to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation indivis thank you roll call please council member Cole here council member schweer here council member Wong here council member nordby here mayor mongi here thank you I have a motion to adopt the agenda please so moved so moved Council memb we second second council member Norby all those in favor say I I I ient agenda would you go through please thank you mayor yes first up on the consent agenda item a November 21st 2023 Workshop minutes Item B November 21st 2023 regular meeting minutes item C General claims of $617,500 item D HRA claims of $493 68 item e Target Corporation gift card donation shop with the cop item F 2024 city council meeting calendar item G 2024 annual polling place designation item H authorized application for Metropolitan Council Environmental Services 2024 private property grant program item I 2024 pavement management project Professional Services proposal city project number 24-1 from WS B item J 11th Avenue sidewalk Improvement project city project number 24-2 Professional Services proposal by WSB thank you anybody like to pull any yes I'd like to pull item uh H item I and item j h i and J I can go over anybody else if we take those out we can somebody motion so we can pass the consent agenda please so moved so moved council member sweer second second council member Cole all those in favor say I I I that's usually my sticking point I forget that part so I'm doing all right all right next part is sit [Music] [Laughter] down look I said you're open to the public all right at uh remember my first council meeting 632 open to the public uh John schal please got three minutes please good evening evening John schal 2750 Chisum I was about to stick my foot out and trip him yeah I'm first you should have said anyway uh again the subject subject that I just harp on constantly but at least two people at the last meeting or a workshop uh agreed with the situation well Morgan said you've got different rates for different uses of water based on a requirement of the DNR and that the more you use the more you pay and the idea is conservation very important subject conservation and council member Wong agreed with that particular situation as the way it should be council member Cole did not so conservation is not in his lexicon anyway uh since that time uh there was another story in the St Paul Pioneer Press and this time is water usage that is going to be uh used to grow more corn so they can have fuel for commercial aircraft and it's going to require the usage of 100% more water to grow 100% more corn anyway the idea is we must conserve it is not a bottomless pit and in another one two weeks ago the uh city manager of uh uh Lake Elmo was C cashiered over subject basically of water for a new school water is very important and you can't get people to realize how important it is without having them informed on their water bill that there are three rates that apply and the more that you use the higher your bill is going to be and that bill should indicate that so people in this city will real realiz what conservation is all about thank you thank you anybody online Carrie I'm sorry oh Jenny I'm sorry and no there is not okay thank you all right I'll close the the meeting at 6:35 now it's truth are we going to go that way okay go ahead uh public hearing truth and Taxation hearing uh 2024 tax Lev and budget and uh we'll turn that over to our finance director Dan Wick well thank you very much uh mayor council members um tonight is uh the 2024 truth and Taxation hearing every year I put together this uh PowerPoint presentation and I keep saying you know it's way too long I got to cut it down and I never am able to do that I think I cut out maybe about one slide out of it part of the reason I know it's it's a curse of a finance director all of the information in here is really good I know it's kind of boring but it's really good uh so I I'm not going to try to go through absolutely every single slide um I am going to hit some highlights on some of the of the different slides so we can get through there and and hopefully if there's public comment um regarding the truth and Taxation and in the levy that uh um the city council has proposed um that we can hear from questions and answers from the residents um but I kind of want to talk about um you know this 2024 budget process before we go into the truth and Taxation and um you know I before we started this process sat down with the city manager and and uh the goal and you've heard me say it before I'll say maybe a little bit differently right now but it was to be inclusive to be transparent and to tell the complete story bad or good and I think we've done that and then on on our Levy kickoff our preliminary Levy kickoff off uh with the city council there was a phrase that was used by multiple city council members that has stuck with me throughout this budget process and I think is very very true of what the city council has accomplished um in this budget um and this Levy um increase and that was don't kick the can down the road and what that means is that this may be a one-year budget but it has impacts on multiple years to come and there's three new members on the city council so this is your first time of of through the truth and Taxation hearing as being a decision maker um and it's very important that you that you understood and you heard from us as we went through this budget process some of the decisions that were made in the past and some of the implications that they have had I'm just going to give two quick examples when you do a 0% Levy and you achieve that 0% Levy by cutting staff eventually if you if you truly need those staff to provide um extraordinary service to the city you're going to have to add them back and when you add them back you're going to have to increase your property taxes well we saw that we saw that occur um in both 2021 uh 22 budget and this current 23 budget and the 24 budget here you had to address some of the decisions that were made differently and I'm not saying they were bad or they were good decisions I'm just saying the decisions that were made one in particular special assessments to do away with special assessments for your streets means that you need to generate some Revenue source to be able to adequately take care of your streets you've got something in this budget that you know to propose to to be able to do that you're dedicating 2% of the levy increase to start taking care of the streets um all I can say is kudos to all of you for making those tough decisions um this budget process started with the department heads submitting their budgets there were meetings with each and every one of the department heads this marks the 12th meeting that we've had with City Council on the budget you take this stuff seriously and that's what's important um we've had input from all the commissions arts and culture planning Parks and Recreation Eda and AR and the HRA um we've provided for um total transparency line item details we've provided 10-year Financial plans we've done B budget narratives budget summaries and so with that we're going to quickly go through the truth and Taxation presentation and kind of want to jump to this this third page if you're looking in the actual um documentation it was page 55 of 156 and that wider property taxes change there's changes in Market values That's Not underneath the city of North St Paul's control um that if you have questions with your Market values you need to talk to the assessor's office in Ramsey County uh levies of various jurisdictions we control nurse St Paul we don't control the rest of them we don't control Ramsey counties we don't control the school district we don't control the the other um um taxing authorities that are within um this property tax for this unique taxing Authority for North St Paul debt issuance we do control we're not issuing any new debt um special assessments we're not issuing any special assessments we don't have any voter approved referendums changes in state federal mandates there have been some changes in Aid and revenue from state and federal governments there's been some um in State Legislative changes we don't control those um we were fortunate enough to get a little bit more in the local government Aid this past year that you're all aware of um again I'm trying to highlight some of them so I don't take too much of your time um but every all property own owner should have receed of a truth and Taxation notice um and that'll show you what the changes are from the 2023 tax to the 2024 tax um on a actual property tax statement that's pretty close to what our median value increase um was taxpayers are going to see an overall 12.78% increase in their property taxes from 203 to 2024 14% is due to Ramsey County um 13 a half is due to the city of North St Paul 10% is due to the school district um approximately 3% is due to Metro special taxing districts and 27.8% is due to other taxing authorities um that uh fall within this uh unique taxing um District here's a graph that kind of shows the the breakdown of tax TA in authorities of a tax bill 34.5% goes to Ramsey County 31.2% goes to the school district and approximately 30% goes to the city of North St Paul values values have changed values have gone up values on the median value home have increased approximately 99.2% values overall including commercial and IND industrial are have increased about 8.5% again when values change if residential increas is more than commercial property there becomes a property tax shift in other words if you ask for the exact same amount of Le Levy the actual tax burden shifts over to the to the type of property that has a higher um value increase um and so we do see that that the residential Market is growing faster than the commercial market and so there is a tax burden shift that ends up going over to um the residents some of our 2024 High um Levy highlights um this the proposed budget in which the truth and Taxation statements was based on too um represented a city Levy increase of 88.5% % that's $557,000 um Dollar in Levy increase from 202 through in 2023 this includes both the general fund and the debt Services the average for the cities and towns in Ramsey County is a little over 10% and you remember part of our 8.53% is dedicated towards infrastructure so 5.5 is covering increases due to inflation cost of living increases due to the unions um that you know have negotiated as far as salaries um and any increases in in benefits um so the 5.5% is really not all that bad the the additional 3% 2% goes to streets 0.55% will go to parks and 0 45% of the levy will go to facilities um we also have the HRA Levy that's going to increase 11,00 and there's no change in the Eda Levy budget highlights I think that we've accomplished the important objectives of the budget to focus on the basic Ser city services and funding St um funding these activities adequately we focused on Public Safety uh focus on appropriate Staffing levels to deliver extraordinary Services demonstrate a commitment to existing infrastructure and proactive repair and replacement and adhere to a balance Balan budget in the 2024 Levy we have two additional full-time staff and there was negotiations and and and some strategy with those we're increasing in in both of the and the increases for Staffing are really in our Public Safety um areas one's a police investigator but in the meantime we're also reducing one of the part-time community service officers to offset some of that cost we're also taking and we're going to add a full-time fire code compliance officer we're going to reduce from the budget to part-time Code Compliance officers and then we're going to be increasing the on call Firefighters pay $11.50 per hour to meet to get closer to what um the region um pays the um on call fire fighters and then again as I've already mentioned we got a 3% going to streets par and then parks and Facilities again in for for full disclosure you've seen this Levy um component before um in the past we've shown everything um on the levy components all in the general fund and then we were going to do transfers to Street Maintenance Park and building maintenance um we're not going to do that um we're going to put the levy directly in the Street Maintenance Park and building maintenance um so we show full disclosure of actually where and what makes up our Levy um and so our general fund Levy will be increasing um 284,000 of that 557 th000 or 5.56% if you look at our revenues by category you're going to see we have a high dependency on property taxes 56% um followed by intergovermental revenue of 19% what makes up intergovernmental Revenue local government Aid fire Aid Aid um police Aid um expenditures by category um you're going to see 64% goes to Personnel costs that's the bigger driving factor to it as far as departments are concerned um police is our biggest um followed by fire and code enforcement those two Public Safety um functions uh represents 8% of our budget um and then um followed by Street Maintenance um so you can see um Public Safety has been something that the city council has really backed um and making sure that our residents are safe and secure um our debt Levy from the two years um really haven't changed um a great deal um we have to start paying on the 2020a um um General obligation tax increment um refund bonds um so that's really the driving Factor that's starting to increase um you know the debt from 75 uh up to $75,000 from 2023 in the levy if you remember part of our 10-year financial plan um where we're increasing the levy for the streets is basically to keep this Levy um debt Levy stagnant at the same level for the next 10 years um even though we will be issuing um debt um in the odd years beginning in 2025 um and then again in 2027 um we have some debt that will be retiring um we will not we will hold the levy the same um but um in that way we'll be able to fund um the financial plan for the streets that we had proposed comes down to the big thing and it's what's the impact on our taxpayers um with this 8.5 Levy increase if there would have been no property value change that 8.5% Levy increase would still result in a 1.3% increase why is that it's because in 2023 the market values for residential in you know on average increased about 15% um we had a total Levy of about 12.8 um so what ends up happening is it's that fiscal disparities component to it that our actual tax rate actually dropped which then ends up holding everything constant we we get less dollars from the fiscal disparities pool back and remember the city of North St Paul is a winner as far as fiscal disparities is concerned but very few properties had a 0% value increase so let's take a look at that median value increase of of approximately 99.2% with that 8.5 it's going to result in an increase for our taxpayers of $137 on an annual basis um a little less than 12% increase um so when we had our budget kickoff one of the questions that that ask the city council is what's your Levy Target the reason for that you know the reason for it but I want our residents to know that too and the reason for that is because for every 1% of an increase on this median value it equates to $14 for our residents so when you you're taking that look at it you're saying hey this is kind of where the affordability line is going to be and it gives staff direction to build a budget that is going to be comparable or somewhere in that range and again I think that we've done that and I think that we've been able to really accomplish a lot of great things moving forward especially with some of the past decisions and again that's really the focus on the