thank you [Music] thank you foreign [Music] foreign foreign foreign stay tuned good evening and thank you for attending the charter review public hearing for the city of Aurora for April 11 2023 the public hearing is now called to order we do have interpretation services available for Spanish for anyone that needs them so just let us know if you do we have some folks here in the audience to speak as well as folks online when we're taking comments and questions we will begin with folks in person and then we will move to the folks that are attending online if you have not signed up to speak then if you're in person you can still raise your hand to come up and ask questions or address the speakers and if you're online you can raise your virtual hand in order to be acknowledged for questions or comments and then if you do speak though you're not currently signed up we will ask that you complete a speaker slip just so that we have that for the public record um so tonight we'll we will be reviewing all of the items that have been brought forward by the council ad hoc Charter Review Committee um and we'll have those for comments and questions before that however we are going to have a background presentations on a strong mayor form of government and process of adoption and then examples of the strong mere form of government in U.S cities from our city staff um for those the reason that we decided to bring them is that we have heard that there is a proposal out there to switch the city of Aurora from a council manager form of government to a strong mayor form of government that has not come before the council ad hoc Charter Review Committee but we still did want members of the public to have information about that and have the opportunity to comment so with me here tonight are the other members of the council ad hoc Charter Review Committee council member Marcano from Ward 4 and council member Lawson at large and without further Ado we will begin with our presentations our first presentation will be a background on strong mayor form and process of adoption by Jeff Wilson yes good evening Madam chair members of the commission it's my pleasure to be here this evening since I it was arranged for me to be here I've received some more coaching on the division of labor between myself and Miss Rogers who you'll be hearing from next she's going to focus more on the substance and I'm going to be primarily focused on on process for this very substantial undertaking that you've asked me to explain in terms of process um fortunately for Aurora you have a very detailed uh initiated Charter Amendment provision in your code beginning at section 54.141 of the code although this section of the code is denominated an initiative provision buried in it is a provision that doesn't have to do with initiative it's the power of the charter to refer any measure as not as many measures as you wish to the people directly so insofar as I'm addressing the manner of of executing this change one way to do it would be for sure you know staff to draft a charter Amendment on your behalf and then you would refer to the people much like the process I'm going to describe here in a moment so um as I understand it there may be an initiated proposal in this regard here in Aurora the the first point I want to make about your process is that the starting gun what starts the running of the clock is entirely in the power of the proponents they begin this whole thing I always have in my mind's eye that turning over of the glass to run the sand it starts when they file a notice of intent with the city once the proponents file a notice of intent with the city to circulate a charter Amendment initiative the clock starts running and within 10 days after doing that the proponent has to submit the form of the amendment to the Charter in ordinance form now one of the things that really impressed me thinking about a strong mayor former government is how front loaded this project is in terms of substantive work as an attorney this is a drafting mother I mean it's a it's a big project it's a huge it's not like a charter amendment to change the number of days to fill a vacancy this is huge it's changing your style of government so so presumably a lot of work is done before the notice of intent is given is what I'm saying because 10 you got to have everything organized by then um the the tax is then turned in in the form of the ordinance along with the petition sections to the clerk for approval as to form the cleric works of the proponents to approve the petition sections as to form and once that's done the another clock starts running the circulation clock the proponents have 120 days to get the signatures on their petitions now they have a choice at that point they can either get a larger number of signatures and petition for a special election date or they can get a lesser number of signatures and have the question appear if they're successful on a regular municipal election ballot after the so so the circuit the 120 days the six months is out there the petition comes back in the clerk has what does the clerk have 30 days within which to conduct his or her initial review of the petitions after they come in during once that is done two things are this is two things can occur one you can have a protest to the initial determination of sufficiency or insufficiency by the clerk and that can go off into district court and you can spend all sorts of time but that process runs its course and then the other thing that has to happen is within 10 days after the initial determination a title is set the clerk sets the title and a submission clause on the measure and that too can be the subject of protests and your ordinances provide expedited procedures for protesting the title and protesting the signature determination and so on and so forth once all of this is done once either the period within which a protest must be filed passes without a protest or if a protest is filed it is completed we reach the final determination of petition sufficiency and when that happens the council ha the matter is submitted to council and you have 30 days after that to submit the matter to the voters for a vote and as I said earlier it's either a special election date or the regular election day um that's the process now in your ordinance there are also sort of back end of the election processes for tabulating ballots and so on and so forth um again the important work in this entire process in my opinion happens before the the even the the notice of intent occurs um it's such a it's such a complex measure and um I guess one of the one of the comments I'll make and that I've seen in other cities is that's often we're in a hurry to do these things even regular Charter amendments because our election process is fairly complicated these days and we're often doing coordinated elections in conjunction with other jurisdictions we're not totally in charge of everything and and uh and but that I don't think it my comment I don't think that relieves us of the obligation and especially on something like strong mayor to get it right I mean this is really important stuff um so um oh and and uh in terms of just a political down at the cap I worked a bunch of years down at the state Ledger Mr Wilson I'm sorry can you check and make sure your mic is on I'm realizing we can hear you but the folks on YouTube may not be able to right okay it's on all right thank you um down at the Capitol we used to not want to fix bad bills because it made them harder to kill you know uh and and but I think this is something different you know one of these things it's I I my personal opinion is there's sort of a public trust obligation to get the proposal right if the people enact the thing whatever you think of it you know at least it'll be operationally functional it you know you'll the people will be provided with a a government that works um so I think the drafting on something like this has you know has to be done very carefully very deliberately very the drafting has to be very clear one of the great things um we have in this state is a fairly recent example of a city going through this and that's Colorado Springs and Colorado Springs had the Good Fortune to have their attorneys working with the proponents while the measure was pending and that is awesome if you have a situation like that because then everybody agrees he you can you can get the proposal correct and then duke it out over the policy merits of The Proposal in the election but if the people make the choice you at least will have something that works and I know from looking at what Colorado Springs adopted uh first at the ballot it was incredibly complex a very major changes to the Charter as you can imagine in the area of the executive branch Authority the legislative branch Authority the Personnel systems you know lots of stuff that needs to be worked out and and I guess I'll I'll close with this um one of the things that we also know from Colorado Springs is that if the people approve this Charter event this substantial Charter remember you're just getting started you know then it's the code and then the attorneys will have to go through the city code and bring to you various changes in the code to to implement you know or to facilitate the charter changes and I would suspect that the attorney's office might well have a suite of ordinance changes that are teed up and ready to go should the people vote Yes to ease the implementation of this so that's my presentation on process I'd be delighted to answer any questions oh and I should have said my apologies to your clerk because that was necessarily a 30 000 foot overview there you know there's a lot of detail I didn't talk about in the ordinance okay great thank you so much for that General overview um I guess my first question is that it sounds like this is a six month plus process if we follow the procedure and we're about six months out give or take well a little more than six months but not a lot more than six months out from the election so this may be a question for our city clerk more than for you we were trying to get everything to the county clerks by about mid-may um or I mean mid-june for uh getting the ballots and everything certified for the election um so my question is would it be possible for example if they got the signatures more quickly to do this process in that abbreviated time period that we currently have for getting all of our ballot questions certified to the county clerks you know I thought I might get that question and uh with the caveat that I haven't sat down and looked at the work that scenario out for this November um I think yeah you could you'd have to really hustle to get the signatures that would be that 120 days you wouldn't use all six wines you don't have six months you want to get it on the November Valley you got to really move out you don't know if there's going to be a protest you don't know how long that's going to take to derail your effort to get on the ballot maybe your opposition wants to file a protest to derail knowing the calendar you know so there's all kinds of tactical stuff that happens if you're the proponent and you have to think about okay so the only part of that set of times or days that you laid out that could be abbreviated though would be that signature Gathering all of those other time periods would have to be abided by in terms of giving time for protests giving time for all the other steps to be completed well yeah I know this the same caveat I mean I've seen situations where the the opponents will say we're not going to file a protest we're going to take it to the people so they'll they'll let you know that the period for of course you don't know who the protesters are necessarily so you have to let the period ride I take that back so yeah basically you have to let those these are opportunities afforded to the public to protest the title or protest signatures and it's come one come all you can't cut them short okay X for that are there other questions from members of the committee council member lossman yes can I I guess Jeff I have a question so I just for a clarification purposes if this is a city citizen initiative where I'm kind of getting confused is when you stated that if the signatures all are verified and I mean I guess that's within the protests period you said that it comes to counsel for approval for to go to The Ballot or is that to