hours Dave no oh we have the right with enough numbers right welcome everybody Oh three of you up there through this planning board meeting Wednesday April 18th 2018 first item on our agenda is a roll call tonight we have Lisa buck we have Christmas when Sarah we have Jed McIntosh myself Phil rock we've got Jeremy Chubbuck Dave Thompson we've got John Beckett and we've got Mike Costello on the end so next item is acceptance of the agenda thank you can I have a second second you have any discussion additions very good all those in favor of the agenda as presented is unanimous next up approval of the minutes of our meeting on March 21st 2018 still moved very good thank you very good any edits it's good work thanks Kate hearing none all those in favor of the minutes as presented very good next up we have one public hearing this evening it is an amendment to the following section sections of the land use ordinance 18 - 118 - 31 18 - 106 18 - 140 and 18 - 177 - number one to find drive-through facility drive-through restaurant and menu board and number two to make drive-through restaurant and allowed use in the village commercial district with Planning Board site plan review and approval and number three require additional site plan review criteria for a drive-through facility in the village commercial district so I understand Evan where you're just going to give us a brief summary and then Dave was gonna jump in even yeah I didn't say I'd be breathing yes I'll give it I will give us home anything just one thing okay yeah this I caught up on this Jana had worked with Dave on this I've caught up on it and provided the memorandum to you and reviewed the draft amendments so I'll give you a sort of a technical summary and leave it to Dave to discuss the reasoning the rationale why this comes before you now right now in our ordinance drive-thru facilities of all kinds are allowed including drive-through restaurants the term drive-through facility is not defined we have a definition of drive-in restaurant which presumably includes drive-through but also includes walk-up stands and you know the kind of old 1950 stand where you could drive in and be served by people on rollerskates right now drive-thru facilities of all kinds are allowed throughout town with the exception of drive-through restaurants which are not allowed in the village of commercial districts drive-through restaurants are allowed in the commercial one district where I see throughout time - I'm talking about through the commercial areas of town so drive-through facilities including drive-through restaurants are allowed in the commercial one district commercial two district and drive-through facilities excluding restaurants are allowed in the village commercial district so we have at least three in the village commercial district all associated with banks this amendment would and there are some standards very specific the drive-thru facilities in our current ordinance that would apply to any proposal that had a drive-through window this proposal the essence of the proposal would allow drive to fonts as well as other drive to facilities in the village commercial district under certain circumstances ie meeting certain heightened standards both hiding performance standards and heightened standards of review when a project comes to site plan review specifically it would for the first time give a definition to drive-through facility drive-through facilities are talked about in the performance standards but they're not that is not a given as a definition and it's not actually listed as a use it's just I guess assumed that it would be an accessory to restaurant a bank dry cleaners or whatever might be using it and also creates a definition of drive to a restaurant which is a subset of that but very specific to eating places it then establishes that drive-through restaurants would be allowed in the village commercial district as well as currently in the commercial one in the commercial two district it then set some standards for that it would only for example it would only be allowed in the village commercial district if it was on a lot of at least thirty thousand square feet Janna had done some research and found that the drive-through restaurants that we have in town now and she disciplined dairy sources research as well find that that's typical because that's what's required to a comedy ride through Windows the queueing of cars without drop blocking parking areas or or going out into the public way so two thirty thousand-square-foot minimum lot size in the village of commercial district the minimum lot size and c1 and c2 just call really exceeds that as a matter of course they set some heightened standards for drive-through facilities any of any kind banks restaurants dry cleaners pharmacies any kind of facility that might have a drive-thru in the village of commercial district and those standards are in addition to the minimum wide area that there would be automatically a traffic analysis required right now under our performance standards of site plan review ordinance atrophic analysis is only triggered if there is a if according to standard references a certain level of peak hour traffic occurs or is expected to occur with that use this in this case in the village of commercial district of traffic analysis would be required for any use that require that proposes any kind of drive to facility regardless of the level of traffic that is projected to be associated with that use and that the traffic analysis is keyed to what main department transportation would require under traffic movement permit for a you know a relatively straightforward project which is an analysis of the traffic impacts in the immediate vicinity of the of the land use that's got the drive to facility looking at the exits looking at site distances looking at how much traffic will be going out of the road what the delays would be our learning safety concerns and things like that if the plan board felt it was necessary based on a particular situation it could also require an enhanced analysis that would look at traffic impacts what we call downstream of the land use that is at intersect at segments of roadway and intersections that might be a block or two away because you know that that's where the traffic is headed and could be overloading that downstream those downstream facilities it would also require a queuing analysis to assure that the stacking of cars at a drive-through window not be blocking parking lots the ability of people are getting in and out or coming out into a public way and it would continue to look at things like a pedestrian impact impacts of circulation both in the site and adjacent to the site the one thing that's not here that probably should be here and I think probably was intended to be here but didn't for whatever reasons didn't make it into this draft is a standard that that talks about the location of the drive-through windows often they are not allowed within the the this the side of the building that faces a public way so it would have to be on the side or rear away from a public way there are other standards that already would apply under normal site plan reviews and performance standard reviews things like landscaping buffers signage limitations in the village commercial and the commercial to zone there are always some minimal design standards architectural design standards the roofs have to be pitched the this size of the footprints limited the type of siding is specified it can't be big blank walls there have to be some openings doors window kind of openings along the facade so those standards already have been in our ordinance for a long time and they've been applied for example up on Park Street for Bangor Savings Bank Roma Joe's and so forth in plans Penobscot Valley dermatology is a good example of how that standard those standards of design were applied so it's a combination of existing standards plus heightened standards basically to allow drive-through restaurants in the village of commercial districts as they are allowed elsewhere but with standards of review and so forth heightened the this comes to you because it's a proposed ordinance amendment the either I think was the conference plan committee but it might have been the Community Development Committee of the council referred