infrastructure in 2024 and again HRA and Eda H's Levy increases 11,000 Eda does not increase at all it stays the same as it was in 2023 there is some additional information um that's put into this truth and Taxation presentation kind of shows you all of the cities and towns that are in in Ramsey County and what their um levies are um that were proposed and you can see um North St Paul is is a little lower than the the uh Middle Point um and again below the overall average um that we're seeing in cities and towns um this information here just kind of shows and I've highlighted the North St Paul what it's showing is that of our 37 um 100 Parcels you know 1500 will see an increase in the range of 0 to 10% in their property taxes and this is Total Property Tax change um not just including North St Paul but all the other taxing jurisdictions and approximately 1,400 will see a 10 to 20% increase um again um there's some information in the back um for our residents that if they have questions regarding their valuations or property classes um that you know it's really to contact uh the County Assessors um and then the state provides some programs for senior citizens property tax to furls um and then reminding everybody to make sure that they have home Homestead deadlines um and then there's some exclusion programs that that they need to be aware of um I think I did that pretty quick um and um there's a lot of good information that's in there um but before I go to questions and in comments and and ask for for any uh first questions from city council and then if there's any public um the real thing is I'm I'm really proud of what the city council has accomplished we we've met quite a few times um we've had some very good conversations um there was really some some tough um history learning um but um you made some fantastic decisions and some very tough decisions and so I'm very proud of you um for that and being a part of this organization and I want to give a lot of credit to um our city manager for um giving me um you know Direction um in this budget process um so I will take any questions that our city council will have first sorry I turn it off for that thank you for the report and the into your staff for everything I've learned a lot this is my first year of course being new mayor and the biggest part I Learned was the um intergovernmental and the disparity the fiscal you know I didn't understand that if you did a zero% levy then you would lose money on the on the other end of it where it's I guess this way to explain it is if you put in the state will put in with you but if you don't they're not going to is that correct it it doesn't it doesn't come from the state it comes from the metro area the other metro area yeah based upon their yeah that was something I didn't know anything about until uh until we got through this process where you did that so I was very enlightening to understand how how things work so thank you for your report nothing else I agree with being this our as a new council member this being my first year understanding all of this um I I appreciate everything that you put together Mary Kay you guys are wonderful in all the meetings that you have attended or have created for us and we attended and asked all the questions thank you for everything thank you yes Mary Kay um is a absolute fantastic addition to the city um not saying that I'm ready to hang up uh my finance director uh title at this point in time you never know someday I might um but I hopefully um she will be the next Finance director for the city part of why I say that and why it's important is because in the time that I've been here there has been so much change um Change in city council um change in our city manager um and you know before I came here you had to change in in uh Finance directors um when you have that change you lose some of the history and the continuity of what's moving forward um and it's very important um that we have those 10 years Financial plans and we have the commitment to making those become a reality to make sure that the city is in the best position that it can uh can be um and so the person who's behind me who's helped a great deal um in all of these presentations and putting this information um is by far smarter than I am um and uh will be a great successor and will be able to carry on uh moving this city from a financial standpoint in the right direction thank you do we have any um public comments or from any citizens whether in attendance or online is there anybody that uh would like to speak if not nope just the usual name in three minutes please John Schall 2750 Chisum Avenue and looking over the uh uh whatever this is that we work from the presentation this budget I've attend just to say I've attended every one of the budget meetings and this budget that you have here is not what was spoken about and agreed to at these budget meetings um there are no transfers in this is there must be another budget somewhere is there another budget somewhere of the total uh revenues and expenditures because I don't see anything here about transfers in that's a question that's an an answer to that is that the truth and Taxation is about the property taxes and the property taxes um talks about Levy um and the levy is the general fund um including um City operations and the debt and it also includes um the um Eda and the HRA um those transfers uh that you I I believe that you speak about um because there are transfers that are in this budget because every historically every Enterprise fund has transferred money to the general fund and you'll see that $820,000 is still in the budget so there are transfers in in this budget um but I think the one that you're talking about would be showing up um in a special Revenue in the Enterprise funds so I could ask for the real budget this is the levy budget that he's doing right now this I could ask for the real budget because this does not match with what I have seen by attending the budget meetings and if you want to know specifically the $1.2 million taken from the electric Enterprise fund because of what the finance director said to in a meeting where did it come from we charged too much so there is a budget somewhere that has a $1.2 million transfer in and that is dedicated to something is that a correct statement on my part um partially it's a $1.1 million transfer instead of 1.2 well let's let's be let's be correct on things and again it'll show up in the Enterprise fund and um a special revenue for the Street Maintenance um and the city council at the next city council meeting will be approving all budgets and all budgets will be shown at that point in time um this is the again the truth and Taxation where we talk about the levy and the impact of what um residents had seen um as far as their truth and Taxation um truth and Taxation statement and U what the levy impact will be on a property tax oh it would be nice to know uh and uh as part of this that this that you have in this presentation is not the true City budget um it is the true City budget yes it is based on come from the levy but not from transfers in this is the true City budget I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree we certainly can and and uh again next um city council meeting um all of the budgets um will be presented at that point in time just like you've seen them and they and they haven't changed since the time that you've seen in other meetings yeah truth and truth and Taxation hearing is what this was for tax levy and budget yes okay thank you all right all right City business action items um Mr Mayor or Brian if I can just so we we did that was the public hearing and it was opened Mr Mayor is that correct yeah if there's if there's nobody else if we want to close the he right if there's nobody else clarify thank you I'll close it at 701 thank you all right City business action items and recommendations uh item a is building official contract with Rum River Consulting um turn that over to Brandy our community development director uh mayor and city council as you probably are aware the city has been contracting its building official and building inspection services with minspect since 2018 our contract with minspect expires in uh at the end of the month 201 23 and keeping with the purchasing policy and with council's directive to evaluate service providers through a competitive process staff issued an RFP for inspection services in September of this year uh that RFP was advertised on the city's website the league of Minnesota cities uh via direct email to a contact list as well we received two proposals one was from minspect and the other was from R River Consultants our evaluation process included review by five staff members which included the fire chief the assistant fire chief Finance director myself and a customer service assistant both firms were brought in for inperson interviews and reference checks were completed we also evaluated the overall contract um of each and the fee schedules of each organization in addition to that uh fee review we completed reference checks for both um both companies and Rum River um from several of their client communities as well excuse me after a thorough review of uh both proposals we recommend moving forward with the contract with Rum River overall during the interview process and then follow-up conversations their staff was thoroughly impressed impressive um we were impressed with their level of professionalism their attention to detail and customer service that they presented it is our hope and expectation that this change will result in improved customer service better communication and collaboration between the inspection team and City staff and an overall streamlined permitting process uh staff is now recommending that we enter into a contract with r River Construction Consultants beginning in January 1st with an ongoing annual renewal of approved by city council a contract is in the council packet um and this has been reviewed by staff and City attorney any questions for me regarding that any questions anyone yeah so I I um have some questions um based off of an email that I had received um and just questions in regards to some of the documentation um so in the staff me Memo under dis discussion section um the third bullet point states that mpec charges $60 for residential and 90 for commercial inspections the implication is that um they charge a per of the permit fee and also charge for every inspection they perform um the fees in the fee schedule that this information is taken from um is for preconstruction site inspections is what I've been told um so which um are performed at our requests um so there's discussion that that's not part of the permitting fee and um it's rarely requested by the city what what is the question there uh my question would be then um so um they are not part of the permitting fee or they are I I'm not pery to the email that you're referring to so I'm having a little yeah hard time following the question um so the question is related to the third bullet inspection fees MH um well this information came from a um document that was provided by R River as a review of their fees versus uh the city's fees so it's possible that there was a misinterpretation by myself of those um those various fees both both organizations are in the audience tonight if we wanted further discussion on that particular point that' be great to have some clarification around that I agree percentages in that understand it would would you care to come up please Carrie thank you uh I'd like to allow Carrie uh to introduce herself she's with r murer Consulting you can pull the mic down if it's we got lot of people in the audience challenged good evening city council and mayor thank you for inviting us here tonight um council member Wong your question um is related to my understanding of erosion control inspections the pre-construction site inspections so I believe um that Miss how on that third bullet point um was referring to the um site completion inspection fees so our proposal we do not charge any additional fees those are part of our process and included within um the building permit fee that is charged on building permits where minspect has an additional 60 for residential and 90 for commercial so um the inspection fee that is correct on that third bullet point it's just for the um site inspection does that help yeah I think so thank you any other questions if not vote on it okay want to read the we're going to vote on let me grab that boy so looks like it says they building the official contract we're Waring the official contractor Rum River Consulting is that correct correct yes that is correct I have a do I have a motion so moved so move council member swe second second second council member Wong all those in favor say i i i n thank you all right next up is discussion of the Park rental policy I'll turn that back over to Brandy um you'll recall at the last council meeting we had a item on there that was the Park rental policy um update the Parks Commission uh Parks and Recreation Commission rather reviews that Park rental policy annually and they make recommendations for updates to city council uh this fall the PRC recommended that several updates be made to that policy and those include um prohibition of several items in the facilities water balloons glitter confetti and glass containers uh prohibited prohibit clarification that smoking is prohibited in park buildings or anywhere within the park creating a $150 deposit for events that hold um that host with alcohol which is in response to significant cleanup cost at the indoor facilities and clarification that key codes or a key access is required um for buildings and that after hour access requests would result in additional fee so if you recall that at Council you consider these changes and requested additional additional information related to The Pavilion um and the facility cost specifically so the staff took a look and Ransom reports and the following table provides uh rental information for Casey Lake from January through September of 2023 in those nine months Casey Lake was rented 133 times with the net rental value of $3,110 and that net value is the total revenue less cleaning costs over that period uh we were able to obtain information that there were seven instances where damage deposits were withheld for a variety of reasons and a total of sorry $1,675 of deposits was withheld um some of those reasons included additional cleanup fees minor damage due to the use of double-sided tape um the need for extra dumpsters and the failure of the renters to adhere to the park policy which means that they didn't vacate um by 11:00 which is the the deadline for leaving housy Park we rented that facility 73 times um during that same period the net rental Revenue was $ 7,340 there was only one instance where damage was withheld um deposit rather and that was because they did not vacate by 11:00 and they did not clean up after um the rental was complete I asked uh our police chief to investigate whether we had any um extraordinary police calls for that for those two facilities and there were no service calls at Casey Lake um to date and there was two for howy housy Park uh rental data was also reviewed to determine if there were duplicate rentals under a single name that might signify the incurrence of potential subletting that was brought up as an issue um of concern at the last meeting we found that there were 21 individuals that rented a facility more than one time per the calendar year and we found that of the those two rented housy three times uh one rented Casey three times one rented housy four times and all others um they