determine if it's going to be on a regular or a special session well that is let me take those in Reverse okay the whether you're on a regular or special election is determined by the proponents and by the number of signatures they get if they get the greater number then they get a special election in that you get to designate the election I believe there are their choice so they work with a clerk on when that will occur I didn't look at that aspect closely before tonight but um what was the tell me the rest of your question again excuse me um I think you you answered it I guess what I was confused about a little bit I understand about the citizen initiative and about the proponents but when you stated that it would have to come to council so can you just explain I'm just trying to understand why would something why would it come to council for to is that not for approval not for approval to go on to the ballot because if the citizens say that they want this to go correct then it goes but I'm just confused about that part that you see this is a good question this is different from an initiated ordinance where in most cities we have the indirect form of initiative where the petition is delivered to you all you have the opportunity to adopt what is proposed and and and then you don't have to have a special election but if you decline to do that then you refer it to the voters within a certain period of time and they get to decide whether or not to adopt this matter with a charter Amendment your duties are more ministerial all you do is direct the clerk to place the better on the ballot there's no up or down about it at that stage and then council member can I ask additional question just one other question about Colorado Springs I know that they probably were a little bit more you know when you're saying we have to change the ordinances and things but there were it was a transition so are you kind of if you're becoming a mere form of government and you're still in a city form of government and you're having to change ordinances you're still kind of in does the the mere form of government that takes precedence even though we have all of these ordinances that we would have to change well I think that's another great question and again without taking a deep dive I have looked at the language from Colorado Springs in that regard the transitional language and that was obviously worked out with great detail you know provided what was going to happen when uh the upon the adoption of ordinances to implement such and such a section we will transition into this these sorts of things will come into play so as I recall uh the the charter of the transitional sections in the charter contemplated or you know corresponding changes in the code to flesh out what the people were directing and there was some time provided for this to all occur you know so we weren't falling all over ourselves or the city wasn't excuse me thank you so much councilmember Marcano all right thank you ma'am and uh thank you Mr Wilson for the presentation so councilmember Lawson actually asked about half of the question that I wanted to ask so what does the time period look like for that transition for those areas you see where it'd be you can imagine if this if you weren't collaborating what you might be presented with by the voters without any of this transitional stuff figured out so um that's that's an area where a lot of work has to be done up front I think okay okay so if the proponents did not um contemplate all of that and lay it all out within the ordinance to change the charter then it would be uncertain how you would proceed at that point well I I actually asked the folks from Colorado Springs about this I said with my experience down at the Capitol especially working on Election legislation which is has some similarities being very detailed it often took several years to get it all squared away you adopt the first bill and then you'd fix it the next year then you'd figure out what was screwed up because you went through an election cycle and you'd fix it some more well with a charter that's much more difficult to do and I asked them in the springs and believe it or not they did not have three or four successive elections after the strong mayor form was adopted where they were tinkering with their Charter they got it done pretty much in one Fell Swoop and spent the succeeding years you know modifying the code but the charter work and I could be wrong you know this is from memory but my impression was that most of the work on the charter was done ahead of thank goodness ahead of the initial consideration by the voters excellent council member Mercado yes thank you so follow-up to that um I'm curious about what the changes to code look like some obvious examples might be revising areas that delegate City management you know certain responsibilities to the mayor's office or appointees but what do some of the other changes that maybe we might not be thinking of well well there were as I said even in the charter there are substantial changes to the role of counsel and the role of the mayor and of course the mayor uh is assuming a much more uh is assuming the dominant role in management at most staff an appointment of those staff and an entire legal infrastructure has to be provided in the code and the code various code sections involving the administration of various Departments of the city have to be conformed to working out of the executive branch so a million little details I remember in the springs I believe they had a classified Personnel system and they I believe had to move that thing over underneath the mayor and that was no easy task that took that took some serious Drafting and figuring so I didn't I didn't examine it I apologize I didn't examine it in Great depth but I I flipped through it and respected how much work evidently went into this thing it was massive yeah yeah yeah and after it was adopted the city produced a um a matrix showing you know implementations necessary steps driven by various aspects of the charter so this is something that would follow that sort of direction from your voters that's where it comes right yes um feel free to dial up okay I'm sure you're done thank you so I'm also curious I guess what kind of a budgetary impact did this have in the springs because this is a whole lot of work that now needs to be done to facilitate that transition and I guess how do they manage that transition plus ongoing City activities it's not like everything in the city Administration just paused while this was all figured out I don't know the answer to that okay I mean it's a great question I just don't know the answer one of the things one of my themes and my remarks though was receive wisdom from Colorado Springs they got a great staff their City attorney went at a uh when Adam Massey is fantastic really knows a lot about this has the whole history in here and uh is it she she and her staff I think would be able to assist in helping the city not reinvent the wheel at taxpayers fans right okay thank you all right that's it okay thank you so much um I do want to see if we have any questions from members of the public I think the way we're going to handle comment here is we'll have this presentation and the presentation from Ms Rogers and then we'll take General commentary but if folks have questions um about the process for transitioning to strong mayor if you're in the audience feel free to raise your hand and come down to the podium if you're online feel free to raise your virtual hand so do we have anyone present in the chambers that would like to ask any questions okay seeing none do we have any folks online uh we do not but uh just to let you know council members that Clark Rodriguez is online as well if in case you have any questions of the clerk okay um so I did have the one question um clerk Rodriguez I don't know if you want to comment I think we got the answer about what's required in terms of the times that need to be followed but do you have any sense of whether there would be any conflict with the deadlines that we've already set for referring items to the ballot from the council process don't know there are no conflicts I'm sorry echoing up on your side or referring the items I did leave one or two Council meetings in between the process just in case something came up and there was an amendment I wanted you guys have plenty of time to make sure that passed so um you should not have any conflicts on your side the schedule is a little bit different what council is refer to measure versus when a citizen is initiating a charter Amendment okay excellent thank you so much for clarifying that and um yeah I think that concludes our questions for Mr Wilson so we'll go ahead and pass it off to Ms Rogers and then we'll have folks give comment at the end of her presentation all right feel free to go ahead thank you chair and council members uh for the record my name is Liz Rogers intergovernmental relations manager for the city of Aurora so in this presentation I really wanted to detail for you guys three examples of strong mayor forms of government you will have a more thorough detail report in the backup which is a written summary but this presentation is to serve as an overview and then answer any questions that you may have so the three examples of cities we'll be talking about today is Minneapolis Minnesota Tulsa Oklahoma and Honolulu Hawaii all of these cities have similar populations insights to Aurora and all have strong Merit form of government whether that was adopted or has been implemented previously so the first one we are going to talk about is Minneapolis they did recently adopt the astronomy reform of government in November of 2021 it was approved with 52 percent of the vote and went into effect within 30 days the one very interesting thing about this is since the ballot measure has been implemented the mayor actually formed a working group within the city to kind of have guidance and implementation for how to kind of confer the city with this ballot measure so the new structure of the government is as shown on the screen here so the city's government structure features an executive mayor whom the city's General executive and administrative Authority resides and then the city council is the city's legislative and primary policy making body so also to note the board of estimate and Taxation and then Parks and Recreation board are separately elected and they have policy making Authority but only narrowly defined in their areas so this is unique to Minneapolis so in the new structure it features as I mentioned an executive mayor who is the city's General executive and administrative Authority um the um there has three powers which are considered essentially fundamental to the strong bear system so approve or veto legislation formulate and manage the city's budget and finances as well as the power to appoint and direct administrative offices officers and the heads of City departments so in that the city council is vested with these City's General legislative policy making and oversight functions and essentially removed from the day-to-day operations of the city's Administration so in addition to that a fun fact about what they had done is created kind of a Prohibition from any action that the council would take that would usurp innovate or interfere with the mayor's direction or supervision of the administration city council operates through a seven step process that they utilize to kind of have laws and ordinance pass through they utilize a city committee structure and each committee is tasked with reviewing different legislations per the committee details so acts are if finalized sent to the mayor and the mayor has five days to veto or approve if it is vetoed it can go back to city council for a differential vote to override that veto um and then so that concludes Minneapolis the next city I want to talk to you all about is Tulsa they have also adopted a strong mayor system by valet in 1989. it was approved with 70 of the vote unfortunately I could not dig up any archive language on the ballot measure in particular that they had used so I do apologize for that um the city government structure overview is very similar with the mayor acting as Chief administrator and managing Tulsa's everyday operations the duty of that position would consist of maintaining all administrative Apartments execute executing Municipal laws