it to the Planning Board for your review and recommendation as it always does your as always the first thing a Planning Board should be looking at is the consistency of the proposal with the comprehensive plan and as those of you who were involved in conference a plan know this issue this opportunity but never arose in the two years that the plan was being prepared so it wasn't specifically addressed so there's nothing specific about drive-through restaurants in the village commercial district there are two issues and slash opportunities and policy statements that relate to the village of commercial district in downtown and a whole bunch of strategies that don't relate specifically to this but those two one of them talks about the evolution of downtown away from what we think of as a neighborhood shopping district you know with grocery stores and hardware stores and and so forth into more of a entertainment restaurant food drink financial services kind of Center which is the evolution of many many downtown's in Maine and elsewhere and that the there there is as a policy statement supporting those things that would continue to strengthen downtown as a place that people want to be because there are things here that they want to come to as a destination as an activity center and then they're a bunch of strategies really to that but that's the general policy the second has to do with the village commercial district and allowing the district to grow but trying to sure that it stays true to its a compact walkable scale and its village architecture and character so you know when you extended the village commercial district for staff last year for exam that was when did you looked at and in fact was one of the strategies we talked about in the conference of plan so those are the two overall policy statements there's they're meant to be large in general or broad in general but you would weighed this proposal against those two things as part of your consideration and then of course you would be looking at the standards themselves are they sufficient to meet the purpose is it it's a desirable tonight you can hear from what the public has to say you can hear what the town Dave representing the town as the applicant has to say you can decide you can discuss it debate it as you wish you can decide to hold it over before you make a recommendation you could set aside to ask us for more information that would help you make that recommendation you can decide to act tonight either to recommend it recommend it with additional changes or to recommend that it not be adopted by the council thank you so a just an initial question in your summary or date someone whoever put it together mentioned that nobody really understood why 20 years ago that they never included this does is there any institutional knowledge from counselors or whoever to understand why this might have been excluded in the village commercial and c1c2 I was involved in this discussion with the council so I came late but I haven't heard and I've not seen any written documentation I I went through the older conference a plan and there was no specific discussion of it as I said it's not downtown Street these both ways you know it we allow drive throughs in our towns just not for restaurants in downtown any other use could have a drive-thru is just a restaurant can't as of now I suspect that might have to do perhaps with the idea that peak traffic flows are greater associated with a drive-through restaurant than with a drive-through Bank for example and therefore might have some greater impact on traffic it might have to do with the character of the downtown or the worry that there might be too many franchise mm-hmm that would franchise kind of facilities that would come in that have their own architectural style their own sort of mold the way they build and that might not fit in with what they want for signage and what they want for design and it might fit not fit in with what downtown was like but I'm not sure but we can continue our search I haven't talked to any of the councillors who might or might have been here at the time for all I know I fact I didn't I haven't looked at the ordinance pre nineteen ninety nine it might have also not been allowed even back as early as the seventies and eighties I don't know okay thank you so unless there's any other questions we could allow Dave to give us a summary on top of what Evan had to say do we want to do that before we we can hit him with questions you're up good evening folks I'm Dave Milan I'm the director of community development which means I oversee the offices of economic development as well as code enforcement and planning and assessing so this is sort of my wheelhouse that this ended up getting brought up and before I start with my comments I just add to Evans I'm enjoying my 40th year in public servus this year and I would say that that the it's pretty traditional for ordinances is back as the 80s that I've been involved with them when they were originally in inception of them there's that they prohibited drive thru drive through in town areas I again I can think of multiple communities that I'm associated with of course Evans on more on top of that that that's pretty common that I think back then that that was a prohibited use of then you know things change over time and sometimes in some areas that it's it can be okay in some areas it can't be okay so it's I would again likewise talking with the council nobody was really aware could convertible eyes why it was that way it's just always been that way type thing and while we're here tonight why this you know even got brought up in the first place is that again as the economic development director in the last 18 20 months we've had two businesses in the village commercial district two properties in the village commercial district that have come up for sale that were both businesses that had existing drive-through windows that the the the asset to the building itself it was already there so as the economic development director I was trying to figure out how do we what strategies can we use to get that you know highest and best return and be able to repurpose those buildings how can we do that in a you know in a timely fashion at the same time keeping the the flavor and the look and feel of of Orono that's consistent with the comprehensive plan so of those buildings I would say that one they both sold and one of them continued to was the People's Bank building as a continued to be used as a for that purpose so it that one didn't seem to impact it as much the former Camden National Building was the other one so again we looked at how do we how do we you know repurpose those those assets and and make them more you know make them value begin to the town to the community and so the first thing we would I did is we looked at the you know that the comprehensive plan and says what is what is it that that we can what is it that we want to achieve what is it that the community wants to achieve in the village commercial district and then what its standing in the way of being how it will able to allow that to happen and as Evan said in the comp plan it talks about specifically for downtown downtown or Lowe's long term transition from a neighborhood commercial district to a specialty district of restaurants specialty goods stores small offices and financial services was identified with the town strategy was to continue to invest in the infrastructure business development and marketing of downtown as a center of economic activity and a destination for goods services and entertainment in addition the second part of that as he so eloquently put it is that the town will also assure the ability for our our downtown to grow in a compact walkable manner building on its village architecture and character so the question became is how do we what uses can those facilities be what can they be used for that would still fit into that that into those those definitions are those that guidance and the one thing that was I found little strange is that drive throughs in in a as a general rule were permitted it was an allowable use in the downtown in the village commercial district it was simply restaurants themselves that were for prohibited and so I needed to be able to look at that and say okay what how does that how does