rented a facility just twice uh our finance and Public Works uh departments provided the cost estimates for operating and capital cost for KY Lake and housy park and the table in front of you relates those facility costs um as indicated the total annual cost for Casey specifically is 12753 3 and annual cost for housing is about 31,000 so when we relate these costs to the rental rate or the total number of rentals that we might have over a calendar year um the total cost of a reservation at Casey Lake would be over $800 if we were to take that same amount and just consider um the rental rate without the capital costs it would be 344 and if we were going to then request um to retain the operating plus half of the facility cost the rental would be $579 and similar figures are shown for housy Park staff also asked I'm sorry Council also asked staff to research other facility rentals um we looked we tried to find as many as we could that had similar capacity and so what you have on the screen is 49 um capacity which is housy Park up to 200 of this what I'll call the smaller range the weekend rates range from $300 to $600 for residents or 350 to 750 for non-residents for those larger facilities that have capacity of 215 up to 300 the weekend rates for those facilities range from 500 to, 1600 for residents and 625 to 1820 for non-residents other um other fees also were itemized as kitchen kitchen use fees uh security after weekends uh a larger group fee and then additional deposit if alcohol has served so taking all this information um most specifically that fee related to the facility uh maintenance and operating costs we've compiled some options in in terms of if we were to change our rates for the two parks there's a high two medium options and a low option the high option would cover both of the operating and capital costs medium A and B provide two mid- rate options that would consider operating costs in a portion of the capital costs and the low rate would increase the rates just slightly higher than our current rates but would not uh fully cover those operating costs so with that I'll take any questions um and I can stay here and keep that on the screen if that helps Brandy the officer called a housy park was that directly related to a renter or do we not know I don't know that I have that information the question that I posed to the police chief was what um what rates were or sorry not rates what uh police calls were specifically for the facilities so I think it was probably related to arent enter but I don't have the detail as far as um what the issue was or the date thank you can you speak to how you got the 50% or chose the 50% um Capital cost to cover half or is that just that was a suggestion by our finance director and I can defer to him um again the 50% it could be 30 it could be 70% we just kind of split it down the middle what it really try to tries to represent is that uh the question that comes to city council is is there some sort of subsidy that um that the city council was comfortable with um that would go towards the the Park rental component to it um so again there's no exact signs why it was 50% okay thank you for that clarification any other questions can you can you pop on this front screen um control room thank you thank you first Brandy I want to thank you I was I was the guy that asked that asked all the questions thank you for doing this you're welcome um the intent wasn't necessarily to say we need to raise or lower the rent rates I just wanted to get a better snapshot because it had probably been a year or two since we had looked at any of them um also interested in just what local you know um St Pete's and and the Le leg and I think the legion is 600 bucks a night so um so this really truly does help we are providing one heck of a bargain based off of the the chart that's in front of us to our residents um I mean if you look at I mean the high is eight and we're basically the low um so I guess that's that's part of the reason why I wanted to do that the other piece was I had concern with um the reported damages that I had been hearing um the struggles that were taking place with um the the crew the cleaning people going in to clean and people not vacating um and I also was of the belief that the park hours closed before the property did during the summer and I think I caught that and in part of this packet that they actually 11 o'clock is when parks close so I guess it was new news to me so thank you you're welcome I appreciate doing everything and answering all my questions not a problem um I mean I I I guess I want to open this up maybe for for a little discussion definitely um where's everybody's Comfort level what's going on um I view Casey lake is a uh huge asset to the city uh a huge asset to the residents um The Pavilion is what I'm referencing the park as well but the Pavilion more specifically um and I just want to make sure that we're taking proper care of it um so I'm I'm I'm not here to suggest we need to raise rates we need to lower rates we need to do anything um I just wanted to look a little deeper into to where we sat but we've got the best value on the market I Echo what you said on that as far as that but I uh also would like to be able to get enough where we can put money back into to keep up with tables and chairs and things so where it's not just going to be on the the taxpayers to be able to do that so you know I would like to see myself as far as being a little bit higher so we can have some of that be put back into the parks themselves in the Pavilion not maybe at the high level but towards where there's a percent that goes into it that we can keep for improvements and to take care of things can I ask on the um cover page where you have um the chart um and it has the deposit value withheld um um and the net revenue did did the renter did it was it often that renters went over um the deposit or exceeded that I don't know that our recordkeeping is adequate enough to answer that question um I also don't know that the dep or the damage that has occurred has I think that would be a question for Public Works or potentially the cleaner from what I could tell from the information that we had the quote unquote damage that was um occurring was pretty minor you know sticky tape or issues with cleanup primarily uh those were the biggest costs and I don't think that we ever came to a point where at least for the last nine months where we uh had to pay out in order to rent the facility if that's where you're going yeah I just kind of wanted to see you know is it um something we do have to raise is that something to consider is also the deposit or what have you um if I could add which I haven't said yet which might be helpful is our methodology for determining the amount of deposit to withhold has not been really defined so I think it would be helpful in our policy if we clarified that if you are in violation of any part of the policy perhaps you get no do deposit returned that may be um more strict than what this Council would like to work with um maybe there is a ranking system but some clarity on when and how much deposit to withhold would be um something to consider and also when I look at the numbers too that you had there too there's not much difference between residents and non-residents as far as the um usually it's quite a bit more when it's when it's a non-resident because we have as residents have skin in the game and we're providing that service so usually I would think it'd be quite a bit more for a non-resident compared to a resident that's something I'm concerned about because part of our tax dollars going to take care of our Parks sure so this item is a discussion item staff is looking for direction in terms of are we going to modify the rates if so it would be included in our next in our fee schedule for the next Council um meeting for Action may I ask you to go back to or go back to the slide that you were at with the the low y uh this slide also has a weekend versus weekday rate suggested for housy which doesn't currently exist so that's something else to keep in mind rentals have been open or reservations have been open for 5 days now cor correct how many do we have in when was December Friday so three business days are there any in already oh yes almost I think I heard almost all the summer dates were taken for Casey leag Summer Weekend or summer weekends I'm sorry okay wow okay oh wow just today no that's from DEC oh and they know when they signed up that rates we had that on the website yep good because that's only fair and they can decide if we do something if they still want to continue and we can get it done sooner do you know how often um weekdays versus weekends are being I mean weekends obviously are popular um I'm just wondering if there is a particular rate for the weekday that that would um you know go one way or another depending on uh how often it's reserved for example if it's not um super popular on the weekday um are there different you know amounts that we can consider to encourage more reservations I don't know if I have the answer to that yeah I'm just kind of broadly yeah I'm sorry I mean we do have a lower rate for the weekdays and generally weekdays are just less popular yeah um I think that uh continuing to have a a smaller rate for those days would make sense what that what that is can you also go back to the slide where it showed everything janitorial and everything again if you don't mind this one we're now we're broke out how much for each department janitor there you go thank you okay so this is how what it cost to maintain the facility so$ 127,000 you said we had $130,000 worth of what what your $30,000 were what was the M we brought in Revenue yes I'm sorry 30 something 33 30 but then but 30 but that that took the number away from all the expenses right that's what we ended up with MH cuz you said some correct okay because I thought you said something about not including expenses and something okay yeah so the the janitorial expenses in that other slide is separate from any cleaning related to a rental so we also maintain those facilities and they get cleaned up by the janitor on a I think a daily basis as well okay even inside the building Casey's open during the day with nobody there is that do you know the or is there outside bathrooms too probably yeah those outside bathrooms there're inside and outside or just outside I can't remember you can access them from outside or inside okay all right so there's always a having a park cost of cleaning the bathrooms taking care of the park normally and then this would be on top of the the normal stuff Y correct okay just wanted to be clear on that and part of it too is I was you know we have a great staff that cleans here and takes care of our and I don't want them to be into situations where they're acting like a um you know the you got to get out type of thing and that concerns me for for that for them so how we can help them to be able to make sure we get people out of there when we're supposed to and there has to be some kind of a consequence otherwise they're it puts them in not a good spot in my mind I personally like the proposal for the pricing on the low offers but I'd also like to see our non-residents up at $75 so I see it's a $50 increment I'd like to see it at 75 that's just a personal opinion so for clarity when you say lower you're referencing the far right column far yeah far right hand column um just for knowledge I very quickly did back of the envelope math um and it looks like the cleaning fee for the facility is about $100 a rental so when you take a look at a residential week day of $200 50% of that is consumed with the cleaning Fe so there's not a lot of money going back in um so I would be inclined to agree with some type of a slight increase um just to help offset some of the the rising costs do we know the last time we've taken a increase on our rent on our properties random question the a rate increase on these I I'm sorry I do not know I think it's been a while and when was the building built you know you live there you live behind the building right in the park I saw you a few years ago yeah so I mean just like just like anything else we're going to start getting into new tables need to be replaced and there's other things that are coming up that we need to keep TR discussing it at P&R last time I want to say it was 2017 so we're you know that's six years so we're starting to get to where things are going to need it so I'm leaning more towards the middle a myself for a resident and then a non-residents I would go up another $200 yeah that's me mayor that's why we got so many people up here mayor oh I think for myself I would um look at the low end here um just partly because we have though people have authenticated that rates could change that still can be um just some dissatisfaction with customer service let's just say that and so um I think also just uh incremental is probably a little bit more um um I'd say safer at this point just kind of and then give us a point to reevaluate from um so I can see the low being a good Baseline for us to start my personal opinion is I like giving the direction to staff of low with a goal of two to three years maybe to be at that Medium a and that we revisit this earlier in the year um next year you know uh September is but but this year for low and then I I I I'm kind of in line with the mayor for that Medium a but not an initial one-time jump yeah mayor I make you guys look good seeing least I'm at least I'm not as bad as the mayor so you know I help out when I can as for the cleaning and maybe this um yeah as for the cleaning um what kind of um dumpsters or or trash cans are available to um those that are renting are there any on site before um cleaners come or are they just the the the blue bins that we have out there just the barrels okay and and they're typically overflowing okay yeah I'm just wondering if if that's something small that we can do that doesn't cost too much money as to put extra bins out there or or trash cans I don't know it's probably already been done but um our genitor service is pretty good about letting us know and then what he notifies Ron then they they'll go out the next day they usually put the bags by that and they'll pick them up the next morning um they're pretty good about communication with that okay I think any issue with the waste is related to very large events that have happened this summer where we had to bring in dumpsters okay all right I still like to push for the non-resident fee to be increase to I I don't believe $50 is sufficient enough and at least if that's what I'm looking at down below with a low pricing yep 300 for non-residents yeah for weekday 450 for again us taxpayers are paying for that like you had indicated and we're going to have to continue to maintain it so therefore I'd like to see it higher than $50 for me someday when we have to do a remodel or do something then we're not going to have a lot of money there for it so I'm still for mine so silver medium high I absolutely can get behind Cassidy and go for the low with the 75 for the non-resident for this next MH so does that look like 325 for a weekday for a non-resident and then 475 for a non-resident on the weekend you're looking at yes sorry I'm trying to do the math yeah yeah I I will tell you I do not have a math degree okay if we do yes that does okay if we did just wanted to clarify do low at 250 I'd still like to see it closer to double for non-residents for a weekday anyone any anything they do so there there killing me what why do we give you $100 I'm willing to go 100 any high as you can go I just think there's a value to us we take