submitting the budget to the city council and appointing citizens to Authority Sports and commissions the city Auditor in this role is actually an independent position that periodically reviews the operations resources and financial activities of Tulsa so the auditor's job essentially is to ensure resources are effectively and efficiently utilized so a little bit different from minneapolis's structure where they have the four different ones this one has kind of three and then the boards and commissions so the city council in Tulsa operates as the legislative body of the city government and adopts Municipal ordinances and resolutions so one of the things that they know in Tulsa is that as a city council it's crucial for them to listen to their concerns and suggestions of their residences so again how this city council operates resolutions and ordinances must go through two readings before being adopted unless a waiver of this policy is implemented by the city council and ordinance must appear on two separate Council meetings within 90 days of being adopted so as noted in Minneapolis the mayor can veto ordinances and resolutions however the Tulsa mayor would have 15 days to do so instead of five so on to the last city which is Honolulu they have always seemed to have been a strong mere form of government it is worthy to note that in 1907 the governments of the city and the county did merge so kind of similar to Denver and then the city council serves again as the primary legislative body and the mayor as the executive so uh again in the structure the city council is the law-making body of the City and County of Honolulu and determines policy and programs for the city the council consists of nine members elected four-year terms and then each member represents the distinct districts that they're in one thing interesting to note here is that the districts for Honolulu are reappropriated every 10 years so they are redrawn then the mayor again serves as the chief executive officer and as that the administration consists of the mayor managing director Corporation Council and the cities numerous other agencies uh how the camisole operates is that for a bill to come a lot in Honolulu it must be approved by the city council at three separate meetings or readings and then after the bill passes its third and final reading the bill is presented to the mayor for a signature where it can be vetoed however in this case the mayor has 10 business days to veto legislation so that kind of concludes the overview of the cities and presentations that I wanted to share with you all today and I will now take questions okay thank you so much for your presentation um my question is you talked about the role in terms of kind of appointing um managing the administration the way our current city management would do and the question I had at committee and that I have now is is there any information about kind of the stability of Staffing in that type of government versus a council manager form of government like we have folks in director and above positions in the city of Aurora who have served with the city for 20 25 and 30 years does that kind of thing happen in a government where the person making those appointments is elected and likely not in their position also do they have term limits um in these governments for their mayoral positions yes so um I believe every to answer that question specifically um in the backup document it does detail what the term limits are for mayor and City councils for each City I just didn't include it in this presentation today but it is in the back up there as far as the question on stability of Staffing I am unsure of that I I'm I haven't seen anything in particular that references it but that's definitely something that we can look into okay great thank you other members of the committee council member Marcano thank you councilmember Combs and thank you less for your presentation so um I did find it interesting that in the example cities you listed party affiliation actually for these folks and I'm curious in your research did you find that strong mayor cities tend to have a partisan makeup no I just wanted to ensure that you had examples of different party lines and different affiliations and different areas of the country to give a diverse representation of examples all right I appreciate that thank you uh council member Lawson thank you Liz for your presentation so I wasn't able to look up these other two cities I see that Honolulu is a city and county is Minneapolis and Tulsa are they city and county no they're just cities they're just just cities okay and then my question is um in regards to people when you have the mayor and I think council member Coombs kind of probably already asked this question but I want to kind of put in a different for a framework if the if you have appointed people from the like in Denver so what does that did in any of these cities what has happened to some of the other staff possibly because if you have an appointed person like it's in public safety or Rec Park and Rex and they're all by the mayor's appointees I guess some of the concerns I know that some staff have brought up here is what's going to happen to my job and I think that's a big concern do they I mean especially if they're in a more director position or a higher position because you have the appointed person and then you might have a director but if that person who the mayor appoints wants somebody else which I've seen and I've seen it in Denver then what happens I mean does do these individuals have some legality or they just fired so that is a great question um I'm gonna go back a little bit to Tulsa's example of their structure so in this and hopefully this kind of will in a roundabout way help give some more clarity um so the city cancel can confirm the citizens or can have the power to confirm appointments that the mayor makes in terms of individuals keeping their jobs and the similar questions of Staffing I again do not have a good answer for you and I would need to do additional research and look into that further because I would just like to maybe see about the legality of people who right now we have a manager form of government and we have people that are underneath that are already established and the question is are there jobs what protections do they have and I think that that's going to be really important if this goes through because we have current Staffing and what's going to happen to those individuals jobs I don't know all of the city's HR policies and like at the state you're somewhat protected on some ways but I don't know if the in this part in this form of government if that would be the same for employees that are within the city right now okay yeah similarly I would have a question of would we be running afoul of any kind of HR issues if folks were to be terminated as a result of a mayoral appointment of someone in place of the current directors I also do Wonder for example we have Deputy city managers are there equivalent positions within the strong mayor form of government and what would those positions be so there are forms of those positions in these types of governments however a lot of those positions would depend on restructuring um so going back to look at how Minneapolis did it they ended up forming the work group and then restructured their entire form of government under that specific work group to give additional context to you all about that process and how that went they did engage in a multitude of policy making where they came before city council they had study sessions markup amendments and public hearings to kind of figure out the structure and according to Minneapolis when the ballot was passed in November of 2021 it seems like they actually established their new government structure in October of 2022 so this was not an immediate 30-day process for them I will say what worked for Minneapolis I don't know if that's going to work for our city every city is different and every structure different so that would need to be something that would need to be determined within the city excellent thank you councilmember markana yeah I think just to add on to some of the comments that have already been made I'd really be curious to know what staff turnover looks like in Strong mirror forms a government versus Council manager forms the government um maybe frequency of any labor disputes um you know service um disruptions things of that nature because one of my biggest concerns with this form of government is the potential for nepotism and favoritism when you have one person having that much power so I'd like to kind of examine what that looks like especially how that would impact our residents and the services that depend on every day thank you councilmember Marcano councilmember Lawson do you have any further comments okay thank you um so with that do we have any questions of Ms Rogers from folks that are here in Chambers okay seeing none and do we have any from folks that are online any hands raised not online okay great um do we have any comments then you you don't have to sit up there while people do comments but you thank you um do we have any comments that folks would like to make with respect to um changing the city's form of government from a council manager form of government to a strong mayor form um seeing none in the chambers do we have any hands raised online okay thank you with that we will conclude that portion of the agenda and we will move on to our commentary regarding the other ordinances last time I read the full language of each ordinance I'm not going to do that because it can be a little lengthy so I'm just going to State the title and then introduce the member who was sponsoring that item to give their overview of the item um so first we have update Charter language to be gender neutral I am bringing forward this item for consideration it covers a few sections of our city Charter for the most part the city Charter actually does use gender neutral language but there are a few sections one section or a few sections on the City attorney that specifically refer to the City attorney as he or him and a few that refer to the city manager as he or him and so I think that it's obviously important to ensure that we're not specifying a gender for the folks that are in those roles a person of any gender may serve as a city manager or a City attorney and then for the other sections they say he or she currently and so we would change those sections to Simply say say they in keeping with gender neutral and gender inclusive language and the purpose for that is just that we're not specifying any gender whatsoever where gender is not relevant to um either a person's role in our city government or their role as a citizen in taking any action in that capacity and so that's the purpose and justification is just to be inclusive of all people regardless of gender in the way that we that are governing documents are written so with that introduction given are there any members of the public signed up to speak in person I'll go ahead and let Ms Gonzalez read the names of folks that have signed up to speak on this item so when your name is called please come down to the podium and you'll have three minutes to give comment and you may ask direct questions of the committee and we will respond we have Arnie Schultz followed by Matt I do not see Mr Schultz in the chambers and so Mr Lynn if you'd like to come up uh good evening members I'll keep my remarks on this item brief I'm going to be longer winded later on in this meeting but I just wanted to say that I support these changes to modernize our city Charter language and to ensure it's inclusive for everyone I appreciate councilwoman comes for bringing it forward thank you thank you very much Ms Gonzalez do you have any further speakers on this item okay Mr Bryant do we have any further speakers on this item online we have no hands raised online okay thank you so much members of the committee any comments before we move on okay great thank you so we will move on to the next item which is ballot question for even numbered years council member Marcano all right thank you councilmember Combs so this proposal um is as the title States would move our elections to even years beginning in 2026. I'm not mistaken and then again in 2028 so what that would do is it would ensure it would require those who are elected this November uh to run again