that fit how does that what does that work with so for example a convenience store is allowed so you could have a convenience store in the village commercial with a drive-through window because it's an allowable use and the drive-through window by its by its nature is okay so what is that that what's the difference of an impact of a convenience store whether drive-through window versus a restaurant with a drive-through window well again the issue is traffic and so when and when Jana and I first started you know tackling this to look to see how can we how can we meet those the goals of the comprehensive plan whilst by while making the a review process that will clearly identify what uses would not have a negative impact on that in this district and and I say a negative impact meaning how is it going to deal with traffic flow that walkability the you know the other things that we hold precious to in any downtown that you're you know trying to you know maintain and so we we begin by looking at language that could potentially allow the rest the restaurant used to be a the drive-through window with a restaurant I'll make it an allowable use but put the emphasis on the standard rather than on the use for and what I'm trying to say is look at what the impact is going to be on the traffic what's it going to be an impact on the the walkers look at that at that impact rather than the use itself because I would argue that there are a lot of uses out there that could be potentially a negative towards you know towards those issues that doesn't isn't singled out by being a restaurant and so then we looked at well what what places in town would even in the village commercial district what places would even wouldn't even make sense well let's look at the ones that currently have drive-through windows and see and see what the what's the common denominator there so we looked at that drive-through window the businesses you know at the you see you credit union at the at the the two other banks downtown we also looked at what you know look at Wendy's in and you know Burger King and Dunkin Donuts what do they all have in common and what we found was is that all of those properties are on much larger Lots than and then a then a lot of other non drive-through businesses which makes sense because you've got a lot of driving going through going on well on the property itself off street within that property it makes sense that it requires more more property and so we looked at I say we Jana did a lot of this research for me that we looked at what are other communities doing are they doing minimum lot sizes are there you know other restrictions or other things that can better identify what a property might be have more stress on it than another and we came up with the you know the model of this 30,000 square feet for example Bangor as a minimum or requirement of 20,000 square feet we looked at what ours the ones that we are currently having that appear to be working then what what did they have in common and that 2/3 of an acre that 30,000 square feet seemed to be a really good rule of thumb so we said okay in the village commercial district how many Lots are there that are that that criteria and we identified by looking at them all though there's probably seven or eight nine properties that that meet that minimum lot size montt many of them were not you know feasibly they probably would you know there are a big large housing complex the chances of it have a a drive-through restaurant buying out a large residential property is probably slim and then a couple of them are in shoreline zoning again makes it a more difficult to even though it's in a general development area makes it a little more difficult and then pretty much half of them the ones that were that would meet that criteria I already had drive up Windows they're already currently being used for that so we felt that it was our testing was was meeting what we were trying to do is that we could if we limit it to the thirty thousand-square-foot minimum lot size then that means that you have the the property that you need in order to be able to create a proper traffic flow on to and off of the property so that was number one the next thing we said was again rather than trying to test whether these businesses are appropriate by the industry itself let's look at it as how it's impacting the the traffic in the area and so that's why we came up with the requirement that that this type of a use requires a traffic analysis to be done regardless of the area because frankly it doesn't matter shouldn't matter to us whether it's on Stillwater Avenue whether it's in the village commercial we still want to know what's the impact of this going to be on the area in front of the property as well as what we call upstream and downstream you know of that property and then the cueing analysis is very important as well because you need to be able to know you know what we don't want is properties that with a with any type of a drive-through window that you've got traffic backed out into the main travel way that that's impacting having a negative impact on the traveling public so it's our belief that that type of analysis will will tell you well we'll tell you a better story as to what the impact is of that scoop that business is going to be on the that area as well as those areas up streams down streams rather than whatever industry it is so if it was a convenience store where the drive-through we look at what's the impact going to be if the if the analysis shows that you're going to have traffic backed up you know half way through town in addition to a already congested time period downtown well then is that really the appropriate use for that that space and may I would argue even as the economic development director I would say that's probably not a good idea that realistic though I mean I typically don't see it pharmacies or even the bank the credit union you don't see a long queue based on what I've seen versus the Duncan drone doughnuts correct and at any location absolutely and and and I would say to you for example MDOT Maine tomorrow transportation in their queueing analysis they have a special study just for Dunkin Donuts because it's so far out of the norm that they couldn't use any standards that they have in their in their book they had they they did a queueing analysis that the one on Stillwater when we approve that and those cars still back out on Stillwater so that that model didn't work for that that approval okay well as I said I think that you it's the the quality of the of that of the study I guess is What's in question it's got to be something that that comes before the board and that the board has confidence in if you don't have proper that then I probably shouldn't be supporting it and in the last since you've been around I'm just curious I mean so we've had two people come through the bank has sold that's a bank usage so we've had one property and our however many years that this may be an issue for I'm trying to figure out why we have an ordinance revision of why this is even necessary at this time well is because as your as the the director of Community Development I was brought in to the town to say how can we streamline processes and how can we maintain the the look and feel that the the comprehensive plan identifies and and supports how do we do how can we develop develop the community and still keep that same feel and so my position has been you do that with your with your standards and your reviews - rather than simply say you know we don't like green buildings or we do like blue buildings let's just use a standard that that you can actually look at and and and agree or disagree with and that will have a give you a more that'll give you a more sensible feel of what is what the impact is going to be on on the municipality whether again it's in the village commercial or whether it's in c1 or c2 will open it up to questions in a bit and so as I said so we went to the staff went to the to the council and said here's what we think that if you want to look at options then I feel that the staff feels that a process can be put in place where the the impact can be analyzed versus simply just banning it for the sake of banning anything okay thanks Steve just one quick comment is there any mechanism a question is