last May, my name is Colleen Swedber. I live at 6165 Upper 44th Street in Oakdale. But I'm here to uh let everyone know about the upcoming landscape revival event. It's up on the screen there. And uh it was at Rockpoint Church last year. It was our first time there. It was a huge success. We had over 1,200 people come. Okay. So, it was that's what I mean. What we all grew Oakdale and that's why we had to move to a bigger venue and it was huge. I was worried about whenever you change it doesn't people don't always find you is but we did. episode and we had over 350 people inside visiting the exhibitors who and exhibitors are people that educate everyone about how to plant a pollinator garden or how to make a rain garden. Last year we had six native plant growers from all over Minnesota and Wisconsin. I mean people came the growers came from St. Cloud and all the way from down south. So it was great. Uh it will be about the same number this year. Uh plus we have a lady that sells u signs for your garden like be garden be e you know garden. And then we've added a lady who has written a toddler book an a toz alphabet of native plants. It that would make a great gift for the kids or grandkids. I'm I plan on buying some of those. The date is June 7th from 9:00 am to 1 pm. Some of the grower growers take pre-orders. So, check on our postcard. We list our tiny CC website. So, you can look at that and see who takes pre-orders. Again, it is at Rock Point Church, 5825 Kelvin Avenue North in Lake Elmo. In addition, we'll have a food truck that sells great Mexican food. There is no charge to get into this event. And I'll leave some postcards in the back as I did. And if anyone wants to pick some up, that'd be great. I hope to see everyone there. Thanks again, Colleen Swedber. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Thank you. Thank you. Uh, next we have Bob Horn. **Bob Horn:** Hi, I'm Bob Horn. Uh live across the street at the Fields and I'm here with Paul and uh we just wanted to say thank you for the progress that has been made on the crosswalks on 39th Street. So, thank you. And well, yeah, I probably want to say something else. Uh just an observation of some of the citizens of Lake Helmo. U Virginia lives across the uh courtyard from us and she can no longer drive and she likes to go to the post office. Well, she walks down Lever and crosses 14. She's 92 years old. Not the fleetest of uh the feet in that. Uh since I live right on 39th, I see traffic going uh uh from the new preschool across 17 uh to the housing development there. And so my vision uh what I observed there was a a dad and his youngster on a what do you want to call it? just a a footpowered bike. He was a little tight. This wasn't a pedal bike. This was a footpowered bike and they were going to go across 17. Dad pushing a baby in the stroller. Okay. Um saw it again tonight. A mom and her son on a pedal bike coming from the preschool program going across 17. I realize those are county roads, but they're also citizens of w of Lake Elmo. And I just bring that to your attention that uh I just got to I I'm sure you have a concern for citizens of Lake Elmo also. So uh in my opinion, there's a fair amount of uh pedestrian traffic across uh those two major county roads. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Thank you, Mr. Horn. Thank you. All right. I don't have anybody else for com public comments or inquiries. Uh, next on the agenda is approval of minutes from the April 15, 2025 meeting. I'll entertain a motion on that. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Motion to approve minutes from April 15, 2025 meeting. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Is there a second? **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Second. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** We have a motion by Council Member Hearn and second by Council Member Holtz. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. **City Council:** I. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Minutes are hereby approved. I get a volunteer to read through the consent agenda this evening, please. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Two, approve payment of dispersements and payroll. Three, approve the 2026 budget calendar. Four, approve cost, approve cross-country ski trail grooming grant resolution 2025-037. Five, approve Sunfish Lake Park parking lot expansion. Six, approve recycling grant agreement. Seven, approve storm water appeal determination. Eight, approve pay request number two for well number two, PAS wastewater treatment plant project. Nine, approve pay just water treatment plant. Just water treatment. We're not treating wastewater. There is a P there. Water treatment plant. WTP water treatment plant. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Just I can't read. I don't think we're doing a wastewater treatment plant. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Nine. Well, luckily that's the same one here. So, nine. Approve pay request number three for well number two PAS WTP project. 10. Approve date for city administrator annual review. 11. Approve hiring of administrative services coordinator. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** I entertain a motion on the consent agenda. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** So move to approve the ascent consent agenda as read. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Second. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** We have a motion and a second by council member Dragassuchich and council member Hearn. All those in favor of approving the consent agenda, please signify by saying I. **City Council:** I. I. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** All right. Consent agenda is approved. Getting into the regular agenda. Item number 12 is public improvement hearing. Approve resolution ordering the improvement. Accept bids and award contract for the 2025 and utility improvements resolution 2025-038. Be right with you. Thank you. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Uh, mayor and councel um before you tonight with an item uh to discuss um recently received bids uh and um some some potential council action. I have a brief presentation and um afterwards I'll I'll step back for the public hearing. So I'm going to Here we go. Um, so again, uh, this item's been before council a number of times this spring. Uh, it's the 2025 street utility improvements. Um, just to talk about what we're going to be discussing this evening. Um, just going to recap a lot of information that council's heard before. Um and then um I think uh the big the big thing is discussing the bids that we received uh through the public process. By the way, this is the really snappy new Lake Elmo standard uh uh template for presentation. So I'm feel very honored this is to to be giving this to you here tonight. So discuss project schedule. Um here we are May 6th. Um we are at the next step uh of a statutory process. Minnesota statute 429 um where we call for an improvement hearing and council then takes action to order the improvement. Um this again is to um we this to dis ah this again is to address the five project areas that are are part of the greater project. That would be um Judith Mary Manor, Prairie Hamlet, Lake Emblem Vista, Rolling Hills Estates, and Teal Pass Estates. Oh, and Irish Court um North. To recap the scope of improvements, um we're we're reclaiming and and rebuilding the streets. Um uh adding concrete, curb, and gutter. Uh we there's been geotechnical investigations done out there where we've based our pavement recommendations and street recommendations upon uh council considered water mane extensions at one point in some neighborhoods and it was ultimately decided that we were not going to move forward with any water man this year. Um this the geometry of the street is being more or less matched with the um the roads being replaced. Um uh we are replacing the asphalt edging with with new concrete curb and gutter and there are drainage improvements and repairs being made as a part of the street improvements also. So this is preliminary assessment information. This information's remained consistent uh through the process so far. uh council policy or city city policy is to assess 30% of eligible project costs. Um just I've kind of summarized the cost in the table. Council has seen this a number of times. Um I can jump back to if there are any specific questions, but these costs have remained unchanged at this time. Uh one thing to touch on again is that was that's new to the neighborhoods would be some parking restrictions in streets uh less than 28 feet in width. Um this is per city policy. Um this information's been shared with um council and the neighborhoods. Um so it's restricting parking in culde-sacs along the edge. Um it's restricting parking to one side again along these streets that are are narrower. In this case this includes 59th Street Court, 55th Street and Julip. Um and we would be installing signage if um if approved. We did have a neighborhood meeting for each of the project areas um over the last few weeks. We um we we um had varied attendance but generally a lot of the same kind of um kind of questions and comments were heard across across um the meetings. So um folks were generally appreciative of the opportunity to provide information and get feedback or and give feedback. Uh, a lot of the most common questions were related to construction and we don't we we we have a hard time answering those right now because we haven't ordered a contract. We don't have a schedule. Um, once we do have a contractor on board, if if council chooses to move forward, we will have another open house. We'll have an openhouse style meeting for the for the greater group. Um, we don't, you know, I don't think it's beneficial to have the five separate meetings and it becomes time consuming. Um and at that meeting folks will be able to have scheduling questions addressed some of the things uh you know property specific questions addressed and we'll be able to give some much better information there. Uh there was some some consternation over the um some of the new uh no parking um restrictions being proposed. Um we we you know I will I will note that we we did report to those folks that you know Lake Elmo um doesn't have a policeman roaming around looking for you know um folks to give tickets to parked on a on a residential street post and no parking. You know it was it's it comes down to um maintenance and operations and public safety for the rationale. But if you're going to have a big party, a grad party, something like that, you know, work with your we encourage folks to talk to their talk to your neighbors. If you if you feel comfortable calling the city and just saying, "Hey, I'm going to have people over." We could probably relax the restrictions and it wouldn't be a big deal. We we do have permits available for that daily use. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Yeah. So, we received seven bids uh for the project and the low bid was Valley Paving Incorporated and their bid came in at uh a little under $1.5 million for construction $1,485,463.50. So revising the project cost uh with this updated bid uh which is significantly lower than our our engineers estimate which is about 1.9 million. We have a project cost of just under $2.1 million. Um so those assessments that I showed you earlier, those have remained consistent. those preliminary assessment amounts. We um we here uh will revise um final assessments once we know all costs at the end of the project. Um you know, generally looking at the um the uh low bid and the project costs, I could I could safely tell folks that your assessment will be going down in all likelihood um from the from the very amount. How much I'm a little hesitant to say just because there are unknowns out there. Um but I I could say with a strong degree of certainty that assessments will be going down from the preliminary amount. So it's recommended um that you know to improve the street and drainage systems in the five neighborhoods identified is recommended the feasibility uh reports and plans and specifications. Um it's recommended that the improvements be assessed to each property in accordance with city policy. Um is recommended that the street and storm sewer improvements be payable over be made payable over 15 years and charge an interest rate of 1% over the bond rate for the project. Um and this project is um as proposed is is um technically and financially feasible um necessary and cost effective and will result in benefits to properties. So, um tonight, uh, you know, council will hold a public hearing. I'm going to step back for that. And following the hearing, uh, we're we're uh recommending that council uh should consider approving a resolution awarding ordering the improvements, accepting bids, and awarding a contract valley paving uh for the the 25 street improvements. And then um we're also um recommending that the city council authorize the city administrator to enter into a material testing contract for the project um in the not to exceed amount of $30,000 to um provide quality control, quality assurance for the construction. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** You have questions before I—Council Member Holtz. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Yes, two questions. Thank you, Nathan, for that one. With that bid being I mean well over 20% less than anticipated. I guess on our end usually the the estimates are pretty close to what comes in at least for the low bid. I assume that was then looked into to make sure that they did their numbers correct and they're they're not shortch changing themselves on any of the material costs. They're not doing something that's going to come back to bite us. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Absolutely. Uh thank you for the question, Council Member Holtz. Uh we do our due diligence when the bids come in. Um when I talk about a low bidder, it's the low responsible bidder and Valley Paving is uh they've we've spoken with them and they're they're good with their numbers. Um I will I will tell you that, you know, we did receive seven bids, a good number of bids, and there was a pretty big spread. Well, we you know, there were there was a handful that were um pretty low and a handful that were closer to where we thought uh numbers would come in about 1.9 million. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Thank you. And then the second one in terms of the way the standards are applying with uh no parking on one side and we've received plenty of uh quality feedback from residents in terms of when would we have the discussion about possibly which side of the street. We're not discussing that at this point. Correct. That's going to be something at a future point because I know there there was a a valid idea as to maybe it should be on a certain side of the street from a resident that provided feedback. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Sure. I I guess um Council Member Holtz, I might defer to Director Powers to answer that, but um I'll take a stab at it. Um I I I think that um policy sets it on one side of the street, and I I I I'm not exactly sure the rationale. Um sometimes it has to do with um mailbox placement, things like that, but um um I think we're I think we could be flexible. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** Yeah, I can help you too, Nate. You're pretty pretty right on. Um, we take a look, see where the mailbox placements are and fire hydrants and then a lot of times where the majority of the driveways are. Um, so we can allow for as much parking as possible. So the three things are really what we determine it by. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Gotcha. But that that hasn't been determined yet for this. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** Um, we had a preliminary design of what we recommend, but it's up to council to decide. We also look at uh inside corners and sight visibility for for driving lanes. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Thank you. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Oh, Council Member Hearn. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Um yeah, so a couple questions. One, um we got a lot of feedback um on the previous uh road and kind of the life uh span. I think it was specifically with 55th Street. I guess one of the questions that was coming up in my mind is you know the the previous time that this was redone uh the um pumminous curbs were put in versus the concrete. Does that change the life expectancy that we would you know I think the number was thrown around kind of typically of 25 to 30 years uh for these roads is kind of expected. Um, we've also heard a lot that if we put the concrete curves on that extends the life I believe closer to that 25 to 30 where if we don't it is shorter. I tried to do some research. I struggled to to find anything. Maybe had some better civil engineering websites to look at, but if you could maybe speak on that a little bit as far as um life expectancy with or without those um concrete curbs. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Absolutely. Thank you for the question uh council member Hearn. So concrete curb uh It it functions a few ways but the number one thing is that it does extend the life of a buminous pavement. Buminous material is flexible and concrete curb is um it's a rigid material concrete in general I guess. So um when you when you know that curb is placed it it creates this confinement for the edge of the pavement and that does a couple things. One is it kind of structurally reinforces the roadway across because if you think about a heavy load on top of a roadway or on top of anything flexible, it kind of wants it to spread out. Well, the curb keeps it together so the road structure stays more solid. And two, the number one source of deterioration for pavements in Minnesota is moisture. and concrete curb and gutter. When properly when buminous is properly constructed and sealed up against that gutter pan, it provides um a way to get moisture off the road surface without getting into the subgrade. And you know, while we do have road restrictions at certain times of year um and due to softening subgrades, there are large vehicles that are exempt. you know, garbage trucks, um you know, delivery trucks, um you know, city maintenance, snow plows, things like that, you know, that can really, you know, um you know, do some damage to to you know, old residential roadways, you know, with lacking that concrete curb and gutter. But I would just say the number one the really the number one strategy to extend the life of a especially like a buminous roadway constructed in neighborhood environment is to put concrete curb on the edge of the road. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** And do are you aware of any data as far as life expectancy of the batuminous um pavement without the concrete curbs versus I guess com comparing them you know you can get data across an entire spectrum. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** I what I will say is that uh roads built to a modern standard like we're doing in Lake Elmo with concrete curbon gutter on the edge and property time maintenance should see a life of closer to 50 years. You know what I mean? it we you can with obviously with m like I said proper maintenance so I'm talking about um crack seals chip seals mill and overlay timed appropriately to refresh and reset that distress curve um but I mean I I would I can't stress enough how the concrete curb is really it's and it's it's a very cost-effective strategy to do it too. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Okay. And then so a follow-up question for that and I apologize if I missed it in the the presentation but with the curbs that are um planned to be built with this are we talking the surmountable the flat was and if I was in there and I missed it I apologize but you could speak on that a little. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Absolutely. Um so we're we're placing a B style so some call it a high back. It's the straight up you know kind of comes off the face kind of has got a little slant to it but it's a what you would think of when you think of conventional curb and gutter. Yeah. not as surmountable at at places at at um at driveways. It'll be depressed, you know, for, you know, um cars to pass through. But, um but it's only a 4 in height. And we've we're using a 4 in and stuff. A 6 in is kind of the standard in an urban or suburban environment. A we use a 4 in out here because we find it fits better when replacing that old buminous rolled edge with with kind of yards and grades around it. You know, it also is more easy to mount if you're in a a car and wanting to pull in or something. You know what I mean? You've got a car full of, you know, pumpkins and Halloween and you want to pull them in your front yard and set them up or something. I don't know. You know, but it's just it's it's it's it's it's been what the city's been using for a while and and it works very well. Try to ask one more thing. Sorry. Yeah. Just just one more kind of again from the feedback that I've been seeing. Um there's a lot of you know we want to really preserve the the the character of this area of Lake Elmo. Um obviously having curbs is going to look different than what's there currently. Um as far as going with an option with the flat concrete curb is again is there any reason that we would want to avoid that versus um why maybe the like the 4 in option is the one that's being recommended? **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** So, there's a couple big reasons and and one is to control drainage. You know, we we need that we need a a curb of some height. Um because, you know, not all streets just run right off into a flat, you know, wetland or or, you know, stretch of woods or something like that. You know what I mean? We want to keep the drainage running in the street to the storm sewer systems. Okay. And the other big one is is um winter maintenance. Um, and you know, the plows use the curb as a guide. Um, and it also keeps the plows from getting into people's boulevards and tearing things up. So, um it it it it it's it's um, you know, Lake Elmo does use a variety of curb types. I'll I'll maybe back up on that point for a second. And you probably notice some of the flat curbing around, but in the applications where we're proposing highback curb here in neighborhood culde-sacs, it's really um it really works best. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Thank you. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Mhm. Anything? Nothing for me. Good. All right. Thanks, Nick. I'll entertain a motion to go into a public hearing. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** So moved. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Second. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** We have a motion to go into a public hearing for the 2025 street and utility improvements. Um uh all those in favor please signify by saying I. **City Council:** I. **[7:28] Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** All right. We will go into public hearing here at 7:28. And uh I've got three people that wish to speak. If you did not uh there's some sheets in the back if you wanted to speak and your name's on one of these three. You can fill one out and give it to Miss Johnson. I call your name. Please come to the podium. State your name for the record along with your address. And uh you'll have six minutes to speak. And uh just keep make sure we keep the quorum in the council chambers. Um Karen Bernos Gernowski. **Karen Gernowski:** Good evening. Yes, I'm Karen Gnowski. I'm live at 98 55th Street North and I'm somewhat representing our our street. I have two other homeowners with me. one couldn't attend and so you know we're we're all on the same page. Um we feel a little discouraged to say the least at this point. Um I saw in your presentation that there was some neighborhood meetings in January. None of us heard of them or attended them. Um so I'm not sure this feels very late in the game for us to be coming here when it's just about to be approved. I know that everyone emailed, so I don't want to belabor the points that were in there and I appreciate your questions on the curb as that was obviously, you know, one of the main issues that we had. Um, we do feel like our street is just a quiet, quaint street. It's got a farmlike kind of feel to it and this is changing it more so than you even mentioned, I think. Um, so hearing the discussions on the curb, I feel like that's already going to be set and nothing that we say now will change it. But if there was any room to not do that on our street, that would be the preference for our home owners. Um the our friend that lives at the end of the street says she hasn't had drainage problems. And we have a in not only in our culde-sac, we have a the little circle inside the culdesac. To put two curbs there, it's just a lot of curb. I feel like it would be harder for the plows to get around it, but maybe not. Um, so the curb is really just going to change the look and feel of it, which is which is upsetting. Um, but maybe even the bigger point is the no parking. So I understand that there might be some discussions to change the side of the road and we were one of the ones that did want to change that. The side that we saw is of no parking is where most of the driveways are, including the culde-sac. And we haven't had any issues with parking ever. And I know the home owner next to me, he said he's lived here over 25 years. We've never had an issue with parking. So, I'm not sure why the regulation needs to be presented, why we even have to have these discussions to be putting it in. Um, to say it's, you know, there's not going to be many tickets. It that seems like that's not looking at the cause of it. And I know for me personally, we we love our front lawn. And I'm going to be looking down now when I saw the picture at not one but two no parking signs will now be front and center at the end of our driveway because it's right at the end of the culde-sac and there needs to be one in the beginning and one in the end. So, I just I don't understand why we're trying to fix something that's not broken and that's changing the look and feel for our neighborhood. So, I really would appreciate if there was somehow more collaboration and stewardship from the council. It just doesn't feel like it just doesn't feel like it's it's collaborative. We just keep seeming to have issues that we're not aware of and that are coming that affect our our homes here, you know. So, you did mention that the curbs are more modern and we understand that. We're seeing all of the building um all of the corners that are getting bulldozed with all the new development. So, I know Lake Elmo that's clearly a modern direction that we're going in away from that farm-like feel, but if there's any way that we could preserve 55th Street North, it's just five of us with the largest assessment that we're helping to pay for for this, we would really appreciate it. Thank you. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Thank you, Brad Bergie. **Brad Bergie:** Thank you. Good evening, Mayor and Council. My name is Brad Bergie, having moved into the Rolling Hills Estates in early 1995. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Mr. Bergie, could you please state your address for the record? **Brad Bergie:** Yes. Thank you. Uh 9481 57th Street North where my wife and I have resided. If I could, for the record, I would like to second the previous or I would say the uh upcoming comments that John Bourbon will be uh addressing. We thank you for having this opportunity to express our concerns regarding this assessment coming up. Primarily, our focus is to submit to the city at this public hearing a request to receive a fair and reasonable assessment reduction in the upcoming street improvements this year. Our paid assessment in 2010 for a street improvement that resulted in a shorter than normal lifespan and occurred with faulty installation makes us extremely disappointed. We and other neighbors and the city have not received our money's worth and I believe that justifies a lower assessment for not receiving the full benefit. In previous weeks, we have become aware of the geotechnical findings, the opinions from some stating that there was a substandard road following the 2010 project, and the life of the road not nearly what it should be. Other supportive information leads us to ensure more accountability with the new project in the new street repair this year. Upon researching typical road lifespans, roads declared low traffic usually achieve 20 to 30 years or more in longevity. I think an expectation of 25 years is reasonable since other streets are averaging that in the neighborhood. The responsibility to maximize road lifespans lie with the implementing the proposed improvement and not the homeowners. The selected company which will install the improved road in 2025 will also have to adhere to FDR regulations in consideration of the previous reclamation plans that occurred in 2010 which we already paid for in that assessment. When factoring in the construction inconvenience and the further disruption sooner than we had expected, we feel that should also prompt a reduction in the assessment as well. Our neighbors John and Lisa Bourbon have lived in Rolling Hills a few more years than us, so we share similarities surrounding the previous assessments. length of residing here with two roads already, lack of road longevity and of course the money spent on an unfulfilled investment. John Bourbon has shared with us much information on his findings. We concur on many points and support his results entirely. The logic used to arrive at a fair and reasonable reduction is suitable and we believe justified. We therefore agree with the 10% figure for our special assessment. Finally, we are fully aware of this unique and possible rare situation that has developed in our neighborhood, but we're resolved to request a way to make it better for all involved. We are aware that the final assessment amount will not be known perhaps until the project is completed. We act in good faith with the city of Lake Elmo and trust that all parties involved will do as well. Thank you. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Thank you, Mr. Bergie. John Bourbon. **John Bourbon:** Good evening, mayor, city council members. My name is John Bourbon and I have resided with my wife, Lisa, at 9612 57th Street North in Rolling Hills since 1994. We're one of the originals, as we say in our neighborhood. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today regarding this 2025 street improvement plan. In the email I sent you over the weekend, uh, I have reversed my previous opposition to our section of the road being in this plan. And that's based on the communications with Mayor Caden, Councilman Dragish from uh, the last meeting, conversations with city engineering staff and reviewing the geotechnical report. Not a road engineer, but I'm an engineer. I could read those reports. So, there's certainly issues with that road. So, I therefore here to support the two resolutions in front of you and ask that you approve them. Uh but while assessment language is not included in the resolution uh but is rather part of city policy, I've included in the email I sent you guys my reason for a special request for reduction in the proposed assessment from the normal 30% to 10%. I believe this order reduction is within your authority and I hope you have found it to be based on reasonable argument and rather than repeat all the information I gave you in the email, I just want to highlight a few things. as original residents rolling hills now being faced with paying for the road a third time even though the development is 32 years old. The evidence I provided my email support that each road project was intended to meet mindot standards that were at the time and so therefore we should have expected reasonable life out of the road and those standards are basically you're using MIDOT standards again today. So there's nothing different. The reclamation was done in a very similar way. The language is was the same from the 2010 project. And as residents, we assessed 30% of the cost of road improvement because we're said to benefit directly from the improvement. It's the road right in front of our house. So we pay more than just the average like Elmo citizen who might use the road every now and then and we pay for everybody else's road a little bit. Our role in this in the improvement is limited really providing our opinions in meetings like this one. But in the end, as we heard from the last meeting, the decision is is not ours to make, nor is the responsibility and accountability that the improvement is properly executed, maintained, etc. All we do, we pay 30% of the costs and we hope we get the useful life out of the investment. That's all we want. So, I've used an expected useful life of the road like ours to be 25 years. And I think that number seems reasonable based on other roads in a neighborhood and is also consistent with what was mentioned in the city council meeting on March 18th. Even a number as high as 30 years was mentioned in the meeting. But to be more reasonable, I've used 25. And thank you, Councilman Hearn, for your email earlier uh this evening and in a discussion, Mr. Stanley saying that if there was concrete, it could have lasted 50 years. So I understand the point that with with tuminous curve you get less life but I'm talking about 25 years versus 50 years. I still think 25 is reasonable. And then no matter what model you want to consider I'm an engineer. I've dealt with models my whole life. The fact that we have data the rest of 57th lasted 24 years. The one culde-sac 24 the other culde-sac 28. Doesn't matter what the models say. That data for that neighborhood under those conditions with those vehicles, this weather that trumps all models. And if you know, we could talk I'd love to argue if anyone doesn't believe that, but I only have three more minutes. So the rational for reduce assessment simply based on the fact that the two iterations of 57th Street have only lasted a cumulative 32 years, 18 years short of the 50 they should have. 50 is 2 * 25. Yet I paid my required share of 50 years worth of road. So with the next road, maybe I need to adjust my numbers here. I assumed it was still going to be 25 years. I've basically already paid for 18 years of the next road if you look at that. So I've been shorted 18 years. The next road full assessment for whatever how many years it's going to last. I've already paid and so has Brad Bergie and other residents have paid different amounts because they moved in the neighborhood a different time, but I've already paid for a big portion of the next road. And I wish the next one's going to last 50. I won't be around here to verify, but first road 18, second road 15 we're going down. So I 50 I'm a little I hope so, but hopefully the next homeowner will get that benefit. So again, with my model, I had seven years remaining benefit. That was a 8.4% assessment. The way the math worked, I bumped that up to 10 because there's aspects of this new road that were not in the old road and what and that's an added benefit to me. So, while actual costs and the assessments are yet to be determined, the model, this economic model I presented is independent of actual costs because it's based on percentages. If the costs go up, 10% of it goes up. If it goes down, 10% of it goes down. And also given that the proposed contractor's bids are coming in under estimated costs, new project costs have already been reduced over $500,000. And ideally, what I'm asking is that the city council agree with my logic and rationale and reduce my assessment to the 10% that I proposed and conclude this matter. However, I'm willing to consider alternative economic models that the city may want to consider and just ask that I be able to participate in a process and I'm given the same level of explanation as I have attempted to provide to the city with my uh emails. I understand that the resolutions before you tonight are not impacted by your decision or comments regarding my special assessment situation, but hope that you provide your thoughts regarding this request tonight and not defer it to a later date. Uh i also ask you to consider the same for the rest of our neighbors given their particular situation. So Brad Bergie is the exact same vote original member Eric has asked for 25% reduction because he moved in in 2005. Little different situation. So that's what we're asking for. And and lastly, I don't intend the other neighbors to pick up what I'm asking not to pay. That would be unfair to them. Unfortunately, the only one left to pick up that extra is the city. But um you know the the past city council may not have been as astute as you guys past city staff may not have been paying as close attention to what happened but it's not on us. Thank you for your uh time and your consideration in this matter. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Thank you Mr. Bourbon. We got a couple late ads. Um Mike and Kathy Falco. **Mike Falco:** Good evening. Thanks for uh giving us a moment. Um I'm Mike Falco. This is my wife Kathy Falco. Our home is at 4101 Irish Court North. And we mainly just wanted to express our appreciation for the road project. uh our our road has long suffered from drainage problems as well as you know big gouges and the like. We've been talking for years about when we would get a road replacement. So we're we're actually glad that this is the year we're being considered and wanted to express our support for that. We actually wish that water extension would have been realistic. uh but for whatever reason, I guess that's not part of the project. So again, we just wanted to express our support for the renovation of our street. Thank you. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Brook Der. **Brook Der:** Hi, I'm Brook Der. Uh 4870 Jerome Avenue North. I also own a house on Jane Road North, too. Um want to say thanks for looking at the road situation. Um, uh the previous I live in the Teal Pass Estates part and 58th Street was done several years ago and the council and the engineer back then worked with me to deal with a observation I had near the Whipple Tree Farm, which the flooding coming off of that was absolutely massive. And uh, we did you guys did a really good job of fixing that and it's all done. Um, the one thing I've noticed, I walk my dog religiously every night around my whole entire neighborhood and much of the roads already done what, six years ago, um, in our area, 53rd Street to 58th Street. The one thing I'm noticing, and it's it's part of my job where I work is when I look for defects and things because I'm in quality, I always try to figure out what is causing something to go wrong. And I'm noticing in our area, the roads that are only five or six years old have got massive amounts of cracks in the top coat. And that makes me concerned because I think, well, what's going on? Because water's going to get in there and that's going to going to cause a problem. So, I think back to my brother lives on a road in upstate New York. uh, same number approximately of freeze thaw cycles that we have here. The road is 75 years old. log trucks for my brother's business come in there. Uh heavy dump trucks and stuff go up the road, you know, beyond my brother and every I think it's about every 10 years they seal coat it. But the road is 75 years old, no curbs and holding up just fine. So I just sort of look at the roads and we hear the discussions about how often we're replacing our roads and here's an area that is you know done differently and I think maybe we should be looking at that. I do know that in New York the top coat is minimum of 4 in and often times there's a porous layer below that of five to six inches. They used to they also use granite for curbs because granite is readily available and uh it's very nice but very rough on trucks. But I would just encourage people to especially the engineers to look at the the situation with our hard coat. This top coat cracking which is going to let water in which is going to cause it to start to break down. And in the road in our area that was just done is showing a huge amount of cracks. Now, we do you do come around to seal those up, but I just look at that and think, okay, it's five or six years old. I'm already seeing signs of where, you know, we're probably not going to get the life. And we all I know we go by MIDOT standards, but maybe we may not want to be listening to Mind DOT. Maybe we should be talking to other people, other, you know, other states just to see what they're doing differently because 75 years for the road my brother lives on is pretty darn impressive. So, that's all. Thanks. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Thank you. I think that is everyone. With that, I'll entertain a motion to take us out of the public hearing. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** So moved. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Support. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Motion and a second by Council Member Holtz and Dragassich. to close the public hearing. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. **City Council:** I. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Public hearing is closed at 7:49. All right. So, are there any questions for staff before any sort of not that we can't ask questions once a motion is made? I guess I can entertain a a motion on this item. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Yeah. One quick question. Sure. What's the process for if the council did want to do some sort of um uh alternative assessment? Is that something that we need to decide on tonight? Um is that something that we can What's the process on that? I guess is the question council on that? **Julie Johnson (City Clerk):** So the the council has broad discretion to to change the the um the assessment amounts. That would not be tonight. That would be at the assessment hearing or or before the assessment hearing. So long as it's uniform on the class of properties, the council has a broad discretion. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Okay. Thank you. And I guess just one more um kind of to clarify. Um I think it might still be worthwhile having the conversation about the uh with the the concrete curbs. Um, if possibly going to uh I I know city works probably won't like this as much, but going to more of like the flat curb if if you know if that does fit better with the area versus uh the 4 in height, you know, as a compromise to uh keep it a little bit less of the more um newly newly developed Lake Elmo look versus u what they're a little bit more used to um with where they live right now. So, is that something again if we're going to have that conversation, can we change that down the road or is that tonight we need to modify that in? **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** So, I the the project was bid with the style of curb that I described earlier, the the highback B 4in high 18inch gutter pan. And if we did change the type of curb, um, there'd be a change order. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** So, we've done in the past, it dropped when we went. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** No, opposite. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** No, not necessarily. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** It typically is going to be more because they're changing out and bringing in something new. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Uh, sorry. For the the elevated versus the flat, oh, the material itself would be cheaper. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Change order maybe would add to it. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Am I I I thought when we previously had made that change that did bring the price down actually. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Yeah. Not it's it's not necessarily okay, you know. Um I I don't think there'd be a huge change in price, but I would I wouldn't recommend changing it at this point. um for that for for that reason, you know, but also um just that the the the B style curb fits with the neighborhood. Right now there is a small curb um uh with with in many areas with the bum too edging. So all of a sudden removing that curb now you've you're going to create drainage problems down the road because there's nothing to contain the drainage in the street. It runs off the crown and it's going to be running into um driveways. It's going to be running into yards. It's going to be washing out the edge and and it's just going to create a you know situation where for maintenance plows and and vehicles are getting into boulevards and you know all right thank you for clarifying. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Just maybe to help with that question. Do we know the curb style that's on 57th prior to getting to the area that's uh slated to be redone? **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Well, we can if you give me one second, Mr. Mayor, we can just trying to jump into it. I know that 57th there's east of Jul right here, I think. Yeah, it's concrete. I'm just I don't know if that's at B6. It It looks like it's a shorter It's a smaller elevated curb. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Isn't it Isn't it 55th Street though? **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Right. I'm just getting a of what it would be to Yeah. to something that's already in place on 57. For sure. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** So, I'm I'm looking at the uh street view on 57th Street from this past August that was reconstructed previous in previous years, and it's a B style curb. Yeah. Is that That's just B. Is it B4? I believe it's B4. Yeah, that looks pretty short. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Okay. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** clarifying question on that because it on that section so east of Julip it it does look like it's the B4 and for then west of Julip on 57th the proposal was to have it be the B6 or B5 or would it still be for 4 in **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** it was B4 uniformly through so it would it would match **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Okay. We weren't going with the the higher ones that we have elsewhere. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Okay. Yes. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Council me. Yes. A question for the engineer. Nate, we heard some discussion about on the 57th Street. The original road was constructed in 1993 and we rebuilt it in 2010. in 1993. Was that the street that was put in by the developer or was that street put in by the city or do we know? **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Uh, council member Jetsuch that was the original build by the developer. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** So, we don't have any basic information on the R value of the soils at the time or any information we can look back and say was it properly built or not. We've heard the term mind standards tossed around. I mean they use a standard you know pumminous thickness but we don't know actually how well the road is constructed because of soils information all that engineering technical stuff you would use to design a road was was done by somebody else and not you know not necessarily by the city. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Uh, council member uh, council member Dragusuchet. Absolutely. You're you're right. The road was built by others. They had an engineered plan. However, um, at that time I don't know what what the situation was in Lake Elm for a city engineer engineering department. Um, a lot of times uh, developments uh, it's not just unique to Lake Elmble, but when when um the suburban areas in the east metro were subdividing in the 80s and early 90s, um, they've all kind of run into a similar situation like this. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** So we have no idea what the design life of that street was at that time other than it failed by 2010. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Exactly. Yeah. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Thank you. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** All right. I'll entertain a motion. **John Bourbon:** Sorry, we're in we're in discussion. So, uh, had a moment to speak or time to present that earlier. Um, not that we can't take a look at it later. Thank you. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** I'll entertain a motion. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Motion to approve resolution 2025-038 ordering the improvements, accepting bids, and awarding a contract to Valley Paving, Inc. for the bid amount of 1,485,436 and50 for the 2025 street and utility improvements. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Is there a second? **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Second. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** We have a motion and a second. Discussion anyone? **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** There's no discussion. I'll call the question. Well, I mean I I can start number one. Okay. Um, we have a lot of success with getting feedback from this neck of the woods. We've had many items that have come up. So, the cup request for a landscaping business nearby, the cup request for uh the home that was to be going in on Keats and this and credit to the many who have uh sent in feedback and who attended and I apologize. I haven't replied to a lot of emails. That's on me and normally I do. uh I will blame soccer, soccer, softball, and soccer. But, um, I just want to start off by saying that like we do read your emails. I failed to reply and that's on me. Um, this is in I wasn't here for the last meeting. uh, and so this was it was interesting watching that one and now uh getting this information today because there are some unique circumstances with this. Most of the street utilities that come before us, we we get, you know, similar questions. uh there's city regulations, there's our neighborhood, and they they may not perfectly um mix. And that you're not alone. That happens in in most neighborhoods because no neighborhood is the same. That's part of what makes Lake Elmo fantastic is none of our neighbor neighborhoods are the same. They're all unique. The modern ones are unique. The ones that have quarter acres are unique. the ones that have three to five acres are unique. Um I I will say in terms of curb and gutter I in terms of investment when the city overall is paying 70% which is myself Matt all of you on the 70%. I will 10 times out of 10 make a choice to say that the best product should be used which is concrete. With that said, I fully get it may not be what visually is wanted. That is entirely true. But in terms of that investment piece, in terms of what we know should last longer, whether it does or doesn't, we can't say for certain every single time. We know for a fact there have been failures here. We don't know why, but we also know that for a fact concrete will last longer. I will 10 times out of 10 vote for that. Um, in in terms of the parking signs, I again, we're not that's not part of this thing tonight, but I think that's um I don't recall seeing in the images if it's a south or north side, but I think we can obviously have that discussion uh moving forward. um but it sounds like that it might be in conflict as to which one it is. But we've we've had that discussion with other neighborhoods and we have uh made changes in specific circumstances. So that has happened. uh that's something that we can definitely as this move forward continue with that. In terms of assessment change, I I do not support that in at all. um it's not that there's no policy for it. There isn't. But I don't think it's also a precedent that I would want to make on behalf of this city and all of our taxpayers when in this situation, yeah, the road hasn't lasted as long as it likely should have. That's not your fault. It's also not the city's fault. It's also not anyone that we know's fault. It might have been from five years in a row of horrific rains. It might have been flawed material. It might have been a flawed We don't know. And we are not in a position to say in this situation we are going to reduce based upon when someone moved in. I'm sorry that that is not a sustainable solution that I would be wanting to make as a precedent that then can move forward. um and I should note what happens often times when someone moves in if there are assessments remaining on that house often times the buyer pays off those assessments. So if there's three or four years remaining of assessments, that buyer pays it as part of their mortgage. So that that that's I it's just not a it's a creative idea. We are here to listen to ideas. You provide ideas. I don't I that's not one I can go forward with. Um I do appreciate that the curbon gutter is four inches because there are taller options. In this case, this does match up with what was already there at 57. So I do appreciate that. But I I can't go away from what is the best product available for trying to get the best longevity out there. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Council member Jayuch, you know, I know we're not here to talk about the assessments this evening and my comment about the 1993 project is only because I do have I do have an understanding of the frustration of the residents having the street rebuilt in 2010 and now 15 years later being forced, you know, with an assessment to replace the street which should have had a longer life. I'm trying to in my mind knowing generally how the development process works that yeah we have a set of plans for the streets that were submitted but we don't design them they're designed by the developer and you know as you know when you do a street there's a lot more science to it than just how many inches of puminous you have and base not going to get a full discussion but I do I do share the resident's concern that the street didn't give them the life that they should have I'm not in agreement that there was 50 years of life. Um, but I think we have an issue where the life is shorter than what we would expect it to be in most reasonable situations and we can look at that when we get to the assessment portion. With regard to the parking signs, I think there should be some flexibility. My only concern would be we have city ordinance that specify where the signs have to be to enforce them. So, you have to look at what is the enforcability. if you don't have the signs in the right places, can you give someone a ticket who's parked illegally? And that would be my only concern. But I think we should be able to work with the neighborhood and try and come up with something that meets our regulations and to the best we can satisfy their concerns. Um because I'm sympathetic to what we you know, we all have a place where where we've been living for a long time. We call it home and it's convenient and we like the way it looks and we make a change that affects the aesthetics. We want to work with you on that. I will work with you on that as one city council member. I'm only one vote, but I'm sympathetic to your concerns. And so I think um you know, repairing the streets is is is always in our best interest to have good streets if we let them go too far. My hometown is Chisum. I go up there to visit and the streets are so bad. I there's no there's not enough money in the state of Minnesota to fix all the streets there. I'm sorry. You you ruin your car driving down them. At one time I was the mayor of Chis. I would never let that happen if I was still there. Um, but every community has to deal with that on their own. And what I like about Lake Elmo is we have a street program. I moved into the Royal Club and after 5 years we had a street seal coated which is good practice so that we don't have water going in the cracks and I wasn't on the council at the time. I, you know, saw the improvement going, "Wow, this is fantastic. We have a city who cares about its streets and wants to maintain them. We have a CIP that has a lot of streets in them to make sure that we don't find oursel in that position where everything is bad and now you got a problem where you're tripling taxes to pay for streets because you don't know what to do. So I think as a council I'm sympathetic to all your concerns. I want to find something that's fair to all of the residents and fair to you um in some way that's reasonable. We can talk about that when we get to the assessment hearing. I just didn't want you to think my comment about the original build was was anything negative towards you. I'm just trying to best of my understanding how development works and having spent 40 years in government, I think I had a pretty good idea. Um, but I wanted to make sure how it worked here because I've only been here five years. So, I think we have a basis for moving forward and coming to some agreement as as you know, citizens and council. Thank you. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** I'll just I'll I'll just add to that. You know, I think both of those comments I I do very much agree with. you know, as much as I'd like to be able to see a little bit of uh compromise and um with what some of the requests, you know, just I think like what Council Member Holtz was saying, um when we look at it from the stance of um what the lifespan is going to be with the curb and gutter um or with the concrete curb, it's just I can't vote against that. um that's just unfair to the other 70%. Um, and then I'll just add as far as with the the signage, I am very open and I I really would like to see some more compromise on that. Um I I know that might be a challenge with some of the ordinances like what was just brought up. Uh, but I really feel like that is an area where we can at least work uh with the residents to make some compromise and and help uh meet some of their requests as well. **Council Member Nick Kragness:** Yeah. Again, I agree with all the comments here and I appreciate everybody coming tonight to express their concerns um with the parking signs. I completely am in in lock step with everybody here about having some compromise around that, being able to move it. Um but again, I just want to say that I appreciate everybody's comments today and they're they're heard and I appreciate it. Thank you. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Um, what can I say? I just put the uh the one thing I always people want to know what courter does. So the the layman in me says think about a piece of bread and the crust around the bed, right? If you don't have the crust, the bread can kind of fall apart. So with the crust, it just helps it hold together a little bit. That just that's the way I kind of lay that out a little bit. I think the city has in past projects um uh fields of St. Croy, we did work with the neighborhood on the placement of no parking signs. And I know that people that have lived here a long time that haven't had parking signs, and that's a new thing. It's a policy. Um, Chief Kalis does a very good job at looking at our roadways and coming up with reasonable ways to make sure that if if there is u a safety event that they need to attend to with the trucks at the width of the roadway, we'll allow those vehicles to turn without potentially jam damaging a vehicle that's parked on the side. So, uh, understand it's, you know, that policy is in place. um and it and it will affect some older parts of Lake Elmo as the work comes along. um and it's not just a willy-nilly policy that we're going to put no parking signs on there, but we do want to make sure that, you know, people have access to their driveways well and easy enough and we understand that that people have parties or graduation parties or whatnot. and that uh we do have a vehicle if you're going to have a lot of parking on say a weekend or something. It's not a cost for a permit. You call into the city, get a little tag for the no parking signs and it's it's covered for that time and then and then Chief Kais will get the notice that there's going to be parking there this weekend. So, they'll be aware of that. The other thing is um some of these roads in Lake Elmo are performing well. the normal everyday traffic on it, your passenger vehicle, your pickup really does minimal damage. If anything, the damage is coming from uh overweight vehicles such as garbage trucks. And some neighborhoods see, you know, eight in a day, four with trash and four with recycling, depending on who's using what service. um but the the high uh the city engineer used the word moisture and I've said it before but uh my professor in college said worst things wor three worst things for pavement is water and water. So, as much as we can do to make sure that that water sheds into a drainage system to help support the the roadway so the subgrid you don't create a bathtub and exacerbate that freeze thaw system. uh one thing that I'm pretty proud of that the city council did uh previous a couple years ago was put in a pavement management plan for the city which we had none before. So, taking a look at our roadways and rating them and making sure that we are doing uh preventative maintenance on them to help extend the life because all of our all of our taxes go into making sure that the infrastructure uh for a city is is uh up to date. uh whether that was done or not previously, I I can't speak to that, but we um it's in place now and should be there moving forward. I really do appreciate all the people that came to speak on this project. It it shows the interest and uh the care of your area and your home and uh it's very much appreciated. Thank you. I do want to speak to Mr. doer of find out this road in New York just cuz I'm interested about it and uh I would like us to take a look at some roadways that he pointed out with some large cracking that have been done five or six years ago and see what what's going on there. So I appreciate that that information, sir. With that, uh call the question. All those in favor of the motion to approve resolution 2025-038, please signify by saying I. **City Council:** I. I. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Motion passes. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Motion to authorize the city administrator enter into a material testing contract for the project construction phase services and then not to exceed amount of 30,000 for the 2025 street utility improvements. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Support. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** We have a motion and a second for city administrator to enter in material testing contract. I'm just going to call the question on this. All those in favor, please signify by saying I. **City Council:** I. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Motion passes. Thank you very much. Next on our agenda is accept bids and award contract bids for Old Village Garden improvements. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** Evening, mayor and council. Bringing back tonight the old village garden improvement project. Um we had worked with the community group connect lake Elmo and the Rotary Club and uh the architect on main street. We uh had an open house that was held an open house that was held at the library April 3rd. Uh we gained community feedback and also met with the Washington County engineers about the rightway restrictions with trees and received their recommendations. We can do a presentation and then stand for more questions. **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** Mayor and members of the council. uh Sarah Evenson, city of Lake Elmo, landscape architect. Happy to be in front of you all again. um as we've done some additional work on this project since the last time I was here. um so I'll give you a little overview of our purpose of the project, where we're at now with the species se selection, the um recquote of the um garden project, and then motion. Just to remind you all, um, back in September, Connect Lake Elmo, um, had recommended a beautifification project, um, for the old village gardens. um, and following, uh, up on that, we had prepared, um, a set of plans and quoted them out and were directed to go ahead and, um, re-engage with Connect Lake Elmo and see if we could get some additional community engagement and, um, get some feedback on what people's preferences were for that planting and what they wanted to see. um so we worked with Connect Lake Elmo um put together a series of boards and advertised um for an openhouse that was held um at the library here. um and we got some feedback about people's um preferences on the planting plans and just you know inform them about the project in general. um it's always good to have engagement when things are going to be um changing in people's backyards um or rather front sort of main street. um so we want to update and refresh these planting beds, make them more inviting, ensure that they are um uh properly designed um so that they look neat and they look welcoming. um and they're going to sort of last in good standing, a bit longer than the last go round. um so what we ended up doing was we took um three initial uh planting schemes that were developed in conjunction with um Steven Masti who's a local landscape architect and we presented those to the general public um at the open house on April 3rd. um it was a very well attended event as far as open houses go. We had over two dozen people. um and we also took some feedback from business owners who weren't able to attend that was passed on to us as well. So, what we heard, um, first and foremost, people are really excited to see that these uh gardens are being revisited, um, and some care is being taken into redesigning them. um a lot of the people that we spoke with at one time or another had volunteered to maintain the old gardens and so emphasizing a commitment to maintenance was really a big deal for them and they were happy to hear that um that will be emphasized moving forward. Overall um planting scheme wise, people tended to gravitate more towards the um long sort of seasons of bloom with a variety of blooms um more of the pollinator friendly um planting scheme. um and so based on that and in conjunction with Steven Masti who again wellrespected landscape designer um landscape architect um we revised the planting plans to fold in some of his techniques um and carry forward that spread of blooms throughout the seasons. um so we made a couple tweaks. um business owners had expressed um that they really liked the tulips that weren't originally in this plan. It was daffodil originally. So, we swap those out. um we're doing a matrix planting now, which is kind of like offsets of grasses with flowers tucked in, so you'll see pops of color throughout the season. um we followed spacing recommendations that were also provided by Stephen. And so overall we I feel like we melded um the public preference based the design on one of his original schemes and just made a couple of tweaks um in order to sort of bring it all together. um overall the planting pallet is um largely native um easily maintainable, very drought tolerant, salt and pollution resistant um and it also meets height guidelines that were recommended by um the Washington County engineers. um the previous planting had incorporated some taller grasses um and that's part of what contributed to the messy look. So we won't be seeing that here. um all of these species are about two feet um with some seed heads up to three, but sight lines are maintained and it should be overall a much neater um approach. There are also trees, you'll note, that we were able to incorporate um this time around. um and so um I'll talk a little bit about that. So we talked again to the Washington County engineers. They talked about how there were a couple of locations where trees um weren't incorporated along the roadway probably due to budget um and that the main sort of consideration on their part was that we wanted to maintain pruning heights of six feet or higher so that we can maintain sight lines. um we got survey information and didn't find any um major utility conflicts in two separate locations um where they hadn't originally installed um planting beds for the for trees. There's two locations and I'm going to mouse over them right here by the um just north of the library and then kind of by the library. um and so in those two spots we feel like as part of a future project we could take out some hardscape and put in um uh enough soil volume to successfully accommodate trees if you guys thought that that was something of interest. There's also three locations where there are smaller ornamental trees planted that actually don't meet the pruning guidelines that were requested by the county engineers. um so we would also recommend if we did a future tree planting project that those species be pulled out and then replaced with trees that are going to grow large enough that we can prune them up. um there's also been some pruning on the west side of the road of the smaller crab apples that needs to be um remedied. And so we would like to do some um follow-up pruning on that side of the road as well. um but as part of the project for this year, we have three trees that we feel like we could reasonably put in given the soil volumes that exist. um one is, um a smaller uh gladiator crab apple to match the other crab apples on the west side of Lake Elmo Avenue. um right on the corner of 34th Street. Across the street from that, um we have room for an Armstrong red maple, which is columnar and can be pruned up, so it's not going to um impact the sidewalk or people walking, but it will add a pop of fall color. And then on um the north side of the project site along 36 um there are two planting beds that we can expand um in conjunction with the property owner there which is the church um who has okayed this. We can expand those planting beds and provide an additional tree as well. um they have some very successful swamp white oaks growing in that area. um so we had originally planned for a swamp white oak, but received some feedback in the community engagement that um some of the acorns can be annoying. um and so we swapped out that for a sort of non-fruiting um variety tree. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** So, it's a little bit about what's going in this year and then a little bit about what could be a potential future project um to incorporate additional shade trees. We have a question. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Yeah, question. with the three that are existing that are smaller ornamental or and um maybe need to be pulled. Yeah. Do we know why? If it's based upon sight lines, why were they put there to begin with? **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** So, my understanding is that they were replacement trees um because the trees that had been installed there had died and maybe it was about what could be procured at the time. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** Yes. um public works did replace a couple of those trees here in the last year or two. And the trees that we selected were trees that um our last architect um selected with council based on hardiness and such, not specific for this exact location, but for our other medians and roadways. So that's what was planted and replaced. good with salt and good for other things, right? **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Gotcha. Thank you. **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** Yeah, they could be relocated. They're not in bad condition. um it was part of the feedback that we received as part of the engagement that these species would be better somewhere else and that shade trees would be preferred along this roadway. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Yes. With our extensive conversation about roadways today, um have there had been any discussion around the root systems with these trees being put in of cracking roads, sidewalks, parking lots, things like that? **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** Yeah. So, um the two new tree locations, um my recommendation for putting those in would be to use structural soils. So instead of just taking out the rest of the trees are planted in a very narrow boulevard section and then covered with permeable papers. I think it's um roughly 90 square feet or I would have to look at the drawings, but it's it's not a huge amount of soil volume that they have. Sure. Um the new ones, if we were to do it ideally, I would recommend taking out a portion of the existing sidewalk, putting in structural soils beneath that, and then repaving that. um we would include a um permeable pa section along the roadway to match the rest of the streetscape. So it would after it's all said and done it would look the same and of the same piece. um but there would actually be more accessible soil volume for those trees to take root in. And that really is what helps um prevent cracking of sidewalks and roadways. um because if you give them the space, they'll go there. Otherwise, if they're gonna be hardy and survive, they have to take that space somehow, and that's when you get sort of that upheaval. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** So, have you seen that process be successful in the past? **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** Yeah. um structural soils are um more expensive but definitely worthwhile. They give trees a better shot at actually achieving more of a um mature um canopy than traditional street trees, which my city's arborist um usually refers to their planting as um street coffins. um so I like to try to avoid that where possible. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Got it. Okay. Thank you. **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** All right. So, we um took the revised plans and we sent them out for quotes um to three separate um potential contractors um Margolus, Hoffman, MC Magnamera, and Pioneer. All three of these firms do work um within Lake Elmo. um and we have experience with all of them um through our work um with development plan reviews and the tree warranty reviews. um Margolus came in the highest for install costs. P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P Pioneer came in middle range and then Hoffman McNamera came in the lowest. Um, we also asked for quotes for maintenance knowing that that's going to be a priority moving forward after um the year warranty is up. um and that was kind of interesting because Margolus came in the lowest, Hana Macamera came in the highest and Pioneer came in middle again. um so what we ended up doing was extrapolating that out. um so even after a year or even after four years if you did hire the same firm for both maintenance and installation um Hoffen and Macra did come in the most affordable. um and our assumption for that was three weeding cutting and cleanup visits per year and then four um watering visits annually. Understanding that you might want to get them out for watering more frequently during drought years. um we just can't predict So the recommendation um in front of you all relates to um the hiring of Hoff Hoffman and Mcamera um based on their quoted amount but uh open it up for questions **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** questions. Don't have any you speaking about something I don't know a lot about and it looks great. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** I'll second that. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Mayor Which part? **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Both. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** I know it's hard for you to believe. I know Council Member Holtz always has something to ask. I put you on the spot. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** No, actually. Exact. So, yes. So, if those three are then taken out, you said they're healthy and they could be moved. Mhm. I mean, obviously we took we you all took down hundreds of trees, but is there a lowhanging fruit where that specific type of ornamental place, especially on maybe in one of our parks or something where it would be an easy fit for public works? **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** We'll definitely find a good spot. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** All right. solid. Because that that's a honestly because those are several years old now, so that's value gained right there. They're already growing and healthy. So, okay, good to know. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Motion to approve the old village garden improvement plans as proposed by HKGI and contract with Hoffman and McNamera for removal and installation in 2025 and a contract out professional annual maintenance in future years for the old village gardens along Lake Elmo A not to exceed 50,290 in 2025 **Council Member Nick Kragness:** support. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** So discussion I I have it's kind of a question but it's question for council member. Were you able to attend the open house as a business owner on village? **Council Member Matt Hirn:** I didn't make the open house but I know a lot of the businesses in the area made it there. um and I know they really appreciate it. I don't mean to hijack your discussion here but I I jump into it right away of just saying I I really do appreciate all the effort that Marty and Sarah have put in. I know Stephen um which I he's a his business is right next to mine and I know he's very passionate about this and has provide a lot of information which is very helpful and just exciting to see the community um connect lake Elmo obviously being part of it um and then you know when we did when they did the uh engagement with the community getting a lot of you know a couple dozen that's a that's very good you know that's very good especially for like a smaller project that it's not like a year-long engagement process I I mean, I was really impressed, which is great to see. So, I just think overall, I mean, I know we kind of had the little hiccup at first where we said, "Hey, you know, we'd like to see a little bit more of that." And I really appreciate everything that was done after that point to bring the community in and and and I know it's challenging with multiple uh parties being involved and with their ideas. um and so I know that's challenging, but I really appreciate uh the effort and just keep pushing forward and and making this uh a reality. And um you know, obviously as a a citizen, I'm really excited about this. You know, we walk down there with our kids all the time. There's lots of new shops there, so it's just going to make it much more enjoyable. um as a business on Main Street, it's great to see this as well. um so I just think overall, I'm really excited about it. And sorry to hijack your I wanted your input and that's that's really kind of what I wanted to hear. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** I'm I'm excited for something that's been been a blight in the uh in our old village for some time to actually look attractive uh after a while of it not really being what it was meant to be. So, sorry. Go ahead. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Last thing. I I like that we planned the maintenance as well. um I know that was kind of the it seems like the downfall of the the previous effort with this. um I I really like seeing that. I I don't know if that was the idea of like every single year they're going to continue coming out with that maintenance. **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** You know, the maintenance funding hasn't been authorized yet, but what this the 50,290 will cover, you know, the warranty period, which typically lasts a full year. Yeah. um so then after that, you would authorize. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Okay. And so I guess my my just my one comment on that is I'd really like to um hopefully continue to work with Connect Lake Elmo, especially like with businesses in that area to try to take part in helping out however the businesses can. um to be quite honest, that was actually one of my big concerns going into this in the first place is I almost kind of felt like it was something more that the businesses should have been taken care of versus the city possibly. um so I think at least moving forward, I'd really like to see the businesses that are on that street really uh continue to be involved with maintaining it and making sure that, you know, continues to be as nice as it's going to look here in year one. um and then I know last thing I know there was I heard there was some conversation about um I don't know how this could work with it. uh but maybe just conversations to have as far as um some like sponsorship opportunities if people want to pay for a planting. um you know, just again to make it a little bit more of a community event um to help pay for it a little bit. um and it's just kind of a cool way, you know, I think when I had the conversation with Stephen, it was um around poppies that has uh um has something to and I apologize, I don't know know this, but has something to do with um veterans. And so they were saying as far as like, you know, if you wanted to sponsor a poppy um it'd just be a cool way of, you know, saying, "Hey, like, you know, this was part of our history, a family member, somebody who served in the military. If we could do something like that just as we're kind of moving along, I think that'd be a cool thing to look into. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Is there and I'm not sorry I don't know this, but is there a veterans park within Lake Elma? **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** The VFW field is right there. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** We have a there's a plaque over there. **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** There there's a plaque and a a flag pole on small planting under it. Yeah, that sounds like an incredible idea for but just something like that. that was connect Elmo and Stephen had thought of that and I just thought that'd be a really great if if it's possible to do as we're moving forward to keep the community involved with **Sarah Evenson (Landscape Architect):** yeah I I think it was a really good opportunity for us to connect with uh connect like Elmo and um just to we had talked about you know like using it as a relationship as a precedent sort of like able to because they're great at engaging the community um and I think that's a great resource to have and um so for landscape based projects moving forward um I think there's a lot of opportunity there. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Great. Thank you. You're good. I'm done. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** You're good. Promise. Pro. Okay. The only original thought I would have to add on to that and I fully agree with that is this project while it is small, it's also impactful. This is a prime corridor uh in the old village. And I think it's also an example of a time when government is able to coordinate and I appreciate the work in this case Marty and Sarah but also with Lake uh with connect to Lake Elmo and with the business owners that coordination doesn't always happen. It doesn't, especially when it comes time to, in this case, we're expending tax dollars, but it was based upon kind of a joint venture. Like we we didn't create a joint venture contract or anything, but it was based upon a process that could have easily been said no or frustrations mount or something happens. And so, credit to all those involved. uh, I think connect Lake Elmo is an example of why things I think the last several years have been growing in certain ways in terms of vitality and having those opportunities to have a sense of community especially in our downtown. And this is then something that happens when you do those things. And so credit to all those who are involved and yeah, it's a small project but it will have a meaningful impact. And I look forward to honestly other examples where these opportunities exist. This is one example and it involves landscaping in this specific area, but I have no doubt there will be other opportunities such as a sports complex. Just throwing that out there, man. All right, I'm going to call the question. All those in favor of the motion to approve the old village garden improvement plans is proposed by HKGI city's landscape architect and contract Hoffman McNamera for removal and installation in 2025 and a contract all professional annual maintenance into future years for the old village gardens along Lake Elmo Avenue not to exceed 50,000 $290 in 2025. Please signify by saying I. **City Council:** I. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Motion passes. Thank you very much. So Marty, you get to stay up there, right? Yeah. So the next item on the agenda is sidewalk snow removal ordinance update. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** All right, guys. You might get another preview of this and try to queue it up for you. Sure. Awesome. Maybe need Julie's help. Do you mind? uh, good evening, Mayor and Council. Again, we are also bringing back the snow removal on the trail uh ordinance as discussed in an earlier council meeting uh March 11th. um council reviewed the the request for snow removal on trails once again and had concluded that um possibly clearing some of the trails in streets uh without sidewalks on them might uh increase the connectivity of the walkability of the city. um council's direction was for staff to go back relook at the ordinance um include some definitions in sidewalks and trails and then um kind of determine what trails might be included in this ordinance change. um I did not use the new the new and improved. No, I'll be the last. It's also a little hard to look at snow right now. So, Marty, if you go hit that little icon that next to the uh where it says 59% just to the left of that down. Go down. Go to the Go to your right now. Keep going. That go back. Oh, right there. Hit that. I never knew that was What does that do? That'll There you go. All right. If it was a snow plow, you'd know what to do. All right, you knew that. And how does it forward? Use the arrows on the Just hit the arrow button. Have I never seen that button there before? I've never seen that. Is that new? No. No. Never looked. I haven't used that either. Oh boy. There's two options up top. I never had to get to the third. Why is there a third one down there? That's the only one I've ever Oh, that's it. I couldn't tell you to put it in presentation. Sorry, I didn't have this included in the packet for you to look at. got a chance to review here later and sooner. Um, we had some of this some of the trails that would be affected would be a section on 50th Street. um clearing would be pretty much done by abudding property owners. uh I didn't see any property that uh city owned where public works would be maintaining that trail. um so we have 50th Street, Eastn Village, we have Pilot Park. So there's a section of trail there without a sidewalk on the opposing side. um farms of Lake Elmo. There's a couple of sections of trail there without sidewalk on the opposite side of the street. um Lake Elmo Avenue. um this is from Still Water kind of on the old village along the school. um cleared by HOA by public works and some commercial property along with some residents. uh hidden meadows. This is in the north part of the the city. um there's a large section of trail that would be budding the church property on the south. um public works has a a couple of outlots for storm water um that we would be responsible to clear and along with a number of residents that would have some clearing responsibility. uh Hudson Boulevard. uh this trail is not quite finished yet, but we expect it to be soon. um public works has a responsibility for some of the some of these sections of the trail. um numerous businesses um open development land and then some HOA property certainly multiple people responsible for clearing that. 30th Street we have uh this is kind of by Reed Park east of residents will be responsible HOA is responsible and then public works has some responsibility as well G uh Nick will be responsible for the majority of this we uh there's a there's a number of areas here public works would have responsibility for too. HOA has a would be responsible for some along with some HOA sanctuary. um there's two sections of trail without sidewalk on them. Same thing. HOA, public works and a few residents would have some responsibility. Field of St. Croy. um this general area along Stillwater Way, Stillwater Boulevard. There's not much for sidewalk in these areas, but there is trails in the road right away. And that's key as to how I wrote up our planning department and I wrote up the uh ordinance change is these trails would you know abuck the road in the road right away. So there's a number of areas here that would need to be cleared. Wildflower has a section and that is it. um like I said, um if you got a chance to read the ordinance change, it would affect the trails in a road right away only. So, if uh if a trail sets back in an outlot out of the road right away, it's not wouldn't be included in this. And I stand for questions. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Council member Holtz. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Number one, thank you for the visuals and if we vote for this, what do you think would be a good way to help communicate the changes then because this is I mean it's a hodgepodge of a spot here, a spot there and obviously from GIS we know but are we are we thinking maybe a mailer and a couple other things because it right I assume we're also need multiple instances to reinforce because this will be a pretty substantial change for random OM property owner here, Andy Chase along County 14, obviously city for Eastn Village along the park, but it's it's so random in that case, right? **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** um Kathy and you know the uh she's our expert with sharing information. So I mean we'll definitely um I recommend even before it gets too close to fall, start sharing that information um maybe with property owners directly. um the church, uh you know, there's there's a couple of big outlots or big land developers that are going to have some responsibilities that they probably want to budget for. You know, um these people aren't going to go out and shovel these things. So, um you know, by sharing that information, maybe that'll help them plan for winter with a budget and a contractor to kind of help them out. So, yeah, we do have a few ideas that we're definitely going to I'd like to push it out before we get too close to fall. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** I think it's a good point. um one thing we could work with too are the homeowners associations um because they have their meetings with the residents could advise them and in some cases like in our HOA we do our HOA plows a lot of the trails that are used as sidewalks where there aren't residents. um pro Wilk because we're the ab budding property owner, but I mean I think the HOAs could be helpful in getting that message out. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** Yeah, we have a good list of HOA contacts. So that might be a great source just to send to every HOA. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Have have some of the property owners like that you were mentioning where you know with the farmland where they'd be clearing a lot of trail have they been contacted prior to tonight's meeting by chance talk right and there are a few sections uh Keats Avenue if we look back at that um south of the park preserve there's trail on both sides of Keats in the county road right um Miller has a big pit and I'm only guessing, but I'm sure that's all of it's going to be several thousand feet of trail on his side. um the opposite side of Butt's residential properties. So hope, you know, I guess we could hope that the HOA would maybe be involved in clearing that, but **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Council member Holtz. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** So thank you for that example. So in the case of Keats south of 10th because it's county and it's in the county right away. So county doesn't clear any trails. So if how we typically maintain if there's something the city wants maintained um in the rightway such as a trail we would probably be the ones involved in that. I know I can't think of right now what we've done, but there's situations where we if that I know we've been involved with where we've completed maintenance on something that we've wanted to see maintained. Can we legislate this being as it's not our rightway? **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Well, the correct me if I'm wrong on this, Nate or Marty, but when the there is a project on a county road, they don't automatically put in a trail. They put in a trail at the request of the city and it's typically the city's 100% cost for that trail in the rightway. And then the assumption of that trail is taken on by the city, I believe. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Yeah. I'm not sure if that's the case for every situation. I think there was some cost sharing on some. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** um when we seal coded, we we did not include either of these trails. um you're talking about Keats on Keats, correct? um we looked back and had legal review of some of the agreements and maintenance on those particular trails for the asphalt nodding um the city's responsibility. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Okay. So I wouldn't say that every trail in the rightway is maybe the same. **Council Member Nick Kragness:** All right. Interesting. Okay. Thanks. I'm going to make a a motion to include sidewalk definition in ordinance 1-08-010 and not include the trail snow removal language as outlined to be included in the sidewalk snow removal ordinance 9.16.120. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** So the motion is to include sidewalk definition only update that. **Council Member Nick Kragness:** Yep. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Okay. Is there a second? **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Second. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Right. We have a motion and a second to include a sidewalk definition in ordinance 108010. Discussion. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Council member her. I'm I'm just a little concerned at this point. well, one I'm concerned in general just because of the the hodgepodge is was used as kind of the um for these areas that would need to be cleared. um I think that's going to be challenging in of itself. I think it's going to be challenging to um enforce this. uh and then I think the other thing, at least for right now, and maybe even if this just has to get put on hold, if everybody else really wants this, at a bare minimum, I'd like to see this just get pushed so we could communicate a little bit probably more with the residents. um especially in some of these areas where they're going to have to be clearing a lot of snow. um I guess that's a concern of mine. I bad on me. I guess I should have probably reached out to them before this. I just thought of that right now that none of them have probably been communicated to at this point. be more in the future and it's not a um you know it's not a one where something's required to get sent out but you know thinking about it obviously this is something that would be pretty impactful. um the visuals also helped me kind of realize what we're talking as far as the kind of the randomness of where these areas would need to be cleared and sometimes the um the size of scope of some of these clearings. um so I guess that kind of brought some of that to light in my some of the reasoning behind my motion to not include the snow removal um for trails. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Council member Jerry sitch initiated most of this discussion early on and part of it is because there are areas where there should have been sidewalks installed according to our ordinances and building requirements and they weren't. So, if you go up Palmer Drive in the Royal and as you head from 10th Street up to about King's Queen's Court, um, well, King's Court, it's concrete sidewalk. Then all of a sudden, it changes the Batuminous Trail. So, the residents who live along the concrete are required to clear the concrete sidewalk so people can walk. And the residents live along the puminous trail aren't required to clear that sidewalk. So, there's an inequity in that whole situation. If it's a hard surface and it's used as a sidewalk and we want our residents to be able to walk in the winter, it that should be, you know, it doesn't function as a sidewalk, you should be required to clear the snow from it. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Is that the the one that's up on the screen right now? Is that where you're talking about? **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Yeah. I um yeah, if you look for where that red line is, yeah, that is all Batuminous Trail, but it functions and then on the but it functions as a sidewalk because that for whatever reason the developer is not required to put concrete sidewalks along the street, even though our ordinance said they should have, but then further to the west, it turns into concrete. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** It's everything that's not um that's not in red is is concrete on the south side for the east or excuse me further east on the on the west side. Yeah. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Yeah. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** That's all concrete sidewalk east side. Yeah. So intriguingly can you go back to the eastern village park one 30th. We're we're we're done talking about Royal now. **Council Member Nick Kragness:** Oh by the park. Yeah. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** It was like slide two or three. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** three. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Yeah, because that's a curiosity as well. Like why is the sidewalk on the north side and the east side but not on the southwest and south? It's the same thing. Like it functions as a sidewalk. It literally makes no and I've never understood it. You two are engineers. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** It it lacks consistency. uh and that's that's frustrating. Probably just it's something we just missed at that time where when we see this that's you'd want more continuity with it. Yeah. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** So, in the hypothetical council member Hearn of approval of the change of the sidewalk language but then not the snow removal. I mean I'm— **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Oh yeah. Well, okay. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** So, playing that out, trails means asphalt paved service, not less than that. So, there wouldn't be any conflict thus far with your proposal because no trail. They're not juxtaposed yet. It wouldn't be saying that this is a tra this is now considered for all intents and purposes a walkable path that needs to be followed. It's it's not going to that point yet. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** Well, I mean it does say asphalt paved surface versus concrete surface. So this I mean that would still be considered a trail on the south. um I mean, I think if there's two examples of this in the city and they're that small of sections, like I'd rather just say, "Hey, like, you know, can the city clear that um small amount versus there are I've seen other cities uh select specific sections of trails and that's it. So, I mean, if if this confuses and puts a huge burden on some people, that might be something we look at is just to include specific sections. I kind of think of it like our um the crosswalk scenario where um there's some criteria for it. um but in the end, there's some criteria just to even kind of have it be something that could be brought to us in the first place. um but then we kind of look at a situation by situation basis versus I don't know, just the the randomness of what would be occurring with this just seems um pretty overwhelming to me. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** I did my best to locate any of these scenarios. It's not saying I couldn't have missed one. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** So, well, and honestly, thank you for compiling this, too, because it definitely helps to then see what we're how this plays out. I mean, are we aware of any other from those ones that were shown that were kind of like the unique situation um like the Royal or like this Eastn Village one? **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** What would the one uh in Carriage Station Park be categorized for, Marty? Between the question, mayor. uh what would the one in carriage station that doesn't abut? It's on the back side of homes. It's between what is that Maris Trail and uh 50th? **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** Yes, that would not apply. It's not in the road right away. The way Got it wrote this. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Okay. So, it's in the road right away. I think the intent was it was in the road right away. Functions as a sidewalk. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Got it. So, that's where the balancing act. So, there's already countless ones that are already removed to make the hodge podge a smaller hodge podge, right? So, now we're down to the ones that are functioning as a sidewalk, right? And do our residents deserve to have those cleared? I think we all agree the answer is yes. Next question is then by who? The intriguing one for me is the two county ones along Keats and along County 14 because those are such large stretches and we do see people using that for recreation for walking. I don't because I don't believe in exercise but other people do and they do it in the winter and they do it in the late fall. They do it in the early spring. I mean I'm in I'm intrigued. I think as a as a city need to be cognizant of the additional resources that it would take to remove trails, not just uh monetary wise, but staff-wise as well. and trails have not been included in that in the past. Again, I've always advocated for trying to grow our business depths so we wouldn't have to raise taxes on the residents where we're very rooftop, still fairly rooftop heavy in the city. and any increase in that is would make the the taxpayers cover that cost as opposed to being absorbed by an additional tax base. Here, one way to maybe compromise on this would be to state that the trail has to be in the city right of way that would lift the obligation on county roads. if that's our concern. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Right. The part I and I like that for two out of three. The one I don't like is then for Lake Elmo A because that then is a that county road is being used by residents to try to get into downtown. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** So, we should just tell the county to pay for it. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** I would like to move that we table this discussion till our next meeting so we can think about this a little more and perhaps we'll have some additional thoughts, a workshop or something maybe again. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Yeah. So the you're making a motion to table table to the next meeting. Okay. uh is there support for tableabling? **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** There's a second. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** All in favor of tableabling the topic until the next meeting, please signify by saying I. **City Council:** I. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Right. Topic's tabled. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** um mayor and council, is there some direction that you would like to give staff on what we should prepare? We don't know. Bring back otherwise, we're just going to **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Right. So, it is a it seems to me it's a bit of a quagmire of of situations and I think I don't want to uh assume uh council member Dragus's indication. And it was trying to get places that are supposed to be able to walk on where the city has not been consistent in the development of certain areas to have it only be sidewalk or only be trail. And they mixed them. and therefore the ordinance is somewhat inconsistent with that uh in intended use. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Well, and it might be on council to chew on it ourselves and to think what we want to maybe we literally come back with the same proposals and just vote on it or maybe come back and vote on Nick's amendment. I don't know if there's anything additional for like you gave us the options. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Yeah, I don't know if there is anything. I think we might just need having the visuals now. I think turns the wheels a bit more. I This isn't on staff. This is on us for needing to decide, right? **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** I mean, maybe we come back and I think part of the dilemma is like on the county roads where we have these things that function as sidewalks. If we say, "Well, those folks don't have to clean those sidewalks and the city's not going to clean them." Then we create some unintended problems like Lake Elmo Avenue. And so my thought was maybe as a council, give us some more thought, we might come up with some compromise that works. um maybe it's on those county roads we have to decide as a organization if we're willing to incur the cost of doing them. um because we can't force someone to clear somebody else's right away, right? And that becomes an, you know, then how do we fund that? We just haven't had a chance to see the visuals and and ponder that thought. But maybe by the next meeting some bolt of lightning will strike us and we'll find a compromise because I do think Elmo Avenue is important to you. We don't want to not have that cleared. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Right. And uh just just to add to this confusion or a little bit or you're not supposed to add to supposed to make clarifications. I was looking for a clarification in our recently adopted strategic plan for direction and it so it doesn't really help. It says promote walkability and connectedness through planned and maintained sidewalk and trail systems. Yes. And that was in our plan. **Council Member Matt Hirn:** So So Nate understands when proposal developments come through there's to be consistency between trails and sidewalks as we move forward. Hear that? **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** Yeah. Every word of it. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** So, we can't change the past, but we can make sure the future's much brighter. And maybe maybe for some help, Marty could advise us on some of those county roads, you know, what will be the time and and effort to clear those so we're not making a decision in a vacuum. If he says it's a week of time every time it snows, that's different than if it's 10 hours, you know? I mean, we'd have some put some context to it. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** Well, if you have a winter like it was last year, it's two times a year. If you have a winter like it was three years ago, then it's going to be every week. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** I was thinking on the average mayor. Love it. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** I mean maybe that's that's something that we would request then in the case of Lake Elmo a stalwater boulevard and Keats like what do we know if that was contracted versus worst case and best case scenario for your team's labor I I think those are the outliers right the other thing we could do would be to you know to modify the public works director's job description say he has to do it on off hours I don't think fly **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** uh I would never do that to you, Marty. I'll stand firm on that. um yeah, maybe if you could do kind of a time study, work study on what it would take on the county roads where there aren't residents available. It's not, you know, it's not it's behind their house. It's it's on a county road. There's no property owner facing it. Is it? So you know only if there's no abuing resident. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** Yeah. It's not a city right away. If it's not a city right away. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Okay. So Keith's Lake Elmo Avenue because we we'll face the same thing if they ever get around to doing Manning, you know, that stretch. I just presume the county rideway is eventually going to have more. It'll be a thorough fair for pedestrians if we this happens. **Nate Stanley (City Engineer):** It's a thorough fair maybe like Lake Elmo Avenue if they get the new school in extending a trail or sidewalk up to the school that's going to be in there. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** And and maybe I you know I don't know how much trail sidewalk you clear. But maybe there's some other adjacent cities that do more of that that could help you with with you know what time does it take for them to do it? **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Well, now that we tabled it. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** Yeah. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** All right. we're going to move on to upgraded ISO public protection classification. **Dustin Kalis (Fire Chief):** Mayor and council, I don't have a formal presentation on this tonight, but I did include the updated report into the packet for you to review. um every few years we get re-evaluated by the ISO for a public protection classification. The ISO is the insurance service office. They perform a uh a study of the fire department and the water utility and our dispatching capabilities um and provide a uh this PPC number for insurance companies to use when they um write policies and figure out what what we owe on insurance. um ISO is not used by all insurance companies. It's it's truly up to each individual insurance company and how they follow and how they end up writing their policies. But um it is a benchmark that exists. It's the only type of benchmark that we have in the fire service that uh were looked at by an outside organization. um it is in the state performance measures when they look at um the ISO rating. And this work was done um mainly in 2024. um and we just received the the report not too long ago. um spent some time taking a look at it and this updated classification goes into effect June 1st. um so in 2018 we were re-evaluated um and received a classification of five with our um rating last or this this updated rating we're down to a class four. So we've improved um ISO is rated from a scale of one to nine with one being the best and nine being uh um insufficient for fire services. um and we're we're at a four. So there's a number of things that they look at. Like I said, they look at our um how we get and respond to 911 calls. So, they look at the the um how our 91 centre at Washington County um handles the the the 911 calls. um they look at what we're doing as a fire service um as a fire department with our staffing, our training, um our apparatus, and how we form our companies or our crews. and then they take a look at um our water supply. um and fire flows, what we have for hydrants, how we're doing maintenance, how we're doing flow testing. um and then they come up with their rating and in there you can see the scoring sheets um how there there's formulas that aren't visible to us um in this process. um it's not the end- all beall um but it is a a measure that's out there and um some things that we always can strive for um to insurance company use use this to help their analytics on rates for residents potentially potentially if your insurance company uses ISO for this data. some uh there are a number of insurance companies that use their own data um when they're writing policies. I get a phone call probably once a month for someone that's getting uh a new policy underwritten and they just ask us where's your station located, how much water do you have, who do you operate with, and then they write their policy based on that. So, it's definitely not the end- all beall. It's not used by everybody. um like I said in my my memo, I think the number one thing that um our property owners, our insured could do with this updated rating is call their insurance provider and just say, "Hey, I see that Lake Emo has a new ISO rating. Does this impact my my policy?" um but I think the biggest thing that I've seen in my time here is when we add municipal water um to a street or to a neighborhood that maybe um to an existing neighborhood that hasn't had it or we get it closer to your home. um that has made I think the the more considerable jump in in um in policies and what you're paying in your premiums. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** You might have want to let Mr. Schubert know that the previous fire chief is not the current fire chief. **Dustin Kalis (Fire Chief):** I let them know. And that's kind of a a questioning thing when the for a company that gathers a fair amount of data. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** Yep. Something that's supposed to be ISO compliant, that's a little concerning. **Dustin Kalis (Fire Chief):** Yep. I uh that was the first email back to him. So, yeah, I was like, who did they talk? But I wanted to take some time if you had some questions. One of the things that that kind of stood out to me and the the the really the little bit of feedback that I got immediately from ISO um you know we consolidated two stations and and we had a small knock in points based on our deployment analysis because they look at um time from a station in in road miles and when they looked at the Island Trail neighborhood um because we shut down station two station two is like 4.9 miles away from from this neighborhood and our now just over 5 miles away. They don't account for in that analysis the fact that we have staff here or not. Just the fact that the physical station exists. um so again, it's a rating. It's a metric that's out there. It's it's updated. People can contact their insurance providers to see if it's used by them. um but there is definitely good things, you know, we take away because it's a national benchmark and we um you know, yeah, try to try to see where we stand with that. um but if there's if you have questions or or want to get into it, please let me know. um like I said, I kind of stand for questions at this point. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Questions for the chief at this point? There's no action for council. Yes, council member Holtz. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Given that they were 0 for one and calling you Malmquist and then 0 for two with that example. Were there examples that were useful that can be applied? **Dustin Kalis (Fire Chief):** You know, I think um we look at what we can do for training and and to really to gain maximum points in training. We're kind of doing everything we can without saying we're going to add in um you know, we would have to do I think 18 hours of live burn training for every staff every year to meet their maximum points for for that type of training. um we could get pretty close to that. um but I think when you look at what you have to do for other training topics in fire, um it's hours a month and it's just, okay, where do we find that balance for our payown call staff to to to match what the demand is versus what we can do and and fire isn't the only topic that we have to train on. you know, we have to cover a wide gamut of of training topics. So, it's how do you fit this all in? um so we kind of look at that and go, where do we make improvements? I think we've made massive improvements in our pre-planning and fire inspections. We got, you know, 12 full points there um in their metric where we had um zero before. We've um made strides with uh in other areas, but it's we look at what can we do, where can we improve, we can work with public works on on, you know, where we're making uh improvements on fire flow, you know, inspection data, how we record things. you know, we might record things right now in a way that works for us. they might look at an ISO as we need to make some improvements, you know, um with some takeaways like from there. Now that we've got this done, now I can go back and ask our area rep, what do you see? What stands out? um and it's really, you know, up to that individual how they're interpreting the data we're providing them. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** All right. No one else. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. uh, next on the agenda is council reports. Council Member Dragassich. **Council Member Nick Dragisich:** No report. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Council Member Holtz. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** I mean, I'm sure the mayor will mention as well, but it was great to be out on the site yesterday for the groundbreaking at the new elementary off of Tenth and Lake Elmo. uh, it's definitely be a an asset for the community, for those who are within the boundary, and it's definitely a something that'll be here for generations to come. But it was fantastic to be out there and see all those who definitely helped make it happen, including our own staff. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Thank you for coming out. Yeah, that's about all I was going to cover. Thank you. uh, Council Member Heard— **Council Member Matt Hirn:** say the new slide presentations look great. um I I actually think that's a really big thing. you know, the consistency from um when the community members, you know, decide to watch one of these uh when it impacts them. I think that is nice to see the consistency. So, I know it seems like a little thing potentially, but I I think it's great and thanks for doing that and um it's nice to have that consistency. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** uh no report staff reports. **Nicole Miller (City Administrator):** um I just want to talk about our staff appreciation event that we had a couple weeks ago. um it was nice to be able to give staff a little break and we had a waffle and chicken um food truck here and then we had uh council member Holtz who came and said a few words short concise. **Council Member Jeff Holtz:** Yeah. **Nicole Miller (City Administrator):** And then we also had a keynote speaker that talked about personal resiliency um with some examples of her from her life. So it was nice and look forward to incorporating um other fun events to celebrate our staff. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Great. Julie, no report. Thank you. We already heard from you. I just You want to say something else? **Dustin Kalis (Fire Chief):** I do have two quick updates because I I want to uh send my appreciation to public works for helping us out. We took the Libya Avenue brush one skid unit yesterday and put it in service today. Needed the assistance of some uh forklifts and uh toolkit help um to get get that going and get the other one moved down to public work storage. So great. um that was we purchased that unit out of the public safety dollars that we got from legislation um a couple years ago and that finally came in and then also tomorrow Lake Blake Elmo Park Reserve will be doing a large prescribed burn so there will be plenty of smoke in the area they're doing a central burn area um so we'll we'll definitely see smoke in the area and if conditions change in the morning they'll cancel it but they do a really good job there of maintaining the parkland and um they do a lot of training for us and they're they're definitely on top of uh the burning and keeping that uh fuel load **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** Great Marty. **Pete Tholen (Public Works Director):** um, couple updates with the PAST U research. Bay West is installing heavy out there, so it looks a little different. Crane set a lot of the equipment today. And the SAF unit at Tablin is scheduled to be removed by the end of or yeah, end of May, beginning of June. So, okay. We'll see a couple things. **Mayor Charles Cadenhead:** All right. Nate, no report. any report from council is filling in. Thank you very much. um future agenda workshop next week looks like we're talking about uh clear lake development concept plan water treatment plant proposal at 10th and inwood and uh public works operational assessment presentation. With that we'll adjourn the meeting at 9:15. Thank you. I want to take a look at that.