you know it's our tax dollars we take care of it and I think people have to have skin in the game when it comes to using our facilities that what the deposit is well still we providing the service we built it and you know it's a a great deal even at that price even at you know I don't disagree however with council member Wong some of these folks did already I mean our summer is nearly booked okay thank you [Music] Carrie so what do we do we got a Comm thing going here or something mayor mayor could continue the discussion at a future date and keep the rates as they are we got my op we got to figure it out I'll work my way I'll work my way down if people work their way up how was that I like the low and I am with the 75 I'll agree to a little bit more how about 50 or 300 how we go we do middle a middle b 300 375 I'll go there even I like to go higher 375 I still like it closer to rates are getting high resident resident rate I'm comfortable with low non-resident I guess that's that's your comfort level um referenced $75 I'm I'm comfortable with a little bit more for a non-resident standpoint um here if we can you know meet in the middle at a $100 increase for the yep we'll meet in the middle for that and we'll come back to the issue of because I still I still think that's that's low but like we talked about start with this work our way in increments I can do that I I agree it's still even at even at the low prices we still offer quite the value out there we are now at the low end um we're below the low end as we as we currently sit um sometimes that's not good renting to General Public um and council member and Arby I wholeheartedly agree the conversation needs to start sooner than later for for um for next year so we can have this conversation and may even actually take place in a workshop as opposed to a council meeting so we can gain you know gain a little better alignment um if we're comfortable on pricing can we shift gears into damage deposits yep perfect so to clarify if non-res non-resident we boost it up an additional 100 correct I thought it was 75 well they were just council member Cole and mayor we're just talking about compromise they compromise at you good with it I I would be good with it so the low column with a $100 increase for any non-resident correct okay coun I'm wrong can you say repeat that again the low column would be the one that we would go with with the exception of any non-residential rate it would increase by $100 from what is per currently listed so your non-resident week day goes from 250 to 350 your non-resident weekend goes from four to 5 of which are about 59 higher than below and they're still lower than medium so are we talking also about howy Park as well I'm F just are focused on on Casey I just wanted to clarify I'm comfortable with with howy the way it is I think um I guess I would have have to look to others if we have have issues or have problems um I'd want to look to Public Works of what howy looks like when you do have to clean up that area [Music] Ron trying to follow you we're going to do $100 for each group for non-resident increase basically $50 for no I guess can't $ for the weekend well I think and Council M Wong asked to be clarified and I think maybe I was saying $100 off of the 300 what it is right now so that'd be 400 for Casey M yeah that's what I was looking at too oh I'm I was looking at I was looking at week day all the way down the line yeah yep it' be $100 all the way down $100 all the way ated each non-resident price but only for Casey we haven't got that far yet to the other ones I guess we haven't talked about it so I'm thoroughly confused because nonresident so you're saying you want W day from to currently resident weekday is 200 you want to you're suggesting three oh I apologize that I was over in the because we started with the low one so the 250 so the 250 is what we're looking at going with for that and I was on the same column of the of the low one so oh sorry that's all right so because we talked about the the far right column and that's what I've been working myself off of so but let's so resident week day goes from 200 to 250 nonresident weekday goes 250 to 350 who's got the pointer I do that's awesome now you're moving really fast yep you're right resident weekend goes from 3 to 4 and non-resident weekend goes from 4 to 5 correct yeah are we yep we're good are we align yep yep all right next step now are we going to talk about howy or we're going to go to deposits right away talk howy I do you see any difference between the two parks I don't I I walk past housy Park every single day I take my dog for a walk I think the increases we're doing for Casey are in line with howy I see it used all the time um but the little little bit of an increase to me makes sense okay so straight across the board go to low so 175 for a resident weekday 275 for non-resident weekday and 200 for Resident weekend and 300 for Resident weekend would be my thought did how he have how he didn't have a resident non-resident it has resident and non-resident it doesn't it doesn't have doesn't break out week day and weekend I believe that's what it is correct yeah so we'll be breaking that out and doing the same thing as we did with Casey right if that is your direction you see any difference between the two parks I mean there's both shelters and everything I mean they both have buildings and used you see mean other than the number of people you can pack into houses less than 50 what about the amenities M better amenities at casy I mean I'm comfortable with either leaving the way it is for bringing it up to the low i' I'd be in favor for for the low column so low with the $100 increase for non-residents so tell me the dollar amount you want to take it from and take it to you want to take 200 to 300 yeah I mean that's that's mine the non-resident fee would go to three 00 yes yep where are you looking at housy so he's looking at non-resident weekday it would be 200 to 300 Wouldn't It Go from 200 to 275 we've been doing 100 in we've been doing right $100 over what the redm pays over a building that just hold three times the number of people do we have have an idea of how often howy is rented out like a a ballpark percentage of per year like I think it was 73 rentals in the entire year period but you still have the whole people in the park too plus the building I mean you could have a lot more than actually fit in a building yeah so between January and September we had 73 okay versus 100 33 at Casey Lake go back to the um if you wouldn't mind that slide please with the options options thank you I guess my concern for howy to increase it uh 100 um seems a little bit steep in terms of proportion when I'm thinking about Casey Lake um versus howy again uh because of the amenities and um you know there's a lake at Casey Lake y yeah I'm looking though if you look at that current column 200 it didn't go up for at the low it stayed the exact same but the resident went up from 150 to 175 why when everything else went up for res everything else except that one stayed at 200 yeah looks like it only went up we were running out of options or uh keeping it within that range so it's it can be flexible really how we do 250 for for the non-resident for non-resident so housy would be every $50 for non-resident for housy $100 for non-resident for Casey with the low column all the way to the right we're going to do the pricing for the low $50 non resident Hy $100 Casey just talk dollar you 150 you've lost me rental is 150 right now y right now you're proposing 175 Y and 200 is right now and I'm proposing 275 because it were 200 200 it stayed the same all the way across the board so it's going to be 175 and 250 so okay done all right I agree all in favor and then 200 275 for weekend sure he's taking not is that good now one quick C she's unplugging and she's done are you making fun with fun with number is over with with her are you guys making a motion talked hours we haven't talked penties the rest of the um the other piece is the rental of housy does that include the picnic Pavilion along with the building or is that separate I I need to verify that but memory wants me to say that it's includes both I don't know I've got let me pull open the fee schedule and I can tell you is that so so they get the whole thing then that's fine so all the picnic tables outside plus the Pavilion same thing with Casey then well there's not separate I mean all the table separate facility for a picnic area where Casey's under the Shel yep yeah the with Casey the outside area is part of your rental MH and I I believe it's the same at howy okay that's all all right thank you and then deposits are we comfortable with where they are I I basically am I'm more I'm more in line with putting a little more meat behind if you're not out by 11 o' you lose half your deposit if you're not I just want to make it easier for yep and they know the rules right is it numbers okay with for deposit yep you mhm I should say council member it's all good you it's all good sorry about that all right what's the next so I move that we make the changes discussed to the fee schedule do we have one more thing we got to hit first oh do we want to talk about the rest of the policy of park hours um I think that's in it's in there yeah are you going to talk about that at all I don't have any additional comments on that I just reported what they right now the discretion or the what we had before was we thought the Pavilion went an hour longer than the park but the park and The Pavilions are the same hours correct so we're covered there are you good with it yeah as long as they're the same I thought one yep that was a great thing because they shouldn't have something open if the Park's closed and it makes it hard for the police and everybody else to figure out what's going on there so long as they match was there anything else and then the only thing I thought of is do we want to make some type of find penalty whatever from your deposit if you don't vacate by just yep I don't know how many instances we had um I know there was enough that we heard about yeah quite a bit when we're in summertime probably around five at least so lose 50% of the deposit if you're not out by 11 if you're not out at 11 I'm waiting for you just make it a flat fee of a 100 bucks I don't know we're paying the cleaners to just sit there so they're on the clock so the who calls the police the cleaners so that's the first thing if they get there and it's gone past and it's not they're not leaving they call the police they're pretty good about stepping up and and talking to them and asking them to leave that this is the time and if people are getting rowdy then they'll go the next step to the the PD and that's where the position I don't want to put these poor people in is even can be dangerous yep I mean because that's that's not acceptable how can we oh here he comes I knew we'd finally get him out of the bullpen welcome state your name and what you do for the city Ryan Richie 2485 I spoke with uh is this working um I spoke with the cleaners today about that and he said and one of his comments was was that he had told some of the people that had rented the building you know hey if you're you're not out of here at on the time you're going to lose your deposit and he goes um a handful of times people just walk away and said if I'm lose my deposit then I'm you know they would didn't do anything to clean up so just keep that in mind he just told we're talking about that today so I mean I you know I don't know information decide on you know what what you're going to hold back for that but if deposit is not much they think well spend an hour or two cleaning if I if I'm losing half of it anyways just walk away again calls are them are like a regular like reported call where they actually got called out or if that was how many times that it was not the I forget the terminology that Phil uses but it was specific calls to those facilities is what I was referring to do we know how many times it was abandoned where they just said out the door and didn't do anything no I think that only happened once it's not common did that happen more than once I don't no Caesar was saying he was just telling me today that um there's a lot of times that he'd go down there and he'd tell the people hey you're going to lose your damage deposit and the people just stop doing what they were you know doing and just walk away from they'd grab you know their stuff that any little cleanup that they would probably do for the you know kind of out of courtesy he goes they' stop doing goes so I just stopped saying that to them so the one the one where they abandoned the whole thing they assumed they could come back in the morning to pick up their stuff so they had left everything there so do we have anything in place that if they lose their entire damage Deposit they are ineligible from renting for a certain period of time uh we do not have that yet oh thank you excuse me I've been corrected Carrie says that we do we do so that is in the policy currently my apologies that's it doesn't happen it sounds like which which I think is fortunate a lot but sometimes you look at the mess and you look at the $150 and you go okay well bye yeah because it's not much of a deposit but I'm glad it doesn't happen very often thing know I guess my sorry my opinion going if they know that going in they might be more yep you know more willing to make sure that they adhere to what is being asked of them as opposed to posit if you don't if you don't if you're not gone and you know that becomes a threat after the fact as opposed to being educated in advance so the posit is $150 if I remember right right is that right I think remember right that was we're looking at additional 150 for people who with alcohol deposit for for howy it's oh Casey is um 300 on weekdays 350 on weekends I mean if we do a percent I like your idea where you there's a % if you don't leave in time and not you know 25 50% something like that because we're charging and they charge us 100 bucks an hour hour to clean correct so 15- minute increments something like that so I mean whatever it is but you know not like I agree with what uh What uh Ron just said if it's all right at the beginning but if you at least say you know if there's certain percent if you go over you know this time limit you're going to lose 50% or 25% of your deposit not the whole thing because then they still get in the game thoughts good you should only take two strides to get to that microphone why do you send that far back um I who's going to determine the time if you we're going to have in the contract we're going to write up there right but at that so at that time if she said if you're not out of there at 11 o' correct you lose yep from 11 to I guess how I'm understanding this is if it's 11 to 11:15 you lose $25 and if it's 11:30 you lose yep but who's going to determine that time Cesar the cleaners it's going to be the cleaners when they call up and say they didn't leave at 11 o'clock if they get there because they're get we're paying them to be there so we should be taking out of the deposit to pay to have them sitting there okay is that okay great any ideas my hesitation with um you know taking away the uh percentage even is um perhaps it doesn't seem like it's it's a big enough pattern and that's that's something I'd hate to to you know put a price on because it doesn't seem to be a pattern but if if there's something there in rating then they know when they're looking at it we better get out of here otherwise we're going to have some skin in the game if we go let who cares you know we go 15 minutes over or something like that to