there any mechanism now for that one property for us if it's not an allowed use could they actually is there any way for them to for instance the building across the way for them to get acceptance other than an ordinance changed for one parcel the only two ways that could happen is if the don't change to a commercial to zone but that would probably be illegal spot zoning a spot zoning that would rise to would would fail under the spot zoning test the other would be a contract zone in which there would be negotiation between the applicant and the town Town Council make a decision but come to you for review and recommendation that would be the other that would be the other mechanism as you know I we've got several contractors owns in Orono my you know my feeling about them from the past that I don't think there should be a proliferation of them or you know so that we don't have a hundred boutique zones all throughout the town which kind of then dilutes the purpose of zoning and creating equitable opportunities that like uses and like things you know you know but that's that's not to say this couldn't be this might be it's meant for relatively unique situations and if that were the property that needed something it might be considered a unique situation given that it's a facility with an existing drive-through facility and you know you could you and the council could lovers and staff they look very specifically at that in combination with the property owner the African okay thank you question for Dave before will allow the public hearing questions and bit but so right now there is no specific individual that were property that saying I want to do this it's just you want to kind of have it as a bullet in your arsenal so to speak so that if someone wanted to there was a property that needed to be used and someone wanted to use it for that purpose it was a tool you could use I want I'm not gonna speak for any particular property owner but I would just simply say is is that I certainly have had conversations with you know several property owners who are redeveloping their their the properties I would but the answer to your question for me is is that I was we were looking at it before either one of those when those two properties became on the market I started looking at how how because I was actually out you know beating the bushes trying to find buyers for it so that so I was already looking at that it would open up the possibilities but I know there's no active project that says hey I want to do this you know so that's driving this so to speak it's just more of a general we think this would be a good idea well as I said as a as me just say to you as a as your economic development or I'm bound by it by certain agreements that I have to make with if I was working with someone I have agreements with him under non-disclosure agreements that I wouldn't be able to tell you even if there was okay so I'm only asking to respect that part of it totally yeah and that I would say that that that we would be regardless of whether something was or wasn't being being considered I'd be here anyway understood okay I was just more of trying to get a sense if there was some urgency around it or not so I'm good no it's actually taking us quite a while to get actually get here because again we we did a lot of studying on it because again we feel the same we want to make sure that if we're you know if we're doing it and as as again as I would say to responding back to what Evan said is I did to contract zones the first year I was here and he started giving me really dirty looks that's not the way as a professional planner we don't do things by contract zone constantly so I have to look at alright I agree with him it's just those were things that we needed to I was trying to resolve those particular cases I was resolving problems that had that I inherited and that was a way to fix it so my point is we don't like to as a community development we don't like to develop by by contract zone other questions I have a question on this little map I take it that these numbers here refer to the amount of acreage correct yes okay and so 30,000 square feet you said was 2/3 of an acre that's know that the ones that are obviously bigger than that could accommodate this type of use if we correct the those those numbers on here are the ones that that we looked at that said theoretically these are the ones that could meet that criteria and all fairness if we felt that if we had 20 Lots downtown that all met the criteria maybe we need to go back and rethink it but when we saw a relatively small number of Lots that could conceivably be redeveloped we thought that we were on the right the right path thank you yes ma'am other comments I do have one going back to the comp plan so again there wasn't anything specific that we talked about in those two and a half years one thing that really jumped out at me and Evan mentioned this one of the two things that that may apply as far as strategies is the walkability aspect to the downtown and trying to encourage people to get downtown get out of their vehicles walk around so I I just don't in my mind I don't see a drive-through as as encouraging more of a walkable community and I'm just not sure again that the bank those examples the pharmacy they don't have big menu boards so I see a drive-through restaurant for food purposes I just see that in my opinion in a different light than than a pharmacy it was just a window and you know you're adding signage you're adding lighting you know a whole other aspect so I I don't equate those thing all the same things I see Dunkin Donuts traffic I look at other facilities around town and you see the queues behind there I I'm just not sure that this in again my opinion that this meshes with what we talked about for for trying to develop a walkable community but mr. chair can I respond to that yes please do I just I think that Evan and I have had several really good positive conversations along that's those same lines and I think that my point I think what you're missing is that I believe that the process will take care of that in that if it's not if it's not a rather than saying the industry that's a pretty broad brush by saying that no matter what it is for a restaurant it's never going to it's always going to have large queuing well that's not true there they're all different depending on what that particular use is what I'm asking is take a different view of it and allow those numbers that that that tell you what those those numbers that are being generated are if those numbers are too high so that's having a negative impact on the walkability don't allow it that's what should happen and I would support that so I'm just saying it's a different way of thinking of it don't think of it as the as the as the the industry but think of it as the impact and let the you know let that process work hey that's all I'm trying to say it as missing the point you know we all have opinions okay we had opinion point or I you know I just I'm trying to figure out where this mess yep very good thank you I am gonna open this up now so please step up to the mic state your name and your thoughts on the matter after listening that my name is John Tozer and I own that building next door so let me give you a little background on myself I was born in Bangor 1956 I was then raised in Orono for the remainder of my life went to or no schools and my wife and I just a few years ago said well let's get ready to retire and I said Wow one of those banks would love to see this change to make or know a better place something more visible something that when the parents came to town they said Oh 1956 instead of they got a Starbucks not to say that that's what was gonna be there but let me just say that that is on the line that there's a possibility that you can say I have the walkability I have a nice pad site I have Starbucks it's in a community that looks nice and it does have a drive up and it does increase your traffic so what I'm getting to is I've owned that for two years bought it for its public knowledge for whatever hundreds of thousands it cost and I paid twenty thousand dollars worth of taxes on it for the past two years so that I could sit here and look you in the face and say I think this is good for Arnall that's my true purpose in life