in 26 so you'd have a three-year term so no one's getting a longer term out of the deal and then those who would run in 2025 to run again in 2028. so the same thing applies there they get a three-year term and then from then on we'd go back to four-year terms with elections every two years the rationale for this is pretty straightforward it's a voter engagement and turnout boost for our city for those of y'all who might not know our participation in Municipal elections is very very poor we average around 30 percent turnout whereas for presidential and other years on even years we we have turnout that ranges between 60 to 80 percent so that's a substantial portion of our population for who one reason or another does not have their voice heard and frankly from my perspective and I might be a little biased the most important level of government because we touch you know our residents lives on a daily basis so there are other cities in Colorado including Castle Rock Parker and most recently Boulder that now have their elections on even years and what I can tell you from Castle Rock and Parker is that their participation for municipal races increases by orders of magnitude they used to have lower turnout now it is up in I think the Delta is about two percent between what they vote at the top of the ticket and how they vote for their local races one of my big concerns when I brought this forward was that we would see a drop-off in participation as the ballot went on but that has not been the case so I'm you know very excited about that because I think it's important that all of our residents have their voices heard from president all the way down to their council members so um yeah that's a short and sweet version of The Proposal and I'm happy to take any questions or comments all right do we have any speakers signed up to speak in Chambers we have Arnie Schultz followed by Matt Lin all right and once again I do not see Mr Schultz so we'll go ahead and let Mr Lynn come up uh thank you members of the committee so the national civic league which is a nonpartisan non-profit organization focused on Civic engagement reports the following quote changing the timing of local elections to even years align with major election Cycles is the strategy with the greatest proven impact on voting in local races the group identifies a number of additional strategies to bolster voter participation in local elections including the removal of various barriers that have been shown to have disenfranchising effects on citizens but the move to even your elections tops that list this is borne out in data from cities who've already made the switch and it's well documented in peer-reviewed research also documented is the fact that these off-year elections tend to be disproportionately decided by white wealthy homeowners groups like renters people of color are far less likely to vote in our off-year elections I think this is an especially relevant point for Aurora one of Colorado's most diverse cities so while presidential elections and elections held to choose our D.C delegation are certainly important we know that some of the most impactful political decisions those that have the most visible tangible impact on our lives they happen right here in this room as a citizen of Aurora it's my hope that every member of this Council regardless of where they might fall on the political Spectrum which share the goal of making this body as representative of the population as it possibly can be some voters or even members of this Council may bring up concerns about lumping our local elections in with national elections and that that might decrease the focus on local issues or candidates as a councilman Marcano alluded to that has not been the case in peer cities we also live in the great state of Colorado where we can spend time with our ballot at home and take the time needed to research candidates and local matters in addition to national election matters Others May raise issue with the cost of implementing this change I believe we heard from the city clerk in a public hearing last month that this shift could represent an investment on the order of up to two to three hundred thousand dollars I did have a question as to whether that cost reflected an annual recurring cost or if that was at one time um investment I don't know if the clerk would be willing to speak to that um sure Ms Rodriguez can you comment on the frequency of that cost change for elections yes it is not just a one-time cost so if we coordinate for even election years that would cost us significantly more money because the Arapahoe County has to have more voter service polling centers so it would be that approximately the same as what I laid out previously 300 000 for even numbered years 78 000 for odd numbered years and uh clerk Rodriguez if I can ask a follow-up so we recently approved a a contract with Arapahoe County for election services and we have one voter service polling Center for our upcoming Municipal race is that correct that is not technically correct they are yes they will use one city-owned facility but they will use different facilities with different jurisdictions all right thank you and then how many City facilities um and total of the spcs would be available during an even year and so for an even year for the city-owned facilities I believe there's approximately seven that they're using for um city-owned facilities that we are in agreement with with them but there's there's about 32 total bspc locations for an even numbered year and seven for an odd numbered year thank you and the reason I asked that was just for context as to what that cost is actually paying for and I have to wonder if part of the reason we have such poor participation in our odd years is because we don't have the facilities that we do during even years yeah thank you I appreciate that Clarity yeah please proceed I would just argue that that's a more than worthwhile public investment even given the recurring cost it's a worthy use of taxpayer funds given the ROI we'll see in terms of increased ownership I mean it's dramatic when you look at the change when it's made as a point of reference the city of Aurora currently spends uh conservatively more than six times this amount every year to displace it's unhoused from quarter to corner so I think this is a worthwhile use of our funds thank you for this opportunity I appreciate it thank you thank you so much do we have additional speakers in person we do give me just a moment we have John Hutchinson John Hutchinson please go ahead and come down to the podium just just real quick I approve I uh came in support of of this part I wanted to that there will be more voter turnout by having it on even years and I think that's worth it all right for coming to speak this evening do we have any additional in-person speakers anybody in person who was not signed up that wishes to give comment okay see none do we have any online speakers no online questions okay thank you and I did have one follow-up regarding the cost increase for clerk Rodriguez um and maybe you know or don't so I know you've said before that the cost increase is based on our share of the increased number of Voters that need to be served if other municipalities also moved their elections to even years would that cost be divided up across those other cities yes so it would be the weighted population average which is calculated by taking the total jurisdiction active registered voters and you divide that by the sum of active registered voters for all of the coordinating entities so that's the way to population average and at the end of the election they take the total election expense and multiply it by that number a weighted population average to get what was totally total due from each jurisdiction okay great thank you so much for that clarification um do we have further questions or comments from other members councilmember Lawson I just have a question for city clerk Rodriguez so on that point about the population are you looking is it done every year or during when the census is is conducted so they are taking the active registered voters so it would um not deal with the census number it would um deal with the active registered voters for each jurisdiction I was just wondering because when you said population so I just wanted to make sure that how that correlated with what you just stated so thank you thank you councilmember Lawson council member Marcano thank you clerk Rodriguez I have a follow-up um so what you say the weighted population averages based off of the active registered voters so are they looking at folks who are generally flagged as active in the Secretary of State's voter database or are they looking at what effectively would be a measure of our turnout for even years versus odd years no they are taking that number from the Secretary of State's system okay thank you for active registered voters yeah okay great thank you so much for your questions um so now we will move on to the ballot question regarding partisan elections council member Mercado all right thank you councilmember Combs so this item as the name implies is to make our races I would add transparently partisan because from my time on Council and observing Council for the last nearly decade it is a partisan institution it just is not broadcast as much on the ballot so what this would do is simple basically if you are a member of a major party as recognized by the Secretary of State's office that affiliation would appear on the ballot and this would have the effect of number one voter transparency which I think is very important and number two would also have a more modest but still significant voter engagement boost as data shows that the more information we're able to provide to our residents or to the electorate the more folks are actually willing to turn into ballot because they feel like they have enough information to make a decision and and with that I am happy to take any questions or comments okay do we have folks signed up to speak in person we have Arnie Schultz followed by Matt okay so we'll go ahead and move on to Mr Lynn because Mr Schultz is not here I'm also in support of this Charter change I just want to say that I agree that voters deserve more transparency than they're current currently given and to those who believe that city government should stay out of partisan politics [Music] I don't necessarily disagree but I'm afraid that's a bridge that was crossed many years ago if we were ever on the other side of the river if we can extend that metaphor but Aurora citizens deserve honesty about the affiliation of the candidates vying for their vote if such an affiliation exists I know it may not in all cases especially if those purported nonpartisan candidates are going to receive funding from decidedly partisan groups who in recent years support a lot of dark money into our elections going back to something that was discussed at the prior Charter com public comment session and they may this may have already occurred but I do feel it may be helpful to bifurcate this question from the issue of vacancy committees it sounds like that's already good so that's I don't have a strong stance on either vacancy committee approach but I just felt that that would be helpful to separate that question on the ballot for the sake of clarity um and I'm in support of this change so thank you thank you so much for coming to speak do we have additional speakers signed up to speak in person we have Susan tabachek followed by John Hutchinson okay um Miss tabachek she asked me she said good news awesome thank you so much for taking the time to be here yes thank you and thank you council members I have a concern with this because I believe in this last election we all knew where everybody was coming from we all knew who was Republican and we all knew who was Democrat unless I did so uh and that's concerning because then we have that other group of individuals who really don't want to let people know who their party is you know and so I feel it just stay the way it is I I disagree with making a partisan I disagree with making vacancies partisan because then we're going to be overloaded with Republican or we're going to be overloaded with Democrats I mean I I'm not saying either one okay I I just feel you're uh it's becoming too too much although am I wrong about how who we knew was a Democrat and Republican this last election