me it's just courtesy to have them okay it's 11:00 we have an agreement at 11:00 you know you need to be out of there we have Crews and just say that right in the contract we have cleaning crews that show up at the at 11:00 to clean and if they're if you're not out percentage of the deposit goes away because we're hiring people to stand there that's my opinion yeah um so I think you had alluded to to maybe even more education up front to um I would also be in favor of that would be on the contract M right on a contract but who's reading contracts a lot of people don't and so to make it a little bit more accessible I think to the public maybe it's a short video of like this is what we're asking you to do um these are the quick rules bam bam I like that idea of a video watch it and then and hopefully that will help and it's it seems to be uh something that can complement until you know something gets worse I still like like to go with the percent and then have the education too because when we're paying somebody to be up there we it's not up for every 15 minutes that's why I is $100 an hour somebody said somewhere for some something cleaning is that too much much tracking I no the is that too much imposing on the cleaners that that's what a little bit of my concern was I agree is putting that on them they're there to come and clean the building and now they have to now let's say they went there to clean and they we they said hey they're not out yet we're going to leave go down to mcnight and do a cleaning that we have to do there now they're kind of locked in staying there for how long were they there and then the argument of well no we left at 11:15 and they said no it was 11:18 and I we're kind of putting that on the cleaner and that's well I thought they would stay there I had no idea that they would go to another building M Night in the middle of the night at 11:00 to start a new building well they I mean they yeah they they do the bathrooms at Silver Lake all summer they do you know if we have something going on at mcnight if there's a tournament I mean they could leave and come back and you know you just don't know they'd be locked into staying there I mean that's why we're paying for it to have them there I don't want them to go in I mean that's something where I just don't want to keep their safety where they're not going up to people and saying you know that type of stuff because I think that's not a position for them I agree just in the car looking okay well you know and they just have to report back they left at 11:15 I went in there cleaned I left at 11:30 okay that's $50 later and if after half an hour you call the police does the same cleaner clean Casey as howy yep so we're only going to have a monitor at One Park if we're if we're if they're both booked I don't necessarily know we have a problem yeah so right now if somebody stays late they what what is there they come in 11 o' and they're still there they approach the people and say it's time to go they usually do yes then they go another time if they're not you know 10 minutes later they might they might hang out and wait a little bit they might go and do something else and come back I you know I don't know for sure I don't I don't think it's like schedule I mean I think they try to be there at 11:00 just because I think that's one of the last build you know the buildings that are rented that's the last things they do for the evening so they try to get in there and get out you know and get done but well if I'm putting too much of thought or too much into this let me know I mean to me that's hear your uh concern with with the the cleaners and and you know making sure that they're respected and they're just trying to do their job um um I'm wondering if this this route um charging um for extra time over um kind of also adds more work or adds a different layer to it so it kind of um you know it's a tradeoff either they're addressing people or you know um okay what do we do if we don't do anything as far as any kind of how do we take it so they're not approaching people to leave because I'm not comfortable with that at all I also think that if you put I'm going to recommend 50% you lose 50% of your deposit if you're not gone by 11 o'clock because that's going to put I mean personally that's going to put me I'm heading out the door and then they're not approaching anybody trying not to be the grumpy one again well I'll be the Grumpy One on that one okay you do that hey we're Team here all right thank you going to get in trouble enough I think a 50 I think you lose half of your deposit because then we're avoiding our cleaners approaching these individuals so you want to read what you just showed me uh the current renter responsibility says all reservations uh must be cleaned up and out of the park building by 11:00 p.m. or they will automatically forfeit their depos it there you go it's current policy I didn't know we had done but then it becomes this whole issue like you said where they just yeah okay I'm done oh you're I think it's on the cleaners one way or the other because they're the last person unless with unless we're paying someone from the city to go down there and and manage this yep Brian do we have public camera coverage of both parks um we have them at howy just Casey we don't want to add any more work to the staff I just want to make sure that our contractors are are safe and I and I agree with you too I mean it's been you know when I've heard the stories from when they're down there you know having an argument people to tell them not to leave and they have to contact the police it's really not fair to them because that's not their responsibility they're just down there to get the building ready for the next people you know and have to do it at that night you know because I believe the next rental agreement starts at 7:00 a.m. if that's correct right so that they have that small window they got that you know less than seven hours or I guess eight hours if they're out at 11 to get that building cleaned up so what can I mean well I mean the I just think like policy is more talking about it is then we should remain with it make the motion yeah what do you think no well I just think it's like uh it feels a little bit punitive to me that's all and I understand that um there are things that um people do and often times it's the entire it's an entire party and then that one person who you know is running the party has to try to get all these people people out and if they go 15 minutes over it just feels punitive to me um trying to get that many people out I would go with 50% if it's after 11 then you know instead of 100% then 100% if they don't clean it up then the rest they lose if they don't clean up what any thoughts on that I like there's policy current policy current policy all right we just need to put a little teeth in and I think it's it's a very it's very subjective I don't know if we've I don't I don't know if we've even held them back well it sounds like if the cops are coming we had a few times or at least they weren't out of there don't know if we did that's what I'm saying so sounds like we've had opt um circumstances that may have led to that but it maybe didn't happen we have have we kept deposits yes okay for tardiness too I believe we have yeah yep okay he's just not back there don't talk just not all right just keep it the way it is all right I've said my piece thank you so ISO move we Chang the fee structure to what was discussed yeah we have to move that I thought there was more is there more is there more okay no no I won't ask I was just wondering why only two food trucks in the policy that's the only other question I have about the the policy oh I like that question away from that we well arts and culture and Parks and Rec had how many out there on the street this is a private event so housing seats 50 people I pick a number well how he has a food truck event correct so that would this is for private this is rental I see if I in my in my interpreting that right but that's 50 inside you could have more people outside a lot of you know that time too so I mean it's bring the neighbors to get some food truck I go track I mean do we see a is there a reason why that's in there limit of two I am not familiar with the origin of that particular policy statement was that in there from before then I was wondering where it came from it's been in the it's been in the policy it's not new okay I know for food trucks have been becoming more and more popular over the years where people minimums that they have to meet too though so I mean you're not going to have four food trucks with a 50 person group you have to meet like a two grand minimum oh I have no idea I look like it but I haven't had a food truck yeah yeah I just don't know if that's really um you got is there a number that you're more comfortable with no El I mean as long as like traffic is you know manageable and things like that it's maintains safety whatever I think it's fine to I mean I don't I mean I think also food vendors have multiple sites too and so I mean it it's hard to get a lot sometimes too so I can't imagine more than 10 but probably more like three four I I again there's no I I can't put a number on it I agree yeah I don't more food the better for me invite me to your party sh okay my my only thought is with every food truck there's a generator these are in residential neighborhoods are we comfortable with four generators outside someone's house until 11: p.m. oh you were you were on your game tonight that's a good question any thoughts on that I would also be comfortable saying leaving it at two without adding the caveat more upon special request or uh something that can be reviewed by City staff I'm howy is the one because you live by that park that's I'm thinking of Casey you're thinking of howy and you're right it's just it's just exactly it's just everybody has everybody's around the park there that's a good point have we ever asked have we ever had any requests for more than two not to my knowledge um staff sorry have they even asked ever about our I would have to check with staff to see what the stats are well I I liked it I heard about the generators then all of a sudden wait a minute buzz kill but absolutely that we could just say you know more than two to reviewed by City staff and if all the food trucks said we're okay being done by nine for this event then then we're not being a bothersome to the residents so but two in request special request or upon special request for more I mean is that so we haven't ran across a sometimes we get into things where they'll probably never hit it but I like that I'm open say it two two and then special request so if you like obviously if I want time wise I think it's going to be and I agree 100% where after you know 9:00 you got generators going and a bunch of things happening that's you know that does especially at uh at um um the other what's the name howy thank you howy park all right we good on it I don't know are you kids are you okay I'm perfect okay thank you all right do you want to give you're good be you want more trucks I want more trucks yeah I think three or four is is fine and and then um I'd hate to just yeah it's another step for staff to to do it Beyond two what staff think staff thank you I honestly don't know how much of an issue it is um so I'm comfortable with the approach of keeping the current policy and seeing if there are extra requests monitoring that and potentially approving if they agree to If It Up by 9:00 if they ask how many food trucks we can explain we have two unless there's so we can add that in the policy all right you've been waiting go ahead is so move we update the park policy do the things discussed second council member Norby second council member Cole all those in favor say I I I against wow I think I'm grayer I'm older thank you everybody that was a good conversation I think we got a lot uh lot taken care of and we we got it done that's the main thing is to get it done so we can not have these people wait so thank you all and I think we've got a good base going forward for next year perfect yeah thank you all next up item C is discussion of 2024 fee schedule turn that back over to Brandy so this is just a continuation of our last um our last meeting where we went through the items in the fee schedule the discussion points that we talked about at the last meeting have been modified in this fee schedule in addition I have updated the building permit and inspection fees to reflect the proposed contract with Rum River and I'm happy to go over any questions that you might have at the fee schedule or if you'd like me to go specifically Into The Rum River contract and how it differs from our current fee schedule anybody have a preference yeah we can start there um I have some other things okay yeah thank you comparison okay and we also still have them in um in our audience if we need additional clarification I think they burned half of their budget here tonight riveting conversation back can talk about the budget it was easy yeah where you going Dan that's enough that's enough so car Carrie Carrie with rum whever that is was very kind enough to um provide a comparison of our fees compared to what we have now versus what they propose and on the screen well first of all building permits are based on the value of the project so what they have provided is a similar valued project for each of these permit types and have itemized what it would cost under our current fee schedule versus what they would charge so for a deck permit based on um the criteria that they provided we would currently be charging $292.33 one6 however included within their fee is that um inspection our inspections are charged separately under our current fee structure and so we've got those value based items um first in the Bold italic and then in the second grouping of three we have the fees that are flat fees proposed by R River and those include the re re-roofing reciting doors and exterior windows Etc and currently with um minspect and our current fee schedule the re-roofing Project based on a $20,000 value would have been $370 with r River it' be 125 um same with the fixtures 254 based on a new home that has 17 fixtures would be that current fee R Riv would charge 150 a mechanical is 65 currently 125 um with r r Rum River uh this slide shows plan review fees and some additional building permit fees such as demolition that sent and erosion control that we talked about earlier um we have fees for license lookup now and lead certification verification we're not going to be charged those fees in under our new proposed contract and then finally inspections um I think this was where I was getting getting a little confused again the 6090 I think was related to those um sediment and AR rozen control um there's no additional fee for Rem River and then the inspection rates uh for the building official is $125 per hour flat fee R River whatever inspector you get it's going to be 125 um and they had different values based on the level of Inspector you are going to have with a mpect and then finally inspections that might occur outside of business hours currently they're $75 an hour plus travel CH travel time with a minimum charge of two hours and then with Rem River they're um able to do Saturday inspections um if requested for uh no additional I I don't I might need clarification on this one um emergency requests are $150 per hour with a minimum charge of two of two hours so those are basically the broad brush changes there are some other minor nitty-gritty um minutia type changes in the fee schedule but this is kind of the big picture and I would defer to