my true purpose in life if it were Laura and not an emotional bye she was said let's retire go to Florida and the or no fend for itself but then I had a discussion with a large Canadian marijuana dealer about a month ago and said if the state allows it I'll buy that from you I'm from Arnold and I can't even imagine coming down the street and seeing Greenleaf on the side that building and having be a marijuana sales point but you've got a captive audience get the whole University of Maine sitting there so I get here and I sit and I think what is best warning so I said I don't want a Dunkin Donuts I don't want McDonald's downtown but a nice classy Starbucks and if you I would love to have you go online and take a look at some of the Starbucks buildings that have made all across the country that are in little malls and they're in big places like the Bangor mall and they're in little kiosks they're all over they fit whatever bill you need and I think Starbucks is willing to do something good for it's gonna cost Laura and I lost my wife by the way it's gonna cost Laura a lot of money to do it it would be a lot better for Laura and I just to walk away and sell it so as a citizen of a Wornall having lived here for 62 years of my life gone away to dental school gone away to the University of Maine floor Institute technology having done all that and coming back and say what can we do that's good for Marnell I would love to see a pad out front with lights I'd like to see palm trees out there too but I know that's not gonna happen but at least something out there that says yeah or no is walkable and we have a Starbucks and we have Pat's pizza if you want 50s you can go to Pat's have a nose my cousin's husband owns it you can go to Burt's and get some wine you can go across the street in three different directions and get food and beer tomorrow's become the beer capital of the state of Maine with three of you know large beer manufacturers so I guess what I'm saying is an individual owns that is that you guys really have a choice and I've held on up for two years but I'm not gonna hold on much longer and when I went to Dave I said Dave what is it the owner really wants I don't want that I don't want him at Donnell's I don't want a Kyra before you seconds lining up like Dunkin donut so I said what is it that Wornall could use here and still pay for the building so that I can go away and retire maybe another 10 years when Matthews out of school so Matthews my 16 year old so I guess in a way I'm a little bit selfish I'm selfish in the fact that I want what's best for this community always have always will I want you guys to make a choice you guys and ladies I'm sorry I don't mean to exclude you I guess I think of you affectionately also but I want you to think of what you want and what is best Warren I think everyone's seen the same thing everyone's on the same page so how do we get it done you've already got two Dunkin Donuts in or no one in whole town I think there's plenty of those around to cover Dunkin Donuts I do feel bad for the corner coffee shop down there and I feel bad for Burke I'm gonna burn all my life but I don't think Bert's coffee business is what keeps her going so I'm not I'm not sitting back going yeah I think you know I'm gonna destroy businesses here I don't think I'm gonna do that but I would like to see from an individual standpoint the best use the best payback for me would be a Starbucks restaurant in that spot so are there any Starbucks restaurants that are walk-up as opposed to is a drive-through an essential feature for Starbucks yeah there are and I think you can probably see a lot of those going away to all the ones in the ball mall went away they had a small drive-through one over on Broadway that went away so I think it's I think it's more of a you know they have to have soy people buy $5 cups of coffee like 16 year old can you bring me home a $5 cup of coffee you know Frappuccino it's like yeah I suppose I can you're spoiled and I'm spoiling you so I guess you can and yeah to answer your question there are walk-ups but I think if you want longevity in this community you got to have something that says we'll see seven cars or eight cars or nine cars whatever it is inside that parking lot and then we'll try to figure out a way to get rid of all that traffic so it's not right up onto Main Street close some of those entryways up and make a nice world do people visit Starbucks sort of on a regular basis all day long or are there times like in the morning when they get extra customers it is I think I know where you're going with that question and it will interfere with your traffic in the morning and and when students get out of school all hours of the day community the University of Maine you're gonna have traffic with that but they are I think they're pretty consistent I did ask that question but they are there are some heavy hours and they have believe it or not the the actual 4 to 11 slot is very very busy for the Starbucks in Bangor so I hope they'd answer that question I've got a question which law is it that you own I wasn't sure with that Bank right across the way the bank bill 56 ok and and I keep swallowing every time he says is the three cores of maker cuz I'm thinking is it three course maker and I'm thinking uh and then the other thing that concerns me as an individual owner is that you're putting a restriction and they have to have traffic study I'm not opposed to traffic study I'm opposed to the ten to twelve thousand dollars a cost to do a traffic study so I look at that as a in emotional buy and I keep looking at my wallet going we could have been retired going to floor so yes that's a good question the comments questions thank you other other comments hi I'm Laurie oh sure I live on Mayo Street I'm also a town councillor and so I've only been a town councillor for a few months that this came up to the Town Council and the request was could we have send this to the to you guys to talk about whether we'd change so that if people wanted to do something like this they would have the option and the planners suggested that you'd have to have a traffic study and so we thought well we don't want to know under this idea of economic element we don't want to curtail economic development but I can tell you I I just think it's ludicrous to have any more traffic on that intersection and I used to use the Camden National Bank because to pay some people who work for me I could direct deposit into their bank account and I didn't really ever like doing that because of coming out onto Main Street I didn't like using the the drive-through so I don't like pulling out of that parking lot even now when I park to come to these meetings I just think it's very awkward and I didn't know what it was that the owner of the property wanted to do that was generating this so I'm glad I came to the meeting just to find that out as a citizen and it's Starbucks is in urban areas where there's no parking at all and they're mobbed all day long so it's probably a really good retirement plan even if there's no parking and the nest doesn't have any parking and it's been busy all day long and the the Mill Street store is actually seems to be having an uptick in business I think or knows doing really well and I think whatever happens there could be good for or no good for the person who owns it but as a citizen I think less parking is better for a walkable town I would rather see that be a building with no parking and people would have to figure out that they could park in other places and walk a block or two and enjoy or no that's my personal as a as a whole as a town citizen and the other thing I want to say is that I - imagining in the last couple months as this has been discussed what would I want there and I thought what do we want order to be in the future and I think or no should be the kind of place that has businesses that are model businesses for the community so I have this idea which I already ran by Dave and we haven't talked about it other than my email to him I have this idea that we can have a business that has disabled adults working at it like there's bakeries in the East various cities in the East Coast there's even one in May in southern Maine I think Biddeford may be where you get federal grants and you partner with the owners to do