um so I buy the information that went out to the public um I thought on public I thought on on the what do you call advertisements or whatever that came out of who was Democrat whose Republican y'all do really good job I'm just saying that uh I I really did my big part the vacancy part say one of you should leave back to me is is very concerning that one group is going to be able to uh to overload um so I will say that we did hear anecdotally from residents that they were being told by individuals that they were a different party than what they actually were on the doors that's from what a few people said there's no kind of you know pattern that's been demonstrated on that but that is something that folks did say occurred as far as the vacancies that is now a separate item with a different process which council member marcana will talk about okay in the next but when it comes to the elections I I agree let's be honest and upfront because y'all have been that way for years so you know we all know who's who I mean the majority of people who vote those who's who so thank you yeah thank you on the other one okay awesome we look forward to hearing from you more and we appreciate your participation Mr Hutchinson I'm in support of this change I think it gives more information to voters I I think that some people would be tending not to vote if they don't they're not sure and some people use the you know there's different colors for the parties and someone use the ink from the different part color for each I just think that gives um that that allowing it to be partisanship the only thing that um one thing is like like as a Precinct and at that at the party level you're not allowed to say we endorse this candidate and would that be changed that is something that is within the charter or that would be in the perfe purview of this I think that's more electioneering Provisions which it's not clear whether the campaign Finance law kind of what the interaction is of the campaign Finance laws with parties in that sense um I think that that's kind of up to the party's own rules how they're managing campaign Finance laws um within cities so that's a thing within the party is not something that the city government would decide okay thank you you're welcome thank you any other commenters in person anybody who did not sign up sir okay well please state your name for the record when you come up good evening my name is Kelly Schilling I am opposed to this um I'll tell you why I've been born witness to this council's activities for now more than 40 years um I guess a long time ago I crossed the line into old man um and I'm disappointed to report that this Council has operated more partisanly particularly in the last three years than I've ever witnessed in my time here with her where I presented to this Council I've attended various meetings I've served on boards and commissions and um it's it's disappointing that Council meetings have become acrimonious calling members out in the public forum I enjoy the fact that whether it's a great farce or not that people are supposed to be nonpartisan to serve this city and I would appreciate the fact that if that they could continue to do so and that we could enjoy the benefits of people setting their politics aside and represent the interests of the citizens of Aurora thank you thank you so much for taking the time to be here and I think we do have a speaker slip for you it sounds like so thank you so much for your comments any other speakers in person that did not sign up okay seeing none do we have any speakers online for this item no speakers online Okay um any questions or comments from members of the committee councilmember Lawson I just have a comment so I'm not for this at all I understand I think the partisanship has definitely I've been on the council for eight years and I've definitely seen a significant difference in how this Council operates I hope if if this does pass and the voters do decide I hope that you look at the people who are actually that you're actually even whether they're a d-r-i whatever it's important to look at the people that you're voting for and what they're and if they definitely have a record look at that but just voting for someone because they're a d or an r or an I I mean get really no I I really hope that people if this passes through the voters to want this to have these elections partisan that you really look at the people because people may not be what they appear so that's just all I want to make a comment on that okay council member marcotta okay and I have no comments either so we will go ahead and move forward to the ballot question regarding make vacancy committees councilmember markato all right thank you council member Combs uh so this is my final item on here um and it has been bifurcated as one of our speakers um pointed out so the original proposal was there's two different sections um one is assuming partisan positions uh through which we would utilize for a vacancy the existing vacancy committee process that again far parties through the Secretary of State's office utilize to fill a vacancies so what those look what that looks like are Precinct organizers would get together and basically fill that vacancy after however many candidates apply to basically fill that vacancy so it would be not up to council to fill the vacancy but up to the precinct organizers the second proposal that I have in here and quite frankly it's the one I'm leaning the most toward after having getting feedback from my colleagues and also from members of the public is the utilization of our nominating petitions as our vacancy committees which just for the record is the same process that unaffiliated candidates um in the you know if they should have office at the state legislature that's the process that they utilize for their vacancies so that would be regardless of whatever party a member of council is whether it's partisan or not the 50 plus people who sign a ward council member's petition or the 100 plus people who sign a at large council member or mayor's petition they would make up the vacancy committee for that seat and the idea is that the values should stay with the voters so the voters should get to decide who serves on Council and not council members as we saw this was used for pretty naked leap partisan reasons one council member Johnston vacated her seat in the past so and frankly we should not be in a position from my perspective to ever decide who gets to sit up here with us that power should rest with you the people of our city all right do we have any uh members of the public signed up to speak in person we have Arnie Schultz followed by Matt Lin okay we'll go ahead and move on to Matlin I had sort of wrote in my remarks on this matter in the in the last one so I was just going to say that I don't have a preference on which of the two approaches are taken of the of the two but I do feel like there it's it is a good idea for the reasons uh councilman Marcano explained that we want to uh avoid the scenario that we saw Kurt a few years ago thank you thank you okay do we have additional speakers signed up to speak in person um Susan tabachek okay Miss tabachek please come down [Music] well we need a ramp and we are working on that now there will be improvements to the chambers hopefully soon and good evening again thank you for letting me speak of course um I'm against it and the reason I'm against it as I stated is that once a party person has gone I believe a party person should be come back on and the reason is you're gonna overload I know in certain Wards here in Aurora I've lived here a long time uh it's going to go all one way I can guarantee you it's going to go all one way and that's not right so it'll go I mean we all know I'm just going to say that loud we all know that Aurora is a Democrat City the majority of the people that live here are Democrat and and it's very hard for a republican kid to get elected I was surprised to see as many Republicans that did get elected this type seriously so if that were to happen I know how the different parties work I've been around both parties and I know what they'll do to get that other party to overload this this Council and I'm not saying that you're not bipartic that you're not non-partisan because I understand when you have a conflict you have a conflict and that's okay because if everybody agreed that would be terrible you know I really think everybody should have a voice whether you agree with each other or not and so you give angry so what you know but the thing with is you come out with some very good I won't say the word you you come out with good decisions as a group if you really put your heads together I think you've all done a good job even though you've nitpicking each other and all this stuff that's you know we're in that day of age but I disagree with you totally I think it's just stay if a if a republican leads a republican comes back in if a Democrat leaves a Democrat comes back in I do not know if that was what you were saying is that what you were saying so let me clarify because there's two proposals in this right um so one of them assumes partisan positions like you're describing but what I've heard from my colleagues and some members of the public is they don't want to utilize that you know not everyone's a fan of having part of the party affiliation on the ballot right and I tend to disagree with wanting to hide that from voters but it is what it is um the partisan position it would function the way you describe um that's how those vacancy committees are set up so statutorily you have Democratic Precinct organizers so if I got hit by a bus tomorrow they would put a democrat in my seat because I'm a Democrat um or if you had left that other party called and I can't think or if something happened to Mayor Kaufman a republican vacancies and not just the Republican the third party it could be sorry yeah Lawson is unaffiliated yeah well not quite because there's not unaffiliated on the party right and this is where we get kind of that's true that's true we're confused between nonpartisan versus unaffiliated right yeah it just means you don't see our party unaffiliated means you don't belong to a party but I could see all Democrats up here at my point of view right now maybe except for one or two yeah and that's because I know I know Aurora I've worked for both parties I can tell you and that's just how I feel so no I'm against it I think you guys are great I'm just against it okay well to clarify though because what you were saying was actually supportive of the partisan vacancy process partisan how do you feel about the nominating petition then because I can I'll speak to my experience when I got my signatures it was from people who I know are Democrats who I know personally in my ward so I was I you know I have a big Community right I have a big base of support so that's who I went to to get my signatures so with this other process they'd be the ones that would fill my position anyway um but if it were a republican I can guarantee it would be a Democrat that would fill it well no because so well let me it depends on how they got their signatures right because there's someone standing outside of a grocery store and just asking whoever to sign their signature I just really know how it works it depends on how they did it right because you're right if it's random people it could very well be that but what I can tell you is that my colleagues are also sophisticated folks they belong to a party they have their organizational structure supporting them as well so I sincerely doubt that you'd have a Democrat replace mayor Kaufman for example if there were vacancy I and the majority of my people who backed me were Democrats okay and not a lot of Republicans okay I'm not going to tell you what party I am but I'm just going to tell you I think if a Democrat lose a Democrat could come if a republican comes now who who are you saying fixes that Republican the party yeah that under the Republican Party would pick the Republican the precinct organizers for the Republican party right and then Democratic party would pick for the Democrats right I don't know what's going to happen to you so it would be the vacant it would be the petition signatures no matter what for an unaffiliated person so the way that council member maracano laid out the second proposal was to kind of cut out the parties themselves