um Carrie and Andy the new building inspector if you have any specific questions about how our fees under their contract would be impacted specific to building inspection and permitting if not we can release them and then we can jump into any questions you might have for the rest of the fee schedule appreciate the Saturday that's a nice that's a nice feature I appreciate that I'm sure the emergency must be if somebody calls and need somebody out tomorrow which makes sense you don't have enough time to plan with your people and everything else so that does make sense yep exactly that type of thing where you can't get ahead of it okay great well welcome to nor St Paul appreciate it thanks everyone so I will spare going through the rest of the fee schedule unless you've got specific questions related to to the other changes I I have some questions so um I'm looking at uh let's see page two where it says event permits and you um had a policy question in regards to um National Night Out and charging for um or not charging for um those block parties so just wondering what the council's thoughts are on waving or red something changing that or keeping that um for National Night Out specifically do we want to charge $20 or or not any comments I I'm for waving that fee this is something we encourage all residents to participate in we don't want to put barriers up for that um I think that's what the fee is basically for put put the barriers to drop off set up pick up the barriers I like we only hit a couple neighborhoods that even had them I agree so remove it I I I also say wave the amount we're encouraging then what do we do about the if you want the barriers you got to pay I me like I said I agree okay sold okay see how CL this here you heard it heard it from the guy in the back row all right we'll wave that wave that Fe okay cool appreciate it thank you Randy um if you're willing can you explain what a 65% plan review May apply what that means excuse me um the plane review fee is 65% of the building permit fee so back to that original example that we had um I don't remember the numbers but if our building permit fee as the homeowner you pay $500 for your building permit 65% of that would go to the plan review I believe is how that works so the cost is still the cost is not an additional correct yep it's just a percentage that goes towards different pieces of the um broader and building permit thank you you're welcome I have a clarification for um 22 under zoning permits and planning application fees um it says design review is eliminated from the proposed 2024 fee schedule um because the commission is no longer in existence um and that would be reviewed by during the site plan review it was my understanding that the Planning Commission um has taken over the design correct components okay yeah any anything related to building exterior um or site design is going to be looked at during the site plan review process by staff and also the Planning Commission okay thank you for that clarification welcome thank you and can you [Music] um so I'm looking at event permits and park and wreck fees on um I think page 129 of the packet I'm looking at the arts and culture programming section and it has uh recreational programming that varies per event and then the pain along um at $10 per event can you clarify or differentiate those two items yeah I think we originally had a recreational fee as quote unquote varies as a catchall and as we've been able to establish those events and Define what they are to what we will be charging for them it just clarifies in the fee schedule what what we're actually charging so whenever we can have a defined rate we'd like to do that um I believe that arts and culture and potentially Park and wck could create a new event mid year before we have uh a fee in place so that is intended to be in place of that okay one reason that I hesitate to um keep the pain Along on there um is because I believe that the arts and culture commission is also looking to solicit different uh artists too so that might change a little bit that's a good point so um yeah just to keep the flexibility might be helpful um but yeah I don't know if anyone has thoughts about that I defer to you when it comes to Art I'm not an art guy so is that something you would want change or just give the Arts commission ability to wave that fee for certain things um I think I would be comfortable if the pain along was also uh part of the recreational programming at this time just in case there are changes that come along this next year um and then maybe reevaluate next year um to see if if anything has changed I see that that's that's reasonable that's good that's all I have good anybody else all right motion motion to approve the changes so moved so moved council member swe second second second council member Wong all those in favor say I hi hi all right next up is a discussion on health and dental insurance savings options turn that over Dan more options for you guys tonight so just for just for clarification on on the fees um and the changes with the park quental fees um they will all be incorporated this still need needs to be published and then brought back to City Council in 2 weeks because it has to be published for 10 days um and so in two weeks you'll have the official approval sure um of the fees and rates struct there no more discussion on to them though that's it that's right all right draw the line but we got a cool and off period so here's another discussion item and so at the end of this you'll give us we need to have directions so then we can incorporate this into the budget if there's any changes um because two weeks we have to have all of the line items and all of the budgets including um you know any other transfers that are from other budgets not the levy components to it um and so we'll have all of the budget so as we had discussed earlier and um there was um a change um for our health and dental insurance carrier from peep to United healthc Care um this resulted in a savings um and the total savings to the city is a little over $170,000 um 100 approximately $125,000 of that is in the general fund um and about $45,000 is is uh in the Enterprise funds Housing and Redevelopment and the economic development budget so with those savings we have some options um to be discussed and so I'll just quickly share that in the packet um says oh it's over here okay so I put together five different options um option um so for the other funds for the h and the Eda um um components to it my suggestion is to we'll reduce the budgets but I I wouldn't take any savings because um it doesn't have a direct Levy impact to it um what it'll end up doing is just um going into um at the end of the day fund balance um for the Enterprise funds it's not enough to change any of the rates or any of the other requests that we've put together at this point in time the one that could have an impact on something is the general fund um the savings again is $125,000 so there's five options we can reduce the levy by full by the full savings um what it would do is it would uh reduce the levy from the 88.5% um to 6.59% option number two is we can transfer the savings to the insurance fund and no Levy reduction those are two total opposites on the Spectrum option three we can reduce the one-time transfer from the electric fund to the streets of 1.1 1 million by the approximately 125,000 no Levy Change option four we can transfer partial savings 59,000 um to the insurance fund and reduce the levy from 8.5 to 7.5% or option five uh transfer the partial savings the 59,000 to the insurance fund and reduce annual electric transfer of $300,000 by the $65,000 again resulting in no Levy change um if you have some other option that's a variation of these we could certainly look at those too um I think part of our discussion when we changed from peep um to um United healthc Care um which was a very true statement and one that I truly believe in is that the savings um that resulted here um from this is due to a very low claim rate in the prior 12 months I do not believe that's going to be the same claim rate we're going to have in the next year so what's going to end up resulting more than likely is we're going to see that big increase again now from my finance director's position I look at it as this is what's on the table for next year and we kind of looked at some of this in one of our budget discussions we're making a commitment which I believe is the right um commitment to make for infrastructure so we're starting off 2025 budget already with a 3% Levy increase we're going to have some sort of Union increase all of our contracts are up at the end of 2024 so we're not going to know what those are in 2025 I'm not even going to speculate to what that could be and then we're going to have some other increases in in just our our general accounts so we're going to already be at a certain percentage what happens if this reverses itself all the way back and all of a sudden we're up another 2% on top of it we could easily be seeing ourselves approaching that double digit Levy increase um so I'll just give my recommendation the rest of each conversation um for city council and in your final decision to me I like option number three we've had comments about the transfer from the electric fund um it has no Levy change it stays within our Levy let's reduce that $1.1 million transfer by this approximate $125,000 and call it a night open for questions and comments suggestions so number three talk it's a one-time transfer so um council member schweer that $125,000 will still be in our Levy so when they when and if if and when the premiums go back up to let's say what's in our budget currently today we've already got the levy money there taken care of it so you'd take the correct me if I'm wrong you take the 125 we'll say just rounding it from Electric fund to put it in the insurance no I I wouldn't transfer to the Insurance Fund what I would do is instead of transferring the $1.1 million from the electric fund into it goes into the maintenance Street Maintenance fund instead of doing that I would reduce that so it would be approximately $975,000 that would be transferred instead of the $1.1 million transfer it still holds our Levy at the 8.5% that we're currently at we've just gone through truth and Taxation and the levies are already there because this is only a one time this isn't on a continual basis then we still have that $125,000 in Levy um and it's the levy component that's of worry um that it would still be available we're not going to get that 2% increase if it goes back to where it's at does that make sense so 2025 comes along and there's an in increase do we pull that out of the electric fund because it's like a placeholder or how does that work um it is already in your base it's in your base so um because what's the difference between option three and option two where you're transferring the savings into the Insurance Fund yeah that was the piece I had was looking for Clarity on what's the what is the definition of insurance it's pack it was like a savings account it's a it's a it's another fund um because the Insurance Fund is an internal service fund um it it's the same mechanism it it again doesn't reduce your Levy but the money would go into the Insurance Fund itself we certainly can do that too um I was just throwing option number three out there because there has been discussion about the electric fund um if there's some sort of concern about that this just reduces it to some degree but again the choice is totally up to you my recommendation more than anything is not to reduce the Levy right and I mean I agree with you you're going to see an increase next year in your benefits it's United he Healthcare is going to look at you and be like this is fantastic um and then whatever you have for the city not you specifically have for claims they're going to increase you so I would easily say You're Gonna you're right prepare for that increase um I understand the concern with the electric fund I mean but regardless you're still going to need to pay the insurance so for for me I look at option two as being the best option so would option two be like a health savings account like I have at work so I take that amount of money and I put it in there for when I need it next time then if we put it in the Insurance Fund um well because it's there to use for insurance when it goes up to pull back out absolutely um it's in its own funds so what it what it does is let's just say for sake of conversation let's say it go up and it's double this amount well then you still will be there's no Levy increase you've already got the 125 plus you can take from fund balance of the $125,000 that you've put in there for this year so it's a double it's it it it by far it's protecting you the most as far as any increases for insurance but also for employees you're also protecting your employees so you don't have a higher cost to the employee no the way the union contracts read they're very clear that's why they get a savings and and that's where we kind of had a little bit of a discussion onto that after the the change from peep to United Healthcare the union contracts spell it out MH and they say for single coverage whatever the change is increased or decreased the change is that the employee picks up 10% the employer picks up 90% And for family it's 802 or 2080 um so they they get the savings um from the premiums and just like last year they picked up 10 and 20% of the increase um that we had so it's so it's really just focusing on the city Side to it and making sure that we're positioning ourselves in a way that we don't get a hit um and increasing our Levy especially after the fact that you went with a propose at 8.5 it's been published with the truth and Taxation we've had the hearing we virtually have had no comment um from our res residents regarding that 8.5 and again it's in line with what we're seeing other cities and towns at that are slightly over that 10% Levy amount thing I like about the option two is like families do you know they have an envelope for vacation an envelope for car insurance envelope for that we're putting it in our envelope because we know we're going to need it for insurance someday absolutely so it's not like it just goes into a big fund and you know it's okay we know it's coming yep we're going to put it in there so then we pull that out and it doesn't get taken for anything else absolutely can't be taken unless city council took action to to move it somewhere else where I don't think that that's going to be happening I just like because then for anybody looking at it they can look and say oh okay that makes sense they took that they put it in there for insurance we know insurance is going to go up we got it there it makes me feel more comfortable y makes me feel more comfortable too I I like that I like that option so I'm hearing um at least three um C Cole um likes said a word body language tells me council member it's 8:35 is past my bedtime uh but kind of want to hear from everybody if if that kind of seems to be the the better option option number two transferring the savings to the Insurance Fund with no Levy reduction do I hear a motion we know it's coming it's not like it's be a guy I mean it's it's like your it's like your cable bill you move to somebody else and you're the best friend then the next time around they Jack you up to you have to go to another spot I mean it's it's not going to be a surprise and the biggest driving factor to it is is that our percentage of claims in comparison was was very low that's why it drove these rat just the perfect circumstances to get that amount to us absolutely