a business that is basically the extension of what we have with the or no unified teams where are our kids who stay in school till they're 21 because they're not quite on the same track as those who go right to college and kids who may never go to college when they become adults don't have many opportunities for working but if we had a business where people came to go to a bakery and the bakery was run partially by people who are disabled adults I think that we do need to bring this back to drive-through as though so anyway that's what I would say there's my pitch there's my statement as a citizen as I think we need less parking spaces in the downtown and I think we leave don't need a drive-thru so there's mine thank you other comments we'll leave the public hearing open and again bring it back to the the board for for comments what we've heard tonight what you think of the comp plan questions for Evan or Dave so I'm just wondering about the traffic you know I I obviously like everyone deal with traffic on the way to work and on the way home and throughout the day in downtown or no and very familiar aware of it but it seems to me that if you have a drive-thru business here it wouldn't really add to the traffic it may change the dynamic for instance I may drive by and swing into Starbucks pick up a cup of coffee and keep going but I don't in my opinion I don't see anybody coming to or know who isn't already coming nor know to go to Starbucks so I don't think it would really that what I think it might do is change the dynamic may be negatively maybe not I don't know it have to be looked at with the traffic study but I just don't see it adding traffic from my perspective I think it the the one possible that is that you'd have all these apartment buildings those students coming up right now they don't they're gonna now potentially come up go through main downtown go get their Starbucks and then we go back through so I do I think the net well I don't know but that would be I could see that happening potentially yeah I mean my biggest concern is what Phil said is it like these models they have for queuing now are not accurate I don't even know every fast-food restaurant I go by it's out in the road I don't even understand I'm like where are all these people why are they all eating this food I won't comment on that but essentially I'm like every one of them McDonald's Wendy's Dunkin Donuts they're all like backed out into the road five six eight cars deep who even waits that long like I'm like oh I see three cars that wouldn't even wait for that but people are waiting you know 20 cars deep and so I just look at that here I'm like how is that possibly gonna work like the Starbucks over by the mall you know you go in there to Toys R Us and it's backed out you know almost into the road so all around the building then back out almost into the road it's and so my biggest concern would be how accurate those queueing models were which is what you discussed is if they're not I don't know if they've caught up with what's going on now or not but it just seems like because if we say yes to this we're not saying yes to this one nice project which sounds like it would be nice we're saying yes to McDonald's Wendy's anything that comes in here is what we're saying yes to and again I listen Evans discussion about contract zones and I agree with that philosophy but my fear was is whether we would open open up a can of worms to something that might not drive with a and that was my question to him as to whether there was another option for a business that might go there that you know for again for a limited number without redoing an ordinance and I understand that the Planning Department the economic development has looked at this I just wasn't sure that it was necessary because we've got one business that has an interest my thoughts I have two comments one is I think that Dave does raise an interesting point about coming up with a process to make these kinds of decisions because you know we hear about Starbucks and some of us might like Starbucks and some of us might prefer Dunkin Donuts and some of us maybe hate both of them so I think one issue is to think about can we come up with some sort of process so that we can have a discussion about something like this where we have rules that everybody's can live with you know how we make a decision and then getting back to this particular question I mean I I just want to raise the thought about the health of the community because none of these things are really good for you and it's not good to go into your car and drive up and get something to eat and continue to drive and eat in your car I mean that's just not it's not healthy and you know obesity is a huge issue in this country and we're all going to pay the price for it as our insurance cut costs go up to pay for all the people that have diabetes and you know obesity related illnesses so I just want to put that little plug in there about community health because I think it's something to think about thank you others what do you think down there anybody I think that we really got to pay attention to the traffic because I live out near the Dunkin Donuts and I bring a gun nailed on going down still what happened more than once there's somebody pulling out of there turning left you know I remember when they when we issued the permit we wanted it to be no left-hand turn but they didn't want that and in our infinite wisdom we said okay you could turn left and they do I've been on this board for quite a long time and a lot of the big projects that we've approved have definitely made an impact on traffic there's no question about it so I think that and they when we had traffic studies and we had experts they are telling us well there's no problem this fits all the different models that we have well I don't I don't think they may be chose the right model I think if we approve this and I'm not opposed to not approving it we really need it be some strict language on traffic studies area and and also the you know does it fit with the business was the fit within the side of the community down I agree we need to keep an open mind and we need to think well is this a good project like this gonna open up good projects we want to make sure that it doesn't open up the door it fell said for whatever wants to come in there thank you do you think I just I might then there's a tough corner speaking of this one specifically it's a tough corner of our traffic you get to participate there and you just feel like you need to let somebody out when the light is green and the people behind you and you did mention that you would close off one of the entrances so would you be dumping can we sorry can we get you up there Thanks dancer question is some plumeria planning that actually puts the traffic going down whatever the street is supposedly a right turn only onto Pine Street as you know they're gonna be people that break that law yeah I mean there's an exception to everything that were we would propose to do and but I think working with planning people and making this so that we can close off all but one of those Street X in entrance make this an entryway double wide it in and then have everyone go out Pine Street and then when David was saying you know then we have looked downstream what does that do so all these questions when they say they want to do studies traffic studies I think those will answer part of it will they be perfect I don't think so are we perfect as citizens no not necessarily but we try so we try to do the best you can do to make this thing work and as far as MS OSHA I have a special needs child she's 30 29 years old and I'd love to see something like that occur but it's only 2,400 square feet so you really need a bigger facility I'm afraid but I would love to see that you know I would truthfully but also there's if you can get the grants to stay and keep coming that's another thing too all those things have been looked at and from an economic model yeah from an economic model in a city model I think Dave Milan and your crew is a great crew they're trying to protect door no the best they can and I'm holding on as long as I can to make sure it's done properly so I know it's not gonna always answer your questions but as far as traffic coming back they do have to cross traffic