and just use the vacant or use the petition signatures for everybody so if you're an unaffiliated it's petition signatures if you're a republican it's the people who signed your petition if you're a Democrat it's the people who signed your petition and I think the idea is people probably are getting people of their own party to sign their petition if right they're a member of a party and if you're Affiliated you're probably getting both and some unaffiliated it's probably a more wide sample who works the Republican Party really okay I'm a Republican and the Republican party does not work that much in poor Aurora you know I'm in Aurora we're called Poirot I really live in porora personally so once those petitions go out if any of them leave on that with the vacancy this area and we're going to go according to your way it's going to go Democrat I my personal opinion but I just wanted to give you what I think the Republican comes for a republican a Democrat comes for a Democrat and that's how this it might my eye and I appreciate like I said though I appreciate y'all oh thank you so much I think it's important to clarify those questions and to have the discussion and we appreciate hearing your voice yes for the record I agree with you so any other folks signed up to speak and present that didn't already speak all right come on up and you did sign a form right yes okay I guess I'm generally opposed to that reform measure it smacks to me like we're driving Party politics down to the lowest levels of government that we have and I find that unfortunate I like the idea naive perhaps I am that if an unaffiliated person yeah um I'm an affiliate um but it would get hit by a bus that there's a chance that that could be filled by another unaffiliated person um Party politics um in my mind's eye has has the Polar Opposites have started to dominate every aspect of politics and pushing that down to the lowest level means that there's just more for us to swallow and it for me that all tastes better I appreciate that can I ask you a clarifying question so that was about having the partisan vacancy committee even the um the like I call it petition Gathering but the signature basis you're going to go to your your base you would try to find a base um Republicans and it just it's just Party politics because it's just easier if everybody had to stand out at king supers and just grab people as they come by I could get right with that but it's just Party politics is going to drive and grow and it we don't need more divides now granted maybe there are some some excesses and maybe there's it was unfortunate how the last vacancy was filled I'll grant you that but in the history of my tenure here in observations that has not been the process because there are relatively few people who want to immediately step up and assume that role or perhaps or even qualified to come in and and Be an Effective member of council right from the get-go and the process that we have now vets those people to some large extent at least historically and I don't see a reason to change that okay all right thank you other questions recommendation no I just wanted to make sure because it's a little bit of confusion and this discussion has been great I generally appreciate you're willing to engage with us and and to talk it through yeah absolutely and we appreciate you taking the time to come and join us and share your thoughts um comments and questions from Members councilmember Lawson yeah I just have a comment so it was unfortunate how that vacancy went with um with our former council member but what I have to say is when you're talking about the values in these Wards there's people moving in and out so values could change amongst you know I mean people award may not be the same have the same values or they may not have they may not have liked what the council member did and they may want somebody different so when when we're talking about the values of what that council member represented if I'm unaffiliated and I I have a vacancy there could be someone from a republican Democrat or an unaffiliated I mean I would think that the values of of what that Ward or that person it could be it could be different our city is growing we have different people elections you know different people who are who are part of the city and I mean values are just different awards are different and I think that's only going to continue so I don't really agree with the argument in about the values of the certain council member that represents the city at a ward level or at large level so thank you um council member Marcano thank you and thank you for your comments councilmember Lawson um maybe I should clarify that the importance is that the values of the voters are what you know be represented on so much the values of the person and that's why I feel like the folks who have signed your nominating petition are probably the better Arbiters of that than you know the 10 of us who would be sitting up here making that decision after the fact well I wasn't sorry I wasn't referencing that per se that us making that decision but what I'm saying is that if you go the nominating position positions that we have a lot of those people may be here or may not but I'm just talking about when we were having that discussion yeah that wasn't our real it was really should be with the voters because they are our bosses they are our bosses so but just because someone is a Democrat of award that that award could be changed or different so are we really listening to the voices of those voters in that Ward I'm just saying the changing Dynamics and that has to be in consideration all right and the only thing I'll say is that I do support having some type of vacancy committee for this specific reason that it I don't think that Council should make that decision that's only 10 people yes 10 people who were elected but having a broader range of people to weigh in I think is more appropriate especially having the voters not the elected officials oftentimes there's internal Council politics that inform those decisions of who ends up getting appointed and I don't think that that necessarily serves the voters best um in addition I did want to clarify one thing that came up before which is that the ward council members have to have at least 50 signatures and council member Marcano did say 50 plus in this case but so oftentimes people get two or three times the number of signatures that they need just to make sure that they get onto the ballot because it'd be really unfortunate if you missed the ballot by one signature that was illegible or someone wrote their zip code wrong or something like that so what would end up happening is that we would have more than that 50 for award or 100 for city-wide elections that would be making that decision and I think that's also beneficial for addressing one of the other concerns that came up in the discussion and that was what would happen if a lot of the people who signed your petition had moved out of the ward or out of the city so because we have more than just that 50 minimum that end up signing it would give us still a larger number of people that end up sitting on that vacancy committee so I just wanted to make that informational clarification from our previous discussions are there any other folks that at this point would like to come up and speak who have not spoken that are here in person okay and then we have any folks um prepared to comment online we have none online okay so thank you all for the discussion um and to the folks who came to speak and now we will move on to the ordinance regarding full-time council members um for with councilmember Lawson the real controversial one at the very end I brought this forward um this proposed Charter change merely confirms the reality of serving on our city council in the present date and age so as the city has grown in 62 years since the adoption of the charter the responsibility and obligations that the city council members has basically grown and it's probably only going to get grow more as right now where the current population of 400 000 I would see probably in another 10 years will be probably a little bit higher than that close to maybe even at least Colorado Springs growth I just wanted to before I just kind of wanted to create a landscape you know council members this is a public service job in a lot lot of us know what we're getting into when we serve here as a council member a lot of us have full-time jobs because we have to we can't support ourselves with the with the money that we have here that we get for which is like twenty three thousand dollars right now or 20 000 for Council Members right now and then 22 000 for the mayor Pro tem and then the mayor gets 86 000 right now currently so that is the current money that we get right now in this current day and age um you know council members a lot of people I think and I and a lot of us we go out into the community explain what council members do it's not just sitting up on the dice on Mondays and it's not just our you know our weekly our month or study session meetings I mean we attend regular meetings on top of that we have executive proceeding meetings that we have to attend in addition we have we sit on one policy committee that we chair and we have to sit on two additional policy committees by the pop by our rules and then on top of that we have additional committees external committees that we sit on I know I sit on Seven seven just external so a toots it on a total of ten just all together we have our town hall meetings which you know that several of our board you know for public safety for regional development for RTD many things mental health we sit on amongst those are just kind of the variety of aborts we're not um directly involved in many were directly involved in many mandatory minis sometimes we have emergency meetings that we have to attend I mean and we also have meetings that we have to do with our budget on the weekends um this I mean it's it's a lot and on top of that we have to prepare for our Council meetings we do not have staff we have people and our staff that kind of help us but not do the research and the questions that we have to prepare for these meetings so we can be you know more informed about what's going on and on top of that we have constituency Services which is really important and that means not just reading emails but that means going out to people and actually going out and seeing what's going on in communities um you know we we stand ready at any time for any unscheduled meetings and that has happened on multiple times I've been on Council for eight years councilmember Marcano and councilmember Coons have also been a part of those especially during covet we were on additional meetings every week unscheduled meetings that we had to attend because we had to deal with the covet issue in our city so I share this in the backup if anyone saw the backup there were some options for the compensation and I really would like for the compensation to go over to probably our commit commission but there's two options there one of the options would be for Council to have forty two thousand dollars so that would be the four council members who right now would increase to forty two thousand dollars and then sixty thousand six sixty nine thousand not sixty nine thousand sorry fifty nine thousand for the mere Pro Temp um I think the mere Pro tem one is still a little bit much compared to what the 42 is based on this analysis um but looking at the local looking at what Aurora's I mean wages are that's kind of how I would look for the comparable one for an increase um someone was asking me some constituents asking me well how would you because there is no Moonlighting provision in this in this ordinance so people who need to work who want to keep their jobs they can do that there is nothing saying that it's mandated that you have to quit your job to be a full-time council person that would be something that you would have to decide on your own based on your own Financial or whatever you have to do for your families um but there wouldn't be looking when I talked to our city attorney's office there's nothing in the charter that I can put in there that would be that a council member would have to attend a certain amount of meetings or they would have to be obligated to do a certain amount of thresholds because basically the citizens of Aurora are our bosses