yeah I suppose that would be the most responsible so we can't put the 125 just added into the streets too we we certainly could add it to the streets that's definitely an option not not right now I think um it would have been an [Laughter] option personally I like option number three one of my concerns about our budgeting process is I believe in the paperwork that Dan gave us is in the 5 to 10 year expect or I'm sorry 5 to seven year expectancy um electric is going to ask for 3.5 to $5.8 million um I believe that this 1.1 transfer out of electric is to use a phrase I've used before is kicking the can down the road um that concerns me um but but I'd be I'd be okay with either option two or three I lean towards three all right body language is pretty good nice job um so both council member Wong and I live through the 50% increase a year ago um we had to table programs that we had already decided to go forward with so that we could pay for so that and you heard it it's 90% the city pays for and 80% for families so it was a large dollar amount that came upon the city to pay for I like the idea of a of an insurance fund um and we can we can always identify where that money is going to go at a later time yeah to me it's an insul IT insulates the city a little bit because our rates will go up wholeheartedly agreed um you know just because we had a whole lot of other things that that a lot of claims that drove it up a year ago MH um so I I'm that's why I like option two is that it it's there's something there to buffer the city that's been identified for when it does go up yes council member Cole you and council member Wang lived through it last year and it's unfortunately it's about the same amount that it went the opposite way which yeah so um for the other three council members uh the mayor and the other two council members um we were on the on the track of putting more money towards the streets last year um and we had to pull drastically back because the insurance premiums at the last moment we get notification that they went up significantly so option two all right sobody want to so move thank you so move council member s second second second council member Wong all those in favor say I I nay thank you thank you all right next item up item e authorized application for Metropolitan Council Environmental Services 20124 private property grant program welcome welcome M it's still the same night you know when you walked up the first time you know um we are doing the welcome good to see you thank you Mr members of the council happy to answer any questions on these items thank you I'm just uh getting back to that's page uh the inii grant program is page 35 of 158 in the packet okay thank you um so okay first of all um thank you for you know seeking grants and really um providing opportunities for our residents to um access them um I do see a a a PO a point in there that says um for private property owners meeting their M municipalities Equity Criterion the grant award may increase up to $10,000 I I'm kind of wondering what what how are we determining e equity in this situation sure Mr Mayor members of the council council member Wong so um this is a new newer program um we are all still learning about it as it goes the December 15th deadline for submission of the application and resolution is what's what's driving the timing on this I will state to the council that um individual cities do have some latitude to develop kind of how this winds up coming out to Residents and I have not seen a specific guideline from the Metropolitan Council right now in terms of exactly how to define that Equity component it may be there and it just hasn't been made obvious to the cities at this point so that's something that staff is going to lean into uh following the application process and then as I understand it the city should be finding out on December 28th or 29th in terms of how much um has been awarded to this program uh it may be uh I answered the same exact question for a different city last night I believe that defining that Equity component is either going to be um set to you know the the poverty level or from an income standpoint or possibly you know um property value versus U median or some other Benchmark that either the Met Council or the state is going to or should provide at least guidance again it is going to be up to the cities to Define kind of that program uh as it's offered to residents of each city as I understand it um you know based on I think the direction this is going to go that working with the with the city's communications director uh additional information once it's clarified once staff has some uh Clarity and probably um needing to address the council in terms of just being able to align that program um information will be posted on the city's website included in the city's uh newsletter going out to let folks know that this program is available um and then improvements to their individual sewer Services as as mentioned in the memo in terms of what is eligible there that would be performed by contractors uh proof of the cost being presented to the city and then once upon you know inspection or validation that the work has been done then that subsidy would be passed through from the city to uh the resident and then again reimbursed to the City by way of the Met Council so specific to e Equity though I think we need to do a little bit more homework uh working with a met Council folks after the award has been made um but they have stated that they're willing to double I guess that uh component for in specific instances we'll just have to understand exactly what documentation they're going to need to be able to um provide that and we'll certainly pass that through the public as well once we have that thank you that's all the questions that I had thank you can I get a motion one more question um C can you explain how on a typical residence this groundwater is entering what will be the typical use of this grant sure so one um probably the easiest to understand example um and if you read the memo there's just a little bit of background there in terms of uh groundwater or clean water getting into our s sary sewer system and that can create sech charging issues for the city system but also where the grant money is coming from while it's coming from the legislature but passed through the Met Council they are the Metropolitan council is responsible for treating all of our Wastewater right and so it creates issues for them so that's the impetus for the funding uh in North St Paul specifically compared to a lot of cities we do have high ground water and so if you can imagine an old uh clay tile Sewer Service pipe that serves a home for where everybody's waste water flows out through that pipe into our sanitary sewer Mains with which are in the street uh you know after 40 50 60 years those clay tile pipes can separate tree roots can grow into them it's gaps um modern construction is using sealed PVC pipes so it's kind of watertight from the inside out and the outside in but these older pipes are not watertight so when in the spring our groundwater level comes up where the ground is saturated because we've just had a 3-ft snow melt in you know two days or something like that all of that water can trickle into some of these cracks and crevices that are created in these service pipes and it does happen in our in our city system as well too but the Met counil has identified that um even if all the cities kind of repaired all of and modernized all of their sewer Mains in the street we're still going to have some inii on the private side coming in either through people's homes uh through their Su pump that are not uh legally connected to uh their their sanitary sewer system or otherwise just through inii coming in through the pipes so one example is for someone to uh if they see the need or they're just concerned about inii because they're being good stewards of of that sort of thing um they would either replace their sewer service with a new presumably PVC sewer service out to the main which could include trenching you know dig a hole put in a new pipe or there's uh uh and we've used this technology in the city as well to tranulis Technologies where you actually uh do a a pipe liner from the inside so you keep the Old Clay pipe but you put this new CL pipe liner on the inside you don't have to dig up as as many holes in the yard for example to do that in either situation when you're done you have a um you should have a watertight situation where even if the groundwater comes in or if we've got saturated soils that sort of thing um the water is going to stay outside rather than trickle in and you wouldn't think that that's a lot but if you add it up amongst you know 2,000 5,000 homes or the entire metropolitan area it does actually result in a lot of water that goes Downstream and can cause issues for us uh other cities and for the Met Council so this is dollars that will provide homeowners homeowners yeah assistance I I'll admit my is the clay tile house so yeah this is specific to private which is the which are the services there is a part grant program which is for the uh the public portion and I'll probably have a resolution in front of you in January or February that's a two-year-long program we've participated as long as I can remember in that program to get some money back for the uh improvements that the city does to the city system so um it's all um all coming from the legislature but just on the pr private side which is this piece this is $1.5 million allocated to the metro metro area thank you to make a motion so moved so move council member schwe second second council member Wong all those in favor say I I thank you Mr Mayor I apologize I do have to step out for a moment but by all means we'll try to behave while you're gone yeah dad's gone don't forget your popcorn all right now you're we're down to I is that right y i i are you uh yep next up item F 2024 pavement management project Professional Services proposal from WSB uh yeah thank you again for um proposing this I know that um um trying to uh get all the streets taken care of is is a big task and um I think this is a nice you know um intermediate in between the the big projects um so I'm I'm looking at the different um uh streets that are proposed uh and I'm wondering if um sidewalks and multi and bike lanes are considered in that um I and I think we talked about once it's paved that could be 20 20 30 years down the road um so we may not have another opportunity until then so I just kind of wanted to um understand a little bit more about these particular sites and and whether sidewalks and bike Lanes would pertain to them to answer yeah go ahead so the listing of streets that and we purposefully uh didn't put a map together yet but um because it it could change I guess but the bulleted streets that uh We've included um as the current scope right now is meant to fit within the the budget as included in the the CIP uh and the budget for next year as you have discussed um thus far and to be uh I think considered for approval at the next meeting um and they are as you might recall from past discussions driven by uh Quantified pavement ratings right and so in conjunction with public works and really Public Works is um directing me but uh we're we're we're trying to get at the streets that make the most sense that don't have underground utility problems but are showing some issues from a pavement and increased maintenance cost standpoint I guess um and I mentioned in the memo we could add some streets we'll kind of have to as we kind of finish the design and if we get get to the point where we think there's some additional money left in the budget we might add some in if we can to maximize that specifically your question about sidewalks it's not included in the scope right now we have talked before about when you're focused on pavement uh Rehabilitation um it's not necessarily a great opportunity it can be done but it's not always a great opportunity to go outside of the curb lines and start looking at things like sidewalks in the boulevard for example only because it can be um complicated sometimes controversial um and sometimes there's a lot of impacts with respects to moving light poles or power poles or uh cutting down trees or things like that now that's not to say and I guess I would certainly honor this proposal cost I don't think it would be a lot of extra work to do kind of a dashboard review of some of these streets to see if you know maybe there are some easy opportunities uh as I've talked or presented to the council in the past I always use the account plan is a guide guidance document in terms of where has the council or previous councils or or previous planning commissions and Commissioners kind of identified where the greatest need for those things are so that's certainly something I can represent to the council that we can include here just as a look I can report back I guess in terms of just the scope of the project though I'd represent that um it's not a uh an easy inclusion for the design and that sort of thing out for sidewalks because it can be kind of complicated and um uh expensive I guess with respect to adding a sidewalk and as to bike Lanes that's certainly easy and that again we can include that uh kind of review is it included are these Street segments on the comp plan or is it on Ramsey County's active transportation map uh and that's a simple striping Endeavor if we can make it work uh which doesn't add a lot of construction cost to the project so I can commit to certainly doing that and we can report back to the council in terms of what we're seeing or what we're finding and maybe there's some recommend recommendations or if there's something that really does not lend itself you know I can report back to the Council on that yeah yeah that'd be great and if you'd take a look at you know if it makes sense and if it aligns with um the existing plans yeah I just would hate to miss an opportunity understood yeah we can do that and I get that and when I was when we first started looking at this and this is the first year were doing this so when I was first looking at doing this I was trying to get as much of the roads covered as I you know or to buy us that time that we need because our roads are so bad you know all over so it's definitely something like Morgan said the bike Lanes that's something with striping you know if the roads warant that if they're wide enough we can definitely do that the sidewalks you know when we go and plan for the following or you know two years down the road for this you know it's something if we're looking at a a road that warrants that maybe that's something you know that we can you know check out and and at least bring you the cost of what that might do or how much less road we have to do because we're putting that sidewalk but like you said if it's going to if we're looking at trying to get by 15 years with some of these I I you know definitely understand what you're saying you know we're not going to have a sidewalk there I totally get that and if nothing the investigation now I think would inform like when the street does get reconstructed that's the the good opportunity because you can move the curve lines or you can uh account for different things and so anything that we find now can be you know included for future efforts I guess as we move forward and just so you guys kind of have an understanding of kind of how we're looking at it Randy and myself and Morgan when we're doing these you know we're not going in and doing full curb Replacements we're going out and walking um these roads that we're going to do to see kind of what percentage