so if they come back from here they have to cross traffic to get in there so if if it's really busy in the morning I think a college student go to Roma Joe's truthfully and I think if if they're trying to get in coming into college then they still got to go back down and either come back up by the church or they've got to go back down by oh thank you so I you know it does pose a lot of problems and I even did think about saying you know to Starbucks why don't you just have a walk-up because they really do they want a pad side out there they want to make it look nice they want to have lawn and they like to have it look pleasant for people that's what they sell they sell sex appeal they're not selling well and they also sell like Lisa said sugar and unhealthiness so I think we have to look at all those things too you know I I tell my son when I see these things how many of those a week do you really want to put in your body yeah it's a lot of sugar but that is a human choice and that's one that we make I love McDonald's french fries I give up but I don't go there but once a month per McDonald's my trying to get the small and then I go to the gym and I feel guilty for the next month so there are those things but humans should have the right to make that choice we are after all individuals and hopefully health insurance is going to be absolutely free for us at some point well thanks so back to back to Drive thrus so you know we have proposed ordinance language we've heard from a few of the residents that have come in and I need to know more questions and then how we're going to proceed to mate so I mean yes there are some strict standards and I'm I'm an engineer I mean you have to base assumptions there's a you know traffic manual there's the that's how you have to go about that I you know the fact is is that you know some of some of them we miss the boat so they have concerns there I you know my bigger concern is whether that's that's what we want for downtown or no drive-through restaurants I'm wrestling with that I think part of what makes downtown or are no special is that it is a walkable area so much of our whole environment is arranged for the convenience of cars and so here's something that's arranged okay cars still have a lot to say about it which but at least it is walkable and so I hate to see us do something that's going to reduce the walkability and if this is being done if the chief driving force here is this one project then maybe the way even though we don't like contract zones we like contract zones for unique situations that are very different than other situations in the same to say we really want downtown Orono to be walkable but that's like a very high priority then this would could be a unique situation if we make an ordinance then we're opening the door to more of them yes so another thing that came up at the at the town council level was that if this is decided on the top the size of the of the property right so that Dave said oh there's only so many properties that this would even apply to because all the properties in downtown or smaller except for these few but that doesn't preclude people from buying two properties making them the same property it's a chair actually this ordinance does because I think Jana must have heard that comment okay Jan and Dave incorporated that it has to be this size as of the date of the effective Oh David assorted so that I think could not consolidate very good thank you well their comments or yeah her if I could just add a few things at night as I said I'm not gonna enter into this rate very much I'd the traffic modeling there was absolutely nothing that would prohibit the Planning Board or staff in fact they can imagine we wouldn't from actually looking at requiring an applicant to look at the actual experience and modify the models based on the actual experience in the or no old town Bangor area so we want to actually survey data from those places and calibrate the model accordingly that certainly has been done in the past as something they could be done here secondly walkability one thing that you might weigh whether it's in a contract zone or a general zone proposal such as this or something else or no is walkable it's one of the most more walkable communities in our downtown is walkable but that stretch and we thought about a lot a lot about this over time that stretch from at least Pine Street to Mill Street both sides because of the loss of the parking some thirty years ago on Main Street because of a couple of land uses such as one next door here and so for that it is not it is not it does not see a lot of pedestrian activity except for those who are moving from somewhere south to downtown the neighborhoods downtown and walking toward the bridge you don't see a lot of the businesses are not retail businesses have not survived there and very well I guess we have a hair salon that's been there not a while but they're now mostly and the nest is right at the corner but and let's you have a auto oriented business like the next door at the convenience store you just don't have much walking so one thing you look at and ask the question is would this would just build some critical mass for more walking out more things to potentially we'll talk to as well as at the same time as you're looking at doesn't create dangers or a hostile environment or are there ways to mitigate that so you just weigh those things I I don't want to I don't think anybody and I've then you're a lot less time than many over for 12 years I've looked at that and and really thought about that we did a facade improvement program we tried to figure out what other uses might go there to increase the pedestrian related activity in that stretch but nothing very little can survive their face in Main Street to the extent you know they they some of them are like very brewpub has turned his back on Main Street and its frontage was really the parking lot because that is not you know I can be out there for three hours in the middle of the day on a nice beautiful day and see four or five people walking that stretch because there's nothing to go to for walk that did you go and if you've got business at the insurance company or at the financial advisor yeah but more you see cars pulling into two Circle K or people parking out back and walking into the back of the of the stores the restaurants there so one thing that's very important and whether this adds to it or detract run or whatever but just way can you build a critical mass of activity that people actually want walk to and that'd be another consideration not just at this location but in general and you know this is not a site plan for mr. toes yours or dr. Tozer project yet but I you know I was but in the brought up it's example so it's perfectly legitimate to be talking the way you are I just remember there was an awful lot of discussion during the comp plan development process about walkability and then where do you start so listening to that description whether it's whether it's a lost cause right now and but you know where do you start to try to improve walkability and again maybe you obtain that critical mass so like creating things that people want to walk to is the first thing you need to do and you know when we talked about trying to get the universal name to locate something down here that's what we're after and other things but you know in the end a lot of things that require that rely on pedestrian traffic given its kind of lonesome nature and to some extent hostile environment but you have to walk by and you know with big wide curb cuts and cars trying to get out on the Main Street discourages it and then once you pass that point Mill Street terrific so and so forth but I think we're focusing way too much now on this compromise one progress exactly it's not about that one property right this is about allowing it in eight locations downtown right and I personally just to cut it kind of short here and not prepared to say yes to this just because I think it's a big deal and I think it could totally change the shape and how the downtown is and I don't want to make it just like okay that is okay and then in three years we've got you know two of these things down there in downtown and we're like oh my gosh what happened I just feel like it's I'm not prepared tonight at