and through recall and other things that's how you would actually be able to challenge us to see if we're meeting these thresholds to be a full-time council person so within this Charter Amendment there's not anything that I could say that says oh a person's not doing the work versus a person's doing their job that is something I was asked by constituents and looking at the legal provision basically I was told the residents Aurora evaluate us at election evaluates at each election the performance of their elected officials elections are at council members performance evaluation delivered from their bosses the residents of Aurora so um I would like to hear any comments I know that this one has been kind of controversial some people think that um well some of my colleagues think well you know we we are public servants and we should be part-time and it shouldn't be any changes but as we're growing as a city and as we're seeing the complexity of the issues that have are continuing to develop and we're continuing to grow it's going to be more time that council members are going to have to if we're going to be true public servants to be able to serve the needs of our residents so that's why I'm bringing this proposal forward I've been working on this for a couple years but decided to bring it forward to see if there's a possibility that it could be on the ballot and for if the voters say no then the voters say no but I think it should be something that should be proposed and let the voters decide if they want us to be a full-time Council so that's my presentation and if there's any questions and comments I would be glad to take those all right thank you councilmember Lawson I would add on the Committees that we also have ad hoc committees um this is an ad hoc committee so it's a fourth committee for those of us serving and I think all of us have been on at least one if not to ad hoc committees for each of the years on our times on Council so I'm just adding to the number of committee meetings that we have that being said do we have members signed up to speak in public or in person we have Ari Schultz followed by Matt Lin okay so Mr Lynn first of all thank you for bringing this forward I know it puts you as council members in sort of an awkward position that the nature of lawmaking states that you must ask for your own raise at least to get the conversation going um I think it is merited to serve a community of this size as you've alluded to and to address the complexity and the sheer number of issues at a city's largest Aurora a council member could easily dedicate full-time hours to this role and I know that many of you already do there are only 50 cities in the country that are larger in terms of Aurora larger than Aurora in terms of population and our council is part-time regarding salary so at the current level of twenty thousand dollars a year assuming a part let's assume a part-time schedule of 25 hours per week knowing full well that your commitment often extends further than that that comes out to 15 an hour that's not great area median income for Arapahoe County is just over forty five thousand per capita that's about 22 an hour so you can see we've already cut a gap there just to put you all in kind of the realm of average as a point of reference the median household income for Arapahoe County is close to 85 000. another factor to consider and I really think that this needs to be highlighted to voters when we put this forth is that when we begin to hear concerns about the cost or oh this should be a matter of public service and you shouldn't be I don't know have in this for the money or I don't think any of you are in this for the money but when people start to bring those concerns forth it it is important that we reiterate that when you do not pay a living wage for public service you limit the pool of available talent for elected officials um you should not need to be independently wealthy to sit in this room or rely on a spouse's income or Moonlight a second full-time job but currently you do and this like off your elections promotes a system of municipal government that does not represent its people it promotes inequity and I really think that needs to be highlighted far and above the concerns that we're going to hear about cost because those are going to I can already hear some of our members bringing those concerns so with the above in mind I think a salary increase would certainly be merited alongside the consideration of move councils council members to full-time status it seems like 100 Ami seems like a more than reasonable place to start 42 000 sound low to me I'm a renter I pay market rate rent in Aurora if I had to if my job paid me 42 000 I don't think I could live here um I don't yeah I don't know where I would live if I had to subsist on that salary so I would consider something higher but it's a good place to start I support this change so thank you thank you um do we have other members of the public signed up to speak in person we have Muhammad Faisal followed by Susan tabachek okay what is online okay um please go ahead Muhammad faster can you hear me yep you're on yes it is very when I heard this the city council job is very it's a part-time job it's really hurt me when I I saw their salary their compensation is very low that's I think so if if we can offer them full-time job and get a pay better pay for our council member mayor who is working what they are it is better for our city because of they can forecast the full time of their job please please uh what you can do you can propose it to the next lesson on to the November then propose it and another thing I had to do uh the uh that you can which I am very uh um choose about that ranking Choice voting if you can implement it I think so we can better better better our candidate so please think about that thank you very much thank you so much for taking the time to comment in person and now or online and now we will have uh Susan tabachek and once again we really need to get that ramp in here but this time I'm for this 100 because you take care of our lives our health you know our safety you made the decisions for that I can I can't believe that it's so low and that's so bad but I guess I should have looked into it but I think 42 thousands I think it should be higher because of the job you're required to do thank goodness we have people on here on on Council that really care about us because you could all be sitting there going oh you know I've been in places and belonged to clubs where the people in charge really didn't care they just wanted money so uh 100 percent it's I can't believe that we won't do this but you are our life my life is good because you are here and for that reason 100 you need to be full-time and it's okay if we have another job other people have other jobs plus their full-time job so 100 percent thank you all right thank you so much for your comments um I did want to say regarding the kind of salary and limiting the pool of talent that had been brought up you know I have had many people that I've spoken with say I would love to serve on Council I'd love to represent the community but I cannot afford to um I can't that's not a salary that I can afford to live off of and I can't do Council plus my other job right some of us have some flexibility where our other job allows us to balance both um but not everybody's job allows that so there are people who would be willing to leave their other very good jobs to serve on Council if it at least paid a living wage so that's just something that I have heard in community so council member Lawson and thank you councilmember Coons for bringing this up and I just wanted to say in the backup there were there's actually two options um the second one the first one that I mentioned the forty two thousand three sixteen that was using composition compensation data from other comparable cities outside of Colorado that have a city and Council manager form of government the next option would be sixty seven thousand eight hundred and eighty nine dollars for a council member and that's hr's job evaluation analysis and recommendation considering current duties responsibility these compensation and classification classification structure and local and out-of-state comparable Market data so you know you know again like councilmember Coombs said you know that would it's 60 that to me would be something that would be where people could actually live serve on serve here and maybe have a choice because that's what it's about choice if you have to do another job you do that but if you don't and again I also think it would bring this is the future so this might not impact us but this will be future and I think that that we have to think about that when we're looking at how our city is growing and just who's going to be representing our Senate a city in the future and to have those diverse opinions and thoughts is really important but sometimes people can't do it you can't get that maybe because people can't afford to do this work here at twenty thousand dollars so thank you councilmember Lawson um oh shoot we had we have um we still have for public invited to be heard Robert Garson followed by Tanya tabachek I apologize I thought we had gotten to the end of our folks and we were very enthusiastic to give comment Bob please go ahead uh Bob geyser as you know I was uh city council member of the city county of Broomfield I was on probably 60 different committees that I went to I also did full-time work as a county commissioner attending the county commissioner meetings my salary was 7 200 a year so I know exactly how much work you put in kind of Commissioners are paid I think ninety thousand dollars a year so I think that the 67 that you have listed here is a little low I I know there's so much that you can contribute there's citizens groups that you would like to attend there's County meetings that you'd like to attend to get more information you know there's a vast numbers of committees and Community associations that you could attend if you had the salary to pay and I I know it's a tremendous amount of work and I thank you all for for the work that you put in because it's it's a lot of work for what you get paid and you really need to think about helping that a little more thank you so much Bob all right Tanya this is different usually I can only talk and don't get questions asked like this [Music] um I'm supported this I know that some people that like I like my job I do but if I had an opportunity to serve my the residents and so forth with what you get paid right now there's Dewey I could do that and with the amount of work that I see you guys do all the time in the pre-study meetings and Council and then I see the different committees you're part of and then also you go to other meetings outside to um like for narf with my mom or Tria or so forth that you're not obligated to but you go to show your support and so forth yeah and I from what you're saying with the amount that like I said twenty thousand mayor gets 86 000. I mean I you guys do almost as much as what he does I mean you're up there and like he was saying more than 67 000 and people might not understand that and until I came and my mom mentioned how much you get paid I didn't know you know a lot a lot of citizens don't know you know they see you up here like okay you know they don't know the whole just in the background and the his the whole dynamic of the city council and I think if they understood and like under the breakdown of it then there wouldn't be a debate about it and you know you're doing a public service but you're also you do a lot for our lives like if we have a water issue if we have you're the mediator you're the in-between person that kind of pushes us through so I'm all for it and like saying with him I think with the amount of work that you do that would be more equivalent it's a lot of work and I know that I'm interested in someday but what what I make now I'm like barely even with the medium the household medium and the with the rent and so forth for a single house there's so I'm in support of it so thank you thank you so much for taking the time to come and speak are there any other folks that would like to come speak in person please come on come on up well lest you forget I'm Kelly Schilling um and to get out of my my negative rut I'm all for this um you and your colleagues here are the executive committee