of that curb we're going to have to replace and there might be some that have some little cracks and stuff in them that we're leaving but I I think Randy what I think he walked the LA just the a couple just this week a couple of the roads that we were looking at doing and I think it's around that 20% is roughly how much curb would get replaced in these areas so if you guys get questions down the road when we're doing these projects you know it's not a reconstructor we're not going in there if there's a known problem where there's water sitting or something you know we're going to do what we can to do that but without tearing all the curbs we would not be able to repair all of it that the goal with this is to you know get as much yeah preservation pres you know so we're not going back and black topping some of these roads two or three times in a in a summer or fill in potholes all right that's all the questions I have thank you any other questions not do I have a motion so moved move council member s second second council member Norby all those in favor say I I I thank you and item G 11th Avenue sidewalk Improvement project uh Professional Services proposal by WSB thank you for staying I got call B when Rel late to work that's okay stay here um again thank you for applying for the ACT AC of transport ation infrastructure Grant um I'm excited to see the sidewalk go in um and uh I really think it's a compliment to uh the work on aerial um that was done um I think there's a lot of opportunity uh with 11th um just because uh let's see the Metro transit's looking at the purple line on on Whitebear and then uh Ramsey County is also looking at redoing parts of mcnight so I think there's a a great opportunity so thank you for seeing that and when we we were doing Ariel with the city of Maplewood Maplewood put in additional sidewalks between Ariel and white Bears on the North side so it's kind of a nice connection and nice timing for it all yeah it really did come um yeah come uh to fruition um I guess like uh one question would be uh what does That Sidewalk look like is it wide is it like the trail that you see along mcnight um I'm just thinking also you know the answer this I don't well it's not designed yet but um uh we so in 2014 or 2015 the council at that time discussed this exact sidewalk um in addition to some other things because in 2015 uh I think it was 2015 was when 11th Avenue was overlaid between mcnight and Ariel um so they had uh a discussion about some options I think ultimately the sidewalk was left out uh for lack of available funding at that time so it's kind of nice now that we've got it the construction at least is 100% funded uh at that time and I think this is where we'll start the criteria from a design standpoint it needs to be wide enough for uh City snow removal from end to end and so a minimum width there is six feet um we'd be looking at concrete as a uh you know as as opposed to like an asphalt Trail it' be a concrete sidewalk it would be set back from uh the curb line some amount based on how much room we have there but for snow storage in between the sidewalk and the um and the curb line maybe five or six feet if we can get that much snow storage I think that would be good and there would be some coordination with Metro Transit specifically on the bus stop that's mid block there and then also there's a bus stop uh westbound bus line on the North side 11th Avenue at uh at Ariel Street as well too so we'd want to work with them I know in working with them in the the past they've got standards for how wide and where the concrete is and if they're going to put a permanent shelter there or not we'll just kind of have to figure that out working with those folks um but that's about as much detail as I can give you right now in terms of what it might look like generally straight from end to end sure yeah I I I'm wondering if there's there's room for a bike lane um just because mcnight connects to the Gateway Trail right there so um yeah we can look at that and I think maybe a bike lane might be on our comp plan for 11th AV I know that Maplewood does not have one to connect to um and there isn't one on the on 11th on the other side of mcnight either but there's an asphalt Trail yeah yeah but um knowing that you know I guess another option would be if we can fit it in the budget if we can do an eight foot wide facility that's off street that would be a width that would be acceptable um to carry multiple different kinds of non-motorized users meaning Walkers and bikers right um in lie of a bike lane I mean people use bike Lanes differently than they use Trails or or facilities that are off the road and people that are comfortable riding on the road will use a bike lane and people that are not comfortable want to be off the road so I think we can certainly um I I mean I think that the amount dedicated by mindat for the construction is is good it's it's fairly healthy if I can use that word and so if we can do a somewhat wider facility off Street and fit it within the budget I think that's completely reasonable to do we can look at a bike lane however 11th Avenue is a state aid route and they they've got some pretty strict standards in terms of Lane widths and so we would have to just see if something can be fit in there and knowing that again this is a sidewalk project not a pavement project so we would have to consider how we restripe is it as simple as just adding a bike lane to the North side or do we have to move ship shift everything over to make it fit which makes it much more complicated so but we can take a look at that certainly yeah I just think it would it fits well with the active part of it so but yeah thank you um that answers all my questions right so we have a sidewalk on the south side of leth now the north side we have that great sidewalking area that goes up to the park what in my big concern is we're offering places to walk but how are we going to make sure when you got to cross four lanes of traffic are we going to be putting some kind of a a I mean you're inviting people to take the sidewalk but you can't uh run across the streak if somebody stops in the first Lane doesn't necessarily mean they're going to stop at the second lane correct that's a excellent question Mr Mayor and uh we have already purchased the city has already purchased four signs or two uh two locations right two location two locations yeah corre so for both of those um crosswalks that are uh in line with the bus stop so one of them being at the uncontrolled intersection of Ariel and 11th Avenue so there's not a stop sign there right but but there is a cross walk and there is a bus stop there and then also mid block um uh just North well I'll just call it t Target just north just across from Target uh there's a a marked crosswalk there with the bus stop on the North side and the plan is waiting until all the concrete is done so we don't put it in the wrong place but to use this signage that has been purchased by the city already install it probably by City forces still but as I understand it they're solar power or no are they are they wired into the grid they are solar powered okay so they don't need to be we don't need to do a lot of uh complicated things we'll have to make sure that uh the the push buttons for the signs meaning that there's flashing yellow lights that go out that warn traffic that let them know that somebody's intending to cross the street there um they have to be handicap accessible so the buttons have to be in the right place with respect to where they might be reach by someone in a wheelchair um but that is all it wouldn't be included in the Construction contract but it would be coordinated to get those things in right after the work by the contract that's great to hear I just want to make sure because we're you know we're we're putting these beautiful sidewalks in four lanes of traffic is is pretty tight so I want to make sure that uh there's at least a couple spots because there's long ways to go from mcnight all the way down to wiper Avenue get a light so I'm glad there's a couple spots in between that thank you Ron on a project like this am I correct in assuming that before it starts you'll go through and identify um diseased and trees that need to be taken down so they can be done before we put the new brand new sidewalk in yes we we definitely go through and Che do that stuff so awesome y make sure that's a perfect opportunity for us to do that yep okay thank you thanks can I get a motion so move so move council member Wong I'll second second council member swe all those in FA favor say I I hi thank you much appreciate it guys thank you um oh really just got my second wind all right reports from city manager and departments um PD was doing interviews today they had a couple of uh they did Zoom meetings I had one from I believe North Carolina and one from North Dakota um Public Works we unfortunately had our first water main break of the Christmas or the winter year I guess as you say um up on furnace Furness they took care of that uh believe they've finished up your street sweeping for the second time around the city um we still are looking for a city mechanic unfortunately we've had uh it's been posted for what six weeks now is that correct yes total yep it it's pretty tough with that and it's starting to weigh on us a little bit but uh we're still hopeful um you guys got your uh front end loader for the winter season to use as the plow backup um and they're having their uh Department of Health is coming out from doing their well inspection their yearly well inspection um fire department has their uh maintenance for their trucks run yeah run fire department does testing on their trucks uh um the Mechanicals of their trucks once a year so that's in the process uh electri department has theirs they do not only mechanical but dialectric testing on the trucks once a year so that's getting lined up for January um looks like the electric Department also the frost charges are now in place for any kind of underground services that are going on and uh they're also doing their yearly testing hotti testing for dialectric and uh we'll be starting their inventory here pretty soon won't be long the Auditors will be here so that's all I have thank you very much reports from Council commissions and committees council member Norby sir the Planning Commission is two days from now um and I would like to take this opportunity to thank Eric Bana for his years of service um and that's going to be one of the topics of this Planning Commission two days from now thank you one uh tomorrow is the arts and culture commission meeting here in or here at 6:30 um and I think that's all thank you Parks and Recreation met last month we discussed a community garden and started uh contemplating where we would like it one of the spaces is uh that they're visiting is the Country Club Space um for discussion of course uh we also discussed the next processes for next year what what next year looks like so beginning that planning uh we will not have a meeting in December and um again I also would like to take the opportunity to thank Ry Alvarez for his service uh he has decided not to renew for another year so or for another term term thank you that's it for me the next actually the next meeting is in January 2024 all right uh the December Eda meeting has been cancelled as well uh so the next Eda meeting will be in January uh we do have a number of folks that will be stepping down off from pretty some pretty long ten years so my assumption is sometime in the month of January one of the two meetings we will uh recognize all those who have served the Eda and retire and thank them for their service definitely thank you can I give you one more quick update um initially we were thinking that the the next meeting was going to be held for um the commission chairs were going to come in and give you early updates that's been set up for the first and second uh meeting in January just to give you that update great look forward to it General business council member Norby um again I would just like to uh thank um Rachel for doing the North St Paul Christmas Tree project um if you don't know about it it is one of the most wonderful things I've ever um had the privilege of knowing about and they are still looking for some donations if um the holiday spirit moves you um as far as I'm concerned it's one of the best causes out there for local help thank you CER one yeah I just wanted to um talk a little bit about uh our last meeting and um how um we had a discussion around accountability particularly with traffic safety and so um I will continue to ask um and gain clarification um so just to let you all know all right appreciate it I um don't have a lot attended holiday hop with the girls this past weekend it is a lovely event it was beautiful outside there were a lot of people high desire for Santa Claus uh the Grinch showed up at Max um visited just about every business it was it was great so I encourage everyone to attend it next year and that's it thank you sounds Miracle uh I too went holiday hopping on Saturday um I had the opportunity to get into multiple businesses talk to a lot of the business owners uh a lot just a lot of good positive momentum going on in the city uh a couple of the new businesses that I that I stepped in at were very elated with um you know how they're s how their sales have been progressing uh one business said that they've overachieved have already overachieved what their their plan was uh and they're looking forward to next year um yeah I mean stepped into I places I'd never been to never been to the Boys Scout Museum Scout Boys Club Museum I've never been in there it's interesting very nice I didn't make I didn't make the uh the Christmas ornament though I thought I was probably out of the age limit I'm looking forward for the pinewood derby they were talking about they're going to be doing yeah other than that I have nothing more okay well thank you um there was in the in the newsletter where the mayor was I was ringing the bell for the Salvation Army on Saturday so I ran into a couple of our Council a couple of our residents uh Sue springborn and John schal so I saw both of them up there when I was ringing the bell was a it was a great event it was nice to see people and the weather was good last time I did that our boys were real little so it was uh it was kind of fun to get back out there again and do that so I appreciate that that was good as you can see we're speaking a little bit clearer tonight and I want to thank uh Carrie for um all she did with behind the scenes with the the bad motherboard and the weight and now it comes up to us to and there's every one of us on our on our microphone says speak into the mic please with an exclamation point so not not everyone no that's true a mayor who has always said is loud I can't believe I had one but um I'm doing better when I sit back in my chair and I'm trying to do better at that too and I want to apologize during the um during our Workshop we had people from the audience again um speaking as far as that so I know that really screws up people that are listening from home so I just wanted to apologize and I'm going to work really hard on that because I know there's a lot of people that watch this online so I'll if anybody speaks I will stop them have them come up so my apologies I will do a better job of that so we can make sure everybody can hear and uh we get more out of the meeting so all right if that's it then we can call for adjournment so moved so moved council member Wong second second council member swe all those in favor say hi hi hi thank you all let's get carried to bed yeah you are