least to say yeah let's go with this okay so you're not prepared to say yes does that mean so one of the options was to continue this discussion do we need more information based on what we've heard tonight so that's part of what we need to think about it I I heard the need to justify an ordinate and in my opinion again what you said I don't know that there's a huge need for this other than one property and some seems like that there might be an option but if we're gonna make a decision tonight I need need to hear from others or if I'm not ready to make a decision I want to be able to study the proposed language in the ordinance okay to greater extent than I already have okay no question would everybody I mean a public hearing is not closed I could leave the public hearing open and we can chew on this for a little while you know come back next month and if economic development if you have any new information that's going to help us make a decision anything that you can develop in the next month I don't know what that would be but you see something that I'm not particularly ready to make a decision either and I'd like to digest for a little bit thoughts on that Lisa I'm fine with that okay Krista Geordi said you're not ready Dave not ready Jeremy okay very good I think what we're gonna do is a table this side is there any information again you can think of that we have not received that we that town staff could prepare for us that might help our deliberations well I have to say that I'm intrigued by the process idea that dave has proposed but not being the rest of it maybe if he could explain that add some things to it coming with a flow sheet a visual I don't know something like that might be helpful just because I'm intrigued that if we had a way to think about issues like this it might help us good suggestion I think over time then since I'm in on this board and that as long as Dave but been here a while and the whole process has improved greatly the review and Planning Department has made our job and well Krista too you've been here longer than me yet it's it's gotten just so much better since since I first started so any opportunity to improve a process of this board can make decisions I guess a little bit more educated I think that's a great idea because he does talk about we're not you know try not to think about the content which we I think we do have to consider cuz we're looking at the character of the town right but on the other hand I see where you were going with this and if I had a little more it might be helpful very good so I'm gonna well I need a motion I guess to table this make a motion we table it until next time again second very good any further discussion all right all those in favor hmm good so next month we'll continue the discussion later soon next up other new business I don't know what any you give us a heads up but you know what yeah I wanted to follow up on another item that was you had on your last agenda and that is the extension of time for the edge at ordinate rails cyclin subdivision site plan we did talk with a town attorney and after some very constructive back-and-forth about the language of our ordinance they concluded and put in writing to us and the code enforcement officer has informed the applicant that under current language a strict reading of our current language the three-year clock started again with the new approval okay because the language of that sec yeah that section an extension of time really has two sentences one sense says any site plan approved by the Planning Board Dada Dada Dada shall have a she'll expire unless a permit is pulled within three years second sentence talks about the criteria for extending that three-year deadline the fact that the sentence the first time starts with any site plan any - the attorney said meant that if there was a change to a plan that was so significant that it had to come back to the Planning Board that that would count again the clock would start over Dave and I have talked and we think we ought to propose an amendment to that because you know small amendments shouldn't be because we standards changing their standards have changed in this in this case that the Planning Board should have some authority to say even though there's been a small amendment here the clock that will start over again you need to justify the need for an extension but in any case right now they now have until 2021 to pull a permit and so it's a moot matter for the board thanks for the update now as to May what do we have coming down the pike this at this point we don't I've never been some things that have been discussed but we don't have applications very good next up is a all right I'm on discussion tonight and I did have an item for discussion so typically I think you've been a little bit more lenient with us board and I'm sure it depends on the topic but having a one item agenda for ordinances you know again if we could double up if there's any way I mean this is a volunteer board people are busy so when I first saw this I was wondering whether this was critical to have a meeting to discuss from ordinance revision good discussion here we are sitting you know at 8:20 and we're still here so it seems like it could just justify that at the time we spent this evening but typically if there's a little more flexibility so that that we don't have to come in for for an ordinance discussion if it can be paired with other projects I think that's preferred just a might scare up some other projects yeah maybe there'd be a Starbucks I'm just thinking ordinance revisions there's other things so yes rather than having solenoid action is mr. chairman yes is if the only item on the agenda in June in May would be continued discussion on this to make a wreck there's there is the thing that the council's asked for recommendation and so it's you know they would like that to be relatively timely this you know so but you tell us whether you're your board and you can decide whether to unless something comes in the last the next week so that that's at the start of this we're already tabeling this so I am gonna ask the board thought of that if it's now one item on the agenda so typically I'd I don't know that we need to meet every time for for ordinance revisions I you know usually we tack these on but if there's some other project that we're gonna review so that has been typical over time so but but here we are we've chosen to table this what are your thoughts for a May meeting or would people want to push it back till June with I guess the hope that maybe there's something else thoughts on that well normally it would be well it is the third Wednesday which is June 20th I in fact will not be in town I didn't know I'd be fulfilling this role and I've got other plans that week but Dave could handle it could step into this position or maybe the town will have a planner on board by then or you could move it to the week before doing six if you skip May you could move it to Wednesday doing six when I will be around something like that so much if we don't have May that would be fine too because we can still meet our advertising deadlines that way say the last thing again you just said if we move the June meeting ahead a week and skip the main meeting we can still meet our advertising deadlines mom so we could do it that way all right do we want to meet in me that's the question yeah I was looking at cuz I'm gonna be away in June but of course I can't remember which week now so this is I I have I can meet in May where June or both Krista I'm a month offering you wanna meet my didn't do either one okay say mm-hmm I don't like meeting any more than necessary but I do think where we've been asked by the council to review this and we have agreed basically agreed to review with just one item tonight we've agreed to table it kind of puts us in a little bit of a commitment to actually get back to them in a timely manner so I can meet both times and I'm okay going either way but I think it I think it's on us basically to review it later yeah I can meet the normal Wednesday I can't meet two second okay so May is okay okay me it was okay with me I agree with Jeremy's comments all right we're meeting and make nice point Jeremy yeah thanks Judy all right yeah last up a German and signing of my Lars for the discussion you