of a billion dollar plus organization and it's time that you will be dedicated to the efforts of the city full-time now if you can balance a job in that to pay more power to you but we need leadership here full-time and your salary needs to be commensurate with your responsibilities so whether that's 46 000 or 86 000 I would challenge you to do that and and more because if you're full-time I would like to see you have time or dedicate resources um to not only yourselves but to a staff you need some help the legislative committees they've all got staff and not knocking the staff here at the city of Aurora they do a terrific job they they carry a big burden and they do a great job of keeping you informed but it's a pool and if you could hire your own people to assist with your efforts now the that probably kicks as hard as it shoots because if you're going to do that then I would challenge you to go forward into and to Liaison with the County Commissioners and with our state representatives to advocate for the city I'm tired of living in the shadows of the other organizations in our in our state and the idea that we have a form of government here that's the equivalent of what they have in Elizabeth Colorado or Montrose Colorado or Julesburg Colorado not knocking any of those cities but we've outgrown that um and I I hope that you really use this as a launching pad to drive us into the into the next 10 years 15 if we don't get to this for another 60 years um please give us the kind of leadership the kind of pay and remuneration responsibilities a long time ago this body was the launching path for political careers and I'd like to see that happen again and if it's going to happen going forward then we need to have this solved so that our Future Leaders can step forward and and uh take us take us with them thank you so much for your questions um no I don't think I have any although I appreciate the thoughtful comparisons um so do we have any other folks in person who are not signed up that want to speak on this item okay do we have any more folks online to speak on this item okay um so I think we kind of launched into our commentary a little bit um ahead of folks coming up but I do thank you all for sharing that information I did want to respond and add we do also one of our committees is fully tasked with advocating for the city in an intergovernmental capacity at the state legislature and with the counties we do also have a representative and an alternate to the Denver Regional Council of governments so that is part of that work that we all do different people at different times depending on their assignments and then also the chair of the federal state and intergovernmental Relations Committee often testifies on behalf of council and other members may also go and testify on behalf of their constituents even if the position that they represent is not the same one that's held by Council so there is quite a bit of effort that folks do make to try to advocate for the city and make sure that we're well represented so that's just an additional one of the many duties that we undertake so additional comments councilmember Marcano yes thank you ma'am so I did have a question for council member Lawson and that is when you were researching the Moonlighting provision I'm curious what does the City and County of Denver do um for their Moonlighting presentation because they get paid like 100 they get 100 yeah I think they get a hundred um I don't know I have to I don't have it in front of me I'm not sure if they're if they're mandated or not I I would have to come back to you on that one okay yeah I'm just curious because I but they probably are not working another job I certainly hope not especially you know you imagine Arlo imagine adding a county load on top of that and then 300 000 more people right um so yeah I was just curious about that um I just wanted to want to say that I do support this this is something that would not benefit any of the folks currently on Council but from my perspective it's a matter of equity ultimately um as was mentioned some folks are privileged enough to have to either to be independently wealthy or comfortably retired or to own a business or several businesses that they can derive more or less passive income from um that's not the case for the vast majority of aurorans um so what we're doing with our existing structure is precluding a vast swath of representation from really having a shot at being able to serve their community and bring frankly a perspective that I think is very valuable and missing from Council so this is something that I hope we can at least send to the voters this November because it's a it's really important I think to expand not just the franchise I know we've talked a lot about turnout and voting and transparency but also allow more people to actually serve in this role without taking on financial hardship for themselves and their families thank you councilmember Marcano um there was something I was listening to that now I didn't want to say one thing oh yes go ahead I just did my taxes and I got 35 we got paid like 35 200 basically for the year that's with our allowances that's that's something that I think we haven't talked about in the past so our Charter salary I think previous councils understood that that was very low and that there was a lot more to this job so they added in a allowance I think it's like a 700 car allowance and then like there's another allowance um and that's what gets you from I think our inflation-adjusted salaries like 20 000 and change right now yeah so that's what gets you to 35 000. so at my perspective I would rather this be a transparent salary no allowances and my suggestion would be to just tie it to the median income for a family of four for the city which I think is right around sixty nine thousand dollars a year and I do want us to maybe take a look at the mayor Pro tem and the mayor salary as well because I'm gonna be honest um mayor Pro tem I from my perspective actually does less work because they don't have committees um there are there are there's a couple of things that they must uh that they get assigned but it's no really no different than the extra committees that you and I um take on um and the mayor's role also is interesting here because they don't have executive Authority um they're a figurehead more or less so I think that bringing all of those positions either to the same or to the same general ballpark would be beneficial yeah so I would add yet the mayor does not serve is not required to serve on any of our policy committees they do they are an ex-officio member of every policy committee but they're not required to attend whereas we are required to attend the Committees that we serve on um so that particular duty is not equivalent and then depending on how outside committees get delegated to members of council the mayor may or may not serve on very many outside committees I think there may be one that specifically requires it to be the mayor and all the rest permit a mayor's designee and the majority of those are filled by council members so in terms of the duties the mayor definitely does not have four times the duties of council members and may not even have equivalent required duties which leaves the mayor in the position of kind of their job aside from chairing our study sessions executive sessions and Council meetings is up to their discretion in a way that council members duties or not so I agree that examining a little bit of pay Equity there would make some sense any further comments councilmember Lawson okay neither do I do we have anything else for members of the public before we conclude this item all right thank you all again so much for your thoughtful commentary and your attendance we do have one more item but we don't have any additional suggestions that have been provided or at least that were sent to us since our last um set of responses from access Aurora um so we will not review any additional items at this time I did want to raise a question however of the other members of the committee which is we have received one additional item that's coming to our May 2nd Charter committee and that's regarding lateral hires of firefighters and I believe we're going to anticipate an item from the police department regarding lateral hires as well as potentially some additional Public Safety related items to bring forward not from us not from the committee but from staff so I do want to ask if folks would be comfortable holding one additional public hearing after our May 2nd meeting to review those items with members of the public yeah I think that'll be important for us to do that to have a hearing and get public perspective on those as well and just be transparent ditto okay yeah I think that those are essential topics related to Public Safety so we do want to get public comment on those so we will confer with staff and find out what's going to be a good time to have that one final public hearing sometime in the month of May and we will publicize that final public hearing once we once we have that date set so thank you both for your support of bringing that forward and we hope that you all will be able to attend that as well I think that you know these are meaningful issues in terms of how we staff our police and fire departments so with that being said thank you all again for your long attention your thoughtful commentary oh council member marcana thank you I did want to address a comment that was made by one of our Colin users about ranked choice of voting that's something that would not actually require a charter Amendment this is something that I have looked into as part of you know some of the I think necessary electoral reforms in terms of transparency encouraging voter participation and things of that nature but that can be done through simple ordinance and I think it would actually speak a lot to some of the concerns that we've heard from members of the public about basically unstriding two-party Rule and all that dysfunction which I argue already exists here but through making you know our races transparently partisan the idea with ranked Choice voting is that you don't you basically eliminate the spoiler effect so you're able to support independent candidates or minor party candidates to break the duopoly without you know effectively as it happens now in the president initial years as we've seen where folks will vote for let's say the libertarian because they don't like the Republican candidate and then the Democrat ends up winning right so that would be the idea and I would be curious to get some of your takes with that context on having partisan races since one is a charter question one is not and how that might impact how you feel about that transition because I feel like you know it's go back to that old saying right the first step in fixing a problem is admitting you have one so I would rather have this information be out there transparent and then give us the tools to address the problem if we feel there is one all right so we will I think maybe well I don't know that we're going to have a ranked Choice voting conversation again because that is a change that can happen by ordinance not Charter so if we're going to have that conversation um we'll have that as part of an ordinance change in the future I do not anticipate that that will come forward before our next election um but yes that has been raised in some of the online comments um so it it is an issue that we're aware of but it's something that is not specifically part of the charter um so with that said again thank you all for your time your attention your thoughtful commentary your engagement and we look forward to continuing to speak with you on the changes to the Charter and hear from you as we move forward in our process we do have more meetings of this committee we have a Citizens ad hoc committee that is also advising Council on Charter changes and so work from them will also come forward and then we will be having discussions at a study session as well as two full Council meetings before any items go to the ballot so there will be other opportunities to comment I believe you can also still comment on engage Aurora if you have any additional comments or thoughts so thank you again have a wonderful meeting and with our evening and with that said this meeting is adjourned foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music]